Do you need Analog Summing?
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- ➡️➡️Click here to learn more about Analog Summing: producelikeapro.com/blog/do-y...
➡️➡️Rupert Neve Designs 5012 Preamp: imp.i114863.net/dQ6x3
➡️➡️Today's FAQ Friday Questions:
➡️I’ve heard that some engineers run their mix though a stereo pre-amp before using mix bus compression. What do you think about this approach? 0:44
➡️I’ve yet to get to the intern stage. Can one be a sound engineer without going to school for it? 9:24
➡️Could I intern at the age of 16 with little or no knowledge about audio engineering? 15:17
Today's featured question is:
I’ve heard that some engineers run their mix though a stereo pre-amp before using mix bus compression. What do you think about this approach?
I love this question because it opens up so much discussion!
In a case like this, there are no pitfalls to using some high quality hardware. You could definitely use it to add some coloration and some warmth. The question I would ask, though, is: Why? What problem are you trying to solve?
While I highly recommend a high quality preamp, you should use them all across your recording. If you are a mixer and you get something really "digital" sounding, or really brittle, and you're trying every trick in the book to round off some of those transients, it could help. But I wouldn't do it just on my master bus!
If I was going to do what you are talking about, and you're only mixing and not tracking, I would probably run everything through it individually. If you want to use this idea of running it back through analog equipment, then do multiples. Once you have your drum bus, run that through; once you've got your guitars in a stereo mix, sum that through it. I think that would give you a lot more control.
If you are tracking, then take your preamp and use it on everything! If you use it on all the sources, then you are less likely to need to use it on the end, because you already have that sound everywhere else along the chain.
If you don't have hardware, and are mixing entirely in-the-box, there are some fantastic plugins out there that will give you this analog sound as well! I know tons of mastering and mixing engineers that are totally in-the-box, who use these types of plugins, and make some incredible music!
❤️My Favorite Plugins:
➡️Waves MV2: waves.7eer.net/c/1205870/2868...
➡️Waves RBass: waves.7eer.net/c/1205870/2868...
➡️Renaissance Vox: waves.7eer.net/c/1205870/2868...
➡️Renaissance Compressor: waves.7eer.net/c/1205870/2868...
➡️Warren Huart IR Pack lancasteraudio.com/shop/ir-pa...
➡️Warren Huart Kemper Pack lancasteraudio.com/shop/kempe...
❤️GEAR:
➡️Stealth Sonics: stealthsonics.com/?aff=3
➡️UK Sound 1173: vintageking.com/uk-sound-1173...
➡️Apollo x16: u.audio/apollox16-plap
➡️Apollo Twin: u.audio/apollotwin-plap
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Leave your FAQ Friday questions below!
Do I really need acoustic treatment in my room while recording high gain guitars with dynamic mics (right at the speaker grill)?
I'm a bedroom musician and I usually shy away from recording actual amps because I don't know what I'm doing & also there's the convenience of amp sims. However, the times that I have tried micing up an amp (Shure SM58, solid state Marshall combo), I didn't really hear the "room" and I quite liked it. My room isn't big and is packed with a lot of stuff.
The tracks that I've downloaded from PLAP so far have all been 48k. I've always worked in 48k for Video and 44.1K for audio releases to avoid problems with conversion aliasing. Why track them in 48K? Is it because you plan to release on RUclips? Are the codecs so improved that aliasing is no longer an issue when downconverting for CD? Thanks.
Jay I managed to get the gold bundle for £89 during Black Friday so maybe wait for that?
Should one always de-noise your audio recordings to make it sound professional ? It takes some effort, is it worth it or that big a difference?
How can you make small home studio recordings, sound like something recorded live in a big room/arena? (Think modern worship megachurch type sound)
Was browsing through some thread from another social media about summing and I remember seeing one of your videos about the Neve and here I am, watching your videos again. :) Really enjoy your channel, I was just trying out mixing 2 years ago and I can't imagine finishing 7 songs that our band recorded during the pandemic. A lot of sleepless nights watching your videos on vocals, bass and drums mixing along with the videos from Marc Nelson. A lot of thanks to you.
And what's motivating is what you said here. I didn't go to school for mixing too but like you, I just like plugging and testing things and I just dove right in with our band's project and luckily it turned out ok. Thanks again and looking forward to more of your videos.
“What problem do you want to solve?” Good question.
Yes! Indeed
The hole in my heat left by not enough gear!
“What problem do you want to solve?” Muffled harshness lol
Nick Holum Like the John Prine tune! “There’s a hole in my arm where all my money goes....”
Sounds like digital is waning and people are longing for analog.
Funny that I am watching this video. Last week I worked on a production for an old school blues single. The engineer did a good job, by the book but the band was still unhappy with the result.They were at mastering level completely out of the allotted time. The band leader was complaining to me about the overall sound. Based on the feedback that I received from the band I send an email to engineer and ask him to try to run the finished mastered song thought a couple of Neve type of preamp with the gain pushed quite a bit. The band was so happy about the result, they couldn't believe their ears.
That’s wonderful to hear! Thanks ever so much for sharing
I’ve experienced this....and this is why analog rules.
I'd love to see more episodes about songwriting, pre-production and arranging like you did a bit a few weeks ago. Because all mixing stuff is useless when the song isn't good... more attention on the initial creative process would be so great to watch. And if you start interviewing producers again, an extensive interview / studio tour with Howard Benson on his producing techniques (especially how he doubles the recorded parts with synths / pads at home) would be very interesting.
People spend years and years and years learning about actual musicianship. You can't expect to watch a few videos and suddenly be at the level of someone who's spent thousands of hours practicing and playing in ensembles from childhood onwards.
It would help get there. @@DaveyMulholland
I run everything through my UA 2-610 and it’s the sauce man. It makes every mix I’ve ever done sound absolutely incredible.
Warren you were talking about strangest gig. I had a gig (many years ago) and when we got to the club the owner decided not to let the band play. This is after we had loaded the band and instruments in two taxis to get to the gig. So we set up and played in the ally behind the club and emptied out the club!
That's one of the. craziest gig stories I've ever heard!
25 years ago or so, my 1st wife & I were chilling out after the last kids rang the bell on Halloween. Completely out of the blue, I got a call from an Israeli keyboard player/singer/band leader for a gig later that night in Alphabet City in Manhattan [way before it was gentrified]. I’d worked with this guy a few times, the gig paid $200 cash so I said OK. Benji said “wear black” and I was to find out why later - we played for a witches coven of about 2 dozen people celebrating the solstice! They were a bit strange but very nice. It was Benji, me on guitar and a totally out-of-place trumpet player who gave up & left after about an hour. Benji was more of a singer than keyboard player; had one of those magic one-finger Korgs; you pressed the key of the chord root & it made an instant arrangement. The problem was he could play a 4-hour Israeli wedding but not much else. I somehow dragged him through about 3 hours of no-vocal improv [a hell of a lot of it in D minor]. They loved it - and my car was still there when the gig was over.
Pete Sawchuk Pete that was good. Made me laugh at the end.
Loved the new lighting in the video, not to forget that you guys have been fabulous as always...
Leave your FAQ Friday questions below!
Warren, I usually miss these Live due to work commitments, so hopefully you will see this. Is there a method or other recommendation to those of us dealing with hearing loss? I have a significant loss in the 1-5khz range and tend to over emphasize those frequencies. I may have to rely more on "listening with my eyes" in this circumstance but am at a loss on which analyzers, etc. to utilize. Thank you so much for your guidance - Keith Mitchell
Really loving the new lighting and overall look and quality of the videos! Keep it up!
Warren you are a professor of music production to thousands of students. In my eyes and I'm sure everyone else who learns from you believes that you have much more than an audio degree, no paper could even begin to describe the skill you have! Don't ever let the lack of a price of paper make you feel as if you are less than you can be! You are and always will be the best YOU we could ever have the privilege to know! Thank you for everything you have done for us for all these years!!!
Just experiment n gain experience properly
I mix in the box, nearly all my sources head through my 1073 dual mic pre. Then once I have a mix ready, usually mix 10 :-), I master through a chain of analogue gear including my SSL Fusion, TLA audio valve compressor and Tegeler Creme too. The difference is incredible and how records need to sound, for me anyway. Truly fab to read what others and what you indeed do Warren. Thanks as ever! Marty
that is probably what most do that have the equipment.n experiment with + line etc......but then in your case you have the same sound in your mixes and Mastering work,,,, as you know project/production might need something different....etc
Always love FAQ Friday with you Warren! Cheers!!
On the school question - I went to “The Recording Workshop” in Chillicothe Ohio. Great school. Vocational type learning (as in not “tradition” type classroom teaching). Lots of hands on learning. Only a few weeks long. Affordable. Great staff and will never forget my experience there. BUT, still learned infinitely more in the field afterwards. Both are great, but really comes down to where you live and what you can afford (monetarily or otherwise).
Another helpful video. Thanks a ton Warren. Your knowledge is just sooooo helpful for us aspiring producers/engineers.
I have 1" 8 Track, 1/2" 4 Track, and 1/4" half track recorders fully up to date and tuned up. Love the sound.
Thanks ever so much for sharing!! I appreciate it Joe!
Awesome! My studio in 1985! I wish I still had it too.
Warren, Love your series and have been watching for 2 years. Minor history first, I'm a multi- instrumentalist, in order drums, bass guitar (Tuba, Euphonium), guitar, keys and low brass. I studied to be a musician, but fate got in the way and I was out of a home at 17 living in my car and playing in everything I could find from brass quartet at christmas time to drums for local theater companies and our very successful dance wedding band. I slept at the back of a dental lab which I was just starting to study "How to make Teeth", for a whole $3.10 an hour. had a very similar path as yours in a way. music was and is my love, so here I am at 58 going back to school, a community collage with a couple SSL's and way too much outboard gear to talk about, a Mastering room and all the goodies. For me it was that bug that I'm making money in the field but have no diploma, although I've run my own side job studio for 30 plus years. It was worth it in that I felt more alive in the industry, I became Protools 2 certified, I met contacts in many fields who did other things then I could supply in my studio, such as rapping, metal guitar and much more. I have a degree no matter how small it is ( Laughable really, you think they could spare the paper, at $ 1,200.00 a year, ). Anyway if you can, then do it, You definitely could teach the class and many nights I felt WHY did I do this. But in the end it was cool, I switched from MOTU to PT and got a ton of gear and plugs at student pricing. Even got PT for half off!!! So My set up, no surprise,... All UAD and A mess of plugs from them and waves and Fab Filter and ect,.... Outboard gear is very simple stuff, a Audient 880, Presonus Eureka for a dedicated Rode NTK, Aphex 207D running Spdif for my Overheads and the rest is all UAD running Neve 1176's on the way in. No Neve In Site on the way in but all Neve on the inside. I have a DBX 160 for bass, and thats about it. Thank you for your vids and all you do to make me a better mixer and musician, it is very appreciated, Your friend Greg
Your SUCH an Inspiring Sole Warren ! Just starting finished my bedroom Studio(65yo) w few analog rack items Behringer mostly w/Tascam 16 to a Presonus1824C-StudioOne V6. Fighting to get to recording as I am 3 years into intro to everything music resulting from a stroke 7 years ago to learn guitar ! I have to do this for the WIN. I will always listen to you. FAN ! Thank you for this Topic
Thank you as always for these videos, always make my Fridays better
Good question indeed... Just added a Neve 8816 summing mix to my rig. Looking forward to use it!!!
I needed Friday like Timmy Needed Lassie! I learn so much from FAQ Friday!
Hahaha Thanks Michael!
just bought a 24/4/2 Soundcraft Delta DLX, got it cheap as chips.. it's my first console and I plan to get it modified, I have no minimal experience and no education in the music industry.. I'm learning it as I go, I'm 38 and I can't wait to get stuck in.. your channel has been a real help and I plan to sign up as a member. Thank you for all you do!
Cheers my fellow audio adventurer! I thought about getting Delta DLX modules as well, because my engineer school had Soundcraft Ghost which I simply fell in love with. I liked mixing DAW productions with outboard gear, so everything went through the Ghost. It just sounded sculpted and warmer. It might've been the pres, could've been the EQs, I'm not sure.
Ended up collecting bunch of low-end compressors and EQs instead and now I have 10 channels of comp/EQ, couple soviet BBDs, tape delays and spring reverbs. Everything goes thru tubes at some point of the chain. It's dumb and impractical, but I just love it.
@@sytiravajous amazing, I’ve picked up a few bits over the years, still constantly adding. Picked up some reverbs and multi effect stuff. Couple comps. Would love some tube gear
Been waiting on this topic! Thanks once again Warren.
Hi Lamell! My pleasure!
Thanks for sharing your insight Warren. I believe you are the 1st industry pro, on You Tube, to clarify the analog summing ju-ju.
So wonderful to see. It's absolutely amazing to hear from someone with so much experience. Quite valuable indeed!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for sharing!
@@Producelikeapro My pleasure! Great work indeed!
RC32 thanks!! I’m so glad to be able to help! Have a marvellous time recording and mixing! many thanks Warren
@@Producelikeapro Thank you so much, friend! Cheers!
Great questions and great answers, thanks Warren. I track through a console and send stems back through stereo pairs into Pro Tools.
after spending years in the box, I’m going back to a hybrid system because there are analog qualities that I miss. I don’t know if they are heard as much as they are felt but I do know that I enjoy analog much better (for whatever reason).
analog changed my mixes forever
Thanks ever so much for sharing your process!
New videos are looking fantastic my friend 🙌
I've recently got my home studio up and running after a long sebatical new Daw etc. And currently obsessed with becoming a good mix engineer and watched hundreds of your videos, which have been a lifeline through lock down and hugley helpful. Im developing a hyrid system that works for me as I am in love with the idea, althouh im not there yet and would settle for a good mix in the box to start! I have an Allen and Heath Zed r 16 which is a very versatile desk for home use. As well as tracking in I buss back out and can send to a modest rack with a Tl audio c1, a cheap dbx for dirt, and my guitar pedals. and Ive just managed to get my hands on a 120a on your recomedation. I love it. Im on the cusp of a decent mix although it has been hard won. Gain staging and digital sound floor being the biggest learning curve as I had no head room left on my master bus when recording back in. Thanks Warren you are a huge insperation, keep up the good work
thankyou so much for providing your insights on schools. helped me a lot
Warren, the quality of video really makes a difference. Very nice
I recently started using a Tascam Model 16 to run my busses out through for some analogue summing. With no setting changes, literally just running all of my busses through the desk and back into the box. Everything had more depth, width and separation. I have been using many different plugins with saturation, crosstalk etc. to try and emulate this and thought I had it until I did this. It definitely makes a difference, it's not much but definitely noticeable.
Thanks ever so much for sharing
I find the same thing with my Soundcraft Signature MTK. I’m not sure about my final sum, but I really like having a summed bus to mix back in parallel.
Great FAQ Friday. Thank you, Warren.
I tend to use my analog gear on sub buses and on the mix bus and on prominent tracks, like bass, main vocals etc. In many cases, except of the mix bus treatment, it is more because I'm more creative with outboard gear than I am with plugins than obtaining a superior tone from analog gear.
Another point is that I love the wrongness analog gear adds.
For example non of my DBX 160's sound exactly the same. But even in this topic plugins are catching up.
In this case I think for example of the Tolerance Modeling Technology (TMT) the girls and guys from Plugin Alliance uses for their channels.
A while ago I considered if I should spend money on a DAW controller, something that does not affect the sound. I then decided to buy a Presonus Faderport 8 since I like the tactile work. And to my surprise it did in fact affect the sound in a positive way for it changed my workflow.
That's why I guess It's not only about to use hardware or plugins, mix in the box or go hybrid. One important part is to have a workflow that feels natural and supports your creativity.
We hear innumerous advices like that or similar. All, ALL comes back to a simple thinking: follow what you like to do! Just find early in life what you love to do and DO IT. Going to school to learn what you like is definitely valid but ultimately the empirical experience will define you as a professional. And to achieve that position in life you NEED to realize what you like to do early in life and do it. This is an advice for any line of work in this planet. I really wished that my parents could have taught me that when I was little...
I bought and built my studio and learning from you and other guys. Thanks!🙏
Great video. I am thinking about a SSL 6 and this video has been very useful !
I am a full time mixing engineer, I mix for music and film. For music, I mix ITB in Sequoia, but then my master buss leaves the digital world via a Mytek D/A feeding a Great River MAQ-2NV Mastering Equalizer into a Manley Mastering Edition Variable Mu Compressor with TBar Mod and we print to 1/4” Tape at 15IPS which is a MCI JH110B with API 2520s on the ins/outs. For me each adds something I just can't get ITB and its worth the extra effort for the depth and feel it adds. It really makes it sound like a Finished record. Some may say that the end user does not hear the difference and mp3s' are fine... but I do hear it and I love music, thats why I do this.
This is a great chapter, thank you Warren. I have a pair of Golden Age Pre 573 I use on the final bus (sub-master) which is fed from different aux busses (drums, GTRs, Bass, Keyboards, and Vocals), these are the only analog pieces of equipment I used on my mixes, everything else are plugins, including nice coloring ones like Kush's transformer, SSL's X-Saturator, Slate's tape and so on.
I liked the "beef" I got from passing the audio through the GAP transformers, actually, I was thinking in getting the Premiere version that has Carnhill transformers.
Cheers!~
I still use analog (hybrid). I have a Midas Venice F32 mixer. I mix mostly in the box, but the mixer is my first level of EQ or perhaps sub mixing on my way into the computer. It also allows me not to need to repatch everything for tracking, since I have per-channel digital I/O. Very efficient work flow
Hi Warren. As always, great video. I was lucky enough to get a Dangerous D-Box+ recently along with a couple of CAPI Heiders (designed directly from the API 312). I sum through the D-Box+ which has a fantastic 8-channel summing mixer and then through the CAPIs, then through my RND 551 EQs (they are amazing), and then through my Warm Audio Mix Buss comp SSL style compressor. I do record my vocals through a Warm Audio U47 tube mic (such a great mic), a Phoenix Audio mic pre, and the WA 76 compressor. Love these chains.
I've never been this early, really great vid!
Yay! Thank you! Thanks for sharing!
Hey Warren, thanks for sharing your thoughts on various topics. With analog summing, let me share my 5 cents worth of experience having done professional mixes for a multitude of artistes across the Asian region.
I personally think that the first step is always always always fix how you hear; getting your room acoustics right and getting a good pair of reference speakers to work on. I cannot stress how much the monitoring is for an engineer akin to a color grader working in the video industry looking at a non-calibrated screen. Everything's going to turn out wrong and inaccurate. Once you understand how your room and speakers sound, the mixing will be alot easier in terms of making judgements on decisions in the mix.
With analog summing it's sort of a black hole and opinions vary from individual to individual. I have spoken to industry friends who swear by analog summing and have also known grammy-winning engineers who hate the idea of summing. Everyone has their own thoughts on how good is it or not. I've done mixes where it was summed through an SSL Matrix and also an SSL Sigma and i do notice a difference in the stereo field and depth of the mix. Is it better than the ITB mix? I'm not sure but it does sound different. I like some elements of the summed mix but other elements of the ITB mix. I guess it's a personal preference.
Of late i've been into the Brainworx bx consoles and I think they are an absolute god-send. I'm able to get various colors of consoles which I would have a hard time having access to by just slapping them across each channel in my session and mixing through them. Want a Neve-ish kind of sound? the Console N works great. They have 3 flavors of SSL consoles being the 4000 E & G and 9000 J, each with their own color and sound.
With all that's being said I think I see all these emulations as colors rather than whether it's being true to the original. I have a hybrid setup in my studio as well with a handful of hardware EQs and compressors that I use on occasion to achieve certain results. That's just my personal experience I hope this helps anyone out there!
Does mixing in the analog summing mixer gives more depth than ITB....Thank you.
I mix through an Allen & Heath Zed R16, also use a couple Warm Audio WA 2A, a Drawmer 1973 and a Neve 5043. The learning curve that was the steepest for the three compressors was the Neve. I cannot make the WA 2As sound bad, I can work well with the Drawmer, but I am careful with the Neve- I dunno why, but I have to be more gentle with it. It's all fun! BTW, I love the EQ on the Zed!
As a producer making loads of modern pop and dance records, I’ve found myself seeking that glue. Not the compression glue, But the tonal glue.
Having all samples coming from different sources , kick, snare perc etc , It makes sense to run it through a piece of gear that adds a bit of harmonics to all pieces, or just get some box tone.
Also, Summing would be the same thing. There’s an absolute separation between all sounds in an programmed track, summing all though one piece of gear, like the vancouver burl, seems to be a way without compression or eq to subtly marry the mix
This was a very intelligent and honest explanation. I wish I could afford an analog summing mixer, just to see if it made a difference...
Can you rent something where you live to try it out?
I use several pieces of analog gear - for tracking acoustic guitar, I have 2 signal chains for my spaced pair of Warm Audio Mics .... on the WA251 (set over the shoulder) I use Lindell vintage 500 series preamp, Eq and compressor - then through a Neve 542 before heading into my Apollo X4... on the WA47 ( 12” from 12th fret) I have an SSL 500 series chain including preamp, eq and LMC+ compressor, though the Neve 542 and into the Apollo ....
For my vocal I track through a UAD 6176 ...
I also us an analog master bus signal chain - I usually come out of the DAW (Logic Pro X) to an SSL Fusion, Warm Audio Bus Compressor, the Maag Master Bus EQ then through a pair of Neve 542’s - I’ll use some of all of this gear depending on the source/song/artist...
Why go back to school when there are great people like you on RUclips who can teach the masses!
Using a dbx 386 on all my tracks. It adds “warmth” (I know everyone will understand) that I don’t find in plugins’ treatments. Can’t live without!
Nicely done informative 👏 👍!
Wow! Your lighting is on point!
Oh thank you!
Hi Warren - great stuff as ever sir 👍🏻 Re the great Analogue Summing debate - I bought a BURL B32 VANCOUVER summing mixer in conjunction with an Antelope Orion 32+ ... I think I’ve used it on a couple of mixes in 5 years ! Yes it brings a little colouration - but the results are very program dependent and there’s definitely a learning curve re how hard you hit it ! I feel my ITB mixes are less ‘soupy’ and invariably cleaner & punchier. It’s subjective for sure but based on the above - I lean towards being completely ITB these days... Recalls are much easier and more consistent & reliable too. Ironically - I also went to Leeds College of Music way back in 1997 before I went to LIPA in Liverpool - both brilliant places and amazing learning experiences!
I use dangerous 2-bus lt, neve 1073 pre amps, ssl611eq and obsidian 500 stereo compressor and i love this!!
I love your phrase on the reason you wouldn't want to add a L and R preamp it to the stereo bus, 'like slamming it with a sledge hammer and hoping for the best' lol lol - I hear you warren! :) me too!
Recently Ive been research Clipping! That is something that all the younger engineers are doing (after waves L2/L3 era) to slam individual tracks, like shakers hats brass etc, that would be a cool topic too!
I've been using the Electrodyne Summing Station - it's simply amazing.
Mix busses. A little Analog gear on mix busses. Digital on individual tracks. Best of both worlds.
and a little summ ;)
I still occasionally run stems to quarter inch two track to obtain a "different" sound on instruments and vocals. 15IPS with CCIR EQ curve works best for me at +4 using 456 tape. I do also have half inch two track as well, but I find that the best compression comes from quarter inch tape. In the 1980's when I recorded at Powerstation in New York, the engineers would mostly print mixes to quarter inch tape, even though they had half inch at their disposal. All of those great albums that came out of that studio from Bruce, Bryan Adams, Duran Duran, BonJovi were all mixed to quarted inch tape. They preferred 3M 250 tape as it provided them with a feel that the standard 456 tape could not be able to reproduce. Currently, I own several pieces of Manley gear as well as a racked pair of Neve 33022a preamps with the BBC T1801 transformers. They sound incredible! Of course, I own an LA2A, DBX 165,two Distressors and two Liquid Channels. I find myself often running the stereo mix through two API 550b's in totally flat setting just to get something "extra". Other times, with the right plugins, the mixes sound great, especially using the UA Studer tape machine or the Ampex ATR 2 track plugin. I track exclusively with a Manley VoxBox, or the two racked Neve's. Plugins are getting better by the minute, and I can foresee the day when I will not need to run anything through tape. I also have a trick that was used at Powerstation with Bias on a tape machine to make tracks sound toasty. My 2 Inch 16 track machine has not seen much action in a few years. That may go on the auction block soon. I loved your video because you explain it using your own experience, yet, it's OK for others to have their own. Great work!
Re: “digital sounding” colloquial characterization. The term I think best describes the sound is “sterile” or better yet “clinical” material having unmusical or minimal harmonic content.
Yes, I dislike using terms like 'digital sounding' for 'warm' they are very misleading! Thanks for sharing your opinion!
I keep changing my mind on this topic. I generally agree with what you're saying, but if you listen to Kenna's New Sacred Cow (2003) album, THAT thing is 100% digital-sounding! There's nothing about it that could be characterized as "warm", but because of the material and intention of the artist, it works perfectly....so you can't say it's not "musical". It's beautifully musical and sterile at the same time. Which means that none of the words I just used make any sense 😂
would say "electronic" or synthesized i guess...
Technically, "digital" means sampled and thus "pure" because there is nothing added and nothing audible taken away. Or in other words, what goes in, come out the same. What we like about "analog" is the stuff that happens when voltage ramps through circuits and creates non-linearities that take away or add something to the original signal. Summing is similar because voltage ramping from signals dynamically changing both in frequency range and gain, creates a "softer" and more forgiving result when the circuit overloads. When a DAW mixer overloads, it just sounds awful. Something about how signals combine in a circuit path reliant on voltage, is why we tend to prefer analog summing over conventional digital. I will add that I've been using Harrison MIxbus exclusively for mixdowns for years (producing in other DAWs) and sold my Neve summer a couple years back because I was actually preferring the Mixbus versions pretty much every time I'd do an A/B test.
Autodidactic Professor I avoid using “pure” in audio context because I have yet to encounter it. Being how “digital” is artificial by design, it requires analog equipment to capture and convert it to be experienced in the physical realm. There will be impurities which may sound good or not.
I think the reason why “we” [sic] fetishize analog summing and mixing has more to do with the phasing and relation between tracks, especially if coupled by transformers on every channel. Each one is slightly different than the next from core to wire to windings, and if well designed (or not) they color the sound through harmonic distortion, frequency response and phase shift which many ears find flattering.
If our ears become digital, and you can upload yourself into binary to create, mix and experience music digitally then I will call it pure. A pure dystopian nightmare.
I've been using the SSL X Rack for 16 channel(8 Stereo) with my Pro Tools HD. I send all the drums into a stereo bus, all guitars on another Keyboards, Bass and then vocals into 2 XR623 and I XR623 line inputs. I have 8 stereo buses in Pro Tools that goes straight into an Apogee 16 channel DA the into the SSL rack. Each bus has inserts so I can use 2 stereo Chandler Limited TC2 or other outboard gear. I send a stereo out from the SSL into a stereo bus for printing a mix.I can also inset my API 2500 stereo bus compressor into the stereo stereo SSL mix out. I've been using it for many years.
This year I went back to my old process of creating summed stems and then I mix the stems in the box. To my ears I notice a difference in quality and by quality I mean it sounds analog, smooth, warm and finished (all the cliches, haha). I should mention I do own plenty of quality plugins. Sometimes I have plugins on running into the outboard chain. All the best....
Great advices about analog summing and schooling!
Thanks ever so much
I have an inexpensive 8 channel analog pre and record as much as I can through it, and then to converters and I love the little tiny bit of wrongness(warmth) it gives me 🤟.
It was a useful information, thank you!)
I like the slate console stuff. I use the preamp a console on the way in, and use his mix buss summing on the rear buss. It does really take care of that digital fizz..
I use a hybrid set up. I of course edit ITB and use a lot of ITB fx but I like to mix it so it sounds pretty good ITB but then I send busses out to an analog mixer and process with some OTB fx as well. Then send it back to the box.
i've experienced this not too long ago. I own a soundcraft, from te late '80s, before the company was sold to Harman. The desk is nothing fancy but it is sturdy and it certainly has a sound to it, a lot better quality than the desks they make nowadays. However, i can't use it now because i'm saving up for an interface that has 32 in-/outputs, so now it's just a glorified laptop stand.
Anyway, i was mixing a little score for a film (in the box) and i thought: "why don't go trough the desk?" So i patched it up, pressed play, and WOW!! What a sound, it's like you mentioned, it now has weight, depth and every other buzz word you'll find. it didn't necessarily sound that different, but it felt different, the music became more alive somehow!
I always had this feeling with the real deal, the high end stuff. But i never imagined that the mid tier analog equipement could give me the same. The high end does sound better. But if you're looking for that weight, you don't have to spend that much money. but yeah, maybe i'm just lucky with this particular desk. :p
Mathijs van der Wallen I hear ya man it’s like it has something you can’t put your finger on but you can feel it. I never knew what people meant when they said that a mix sounded taller until
I got my ssl a few years ago. When I listen to mixes I did in the box or on one of my several suuming amps they honestly sound like they’ve been flattened it’s weird man lol
Very interesting topics today.
I didn't go to music school but I play on the same stages as the kids who did. School is not important, education and application of knowledge and experience is. You can't find passion in books, its in your heart. If you love it, you will be as good as the person who went to school, if not better.
Warren, you're great!!! Thanks.
After years in Pro Tools and Cubase I am having a blast using UA Luna. I think their plugins sounds natural, real and the sonics reminds me of the hardware even though I hate to say it as it goes against my childhood dream of having a old school analogue studio. I use LUNA as I would use any of their hardware products. I rig every recording channel just as If I had the luxury of having all the tools in my arsenal. It makes everything from my guitars, to my vocals, my bass etc. sound like a million. This is said by a guy who spend thousand of ours in world-class studios with my own recording heroes.
Hey man, this video is a great insight. I like the dual perspective about schooling. I'm personally a self-learner, go and grab something "and play with it, compare my work to other people, learn from the mixers and musicians that I enjoy. That's about it for me. School was a struggle and I couldn't keep such a tight focus. It's also confusing because there's a ladder. First you graduate primary, then go to general college where they make you relearn everything you may not like such as economics in 1800, then you have only a few hours to devote to passionate topics like music and audio. That done, you can be allowed into a music school. At least that was the feeling in the States. Nope, too much work for me for almost no gain. I'm burning years of my young life learning and stressing about things I have little interest in. Not for me. So I skipped that. Granted, I'm not making money at it yet, but I will. I am to blame for not being devoted enough to putting my work out there and dangling feelers for people to reach out to me.
Either way, this just kind of shows something I have said over and over. If you love something enough you can make it work.
peace
I use the original Dangerous 2 Bus for summing and I swear by it definitely sonically as well as process-wise. It's not a matter of just taking a mix and spreading it out, though I do think that that helps - it's more of mixing into it. Also seeing the analog outs from PT helps me to keep my mixes "honest" meaning I generally wind up having to lower bus levels to not overload. Also, the beautiful interface appeals to me ,and feels like having a console in a box. I do get better results, without a doubt.
Whoa! First to learn something new, let's go!!
Hi Chris!! Thanks ever so much!
Ive been mixing on an ssl 948 delta every day for four years now. Love it. I do all my sessions through it too even I’m tracking (I use different pres though lol) with a two track mix I just use channel 1 for my music and 13 for the vocals. It’s awesome for quickly dialing headphone mixes for the artist plus I have a general eq that has a slight midrange bump and a slight high shelf on the top end that really gives the vocals extra oomph in the rough mix plus the rough mix is getting hit with a little ssl bus compression for even more goodness. My clients are going home with rough mixes that kill most of the final mixes they have done before coming to me haha. I also think that when I do a full mix through the desk it gives it a taller more expansive sound. More 3D in IMHO and I feel like I get way less recalls because the mixes are vibier so the artists tend to fixate less on minor details that don’t really matter. There are 3 or 4 guys out there who I really respect that can great a great in the box sound and idk how they do it but for the most part my favorite mixes are still being done on consoles. 😁
I write my songs in different DAWs but the last thing i make is the whole signal came out from computer in 2x4 channel and summing this and go a stereo signal into the Drawmer 1976 saturator, Drawmer 1974 EQ and lastly the Art VLA II compressor.
This signal go back in the computer.
This chain is to me is very simple and efficient.
I use Slate Digital Virtual Tube Collection to color the sound of my mix buss. I also use it on a reverb send to add warmth to reverb. There's no need to turn up the saturation knob, just a slight touch of the effect can do the job.
My Masterbuss always goes to 2 stereo preamps (Rupert Neve 5024) to heat up the signal and then they hit my stereo compressor (JDK R22) for glue and tightness. Killer results!
Hi, i quite similar. Did you try summing mixer now ?
No, I keep doing it the same way@@MELOPSMUSIC
I use the SSL SiX at every stage. I record every element through it including running the Helix into the line inputs. Then during mix, I sum 8 channels through it using the bus compressor and then back in the box for final processing. Then in mastering, I take it back out through 2 of the channels for mastering. Just the little bit of saturation and natural coloration that it imparts along the way adds up. Very versatile unit.
Sounds like a lot of work though.
Daniel Dalley not really I have an interface with 8 analog line out and in. And it's all routed through a patchy bay.
"just a little bit of saturation and natural coloration"? Whats natural about 4 - 6 stages of harmonic distortion?
@@dorkruckus You don't have to like it but transformers impart harmonic distortions. You can completely oversaturate and completely destroy the sound or you can just gently drive the channels to impart very small distortions. The SSL SiX is actually very clean and flat unless you drive it a bit and then it starts to give a little saturation especially in the high mids. To me, it's a very pleasant sound and keeps me from loading up on various analog modeled plugins. After all, that's what the plugins do, they model the harmonic distortions. What is natural about the console is that you get all the character for free and then you also get the crossplay when it sums through the bus compressor and master bus. Otherwise, you're using some console simulation to do this like Slate VCC or Waves NLS. Again, you don't have to like it but I find that it simplifies mixes and helps
me use fewer plugins.
@@JasonBuffin I love my six as well.
This is nice lecture!!
I have been mixed only plugins.
But to improve my work of sound quality
I started to using preamp for vocal recording.
and now also I often use for drum track summing.
result was very nice. I could realize that more gule from my mixing.
finally I'm korean.
when I was puberty.
korea had not good institutions for learnig to music recording technology.
so I decided to go japan for schooling.
After graduated from school.
I got a job in japan as a field recording engineer. It was a kind different job from the music industry. but It was a really nice experience to me. I had learned a lot of knowledge from work.
After I come back to korea. I've been worked as a sound system designer.
Of course this job is related to sound industry but Sound system designer is required another ability from field recording engineer.
Somtimes I think
if I didn't have a diploma. Maybe I would not have got this job in korea.
Now I'm making music and relese my works. but as well as I still working for making living.
As you put it that these days music industry is confront with hard sircumstance. so get a job in music industry is a very hard.
Schooling in institution is not must.
but I think.
diploma is just like a insurance that helps to choose a job more widely.
Thank you for uploading this video.
I definitely need summing. I hope summing shows up soon!
Hi Stephen! Thanks for sharing!
Produce Like A Pro ✌️You’re welcome. Let me know if summing happens.
I use SSL X-desk on my every mixes , it sounds really good for me !!!!!
Love!
Great to hear! Thanks for sharing!
Dinosatriani, it has been 9 months since this comment. Are you still using your X-desk? Are you using it to record and mix? What DAW are you using it with? I am very curious because I am looking at the X-desk as a possibility. What are the pros and cons you have run into?
I use a Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK. It is an analog board with converters both directions for every channel. I did not purchase it for the ability to individually send, but now that I know about it, I’ve been playing around. The signal is sent on each track before the rest of the channel (pre eq, etc), but I’ve been rerouting a second track for some of my mics or summing a couple mics and printing some extra tracks as I go.
A/B’ing them later I have be surprised to find I really like the influence of the analog board. I tend to like a blend of the two, but as my skills improve, I expect I might utilize the natural compression a lot more. I will also be experimenting with analog summing my mix busses and then doing the final sum in the box. Thanks for a very informative video (as always).
I mentioned this on another one of your videos, but RUclips likes verbosity.
SHADOW HILLS EQUINOX----- My 2020 summing setup involves the Shadow Hills Equinox. That is my summing box of choice, mixed to to external 2 track . Massive amounts of hardware (CL1B, RS124's, LA3A, 2A's, Sta-Level, 1176's, Pultec etc...). I came out of the generation that was dare I say ..."Pre-digital recording". Otari MTR90, Studer, Ampex. The 1st boar that I ever touched was a Harrison back in 1984. I need to feel it and touch it. If I can calibrate it and can touch a capstan then I'm happy. There is a kinesthetic enjoyment to working with what you can touch and sculpting sound from a visceral perspective that does not involve the clicking of a mouse. The Shadow Hills Equinox is a beast of a machine. I sum 16 out from the DAW. No more. my 128 point patchbay sums into the Equinox. All 32 channels are used on the Equinox. 3 different trannie selections. Iron , Nickel, and Steel which is more mid forward, More American Motownish). In the end, what makes you happy? For myself, I have to touch, feel the texture of it all and feel a connection between my ears, galvanic skin response, my hands, my eyes, my abdomen and last but certainly not least... my heart. May we all be true to our paths and respectful of those who choose a different one. Enjoy!
One thought, when you say you're making better ITB mixes than your older analog ones... you're a better mixer today than yesterday, so I think that's pretty natural. And it proves the point, ITB is good enough, and you're applying more skill and knowledge than before.
For me though... Dammit! I can't blame the gear anymore. ;)
I don't regret not going to school beyond high school but I do see the potential value in contacts made, experience(s) gained and just simply "getting out of Dodge". If you live somewhere where there aren't opportunities to take advantage of for the field you're interested in, school might be a way to break away and gain potential opportunities and life-relevant experiences. One last thought: being surrounded by people with shared interests is HUGE, regardless of the interest. Warren is, of course, right on all accounts, just adding a few other considerations. Once you're settled into your life, the opportunities can become quite limited and sometimes don't come your way again.
Currently doing everything on my laptop. Using a Focusrite interface into an older macbook, into Reaper, and mixing with various plugins including some Waves SSL and CLA stuff (I love the C4 & CLA-76) and built-in stuff.
I recently got a dangerous mix buss +.
One thing I noticed that stood out is the separation between send efx and audio files. Seems like more depth of field as well
first time you do analog processing?
@@atta1798 to the level I'm doing now, yes
@@MikeRP3147 what is the difference?
@@atta1798 it's hard to put into words but I feel sounds have more weight to them. Like they picked up some extra going through the circuitry. And there is also the separation of things.
Like I said it's hard to pit into words.
@@MikeRP3147 what equipment did you have
Warren,I used to only listen to advice from Al Schmitt, and Bruce Swedien. I have added you to the list.
Chandler zener through an SSL six. Love the sound and feel. Inspires more work and soo its job is done.
Thank you Warren!!
Thanks ever so much
Great point on recording with all Neve mic pres' on each track. If you do that, you already have the analog (analogue) goodness on the tracks. Adding more at the end may put too much of that character.
I’ve been using THE basic StudioLive XMax pres to record practices live and it was defiantly sterile. So I took the plunge and picked up an 8 ch NEVE 1073 OPX. Running it line in, What a difference. It reduces a lot of work getting That sound.
The hobbyist keep analog alive and well !!!
certainly a good time to buy up some analog audio relics while people are still moving to plugins, once they become rare collectibles not so easy....but the cost and performance of plugins is amazing now....if your hobby is music, you can do a lot better than analog....if your hobby is guarding holy relics, that is another matter...we are being ripped from the analog universe into the digital one, and I mean that in the fullest sense, we are leaving reality and entering the simulation...the guardians of the links to the old reality might be custodians of something sacred and powerful. Soon we will be able to print a meal from a parisienne restaurant anywhere in the world...this is all nuts and it is going to go a lot further than we can even imagine.
Thank you Warren❣️ 😊
It's always good to hear opinions about these things. At the end of the day I don't think there's any one right answer. Try different things and file away the ones you find useful or interesting. I like running a mix back to tape. Just seems to glue it all together. I can achieve similar effects in the box but the two are different ways. If I'm doing this just for myself then it's my opinion as to which one sounds better. If I'm doing it for someone else then it's their call. It would be great if we all had access to top notch gear but we don't so sometimes that mix is going through an ART VLA which is highly affordable. Maybe I'll pick something trashy just to put a little different spin on it. I like to think that there are no limits. "If it sounds right, it is right." I think that's a Joe Meek quote.
You get a new camera _---marvelous!
I used various mic pres and channel strips that have a particular flavor. Undertone Audio MPEQ-1's that can be both clean and have a thicker tone when using the transformers. I also LOVE my old Neve 1272's especially for lead vocals. I have a couple of other units in pairs in case I want to record stereo live V72's and older Grace audio which are open, large and clean. I get a lot of great sound on the front end of a capture. For mixing, I have a small, custom API mixer with vintage 2503's and API Opamps and a master buss insert for adding compressors and eq. It makes difference in the the quality of the print for sure. I wish I had space for a large console. I love the Rupert Neve 5059, you get 16 channels going to 2 stereo busses and each individual track can be panned and has a insert for other outboard gear.
Do whatever sounds good for you and what you can afford ✌I love pushing Vocal Stems through Guitar Pedals !!!
Sounds different than the plugins and makes fun to push the knobs 🤘
The one thing about summing it is designed to bring audio in at -10 -20 db so you can bring the volume up into the daw to get that tiny bit of saturation almost clipping like a console would do. Natural compression. That sweet stuff. It is very noticeable to me. I even at times will sum a individual lead vocal track several passes to knock out annoying digital frequencies and over all the the final mix will be summed into 4 or 5 busses. You get that tiny bit of rich harmonics and better mono placement on kick, bass lead vocals. Anything up the middle sounds better in true analog for sure. I feel it is necessary when it comes to stacking tracks and so on. Everything seems to glue together with more headroom, less eq and compression. Thats what I love about summing,. The fact at when I mix a song I am using less plugins and you're getting that console sound. I use to be big on AD/DA conversion but once I got the summing mixer it all changed. I can even monitor the mix through mine the way it was built custom for my Apollo 8xp. Magic in a box is what I call it. I also record with analog outboard gear. Put it this way. Anything I can do to get rid of that digital sound. When I bought this Apollo I wanted to check out the unison stuff. Its great but fr me not for recording in. I was still getting all that digital harshness especially on vocals. I found myself grabbing plugin after plugin until I had like 8 plugins on a vocal track. Now I might have 1 or 2.
I like analog summing amps! 😋😉
Have a spl Mixdream with 60volt transformers and then go to Focusrite Isa preamps
(with Lundal Trafos) back in PC! 🤟
I really like this combination! 🥰💫🕺
In the low end area you notice the analog summing very much, more pressure and punch and the mid and hi more details presenter!
I have a 5012 but never thought of using it this way. My opinion is that it will Not round off anything...but great idea from Warren to send the drum bus through it. I now have a RND 542 tape emulator..which does what it says better than any plugin I've heard, as does sending anything through my Inward Connections Brute. I have only one of each though..so Mono.
Wonderful succinct info😁
That's very kind! Glad you think so!
Alsways giving out soo much great info! What camera are you using it looks great!?