ITBs are generally known more for their throttle response and sound instead of big power. That being said, the “wall” at 8000 could be due to a multitude of things, from the head package (cams, ports, chambers), to exhaust pairings or primary sizes. My guess is you guys need a biger cam with more duration for the flow requirements of the ITBs. EDIT: Going back to the engine build video, the cams used are the Drag Cartel 003.2 cams, and the dyno chart on their website shows peak at 8000 RPM. The Hoonigan Skunk2 K24 10K RPM build used Skunk2 Ultra 2 camshafts. (EDIT2) The drag 003.2 specs: Intake: 13.8 mm Lift / 254 Duration @ .050 Exhaust: 13.2 mm Lift / 250 Duration @ .050 The S2 Ultra 2 specs: Intake - Lift: .560"/ Duration 270° @ 1mm Exhaust - Lift: .535"/ Duration 270° @ 1mm Thats a big difference in duration 254/250 vs 270/270… (EDIT3) Corrected the Skunk2 duration @ 1mm lift (EDIT 4) Converted cam specs for @dooby1445 to show I’m not a caveman: The drag 003.2 specs: Intake: 13.8 mm Lift / 254 Duration @ 1.27mm Exhaust: 13.2 mm Lift / 250 Duration @ 1.27mm The S2 Ultra 2 specs: Intake - Lift: 14.224mm / Duration 270° @ 1mm Exhaust - Lift: 13.589mm / Duration 270° @ 1mm
Just to restate what was already said in the video: we're not super impressed with the power the car made, but making horsepower on small, NA engines is all about finding the perfect recipe for flow. Nothing on the exhaust side has been optimized yet, and we have a lot of brains to pick in the all-motor ITB community about what the best combo is for power. Here, we just wanted to get the car running and driving. Can't wait to revisit the dyno with more of a game plan to make power.
with the ITB's you need to look at pulse timing between the exhaust and intake, you may find playing with trumpet lengths as well as ex primary lengths may where your extra power will be hidden, it might be worth putting a single throttle manifold with longer runners to see what it does to the power.... these are things i have played with when converting to ITB's because they generally dont make the power initially you think they will....you have to find it
And if Andy is going to build headers for it bigger isn't always better, keep your primary tubes down in diameter to keep the exhaust velocity up.... 1 3/4" stepped up to 1 7/8" and I would think about 24" long to the collector 4-1
I like how this video shows that not all Dyno runs or engine swaps are a success like RUclips conveys. It’s way more interesting seeing you guys trying to troubleshoot why the engine isn’t making as much power compared to watching another 1000hp dyno run video on RUclips
That’s it right there. I’m so much less interested in the next ultra fast RUclips build. That’s cool too don’t get me wrong. But as a dude who drives a 350Z, I’m much less interested in annihilating the 1/4 mile or high speed highway runs as I am a well developed dynamic streetcar build. There’s just more character there lol.
the resonance length of the ITBs needs to be tuned in sync with the cam duration at a certain RPM where you want to peak; you want the pulse generated by the valves shutting to bounce back and fourth in the ITBs and return just before the next close of the valve. Ideally less bounces (longest possible pipes) gives you more of the effect.
Its worth adjusting the intake runner length for sure- But hed be chasing a single digit for HP here. He more than likely is just being limited by his cams. Theyre drag cartels "street" cams with only 254/250 duration. Theyre mild aimed at meaking peak power by 8k rpms.
Longer pipes are better for low end torque. The longer the pipe the longer the travel time. If anything they would need to be shorter, but most likely a cam duration issue.
@chippyjohn1 Most ITB kits far cars are limited by packaging, and so are shorter than they should be. In order to not hit the shock tower or require a hole in the hood, ITBs for the K usually have super short runners like a sport bike. Most tests I've seen of trumpet length favor the longest ones you can possibly fit. The ITB kit for NC Miatas uses curved trumpets facing forward, something like 2 feet of length from.the valve to the trumpet end, and that kit makes 225bhp at 7,500 with pretty minimal non-VTEC cams. Ben's ITBs are less than half that length, which says to me that they want like 14,000rpm. Obviously the cams and the exhaust will have gone to sleep long before that ever happens. But the point is, all this stuff is dependent on resonance and timing. An engine like this has to be treated like a 2-stroke. Bulk flow is secondary to resonance timing. The exhaust and the intake must match the RPM target, and the cams must not get in their way. Most importantly, you have to at least know what you're working with in terms of length and resonance timing. Simplistic ideas like "good" or "big" have little value at 10k rpm.
@@I_know_what_im_talking_about And that's how someone should state their opinion, some people say everyone else is wrong and dumb whereas what they think is just the best/only answer. Mad respect to you 👍
@@I_know_what_im_talking_about I think longer stacks sound better there is a different in sound depending on length and such plus its in a metal garage so yeah its gonna be some earrape
Double check valve lash, after getting my head redone with DC 2.2’s we were struggling to make power every hit it started making less power(got all the way down to 185 at one point), so i left it at my tuners shop and he re set valve lash and ended up making 226whp on a mustang dyno which are the lower reading dynos. Previous to the cam install it made 212whp My setup: K20a2 -54mm ITB’s -Skunk2 megapowerRR header and 3” exhaust -DC 2.2 cams -E85 -Supertech dual valve springs w/ titanium retainers -Stock bottom end -Still running power steering and a/c
The ITBs are rad as hell but please try running it with a single throttle manifold and intake tube at some stage, if nothing else it'll at least tell you if the ITB config/setup is the reason for the power issues. This series has been really interesting so far and I'm super keen to see you get to the bottom of what's going on here and finally perfect that engine setup.
I agree. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve only seen ITBs outperform across the power range with higher (13.5 and up) compression and some sort of race fuel like m1. They sound cool though…
Yeah that’s what I was thinking, take off the itb and do what they have been troubleshooting with and stick some of the OEM stock variables back on like they did with the exhaust header. Run it with the OEM spec then one by one swap bolt on mods and see what’s improving the numbers
Hmm, I think they need to do some basic engine maths (inlet velocity, exhaust velocity and the way that's matched to the cam profiles etc) before just trying random parts! The maths (or math in American English) will show guidelines of the cam profile required, inlet runner diameter and length, exhaust runner diameter and length etc required, before then dialling it more precisely with trial and error on the dyno. No race team would try to design an engine without doing the maths on it. 🙂
@@ziglol "Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve only seen ITBs outperform across the power range with higher (13.5 and up) compression and some sort of race fuel like m1" Obviously this is a 4age- but ruclips.net/video/lnGvIfwjYis/видео.html This is a great video, and great channel to watch. guy has been "Testing" different things on the dyno for ages, some of them are funny things, but many are serious as he looks to improve his engine. This video is a good "milestone" video, showing how the engine responds to various popular changes, and then his extreme ones as hes pushed the limits. of note in this video: He goes from various stock manifolds, to an ITB set up, and shows the power change. Its not insignificant, and hes not running crazy compression- 10.3:1. The itbs arent the problem with this guys set up. Though the trumpet length may be worth checking into (Fun plug in again: that guy i linked has one with him testing numerous length runners for the ITBs to find the ideal length for his engine), the biggest restriction is more than likely, his cams. Hes running 003.2 "Street" cams from drag cartel. Like the name implies- theyre street cams, and rated to make peak power by 8k rpms. This is undoubtedly the biggest restriction for making more power. He needs more cam- plain and simple.
There are plenty of ways to build just for insane power numbers. When I had my B18C1 swapped Civic, I obviously wanted power but the joy I found was in light weight and lots of revs. I didn’t get into seriously wild setups, but I rebuilt the block with higher compression and she revved to 9000, made peak somewhere around 8300. That car wasn’t about making 400 HP, but she weighed less than she did stock (even with several hundred extra pounds with the swap), and she revved and made amazing noises. If I ever did it again, I’d go for that kind of setup over tons of power. And I really respect what Ben is doing here for the same reasons.
The most important thing when building a naturally aspirated engine is pulses and harmonics. There are calculators online that show you the ballpark of intake and exhaust lengths for your cam setup.
Motorcycle Tech here, What you got is what i call a "BIG GULP" build, wack open the butterfies and it takes in a huge gulp of air. great for bottom end numers but you lose needed velocity at higer RPM's. You need the "BIG SUCK" to get the better flow at topend. velocity is everything. Looks like you would benift from secondary ecu controlled butterfiles and secondary fuel injectors. TL:DR Big suck vs the big gulp. BIgblock enduro single: Big gulp Highreving superbike twin: Big suck Play around with the exhaust all you want, that intake is gonna make this car a pain to drive on the street
It was my understanding, I may be wrong, but 4-1 headers work better for higher rpm power, while tri-y headers are better for midrange power with a sacrifice of high rpm power? Maybe try a 4-1 header.
I can’t believe they didn’t AUTOMATICALLY opt for a 4-1 header with the initial plans to rev that high. That’s like basic high revving Honda engine 101. 🤦🏻♂️
Ignition, cam timing, inlet and exhaust port flow, exhaust flow and fuel and air mixture is all about n/a engines. I'm all n/a myself, never really been into boost as I love ITB bark lol. I love the Vtec crossover btw, insane bark 😍😍
I love how you guys eclipse the truth behind building awesome cars. Not everything works out how you plan but it’s the journey and knowledge gained from it the makes it worth while. Great video
Tbh I thought waaay more power. I know Cosworth made some Duratec motors with ITB go up to 250-300 depending on the capacity. But I’m sure you’ll get it where you want it to be and you got a great team to help you! Awesome work guys! 👍🏻
The K20A never raced in an ITB class of touring cars IIRC (i.e., super touring), but even with a single throttle body under Super 2000 rules, Neal Brown Engineering K20A engines make 280bhp (at the engine) on a 8500rpm rev limit. Tegiwa have a video on their ex-BTCC Integra Type R race car. 🙂 Sadly the lack of basic engine maths and engineering calculation before building this engine seems to have bit Ben!
Esslinger makes a bunch of the racing duratec motors now. 260whp/220tq would be easily accomplished in a 2.5 for less than 8k if you go 13:1 compression
In the process of chasing this same goal with my S2000. I've got the ITB's on an essentially stock F20. I hit 217 to the wheel. Cams are in my future. My goal is also 250 to the wheels. Excellent series of videos. Sounds AMAZING over 9k!
Man...I chose the wrong career. This seems so fun. I'm sure there's a lot of frustrating moments we don't see but it's just so cool to build stuff that like.
I own a 00 s2000, Look into ballade sport's header. I have seen and talked to a couple people and they seem to make the most power N/A if you can run it on the K20. I would also look into maybe even a more aggressive cam setup then what you currently have If you're looking to make power past 8k rpm(which is crazy, I know). There's definitely more power on the table with this setup.
Really loved the series. I feel like I'm living vicariously through the builds since I would do similar things; especially wanting a 10k rpm screamer driver and not caring about the power. Meanwhile, I'm just starting on my TRD front strut brace for my GR86 and hoping that adds the rigidity up front that I'm looking for since So Cal roads aren't getting any better, and I swear roads are wearing out faster because EVs are already heavy and SUVs/trucks dominate the market. This S2000 build is something I would do with lottery money.
I have a k24 bottom end with 12:5.1 pistons. Stock rsx type s head, rbc intake. Running on e made 235 to the wheels. Definitely think you could squeeze some more power out of that setup. Something isn’t right.
@@chrisvera841 ya, e85 has an insane octane rating, so for FI builds ot makes it so you don't have to worry about knock as much, meaning you can run more aggressive settings
E85 doesn't do much on an NA motor. And ITB's aren't meant for huge gains in power. They are meant for better throttle response which is why he stated ITB's are heavily used for racing applications.
i have read before that going with the biggest itbs you can find isn't the way to go, and for each head and runner size there is always the "right" size itb that you should go with for the most power
Time to call Spoon good video hope you guys get it sorted out. I'd venture to say its a combo of the ITB with other parts as others have already stated.
I know your pain and i understand the optimisation needed for high revving engine. Had done the same thing in my honda but its only a D15. Its revving to almost 9k and a lot of carful thinking and workarounds had to be done to make power that high. I would suggest maybe a different cam. One that has a bit bigger lift and a lot longer duration because at that high rpm engine needs to breathe as best as it can and cam will do just that.
Both this and Civic have power on the table in the Valve Job. Specifically the seat angles. I was not surprised when the civic was down on power last year after seeing how the valve job was done. The K is an amazing flowing head stock and that equates to some very high efficiency of flow past the valve and seat requirements. I've been part of back to back flow bench tests where a gain of 10+ cfm was had with just using a different valve seat multi angle cutter. Have also seen losses just as big when it's wrong.
@@RollingRoadEFI rule of thumb is 1 hp per CFM. So a sub par valve job will absolutely hurt power and an excellent one will increase it. Especially at high rpm when the most amount of air is trying to move through the engine
Tuning ITBs on F20s and K20s has always been a pain in the ass with low returns. Almost every build has been track only for that reason. Hit up Js racing if you have questions.
I was wondering whether a stock port head would hold them back with cams and ITBs when they first put it on. I'm not an expert or anything, but the only advantage ITBs have is massive flow. If you're running them on a stock head, it doesn't seem worth it.
@@samnolte749 Unfortunately with all motor you have to do alot of work to the head and have non restrictive valves, and you need alot of compression. I wouldnt have even used Itbs, they just suck for street use. I would have went with minimum 13:5 compression. Most likely if I was going all in it would be 14.5:1 to 15:1. above that its very nock sensetive even on ethanol.
Honestly I wonder why he committed to ITB's. Like if he knew he was going to be throwing in a K20 and that the lack of torque would be less than ideal then why not supercharge it?
@@seagullsays5831 he's building a high rpm NA 4cyl with a usable amount of power on the street for the character and sound of it, listen to what he says in the videos
@@seagullsays5831 Oh 100% it should. It appears they didn't pay much attention to the cams they chose (the description says peak at 8000) or the ITB runners they chose, which are too big to generate the velocity they need at those rpms. They also didn't do any head massaging. So from what I can tell, there wasn't enough homework done on the build choices, and this is the result
A friend of mine faced something like this power restriction and it turned out that he needs an airbox for the ITBs to have a better airflow. After that he gained some power. Great content!
I have the same build, similar starting point, and similar goals. Thanks for the inspiration- mine has been 3 years going and yours is getting done way faster 😢
Don't worry, taking your time often results in more detail work being done. Also, I assume you do most of the work yourself which in and of itself it admirable to say the least. (Obviously, no offence to Ben and the boys!!) So take pride, and when the time comes to roll around like a 'baller', the enjoyment will be even greater!! ;) I recently started a new build and I recon it will take close to 4 or 5 years to finish. Most of the work will be done by me and my father. Whereas paint, cage and ECU tune will be outsourced when the time and money is there. (The build is complete with engine swap, bigger brakes and the such...) Close to Pro-Touring to say the least. Then I look around and see whole teams do a similar build in just a few months :O .....
I agree, I’ve raced motorcycles and what I’ve realized is that even though HP is great to have. I’d rather have lower HP for better power delivery and handling. I’ve got my 350z tuned and specifically talked with my tuner with the understanding that I want usable power and torque to balance out my handling. No I race at VIR and some other tracks and the plan works well.
instead of headers try longer intake tubes for itb. and i noticed the muffler has wrong diameter. tubing for n/a k engines is ideal 2,5" we have simmilar setup on our racing engine 300hp k20 and can rev 9900rpm after a lot of dyno runs we switched back into skunk 2 intake manifold and its more usable this way. engine is in Noma M20 SC racecar and it won a lot of national hillclimb events
reminds me of a teaser for a Sport Compact Car feature car: “we can’t tell you what we’re doing to it next month, but it rhymes with ‘splindividual flottle toddies’” RIP SCC
Weird man, my buddy built a all motor same engine with itb’s, in his garage on his spare time, when we brang it to the dyno it made around 240-250 whp but that was first trip he said he has to figure some stuff out and go back for more power! Maybe it’s his cams not sure!
European and Japanese K20A from the EP3 Type R made 200hp originally and you could bump up the HP even more just by changing cams, valve springs and a tune for example. Check out for a European K20A head from the Type R as it has better flow. 👍
ITB's really benefit from resonance tuning, particularly Heimholtz resonance. -Caveman explanation time (TL;DR): Intake valve closes, air still have momentum. Air slam against intake valve backside, it pressurize. pressure shoot back out trumpet. Once pressure wave exit trumpet, ITB at partial vacuum. Nature no likey vacuum; air (positive pressure) rush back down ITB. If timed right, positive pressure wave reach backside of intake valve as it open. Extra air enter engine while valve is not full open, then engine give atmosphere the good suck. This cause increase in Volumetric Efficiency, and more powah. -Non-cavemman explanation: ITB's work best when they're treated more like a 2 stroke expansion chamber/exhaust pipe than a standard intake manifold. Just like an expansion chamber in a 2-stroke, there's a certain RPM range where the dynamics of the pulsing pressure waves (explained above) are timed correctly in relation to engine speed, and cause a natural supercharging effect. This phenomenon is directly influenced by 2 things: real-time air momentum/density (measured in real time seconds and not in relation to crankshaft degrees), and physical runner length. This is one of the reasons why the LaFerrari has infinitely variable length intake runners (which are ITB's). Those runners utilize stepper motors and a linkage to extend or retract the trumpets closer to and further away from the intake port, and have the adjustable portion of the trumpet moving inside the port-side portion of the ITB as 2 sleeves; the upper/adjustable portion slides in and out of the lower portion, allowing for very finite control of overall/effective runner length. -The general rule of thumb is that the higher the RPM, the shorter runner length you want; and that's true for both intake and exhaust runners because of the real-world amount of time the air charge has to enter and exit the engine. With that being said, on multiple cylinder engines, that's not always the case due to pressure wave spillover from one trumpet to the ones adjacent to it. -Which is why it bugs me that no one has ever considered attempting a motor-actuated exhaust header (at least in an experimental setup) that adjusts the lengths of the header primaries throughout the RPM range and makes them shorter as the RPM climbs.
Hey Guys! I don't know how far in the process you are, but... Ex-formula SAE member here, i designed the exhaust manifold and helped design the intake for our formula car. The low numbers shown are a result of the components being thrown at the car without considering the effect they have to each other. The right setup can be calculated in regards to the exhaust header design as well as intake trumpet length, which will greatly affect power output and delivery. I would have shared my documents i used for the calculations but it's in french. Hit me up if you want to know more about it!
I spent years playing with race cars on ITBs. The biggest factor is head flow. As power is dropping off at 8k ish you are either hitting the flow limit of the ports (in / ex or both) OR your not physically letting enough air in so running out of cam/valve. I suspect its a combo of both. I would defo be looking at cam.
Honda bois in shambles, everyone knows K20s make 500whp unopened 😂
@@z3dz 2AR chads rise up
With a turbo...not ITB's. If they think that, they've retarded more than their timing.
they made stock fbo power with big mods... What is your point ?
vtec bros coping so hard rn
@@CL9k24a3I think he’s saying that a lot of the K20 guys were expecting 250+ but were completely surprised.
ITBs are generally known more for their throttle response and sound instead of big power. That being said, the “wall” at 8000 could be due to a multitude of things, from the head package (cams, ports, chambers), to exhaust pairings or primary sizes. My guess is you guys need a biger cam with more duration for the flow requirements of the ITBs.
EDIT: Going back to the engine build video, the cams used are the Drag Cartel 003.2 cams, and the dyno chart on their website shows peak at 8000 RPM. The Hoonigan Skunk2 K24 10K RPM build used Skunk2 Ultra 2 camshafts.
(EDIT2)
The drag 003.2 specs:
Intake: 13.8 mm Lift / 254 Duration @ .050
Exhaust: 13.2 mm Lift / 250 Duration @ .050
The S2 Ultra 2 specs:
Intake - Lift: .560"/ Duration 270° @ 1mm
Exhaust - Lift: .535"/ Duration 270° @ 1mm
Thats a big difference in duration 254/250 vs 270/270…
(EDIT3)
Corrected the Skunk2 duration @ 1mm lift
(EDIT 4)
Converted cam specs for @dooby1445 to show I’m not a caveman:
The drag 003.2 specs:
Intake: 13.8 mm Lift / 254 Duration @ 1.27mm
Exhaust: 13.2 mm Lift / 250 Duration @ 1.27mm
The S2 Ultra 2 specs:
Intake - Lift: 14.224mm / Duration 270° @ 1mm
Exhaust - Lift: 13.589mm / Duration 270° @ 1mm
just to make the comment more visible
Nailed it
My guy 💯
This is actually big advice
Just to make the comment more visible #2
Just to restate what was already said in the video: we're not super impressed with the power the car made, but making horsepower on small, NA engines is all about finding the perfect recipe for flow. Nothing on the exhaust side has been optimized yet, and we have a lot of brains to pick in the all-motor ITB community about what the best combo is for power. Here, we just wanted to get the car running and driving. Can't wait to revisit the dyno with more of a game plan to make power.
I know you guys will figure it out. Every build takes time. Thank you for the years of uploads and content. Gavin, uk.
What does a std k20 produce on that dyno? Comparing to other dynojet inflated numbers isnt the best.
To paraphrase the great Obi Wan: "You will soon be back, and with greater numbers".
My face actual lights up when I see a new Gears and Gasoline video
@@garagecedric fbo on that dyno is around 200 I believe
with the ITB's you need to look at pulse timing between the exhaust and intake, you may find playing with trumpet lengths as well as ex primary lengths may where your extra power will be hidden, it might be worth putting a single throttle manifold with longer runners to see what it does to the power.... these are things i have played with when converting to ITB's because they generally dont make the power initially you think they will....you have to find it
ex primary lengths and intake lengths are critical on japanese twincams when you are building performance engines like yours
And if Andy is going to build headers for it bigger isn't always better, keep your primary tubes down in diameter to keep the exhaust velocity up.... 1 3/4" stepped up to 1 7/8" and I would think about 24" long to the collector 4-1
Garage 4AGE channel does a myriad of testing.
I mean ITB was just for sake ITBs. Didn't even make sense to make a street daily s2k with itbs
i was about to say this
Thanks!
I like how this video shows that not all Dyno runs or engine swaps are a success like RUclips conveys. It’s way more interesting seeing you guys trying to troubleshoot why the engine isn’t making as much power compared to watching another 1000hp dyno run video on RUclips
That’s it right there. I’m so much less interested in the next ultra fast RUclips build. That’s cool too don’t get me wrong.
But as a dude who drives a 350Z, I’m much less interested in annihilating the 1/4 mile or high speed highway runs as I am a well developed dynamic streetcar build. There’s just more character there lol.
Andy seems like a very honest fellow. I like him.
He is, he's good people.
NPC comment
His knowledge is insane and every video I've seen him in, you can tell he is honest and a hard worker. Not a lot of people are like that anymore.
❤ thank you guys!
I love that you guys chose the spoon style hardtop. Its so sexy on the s2000
That's actually what came with the car, but I think they'll keep it
Man, I can't believe people actually like that thing. Not a good shape for me at all.
Props to them for putting out an honest video even when the power was underwhelming. I appreciate this video more than big power. Thanks guys
the resonance length of the ITBs needs to be tuned in sync with the cam duration at a certain RPM where you want to peak; you want the pulse generated by the valves shutting to bounce back and fourth in the ITBs and return just before the next close of the valve. Ideally less bounces (longest possible pipes) gives you more of the effect.
Its worth adjusting the intake runner length for sure- But hed be chasing a single digit for HP here.
He more than likely is just being limited by his cams. Theyre drag cartels "street" cams with only 254/250 duration. Theyre mild aimed at meaking peak power by 8k rpms.
Longer pipes are better for low end torque. The longer the pipe the longer the travel time. If anything they would need to be shorter, but most likely a cam duration issue.
@chippyjohn1 Most ITB kits far cars are limited by packaging, and so are shorter than they should be. In order to not hit the shock tower or require a hole in the hood, ITBs for the K usually have super short runners like a sport bike. Most tests I've seen of trumpet length favor the longest ones you can possibly fit. The ITB kit for NC Miatas uses curved trumpets facing forward, something like 2 feet of length from.the valve to the trumpet end, and that kit makes 225bhp at 7,500 with pretty minimal non-VTEC cams. Ben's ITBs are less than half that length, which says to me that they want like 14,000rpm. Obviously the cams and the exhaust will have gone to sleep long before that ever happens. But the point is, all this stuff is dependent on resonance and timing. An engine like this has to be treated like a 2-stroke. Bulk flow is secondary to resonance timing. The exhaust and the intake must match the RPM target, and the cams must not get in their way. Most importantly, you have to at least know what you're working with in terms of length and resonance timing. Simplistic ideas like "good" or "big" have little value at 10k rpm.
That vtec cracking open damn is loud lol
I can’t believe they didn’t have Ear Pro on, my ears would be ringing all day
I think it sounded bad, honestly. VTEC crack with a proper intake manifold and short ram intake sounds way better, in my opinion. 🤷🏻♂️
@@I_know_what_im_talking_about And that's how someone should state their opinion, some people say everyone else is wrong and dumb whereas what they think is just the best/only answer. Mad respect to you 👍
@@battldogeurmum698 - 😎 much appreciated bro.
@@I_know_what_im_talking_about I think longer stacks sound better there is a different in sound depending on length and such plus its in a metal garage so yeah its gonna be some earrape
Time stamp descriptions are hilarious. Love it lol
I really like this project. Andy and his team is great and funny. And the s2k is just a cool car.
Double check valve lash, after getting my head redone with DC 2.2’s we were struggling to make power every hit it started making less power(got all the way down to 185 at one point), so i left it at my tuners shop and he re set valve lash and ended up making 226whp on a mustang dyno which are the lower reading dynos. Previous to the cam install it made 212whp
My setup:
K20a2
-54mm ITB’s
-Skunk2 megapowerRR header and 3” exhaust
-DC 2.2 cams
-E85
-Supertech dual valve springs w/ titanium retainers
-Stock bottom end
-Still running power steering and a/c
Cant wait to see this duke it out with the MR2 which I absolutely have not forgot about. Crazy that that cheap Camry Hybrid lump makes more power lol
No replacement for displacement
I’m very impressed & envious of that Camry lump
with these power levels, that mr2 has a serious shot.
@@RandyAugustus that mr2 will definitely win right now, 700lbs lighter is huuuge
The ITBs are rad as hell but please try running it with a single throttle manifold and intake tube at some stage, if nothing else it'll at least tell you if the ITB config/setup is the reason for the power issues. This series has been really interesting so far and I'm super keen to see you get to the bottom of what's going on here and finally perfect that engine setup.
I agree. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve only seen ITBs outperform across the power range with higher (13.5 and up) compression and some sort of race fuel like m1. They sound cool though…
Yeah that’s what I was thinking, take off the itb and do what they have been troubleshooting with and stick some of the OEM stock variables back on like they did with the exhaust header. Run it with the OEM spec then one by one swap bolt on mods and see what’s improving the numbers
Hmm, I think they need to do some basic engine maths (inlet velocity, exhaust velocity and the way that's matched to the cam profiles etc) before just trying random parts! The maths (or math in American English) will show guidelines of the cam profile required, inlet runner diameter and length, exhaust runner diameter and length etc required, before then dialling it more precisely with trial and error on the dyno. No race team would try to design an engine without doing the maths on it. 🙂
It's either the ITB's or I saw someone else make a pretty good case for cams.
@@ziglol "Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve only seen ITBs outperform across the power range with higher (13.5 and up) compression and some sort of race fuel like m1"
Obviously this is a 4age- but
ruclips.net/video/lnGvIfwjYis/видео.html
This is a great video, and great channel to watch. guy has been "Testing" different things on the dyno for ages, some of them are funny things, but many are serious as he looks to improve his engine. This video is a good "milestone" video, showing how the engine responds to various popular changes, and then his extreme ones as hes pushed the limits.
of note in this video: He goes from various stock manifolds, to an ITB set up, and shows the power change. Its not insignificant, and hes not running crazy compression- 10.3:1.
The itbs arent the problem with this guys set up. Though the trumpet length may be worth checking into (Fun plug in again: that guy i linked has one with him testing numerous length runners for the ITBs to find the ideal length for his engine), the biggest restriction is more than likely, his cams. Hes running 003.2 "Street" cams from drag cartel. Like the name implies- theyre street cams, and rated to make peak power by 8k rpms.
This is undoubtedly the biggest restriction for making more power. He needs more cam- plain and simple.
There are plenty of ways to build just for insane power numbers. When I had my B18C1 swapped Civic, I obviously wanted power but the joy I found was in light weight and lots of revs. I didn’t get into seriously wild setups, but I rebuilt the block with higher compression and she revved to 9000, made peak somewhere around 8300.
That car wasn’t about making 400 HP, but she weighed less than she did stock (even with several hundred extra pounds with the swap), and she revved and made amazing noises.
If I ever did it again, I’d go for that kind of setup over tons of power. And I really respect what Ben is doing here for the same reasons.
Looking like you need better cams to make hp in the upper rev range.
Thank god for back-to-back S10K videos! Also, thanks for the Saturday morning video again. Weekday vids is not the same thing.
The most important thing when building a naturally aspirated engine is pulses and harmonics. There are calculators online that show you the ballpark of intake and exhaust lengths for your cam setup.
Wow, when the v-tech kicks in it almost sounds like something broke. So clicky/buzzy sounding. He wasn’t kidding when he said it would be loud.
thank god the wait wasn't long
Saturday and Wednesday uploads got us creaming huh
Fr they did not wait lol
Impatient nation 🤣
@@cheesepizza87 i blame my adhd 🤣
Motorcycle Tech here, What you got is what i call a "BIG GULP" build, wack open the butterfies and it takes in a huge gulp of air. great for bottom end numers but you lose needed velocity at higer RPM's. You need the "BIG SUCK" to get the better flow at topend. velocity is everything. Looks like you would benift from secondary ecu controlled butterfiles and secondary fuel injectors.
TL:DR Big suck vs the big gulp.
BIgblock enduro single: Big gulp
Highreving superbike twin: Big suck
Play around with the exhaust all you want, that intake is gonna make this car a pain to drive on the street
That fall off to me looks like cams or valve float. Definitely check those.
Not always the case, the higher rpm the less time air has to get into the engine, this is for N.A. engines. This reduces hp and causes it to fall.
gotta love the VTEC face!!
Whoever makes the titles for the chapters in the video is absolutely hilarious! 😂😂
It was my understanding, I may be wrong, but 4-1 headers work better for higher rpm power, while tri-y headers are better for midrange power with a sacrifice of high rpm power? Maybe try a 4-1 header.
That's part of the plan!
I can’t believe they didn’t AUTOMATICALLY opt for a 4-1 header with the initial plans to rev that high. That’s like basic high revving Honda engine 101. 🤦🏻♂️
My tri-y makes great linear power all across the board. Fantastic piece.
Ignition, cam timing, inlet and exhaust port flow, exhaust flow and fuel and air mixture is all about n/a engines. I'm all n/a myself, never really been into boost as I love ITB bark lol. I love the Vtec crossover btw, insane bark 😍😍
I love how you guys eclipse the truth behind building awesome cars. Not everything works out how you plan but it’s the journey and knowledge gained from it the makes it worth while. Great video
Tbh I thought waaay more power. I know Cosworth made some Duratec motors with ITB go up to 250-300 depending on the capacity.
But I’m sure you’ll get it where you want it to be and you got a great team to help you! Awesome work guys! 👍🏻
The K20A never raced in an ITB class of touring cars IIRC (i.e., super touring), but even with a single throttle body under Super 2000 rules, Neal Brown Engineering K20A engines make 280bhp (at the engine) on a 8500rpm rev limit. Tegiwa have a video on their ex-BTCC Integra Type R race car. 🙂
Sadly the lack of basic engine maths and engineering calculation before building this engine seems to have bit Ben!
Esslinger makes a bunch of the racing duratec motors now. 260whp/220tq would be easily accomplished in a 2.5 for less than 8k if you go 13:1 compression
There’s more power there; excited to watch you find it.
In the process of chasing this same goal with my S2000. I've got the ITB's on an essentially stock F20. I hit 217 to the wheel. Cams are in my future. My goal is also 250 to the wheels. Excellent series of videos. Sounds AMAZING over 9k!
My standard ap1 jap import has 247 as standard, the rest of the world got 237, I was lucky I got the best of the best.
Great car for your first HONDA. I also recently picked up my first Honda S2000 and so far, I'm in love. Enjoy the car brother!
Seems like you've found the max flow on your ports and valves.
1:40 that is the loudest pop I've ever heard! The sounds dreams are made of 🤘🏽
Does the horsepower seem low to anyone else? I know it’s to the wheels but still
There is more rolling resistance since it’s an awd dyno. But yes still seems seriously low…
Man i was thinking the same thing... my b20vtec has 240hp on pumpgas
Yes finally someone else sees it
They can still do plenty to it, so it shouldn't be an issue for now.
@@fitometralla fbo ? idk man many fd2rs from where im from have 270-280whp without ITB.
This is clearly Valvoline's fault, Rotella would never let these numbers fly.
Man...I chose the wrong career. This seems so fun. I'm sure there's a lot of frustrating moments we don't see but it's just so cool to build stuff that like.
That white BMW wagon in the beginning parked next to the ramp…
I own a 00 s2000, Look into ballade sport's header. I have seen and talked to a couple people and they seem to make the most power N/A if you can run it on the K20.
I would also look into maybe even a more aggressive cam setup then what you currently have If you're looking to make power past 8k rpm(which is crazy, I know). There's definitely more power on the table with this setup.
It’s been a while since I commented but I really enjoyed this engine build and looking forward to what you do with the body and interior. Great work.
Really loved the series. I feel like I'm living vicariously through the builds since I would do similar things; especially wanting a 10k rpm screamer driver and not caring about the power. Meanwhile, I'm just starting on my TRD front strut brace for my GR86 and hoping that adds the rigidity up front that I'm looking for since So Cal roads aren't getting any better, and I swear roads are wearing out faster because EVs are already heavy and SUVs/trucks dominate the market. This S2000 build is something I would do with lottery money.
Bens face when the VTEC kicks in Y0 😂👌🏻
Hey guys, put the airbox on the ITBs so you can that intake reversion. They're designed to be run with that.
Man, those valvoline diff fluid bags are amazing
I have a k24 bottom end with 12:5.1 pistons. Stock rsx type s head, rbc intake. Running on e made 235 to the wheels.
Definitely think you could squeeze some more power out of that setup. Something isn’t right.
Subscribed to Andy👌🔥💯
Peak power at 8500rpm with ITB's? And it's only making 211 on E85??? What in God's name has gone wrong here???
Right, plus they only gained like 3whp in E85.
i think that as the car doesnt have forced induction, e85 doesnt have as big of an impact?
@@chrisvera841 ya, e85 has an insane octane rating, so for FI builds ot makes it so you don't have to worry about knock as much, meaning you can run more aggressive settings
E85 doesn't do much on an NA motor. And ITB's aren't meant for huge gains in power. They are meant for better throttle response which is why he stated ITB's are heavily used for racing applications.
Aif flow exhaust isn't made yet so it's had
That's such a beautiful engine build. Looking forward to seeing it reach it's full potential, and for you to have a fun, daily driving S10K!
i have read before that going with the biggest itbs you can find isn't the way to go, and for each head and runner size there is always the "right" size itb that you should go with for the most power
Time to call Spoon good video hope you guys get it sorted out. I'd venture to say its a combo of the ITB with other parts as others have already stated.
Maybe longer trumpets? I know that can have an effect as it straighten's and smooths out the air going in.
My understanding is longer trumpets shifts the power down lower.
@@H3RSHD0G13 I think the trumpets are too large in diameter. Longer trumpets would probably help if they needed to keep the same diameter.
I would say larger and longer duration cams and perhaps equal length headers with pairing
I know your pain and i understand the optimisation needed for high revving engine. Had done the same thing in my honda but its only a D15. Its revving to almost 9k and a lot of carful thinking and workarounds had to be done to make power that high. I would suggest maybe a different cam. One that has a bit bigger lift and a lot longer duration because at that high rpm engine needs to breathe as best as it can and cam will do just that.
Play around with the cams. Sounds epiiicc love the s10k
I freaking love Saturday's and I have to thank this RUclips channel
Yeah, I'm in love with this build!
That's like stock engine power. Hopefully you get it figured out.
Both this and Civic have power on the table in the Valve Job. Specifically the seat angles.
I was not surprised when the civic was down on power last year after seeing how the valve job was done. The K is an amazing flowing head stock and that equates to some very high efficiency of flow past the valve and seat requirements. I've been part of back to back flow bench tests where a gain of 10+ cfm was had with just using a different valve seat multi angle cutter. Have also seen losses just as big when it's wrong.
Very little I think. No?
@@RollingRoadEFI rule of thumb is 1 hp per CFM. So a sub par valve job will absolutely hurt power and an excellent one will increase it.
Especially at high rpm when the most amount of air is trying to move through the engine
@@codysmithmotorsports736 That's statistically significant. Thanks for the info.
Any concern about air flow to itbs ? I’ve seen a boxed up itb setup.
Tuning ITBs on F20s and K20s has always been a pain in the ass with low returns. Almost every build has been track only for that reason. Hit up Js racing if you have questions.
I’m like really concerned with how low that number was for a K series. Let’s hope break in loosens things up and helps.
That's probably the issue. Not breaking it in. Might have fucked something up.
@@Lockwood360 no the rings seating after break in dos not increase hp substantially
@@need_more_lives2974 Yeah sorry guys he's right. There's something missing here.
She is a screamer! 10000 rpm with itbs is just glorious!
Better flowing valves, ported head, higher compression, wider lobe separation.
I was wondering whether a stock port head would hold them back with cams and ITBs when they first put it on. I'm not an expert or anything, but the only advantage ITBs have is massive flow. If you're running them on a stock head, it doesn't seem worth it.
@@samnolte749 Unfortunately with all motor you have to do alot of work to the head and have non restrictive valves, and you need alot of compression. I wouldnt have even used Itbs, they just suck for street use. I would have went with minimum 13:5 compression. Most likely if I was going all in it would be 14.5:1 to 15:1. above that its very nock sensetive even on ethanol.
I'm subscribed to Andy's channel 👌🏼
Biggest complaint about stock S2000 is the lack of torque and you put a K20 instead of K24 in it.
Honestly I wonder why he committed to ITB's. Like if he knew he was going to be throwing in a K20 and that the lack of torque would be less than ideal then why not supercharge it?
@@seagullsays5831 ITBS and High compression to hit HIGH RPM, All that's needed now should be some head tuning to flow better.
@@seagullsays5831 he's building a high rpm NA 4cyl with a usable amount of power on the street for the character and sound of it, listen to what he says in the videos
@@tonymccartney2829 Yeah I understand that, but a built K20 with ITB'S and running on E85 should not be making less power than a stock F20C.
@@seagullsays5831 Oh 100% it should. It appears they didn't pay much attention to the cams they chose (the description says peak at 8000) or the ITB runners they chose, which are too big to generate the velocity they need at those rpms. They also didn't do any head massaging. So from what I can tell, there wasn't enough homework done on the build choices, and this is the result
A friend of mine faced something like this power restriction and it turned out that he needs an airbox for the ITBs to have a better airflow. After that he gained some power. Great content!
Should have 2AR swapped it smh
I really like the titles of the different chapters within this video
02:23 "you clicked on the video for this part"
Damn right! And now to continue watching the rest
I have the same build, similar starting point, and similar goals. Thanks for the inspiration- mine has been 3 years going and yours is getting done way faster 😢
Don't worry, taking your time often results in more detail work being done. Also, I assume you do most of the work yourself which in and of itself it admirable to say the least. (Obviously, no offence to Ben and the boys!!) So take pride, and when the time comes to roll around like a 'baller', the enjoyment will be even greater!! ;)
I recently started a new build and I recon it will take close to 4 or 5 years to finish. Most of the work will be done by me and my father. Whereas paint, cage and ECU tune will be outsourced when the time and money is there. (The build is complete with engine swap, bigger brakes and the such...) Close to Pro-Touring to say the least. Then I look around and see whole teams do a similar build in just a few months :O .....
yes a very good arroz con pollo and large margaritas is very nice indeed
The VTEC crossovers with build up sounded the way it feels when you finally get that tight spot in your joints with a nice stretch
Sounds soo freaking good!!!!! Brahhhhhhhggggg!!!!!! You need to call THE MAN BRET AT PFI PERFORMANCE.
Really enjoying this set up 🧐
I do love the cars and coffee carporn ITB build. Alot will say waste of money but honestly this car will probably feel really special.
I agree, I’ve raced motorcycles and what I’ve realized is that even though HP is great to have. I’d rather have lower HP for better power delivery and handling. I’ve got my 350z tuned and specifically talked with my tuner with the understanding that I want usable power and torque to balance out my handling. No I race at VIR and some other tracks and the plan works well.
instead of headers try longer intake tubes for itb. and i noticed the muffler has wrong diameter. tubing for n/a k engines is ideal 2,5" we have simmilar setup on our racing engine 300hp k20 and can rev 9900rpm after a lot of dyno runs we switched back into skunk 2 intake manifold and its more usable this way. engine is in Noma M20 SC racecar and it won a lot of national hillclimb events
I am now fully caught up on the entire lore of Gears and Gasoline...
You guys have come so far :')
Welcome to the S2000 community! S2ktakeover is a must for you now! Don’t track it because if you do, you’re gonna fall in love!
shoutout whoever named the chapters
congrats on 1M guys
^ this power to weight got my odyssey looking track ready
I was waiting for this!!!!!
I love the fact that the higher and higher it gets in revs, it sounds more and more like a superbike.
Cams, and longer velosity stacks.
Those drag cams are the limt of flow.
The stacks need to be about 110-125mm long.
reminds me of a teaser for a Sport Compact Car feature car: “we can’t tell you what we’re doing to it next month, but it rhymes with ‘splindividual flottle toddies’” RIP SCC
Ooh i like that MCU style tagline at the end.
Weird man, my buddy built a all motor same engine with itb’s, in his garage on his spare time, when we brang it to the dyno it made around 240-250 whp but that was first trip he said he has to figure some stuff out and go back for more power! Maybe it’s his cams not sure!
European and Japanese K20A from the EP3 Type R made 200hp originally and you could bump up the HP even more just by changing cams, valve springs and a tune for example.
Check out for a European K20A head from the Type R as it has better flow. 👍
Tall Ben is now a Honda man 😁 great show please keep making more video
ASM is awesome! (I uploaded ASM/Gridlife decals to GranTurismo 7) Looking forward to seeing what Ben does with the S2K!
ITB's really benefit from resonance tuning, particularly Heimholtz resonance.
-Caveman explanation time (TL;DR): Intake valve closes, air still have momentum. Air slam against intake valve backside, it pressurize. pressure shoot back out trumpet. Once pressure wave exit trumpet, ITB at partial vacuum. Nature no likey vacuum; air (positive pressure) rush back down ITB. If timed right, positive pressure wave reach backside of intake valve as it open. Extra air enter engine while valve is not full open, then engine give atmosphere the good suck. This cause increase in Volumetric Efficiency, and more powah.
-Non-cavemman explanation: ITB's work best when they're treated more like a 2 stroke expansion chamber/exhaust pipe than a standard intake manifold. Just like an expansion chamber in a 2-stroke, there's a certain RPM range where the dynamics of the pulsing pressure waves (explained above) are timed correctly in relation to engine speed, and cause a natural supercharging effect. This phenomenon is directly influenced by 2 things: real-time air momentum/density (measured in real time seconds and not in relation to crankshaft degrees), and physical runner length. This is one of the reasons why the LaFerrari has infinitely variable length intake runners (which are ITB's). Those runners utilize stepper motors and a linkage to extend or retract the trumpets closer to and further away from the intake port, and have the adjustable portion of the trumpet moving inside the port-side portion of the ITB as 2 sleeves; the upper/adjustable portion slides in and out of the lower portion, allowing for very finite control of overall/effective runner length.
-The general rule of thumb is that the higher the RPM, the shorter runner length you want; and that's true for both intake and exhaust runners because of the real-world amount of time the air charge has to enter and exit the engine. With that being said, on multiple cylinder engines, that's not always the case due to pressure wave spillover from one trumpet to the ones adjacent to it.
-Which is why it bugs me that no one has ever considered attempting a motor-actuated exhaust header (at least in an experimental setup) that adjusts the lengths of the header primaries throughout the RPM range and makes them shorter as the RPM climbs.
Hope you guys get this thing sorted. I think a couple of hot dog resonators in the exhaust will help get rid of those ugly sounding frequencies.
Yall need a 4piston head, thats what yall need
The heart is beating, now the time for the suits.
Hey Guys! I don't know how far in the process you are, but... Ex-formula SAE member here, i designed the exhaust manifold and helped design the intake for our formula car. The low numbers shown are a result of the components being thrown at the car without considering the effect they have to each other. The right setup can be calculated in regards to the exhaust header design as well as intake trumpet length, which will greatly affect power output and delivery. I would have shared my documents i used for the calculations but it's in french. Hit me up if you want to know more about it!
I spent years playing with race cars on ITBs. The biggest factor is head flow. As power is dropping off at 8k ish you are either hitting the flow limit of the ports (in / ex or both) OR your not physically letting enough air in so running out of cam/valve. I suspect its a combo of both. I would defo be looking at cam.
Best RUclips channel ever
More cam duration for the higher rpms. Short ITBs for high rpms. Do a compression test to check your numbers. Make sure the plugs and spark is strong.