Rules Lawyer and SwingRipper REACT LIVE to Pathfinder's new Guardian + Commander classes!
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- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2024
- Join the RULES LAWYER and @SwingRipper as we react to Pathfinder's playtest for TWO NEW CLASSES, the Guardian and Commander!
Also watch my speculation video about the two new classes, looking at what D&D 4e did with similar classes the FIGHTER and WARLORD:
• Retrospective on D&D 4...
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Игры
-Yes, I get a few things wrong in this stream. Such is the nature of a live reaction! Thanks for all the clarifications in the comments!
-Make sure to PLAYTEST these if you can, and participate in the Paizo forums where the devs directly engage with playtesters! paizo.com/community/forums/pathfinder/second/battlecryPlaytest
-For those interested, SwingRipper put out a critique/first impressions of the Guardian already: ruclips.net/video/Mz6tpstNlWo/видео.html
57:20 No. Hardness is not resistance. Hardness is NOT worded as "resistance to all damage". In fact, resistance to all damage types is addressed in the rules as to be applied to each damage type separately where as hardness is applied to the total damage it would take. As an example, hardness 10 and 'resist all 10' would function very differently on an attack that does 25 fire, 25 acid, and 25 bludgeon damage (hardness would change that 75 damage to 65, but resist all would make it 45 instead of 75), while hardness and resistance could work together in this instance, you would apply resistance to each damage type then hardness to the total for 35 damage instead of 75.
Hardness also breaks when the item is at half HP and most creatures with a hardness follow a similar rule. I don't think any resistances break after so much damage. If hardness was a resistance it would follow similar rules and it would be placed along with resistances.
Very nice, thanks
one thing I want to notice about guardian is that after lv 5 they would have at least +2 over all other martials (with exception of champion and monk) so by using taunt they are lowering down thier AC to level of your standard martial, at lv 11-12 and 15-18 they might even have +4 over thier party
One thing with Ferocious Vengeance you missed (at least as of 1:39:32 which is when I paused the video to type this) is that what “activates” Ferocious Vengeance isn’t the Taunt, it’s the affected enemy *attacking someone else on their turn*. So you have until the end of your turn after the enemy made that attack to hit them and deal the bonus damage.
EDIT: Mitigate Harm, at least, makes sense because you’re more likely to be crit by the target of your Taunt.
Was going to say the exact same thing at basically the same time stamp, that being said I think it should at least also come with a to-hit boost.
An idea I had that could be explored in the design space for Guardian is something where you taunt enemies by getting a buff at the start of your next turn, unless you take a certain amount of damage. That would incentivize enemies to target the Guardian out of necessity rather than just because it's easiest, and gets around the issue that high level bosses will just make their save and go for your allies.
It could also come with some good defensive buffs, like an increase in healing on your next turn, to mitigate the effects of the damage. Something like:
-If you dont deal enough damage to do guardian, they get a strong party buff (Maybe they are channeling something, or preparing to rally)
-If you do deal the damage, the next heal they get is maximised/another compensatory buff to the Guardian to help them recover
The thing I hate about stuff like this is that would mean your enemies somehow know you get buffed if they don't attack you...
@@StormRegaliaIV Why not? Fighters with Reactive Strike know that they should attack spellcasters to interrupt their spells. Why wouldn't enemies see a guy using some supernatural ability and not intuit "hey, that guy looks like he's powering up for something, I should hit him to make him stop"?
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter you wouldn't see him "powering up" it's a morale thing, it's not visible.
Seeing them powering up (psyching themselves up) would be pretty cool. Given that it’s a bit gamey already.
The DM can always adjudicate how creatures like slimes don’t notice or whatever.
Plant banner is fantastic. Giving free temp HP every round and adding 10 feet to the range of the banner is quite strong. Yeah, it represents a vulnerability, a vulnerability that requires the enemy to use 2 actions by the way, but it's only a single action to pick it back up if someone is getting close. A team that is paying attention, locking down enemies, making reactionary strikes etc can punish anyone that goes after that banner. Sometimes bait is useful, Afterall.
I might be more open to it if it weren't for the Frightened effect when the banner is stolen, which I personally think is fiddly and unnecessarily punishing
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG yeah, I can agree with that. Losing the passive bonuses is punishment enough, but to add frightened on top of that feels like doubling up.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPGnot just that, you're losing access to some of your class. gaining frightened is thematically appropriate, but not mechanically fair imo. I'm personally excited for the GM to push for enemies to steal my banner, that creates really interesting combats, hell as a GM myself I'm absolutely implementing banner style mechanics for certain combats.
Commander is amazing and I love it.
Guardian is awful and i think it needs tons full changes buffs and some feat nerfs.
The spine of the class needs a buff and their attack progression needs to be on par with all the martial classes.
Taunt needs to last longer, or work lile Bon Mot. Intercept needs to have 15 feet range at level 1 and gain more mobility with some feats.
The class should have some cool subclasses like a 2 handed weapons count as a shield for all purpuses.
You can use two shields and attack with them, or you can use your shield as a throw weapon with return property, or stuff like that. Or two weapons.
Different subclasses lile Magus, swashbuckler or Rogue.
I couldn’t make the livestream but count me as a vote for Guardian. The Commander is super-cool but it is the Guardian that I want to play! Possibly even a centaur guardian after Howl of the Wild drops.
One thing to think about guardian's taunt. You give the enemy a +2 to hit you and on failure and -2 to hit your allies. However if you are a sheild wealing guardian, you have such a high ac the creature still has a better chance to hit/crit your squishier allies. So the guardian has the interrupt strke reaction. So it easier to hit the guardians by hitting their adjacent allies.
Also interrupt strike trigger on phys dmg not just srtikes mean it works on saves and persistent dmg.
There's 1 thing you missed that makes guardian even worse when compared to a similar build in 4E. You mentioned the "higher number of healing surges" but there was no mention that in 4E, a healing surge did more for characters with more hp. As a baseline, a healing surge would heal 25% of your hit points. That could be modified by healing classes in various ways but that was always the starting point, and those 2 factors were multiplicative in how much healing you could dish out to a tank.
TRUE!
I thought I'd said that you healed more when you used a healing surge? At least it was in my head lol. Long stream. Anyway, yes it's true!
@@TheRulesLawyerRPGYou did mention that they healed for more with a surge.
Commander is great imo, i feel that some feats like plant banner are bit more for rp purposes ('you WILL defend this perimeter and this banner' kinda deal) , it has soft subclasses (combat medic route, quick repreparation, RKC one, horse (even tho horse is clearly the weakest)) and what factors in is the opportunity cost because you can't have everything. Sure you can swap out your prepared folio but then it would make sense to have more than you're allowed to have (including the dailies) and then to make use of "use daily and swap next combat" you are heavily paying for that in feats and losing out on other stuff. It has another angle in building it because you can dump int since KAS covers basic party size, if you include companions/eidolons and want them as squadmates or npcs (you can resize the squad on the 10min drills) then the bigger limit makes sense so there is a potential there (your squad's subsidiaries like said eidolon/companion could use clarification on interaction if they're even eligible to be counted as a separate squadmate). I don't think that all the strike+rider effects will survive being 1a or not having cooldowns, some of them are just too good even if you factor in that your tactics are often 2a.
Guardian... too clunky, too much nonbos. Why is Armor Break a thing? your armor prof for non-medium+ is always at trained, it doesnt progress so it actively hampers you esp given all the other feats that require you wearing medium or heavy. I don't think that bit slower martial weapon prof is that big of a deal in context that its still str KAS so it won't feel it that much, especially since the sentiment towards caster-base gishes are to suck it up at expert forever (and even later than guardian does get expert) or warpriest's super late level 19 master strikes. So for your one attack a turn, considering that you still have to potentially move/taunt/do something else, that proficiency shouldn't hamper you that much. Especially if you focus more on being an annoyance with Athletics and stuff like whirling throw, the skills progress at normal so you're not at disadvantage there at all. Larger than life stacks with Titan Wrestler so you can even throw linnorms around like pillows. It definitely needs big refinements but I see what they were cooking here.
Also i don't get the complaining that x is from y class. Yes, a lot of feats are actually shared between classes so getting a fighter feat isn't really a downside worth complaining about? And for these two getting some of the archetype feats in the pool makes sense because they're essentially de-archetyped into a full classes.
One thing I will say about taunt vs champion reactions, is that if an enemy makes you use your champion reaction, that's it. Your incentive to attack the champion is spent for that round, where as taunt will persist and can affect multiple enemies if you spam it on different foes or take a feat to buff it. Though I do think Guardian is clunky in some ways and needs some more love.
Also, I feel like people are sleeping on that you have a good chance of critically taunting targets with is not only a -3 to attacks that don't include you, but also DC's. This is massive! Moving behind a fighter and using taunt to either force the enemy to make two move actions, or get a reactive strike as they try to move around the fighter to get at you. That or they have a hefty minus. I actually think this is a very versatil class with a lot of good options.
Personally I think this is currently the best tank in the game. You don't have to taunt everything on the map. Moving to the front line, raising a shield, and taunting a high move or ranged enemy to keep them from going after your group is an awesome turn.
Anothing thing I want to add is something that is very real, yet not talked about. There are players that can't roll dice well to save their lives. Even despite these adorable shiny math rocks are random they just never roll well. Both of these classes are extremely effective without ever rolling dice 😉
@@BeastFoundry You have less of a chance because you have a middling DC progression. This class is designed with constant anti-synergy.
- Guardian's DCs are lower, so its Taunt isn't as good.
- Guardian's ACs are higher, so its Intercept Strike bypasses it.
I think the squadmate limitation is so you can't before a big battle take a group of 17 NPC give them bow and have all of them skewer the BBEG with arrows
It probably is also to limit animal companions and undead companions that could benefit. Since so many of the commanders tactics give free actions, there's no reason you cant drill with animal companions. And even though companions don't get reactions, the commander gives free reactions so an animal companion could fully make use of a tactic. A group of 4, each with their own companion, could be nutty if ALL of them could be a squad mate, especially at early levels.
I Agree with you on Hardness. SwingRipper is Wrong Hardness is not resistance it only say "the amount of damage it takes is reduced by this amount" it dont talk about resistance.
and several feature they want to ignore hardness specifically call out resistance and hardness in its text.
I get that SwingRipper's comments are tossing cold water on everyone's excitement (and that's gonna feel more extreme when Commander is simultaneously getting so much praise), but this kind of "harsh criticism, with reasons" is exactly what anyone who is trying to perfect a design needs and wants, and frankly rarely gets from co-workers who might feel bad tearing into someone's work. Saying "Class A sucks!" doesn't help, but saying "This ability means that this other ability is completely useless, so what benefit do you actually get?" is how we avoid another Alchemist design.
I think Guardian should get a different version of reactive strike. The entire point of the class is that it wants enemies to target it instead of other classes. Reactive strike triggers when an enemy moves in your range. This will dissuade enemies from coming near you in the first place.
So something like this:
Penalizing strike - reaction
Requirements: A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action, makes a ranged attack, or uses a move action to move away from you or towards an ally.
---
Make a melee Strike against the triggering creature. If your attack is a critical hit and the trigger was a manipulate action, you disrupt that action. If your attack is a critical hit and the trigger was a move action, the creature's move speed drops to 5ft until the start of their next turn. This Strike doesn't count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn't apply to this Strike.
The movement penalty would also justify the Guardian getting this at a higher level.
Edit: change speed drop from 0 to 5ft as suggested by playerkit
Should drop to Speed 5 to fit in mechanically. That's the bottom of Speed, according to the rules.
@@playerkit I forgot about that. Thanks
Maybe Paladin's champion reaction: Retributive Strike would be closer to what you are looking for?
@@Trombi01 Good point
Ferocious Vengeance I think is supposed to mean you deal the extra damage until the end of your next turn when a taunted enemy attacks someone other than you, but it definitely needs better wording and probably a buff.
Mitigate Harm is meant for when taunted enemies attack YOU, the thing your reaction and taunt itself are meant to encourage. Because taunted enemies will crit you more often due to the buff to their attacks on you when taunted, you'll be crit more often, and so the purpose here is to offset the extra critical damage you take. Because this is meant to be when enemies attack YOU, it doesn't stack with when you intercept attacks for your allies because that's not what this feature is for. But I do think it could use a buff. This is about keeping yourself alive when making yourself more vulnerable.
I think one thing you missed with the "everybody fire" order, you can use wizard cantrips as part of it, so theres big efficiency in using 2-action attack cantrips. So a commander and a squad of wizards can release a bunch of electric arcs into a crowd, or a lot of cold iron needle darts into a demon/fey creature.
It wont be viable once something gets into melee with them, but theres something hilarious about a commander with a squad of wizards.
taunt should give the target only a negative to strike opponents, not a bonus to strike the guardian imho
That's not enough of a incentive to attack the super-armor wearing ultra defense master in my opinion. If i had a -1 or -2 penalty to hitting the wizard i'd maybe need to roll a 13 instead of a 11, but why would i not do that if hitting the Guardian still required me to roll like a 16 or 17. My chances to hit the Wizard would still be better, so i could simply ignore the taunt from a pure "enemy considers their best chances to landing a hit" stand point.
Looking forward to the actual playtest!!
The party may only be 4 or 5 PC's... but by those higher levels the animal companions and other minions in most party's might be why you need more "squadmates"
Since a folio is a physical thing I am guessing that they felt they didn't need to specifically state that.
Solid quick look and, in theory, good to have a co host.
However, Swing Ripper regularly talks over you in a diskointed fashion. Made me turn the video off and deliberately skip his portions.
I enjoyed and enjoyed you having someone to banter with
i liked the idea. I really had to force myself to tollerate the guest's banter.
Defensive Swap + Champion Reaction seems like a fun interaction.
Let's say your allied Champion gets attacked and you stand next to him/her. You use Defensive Swap to redirect the attack to you. Now the Champion can potentially use his/her reaction to protect you.
It's like saying thanks for taking the hit for me, here have some damage reduction in return.
Guardian should probably be 12 Hitpoints (maybe more?)
Their reaction should include that the attack CAN also be compared to your AC if the attack turns from a crit success to a success. If the enemy is taunted and targets an ally their statistical AC could be higher than yours.
A shield is a MUST HAVE so if they could have an extra reaction which they can shieldblock (special: you can use it without having your shield raised). That way you can eat hits better
The Commander - Banner carried into combat solutions - look to history - Feudal Japan - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sashimono
59:50 no it says “use your reaction” twice so the free action lets them move and then their own reaction lets them attack.
Hope you do a live play test like you did with the other play test classes.
I really like the options for maneuvers around the battlefield. And the ability to apply off guard after making attacks. In smaller rooms flanking isn't as good of a choice and keeping a formation is more important. But ultimately I'm excited to try out these new classes
I just love the emphasis on thematic classes. I want to feel heroic and do things that make the table cheer and get hyped.
Thanks for the vid
Aren't the sub-classes of the Commander (like a fighter) in the feats/builds? You could be the shield commander, the medic commander, then mounted commander, etc.
If An Enemy Attacks And Crits An Ally With Crit Immunity Does The Damage Get Reduced For The Gaurdian? Intercept Strike Says You Take The Damage (Not The Attack) Instead, And Crit Immunity Reads "It Takes Normal Damage Instead Of Double Damage".
I was wondering if guardian would be another, 12 hit points or con based class
Is there a balance reason I'm not seeing as to why guardian is not 12+con hp?
I think it is mostly to not stand on the barbarian's toes though I feel like it would solve the biggest problems with taunt. Barbarian needs it because their rage reduces their AC by 1, the guardian would need it because taunt reduces its AC and Saves by 2. (So even worse but against just 1 foe) This would also meant that intercept strike wouldn't be as detrimental since you have a lot more health than whoever you are protecting. Yes the guardian get resistances from armor specialization, but those are very limited and once you hit level 7+ not really that much better than champions and fighters.
To be fair, a commander with a banner probably wouldn't be the type to be relying on unarmed. If you want a tactical brawler, commander with a banner probably doesn't fit the image if you imagine it.
I feel like the way you should play the guardian right now is sitting with the squishies and shooting the enemy, and then switching to melee when the enemy come closer.
You might be running henchmen to get more than 7 people.
So with each person running two characters you can get 8 characters in a 4 person party.
Love that Commander can give one Reaction, but its still limits the combinations you can have if you have more then 1 class that wants to use it reaction for other things. since alot of the Tactics works on everyone in the aura. but only 1 can gain the free extra reaction.
its resonable from a balance point but it limits how you build your party some what (if you care about that)
That's why there's feats to increase the reactions you can give.
There exists like a siege weapon that a person can carry. So you can reload these with a commander.
Thanks for doing this! Was not a fan of your co-host and him talking over you. Hope to hear more from you and what you think of these when you have time to digest things!
Right?
Ronald is trying to formulate thoughts in a live initial reaction and this dude is busy interrupting with "capital O Opinions" about things irrelevant to what Ronald is currently reading or digesting.
Comment on "why every songle option for this class is a trap" 1:46:20 .
I think it's a bit to early to say any of the class option is plain bad. Right now it's clash of expectations on the class. Like what is the class goals in combat. Is it crowd control, support or mitigate damage? It's hard to get the feel of the class without trying it out.
The guardian could get an extra reaction at level 1.
I was initially worried that guardian would just be a better version of the champion, similar to how Animist sort of steps all over premaster Oracle. Guess that worry is alleviated 😂.
I think maybe porting over some stuff from 1e vanguard might help. Give them something called retribution that works like panache but triggers when they take X amount of damage and lets them do cool stuff.
I'm waiting for the cowardly Guardian build, with Long-Distance Taunt -> Raise Haft (with Bow Staff) -> Group Taunt. You stand far in the back, and taunt the enemy melee while 80-120 feet away.
Another 'cheese' is the above build with Hampering Sweeps, but you flank behind the enemies, and hampering sweeps them from 80 feet away (with the bow staff) and not allow them to get closer to your allies.
I'm a bit of a Tankie myself
Make it to the taunted enemy is off-guard UNLESS it has done a hostile action on you.
Commander is great
I think there should just be more high level tactics. They probably didn't think about it that hard.
I thought the Guardian was going to be a defender druid.
Hardness is not a resistance.
The guardian reaction is worse than a champions obviously, but it's also worse than commander? With commander you at least still use your AC.
Taunt is also terrible? They get a penalty to hit your allies, but demoralize does that, and their defenses, and doesn't give them a +2 against you.
You don't get the expert AC until your class DC is 4 behind demoralize accuracy... Capping at 6 behind demoralize.
And demoralize isn't a primary class feature.
Just play Bard, your AC is already bad, and you already have demoralize! (and eventually dirge and level 3 fear spam).
I don't like Guardian.
Guardian does need some work. But for the demoralize thing, Taunt stacks with Demoralize so you could taunt and have someone else demoralize. Plus unlike demoralize they have to crit succeed the save to not be affected, where as a regular failure negates demoralize. You also can't keep demoralizing the same creature multiple rounds unless you have the whole party taking turns.
Taunt should be an ability that is tied to intimidate. An entire class should not be built around it alone.
Intimidate is already really powerful due to Demoralize in combat though. I don't think also giving it Taunt is a good idea balance wise.
@@MalzraAirwynn then put behind a skill feat, expert/master rank, or both. It should not be a class feature. Or are you suggesting a different skill to be tied to?
@@krissaunders6418 I don't really see the problem with a class having this as a feature in the first place. Demoralize is already there and very good if you want to use intimidation in combat.
@MalzraAirwynn taunt - a nonmagical way of drawing enemies to you so they don't attack your allies. An ability that every tank class wants and should have access to. Every tank build will need this going forward because now it is an ability that codifies how to get the attention of your opponents in battle.
Locking taunt behind Guardian would be like making Demoralize only a Barbarian class ability.
Taunt needs to be a skill ability period. If not Intimidate then another. Putting it behind a class will make every tank build take a dip into Guardian for it.
Adding more silos sucks imo. Both a guardian trope and commander trope could all be done with more feats and options.
I also dislike the feat silos like most of the metamagic feats being tied to wizard/witch
My initial REACTION to the commander class is that it is wildly overturned and their kit is overloaded. I think that it may invalidate other class' purposes while also buffing the party on top
Also regarding the guardian, the guest seems already resigned to the fact the class is not good. If 1 person is taking dmg then it opens up the healer to do other things. Additionally feats like toughness and all the resistances means while youre taking dmg its not as much as it seems
I see it more that double support with caster+commander would be hardlocked into meta. Any number modifications combined with commander give big yield of "value". And that might push more people into caster resentment as now you'd not be "supporting optimally" even while still taking care of the battlefield.
@@Kokszo a valid point as well
I love commander in concept but fear its current state will crack the game open way too easily if the player knows what they're doing and synergizes with their party. Guardian I love in concept and is the one I'd more want to play but I think it needs a bit more love.
Not a fan of commander, honestly. Feels like it too reliant on group having barbarian or fighter (or better two) to compinsate lack of own things to do.
The folio is just your "art of war" and you taking someone else's folio is just you plagiarizing.
This swingripper guy is such a poor pairing with Ronalds personality. Never like hearing him
Wow the Guardian's base class features are so comically horribly and antisynergistically designed. Huge disappointment compared to the Commander
Thematically, I do not like any class which relies on giving "orders" as a game mechanic because it instantly turns your fellow players into subordinates.
Is telling people what to do really an adventuring skill? If my character is a rogue that bristles at being given commands, why am I given such an incentive to RP against my character? Am I so eager to follow commands that I get actions just because someone tells me what to do?
It's an RPG, not a wargame with centralized command structures.
It's a party game. Have you considered using your words in direction to your other players?
@@AnaseSkyrider Sure I have. But I thought we were talking about the "commander" class, not the "director" class. The distinction between giving directions and giving commands is subtle but important. The latter will not go down as well.
I get that some people have issue with taking orders, but in the end, the Commander is trying to keep you alive, and is giving you literally free actions, so in order for someone to have an issue with that, they'd have to be roleplaying a total stubborn moron, who doesn't want to do any teamwork (which is kinda an issue in a party based game). Seriously, saying "I don't want to do that cause I don't wanna follow commands" is literally what a child would say, and is not something I'd want to hear from a team mate.
And if it's such a big deal, you can always just imagine that the Commander doesn't give orders, but advice on what to do next.
@@Magicwillnz you can always choose to ignore the command if you want, but i agree that this is weird if done poorly bc you don't want to feel a weird "chain of command" in your adventuring group but if you refuse to follow the tactics of the commander you also deny his class feature and fantasy.
Eh... the Commander is just giving his homies extra actions so they can be even more awesome and do even more DPR.
pf2 doest try to create anything new. They are just trying to move away of 5e by going back to 4e.
And if that's done right and clean as it should be, that's ok.
@@szadec9264 well for me pf2 was a disappointment, and their continuation is getting worse. pf2 is bloated for no reason at all. There is no reason to have a fighter, a commander, a swashbuckler and a commander. This is what made pf1 fail as well.
SwingRipper is so annoyingly min-maxi that it's giving me a headache listening to him for more than like two sentences.
God forbid someone care about the mechanics in the mechanically-heavy system.