Can you RUIN the original?
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- I hope you like slightly too audible FF7 menu beeps. Because it was difficult to tell if they were there, at the time... (Yikes)
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Two apologies: 1) menu beeps. My setup wasn't good enough to tell how loud or inaudible they were at the time. 2) If this one comes off as more abrasive than usual, or less researched. I haven't been in a good place lately and my options and time were limited. Still, I hope the idea is there.
Unabashed Plague is best plague so I'm here for it
I hope you're doing better after all you've been through , the video is informative and fun . It thanks to your videos that kept me through the day and I'm doing RUclips now doing my best . Hope you recover and have a good Christmas .
I don't have Twitter so I've not been able to ask this: is there anything we as a community can do for you? You've been through multiple layers of hell and deserve a reversal of fortunes.
I care less about that and more about you BEING ALIVE. Now that we know you are, to some capacity, our fears are kept at bay.
You final Fantasy argument falls flat on its face. After FF7, they had a bunch of different directors try out different ways things with the franchise. FF8 tried to recreate what 7 did due to Kitase and Nojima. 9 tried to be a love letter to SNES while being PS1 with Ito and Sakaguchi. FF10 became a huge Japanese fan favorite thanks to Toriyama and Nojima. So on and so on.
So no, Toriyama didn’t poison shit with FF13, Ito didn’t ruin anything with 12, or Square stopped being good after 7. This is you smelling Spoony One’s farts and ignoring context. Which is ironic given how you kept blabbing on about context.
I had to dislike this video on pure principle of how dumb said argument was Plague. Please do better next time, you are sounding like an out of touch old fart in a lot of areas
"I don't belive in hospital warlocks."
Me, a hospital warlock: Fool.
lol
these idiots.. dont they know warlocks know how to use a soulstone, but noOoOo,
They think those diseases just “go away” when they don’t even know about the purging stones!
Are those working in Morgues considered as Necromancers?
Someone should write a Hospital Warlock D&D homebrew.
Also when you were talking about how Sephiroth and Darth Vader became popular and were there for marketing, I couldn't help but think of pyramid head. Pyramid head had a specific purpose but became iconic and was shoehorned into other media that completely undermined its original purpose.
Man, fandoms and marketing sure ruins a lot of things.
Yeah, but did you see how he unsleeved that lady's entire skin in one yank in the movie?!
*Amazing*
@@JoseRS1186 the movies were poopy
I feel like Harley Quinn can also be sort of put into that category. She started out as just a sidekick and gradually became a really interesting look at both the joker and abusive relationships. Now she’s the quirky poster child of modern dc
@@sluly3950 the harley quinn animated show is pretty good though.
@@thelel6591 from what I've seen of that it seems pretty mediocre, which is on par with most DCAU shows these days
"Gywn had a son he disowned, something about the annals of history."
And a Van Halen mixtape.
(Also that ending had some real "feels" to it.)
"GET OOOUUUUTTT....."
Best explanation 😄
Van Halen mixtape xD
Based on the Japanese translations i can tell you thats not true
Based on the Japanese translations i can tell you thats not true
People will remember you when you’re gone plague. You might be niche and obscure, but I would care if no new plague videos ever came out, and a lot of other people would too. Not just because what you make is entertaining, but because a creative force that I like would be missing from the world.
I'd miss him just as much as I still miss super best friends play
@@parkervaughan7262 Oh god, I hate how much the mere thought of both SBF and Plague ceasing to exist is fucking horrific to me.
o7 salute to that
I’m
False. Not even his mom will miss him
"Be critical, be kind" is an excellent phrase that'll be underappreciated moving forward probably.
The thing I find most valuable about DaS3, funnily enough, is how it turned the whole cycle concept into a metaphor about the games themselves-how it really is best, sometimes, just to let something die before it gets too played-out.
Same. It’s like the devs took a good long look at the game and decided that the series can’t continue any longer, so they centered it’s story around that idea.
I remember beating ds3 and I was like can't wait for ds4. As I played the game more and understand the lore, I thought to myself maybe it ok for Dark Souls end here. It saw it time has come and went out on it own accord. Leaving its legacy behind for others game could rises up and thrive like it predecessor once did.
ELDEN RING IN STORES NOW
Elden ring lore and world are completely different. Is Bloodborne a dark souls copy now too? Jeez.
@@inigo137 Elden Ring is different but it definitely feels like they just took ds3 and made it open world. Bloodborne while similar to DS, had the bare fundamentals changed to make it feel far more unique. Combat is completely different, healing now works through an item you have to kill to obtain, you can’t rest at lantern only go to the dream. Much of that is small stuff but it changes how the world feels completely. Elden Ring has differences from ds3 but those feel built upon the fundamentals than actually changing them to feel natural in the world.
I actually really like the theory that you never actually fight Sephiroth throughout the original FFVII, its all just Jenova. My take on it always has been though that yes, its all Jenova, every physical thing you fight that pretends to be Sephiroth is actually Jenova. However, I like to believe that Sephiroth, when he died, was assimilated into Jenova, and sort of fused into the consciousness of the entire alien being. Its not Jenova pretending to be Sephiroth just to do its thing, its Sephiroth's consciousness becoming imprinted onto Jenova, to the point that either Sephiroth took over Jenova, or Jenova THINKS its Sephiroth, so it is now Sephiroth. Either way, the original man, the original body died, but the ghost lives on essentially, through this Alien creature. Thats my personal theory tho.
Your fan theory is objectively better than any actual canonical stories being put out by Square Enix nowadays.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr I would like emphasise Yoko Taro as among the bads. Despite the fan boys gushing at his frankly clumsy attempt at narrative pacing and theming.
And honestly I think Nomura just speaks for himself. People can claim he had very little of his touch on FF7R. I know Nomura dialogue and scene structure when I see it. You don't play most of his games and not memorize his shitty habits. Also ffs that title naming sense. Piss off Nomura had very little influence over the project.
@@ceresbane Come on, he's not THAT bad.
Like FF7, his Drakengard/Nier-verse is based on his own life experiences and how he deals with them, that alone should put him in at least a worthwhile category. What makes them more exciting to me is seeing how he changed his mind during the different games and how it affected them.
It's VERY personal, like FF7, and while ofcourse it's not as good, that's a hell of an achievement given the state of gaming the past 20 years.
@@roberteriksen6434 ill compromise. Yoko Taro is a great ideas man. He however is not a good writer. Not budging on Nomura though. That man is a hack.
@@ceresbane Could you give some examples of Yoko Taro's bad writing? Not to say I disagree, but I'd like you to expand on it.
The Spirits Within's failure didn't exactly cause the merger. It actually scared away Enix for a time. Square and Enix higher ups were already discussing a merger a while beforehand, but put it off after things went to shit. Then, after FFX and KH made back a lot of money, as well as Yoichi Wada pushing to start milking the brand with sequels, prequels, midquels, etc. (with X-2 actually still being released as a Squaresoft product in Japan), it made a merger tantalizing for Enix again, and so it came to be.
Fucking Kingdom Hearts
@@fewglow5076 To be fair, even though it's common to believe the merger was what doomed things, the reality is that, even if Enix didn't join with Square, the company would've still been fucked because the internal politics going on were already ruining everything behind-the-scenes.
When Yoichi Wada joined and rose up in the ranks, Sakaguchi was steadily being phased out due to Wada and the more business-minded people up top wanting to milk the brand (The Spirits Within's failure reflecting poorly on the Gooch didn't help either).
If both companies had never merged, the Square we'd have throughout the 00s would've still been more or less the same shitty one, only with relatively less resources. And Enix would probably have never bothered localizing Dragon Quest globally for a few more years, since Square's brand recognizably and marketing was what encouraged them to start bringing over mainline DQ games to PAL regions across the world for the first time.
Knowing all that, it really makes one think how screwed things would've really been anyways.
the failure allowed enix a lot more negotiating power, and if it had done gangbusters, the comapny would have altogether walked away from the table. That said, I think you are right.
@@shoopoop21 Yasuhiro Fukushima, the founder of Enix, was the one who stated that the film's failure made them hesitate to go through with the planned merger. They didn't want to join with a company who lost a substantial amount of money after their movie bombed. Then a few years past, Square made bank with FFX and KH, and they were ready to commit to it.
@@Sawngawkuh _They didn't want to join with a company who lost a substantial amount of money after their movie bombed._
Anyone with any knowledge on how branding and corporate mergers work recognizes this as a lie. This is simply not true, or any kind of actual logic. You _want_ to merge with financially weaker companies, because you have much better negotiating power. I'm not an expert on these companies, but stop trusting them at face value. These are cut throat Japanese businessmen.
I saw Advent Children first, so I always assumed Sephiroth was a vengeful ghost that drove Cloud insane out of spite, for killing him. And every subsequent appearance was less about power and world domination, but to make cloud suffer. I truly believe that Sephiroth is petty enough to come back from death, twice, just to spite his killer.
Same. I even played the psp ff game where you play as Zack and this still makes sense. He seems like a very powerful and petty man.
@@magicmanscott40k every thing about ff7 after ff7 is made under the same context, ff7 itself is like plague described star wars episode 4 or just star wars a game with a beginning middle and end and nothing wasted
Apparently, killing Sephiroth makes him fall in love with you.
This seems somewhat at odds with his original characterization though. Remember he was a pretty heroic guy before the Jenovah reveal drove him mad. It always bothered me he developed into basically a different personality. It would make more sense if his previous traits were transposed onto his new goal of reviving Jenovah (ie. he is now evil, but in his mind believes he is doing the right thing and still acts as he did before).
@@Ergeniz i think thats why many dont like genesis, its an explination that people would rather speculate, like plague said lots of ff7 was left vague for interpretation, does sephiroth have a hate boner for cloud because he got beat by a nobody or is it just jenova who knows(you know except for kitase because he wrote a novel explaining what happened to aerith and sephiroth after ff7 before advent children)
I've never really understood the "rivalry" between Cloud and Sephiroth. Sephiroth barely even knew who Cloud was. Same thing with people who say that Cloud and Tifa were "childhood friends" when they literally mention in game that they barely talked as kids and Tifa only really started thinking about him after he left.
Yeah it’s weird how they’ve almost reversed the relationship
Cloud basically idolized Sephiroth and sephiroth was basically like “Who the heck are you?”
Now Sephiroth basically stalks cloud and is like “I will never be a memory”
Yup, once again terrible writing in the game. I really am starting to believe ff7's popularity is due to it being nostalgic and having a cool villain. Take out Aerith's death and Sephiroth and ff7 would of just been another ff game.
FF7 was a good game for its time. The games story just got fucked over by later installments trying to pile on to it due to Square trying to squeeze every last penny out of it.
I can definitely see what you mean. My interpretation when it comes to Cloud’s and Sephiroth’s relationship is that Cloud idolized Seph before he turned crazy. And after going nuts and burning down a town and killing Zack, Cloud casts that aside and manages to fatally wound/stop Sephiroth, leading for him to throw himself and Jenova into the Lifestream.
To Sephiroth, Cloud went from being a guy who he worked with and who idolized him, to someone he *loathed* because he managed to put an end to his rampage early. And so, out of pure sadistic pleasure to see him and those around him suffer, Sephiroth torments and messes with Cloud whenever he can, even using him for his own purposes since he also has Geostigma which Seph could use against Cloud as he does in the story to where he possesses him and makes him see stuff.
@@philithegamer8265 Spot on. Cash grabs made the story completely wack.
This was really good plague. Really interesting take on the topic. Even with a minimal setup you made an awesome video/podcast
Aside from the garbage at the beginning, he's speaking some real truth in how flanderizing characters can ruin them for newcomers.
Take Pyramid Head from Silent Hill 2 for example.
He's pretty much been permanently ruined through said flanderization. Because of how hard legitimate copies of Silent Hill 2 are to get a hold of, most people's experience with him will wind up being from the American games or movies, which portray him as a malevolent slasher style killer.
That's not Pyramid Head. Pyramid Head never should have appeared outside of SH2 in fact.
Because Pyramid Head is a projection of James's subconscious desire for retribution and punishment; his guilt.
In a weird sense, Pyramid Head is actively trying to help James just with the threat of killing him if he does not absorb the lessons Silent Hill is trying to teach him.
Most people are never gonna know that, though. Most people are just gonna see him as the big scary pyramid guy with the sword who kills people, because that's exactly how all media beyond SH2 portrayed him no thanks to Konami.
@@Impalingthorn Garbage at the beginning?
@@rubz1390 There is only one beginning. You know exactly what he's referring to lol.
@@jnoirj3124 I honestly don't I enjoyed the whole thing,even the unrelated rants.
@@Impalingthorn that's how a lot of people see him that did only know of him through sh2
Listening to that Dark Souls explanation was really satisfying. Nowadays it seems like everyone forgot that the cycles were added afterwards and were never a part of the original. And as you mention, the concept is just there to excuse making more games.
I always thought the ending of 1 was the reveal of the cycle and slow doom of it all as the souls would run out to even fuel it. To me I think cycles were always a thing. The thing he says about Gods hollowing is a ds3 thing now that I think about it.
Also the “cycle” we’re presented with in DS2 is totally different from the one in DS3, the two games don’t make any sense as part of the same continuity.
I think is becuase of what happen with stars wars.
Where is this not mention or even adress poorly section of lore that you can put anything in.
Star wars was the clone wars and what jedi where.
For dark sould is what happens after the light goes out, and AFTER AFTER that.
Also, is easy to go in a "cicles" lore because a lot of media relies on it and is common to history.
Heck, even FF 7 has it, as is explain the destruction of the world is common and just the final phace of a cicle, with the renew on life in another planet. As the next.
So in reality in FF 7 you are kinda the selfish adhole who keep this shity reality going just for a Little longer, most ptobably until you die.
I hated it, that taint of DS2 infecting DS3
is there a good video that can describe all the things wrong with ds2 and 3's lore compared to 1? its not that I don't believe it, I just wanna know why people think it's so bad. i usually paid attention to the gameplay only, like a megaman game, so I'm completely lost
The explanation of that Sephiroth "theory" is just what I got out of FF7 back in the day. It always just seemed really fucking obvious that Sephiroth wasn't around anymore and it was always just Jenova and Cloud's own hangups. It's wild to think that it's considered an old theory.
That's more of a byproduct of some concepts flying over the heads over really young players, compounded by a wonky translation. The Reunion scene was outright dedicated to explaining all about Sephiroth taking control of those Jenova parts, and certain easily manipulated individuals containing her cells to carry out his plans while his real body was in the crater. Little more nuanced indications it's still really Sephiroth speaking through those things are bits like when the party goes to Nibelheim in the present, and Sephiroth's is reminiscing over his revelations in the basement.
There's all this stuff this stuff in the game that makes it apparent it's still all really Sephiroth, but the translation and many players being fairly young at the time, wound up making some grow up thinking different ideas. Especially since they have been conditioned by other RPGs to expect the same trope where there's a real bigger, more evil force at play pulling the strings.
@@Sawngawkuh must have missed that stuff, so which lines prove its real marketing boi?
@@windwaker0rules During the Whirlwind Maze/Reunion sequence, they initially indicate it by Sephiroth stating that "This is the end of this body's usefulness" when talking about acting through Jenova Death before the boss fight, which was what made Cloud and Tifa realize what they had been chasing the whole time. You also hear voices of the copies going on about how Sephiroth is their master during that same scene.
Not long afterwards, it's then fully explained what was going on during the Reunion scene just before Cloud hands over the Black Materia to Sephiroth's real body. It's explained there that the reason why the Jenova parts didn't go towards the main body when it was still held back in Midgar was because Sephiroth, through his will, took control of the Reunion Instinct and drew the Jenova pieces, the copies, and Cloud towards him instead.
The 97 Kaitai Shinsho guide Japan got before the game was even released in the west further confirms that, stating that Sephiroth was responsible for the Sephiroth Illusion (the Jenova parts appearing in his form) and was the one controlling them and the hooded copies.
@@Sawngawkuh saying "this body has lost usefulness" for a hive Mind eating organism doesn't indicate that seph was in control or in control as a human.
I'm going to have to re-watch that cutscene but unless stated it was his will right at that scene, it could just mean that the body of seph is the best host for Jenovas parts like the main core for a hive Mind alien being.
As for the guide, if it was released after the marketing team got it then it would only take priority if the plot didn't have implications of the Jenova or jenovas biological will is in control.
Plus in all honesty, I hate the seph is just such a badass that his will is stronger than a parasitic soul monster that eats the souls of every living being on a planet. If it were the undisputed reason then vii is a much worse game than I thought it was. And anything lore wise ffvii extended universe brings that is "canon" I view as fanfiction garbage like all of squares modern releases except maybe Nier.
@@windwaker0rules I don't know what else to tell you. When you have Sephiroth referring to that Jenova piece as no longer useful, and having those he's mind controlling in that scene explicitly stating that Sephiroth is their master and they're doing his bidding, I don't see how anyone's supposed to take away from that part that Jenova's in control.
Cloud himself even senses his sheer will and specifying it's the actual Sephiroth when they're moving deeper into the crater: "He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound."
Not to mention how, prior to all that, we have Sephiroth (still acting through a Jenova part at the time) just arbitrarily going off and reminiscing over his revelations in Shinra's basement when you return to Nibelheim in the present after Cosmo Canyon, something Jenova wasn't there for nor would care about such things.
As for the idea of host bodies, that was never even a thing Jenova actively utilized. What Ifalna said was that Jenova mimicked dead loved ones of the past to get closer to her victims, eradicating many and infecting some with a virus that just turned them into monsters. Rather than needing to assimilate people like The Thing, she reads the memories of her victims and shapeshifts to get closer to them. When Shinra discovered Jenova years back, what they found was never indicated or implied to be some unfortunate host, but was just the last form she she took before being trapped.
As for whether it's bad writing or not, That is up to you to decide. For me, while I think it'd be a bit contrived if Sephiroth was the only person who could just will himself to not diffuse into the Lifestream, there is precedent in VII's world for this that makes it easier to swallow. You had the Nyum Nyum Ancients' spirits in the TotA, the Gi Tribe, and the Beginner's Hall ghosts all also refusing to join with the Lifestream. It's not really something exclusive to Sephiroth alone. And the reason why he could do so much after the fact is just a product of him absorbing some spiritual energy and knowledge within the Lifestream to become even more powerful rather than being a guy who was just that much of Gary Stu from the get go.
Him having a strong will is ultimately just something to play into the themes revolving around Cloud's journey of overcoming his own weaknesses of mind and finding the strength to overcome the man who he once idolized (both physically and the influence Sephiroth had held over him throughout most of the story), culminating in that spiritual/metaphysical duel at the end of the game.
I see you are a man of class by renaming Red XIII to Nanaki, then relishing when the Cosmo Canyon NPC confronts you and Cloud says "Nanaki is Nanaki?"
Something I always heard and liked about 3 is that "conceptually", it's a miserable dying world and in the context of Miyazaki only wanted to do one game (1 Dark Souls), it's a a series that wants to die and the painted worlds is the idea of NEW possibilities that aren't bond by the rules of the original
"When the world rots, we set it afire.
For the sake of the NEXT WORLD.
It's the one thing we do right, unlike THOSE FOOLS on the outside."
I tend to like this idea and that Miyazaki wants to make more games in the same formula but still being new and not constraint by lore and other such things.
Although I am curious of what Plague of Gripes thinks about Elden RIng or hopes to see in it.
This take totally baffles me. The painting isn’t a different state of affairs it’s merely a microcosm of the outside world, with the same phenomenon going on inside Ariandel that’s going on outside. In no way is the Ringed City DLC ending presented as an “alternative” to the game’s actual ending, you still need to face the final boss and complete the game
DS3 is written as a criticism of itself.
That which is not allowed to die becomes further corrupted.
@@NamelessKing1597 I don't agree with this perspective at all. I see DS3's plot as an outgrowth of DS1's themes about letting nature run its course and the consequences of not doing so.
@@soarel325 Isn't that basically exactly what I said? The two aren't mutually exclusive, both line up perfectly.
@@NamelessKing1597 I do not consider DS3 a type of meta-commentary. I think it's a comment within the setting.
With stuff like the Cowboy Bebop live action adaptation and the like, I've always been one to say "the original is still there", but as much as I can say that and try to take it within its own context, the fact that you *know* there's more to the franchise (especially when that 'more' is really stupid) does affect your overall experience. One of the best things about the internet and online discussion is the fact that it keeps a record of people's perception of media like a kind of time capsule. Everyone experiences stories differently depending on context like you mentioned, but it's cool that you can kind of vicariously experience a story at different stages of its being by looking back on the general zeitgeist as the time. Imagine people like 10 years from now, listening to you talk about Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3 without the context of 4, 5, 6, and the Dark Souls Remake and the Compilation of Dark Souls and - okay you get what I mean.
Great video as usual, I wish you the best and I hope things get better.
netflix cowboy bebop is a poor example as it was a objective failure which was rejected by even non fans so will never hold any power over the anime+movie
@@EddDoubleDD Fair enough, I guess Bebop was one of the more extreme examples since Plague was talking more about sequels/remakes as opposed to adaptations, but my point still stands. I haven't seen the live action Bebop, but I know about a handful of scenes and some key changes... so 25 year old Radical Ed is always gonna be in the back of my mind when watching any form of Bebop, and that kinda sucks. It doesn't ruin the original by any means, it's just a dumb little brainworm that I can't forget.
The Netflix death note will haunt me forever, any time I see anything death note related.
@@crimsonpotemkin learn to laugh at embarrassment
@@crimsonpotemkin honestly, with Netflix Deathnote, I think it's actually so different (and kind of hilarious) to the point that it barely even registers in my mind when I think about the actual anime, so I'd say that's a bit of a unique case for me.
I always thought the jenova theory was even simpler than that. Jenova can manipulate people's subconscious. It's the whole reason the reunion happens and why all the mind control stuff with cloud happens. Chances are Sephiroth wasn't an exception. So Sephiroth gets this feeling that he has to go on this mission, gets too close to the reactor and the influence gets stronger. The sudden interest in his creation and subsequent freak out were likely Jenova influencing him to get her out of the reactor so they can merge and she can reform herself.
After that point, personally I think the only time you ever see the real sephiroth again is the duel at the very end. It's out of nowhere and happens after the real fight ends, it seems like it's the real Sephiroth trying to see how far Cloud has come and to get one fair swordfight without BS gimmicks. A classic passing of the torch scenario.
Yeah, that's basically canon. Basically, Sephiroth does his thing in Nibelheim, falls into the lifestream, and seemingly dies. It's ambiguous if he's still conscious in the crystal or not, but that's basically the 'end' of Sephiroth. Then when you attack Shinra HQ, Cloud finds the decapitated body of Jenova and that causes it to activate. It's unclear if Sephiroth is controlling the body or not, but, either way, the actual body in the tube breaks out because Cloud was there and then it takes the form of Sephiroth to kill the Shinra President and that starts the whole quest.
Every time after that, whenever you see Sephiroth or something he's done, it's the Jenova body just taking the form of Sephiroth because the real Sephiroth is just a legless body stuck in a crystal somewhere. Heck, even before you find it, you see Sephiroth, the Jenova body, turn into Barret to get the Black Materia. It was never the real Sephiroth, this is just something Jenova can do. And then you fight the final boss, which is MAYBE the real Sephiroth because it uses his torso, but again, it's super ambiguous who is actually in control or if there's even really much of a difference now.
Personally, the way I see it, I think it was Sephiroth all along, he just somehow managed to take control of Jenova after falling into the Lifestream. And because of that, when the last piece he was near, the one inside Cloud, gets to the corpse, it lets him take control, which is why it specifically becomes Sephiroth. So when you fight Sephiroth at the end after the final boss it's basically Cloud severing that connection and finally ridding himself of Sephiroth's influence as a way to finally put the past behind him and move on with his life.
And then, of course, Holy activates, judges humanity, and it's implied that mankind dies to save the planet, going against the Shinra idea of harming nature in mankind's self-interest by having humanity self-sacrifice to save the world. But all of that's just kind-of ruined by literally anything post original FF7... well... existing. I guess Holy just let us go free and everyone just left Midgard for no reason at all. Because screw themes, we need sequels.
I see that final duel with Sephiroth is being purely mental, with Cloud fighting against the last remnants of Jenova's influence still inside him (by that point he's the last person on the planet who possesses Jenova cells, if I remember it correctly), which are desperately trying to take over so it can keep itself alive, as its body, and possibly the remnants of Sephiroth's body, had been completely destroyed.
It takes Sephiroth's form because it's the form it has been using the whole game to manipulate and mess with Cloud (the whole "a form you're comfortable with" trope), but Cloud defeats it in their metaphysical duel, and by doing that he eliminates the last remnants of Jenova within himself.
@@dethhollow I’ve been convinced by the video, and further convinced by your comment, to assume everything after the original FF7 should be considered fan-fiction. It’s all so much more enjoyable, meaningful, and creepy for Sephiroth to have died, and the rest of the time it’s this unknowable alien being running the show. And humanity sacrificing itself to save the planet wasn’t something I picked up on when I played this all those years ago. That’s SUCH a more powerful ending.
I think relegating everything after 7 to the category of fan-fiction makes all of that easier to enjoy too. It becomes ok for it to be different, not make sense, and even to be wrong; it’s just fan-fiction. I can enjoy it on its own merits instead of tying it in to the source material..
@@gido9467As far as I'm concerned, everything after the original FF7 is the "GT" (as in Dragon Ball) of FF7. Just to be clear, that's not a good thing, and I don't consider it canon ;)
@gido9467 it's not implied that humanity died at all.. that's the real fanfiction. Just because midget isn't habited doesn't mean there isn't a whole world out there beside midgar.
Why do so many people believe VII's ending was the "bad" end? Midgar existed solely because a evil megacorp was actively killing the earth and basically took over the world and ruled it with a iron fist so everyone had to work for them. How is that evil city a literal blight on the world map having become overrun with nature/life while showing you XIII having some children of his own after what happened to his father in any way "bad"???
Because for some bizarre reason people think all human life was killed off. Somehow they miss the obvious "People learned their lesson and abandoned that S-hole to live in peace with nature", or at least stopped being so exploiting nature to the Nth degree.
All cuz they see Red XIII and not a person.
Maybe because it is 500 years later and all characters except for Red XIII are long dead?
@@albertzinger7132 and it shows the player that life can spring from even the most barren wasteland but I guess it's easy to forget the main themes of the game
@@albertzinger7132 Vincent would still be alive. In fact that's a central theme of Red's short story that was released as apart of an anthology to promote Advent Children where Vincent basically tells him that he'll have him for company in the coming centuries, so he won't be _completely_ alone.
@@thelaughingrouge It was also incredibly ironic how meteor's ground zero location was directly over Midgar itself.
The fabrication of the Undead Legend that Oscar gives you was probably invented not too long before the beginning of the game and LONG after Gwyn's departure. This was something RUclipsr Hawkshaw pointed out in his big Timeline of Dark Souls project. The Way of White in Thurolund is run by Allfather Lloyd, Gwyn's uncle. For all of Gwyn's faults, the biggest injustices commonly attributed directly to him are all likely acts taken by the people he left behind. Even the un-deification of his firstborn was *absolutely* done by someone else, as we know Gwyn left his powers of sunlight to his children right before he left to link the flame, and since we know the firstborn is the one with sunlight powers, he must have been exiled after his father's disapperance. My interpretation is that the shepherding of humans and the cruelty of the Undead Legend is a pact between the remaining gods of Lordran (Gwyndolyn specifically) and the Way of White church in Thorulund, to perpetually kindle the flame and maintain current societal power structures for as long as possible.
Yeah people like to write off Gwyn as this purely evil monster who hated humanity and wanted them to all be burned in the first flame.
@@hatefulgaming1800 Ringed City and how early the dark sign appears suggest that he, at least, played a role, even if those who came after took it way further.
@@jbark678 Well honestly the ringed city wasnt that bad, in exchange for staying in the ringed the Pygmys got an eternal city that lasted till the end of time with one of Gwyn’s daughters. Also the dark sign is more likely to be an act of Lloyd.
You have to underatand that nothing in a work of fiction was "probably" anything. A work of fiction is inorganic and does not require causality. The legend is a supposition on the part of the community with no concrete beginning. This is really important when interpreting fiction because you can not use linear reasoning to reach any conclusions about the games story.
@@jbark678 Isn’t the whole point of this video that we shouldn’t be factoring anything after the original Dark Souls into equations like these?
I could never buy into the theory that it was Jenova that was behind all of the events in FF7 to be honest. In the original game Hojo outright even says that Sephiroth's will refused to be dissolved into the Lifestream when the gang is at the northern crater and that his theory that all of the Sephiroth clones would congregate at the Shin-Ra building where Jenova's corpse is kept was totally wrong. They ended up being summoned to the crater where Sephiroth's body was being crystalized. Sure both him and Jenova have similar goals (suck the lifeforce out of the planet and potentially moving onto other planets to do the same) but it only really makes sense that Sephiroth was manipulating all of the events in the game. I will say though it's really annoying how flanderized his character has become to the point of being Cloud's stalker ex when in the original, outside of manipulating him to get the black materia, he ultimately doesn't give a shit about Cloud and the party for the most part.
I basically agree with everything you’re saying, tho I feel the flanderization of Sephiroth more so comes from memes than anything. Then again I became a more recent FF7 fan compared to others and finished it then a month or two later got Remake, but in my perspective I never saw Sephiroth in Remake as a stalker ex type, but afterwards watching videos understood how easy it was to make that joke.
Man, that bit on projecting yourself into the characters vs the writers being explicit was really insightful. Nice work!
Also, sorry for all your hardships. Hang in there.
You mentioned that Dark Souls 2 has introduced different concept for hollowing, like a person becomes hollow when they lose their purpose, which is not true, this concept was introduced in DS1 and some NPCs are affected by it, some of them never "die" but go hollow anyways, like crestfallen warrior, some of then are just hanging on a thread between complete despair and insanity, so the aspect of memories and purpose in DS2 was not exactly new, it was just explored more thoughtfully in that game.
Crestfallen knight:
Onion knight:
Solaire:
Was it not always there?
Splinter of the Mind's Eye was a sequel book to A New Hope that was written before The Empire Strikes Back. They wrote it to continue the story if the movie bombed.
So if you want to see an alternative direction that the Star Wars universe could have gone it... you can read that lol
There is one thing that Dark Souls 3 did I enjoyed significantly more than 1. ‘The End of Flame’ ending; I like that it lets you end the First Flame, without having that outcome shackled to you becoming the Dark Lord. Not a big fan of the Dark Lord approach in DS1, but that’s just me.
I like that too. That quiet moment of complete darkness at the end, just you and the Firekeeper alone at the end of an Age... It's honestly my favorite ending.
Yeah but the point of there being the dark lord ending was to show that neither of the endings were done completely of your free will, Frampt and Kaathe manipulating you to either options.
@@hatefulgaming1800 Kaathe mamipulated you inti becoming the dark lord i think. The dying words of Yuria pretty much confirms this
why is there a ds3 image in the thumbnail? how exactly did it fail as sequel (i feel like that is a very minority opionion)
@@samaritan29 It is. It's not one I share myself. Same with FF7R.
33:15 This reminded me of the creator of True Detective who went on Instagram after Season 3 was over and answered questions about some things that went unanswered in the finale. I'm not gonna say it ruined the season but I really felt like his answers stole away the mystique that the finale left us with.
Ah I knew purposefully avoiding that was a good idea. Sorry you had to go through that bud, I'd wipe it if I could.
Okay so I'm not the only one who felt Sephiroth was shoehorned in the remake. It's such a departure from the original it hurts. Sephiroth at this point in the original never even appears, but is only mentioned here and there. He's more of an ethereal concept than a person at this point. But yeah remake went all in on the fan fiction stuff and it didn't help the story at all. I was far more interested in the characters of avalanche and Midgar itself and how they were expanded.
Thar has more to do with the fact that the remake is as much a remake as it is a continuation. It's not exactly like the original because it isnt trying to be.
@@tigerfestivals5137 Then why have "Remake" in the title?
@@sheenyhive to sell the game duh
@@JM-gs5oc So basically they lied is what you're saying
@@sheenyhive If i am not mistaken [heard this quite a while], they mention the "re-make" in the title has double meaning.
I've actually always been a fan of the idea that the real Sephiroth in FF7 was dead, long dead, before you ever pick up the controller. And that what you're dealing with are puppets made by Jenova because as you said, it's a shapeshifting alien, the cells turn people into its perfect host, which happened to be Sephiroth. It made the final battle in his memory against Sephiroth in the one v one fight a bit more important, that you're finally putting an end to this nonsense in Clouds mind, putting the ghost of Sephiroth and the larger issues Cloud had, to rest finally. Then again, I don't like the idea that they'd use that as an excuse to bring Seph back as 'good marketing lad' cause lord knows they'll try it.
My problem with that is like he said in the video: it doesn’t exactly match the themes of the game. Sephiroth *is* a representation of clouds mental issues, so on paper you could have him there in name alone… but jenova doesn’t represent anything except the device that gave sephiroth a reason to commit the inciting incident. Having jenova *be* clone sephy, actual jenova limbs, jenova synthesis, and safer sephiroth doesn’t add anything to the story, but having cloud physically defeat a representation of his mental problems and then a mental representation is perfect.
I would subscribe to a theory of there being no sephiroth or jenova anymore. In the process of sephy dying and fusing with jenova, both became one entity due to hojo experiments and jenova’s will. Lol I don’t think that adds anything except to give jenova *some* agency in the plot whereas if she were just controlled by sephiroth she’s have none, but I think it’s cool.
@@maninblack3410 eh I disagree keep in mind Jenova moves the story along by simply being the catalyst that causes everything to happen to begin with... she was there at the beginning destroying the ancients and she is there at the end attempting to finish what she started before she froze over. The story isn't and never was about Cloud and Sephiroth but instead was a critical look at the world and how living things often times shape AND destroy it. The Ancients, Aerith, and Bugenhagens machine are all critical showings of this theme, Sephiroth and Cloud are merely vessels within the plot to spice it up and by extension Clouds own mental breakdown sub theme that is found littered all throughout the game benefits from Sephiroth not actually being alive, because he doesn't need Sephiroth to be alive to warp his thoughts, his mental fractured mind is already consumed by Sephiroth and thats why at the end Cloud fights Sephiroth one last time, one on one, two swords, two soldiers, to the death in a mental space surreal and unlike anything before it... a clear showing that the fractured mental projection Cloud had of the "Great and Invisible" Sephiroth was no longer that in his eyes nor his mind... Cloud finally thanks to Tifa and his own Sub Conscious... gets a hold of himself... realizes who he is... and stands up against the the man that consumed him all this time... but even then after all that its Aerith and the Lifestream that protect and save the planet.. and at the very VERY end... we see Midgar... consumed by nature... a showing that all life will continue even when we are gone.
@@sanityswept2898 that’s a pretty hefty interpretation. I think it’s a fine interpretation if that’s what you like, but imo taking the backdrop themes and throwing out all the main characters’ themes and saying the story is about that backdrop instead is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
To be perfectly honest, unless the japanese version bas seriously altered text there is no other way to interpret the story. Sephiroth is dead for most of the story. Cloud killed him in the flashback. It's a more interesting questions whether the sephiroth in the crystal in North Crater is or is not the original sephiroth coming back to life. Everything before that is pretty clear cut.
Considering how Jenova is inspired by The Thing, I guess the relation between Sephiroth and Jenova is ambivalent, but there might have eventually been alteration as Sephy became the golden boy who had to match the fan fiction images of power.
There were cutscenes where Ifalna says that Jenova used to transform to the loved ones of people and using mind tricks to control people. It wouldn't be surprising that Sephiroth is just another physical manifestation or strange fusion of Sephy's desires and Jenova's nature.
Making Sephiroth just one powerful dude with cool jacket just feels downgrade from that ambivalent alien-thing.
"And the thing in the middle is just an iron poker to stoke the fire. It's not a fucking coiled sword, why would it be a sword?" I love those sassy moments when you call out things that don't make sense.
I mean, why would estus need to be stoked? We know it isn’t fire
I mean while Vader being Luke's father is still debated Lucas has said it was a little premeditated since Vader does translate to father in dutch
He wrote many many stories and did poor draft up to six stories at one point
Vader was also not some lackey, he was pretty much the black night mons le, considered among the top positions of the empire and Obi was called a general by Leia
There was always sprinkles of lore around the movies
This was a great video to listen to while slaving away at work. I really enjoyed that ending speech at the end of the video that was about how context changes as we change. I'm really impressed by the writing of this particular video.
The more lore accurate reason (not real accurate) that Obi-wan talks about Darth Vader as though it's his name is because Obi-wan actually believes it to some degree. He views Darth Vader as a separate person entirely, which is why he's hellbent that he cannot be redeemed. He's also trying to keep Luke from knowing the truth. It's not that Obi-wan is trying to demean Vader in some way - he really thinks of Anakin [the person that he was] as dead. He loved Anakin enough that he cannot reconcile his best friend being the same person who became Darth Vader. Vader actually feels the same way, or at least tries to convince himself that he does, just like Obi-wan. Both of them know that Anakin is Vader, but Vader cannot admit to himself that he is Anakin because of what that meant, and Obi-wan couldn't admit that either for the same reason.
I think something that really helped with with Star Wars being somewhat retconned by the following movies (as in the OT and the prequels) as opposed to other series is that the original movie actually falls very neatly into place with the changes to the original story. One example is when Obi-wan says he doesn't seem to remember owning a droid. By pure chance the way Alec Guinness delivers that line, he does it in a way that can easily be seen as him telling R2 to STFU. Him doing that fits neatly with R2's memory never being wiped, as R2 would be the one individual outside of Bail Organa, Yoda, and Obi-wan that would know the truth of what actually happened. Even something like the midichlorians really doesn't retcon anything in the original movie. When Qui-gon talks about them, he says that without them "we would have no knowledge of the force." They're just a conduit to use the force, the force being an energy field surrounding all living things, as explained by Obi-wan, doesn't change in a contradictory way (in fairness though, Lucas always had some concept of midichlorians in the back of his mind, even when working on the originals). They may have retconned some things, but all of the changes make sense in the context of the way the first movie is presented. Nothing in the OT or the prequels directly contradicts episode 4.
Star Wars also has the benefit that while a lot of details in the backstory changed after the first movie, the general gist of stuff stays the same. Lucas's first concept of Star Wars was the fight between Vader and Obi-wan in some form. Originally it was just supposed to have been inside a volcano, not on a whole planet of them. The clone wars were completely different in concept, however as they were supposed to end with the rise of the empire, changing the details doesn't affect the original since it was never explained.
I don't think Dark Souls has the same benefits in comparison. Some stuff in DS2 isn't directly contradictory to the first game in the way it was originally presented, but a lot of it was. DS3 threw it all out the window. I suppose the explanation is that the people in the first game simply don't know enough about the world they live in to accurately describe it, but then why would out of universe lore explanations on items be wrong as well? Dark Souls was clearly meant to be a single game. Star Wars on the other hand was meant as a single movie that could be continued if it was successful. I think the real problem with adding stuff ruining originals later occurs only when there was never meant to be anything more. Star Wars had some plans, even if they changed over time. Dark Souls had none.
i thought about this once before for Devil May Cry 5, mostly cuz that one time Pat said something similar to "if we had got Devil May Cry 5 earlier, like if Capcom didnt just suddenly stop for a decade, we'd have a whole different story." and thats something to think about.
how would new sequels to old stuff hold up if they arent made with the same mindset from the original?
can it only be done if a sequel was already planned and just never got to go anywhere, but the story was somewhat laid out?
the closest we have to something like that, if it is to be believed, is Metroid Dread as one of the first things Sakamoto said was that it was the same story he originally wanted so long ago. i wonder how true that is, but there are particular points in the game that made me go "ok, yeah. this feels like the next step after Fusion." while other parts made me go "hmm, i dont know about that. its not lore breaking, just a little odd." although the one thing im not letting go is the retcon that the Zero Suit has always been a thing even when Samus was a babby adopted by the Chozo.
Man, the more I think about Dread's plot, the more irritated I get. The most "I-cannot-believe-the-writers-didn't-notice-this" moment was the relationship between the Metroids, the Toha and the warrior clan. The Metroids were created to fight X, but the Toha programmed them to hate the warrior clan... why? The warrior clan only turned against the Toha after the Metroids got out of control. I much prefer when the Chozo were vague and mysterious in previous games.
Oh and the villain keeps Quiet Robe alive because he wants him to control Metroids... even though the Toha completely lost control back on SR388.
@@ultraspinalki11 this is one of those things i wish was asked in a most-release interview of some kind. lol. cuz only the story writer could explain the "hidden details" they forgot to put in to make sense of things.
@@ArcRay20 To make things worse... this new lore undermines past lore. If Toha can control Metroids (in their jellyfish stage apparently), and Toha DNA is what kept Samus from going berserk in Fusion.... then does this mean the relationship between the baby Metroid and Samus was not genuine? Before Dread, the Baby Metroid was seen as proof that the species was not all about devouring everything because it showed concern over Samus' well-being, but the new lore very well implies that the Baby might have been merely obeying the Toha genes inside Samus...
Like... I'm happy that Dread was a success, but damn did it taint the lore.
@@ultraspinalki11 but as Dread revealed at the end, she has genes of both tribes. which would be reason enough, retroactively, as to why no Metroid is chill around her. except for the little baby Metroid, because it imprinted on her. despite how baby enemies normally act in Nintendo games. lol. BUT thats just my 2 bits. ALSO this wouldnt be the first time the canon was kind of weird for a game. i still need to find the list, but there are a bunch of important details to the plot that are MISSING that make Other M not make sense to exist in the current Metroid timeline. one of the problems being that she had killed Ridely 5 times before Other M, but acts surprised and has PTSD like its so shocking that he came back AGAIN. which means it is ignoring the Prime games ever happened. and EVEN THEN she should have had the PTSD the first time encountering after already killing him TWICE, though now its retroactively 3 times thanks to the Metroid 2 remake. lol.
@@ArcRay20 But doesn't Samus having both tribes' genes convolutes things? I mean, couldn't she had as much chances going berserk in Fusion because she has the warrior clan genes that Metroids hate? I can't help but chuckle knowing that this whole "Toha+warrior genes" thing is tied to the out-of-the-blue lore on Metroids being programmed to hate a specific group of Chozo for no reason when their main goal was to kill X.
Even Dread's ending is affected by this. When the imitation of Quiet Robe allows itself to be absorbed by Samus, it calms down her Metroid genes... which shouldn't be the case considering she had reached the "out of control" state seen on higher evolved Metroids which the Toha are powerless against (she even has the carapace and red eye-like spots on her armor like Gamma, Zeta, etc). Basically, the Toha genes given to her at the end should have had zero effect, if we are to accept what Quiet Robe and Raven Beak told us earlier.
I am so glad you survived the Kentucky tornados. Thank you so much for your efforts, Plague. It's frankly amazing that you've put in so much effort to continue providing us with content in these awful times.
Lavos was always more interesting than Jenova to me despite it seeming being from the same creative thought tank...
Sepheroth is simply a human face to make a seemingly unsurmountable threat more manageable...
Magus from Chrono Trigger was and remains a better approach for what Sepheroth should have been...
In CT Lavos was an alien invader to the plant, but for humanity he was much worse... He is God...
Nothing Magus or any of the other characters could ever do would change that fact... You can kill Lavos body but until every last human is also dead and gone the treat of Lavos will always remain...
This is one of the reasons I always liked the storyline of Chrono Cross so much as the only real solution was to force Lavos to actually care about the creations it made beyond just stepping stones in it's evolution between worlds...
Jenova was so dumbed down by contrast that you go from a literal god to a man without any concept of self identity as the threat... 😑
I feel like getting killed three times by the same guy is pretty good grounds for holding a grudge.
I'm not subscribed because I want to hear you being pretentious (you aren't. Or we both are) I'm subscribed because I enjoy your opinions and reasoning. The villains video, especially the part about Nox is one of my all time favorites. I think you give voice to many of us without one. And you have my sympathy about the last two months. I can only imagine how difficult it is to have family like you do. The talk about remakes reminds me of a very brief clip from a Redlettermedia Plinkett video about fraudulent sequels and remakes made 20 years after the original. We need to keep talking and criticizing these things otherwise nothing will change and I appreciate that. Oh yeah and I think you're funny. Your ability to describe things like the ffx video and sarcastic delivery of things like "his dad named him Darth, how embarassing!" Are really funny to me.
PlagueOfGripes casually dropping a 55 minute stealth plug for his twitch channel: the movie
Ive run into this pretty frequently as a fan of horror films. At some point especially with franchise horror flicks, a shark WILL be jumped. Its inevitable. IDK if this is a good thing or not but I tend to enjoy the individual works in a sort of context vacuum. The originals are what they are to me. I think about the time they came out and what the individual elements of that work are and how they come together. Then when a sequel/remake is released, the original exists because it has to and we go from there.
I'm not going to let the dumbass fire sperm monsters in Freddy's Dead or...literally anything in any Hellraiser sequel ruin what those originals mean to me. Just the same way I wont let the new take on FF7 take away what that world and characters are to me. I wont let some IP holders change how I look at art I love. I refuse. This is an individual thing and I dont think this attitude makes me better or smarter than folks who cant divorce newer contexts from old work or anything like that but it sure has helped me enjoy things more all around. I tend to be less mad at sequels or remakes trying new things because I can and will just ignore them if they suck.
This was a great video though. More than anything I just want to see new shit being made. I am so tired of suits trying to sell me shit I've experienced already and have actively started avoiding remakes unless they offer something to entice me. The IP isnt enough anymore. That well has run dry. Thanks again for the good video and I hope things start getting better for you.
Really, the problem, as always, is other people. I do try to enjoy life by myself but when a friend or family member or co-worker wants to discuss something and the newest iteration is the defacto experience it can be difficult. There are adults who's entire conception of star trek youtube essay videos about ds9 and half a season of discovery. I remember overhearing classmates talking about doctor who, I thought they meant tom baker because I remembered my father watching old series, but they were talking about the 10th. This is fine, but they didn't really know about what the series used to be. I guess I mean it's tough to handle when something which used to be definitive has been supplanted by the newest version.
I've got an entirely separate point on remakes, and people being upset when a shit remake gets released:
when there's a drastically changed and/or poorly done remake, people will often say "well the original still exists. the new one doesn't erase the old one. you can still go back and watch/play/read it." this completely ignores that now the remake has taken the place where a better version could have existed. to people who don't like the new version, they have been robbed of a theoretical good/faithful remake.
in this case, there's not going to be another FF7 remake for decades, if ever. there's not going to be that faithful recreation. there's never going to be that Trials Of Mana remake of Seiken Densetsu 3 but for FF7. the chance for such a thing has come and gone, and instead we're left with time ghosts and a giant fucking midgar-eclipsing spirit colossus tornado monster that FF7R had for the final boss of the first game.
Kind of feel that way toward what bluepoint did with the demon soul remake soundtrack. Sure i can still listen to the old songs (through not in the game itself) but i dont get to see modernised versions of these songs that embrace and expand on the original vision.
I can understand your frustration, but it's hard to say you were robbed of something that was never going to exist in the first place.
I played the original FF7 for the first time, paid full attention to everything (even looked up the original JP script at times) and 100%'d it pretty much and still loved the remake.
Yeea it would have been cool to have a super faithful adaptation like any game, but I'm happy with what I experienced.
Like how we could have gotten a GOOD Live-Action Cowboy Bebop. The "new fans" like it because they were never exposed to the whole gimmick of staying up to like 12am or waking up around 4am to get ready for school and watching it. Or being an adult and watching it normally. They missed out on that. They got "Sunny-D" version of Bebop while we have Orange Juice. Then people go "A 1 to 1 adaption would be boring" No it wouldn't because it'll be in 3D and the perspectives would be different. Yet it seems like "adaption" or "remakes" feel like red flags too often than not now. We expect failure now and too often we're right even if we're quiet about it.
Dark souls 2 was apparently meant to be a king's field reboot but later became a Dark souls sequel. Might explain why it's so disconnected from 1 if that rumour is true.
Huh so that means i can play DS2 without knowing anything of the "prequel", nice.
That's false though. Thanks to interviews with the first director and development team we know that Dark Souls 2 was always meant to be a continuation of DS1. No mention of an Kings Field Remake/Sequel has ever been stated by Fromsoftware
It seems like a forever ago I found your Dark Souls summary video and Huge Quest vid. I appreciate your stuff man and wish you a merry christmas
lmao the first few minutes of this aged well.
I really liked how DS1 left it so ambiguous exactly what the "Age of Dark/Age of Man" would even be. Looking at DS1 in a vacuum, we don't really know if the Age of Dark would be a more literal change or a metaphorical one. It could end with the whole world swallowed by the Abyss and ultimately destroyed, or it could just be that the world remains largely unchanged but is now run by immortal, undead humans instead of Gwyn's ilk who called themselves "gods". It could even be something between those two, or something else entirely, but the point is we DON'T KNOW. That's what makes it a compelling choice; we know that we're being manipulated into linking the flame and prolonging the Age of Fire, but we have to guess and make assumptions about whether the Age of Dark would be any better, just as bad, or worse. Oolacile and New Londo paint a grim picture, but those can be rationalized as humans misusing and exploiting sources of humanity (with Oolacile tormenting Manus until he went murderously insane and New Londo's Darkwraiths killing other humans for their Humanity, respectively). We don't know if a "natural" Age of Dark would be like that, but we don't know it wouldn't either.
The later games ruin that. Dark Souls 2 introduces the whole "cycle" concept, giving us the idea that the world is apparently SUPPOSED to follow an "Age of Ancients > Age of Fire > Age of Dark > Repeat" pattern over and over forever. Linking the flame now seems like it was strictly a big evil because it subverts the order of the universe, which ruins the whole choice at the end of DS1.
3 makes this EVEN MORE CONFUSING by showing us what an actual Age of Dark would look like when we visit Untended Graves: the whole world is engulfed in Abyss and everything just kind of sucks. So now it seems like the Age of Dark was the bad thing all along, but the linking of the flame is still unnatural and barely even works anymore if 3's own Link the Fire ending is to be believed. Adding the "Age of Hollows" thing on top of it all just adds confusion. Is it just the Age of Dark by another name, or something else entirely? You could argue that the vagueness of the Age of Hollows ending is trying to capture the uncertainty that DS1's original ending used to have, but with the context of the entire series behind it it's just too confusing to be compelling.
In terms of mechanics and gameplay I love all of the Dark Souls games, and in that respect I'm glad we got all of them that we did, but narratively everything after DS1 is a complete mess. Looking at how nicely Bloodborne's self-contained narrative works comparatively makes me hopeful that From Soft will take advantage of this new start they're getting with Elden Ring. Hopefully we'll have a grand new story to uncover, and I pray any hypothetical sequels to it will be narratively accounted for from the outset.
Yeah the DS1 Age of Dark ending felt like “We don’t know what will happen, but we cannot put it off forever. Might as well rip that bandaid off now”
You said it really well.
I hate playing DS2. Its the only Souls game I won't go back too anymore. But its story gets a lot of undeserved shit. Cycles wasn't introduced by DS2. Linking the flame? That's a cycle. I never felt that 2 was saying linking the flame is strictly evil. It was an action with long lasting consequences, just like in the 1st game. Some creatures, like gods and most humans will be better off for a while. Others like some humans would be better off if the 1st flame went out.
DS3 to me also had a good story. Ironically its more in line with Plague's headcanon that there was a limited amount of souls in DS1. We've already seen some ways the light soul affects time with Oolicile spells. We've seen time be convoluted. Warriors from different times and straight up time travel in 1. Now by the time 3 rolls around even space is convoluted. My take on this is that even the dark soul is starting to fade after being fed to the 1st flame so much. Since its a physical aspect of the world, the lands or physical part of the world are being pulled to the flame with it.
The Age of Dark is just the state of the world the Age of Men is just humans ruling in that Age of Dark. The Age of Hollows is humans taking control of the all powerful fire for themselves as stated by Yuria. It’s just a more advanced form of what Kaathe had originally envisioned.
Also the Age of Dark actually being dark was pretty much confirmed from the time of the first game. As Miyazaki confirms the first flame and the sun itself are linked. In DS1’s design works interview when talking about Solaire’s quest.
@@Brandonious15987 But cycle wasn't introduced in 1 either. There might be passing thoughts, but it's just that: passing thoughts. They neither confirmed nor deny that linking the First Flame will cause all those events to repeat, because for all we know it might just burn everything and end the world in fire.
Dont forget that Gwyn also had a secret 4th child that nobody else knew about, who had little to no lore outside of been the secret child of Gwyn, and only purpose was to be a plot device to take us to the final area in the DLC to fight some guy that we barely knew.
The 4th child, so easily forgotten....
But she's a reference to Angel's Egg so it's fine.
Yikes. That was a tough experience Plague. Hope everything is better now.
Hello Plague! Long time fan/watcher. Regarding your point around the 39:00 minute mark regarding players being able to project themselves into characters, my favorite example comes from fallout new Vegas. I find the story of that game compelling not only as a result of its masterful environmental storytelling and brilliant writing, but because the game leaves you with so much room for interpretation about your own character. Practically the only thing you know about yourself is that you happened to be delivering a package when some guy in a tacky suit shot you in the head. Everything else is up to your interpretation. I really like this approach to player-character design as opposed to fallout 4, which establishes a clear background and motivation for the player character that I found less compelling than creating my own. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the game if you’ve played it. And I’d love to see you play it if not.
its unfortunate that Lonesome Road for New Vegas had all that hamfisted writing for Ulysses where he tells you all about your past; i think that DLC does a huge disservice to anybody that's trying to anyone trying to make a different story for their Courier
@@joshuagiordano593 I mostly agree. I always try to chalk it up to Ulysses imagining what the courier must have been like, or presenting his own interpretation of his actions. He very well could have just been delivering another package. But I do think that adding any additional information about your player character before the events of the game is annoying and does a disservice to the game. That being said, I like the Ulysses character and story line enough to forgive his impact on my interpretation of the player character.
Oof, that COVID rant didn't age well
Hold on, I remember that in the Ringed City DLC it was said that Gwyn gave that city to the pygmis as a way to control the dark sign and in turn they worshiped him.
Also, one of the things that the game implied was that the timelines were just scrambled as a way to (i think) tell us to not think about it and just fight the bosses.
It’s a very interesting topic. What you do later literally can’t affect the way the previous works were made, but the more complex whole can be affected. This goes for any creative works. If you read a book series and it builds up gradually to a climax that’s hinted at in one of the earlier books, and then that climax ends up being poorly written or dragged down by other details that readers don’t like, that affects how they feel when they encounter all of that foreshadowing on a re-read, which can make the experience soured.
THE SEPHIROTH THEORY WAS EXACTLY HOW I FELT ABOUT VII AFTER I PLAYED IT!!! The contrast between Cloud (he was a country boy with humble beginnings that failed to achieve his dream of becoming a SOLDIER) and Sephiroth (He was born, artificially, to be a hero and the strongest of us) and made for an extremely strong narrative, especially with the ending where Cloud destroys the "ideal" of sephiroth in his mind and rids himself of that idealised verison once and for all. Then the ultimania is like "duhhh sephiroth is soooo stronggg he took over jenova" like what the fuck? Since then the original game hasn't been the same for me, it ruined the best interpretation of it.
The same happened to Higurashi and to a greater extent, the whole When They Cry series when Higurashi Gou came out, by continuing the story of Matsuribayashi, completely ruining how I and many others view that games Universe and Characters, which being a VN, is heavily reliant on having strong characters. While I still personally separate Sotsugou Satoko from the original, it's hard not to feel that the sequel muddied what was already set in stone.
I actually was kind of digging what Gou was setting up. Satako not being able to accept growing up and people moving on, and her selfish desires starting to ruin the bonds around her, made sense to me how her character would continue. And the fact the situation may have resolved on its own if Eua didnt intervene for her own amusement and send Satoko into this spiral of murder makes it a great tragedy and allows Higurashi and Umineko to tie into each other. Sadly Sotsu just kinda dropped the ball entirely.
How does it ruin Umineko and Ciconia for you? I understand how they all connect but beyond the meta stuff their stories are all pretty independent of each other.
@@pyropoyo I think the continuous padding was the worst, especially in Tataridamashi with all the visits to CWS and the village meetings. And then they RECAPPED it for Sotsu, also it doesn't necessarily ruin Umineko and certainly not Ciconia but it's obviously trying to set some footing into some concepts in Umineko and the entire series severely rushed, especially Sotsu and it's measly 2 episode finale.
I also hate how overpowered Satoko appears to be in Sotsu when she's dodging katana blades and out gunning Mion, her actions feel incredibly Mary Sue-ish and they're never justified. Just because she doesn't wanna study isn't valid. I feel like there could've been a more graceful way to split Satoko and Rika apart as friends without making her seem like a selfish cunt. Not once did I ever think Satoko was right to kill all her friends and prevent a perfect world from happening. The most I can appreciate the series doing is giving Teppei some redemption and actually sweet moments with his niece. Though it only futher sements my destain for Satoko when she murders him.
@@whatsupbossanova Yeah GouSotsu's biggest issue was the retelling of Higu. I was fine with it in Gou because it was good set up for the second half of the show, but it was completely unnecessary for Sotsu. It's like they had no idea what they wanted to do so they just bought time by retelling the story again.
You could argue that Satoko just abused her looping powers to get a perfect run, it's not the worst hand wave for me but again these scenes were just kind of unneeded.
I think there was a lot more to Satoko's issues beyond "studying sucks" but for whatever reason they just don't explore that. Wasted potential all around, very disappointing.
I liked this more than I was expecting to; not because I went in with the desire to hate it, but because I went in with a somewhat apathetic but also curious mindset. But now it's pretty much succeeded at making me think more seriously about the power of context over time. Also may have unintentionally got me thinking about other topics like how marketing can change a franchise or series, or the history of Star Wars fans. But this wasn't the original reason I wanted to leave a comment. Me being the self-centered human that I am, I began trying to apply this mindset to my favorite pieces of media as well; mostly Pokemon at first. I've been debating with myself if the recontextualization of newer games has altered anyone's perception of games like Red, Blue, Gold, Silver, Ruby, Sapphire, etc. After a while, I figured that due to the franchise's history of being formulaic, there wasn't enough new context to change the way we see the older games. On one hand, this feels like a waste of time because I found a bland, obvious answer that lead nowhere, but on the other hand, I'm happy that something I care about can remain mostly intact.
But then I remembered Naruto, a series I lost interest in because of the war arc (and some stuff leading up to it too.) And suddenly a lightbulb went off and it's as if I could finally justify why I no longer enjoy the earlier half of the story like I used to. I used to say it's because "I know where all this setup is leading to." But now I can sum it up much more neatly as "context." Seeing what the story and its characters have become has added new context to what they once were, and that in its own way, as was the whole point of the video, has ruined Naruto as a whole for me.
So, long story short, thanks for giving me something to think about. Nice video, man.
First off, I am so sorry for your current situation, Plague. Both with the tornado and your family. I can somewhat relate to the feeling that you'll eventually sever ties with family and be completely on your own later in life and I wish I had words of comfort for that. If nothing else, I do appreciate your candor most of the time and value your insights into media (and also like your hot furry drawings sometimes but that's not the point). I hope your fortunes turn around someday.
As for the original question posed...yeah, I think a new thing CAN ruin the original in some cases. If a new thing comes out and supplants the old in public consciousness, that can be dangerous. If all anyone thinks about when they hear "Cowboy Bebop" is the live-action version, and to them that is the ONLY version of Cowboy Bebop, then that sucks. In the case where, oh I dunno...a remake of a video game is put out and original versions are delisted, that can also harm things as even the excuse of "Well, the original is there!" no longer applies. In a lot of cases, you can still enjoy the original thing, but now you have an asterisk applied to it. "Oh man, I love Mass Effect....1 and 2...I mean!"
I'm an uncultured swine who's barely experienced Star Wars, never played FFVII and I don't care for Souls games, so I can't weight in on those specific examples, but I'll share my own! I LOVED the original PowerPuff Girls. And then the remake came out and was awful. I could go back and watch the original, but in the corner of my mind I'll be reminded of creepy self-inserts made by writers and the episodes where the girls start twerking, or Buttercup turns into a gross blob by abusing drugs or whatever. I loved the 2000s Teen Titans show, and Teen Titans Go! makes me VERY upset. The thing that I hate the most is that there will be kids that grow up and relate to the TTG versions of characters over the original. Raven is no longer the tortured loner who eventually opens up to friends and faces her demons, becoming a happier, more complete person for it. Instead they'll remember her as the goth one that had really nice legs that Cyborg beats his meat too.
Cultural mindshare will shift, and what you grew up with or experienced first will be forgotten, or at least tainted in some way. Of course, getting older and then looking back on things can do that too, even if no new thing ever comes from it, so really...everything becomes ruined eventually. Or maybe I'm just a bit bitter. (OK, a lot bitter, but after the last two years can you blame me? :P )
Dude you kinda blew my mind. When you were describing Jenova and how it assimilates life on a planet before moving on. I was thinking "Jenova sounds a lot like lavos" then immediately you said "kinda like lavos"
Can people ruin the original?
Boruto can.
Plague, I think you're one of the coolest people on youtube and also really smart, stay strong, I don't know a single person who is happy with the way the 2020s are starting off.
Just hang in there because maybe good things await us.
Right before I actually watch it, my answer to the question is “yes” but only in how the original is related to anything else, such as the universe/storyline. It is impossible to ruin something if you only consider it by itself.
I really enjoyed this video. Thank you so much for your content as always as I like to rewatch them from time to time when I work and I really like what you bring to the table.
I think it's super nice how you bring up the aspect of contextualization as it's something that I tend to go on with my students as well, and well something we learned a lot back in my own days of art/design school.
I wouldn't necessitate say it can "ruin" an original, but certainly warp. But I think there is also a lot of work from people who try to preserve the context of these (such as yourself!) and why it's important. Even tho it's never possible to not completely warp it due to personal perception of course, as you pointed out with the history example.
It's why we had courses explaining how a Mondrian painting was seen back at at the time, or what people were trying to do when such and such art movement came to be or why someone felt the need to exhibit toilets or the soup cans during pop art. The way we see those pieces today, and even after the many reinterpretations from other people and constant tweaking of our own views is vastly different as to when they were made originally.
I hope you will have a better 2022, and sending the most positive vibes I can for now.
In regards to Dark Souls, even the original release retroactively alters the perception of itself in a fashion. Just imagine if the Artorias of the Abyss DLC had never been conceived. It could be hard to do this, since for most people who played Dark Souls, Artorias of the Abyss is just "part of the game", not something extra added to the game after its release. But if it never existed, how different would everyone's perception of Dark Souls be?
As someone similarly chained to a sinkhole of a family, no offense intended, I've always admired you beyond the pretentious character you play online. You're talented, rational and have a good sense of humor. I genuinely hope you can live your life in a more positive environment one day but I know that's easier said than done because family is still family regardless of how shitty they may be.
And yes, you can absolutely ruin the original. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying the original in a vacuum but that terrible sequel or remake will always be there. Like a little poo poo stain in the underwear of time. Even worse are idiot apologists who defend absolute trash and make the communities around the originals unbearable.
There are things I enjoy but don't talk about anymore because I don't need some idiot telling me that certain boss fights being slogs in Dark Souls 3 is _actually_ good game design because that makes it hard.
Outside of Sephiroth, most of the characters in the FF7Remake are actually objectively better written than in the original. Most of Plague's other complaints boils down to "its done different so its bad" while also claiming that "There's no correct interpretation of a story or character", which is not only a blatant contradiction but also relativistic nonsense.
Dark Souls 3 is crap though lol.
Honestly I played DS3 first and then played DS1 and I could not believe how easy it was in comparison. People kept hyping up O&S and then I fought them and it took me like 4 or 5 tries which is nothing compared to Pontiff or the nameless king. I guess it just comes down to whether you personally like boss fights being a "slog".
@@lukejones7164 even as someone who disagrees with plague on the remake i understand he and max are coming from different places, his issue with remake isnt specific to ff7 as he explains in this video, plague clearly doesnt care about sequels as a whole because the second will always be made with others in mind rather than the writer making something he/she wanted to make, even worth if its popular, does something being popular ruin it yes and no but yes because anyone trying to sell a product will always need the input of others in order for it to be acceptable by the most people
If it makes you feel better, you aren’t alone when it comes to sinkhole families
(Right after Plague went from 1:30 - 3:20 when I watched it yesterday my dad had walked in with a mask saying he had COVID now… hooray)
Interesting. I remember there is an episode of Brain Dump, a great series by Max Gilardi, about the Powerpuff Girls that goes into this question. I tend to agree with his take.
Once a bad sequel is out there, it is impossible for it not to affect how the original is viewed. You can't go back once this happens.
Even though I love the Drakengard/NieR games, I have this problem with Yoko Taro. He just keeps adding stuff to a big narrative pile, and there doesn't seem to be a preconceived plan. It's elaborate, but that's not the same as good or consistent.
That mindset of Tarro's is what made the Nier raids in FFXIV rather unbearable from a story perspective. The mechanics of the fights and the music are amazing but the actual story content is pretty much reliant on knowing a lot about Nier/Drakengard and it even serves as a continuation of story content from Automata as it's been stated it's part of the canon for that series.
Basically instead of taking the existing story and making it work as an expansion of the FFXIV lore like the Ivalice raids did they instead just made the Nier stuff feel completely disconnected from the rest of the game.
Depends on how self-encapsulating the original is. Because, for example, something like Avatar: The Last Airbender is a show that can take a bad movie or a subpar sequel series due to how you can watch the original series beginning to end and not give a shit about anything that comes after it, and you can just slap your hands together and just say that the entire franchise ended right there. With a thing like Star Wars, however, by quality of calling A New Hope episode 4, the original is now weighed down forever by its own prequel. Whether you like it or not, that number means you *have* to acknowledge that Darth Vader was once a shit kid that goes into a small rant about sand and turned to the dark side on the grounds of "do it".
Yea like how kaine was said to be trans by the author and fans seeing the campfire scene with emil as proof of that when said scene only talks about she was treated differently which was because of the shade in her body not because of her own nature
@@bob74h67 please provide the source of the author saying her to be trans
@@Deid Kaine isn’t trans but a hermaphrodite. Due to a glitch in the system her replicant body was born 90% female with the only exception being that she had a penis. It’s highly implied in her side story she was ridiculed for this as a kid
Your explanation of the Dark Spuls 1 lore is actually incredible.
Considering this video was less researched this was a really good watch. Probably because the ideas make sense regardless of whether you are right about the examples
Even Dark Souls 1 implied there is a cycle tho.
It starts with the world being dark, and kinda lifeless filled with gigantic petrified trees and dragons with petrified skin, then the first flame just lit and the inexplicable zombie people just walked up to it and attained divinity.
That doesn’t imply a “cycle” at all
No it does not. It implies that the world is ever changing with changes of eras. First the era of ancient then the era of light/gods then comes the era of man/dark. They are completly diffrent
I know that a lot of the people that loved FF7 and fanboy over Sepiroth lost their minds over every encounter with him in the remake. If Max's reactions are anything to go by. But I can't help but agree with what's said in this video in my FF7 nostalgia-deprived, onlooker brain.
Also Plague I hope things turn out for the better soon. Having that kind of family situation can't be pleasant at all, but you have people on the internet that will remember you as much more than them.
tbh id rather take sephiroth appearing alot than nemesis BARELY appearing in resident evil 3 remake.
@@thelel6591 Now that is true. But RE3 "Nemesis" kind of demands it yeah?
Its the opposite for me, from what i seen its the people that loved and played the original ff7 who actually hated that sephiroth kept appearing with a murder boner for cloud among many other things.
@@iwanfishz9 Honestly Sep being the stock crazy anime villain is already a disadvantage of his character but the remake compounds this by overusing and obsessing over him. The original worked well because he showed up sporadically, now that's he's front and center it actually devalues him. Sometimes less is more.
@@iwanfishz9 Chris from Oneyplays is one of those who hates the remake and the overuse of Sephiroth. On the opposite spectrum is Maximillian having fanboy-gasms over the remake... ugh.
I always enjoy how insightful these videos are. I always feel like I learn something new, or at least manage to fit the puzzle pieces together in a new way.
I've always saw it as "Jenova's using the image of Sephiroth since he's a much more recognizable figure as well as striking fear into the hearts of the people".
I don't have perfect memory, but I think Plague was the one who got me into Dark Souls. I bounced off it originally when I tried to spear-and-shield OnS for hours on end, and only came back after watching his let's plague on it. It's one of my favorite games now. Christmas time makes me nostalgic too, for better or worse, and this upload has me remembering high school when I still watched Let's Plays, and especially Star Siege and Defenders of Oasis. Plague also got me to think about digital art in different ways, which made me improve over the years.
Best wishes Plague. You impacted my life with your very honest and down to earth advice, and it helps me get by at times. I hope things get better.
As he the one who got you into dark souls, it was his videos that's got me into furry stuff.
Plague was both the guy that introduced me to Dark Souls memes that over time made me actually try Dark Souls a couple years later, and the one that also gave me "furry" perspective by Winnie.
Not sure how both are actually helpful, but i enjoy them and his random talks and art nonetheless
im sorry to hear what ur going thru. hope things turn out better soon
As a major Sephiroth fan girl I really feel the remake has ruined him. Not because of his new motivations but in terms of building the fear and mystery that surrounded his character in the original. I understand that he's a popular character but showing him every 5 seconds in the remake does a major disservice to him, it just feels like fanservice and it's really disappointing.
I agree, he wasn’t handled right. But he does show up in loads of places just slightly ahead of you in the original, so him taunting cloud isn’t to odd. But what is, is that he should be Jenova and barely know cloud. So this weird timeline alternate dimensions thing they’ve thrown in gives me a headache.
I've felt similarly worried or even bitter about this concept over the years, with more of a focus on modern film adaptations of novels changing the majority public perception of what the original source material meant. Although I feel I'm personally quite good at viewing a piece of work in the vacuum of what it was (and still is) and what it meant at the time, barring any future content that retroactively influences it, I know that not everybody does. As somebody who has always had the lofty pipe-dream of becoming a 'great' writer, or at least writing something that I can be proud of and probably more importantly, writing something that has a greater positive influence on its reader-base to even a small extent, I've felt frustrated and even dejected at the thought of something like The Great Gatsby being reduced to Baz Luhrmann's watered-down version which seems to ignore the development of Nick's inner-thoughts and reflection of the events of the plot while promoting Gatsby as the natural protagonist, or people feeling like watching Apocalypse Now serves as a substitute for Heart of Darkness when the film (while being a good work in and of itself) is not a good adaptation or mirroring of that novel's depth, or even popular misconceptions surrounding the meaning of Frost's The Road Not Taken irk me. I feel like an inherently un-fun person when I hear news about a Demon's Souls or Abe's Odyssey remake (or more recently, a modern remake of the 1947 movie Nightmare Alley) I can only envision some soul-less cash-grab that eradicates the heart of its predecessor, and most of the time this vision feels correct. I think that these feelings might be self-serving, perhaps my anger for who are largely dead writers is a projection of some kind of hypothetic, future anger I have in the timeline where something that I've written is ruined or simply changed, and public perception of it is ruined in turn.
In recent years I've been trying to make the effort to be less bitter, to accept that these are elements of society that I can't control, and getting worked up about everything that's outside of my control is probably just unhealthy. I know that the flawed, capitalist political structure is largely responsible for a world that promotes producing movie after movie, game after game, under the ideal that making the greatest possible sum of movie with the least possible effort is considered to be optimal (and this leaves little room for new works with creative integrity, at least when it comes to Hollywood or Triple A titles).
I think that in the end, all I can do is endeavour to read the source material and appreciate it for what it is in the instance that I read, or play, or watch some shitty adaptation or the 8th sequel to something that used to be great... and I can take solace in knowing that, although we might not be the majority, I'm not alone in this because you feel it too, and other people in the comments feel it too, and in the unlikely event where I do write something that is ruined by sequels or adaptations over time, even a small pocket of people reading my shit to get a sense of the original source material and getting anything out of it that impacts them at all, or offers them something that they enjoyed in any capacity, is more than enough for me.
Time is ever-moving, yes, and the way that we perceive art when art is altered over time is ever-changing too, but there will always be some individuals who try to maintain the sanctity of what that piece of art used to be, and what is used to mean, in their own minds at the very least.
You're a good guy, Plague. You might live in the middle of nowhere and hardly have non-familial human contact, but you do have a lot of random weirdos on the internet who irrationally care a lot about a complete stranger. If that's worth anything.
Hope things get better, and I hope you find some value in this kind of sentiment. I love your gripes, animations, speed draws, all of that stuff. You've got a way with words that is totally unique and your smooth voice is nice to listen to.
Thanks for what you do.
PlagueOfGripes,
I watched this video in its entirety and felt compelled to write this. Your Dark Souls animations sheds light in the abyss and to that end, many thanks for your contributions.
Man, before I even actually dig into this, dude, Plague, glad your hamlet wasn't leveled and I'm sorry your family are going through some major shit. I'm in a similar situation, my parents are almost 70, and I am a 30s something, childless man taking care of 2 old parents, without siblings, so I totally get how it is to juggle taking care of one, when the other gets sick or injured, or whatever. I super wish you and your family well.
Ahhh, that part about taking the same original writer and having them work on the same thing again being impossible is SUPER TRUE. I have a long standing, 10 year long short story series that I wanted to make into a novel but when I went back to the first 3 chapters, I was like "Man, I was way more optimistic and naive back then, holy shit." And then I "rewrite" it in a separate, saving the original, and looking at the new and then go "wow, I'm an asshole now, this character's actions are less plot and personality and more action and causing consequence through failure to use their personality to drive something." That's called "went to college for 6 years, got his program canceled the year he was to graduate and got a huge fucking sack of nothing but debt and that forever made him incapable of trusting others."
And that Sephiroth theory, that he is actually dead the entire time, is the one I subscribe to, that Jenova is actually the pilot of Sephiroth. He's the Gundam, she's Amuro Ray. HE mistook himself for an ancient but Cloud ices him, his memory, his abilities, and his....malice (to say he went insane from finding his inaccurate revelations in Nibelheim is an understatement) provided Jenova a new attempt at conquest. But then you have those other Jenova babies from Crisis Core (which I refuse to acknowledge lol) ruin that theory. I actually hope the FFVII Remake series does bring in Genesis and that other dude who isn't GACKT, and I don't care if they flat out go "they were failures and Jenova knew it thus, she never took their form."
Though I am curious, Sephiroth in Remake has cat eyes, now, does the REAL one have cat eyes, or is that Jenova, and that's a side effect of her taking his form, she's not able to disguise herself entirely, for whatever reason. And fuck that line about the ending when they make it to the Northern Crater and Zack and Aeris, and good Sephiroth, holy shit, as Plague said it, I was like "that would make them so much money....that's the ending...oh God."
For what it's worth 25:50, I believe unless I'm mistaken 3's main antagonist was initially going to be the serpents which is why there is so much dragon experimentation and serpent like monsters and a serpent (Kaithe/Frampt) became such a pivotal figure in Lothric that their likeness was etched into stone sculptures littering the castle.
The early idea was pontiff or “old king” as he was called not serpents.
@@waltersullivan2727 Old King very ominous. I'd love it if they were to write this alt universe sequel story spinoff we get to finally put down the serpents and continue the age of Fire after defeating twin headed dragon Frampt/Kaithe.
source?
@@soarel325 no idea I just remembered hearing it somewhere, take it as headcanon if you want but it would explain the experiments and how the serpents seem to have latched on to Lothric royalty despite not being depicted as one of the three pillars, unless they're like scholars or SMT?
@@hubbabubba2570 I think the implication in the final game is that the scholar of the Grand Archives was Kaathe
Pretty sure original Wacraft 3 Battle-net was butchered by Reforged so yeah.
I think they took down most of the custom servers which kept the community alive and full of variety. Now it's mostly toxic players
1) I find it funny some people find aspects of the FF7 remake "overproduced", while comparing it with an old game that was also overproduced, compared to other games at the time.
2) DS3 is my favorite DS, but I do agree it is also the most inoffensive one, and my only real, major gripe with it is that it's too safe. That said, DS2 was a mess, and Bloodborne was... well, some say it's the best souls game, I couldn't agree. But the short version is that the rather limited gameplay potential was brought up by a unique setting, but not so much that I could put it above DS1.
3) I'm pretty sure the Pyromancer in Undead Burg outright calls the Butcher a "she" if you talk to him directly while he's still in the barrel.
With respect to your third point, he does refer to her as a ‘she.’ Also, Miyazaki answered a fans question and confirmed the butchers were ‘she’s’ in an interview.
Doubt Plague or anyone else will ever see this, but here goes.
I'm 22 years old. I was born 2 years after the original FF7 came out, and it goes without saying that there's a metric shitload of stuff I have 0 context for as it pertains to a lot of media. I'll be genuinely honest, it is extremely difficult for me to put myself in the frame of mind of someone who existed in the world before I did to experience something like the original of ANYTHING for the first time. That is to to say, contextualizing stuff from the past is hard. Thinking about these things as they were when they came out is HARD.
And I get, it it's a conscious choice to put yourself in that mindset. To want to experience something for the first time and think about it as it was and not through the lens of as you are now to give it deeper meaning. It requires so much effort though, to the point of which that sometimes I just don't think it's worth it.
Truth be told I don't even know what I'm trying to say with this comment. I think that the points that you made are valid, very much so. But as someone who doesn't really understand this era of history because I wasn't alive during it, or when I was I couldn't form critical thoughts, its just something I wrestle with as I look to consume older media.
That's pretty normal. Everyone's like that. The past is weird.
@@PlagueOfGripes 1. Thanks for the response, appreciate it.
And 2. Just to elaborate a bit on my feelings, though I'm sure you're already able to understand what I mean: I'm not incapable of enjoying older media. Far from it, it's just that it's hard for me to think about the past as I'm enjoying it/not enjoying it.
A good example actually: In the lead-up to Devil May Cry 5 I played every game in the series (even 2 which... idk what happened to the time I spent with 2 but its gone now and I can't get it back, but I digress). I got to the reboot and thought "This isn't a Devil May Cry game". It is a game that is alright, but it is not DMC. It wants you to think its DMC, it wants you know it isn't DMC and that its "better than" DMC? I guess? But it never embraces that identity nor what its ACTUAL identity is. And embracing and loving itself is what DMC ACTUALLY is about. The cheesy dialogue and cutscenes the gameplay and style all of it. And that's not a conclusion I came to because of "recontextualizing the reboot because of the past blah blah blah" no that's because I literally just spent the better part of a year playing every single game in the series prior.
I went into DMC knowing nothing. And I came out a fan. FF7 is something I know pretty much everything about but I've never actually touched the source material itself, because all the stuff that I know about it is through ancillary means like your video here or other people talking about how great the game is and Machinabrigded and parodies and so on.
And I'll be honest once again, I'm scared as hell to play the original because I don't know if I'm going to like it. Because the present me is so far removed from what the game was that I don't know if I'm actually going to be able to enjoy it. Who knows, maybe I'll play it once this whole remake shit is done.
Tl;dr you right, past be jank. It isn't impossible to understand. But at the same time, it is a tough decision to understand it.
@@SlayaBEE Just to add on your DMC point Im 30 and grew up with the series and love it. I remember seeing the trailer for DmC and hating everything about it and at the end of the day its a good game (gameplay wise its fine) but you would never get 2012 me to admit that. I hated everything about it because it seemed like it was made by people who hated everything DMC was. Ok getting off topic my point is i have another friend my age who never played a DMC game and DmC was actually his first and he loves that game and when he tried to play the original trilogy/DMC5(he skipped 4) he hated them and claims DmC was better. Hes not the only one either, ive met people who have only played DmC and love it and dont understand why most fans of the original hate it. I dont know where im going with this just thought id share lol
@@SlayaBEE As someone who's younger, this seems like an *incredibly* strange way to view media. I've never felt like I've had to "think about the past" while experiencing older media. Most of the games I play are "old." Games like Flower Sun and Rain from 2008, REmake from 2002, Persona 2 from 2001, Metal Gear Solid from 1998, DMC 3 from 2006, I could go on. All of these games are wonderful, and definitely from the past, but it would be really weird for me to obsess over being in the exact same mindset someone was when those games first released. Sure enough, it's pretty much completely impossible, but who cares? I can still enjoy the media I experience without that.
@@somejabroni51 I was saying that trying to contextualize things IS incredibly difficult and often not worth the effort. And I agree, obsessing over that contextualization would be strange. I never really made a point in my rambling, but that's what I was trying to get across.
The remake looks like an experience I'd probably enjoy if I had a system to play it on, but man did seeing Sephiroth pop up in every other cutscene really bother me. Even more than the time police ghosts. I know everyone knows who Sephiroth is at this point, but you don't need to constantly allude to him or the fact that Cloud has some Jenova injections that affect his memories! The compilation is the worst thing to have happened to Sephiroth's character.
Yeah, I wanted to be scared or intimidated by the guy. I love the base ideas for Sephiroth and Jenova but I just couldn't be scared by them, either due to how they were shown in the remake or because I've seen too many memes.
@@jasojaso1146 You were never going to be scared though its kind of the point Plague is making but also ignoring. Playing up his suspense doesn't add anything that feeling can only exist when it happened.
To you its a cool moment for other people who don't have your experience its just waiting for the guy with white hair to show up no matter what someone was going to alienated and keeping a non secret isn't worth ruining the narrative
the remake makes horrible use of sephiroth in the original you just hear people talking about him and his deeds. you see the incredible powers he has by the result of him passing through. you feel he is dangerous and on a whole other level when compared to your group. the midgar zolom moment show it especially well, sephirot single handedly impaled one with a tree. you? you'd just be its next snack.
the early appearance of sephiroth in ffvii re makes any possible further appearane weaker, you fought him too early he is powerful so anything else he does must be a bigger show of force. in the original it was done so you could actually experience the growth of his presence and actions. not so in the remake.
*advent children
@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat That's part of the compilation.
I started following your channel because Huge Quest, and I've since remained as your voice is pleasant.
To know that you are a sensible and compassionate person only cements my decision further; I just wish that I could help you out in more visceral ways than just words and kind intent.
Also I do have one point to make for dark souls lore (took me a bit for my brain to process it because yay nerve damage!):
It is implied in DS1 lore that Gwyn already had relatives. Allfather Lloyd is the big one for this case, and it indicates that there was life and society before the fire lit.
The opening scene is meant to feel like a creation myth, and knowledge of there being awareness and families before the flame leaves you wondering what else there is?
Which is to say what did our man Miyazaki have in mind? I know he left it open-ended for player interpretation, and it seems like he left the narrator as unreliable purposefully.
Gwyn also had legions before the flame and there is wildlife displayed in DS1 that was, more than likely, still around during the time of the Archdragons.
Anyways, that's just my take, and considering how open ended From left it treating each game as its own insulated world is deepest lore.
perfect timing with how the wheel of time show turned out
People don't even remember things that happened in their own life accurately. Why do people gotta keep trying to make a game series with humans that hop realities to steal from other humans follow a linear plot?
2:39
"No."
Fun thought experiment:
Imagine a story you like.
Imagine a fan makes a theory about it that doesn't make sense and/or ruin the themes. Would this ruin the story for you?
Imagine the author of the story says this theory is canon. Would this ruin the story for you?
Why?
You can also reverse it.
Ever read a fan theory and go, "Wow, that's amazing!"
Does it bother you that this hypothetical amazing fan theory is non-canon?
Again, why?
As for my actual opinion: Your perception of the original can be altered for better or worse through sequels/prequels, retcons, writer Q&As, theories (wrong or right), etc. but it's really down to you how much it affects your enjoyment. Some things will affect enjoyment more than others (canon additions/changes are harder to ignore) but if you're determined to enjoy something, you'll probably enjoy it.
The exception is when the original is removed and only the remake is available. That's BS regardless of the quality of the original or remake.
If that theory was then adapted into a full release, a little bit
As much as I like the idea of writing a vague story that lets the reader come to their own interpretation, part of me dreads that if I'm not explicit enough they could come to the complete opposite conclusion of the story I wanted to tell, and when I think that my idea is just going to get twisted into some bastardized version that completely goes against my original intent, why should I even bother writing it at all?
There always will be the posibility of ancomplete oposite interpretation, this make sense, as the oposite is part of the interpretation, just that person choose a position oposite to yours.
But also no interpretation at all. You where a fairy tale. Now its done. Good night.
That’s a choice that’s yours to make as a writer. Those who do it don’t care how it’s interpreted, they enjoy leaving it up to the reader. That only becomes a problem when you lose or have to share the creative rights to your story and that vagueness does serve against you.
Some people think AOT is an evil manga that glorifies fascism and violence, even when it has almost explicit critique of both of those things. Sometimes you just gotta accept that there are people, dumb or not, that will twist what you write to fit their own narratives, no matter how clear you are in the text itself. But there are people who will /get/ it when you leave something up for interpretation. They'll understand what you're putting in-between the lines, and those are the people we write for :)
You can't anymore. You literally cannot. The matpats and vatis have essentially ruined speculation. They write the cannon, and children will take it as absolute fact. I know this sounds both very accusatory and depressing, but it is the reality we live in.
@@alexs7670 you realize a majority of the bases of the games they cover never see their videos? They have large fan bases but the games have larger ones. Mat pat especially isn’t even taken that seriously, and Vaati is widely criticized disagreed with among people who research Dark Souls lore. Writing a vague story that encourages speculation is not “ruined” by any means.
For those that are curious I googled antonyms for nostalgia. Apparently, the opposite of nostalgia is anticipation or futurism.
I feel like a sequel can ruin the original, especially with how Plague lays it out, but I'm personally able to differentiate the two by asking the question "Were the sequels planned while the original was made?" In the case of Dark Souls and FF7, no, and thus I'm able to enjoy what those stories are devoid what comes after. I can certainly incorporate what I like about the sequels in them and even the sequels themselves, but the pure experience is still there for me.
With the cultural context, it does get iffy because time does move on, we grow as people, and depending on how the original performed sequels will be made. I think in that way people should still be educated on what the original set out to do first, like Plague's Star Wars example of Darth Vader just being named Darth Vader at birth. Whether people are willing to do that is another story, one that is up in the air everyone to consider.
I think you have some confusion in the part where youre referring to intrinsic and extrinsic explanations. There are two types of explanations for why something is canon in a story. 1) The out of universe explanation 2) the in universe explanation
When people have questions about the story, most people want to consider what the current canon is, and want explanation 2). Explanation 1) is very interesting, but it isn't as useful in terms of understanding the canon. This comes up a lot with why does Mace Windu have a purple lightsaber.
Explanation 1) is that Samuel L Jackson wanted one. But explanation 2) tells you about the world building of the star wars universe and how it works. Which is that the Kaiber crystal reflects the soul of the jedi and purple indicates one closer to the darkside.
Explanation 2) should exist for pretty much anything question about a story, and when it doesn't, that can indicate incoherent writing or poorly written characters. It doesn't have to be directly explained in the canon, but fans should be able to piece together an explanation 2) that is logical. I would say that what's happening with dark souls given how contradictory the lore becomes during progression is that the contradictions are breaking the lore. Ideally the lore should expand without contradictions and when that happens it is easy to contextualize the story in any part using details from later parts, because retcons should be used to expand background detail and not to directly change anything that was previously established. Unfortunately, the tool is often not used appropriately.
I actually am extremely fascinated with jenova I was hoping they would focus more on her and make her a actual character this time
As someone who lives in Kentucky as well, i'm glad you're safe bro!
Nameless King being undead always bothered me. Why, oh why, didn't they keep it consistent and give him a human face like Gwyndolin and Gwynevere?
Because he literally isn't a God anymore. His Godhood was removed.
@@RuneKatashima That seems logical and terrifying at some level, makes you wonder: could demons potentially go hollow through specific means?
Because Gwyn Stripped him of his Godhood, making him human and thus vulnerable to hollowing.
@@DarthFandoro there are undead dragons even in ds1, so if dragons can get afflicted by stuff, I'd assume demons can too. Maybe some of the hundreds dead in ds3 smouldering lake were hallowed out.
I understand being excited about receiving more of a product you like, but some people just put the hype directly in their veins and never let the rush stop. A great recent example was maximillian dood doing a jig on stream over ff7 remake releasing to epic game store. He acted exactly the way he did when the project was first announced in 2015, despite it being a port of a year old game on a launcher no one likes and was later exposed as half baked and sloppy, which isn't a surprise given square's track record.
Companies are essentially waving keys in these fans' faces and they're clapping and squealing like it's the greatest thing they ever saw. What they were excited about comes and goes and it's more often than not instantly forgotten about if not hated nowadays, but the company pulls out the keys again and the process repeats forever.
The company should receive most of the blame, as they brainwashed their fans to have a pavlovian response by tying emotional responses to imagery. Still, the fans are partially at fault for building this cult and allowing their emotions to run wild completely unchecked.
Listening to Plague's description of his family, I'm curious what is their opinion on his "totally not furry" art.
Id like to know too after hearing how paranoid they are.
@Dat Max, those evil Hospital Warlocks must've injected him with that Furry drug!
It does make sense what you say about Gwyn crushing a city of Pygmies in the past, but wasn't the whole point of the ringed city to imprison the pygmies? It was a prison city. Why not get rid of them? I dunno, but hey, he managed to keep them there forever.
"Reconstruct the statue and he's some guy"
Probably one of Dark Souls 1's many, many, many time/money saving tricks. They only render what they absolutely need to render.
There's also absolutely no reason to assume that guy is the son of Gwyn. For someone who talks so authoritatively about DS1, Plague really makes a shitload of reaching assumptions of his own.
broken statue = missing statue from anor londo I suppose? Cant leave statue trash in the fancy castle after all, now the country side? “Yeah fuck it just smash that shit and leave it there”
In case my wording was unclear, statue of the same person, not the same physical statue itself.
Kinda have a similar feeling about the Five Nights at Freddy's series. I apologize in advance, but i need to go on a bit of a tangent here.
I love the series, have since the first game came out and still love it despite the most recent game being terrible and the story having gotten convoluted as hell. Incredibly subjective gameplay aside, few people can deny that the story of the original game was incredibly alluring. It presented itself as a simple game about murderous robots, but there were just enough hints to piece together what had actually happened here. A much darker story than initially shown. The unique idea pulled interest, but the mystery and tragedy behind it kept people talking about it.
Then the second game came out and continued this pretty much perfectly. We received new details on what was going on, but there were still a lot of unanswered questions with new breadcrumbs. Same thing with the third game. The killer that was mentioned and briefly shown during the first and second games was now front and center as the main villain, but the way he was properly introduced was as horrifying as it was memorable and the ending gave a nice piece of closure to the missing children storyline.
The fourth game peddled back a bit and seemed to introduce a new branch in the story. Two new main characters, the brothers, that were visibly connected to the same world as the first three games but still their own thing. Not a bad way to continue the story, but this is where cracks started to emerge. Information we were given here started to conflict with what we were told before. The so-called "Bite of '87" (where someone had their frontal lobe bitten off by an animatronic, leading to them being restricted in their movement to after hours) was mentioned in the first game, alluded to with the ending of the second and a big talking point among the community. One of the largest mystery that we had was which of the animatronics was responsible for it. The ending of the fourth game first appeared to finally answer one of the biggest questions we had in a somewhat satisfying way. The marketing for the game even built up to it with the phrase "was it me?" and the number 87 being scattered across every teaser image. But then we were told afterwards that this wasn't the "Bite of '87" but rather the "Bite of _83,"_ which had never once been mentioned before.
The fifth game was where things started to get really messy. The fact that we still don't know where this game is supposed to fit into the timeline because it doesn't really fit anywhere says a lot about the game's story-related issues. Unnecessary sci-fi elements were introduced and old ideas retconned, which made painting a cohesive picture difficult. It also connected to the fourth game in ways too vague to really make sense of. These problems were only strengthened by the sixth game, answering things we never needed answers to, like how possession works, which only made everything more confusing. However, at least it also gave us an incredibly satisfying conclusion. A character mentioned all the way back in the second game finally made a glorious entrance and most loose ends were tied up.
Until the most recent Security Breach gave only questions and no answers to anything what is going on. The killer is back, but did so in a way that directly contradicts the previous game and also brings back elements that were already completed. At this point finding a satisfying way to tie everything together is pretty much impossible because Scott Cawthon, the creator of FNaF, failed to keep the new consistent with what was already established. Security Breach had a perfect chance to blossom into a new, exciting story and flesh out new characters alongside our long-standing main villain, but fell completely on its face because it manages to be so vague and confusing that almost nobody can agree on anything story-wise. I still love the original games, but the mess of what came afterwards does leave a mark. The tragedy of Security Breach makes it very difficult to stay optimistic.
There are that many sequels? Jesus Christ
@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeatI didn't even go into the spin-offs and novels.
I’m up at 2:00 am on a school night. This is definitely the best video essay I’ve ever heard. So many interesting things to think about and ways to… recontextualize other media I’ve consumed.
A great example of this being true is Metroid. Other M and Federation force are a permanent blight upon the series and I hate all the Metroid Dread clips captioned "This is how Samus's character SHOULD be!". Not because they're wrong, but because it's been 11 years and you STILL can't talk about Metroid games without Other M coming up. It's even lead to all sorts of weird fan theories trying to justify Samus' uncharacteristic behavior in Other M. The biggest one right now is that because Samus views Adam as an authority/father figure, she regresses to a child-like state around him and *that* is why she obediently follows his orders even at risk of her own safety. The implication of course being that she's got daddy issues and is putting herself in danger to win daddy's approval. The game is so poorly written that fans would rather that Samus have daddy issues (which is an even worse writing choice imo) than whatever the game's supposed "themes" about Motherhood and Responsibility are.
At least Metroid is still a living franchise that has returned to form, despite the terrible writing/localization of Other M and Federation. Parasite Eve is pretty much dead after the shit show that is 3rd Birthday.
That's the bad part about low lore series suddenly getting s pretty bad section of lore
Now people are looking for excuses to justify DREAD's deus ex machina moment.... When any other series would get called BS on it
One thing I think needed to be addressed more was the hasty and often weird localization/translation of FF7. When the original released they were pressed for time and so lots of things got mischaracterized or dropped and changed how japanese vs international fans would see it.