Это видео недоступно.
Сожалеем об этом.
Let's Talk - How Super Mario Odyssey DESTROYS Mario Canon
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
- Trying something new here: Just talk about topics I feel are interesting or worth talking about, share my opinions, theories, feeling, rants ect. ect.
Might do more of this kind of videos, if I feel like i or if you guys respond to it positively (I mean, someone is gonna watch this, I think...?)
For the first episode I take a look on how inconsistent Super Mario Odyssey is regarding to the canon of Super Mario games... AND WHY IT MATTERS.
I don't care if this Game isn't as topical now... just wanted to say my piece.
Contents:
- Introduction (What is Mario Canon?) 00:00 - 02:39
- Geography 02:40 - 07:38
- What are the Power moons? 07:39 - 10:06
- What the f*ck is up with New Donk City? 10:07 - 14:51
- Small contradictions 14:52 - 16:28
- Final thoughts 16:29 - 22:29
I OWN NOTHING. This is a critique. I gain nothing from doing this, only part that benefits from this is Nintendo, more exposure to their game (see? I'm doing a favor for you!) I don't own any of the characters, themes, artworks, musics nor storylines, all belongs to Nintendo & Lord Shigeru Miyamoto.
FEW CORRECTIONS:
I for some reason, I claimed that Sarasara Kingdom is neighbor to Mushroom Kingdom & therefore located within the same landmass. This is false, as according to Mario Maker, Sarasara resides across the sea.
Power Moons are also strongly implied to come from the Moon by the game itself. Why & how is still a good question, and why they're additionally stated to be alternate forms of Power Stars makes even less sense now, considering their origin, as explained by Mario Galaxy-series.
I really feel your point with the New Donk City humans. It makes absolutely no sense and is just stupid that they are "real-looking" humans, in the canon world, where there are "cartoony humans". It frustrates me so much that they deleted the former concept they had, because it would have been so much better and more fitting, especially would make much more sense for Mario's setting and world.
I know this comment’s is from month’s ago:
I agree, I don’t know why they removed it like just why?
What was wrong with the original concept?, it’s cartoony and fit’s along side Mario.
The one’s in the game doesn’t, it look’s so off when standing next to Mario.
Off-topic, It remind’s me of Sonic World Adventure, were the human character’s are cartoony, they look like they fit in the Sonic universe unlike prior (in my opinion).
@@75JUNAKI Couldn't agree more!
mabye they didnt have enough time to do that part of the game so they used test modles from other games to finish the game in time
Few things paper mario and the rest of the spin off are canon to the mainline canon.
Miyaoto stated they're all the same mario, however there's other proof, Goomboss (originated in paper mario) appearer in mario kart and mario 64 ds, there's even stages in mario kart that was based off paper mario. In mario and luigi super star there's blocks of nostagia that even brought a paper mario block.
And to explain the geography, rosaline explained in Super Mario Galaxy the way of the universe works, each time the world is reset things get slightly altered so the universe is never consistent.
Power moons are moon rocks that fall from the moon to earth and used as a power source, they're as strong as power stars but not Equivalent in destructive power, power stars can time travel, create dimensions and can make the user more powerful, while power moons are more safer to use for the Environment
NOO WTF MARIO CANON WAS MY WHOLE FUCKING PASSION HOLY SHIT HOW DID THEY RUIN IT LIKE THAT????
They didn’t
9:27
where is it ever stated that Bowser created the painting worlds?
Hazy Maze Cave is connected to the Cavern of the Metal Cap, which is located right outside of Peach's Castle, proving at least some of the worlds exist somewhere in the Mushroom Kingdom
Koopa the Quick is also seen in more than one level, hinting at the idea the worlds are connected to each other
Pretty sure I showed this in the vid but that’s literally first thing Toad says in the game: ruclips.net/video/vT3AaQ77ges/видео.html at 02:05 - 02:12
Nothing says that Bowser wouldn’t be able to connect the worlds to one another via magic, after all, they are all already connected to real world’s castle via paintings.
The game says Bowser created some worlds, but nothing states he created all of the painting worlds. Like you mentioned, there’s a lot showing the worlds are obviously real. It’s pretty clear to me that the worlds Bowser is said to have created are the literal Bowser stages, the ones where you fight Bowser.
I wholeheartedly disagree. In fact, I believe Odyssey SAVED Mario canon.
First off, your complaints about the map are flawed. Mario doesn’t visit every location on the planet, and only some of the locations are named. Just because a location isn’t named doesn’t mean in no longer exists.
Dinosaur Land and Yoshi’s Island could easily be some of the islands south of the Cascade Kingdom. The Beanbean Kingdom is on the southern border of the Mushroom Kingdom and the Koopa Kingdom is on the eastern border, meaning they share the Mushroom Landmass with the Mushroom Kingdom. Sarasaland is apparently overseas, meaning there’s plenty of space for it elsewhere on the world map. Delfino was on the map before release and in promotional material, so we know it’s located East of the Mushroom Landmass.
Ironically, the Pi’illo Kingdom could actually be on the map. An island north of the Ruined Kingdom has the exact same shape as Pi’illo Island, so it could easily be located there.
Peach’s Castle is almost definitely not floating over a pit in-universe. It’s just a way for the development team to create a border for the area which the player can explore in. Your complaints about Toad Town being missing are present throughout the entire series, not just Odyssey. Where is Toad Town in Super Mario 3D Land, the New Super Mario Bros. Series and Super Mario 64? Where is in in various Mario Kart titles? Why does Toad Town look different between Galaxy, Galaxy 2, Paper Mario, Bowser’s Inside Story and various other games. It’s not consistent in Odyssey because it never has been.
Your issue with Power Moons makes no sense. Mario could’ve left the planet at the start of the game if he wanted to! You know why he didn’t? Because Bowser wasn’t at the moon until the end of the game! Throughout the game, Mario was chasing Bowser in his airship from location to location. While Bowser was getting items for his wedding in each Kingdom, Mario was both helping out the Kingdoms that he was invading and trying to catch up to Bowser.
Also, we are told quite a bit about them actually. The Moons are an alternate form of Power Stars that come from the moon itself. Mario’s Moon is actually majorly comprised of “Moon Rocks”, which are Power Moons in a condensed, solid rock state.
The reason Mario’s Planet majorly has Power Moons instead of Stars is because the moon rocks fall down to the planet break apart, releasing the moons. The reason the Mushroom Kingdom has stars, like the rest of the universe, instead of moons, like the rest of the planet, is literally the entire plot of Galaxy (the Star Festival).
Mario was born in the Mushroom Kingdom. In-game, he has never been from the “Real World”. While non-game sources in the past have said he’s an Italian American from Brooklyn, it’s clear in-game that Mario’s actually a Mushroom Kingdom Native who, after spending his baby and toddler years in the Mushroom Kingdom, moved to New Donk City, where games like Wrecking Crew, Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong took place. To me, this was a wise decision on Nintendo’s part and of cleans up Mario canon quite a bit. Just because Charles Martinet was told to be an Italian plumber from Brooklyn does not mean that that’s what Mario is in-universe. That’s just the voice they wanted Martinet to do at the time.
Mario (& all of his friends and family) ARE still humans. They are a different subspecies of human to the New Donkers. A different race, if you will. There are many different kinds of people in our world, and in Mario’s World, the difference is that some people are really tall and more realistically proportioned, while others are smaller and more cartoony looking.
You could say the same about Wario-like humans (such as Wario, Booster, Waluigi, Jimmy T.), who have red noses, pointy ears, more defined features and black, dot-like pupils without irises. They’re quite a bit different from the Mario-like humans as well.
Mario and Pauline needing time catch up would actually be a continuity error in and of itself. Mario and Pauline are still clearly close enough friends to hang out/work together in the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series. They’ve clearly met many times since they broke up.
The City Hall floating in the ocean, away from the mainland actually isn’t an issue at all. If you look at the New Donk City Taxis they have sails, just like the Odyssey. They can fly. Heck, you can even see them flying in the background of the city. The Taxis can easily fly from the mainland to the City Hall if necessary. (And nothing’s preventing Power Moons from having existed back when Mario lived in the city).
The City’s naming conventions may not make sense at first, until you consider things the other way around. To me, it seems highly likely that Donkey Kong was named after the City, with “Donkey” being a nickname for a person from New Donk. Donkey Kong could’ve been what the people of the city called him back when he was in the Circus.
Now for the simple nitpicks...
1. The Moon is a huge place. There’s plenty of space for multiple kingdoms to coexist with one-another (including the worlds of Super Mario Odyssey, Super Mario Land 2 and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door).
2. Mario Bosses have always even “fragile” by your definition. Mario is literally a tiny human who somehow manages to beat gigantic monsters all the time. Mario possessing an enemy is no different.
3. Mario is doing his best. He’s got to clear up the messes Bowser makes in each kingdom, collect fuel for his ship and defeat any enemies Bowser has left to fight Mario all while trying to catch up with Bowser. Cut him some slack here.
4. Also, what? The Lord of Lightning destroyed the Ruined Kingdom, but that was in ancient times clearly. Bowser had no involvement with the destruction of the Ruined Kingdom, he just came along later and took control of the Dragon.
5. Mario probably could just ride Yoshi like normal in-universe, but Mario doesn’t seem to care who or what he captures. Plus, Yoshi doesn’t seem too phased by it.
6. I too have a flaw with the wedding guests and continuity, but it’s for different reasons. It’s explained in-game that Bowser was forcing the “guests” to attend his wedding. He brought them to the moon himself. My issue is that all these random folks are there instead of his family. Where is his father figure Kamek? Where are his son, Bowser Jr., and his other relatives, the Koopalings?
7. & 8. Are kinda nitpicky, if I’m being honest.
9. The ending may suck to you, but to me it’s an interesting insight into the struggles of Mario, Peach and Bowser. It was unexpected and a defining character moment in my opinion.
Overall, as a fellow enthusiast of Mario Canon, I respect your opinions, but I ask you to perhaps step back and take another look at this game. I feel like it does a whole lot more good than it does harm.
Either way, I enjoyed the video! Don’t take anything I said too seriously, I did get a bit dramatic at a few parts! Props to you for putting your opinions out there!
Now this is a great response! Good thing I’ve prepared essay for a situation like this!
- ”Mario doesn’t visit every location on the planet” - that is correct, and I never said that. My complaint is how the map CHEAPENS Mushroom Kingdoms place in the World. I complained how it has been shown to have at least 14 different desert ecosystems alone, all implied to be huge & compared it to the Australia in that manner. My point was to demonstrate that the Kingdom is always shown to be HUGE Place in comparison to what we see in the map.
Unless someone can prove that all of those areas seen in past games logically fit into that singular Island, it’s an inconsistency.
Remember when Mario’s World was called Mushroom World? That's how important the kingdom was supposedly.
- You’re right about the unnamed islands potentially being named locations from the past. However, nothing in game itself implies this & you’d have to go to RUclips to find theory videos on how anything fits anywhere.
My problem with those theories is that all of those Islands (Yoshi’s, DK ect.) are all implied to be exceedingly huge as well. Instead, Cascade Kingdom, literal throwaway kingdom (that’s even implied to be relatively unknown place) is huge visible piece of the map, instead of places with multiple ecosystems (& kingdoms of their own, Mushroom Kingdom housing 8 alone). Sarasara is implied to be neighbor to Mushroom Kingdom & Koopa Kingdom is straight up shown to be, in every game it appears.
Also, please keep in mind that these locations will still keep on appearing in games showing that they’re even larger than what I rambled on about, due to constant introduction of new levels & areas.
- Toad town is inconsistent yes, I even talk about such things in the video (0:511 - 05:20), but the inconsistencies have usually boiled down to different design or location. However, straight up erasing something from existence doesn’t make something consistent when talking about how something has been different every time it’s shown. Also if you don't mind, the examples you chose were pretty poor too. I literally say in the video that they should’ve used 64 design of hills blocking our view, so that we could at least imagine there’s life outside the castle: In Odyssey, they straight up show that Peach castle towers over (yes it’s canon, you can literally fall from there) lifeless grassland with no Toad Town, implying it doesn’t exist, or that it’s nowhere near the castle, unlike in the previous appearances. Also, I think we see Kingdom’s border on the horizon as well, which makes no sense, as all the NSMB-series levels are supposed to be connected to same land.
- No, you need specific amount of moons to go further and further… that’s LITERALLY the main objective in the game that Cappy constantly reminds Mario of. That’s why you can’t immediately chase Bowser when you’ve cleared one kingdom (or even leave, if you arrived to a place with no sign of Bowser!) that’s also why it’s stated that Odyssey powered up every time you’ve gathered the amount required to leave.
Interesting info on the moons, doesn’t make sense why rocks from Moon would provide magical energy akin to a Power Star & why the two are implied to be connected when that's not the origin of Power Stars, but that’s at least something. Could you post me a link on this? I’ve never heard or seen this in the game nor various sites I looked up for info on the Moons.
Also this doesn’t address the fact that they are so mondaine that you can hit water hydrant & somehow get one, while they’re supposed to special, nor how nobody minds Mario taking these valuable power sources (especially in Donk City) for what’s essentially a joy ride after completing the game.
Also hmm, you're right, Power Stars might’ve came to Mushroom Kingdom along with Star bits & Grand Stars… even though Comet Observatory uses them as power source & them just falling off like Star Bits is highly unlikely (game never states anything about Mushroom Kingdoms Stars).
- ”Mario spent his toddler years in the Mushroom Kingdom & moved to New Donk City as adult” - Where does the game state ANY OF THIS? This is literally supported by nothing but guesswork. Only evidence we have of Mario living in Mushroom Kingdom as toddler comes from Mario & Luigi: PIT btw, none of the Yoshi games state where the brothers are from.
I get that we can make our own conclusions based on whatever ambiguous evidence the game provides, but all I’m saying is that it’s left unexplained by the game itself, making things needlessly complicated, so I don’t think it was implemented as ”canon cleaning”.
…Also why Mario has accent, is sometimes described as italian in the games & says stuff like ”Mamma Mia” just became huge in-universe plotholes if we’re to take your explanation seriously. Also, first Super Mario Bros game instruction booklet KINDA implies that Mario came to Mushroom Kingdom’s World from ”Real world” hence the use of it in every non-game media as well.
- ”Mario & everybody else are different subspecies of human to the New Donkers” - Well that’s weird & dumb. So, the realistic gross looking Sims characters are somehow related to cartoon humans? Links to any proof, please.
- ”Mario & Pauline already catch-up in Mario vs Donkey Kong series” - I wonder about the canonisity of those games… anyhow, this was marketed as reunion and when Mario first encounters Pauline, it’s implied she doesn’t recognize him, but later talks as if the game skipped froward & she acts like Mario being back in the city is normal.
You could be right tho & this might just be unsatisfying dialog.
- Oh yeah, I do remember there was one obscure Power Moon with flying Taxi, you’re right they can fly.
…though none of the ones on the ground level have sails, so the flying ones might be different… and it’s Still weird that the Main city is separated from the surrounding one for no reason…
- ”Donkey Kong got his name from the city” - I like this headcanon, but is it supported by anything…? Also why would the city reference other DK characters that have no relation to first DK game?
- Now for the simple nitpicks
1. Maybe you’re right about this one, I just find it weird how one doesn’t reference other. Also Paper Mario is separate from Main Mario as of Paper Jam anyways so that Moon doesn’t count (and I never said it did).
2. It is different. Mario has showcased ability to do those things & he logically has to be that strong in order to defeat his foes. What I mean was, that minions are absolute fodder to Mario, & Mario uses those (things weaker than himself) to defeat bosses. Odyssey bosses < Minions < Mario
3. Sry, I just thought of it how funny & stupid it is that he never succeeds in anything in this game.
4. Read the Kingdom map again, it clearly states that the blades on the ground (Bowser’s logos) indicate battle that took Place here, implying Bowser attacking the kingdom with the dragon. Also it’s not like this is Bowser’s first killing spree (Galaxy *cough*) it’s just a weird Shift in tone when compared to Bowser’s silly wedding plans & thievery.
5. Still weird & creepy. Yoshi is supposed to be Mario’s friend & not one of his average Goombas.
6. True true, I forgot to mention stuff like that.
Also, if Bowser abducted them for the wedding, did he travel to the moon & then back to the planet, just to gather the nobodies when he could’ve taken Pauline & others when he attacked the kingdoms? Seems unlikely.
7. & 8. That's why I called them nitpicks yes.
9. Yes, I agree this one is purely opinion based. I don’t like that the game builds up to Mario & Peach getting together and finally do something new for a change, only to spit on that idea, but you can think of it as you will.
Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the effort! Also, if you have any further objections to my given answers, feel free to give them out (links to some of your claims like the Moon info, would be helpful)
Maybe I sound harsh in this video, but I assure you, I do not hate the game or the concepts it introduced.
Marionic90 Thank you, I’m glad you liked the response! I’ll be sure to include some sources this time.
To be honest, I don’t really see how all of those locations can’t coexist on that island. The Mushroom Land Mass is still a huge area, definitely capable of holding all of the Mushroom, Koopa and Beanbean Kingdom locations we’ve seen previously (as well as some other locations). Having been a part of an online Mario Map-making community for over, the areas we’ve previously seen fit surprisingly well on a Mushroom Shape.
I wouldn’t worry too much about vastly different environments being so close to one-another. It’s still a magical world, and all of those locations have been close together in-universe for years. Mario’s World was never called the Mushroom World. The Mushroom World refers to the 7 Kingdoms of the Kings seen in Super Mario Bros. 3 and the Mushroom Kingdom, not the entire planet. The planet itself hasn’t been given an official name.
Again, being a part of a Mario Mapping community has helped here - there are plenty of islands that actually make a lot of sense for locations from past games. Using Dinosaur Land as an example, Mario & Co. fly in their hot air balloon towards Dinosaur Land from the West in Super Mario Advance 2: Super Mario World’s opening cutscene. The Mushroom Kingdom is also East of the Cascade Kingdom. Plus, the islands south of the Cascade Kingdom are similar enough to Dinosaur Land’s Islands to possibly be them.
We actually don’t see the entirety of Kingdoms like the Cascade Kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey. Fossil Falls is just one of the many islands that are a part of the greater Cascade Kingdom. Same goes for most other Kingdoms seen in Super Mario Odyssey. I don’t see much evidence of Yoshi’s Island or Donkey Kong Island being exceedingly huge. They look relatively small in most of their appearances.
Keep in mind that we’re seeing an entire planet here. There’s so much space for everything to go.
Sarasaland is not a neighbour to the Mushroom Kingdom, but rather an overseas nation that is allied with the Mushroom Kingdom. (Source: Super Mario Maker description of official Nintendo Sarasaland Course “Start in the land of Super Mario Bros. and cross the water into the land of... Super Mario Land! That's the idea behind this course. Transform into Princess Daisy and explore Sarasaland!”)
Toad Town has often not appeared in games, so it not being present in Odyssey is no different. If Super Mario Run is anything to go by, the Town is constantly changing and is often moved away/removed completely/remodelled, as is the castle itself. This is due to Bowser’s Attacks and invasions often destroying the Town and Castle. Toad Town does not have to exist here because, as you can clearly see in the introductory sequences of games such as Super Mario 3D Land, Super Mario 3D World, Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam or New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Toad Town is nowhere to be seen.
Also, just because you can fall from there doesn’t mean it’s canonically on a floating island, but even if it was there is still magic that could’ve lifted the castle into that position. Peach’s Castle is no stranger to floating above the ground. We do not see the Kingdom’s border on the horizon, however we can see a Lake area, a forest, a mountainous area and a desert area in the background of Peach’s Castle. This lines up completely with other games (which, of course, feature those environments beyond the grasslands of central Mushroom Kingdom).
I never said you didn’t need moons to go further and further. The Moons are a fuel source, so of course Mario needs them to power his ship. What I was saying is in-universe it almost certainly doesn’t take all of the moons he got since the beginning of the game to fly to the Moon. Heck, if anything the only Power Moons he used to fly to the moon are the minimum required amount of 8 Power Moons from Bowser’s Kingdom. Nothing in the game states that he couldn’t have gone straight to the moon from Bonneton if he wanted to, the issue with that is that Bowser wasn’t on the moon with Peach until the very end of the game.
My guess is that the Moon Rocks are actually Condensed, Solid Power Stars, but when the rocks are broken, the Stars become deformed (taking on the Power Moon shape). Here’s a diagram I made for reference: imgur.com/gallery/jGLhQ9M. In regards to where I got this information on the Moons, you can see it in the brochure of the Moon Kingdom. (Sorry for low quality image, it’s the best I could find): imgur.com/gallery/K7OyVKJ
As for Mario taking the Power Moons, once he has them, they’re his. He can do whatever he pleases with them.
Super Mario Odyssey doesn’t say where the Bros. are from explicitly, but you can tell from looking at the prequel games. Contrary to what you said, the Yoshi games do give us a definitive answer as to where Mario & Luigi are from. The intro of Yoshi’s New Island states that they come from the Stork World. The Stork then delivers them to their parents in the Mushroom Kingdom by the end of the game. They are still living in the Mushroom Kingdom by Yoshi’s Island DS and Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. We know next to nothing about their lives between this point and their days in New Donk, but that means it’s easy to infer that they moved from the Mushroom Kingdom to New Donk to work at some point.
As for Mario’s Accent, who says it has to be Italian in-universe? It may be inspired by an Italian accent in real life, but in Mario’s World who’s to say it’s not a Volbonan or Delfinian accent (Volbono and Delfino are both Italy-inspired locations). You could say the same about Broque Monsieur. He has a stereotypical French Accent and uses some French words, despite apparently being from Pi’illo Island and living in the Mushroom Kingdom. I’d also like to see where the Super Mario Bros. manual implies that Mario came from the Real World.
Mario and the New Donkers are all different subspecies of human. It’s confirmed. Here’s a link for ya: www.google.ie/amp/s/waypoint.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/gyp383/nintendo-finally-answers-is-mario-human
There is nothing that would indicate the Mario vs. Donkey Kong games being non-canon. Mini toys from those games appear in Mario Kart 8 and it even standardised Pauline’s current design that she still uses in Super Mario Odyssey. Nothing indicates to me that Pauline doesn’t recognise Mario straight away when you get to the city. She tells him that she doesn’t have time to chat because she has to figure out how to save her city. (ruclips.net/video/1r-GojjzmQ8/видео.htmlm28s)
She even goes on to casually talk to Mario about Bowser being tasteless, which isn’t how I’d expect the Mayor to talk to someone she doesn’t recognise.
I think it could be possible that the Sails only extend from the Taxis when they need to take off, much like the how Sphynx’s Sail does. This would also explain the Tostarenan that takes the taxi to different kingdoms and even the Moon. It’s not just a regular taxi.
Glad you like the idea about Donkey Kong’s name. As for the other characters, either they were all also named after the locations in the city, or the city changed the names of those streets after the events of Donkey Kong Land, which has King K. Rool taking over the city (explaining names like K. Rool Street) and Donkey Kong besting K. Rool and saving the city (explaining the places that share names with DK’s Pals).
On a separate not from Odyssey, the events of the Paper Mario games aren’t actually exclusive to the Book World and must’ve occurred in the real world too. We know this thanks to things like the Star Spirits appearing in Mario Party 5, Koopatrols in Super Princess Peach, Whackas in Mario Party 6, etc. However, the biggest pieces of evidence are Goomboss reappearing in Super Mario 64 DS and Mario Kart DS, as well as Peach’s/Bowser’s Floating Castle from Paper Mario appearing in Mario Kart: Super Circuit. You see, Goomboss and that castle didn’t exist until Bowser used the Star Rod to make them exist, meaning for those characters to appear in the real world, the events of Paper Mario must’ve also occurred in the real world.
About Bowser in the Ruined Kingdom, you might want to read that brochure again. The brochure states that the Kingdom fell into ruin long, long ago. So long ago in fact that the Kingdom itself and its people are a complete mystery to the Crazy Cap employees writing the brochure. Seeing as every other brochure has plenty of information on the Kingdoms and their history, if Bowser attacked the Kingdom in his lifetime then they should definitely know about what the Kingdom was like before the attack.
What the brochure seems to suggest instead is that the race that lived in the Kingdom attempted to harness the Dragon’s lightening Powers, but the Dragon then attacked the Kingdom, turning it into what it is today. The Stakes were only placed in the Kingdom more recently, when Bowser came to the Kingdom and succeeded where that race had failed. He captured the dragon and put it under his control (notice the same stakes keeping the helmet attached to the Dragon’s Head during the boss fight).
The Broodals or Bowser’s other minions could’ve technically brought the wedding guests.
Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to read mine!
@@seandwalsh3 Sorry it took this long to reply:
- What I am referring to with my Australia comparison was that this specific continent, while larger, holds only handful of different ecosystems. It has like 2 major deserts, while Mushroom Kingdom showcases different Desert in every game, every level being a different kind of large area, that's still so tiny that you can’t even perceive on the World-Map, implying that all maps are HUGE in their entirety.
Sure, we can use cartoon logic and say “all of the ecosystems fit close together, because it's magical world...” which is just assumption. These areas are larger than shown, like you said with cascade kingdom (also I never insulted it’s size, just it’s significance…?) and each “World” within the Kingdom could also be considered a small country if we go by SMB3 Kingdoms.
Also, Mushroom Kingdom level even has what appears to be shore & cap kingdom at distance(?) according to some people, so size implications are all over the place.
I checked has the planet ever been called Mushroom World, and you’re right about that one. I incorrectly remembered them calling the Planet by that name in Galaxy… which btw can be seen below the Comet Observatory, having city lights on form of a Power Star the size of Odyssey’s version of Mushroom Kingdom landmass…
Also also, EVEN IF all the levels/areas we’ve had over the 30+ years (and going forward!) fit into that tiny landmass, it just reinforces my point that Mushroom Kingdom is tiny unimportant kingdom, that Bowser & co stupidly fight over. This is especially funny, considering that Bowser’s Kingdom, that he just magically had in Odyssey dwarfs Mushroom Kingdom’s Island in size.
But you know what, I want to give you a chance to change my mind. Give me a link to one of those fan maps that fits every areas into that landmass. I really want to see one.
- I’ve never seen that Sarasara comment, but I guess it confirms it’s not Mushroom Kingdom’s neighbor. Koopa Kingdom though has always been right next to it, and you could argue that it’s Mordor-like hellish landscape should be able to be seen on the map… yet it isn’t.
Yoshi’s Island, due to appearing in multiple games has showed same kind of ecosystemical variety as Mushroom Kingdom, implying it to be huge. DK Island, same thing, both of these areas will also continue to appear in games, adding yet another new massive desert/jungle area every time.
- The lack of Toad Town can be easily explained away in many titles (like in 64). We never even get full landscape view of the area surrounding Peach Castle in NSMB games or 3D Land, but we can assume the Town's there, because we aren’t straight up proven it doesn’t exist… in Odyssey however, we get confirmed that not only Toad Town doesn’t exist in Odyssey, but all the levels & life on the surface of Mushroom Kingdom doesn’t either!
I like the explanation you have for why the Town (and the castle by extension) differs from game to game, but I don’t think there’s enough evidence to support that.
“Peach Castle is no stranger to floating above the ground” -What. When it’s kidnapped yes, but why the heck would it be natural for it to sit on a stone column some thousands of meters above the ground when it never has before?
Also any Desert or mountain areas being visible would contradict existence of all the Grassland levels anyway, as they’re supposed to be closer to the castle, so…
- "I never said you didn’t need moons to go further and further" -You kinda said that though… You said they could’ve gone to the Moon right at the start if there was need for it… however, in-universe you can’t leave the Kingdom you are in, until you collect the set amount of Moons which is needed. You get minimum of 6 Moons in Bowser’s Kingdom, but can’t go to moon till u get all the 8 I think, meaning the amount of Moons Mario has before is not enough.
- Moon Rocks being Condensed Power Stars is just Headcanon. Why would there be Power Stars in the Moon, when Mushroom Kingdom’s the only place they’re found in & what would cause them to "naturally condense” into Moon Rocks? Also do they break on their own on the Moon according to you (rocks in the game need to be hit after they lose their invulnerability, so…)?
The Moon Map picture only says that they’re theorized to be “energy made solid” and form naturally… not even a hint of a connection to Power Stars, which makes no sense considering their similar properties & Cappy’s statement.
Also Moon’s being born from Power Stars is weird anyway, considering HUGE power difference between them: A city needs possibly hundreds of Power Moons to operate, not to mention Odyssey-ships flight capabilities, when a single Power Stars are used to make Black Holes & Dimensions in Galaxy & 64.
Also, what in the game says that Mario gets to keep the Moons due to some agreement? Those suckers could be used for the benefit of the city and they’re just left to lie around till Mario takes them!
Had to split this comment in 2
@@seandwalsh3 Part 2:
- Stork world… kinda stand in for heaven or where babies are thought to come before birth, or whatever. And I suppose you’re right, in New Island it’s never stated that it’s Mushroom Kingdom they’re brought to, but it clearly is judging by the Mushroom houses… (sry, I'm only familiar with first 2 Yoshi’s Island games and I checked cutscenes from those, and even in DS there are mushroom houses, so my bad), so this along with babies in Mushroom Kingdom are pretty handy evidence ruining this implied “real-world” canon for games I originally mentioned... I suppose we can assume Mario Bros. moved to new Donk City when adults & returned to the Kingdom in SMB1… but…
- …This only reinforces my point about Mario’s & Luigi’s accent & ethnicity being in-universe plotholes. I don’t have any links to point to instances in games where someone calls Mario Italian ect. but I think Toads in M&L and Color Splash sometimes jokingly do that… + everybody in real world does: nintendoeverything.com/miyamoto-explains-why-mario-is-italian/
along with all other Mario media, which might not seem relevant, but I find it peculiar how games would be the only place this doesn't happen.
Yeah, the accent might be something else in-universe, but all the evidence we have says that it’s Italian, while Italy shouldn’t exist on Mario World.
What I was trying to say, was that I suppose the consensus of Mario Bros coming from “real world” started with the first SMB game, where the manual suggests Mario came from “far away” & that “you are Mario” which is prolly what led to that.. misconception l guess: www.poisonmushroom.org/2015/09/lets-read-the-original-super-mario-bros-manual/
You could say addressing Mario as Italian contradicts the lore in Yoshi’s Island games, so it’s impossible for him to be Italian in-game. Still weird.
- I read that article, and well, I guess you’re right you’re right about them being same species. Though that’s gross and kinda dumb, I keep that, since the reason given why cartoon humans & Sims exist in the same world is because “ In the world (our world), there are many different types of people, you know” - that kind of hand-wavy explanation is like saying that Minecraft Steve is subspecies of Real world humans, if he was to exist here.
- Yes, I think you’re right Mario vs DK games. Though it’s weird how the trailers for the Odyssey were big on the fact that Pauline is back & game does next to nothing with that, like referencing the past or explaining some cool details from DK-era of games… missed opportunity.
- ”Sails only extend from the Taxis when they need to take off, much like the how Sphynx’s Sail” -Possible. Doesn’t explain why the city is built that way tho (and that was just example anyway, this happens in every kingdom, where they’re surrounded by pit or water, when they’re supposed to be part of big mainland, while in 64 they handle it greatly in places like Bob-Omb battlefield)
- The finale in DK Land happens in Big Ape City, and NOTHING in Odyssey suggests that it was the same place as New Donk City. Also, why in the frig would they even name a street after K. Rool AKA the guy that took over the city? No one would name a place after Hitler either.
- Good points, you could call Paper Jam a retcon then. That game EXISTS solely to explain the difference between main Mario series & Paper Mario’s world. Of course the two worlds share some history with each other, PM64 directly references that Mario has had multiple adventures by that point, and it’s even treated as “kind of sequel” to Super Mario RPG.
Of course Paper Mario characters can have counterparts on the Main Mario series too, if it can work the other way around. Main game Star Spirit’s, Koopatrols & Goomboss (who was King Goomba in PM & 64 DS clearly treats itself as his first appearance anyways) just appeared after their counterparts we’re introduced in Paper world, like how DC chars such as Harley Quin got started in the cartoons, but eventually were shown to exist in main comics as well. Lot of Mario chars exist between both worlds. Bowser’s Castle can fly on its own in Main games, as seen in games like Inside Story.
- Your point about Ruined Kingdom is possible, but the brochure/map clearly indicates the battle that left the stakes & the ruination of the Kingdom are connected. The event that left the stakes, was result of “battle long ago”, clearly implying that Bowser used them while he attacked the Kingdom, and took control of the ruined Dragon the same time to use it to destroy the kingdom tower. Implication is that people there used to gather lightning from the dragon, but after Bowser came, he used it to destroy the Tower.
Why the Battle that left the stakes is stated “long time ago” and why no-one knows who ruined the kingdom, is anyone's guess, chuck it up to another plothole in Odyssey.
- Still, why not take the wedding guests while Bowser & Co were traveling through those places the quests are from, but after Mario leaves for the Moon? Also Broodals are defeated at that point anyway, so it probably isn’t their work.
Not to mention that wedding guests dialog (and the ”invitational” posters Bowser leaves around), suggests that they weren’t exactly kidnapped or anything.
Thank you for your comment, I kinda agree on “Mario never was from real world in games” stance, but I still have some problems with other stuff.
Btw, which do you prefer in regards to New Donk City design & the games ending: The game version or the Concept art?
Marionic90 Thanks again for your replies! I’ll gladly give you a link to the discord server of the community if you’re interested. Most of the maps are on there, and it should be a bit easier to explain there too.
Bowser doesn’t want to just take over the Mushroom Kingdom though, he has attempted to take over many other locations as well (Mushroom World, Dinosaur Land, Yoshi’s Island, Pi’illo Island, Jewellery Land, the Sprixie Kingdom, the entire universe, etc.)
However, there are multiple possible reasons why he keeps trying to take over the Mushroom Kingdom. For one, he has clearly developed romantic interest in Princess Peach over the years, so of course he’s going to want to kidnap her over and over. Secondly, he considers Mario to be his arch nemesis and always wants to best him. What better way to do so than taking over the Kingdom where he lives? He’s also very stubborn and considers the Mushroom to belong to him (as seen in Bowser’s Inside Story). He’s not going to take no for an answer when it comes to taking over the Mushroom Kingdom.
The Kingdom May be small, but it’s apparently the most famous of all Kingdoms (according to Odyssey’s Brochure) it must be important if it’s that famous. The size of a Kingdom doesn’t equate to its power or significance in the world.
The Koopa Kingdom is probably beyond the Desert that we see in Odyssey, further east (beyond the horizon). They can’t render every location in the background of the Mushroom Kingdom. Bowser’s Kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey is also different from the Koopa Kingdom seen in past games.
Donkey Kong Island and Yoshi’s Island have had two and three major appearances (in the platformers) respectively, and their environments have remained largely the same (with the exception of Gorilla Glacier being replaced by the Volcano on Donkey Kong Island. Still, the environments aren’t so varied that it becomes unrealistic.
Look at the various environments on Donkey Kong Island: “Jungle, Beach, Mines/Caves, Lakeside Town, Snowy Mountaintop, Factory and later Volcano (that replaces the Snowy Mountaintop)”. These are all locations that could realistically be found on a relatively small tropical island (the factory being the exception, but that was built by the Kremlings).
Same goes for Yoshi’s Island. The Worlds are as follows in both Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island and Yoshi’s Island DS: “Grassland, Mountains, Jungle, Beach, Snowy Mountain”. These are once again all typical locations that could realistically all exist on a relatively small Tropical Island.
In games like Super Mario 3D Land and World, you can see the path leading to Peach’s Castle (with no obstructions) in the intro scenes, and Toad Town is nowhere to be seen. Also, saying that 64 not having Toad Town makes sense where Odyssey doesn’t is a bit hypocritical (no offence to you). In 64, Peach’s Castle is in a mini-valley. The high hills that are completely surrounding Peach’s Castle leave no space for Toad Town to exist, not even the Toad Town seen in Galaxy or Galaxy 2.
I still stand by the opinion that none of the areas in Super Mario Odyssey (bar Bowser’s Kingdom) are actually floating. Why would Peach ask “How does the castle stay afloat?” (imgur.com/a/c5KvFJF )in Bowser’s Kingdom if most of the other Kingdoms she’s been to, including her own, are also floating?
It’s clearly a gameplay thing. In-universe, the other supposedly floating locations don’t actually float, they’re just like that for the player. It’s like saying that there’s really an invisible barrier at the edge of the Seaside Kingdom, when that’s clearly just there to prevent the player from going out of bounds.
I don’t see how the presence of Desert and mountains contradicts anything when you also just said the lack of the Koopa Kingdom contradicts things. It can’t be both ways.
The point is that they could’ve gone to the moon right at the start if they wanted to! The moons are powerful enough to take them there. The issue is that Bowser wasn’t on the moon, and they had no idea Bowser was going to the moon before he did. The game doesn’t allow you to go to the moon because Cappy and Mario have no reason to go there at that point. Why would they go there when their goal is to stop Bowser?
Power Stars are not only found in the Mushroom Kingdom clearly, as you’ve stated in your own video. They’re found all across the universe. The only place where Moons are found is Mario’s Planet and Moon, because the Moon rocks contain moons. The brochure may say “energy made solid”, but it’s blatantly clear that the energy they’re referring to is that of the Power Moons, seeing as when you break the Moon Rocks in-game, they become Power Moons. The Brochure said it’s hard to imagine that they naturally formed, so perhaps some external power had a hand in condensing the Moons into a solid form?
Also, how is there no connection to Power Stars? They are directly stated to be another form of Power Star. I brother explanation I provided makes the most sense, but I’m sure there are plenty of others.
Again, there’s little to no difference in the Power Levels emitting Power Moons. New Donk City is huge! Of course the generator will need a lot of moons to operate, just like how the comet Observatory or Starship Mario (which are much smaller than New Donk City) need a few Power Stars or a Grand Star to fly between planets and galaxies.
There is no “agreement”, but the Moons don’t belong to or aren’t being used by anyone else when Mario takes them in Odyssey. It’s the same in Sunshine or Galaxy when he takes Shines or Stars. They’re either given to him or he completes and objective or finds them. In each of those scenarios, he becomes the owner of the Shine/Star/Moon, and he can use it to further his overall goal of the game (restore light to Delfino, get to the centre of the universe and catch up to Bowser, respectively)
Miyamoto May have intended for Mario to be an Italian back when he created Mario, but no in-game sources have made that claim, therefore it is not considered canon in-universe. Again, I bring up Broque Monsieur. Is he from France? No. Yet he has a French Accent.
It’s like in any fantasy world where all of the characters have British Accents. They clearly aren’t from Britain, so are their accents a plothole? No, because in their world, common accents just happen to sound identical to real world British accents.
Your Minecraft Steve argument is a huge leap from New Donkers vs. Mario styles humans. At least the New Donkers and Mario-styles humans look human. They’ve got similar traits, features and anatomy. The only main difference being height and proportions. It’s not as if one is a regular human and the other is pixelated and made up of cuboids.
The city could be built that way because - well why not? It’s stated that the city is constantly under construction, so if imagine they have some pretty crazy ideas for the layout of the city. If they have flying cars, why not make the City Hall on a high platform away from the rest of the city?
(Also, 64 didn’t handle it much better. In 64 you could still fall into a void in multiple levels by going out of the intended area. It’s the same thing here)
Big Ape City and New Donk City are all but confirmed to be the same location. Page 15 of the Donkey Kong Land manual says: "Travel by zeppelin to Donkey Kong's favorite stomping ground, Big City. The sight of that familiar skyline might bring back fond memories, but don't waste your time sightseeing when there are Kremlings around!"
The strategy guide for Donkey Kong Land in Nintendo Power also indicates this, with a screenshot caption stating "Cranky used to roll barrels at a plumber in the construction site here"
Also, who said that the New Donkers named the street after K. Rool? If the street was named after K. Rool, couldn’t K. Rool have named it after himself while he was in charge and the people of the city just never gave it a new name afterwards?
The brochure only states that the “swords” were thought to be left from a great battle. However, it then goes on to state that “Some see them not as swords, but rather nails or stakes. Perhaps the eyelets at the top allowed ropes or chains through to anchor something, but it's impossible to say what.” Seeing as these same “swords” are the ones that Bowser used to pin the crown to the dragon, it’s obvious that this is the intended origin of the “swords”. Bowser came and used them to capture the dragon and take control of him, nothing more.
It is not a plothole. The Kingdom was destroyed by the dragon after its people tried to harness the dragon’s lightening power long ago, Bowser came more recently with his swords or stakes and took control of the Dragon.
The Broodals were defeated, but how is their defeat in Bowser’s Kingdom any different from their defeat in the other kingdoms? Heck, we even see them return later in the Dark Side. Just because they’re defeated doesn’t mean they can’t go and pick up some guests.
The wedding guest’s dialogue states that they were forced to attend the wedding against their will.
Anyway, thanks for the reply again! As for New Donk City, I have to say I’m split really. Some of the concept art of Odyssey in general looked better than what we got.
The city was fine on its own, and I liked the realistic and Donkey Kong-inspired version of the city itself that we got, however I would’ve loved to see Mario Bros. Plumbing, which appeared in the concept art of the city but sadly never appeared in-game. Seeing some more Mario-styled humans would’ve also been cool, but if it was the same male and female Mario-styled human copied and pasted all over the city I wouldn’t have been too happy.
15:16 to 16:29 have you thought about making a everything wrong with something video?
Like other youtubers doing, like cinemasins, charrie5, GCN, Dartigan?
In past yes, but never really developed the idea any further.
That section wasn't necessarily meant to parody/reference Cinemasins, but I get how it gives off same vibes as their videos XD
If I was going for full recreation, I would've included the Ding sound effect there.
Dont start xD
We had enough of that thought animation sins Videos till hr started to bully
i like to believe that jump man and mario are two different people and that jump man got into the mushroom kingdom (which i believe is underground) through a sewer system and in the mushroom kingdom he fathered mario and luigi who could be half human half toad which is why they look different to the humans in new donk city. i think the mushroom kingdom is much larger underground and that in the events of mario odyssey or before mario odyssey the mushroom kingdom found their way to the surface and built another castle and claimed the surface area of the land they wound up on as just another part of the mushroom kingdom. i dont have any good evidence but its my head canon and i just wanted to share it
That’s some Game Theory energy right there.
Though, I’ll have to ask out of curiosity, why, in this, headcanon’s logic, why does Mr. Jump Man look like a cartoony Mario human instead a Sims then, assuming that you refer to Jump Man as OG Donkey Kong game version of Mario…? We’ve seen his art in those games you know…
@@Marionic9001 because the design was limited on the tech at the time and styles change throughout time just like how bowser in the first game was just green and white but now has red hair and green mostly on his face and shell or how in older games koopa troopas look like regular turtles but are more anthropamorphic today also what do you mean by "those games"? and its my headcanon because i think it explains my own questions about the mario universe plus i think it makes a good story for mario but thats just my opinion
@@coremeat3441 I meant cover and other official art of the time….
m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMWY4MzQxMDItNzIyYy00YTFjLTg2YjctMDBiOTgwZGY5ZDYzXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTA0MTM5NjI2._V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg
@@Marionic9001 I dont know but i did say that styles change when a series exists for a long time its all head canon anyway so i dont think nintendo would approve it because it doesnt have a lot of evidence and it is based of random things i see so i connect it with an explanation for a more clear naritive and story through out each game i play and by the way thanks for responding to my comments even if this video is three years old
also im sorry if i didnt answer your question well enough i probably just either cant come up with a good explanation or im not understanding what you mean
amazing video.
Thx!
Good video
You are right about everyting, odyssey is so bad✊
That wasn't the point I was trying to make though... my issues lie with the continuity, not with the game as a whole.
Argue your thesis why it's all bad.
Yo the game is a master piece but it just ruins the continuity
Its not Bad lol
@@Kalom23 I thought the game was lame but your opinion
I think you taking the game to serious
Answers I created:
Mushroom kingdom incongruence: toad town is probably located on tath crater located outside the kingdom or so close to the castle tath we can't even see
Geography.incongruency: mushroom kingdom don't as a defined overhaul, and they just make its small so you can think there's a lot more than you expected to explore
Humans incongruence: in mushroom world there are different species of turtle,fish,etc. So why not humans?!
Origin incongruence: Its never said Mario originated to this city
Star incongruence: probably stars just fall on mushroom kingdom by some reason Cappy just compared to power moons because they don't meet them
@@triogamers_br2147 I think you’re taking the game too seriously, inferring stuff that’s not in the game.
My problem with Kingdom is mainly it’s positively miniscule size & lack of any continuity to previous games that have shown it to be incredibly vast. Toad Town is situated either close to the castle or right next to it in each game, but in Odyssey, there’s only lifeless Garry’s Mod wasteland with some trees as far as what is apparently shoreline (which shouldn’t be that close by even according to the world maps miniscule representation of the Kingdom), but let’s say that what we see is just wrong & it’s not the shoreline. Even so, we have been shown that the kingdom is huge, previously there’s been aprox 7 countries & 7x3 different ecosystems across it. From the world map, we see that there only exists rock & grass, where are the sphere’s covered in snow or sand? Where’s Koopa Kingdom?
"in mushroom world there are different species of turtle,fish,etc. So why not humans?!"
- There’s vast difference between just cartoon humans & well… whatever these Sims looking rejects are. They do not even remotely fit the art-style of cartoony Mario characters, heck, not even their own city which is just as cartoony as rest of Mario Worlds! There’s nothing that will convince me that these 2 ’humans’ are either same species or from same planet, lat-alone same game. I’m also 100% certain that considering their kingdom size & their fetish for traveling & flying cars that they should’ve appeared in the past but they never did, before being retconned in. Just… great world-building.
"Its never said Mario originated to this city"
- It technically isn’t, but it’s implied.
I suppose if Yoshi games & Partners in Time are anything to go by, Mario Bros. lived in Mushroom Kingdom ther childhood & perhaps moved to New Donk City later.
"probably stars just fall on mushroom kingdom by some reason Cappy just compared to power moons because they don't meet them"
- ’There’s probably a reason’ -and what might that be? Something incredibly stupid perhaps? They exist all throughout the Universe according to Mario Galaxy & they feed these godly items to tourists according to this dumbsh*t version of the kingdom where they can be bought from giftshop, and the place is apparently popular so there’s no reason that Cappy does not know nor for them to have ONLY the stars & other places ONLY having moons.
@@Marionic9001 bro tath was just a joke comment
@@Marionic9001 but I really believe in the explanations
@@Marionic9001 i will respond the discussion later