Do I really need acoustic treatment in my room while recording high gain guitars with dynamic mics (right at the speaker grill)? I'm a bedroom musician and I usually shy away from recording actual amps because I don't know what I'm doing & also there's the convenience of amp sims. However, the times that I have tried micing up an amp (Shure SM58, solid state Marshall combo), I didn't really hear the "room" and I quite liked it. My room isn't big and is packed with a lot of stuff.
The tracks that I've downloaded from PLAP so far have all been 48k. I've always worked in 48k for Video and 44.1K for audio releases to avoid problems with conversion aliasing. Why track them in 48K? Is it because you plan to release on RUclips? Are the codecs so improved that aliasing is no longer an issue when downconverting for CD? Thanks.
I use the SSL SiX at every stage. I record every element through it including running the Helix into the line inputs. Then during mix, I sum 8 channels through it using the bus compressor and then back in the box for final processing. Then in mastering, I take it back out through 2 of the channels for mastering. Just the little bit of saturation and natural coloration that it imparts along the way adds up. Very versatile unit.
@@dorkruckus You don't have to like it but transformers impart harmonic distortions. You can completely oversaturate and completely destroy the sound or you can just gently drive the channels to impart very small distortions. The SSL SiX is actually very clean and flat unless you drive it a bit and then it starts to give a little saturation especially in the high mids. To me, it's a very pleasant sound and keeps me from loading up on various analog modeled plugins. After all, that's what the plugins do, they model the harmonic distortions. What is natural about the console is that you get all the character for free and then you also get the crossplay when it sums through the bus compressor and master bus. Otherwise, you're using some console simulation to do this like Slate VCC or Waves NLS. Again, you don't have to like it but I find that it simplifies mixes and helps me use fewer plugins.
I mix in the box, nearly all my sources head through my 1073 dual mic pre. Then once I have a mix ready, usually mix 10 :-), I master through a chain of analogue gear including my SSL Fusion, TLA audio valve compressor and Tegeler Creme too. The difference is incredible and how records need to sound, for me anyway. Truly fab to read what others and what you indeed do Warren. Thanks as ever! Marty
that is probably what most do that have the equipment.n experiment with + line etc......but then in your case you have the same sound in your mixes and Mastering work,,,, as you know project/production might need something different....etc
Warren you were talking about strangest gig. I had a gig (many years ago) and when we got to the club the owner decided not to let the band play. This is after we had loaded the band and instruments in two taxis to get to the gig. So we set up and played in the ally behind the club and emptied out the club!
25 years ago or so, my 1st wife & I were chilling out after the last kids rang the bell on Halloween. Completely out of the blue, I got a call from an Israeli keyboard player/singer/band leader for a gig later that night in Alphabet City in Manhattan [way before it was gentrified]. I’d worked with this guy a few times, the gig paid $200 cash so I said OK. Benji said “wear black” and I was to find out why later - we played for a witches coven of about 2 dozen people celebrating the solstice! They were a bit strange but very nice. It was Benji, me on guitar and a totally out-of-place trumpet player who gave up & left after about an hour. Benji was more of a singer than keyboard player; had one of those magic one-finger Korgs; you pressed the key of the chord root & it made an instant arrangement. The problem was he could play a 4-hour Israeli wedding but not much else. I somehow dragged him through about 3 hours of no-vocal improv [a hell of a lot of it in D minor]. They loved it - and my car was still there when the gig was over.
Funny that I am watching this video. Last week I worked on a production for an old school blues single. The engineer did a good job, by the book but the band was still unhappy with the result.They were at mastering level completely out of the allotted time. The band leader was complaining to me about the overall sound. Based on the feedback that I received from the band I send an email to engineer and ask him to try to run the finished mastered song thought a couple of Neve type of preamp with the gain pushed quite a bit. The band was so happy about the result, they couldn't believe their ears.
I'd love to see more episodes about songwriting, pre-production and arranging like you did a bit a few weeks ago. Because all mixing stuff is useless when the song isn't good... more attention on the initial creative process would be so great to watch. And if you start interviewing producers again, an extensive interview / studio tour with Howard Benson on his producing techniques (especially how he doubles the recorded parts with synths / pads at home) would be very interesting.
People spend years and years and years learning about actual musicianship. You can't expect to watch a few videos and suddenly be at the level of someone who's spent thousands of hours practicing and playing in ensembles from childhood onwards.
I recently started using a Tascam Model 16 to run my busses out through for some analogue summing. With no setting changes, literally just running all of my busses through the desk and back into the box. Everything had more depth, width and separation. I have been using many different plugins with saturation, crosstalk etc. to try and emulate this and thought I had it until I did this. It definitely makes a difference, it's not much but definitely noticeable.
I find the same thing with my Soundcraft Signature MTK. I’m not sure about my final sum, but I really like having a summed bus to mix back in parallel.
The one thing about summing it is designed to bring audio in at -10 -20 db so you can bring the volume up into the daw to get that tiny bit of saturation almost clipping like a console would do. Natural compression. That sweet stuff. It is very noticeable to me. I even at times will sum a individual lead vocal track several passes to knock out annoying digital frequencies and over all the the final mix will be summed into 4 or 5 busses. You get that tiny bit of rich harmonics and better mono placement on kick, bass lead vocals. Anything up the middle sounds better in true analog for sure. I feel it is necessary when it comes to stacking tracks and so on. Everything seems to glue together with more headroom, less eq and compression. Thats what I love about summing,. The fact at when I mix a song I am using less plugins and you're getting that console sound. I use to be big on AD/DA conversion but once I got the summing mixer it all changed. I can even monitor the mix through mine the way it was built custom for my Apollo 8xp. Magic in a box is what I call it. I also record with analog outboard gear. Put it this way. Anything I can do to get rid of that digital sound. When I bought this Apollo I wanted to check out the unison stuff. Its great but fr me not for recording in. I was still getting all that digital harshness especially on vocals. I found myself grabbing plugin after plugin until I had like 8 plugins on a vocal track. Now I might have 1 or 2.
Warren you are a professor of music production to thousands of students. In my eyes and I'm sure everyone else who learns from you believes that you have much more than an audio degree, no paper could even begin to describe the skill you have! Don't ever let the lack of a price of paper make you feel as if you are less than you can be! You are and always will be the best YOU we could ever have the privilege to know! Thank you for everything you have done for us for all these years!!!
after spending years in the box, I’m going back to a hybrid system because there are analog qualities that I miss. I don’t know if they are heard as much as they are felt but I do know that I enjoy analog much better (for whatever reason).
Was browsing through some thread from another social media about summing and I remember seeing one of your videos about the Neve and here I am, watching your videos again. :) Really enjoy your channel, I was just trying out mixing 2 years ago and I can't imagine finishing 7 songs that our band recorded during the pandemic. A lot of sleepless nights watching your videos on vocals, bass and drums mixing along with the videos from Marc Nelson. A lot of thanks to you. And what's motivating is what you said here. I didn't go to school for mixing too but like you, I just like plugging and testing things and I just dove right in with our band's project and luckily it turned out ok. Thanks again and looking forward to more of your videos.
i've applied to OIART and applying to more colleges soon! i have turned 18 today, it is my birthday so yay. very fortunate as Steven Slate and John McLucas will be writing reference letters for me. waiting for feedback friday!
I am a full time mixing engineer, I mix for music and film. For music, I mix ITB in Sequoia, but then my master buss leaves the digital world via a Mytek D/A feeding a Great River MAQ-2NV Mastering Equalizer into a Manley Mastering Edition Variable Mu Compressor with TBar Mod and we print to 1/4” Tape at 15IPS which is a MCI JH110B with API 2520s on the ins/outs. For me each adds something I just can't get ITB and its worth the extra effort for the depth and feel it adds. It really makes it sound like a Finished record. Some may say that the end user does not hear the difference and mp3s' are fine... but I do hear it and I love music, thats why I do this.
On the school question - I went to “The Recording Workshop” in Chillicothe Ohio. Great school. Vocational type learning (as in not “tradition” type classroom teaching). Lots of hands on learning. Only a few weeks long. Affordable. Great staff and will never forget my experience there. BUT, still learned infinitely more in the field afterwards. Both are great, but really comes down to where you live and what you can afford (monetarily or otherwise).
Hey Warren, thanks for sharing your thoughts on various topics. With analog summing, let me share my 5 cents worth of experience having done professional mixes for a multitude of artistes across the Asian region. I personally think that the first step is always always always fix how you hear; getting your room acoustics right and getting a good pair of reference speakers to work on. I cannot stress how much the monitoring is for an engineer akin to a color grader working in the video industry looking at a non-calibrated screen. Everything's going to turn out wrong and inaccurate. Once you understand how your room and speakers sound, the mixing will be alot easier in terms of making judgements on decisions in the mix. With analog summing it's sort of a black hole and opinions vary from individual to individual. I have spoken to industry friends who swear by analog summing and have also known grammy-winning engineers who hate the idea of summing. Everyone has their own thoughts on how good is it or not. I've done mixes where it was summed through an SSL Matrix and also an SSL Sigma and i do notice a difference in the stereo field and depth of the mix. Is it better than the ITB mix? I'm not sure but it does sound different. I like some elements of the summed mix but other elements of the ITB mix. I guess it's a personal preference. Of late i've been into the Brainworx bx consoles and I think they are an absolute god-send. I'm able to get various colors of consoles which I would have a hard time having access to by just slapping them across each channel in my session and mixing through them. Want a Neve-ish kind of sound? the Console N works great. They have 3 flavors of SSL consoles being the 4000 E & G and 9000 J, each with their own color and sound. With all that's being said I think I see all these emulations as colors rather than whether it's being true to the original. I have a hybrid setup in my studio as well with a handful of hardware EQs and compressors that I use on occasion to achieve certain results. That's just my personal experience I hope this helps anyone out there!
I recently got a dangerous mix buss +. One thing I noticed that stood out is the separation between send efx and audio files. Seems like more depth of field as well
@@atta1798 it's hard to put into words but I feel sounds have more weight to them. Like they picked up some extra going through the circuitry. And there is also the separation of things. Like I said it's hard to pit into words.
As a producer making loads of modern pop and dance records, I’ve found myself seeking that glue. Not the compression glue, But the tonal glue. Having all samples coming from different sources , kick, snare perc etc , It makes sense to run it through a piece of gear that adds a bit of harmonics to all pieces, or just get some box tone. Also, Summing would be the same thing. There’s an absolute separation between all sounds in an programmed track, summing all though one piece of gear, like the vancouver burl, seems to be a way without compression or eq to subtly marry the mix
I still use analog (hybrid). I have a Midas Venice F32 mixer. I mix mostly in the box, but the mixer is my first level of EQ or perhaps sub mixing on my way into the computer. It also allows me not to need to repatch everything for tracking, since I have per-channel digital I/O. Very efficient work flow
We hear innumerous advices like that or similar. All, ALL comes back to a simple thinking: follow what you like to do! Just find early in life what you love to do and DO IT. Going to school to learn what you like is definitely valid but ultimately the empirical experience will define you as a professional. And to achieve that position in life you NEED to realize what you like to do early in life and do it. This is an advice for any line of work in this planet. I really wished that my parents could have taught me that when I was little...
People really need to try Harrison Mixbus. I sold a very expensive summing unit when I realized that Mixbus not only did the "thing" that analog mixers do that typical "high resolution" DAW summing can't do, but BETTER. I don't know how they did it in software but they did it. Plus, the newest versions of Mixbus are way more stable and easy for Pro Tools guys to move over.
I use several pieces of analog gear - for tracking acoustic guitar, I have 2 signal chains for my spaced pair of Warm Audio Mics .... on the WA251 (set over the shoulder) I use Lindell vintage 500 series preamp, Eq and compressor - then through a Neve 542 before heading into my Apollo X4... on the WA47 ( 12” from 12th fret) I have an SSL 500 series chain including preamp, eq and LMC+ compressor, though the Neve 542 and into the Apollo .... For my vocal I track through a UAD 6176 ... I also us an analog master bus signal chain - I usually come out of the DAW (Logic Pro X) to an SSL Fusion, Warm Audio Bus Compressor, the Maag Master Bus EQ then through a pair of Neve 542’s - I’ll use some of all of this gear depending on the source/song/artist...
Re: “digital sounding” colloquial characterization. The term I think best describes the sound is “sterile” or better yet “clinical” material having unmusical or minimal harmonic content.
I keep changing my mind on this topic. I generally agree with what you're saying, but if you listen to Kenna's New Sacred Cow (2003) album, THAT thing is 100% digital-sounding! There's nothing about it that could be characterized as "warm", but because of the material and intention of the artist, it works perfectly....so you can't say it's not "musical". It's beautifully musical and sterile at the same time. Which means that none of the words I just used make any sense 😂
Technically, "digital" means sampled and thus "pure" because there is nothing added and nothing audible taken away. Or in other words, what goes in, come out the same. What we like about "analog" is the stuff that happens when voltage ramps through circuits and creates non-linearities that take away or add something to the original signal. Summing is similar because voltage ramping from signals dynamically changing both in frequency range and gain, creates a "softer" and more forgiving result when the circuit overloads. When a DAW mixer overloads, it just sounds awful. Something about how signals combine in a circuit path reliant on voltage, is why we tend to prefer analog summing over conventional digital. I will add that I've been using Harrison MIxbus exclusively for mixdowns for years (producing in other DAWs) and sold my Neve summer a couple years back because I was actually preferring the Mixbus versions pretty much every time I'd do an A/B test.
Autodidactic Professor I avoid using “pure” in audio context because I have yet to encounter it. Being how “digital” is artificial by design, it requires analog equipment to capture and convert it to be experienced in the physical realm. There will be impurities which may sound good or not. I think the reason why “we” [sic] fetishize analog summing and mixing has more to do with the phasing and relation between tracks, especially if coupled by transformers on every channel. Each one is slightly different than the next from core to wire to windings, and if well designed (or not) they color the sound through harmonic distortion, frequency response and phase shift which many ears find flattering. If our ears become digital, and you can upload yourself into binary to create, mix and experience music digitally then I will call it pure. A pure dystopian nightmare.
I've been mixing through a Capi SumBus, then into their VP28 pre/line amps and it's brilliant. There are transformers on each channel and they just impart a tone on the mix that I have a really hard time getting ITB. Also tracks run out through it just have a tad more clarity and width, which in turn, makes me mix differently. Can You get the same sound ITB? Maybe. But GOOD analog gear can make it easier to get the sound you want, quicker. I just don't think that the saturation emulation, from transformers, tubes and opamps, Is quite there yet. My 2c
Love CAPI, bet the summing box is great. Running my mixes through VP-28 either does nothing or, if I push it harder, something I don't particularly like any better than the same kind of pushing ITB. For summing I use Airwindows Console6. Adds some depth vs plain digital. Totally free. Underrated.
@@darwindeeez I've found this to be the case with my VP28s as well. I use all capi stuff in my home studio. But I think using the VP28 would be great after the sumbus. The reason I say that is because the mixbus on the capi sumbus is just the Active combining amplifier. For it to be a proper API mixbus from that time period, it would need a pair of 325s to make up the 6 DB loss out of the ACA.
My Masterbuss always goes to 2 stereo preamps (Rupert Neve 5024) to heat up the signal and then they hit my stereo compressor (JDK R22) for glue and tightness. Killer results!
Great FAQ Friday. Thank you, Warren. I tend to use my analog gear on sub buses and on the mix bus and on prominent tracks, like bass, main vocals etc. In many cases, except of the mix bus treatment, it is more because I'm more creative with outboard gear than I am with plugins than obtaining a superior tone from analog gear. Another point is that I love the wrongness analog gear adds. For example non of my DBX 160's sound exactly the same. But even in this topic plugins are catching up. In this case I think for example of the Tolerance Modeling Technology (TMT) the girls and guys from Plugin Alliance uses for their channels. A while ago I considered if I should spend money on a DAW controller, something that does not affect the sound. I then decided to buy a Presonus Faderport 8 since I like the tactile work. And to my surprise it did in fact affect the sound in a positive way for it changed my workflow. That's why I guess It's not only about to use hardware or plugins, mix in the box or go hybrid. One important part is to have a workflow that feels natural and supports your creativity.
Warren, Love your series and have been watching for 2 years. Minor history first, I'm a multi- instrumentalist, in order drums, bass guitar (Tuba, Euphonium), guitar, keys and low brass. I studied to be a musician, but fate got in the way and I was out of a home at 17 living in my car and playing in everything I could find from brass quartet at christmas time to drums for local theater companies and our very successful dance wedding band. I slept at the back of a dental lab which I was just starting to study "How to make Teeth", for a whole $3.10 an hour. had a very similar path as yours in a way. music was and is my love, so here I am at 58 going back to school, a community collage with a couple SSL's and way too much outboard gear to talk about, a Mastering room and all the goodies. For me it was that bug that I'm making money in the field but have no diploma, although I've run my own side job studio for 30 plus years. It was worth it in that I felt more alive in the industry, I became Protools 2 certified, I met contacts in many fields who did other things then I could supply in my studio, such as rapping, metal guitar and much more. I have a degree no matter how small it is ( Laughable really, you think they could spare the paper, at $ 1,200.00 a year, ). Anyway if you can, then do it, You definitely could teach the class and many nights I felt WHY did I do this. But in the end it was cool, I switched from MOTU to PT and got a ton of gear and plugs at student pricing. Even got PT for half off!!! So My set up, no surprise,... All UAD and A mess of plugs from them and waves and Fab Filter and ect,.... Outboard gear is very simple stuff, a Audient 880, Presonus Eureka for a dedicated Rode NTK, Aphex 207D running Spdif for my Overheads and the rest is all UAD running Neve 1176's on the way in. No Neve In Site on the way in but all Neve on the inside. I have a DBX 160 for bass, and thats about it. Thank you for your vids and all you do to make me a better mixer and musician, it is very appreciated, Your friend Greg
I use a hybrid set up. I of course edit ITB and use a lot of ITB fx but I like to mix it so it sounds pretty good ITB but then I send busses out to an analog mixer and process with some OTB fx as well. Then send it back to the box.
I still occasionally run stems to quarter inch two track to obtain a "different" sound on instruments and vocals. 15IPS with CCIR EQ curve works best for me at +4 using 456 tape. I do also have half inch two track as well, but I find that the best compression comes from quarter inch tape. In the 1980's when I recorded at Powerstation in New York, the engineers would mostly print mixes to quarter inch tape, even though they had half inch at their disposal. All of those great albums that came out of that studio from Bruce, Bryan Adams, Duran Duran, BonJovi were all mixed to quarted inch tape. They preferred 3M 250 tape as it provided them with a feel that the standard 456 tape could not be able to reproduce. Currently, I own several pieces of Manley gear as well as a racked pair of Neve 33022a preamps with the BBC T1801 transformers. They sound incredible! Of course, I own an LA2A, DBX 165,two Distressors and two Liquid Channels. I find myself often running the stereo mix through two API 550b's in totally flat setting just to get something "extra". Other times, with the right plugins, the mixes sound great, especially using the UA Studer tape machine or the Ampex ATR 2 track plugin. I track exclusively with a Manley VoxBox, or the two racked Neve's. Plugins are getting better by the minute, and I can foresee the day when I will not need to run anything through tape. I also have a trick that was used at Powerstation with Bias on a tape machine to make tracks sound toasty. My 2 Inch 16 track machine has not seen much action in a few years. That may go on the auction block soon. I loved your video because you explain it using your own experience, yet, it's OK for others to have their own. Great work!
I've gone hybrid too. Still trying out my analog gear. I use the Neve 173 OPX it also is an 8 channel summing mixer or 4 stereo I love its sound I'm working on getting my studio together I've changed to the presonus 48x48 wich has 32 analog ins n outs but I'm waiting for the rest of my cables and another patch bay to complete my I/O
I've recently got my home studio up and running after a long sebatical new Daw etc. And currently obsessed with becoming a good mix engineer and watched hundreds of your videos, which have been a lifeline through lock down and hugley helpful. Im developing a hyrid system that works for me as I am in love with the idea, althouh im not there yet and would settle for a good mix in the box to start! I have an Allen and Heath Zed r 16 which is a very versatile desk for home use. As well as tracking in I buss back out and can send to a modest rack with a Tl audio c1, a cheap dbx for dirt, and my guitar pedals. and Ive just managed to get my hands on a 120a on your recomedation. I love it. Im on the cusp of a decent mix although it has been hard won. Gain staging and digital sound floor being the biggest learning curve as I had no head room left on my master bus when recording back in. Thanks Warren you are a huge insperation, keep up the good work
Great point on recording with all Neve mic pres' on each track. If you do that, you already have the analog (analogue) goodness on the tracks. Adding more at the end may put too much of that character.
I’ve been using THE basic StudioLive XMax pres to record practices live and it was defiantly sterile. So I took the plunge and picked up an 8 ch NEVE 1073 OPX. Running it line in, What a difference. It reduces a lot of work getting That sound.
I mix through an Allen & Heath Zed R16, also use a couple Warm Audio WA 2A, a Drawmer 1973 and a Neve 5043. The learning curve that was the steepest for the three compressors was the Neve. I cannot make the WA 2As sound bad, I can work well with the Drawmer, but I am careful with the Neve- I dunno why, but I have to be more gentle with it. It's all fun! BTW, I love the EQ on the Zed!
just bought a 24/4/2 Soundcraft Delta DLX, got it cheap as chips.. it's my first console and I plan to get it modified, I have no minimal experience and no education in the music industry.. I'm learning it as I go, I'm 38 and I can't wait to get stuck in.. your channel has been a real help and I plan to sign up as a member. Thank you for all you do!
Cheers my fellow audio adventurer! I thought about getting Delta DLX modules as well, because my engineer school had Soundcraft Ghost which I simply fell in love with. I liked mixing DAW productions with outboard gear, so everything went through the Ghost. It just sounded sculpted and warmer. It might've been the pres, could've been the EQs, I'm not sure. Ended up collecting bunch of low-end compressors and EQs instead and now I have 10 channels of comp/EQ, couple soviet BBDs, tape delays and spring reverbs. Everything goes thru tubes at some point of the chain. It's dumb and impractical, but I just love it.
@@sytiravajous amazing, I’ve picked up a few bits over the years, still constantly adding. Picked up some reverbs and multi effect stuff. Couple comps. Would love some tube gear
I write my songs in different DAWs but the last thing i make is the whole signal came out from computer in 2x4 channel and summing this and go a stereo signal into the Drawmer 1976 saturator, Drawmer 1974 EQ and lastly the Art VLA II compressor. This signal go back in the computer. This chain is to me is very simple and efficient.
i've experienced this not too long ago. I own a soundcraft, from te late '80s, before the company was sold to Harman. The desk is nothing fancy but it is sturdy and it certainly has a sound to it, a lot better quality than the desks they make nowadays. However, i can't use it now because i'm saving up for an interface that has 32 in-/outputs, so now it's just a glorified laptop stand. Anyway, i was mixing a little score for a film (in the box) and i thought: "why don't go trough the desk?" So i patched it up, pressed play, and WOW!! What a sound, it's like you mentioned, it now has weight, depth and every other buzz word you'll find. it didn't necessarily sound that different, but it felt different, the music became more alive somehow! I always had this feeling with the real deal, the high end stuff. But i never imagined that the mid tier analog equipement could give me the same. The high end does sound better. But if you're looking for that weight, you don't have to spend that much money. but yeah, maybe i'm just lucky with this particular desk. :p
Mathijs van der Wallen I hear ya man it’s like it has something you can’t put your finger on but you can feel it. I never knew what people meant when they said that a mix sounded taller until I got my ssl a few years ago. When I listen to mixes I did in the box or on one of my several suuming amps they honestly sound like they’ve been flattened it’s weird man lol
I use Slate Digital Virtual Tube Collection to color the sound of my mix buss. I also use it on a reverb send to add warmth to reverb. There's no need to turn up the saturation knob, just a slight touch of the effect can do the job.
As someone who self taught themselves for 10 years in pro audio.. I absolutely recommend an audio engineer school. You'll be surrounded by people who's lives are just as focused on music as yours. If it's a conservatory that also has musicians alongside engineers: you'll have access to singers, drummers, guitarist, pianists and etc.. that you can co-produce with. Everyone there has free time and interest in music. School environment simply has the best resources for that. Not to mention all the instruments and studio gear you'd have access to in engineer side also. Even IF the level of education is crap, you'll still be focusing on music and practicing at a level that's not comparable to on-and-off hobbyist schedule. And let's be real, the papers you get out of the school might be utterly pointless and not land you any jobs. But I STILL think it's absolutely worth it. You don't NEED audio engineer school. Sure, you can practice by yourself, find your own network, work hard to get money for your own studio gear and browse youtube for tips. For sure, but it's so much harder path, especially nowadays. EDIT: I should note I live in Finland and the education here is free. I realize my recommendation might not mean as much elsewhere.
I've been using the SSL X Rack for 16 channel(8 Stereo) with my Pro Tools HD. I send all the drums into a stereo bus, all guitars on another Keyboards, Bass and then vocals into 2 XR623 and I XR623 line inputs. I have 8 stereo buses in Pro Tools that goes straight into an Apogee 16 channel DA the into the SSL rack. Each bus has inserts so I can use 2 stereo Chandler Limited TC2 or other outboard gear. I send a stereo out from the SSL into a stereo bus for printing a mix.I can also inset my API 2500 stereo bus compressor into the stereo stereo SSL mix out. I've been using it for many years.
After years in Pro Tools and Cubase I am having a blast using UA Luna. I think their plugins sounds natural, real and the sonics reminds me of the hardware even though I hate to say it as it goes against my childhood dream of having a old school analogue studio. I use LUNA as I would use any of their hardware products. I rig every recording channel just as If I had the luxury of having all the tools in my arsenal. It makes everything from my guitars, to my vocals, my bass etc. sound like a million. This is said by a guy who spend thousand of ours in world-class studios with my own recording heroes.
I like the slate console stuff. I use the preamp a console on the way in, and use his mix buss summing on the rear buss. It does really take care of that digital fizz..
Very interesting topics today. I didn't go to music school but I play on the same stages as the kids who did. School is not important, education and application of knowledge and experience is. You can't find passion in books, its in your heart. If you love it, you will be as good as the person who went to school, if not better.
yeah I appreciate your sentence "take a good preamp and use it everywhere" because if you start from a more analog recording you have good material later for a complete mix in ITB....different if you start with only VST instruments and try to give analog style all in a DAW...it will be more difficult come on in this case. (sorry for my bad english)...it always depends on how the recording quality is
Yes...summing out. Motu avb 16 analog out. 10 of the channels are going into 5 zahl1 stereo eqs (for additional eq options of 5 of my mixbuses out of harrison mixbus.). The remainder along with the outputs of the 5 stereo zahls go into neve 5060 summing mixer. The neve summs it all with an insert on the main mix out using...serpent bus compressor and a tikkilizer 500 series stereo eq into my otari reel to reel 1/4 inch tape machine....
I am using loads of analog gear, mostly 500 series, EQs and compressors before hitting the inputs of an aggregate conglomeration of interfaces going into my DAW. I also go through a few analog boards that have direct outputs that I will then send to an interface but then send the two-bus of that console to my monitor mix for latency free monitoring
Hell yes ! I use analog for tracking and re- amping. For vox, I use a Roswell Pro Audio Mini k67x into a dbx 560A into a Fredenstein VAS FET Compressor.
This is a great chapter, thank you Warren. I have a pair of Golden Age Pre 573 I use on the final bus (sub-master) which is fed from different aux busses (drums, GTRs, Bass, Keyboards, and Vocals), these are the only analog pieces of equipment I used on my mixes, everything else are plugins, including nice coloring ones like Kush's transformer, SSL's X-Saturator, Slate's tape and so on. I liked the "beef" I got from passing the audio through the GAP transformers, actually, I was thinking in getting the Premiere version that has Carnhill transformers. Cheers!~
I use a Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK. It is an analog board with converters both directions for every channel. I did not purchase it for the ability to individually send, but now that I know about it, I’ve been playing around. The signal is sent on each track before the rest of the channel (pre eq, etc), but I’ve been rerouting a second track for some of my mics or summing a couple mics and printing some extra tracks as I go. A/B’ing them later I have be surprised to find I really like the influence of the analog board. I tend to like a blend of the two, but as my skills improve, I expect I might utilize the natural compression a lot more. I will also be experimenting with analog summing my mix busses and then doing the final sum in the box. Thanks for a very informative video (as always). I mentioned this on another one of your videos, but RUclips likes verbosity.
My final summing stage (Neve 5059) and my mix bus processing is all analog. I've done a bunch of comparison testing against equivalent UAD plugins, and honestly, it's not so much WHAT it does for me, as how it does it and how it lets me work. My summing mixer allows me to mix stems in the box with reasonable headroom, but push them with additional class A gain to hit my mix bus harder in the analog domain. Analog compression still has a bit of extra "snap" to me, and I still find a bit of extra "dimensionality" to my analog outboard EQ and saturation. I can get those sounds in the box - I have done so, and I know it's possible - but I get them more quickly/easily in the analog domain, and I find the gear inspiring. My goal in my small studio is always to do what gets me to the result I want as quickly as possible. I do half my tracking through UAD Unison preamp models, and half through some REALLY nice 500 series pres (API, BAE, Chandler, etc.). They're all great, and I use what gets me to what I want most easily and quickly. I actually track almost all of my drums through the UAD preamps because it's a lot of channels to recall, their Neve preamp models sound perfectly great, and I know I'm going to be compressing the bus eventually anyway. Electric guitars? 99% of the time it's my pair of Chandler TG2s, and occasionally my API 512s. Bass goes through a variety of things - half the time I'm actually multing the signal on my patchbay so I pull a DI signal off my BAE 1073 and then also record the UAD Ampeg SVT. I'm hybrid all the way from tracking to mixdown, and 2020 has proven to be a WONDERFUL time to be in a small studio, because we really do have the option of having (practically speaking) the best of both worlds now. All that said, if you're on UAD Apollos, the Neve Summing extension for Luna is absolutely incredible sounding. It's the closest I've felt to my hybrid analog-summing workflow in the box, and I highly recommend folks check it out.
@@atta1798 I have yet to get that same sound ITB using no analog equipment. What I’m saying is that the UAD analog summing models in Luna come closer to that sound than anything else I’ve tried.
I don't regret not going to school beyond high school but I do see the potential value in contacts made, experience(s) gained and just simply "getting out of Dodge". If you live somewhere where there aren't opportunities to take advantage of for the field you're interested in, school might be a way to break away and gain potential opportunities and life-relevant experiences. One last thought: being surrounded by people with shared interests is HUGE, regardless of the interest. Warren is, of course, right on all accounts, just adding a few other considerations. Once you're settled into your life, the opportunities can become quite limited and sometimes don't come your way again.
I used various mic pres and channel strips that have a particular flavor. Undertone Audio MPEQ-1's that can be both clean and have a thicker tone when using the transformers. I also LOVE my old Neve 1272's especially for lead vocals. I have a couple of other units in pairs in case I want to record stereo live V72's and older Grace audio which are open, large and clean. I get a lot of great sound on the front end of a capture. For mixing, I have a small, custom API mixer with vintage 2503's and API Opamps and a master buss insert for adding compressors and eq. It makes difference in the the quality of the print for sure. I wish I had space for a large console. I love the Rupert Neve 5059, you get 16 channels going to 2 stereo busses and each individual track can be panned and has a insert for other outboard gear.
I love your phrase on the reason you wouldn't want to add a L and R preamp it to the stereo bus, 'like slamming it with a sledge hammer and hoping for the best' lol lol - I hear you warren! :) me too! Recently Ive been research Clipping! That is something that all the younger engineers are doing (after waves L2/L3 era) to slam individual tracks, like shakers hats brass etc, that would be a cool topic too!
This year I went back to my old process of creating summed stems and then I mix the stems in the box. To my ears I notice a difference in quality and by quality I mean it sounds analog, smooth, warm and finished (all the cliches, haha). I should mention I do own plenty of quality plugins. Sometimes I have plugins on running into the outboard chain. All the best....
After a few years of summing and mixing in the box; summing isn't everything. It isn't gonna save your mix. And as Warren said, there were times where the box mix was better than the summed mix. Pros of summing are that you get a rounder, more open and tighter sound. Your mix articulates better, especially on smaller systems. Cons: its time consuming and recalls means you have to sum again. Sometimes the box is better, because the tone and levels you set are the tone and levels you set hahaha summing can offset that slightly. But I love summing. It adds a character the box just can't add. If time allows, I will always sum a project. If not, the box mixes are also good.
When you say, "I'd probably run everything through it individually...", do you have a video that addresses that concept? (I searched your channel and didn't find one). I had an experience on my first record where I did a decent job of recording and mixing everything, but then we signed with an indie label and they wanted to have it remixed.The mix engineer took each track and ran them through a Neve pre, then once everything was run through the Neve, mixed the album again. The results were fantastic. But, I don't really recall specifically how it was done. I think a lot of your followers might find themselves in a position where they record a song, and then sometime after that, upgrade their studios and maybe wish they could do something similar, run all their previously recorded tracks through a newly acquired high-end preamp before mixing. I get the GENERAL idea, but I think it'd be great to see a video on how to do that step by step. Anyway, love your channel. Thanks for what you do.
Well...I tried summing through my desk , through a stereotube compresser and through a cheap 8 channel line mixer and yes : it allways has an impact that I like (wider soundstage, "warmer (not a loss of HF*) !", " recognisable sound ", the sense of very light but pleasing compression going on. This is what I sense and hear (even blindfolded). Maybe for someone else the experience is completely different . That said , another difference for me is the fact that once you convert your mix (ITB) down to 16 bit 44.1K some quality "gets lost ". If you mix through a mixing desk and record the mix in good 16 bit quality , you don't experience that at all. That alone is allready enough reason for me to mix (or run the mix) through analogue equipment . I picked a 32 bit 48 K ITB project , rendered the mix in 16 bit , 44.1 K, and compared it to the same mix directly recorded in 16 bit on my other DAW PC (same RME converts on both DAW PC's) . I then created a new project in 16 bit, 44.1 K ,imported both 16 bit mixes and ran some analysers on them: things get lost when you convert your music to 16 bit ITB. So ...I guess there's more going on than just summing ...
Mixing entirely in the box vs a console for me is about how the process and work flow goes. I find that working in totally the box wears me out physically a lot faster than working through a console or in a hybrid fashion. Constantly scrolling through plugin menus, preferences, and settings gets tiring and boring really fast for me where getting up and down, plugging in patch bay’s, working knobs and faders, etc seems to keep it a lot more interesting to me for a much longer time and is much less tiring. I find that in the box, after three or four hours I’m mentally exhausted but in a analog studio I’m just getting warmed up and lose all track of time. My current set up uses a Apogee Symphony 16 channel I/O and a API the Box Console with 16 returns. The outs of the 16 tracks go into the API as individual tracks or stereo stems and then the output of the console goes into a Apollo interface and back into the computer. I just recently discovered how to use two DAW’s and two interfaces on the same computer acting like a multi track and a mixdown deck. Before I either used a second computer or a reel to reel tape deck to mix down to. This gives me the best of both worlds and my work flow still relates to the pure analog days when I started out recording. I know that most modern engineers would look at my set up and work flow and think it is crazy! Through this console I can use any outboard gear or any plugins really easily, all on inserts. I mostly use API preamps but also have and use, RCA, Telefunken, and UALA610MK2 preamps. I use a Manley ELOP, UREI1176, 2500Comp, 5500EQ, eventide eclipse, and the UAOX. I have other vintage outboard stuff but don’t use it too much anymore. In general, I prefer devices where one knob or one button has one function. However, After getting the amazing vintage style Apollo plugins I started to feel as though I don’t need some of the hardware I was seriously considering buying, such as the Distressor and Fatso Empirical Labs compressors, or an Avalon. You can’t beat the sound of the API console which does impart a signature sound into your mixes, but that is all subjective. The master section and sound through the headphones is in another world from any of the pro-Sumer interfaces with built in monitor sections that I’ve heard. The headphone monitor feed sounds a lot better through the API than it does through the Apollo X4. Not to sound like an API salesman, but their customer service is also amazing.
I do use a summing mixer (Dangerous music D-box) sometimes, but frankly, the loss connected to a double conversion needed, in most the cases, is not worth the effort. I found my way to make the bus master "analog" enough to make me and my clients happy. But I agree with the Class A mic preamps as front end. I invested a lot of money in different Neve preamps and some others, too, and I use it to impart character to my recordings.
SHADOW HILLS EQUINOX----- My 2020 summing setup involves the Shadow Hills Equinox. That is my summing box of choice, mixed to to external 2 track . Massive amounts of hardware (CL1B, RS124's, LA3A, 2A's, Sta-Level, 1176's, Pultec etc...). I came out of the generation that was dare I say ..."Pre-digital recording". Otari MTR90, Studer, Ampex. The 1st boar that I ever touched was a Harrison back in 1984. I need to feel it and touch it. If I can calibrate it and can touch a capstan then I'm happy. There is a kinesthetic enjoyment to working with what you can touch and sculpting sound from a visceral perspective that does not involve the clicking of a mouse. The Shadow Hills Equinox is a beast of a machine. I sum 16 out from the DAW. No more. my 128 point patchbay sums into the Equinox. All 32 channels are used on the Equinox. 3 different trannie selections. Iron , Nickel, and Steel which is more mid forward, More American Motownish). In the end, what makes you happy? For myself, I have to touch, feel the texture of it all and feel a connection between my ears, galvanic skin response, my hands, my eyes, my abdomen and last but certainly not least... my heart. May we all be true to our paths and respectful of those who choose a different one. Enjoy!
This is nice lecture!! I have been mixed only plugins. But to improve my work of sound quality I started to using preamp for vocal recording. and now also I often use for drum track summing. result was very nice. I could realize that more gule from my mixing. finally I'm korean. when I was puberty. korea had not good institutions for learnig to music recording technology. so I decided to go japan for schooling. After graduated from school. I got a job in japan as a field recording engineer. It was a kind different job from the music industry. but It was a really nice experience to me. I had learned a lot of knowledge from work. After I come back to korea. I've been worked as a sound system designer. Of course this job is related to sound industry but Sound system designer is required another ability from field recording engineer. Somtimes I think if I didn't have a diploma. Maybe I would not have got this job in korea. Now I'm making music and relese my works. but as well as I still working for making living. As you put it that these days music industry is confront with hard sircumstance. so get a job in music industry is a very hard. Schooling in institution is not must. but I think. diploma is just like a insurance that helps to choose a job more widely. Thank you for uploading this video.
I use the original Dangerous 2 Bus for summing and I swear by it definitely sonically as well as process-wise. It's not a matter of just taking a mix and spreading it out, though I do think that that helps - it's more of mixing into it. Also seeing the analog outs from PT helps me to keep my mixes "honest" meaning I generally wind up having to lower bus levels to not overload. Also, the beautiful interface appeals to me ,and feels like having a console in a box. I do get better results, without a doubt.
Dinosatriani, it has been 9 months since this comment. Are you still using your X-desk? Are you using it to record and mix? What DAW are you using it with? I am very curious because I am looking at the X-desk as a possibility. What are the pros and cons you have run into?
I have an inexpensive 8 channel analog pre and record as much as I can through it, and then to converters and I love the little tiny bit of wrongness(warmth) it gives me 🤟.
Thank you for this ever popular question. I have a nice summing box (Dangerous Music) but I rarerly use it now since I prefer to stay completely ITB, mainly for recall reasons. But I don't feel that is a sacrifice. I found my way of taming the transient and to round off the highs in a nice way. But I really prefer not to have tha double or quadruple conversion that in my opinion is a very expensive price to pay for a limited advantege, Especially now that there are so many interesting plugins that recreate every nuance of the supposedly "magic" analog path, that in the end is only a fair dose of saturation, harmonic distortion and Intermodulation distortion. I have now so many ways to dirty up the sound that I feel limited when I use my analog summing. It took a while to find my way, but now I am really happy. And my clients too, since I don't have to charge them for expensive recall time. I know that there will be people that don't agree, but in the end, are you able to separate the ITB mixed songs from the Analog Summed ones?
A potential question: When mixing a drumkit, do you prefer using one room or verb channel for the kit, or do you like to break things up and be selective? Eg, no" verb on kicks but only on snare and toms? Are those two different verbs? I imagine this depends on the mix quite a bit. As a metal guy I like my kicks with no room but add some to snares and toms, maybe ambient mics on cymbals if they add accent or power. That said, if the song is faster and complex I avoid too much ambient stuff because it gets messy quite quickly. Thoughts? thanks and keep up the great content!
For me, and it absolutely depends on the project, the music, what is its sound and texture, what does it need? I generally DO put verb, or a "room," on the toms, usually individually, but occasionally, on an extremely well tuned kit, one on the racks, but the floor toms I always treat individually. Kicks rarely get much. Snare is always determined by the sound/feel of the snare drum itself, how it's coming through each mic, top and bottom, how the drummer sounds when playing through the song,, and especially based on the song. A doomcore band I occasionally will work with, those toms always require a lot of big room verb added to them, because the kid's kit is pretty dead sounding, even when I bring in a different drummer to tune them, who is a phenomenal talent when it comes to tuning a kit. It is a four-piece band that tends to leave some space in their arrangements, and the sound of the band just works with a big open drum sound, not only will the toms get a lot of big roomy verb added, the snare will get a fairly significant amount of verb added on the top and on the bottom mics. The kicks, because it is a fairly dead sounding kit, and because the band sounds more powerful with a large crushing kick drum, plus they don't do a lot of 260 BPM thrash beats, I will put a reverb pedal on to those tracks. Then a compressor and a limiter to cut that reverb off without making it sound artificial. Working on metal, I tend to have reverb on each tom individually, almost never on the kicks, and again it's case-by-case on the snare. from song to song that can change, and even within a song for certain parts there might be a little additional reverb and other parts just cutting it off and killing that reverb so it doesn't sell mushy or muddy or over cluttered. Very very rarely will I add anything to the kicks, occasionally a small small room added to a slow part of a song, just for Indians and feel. A while back I was working on some very industrial influenced music, and, even though we did not want anywhere near as mechanical, and metallic, sounding of drums as a lot of industrial music tends to use, we wanted to keep a more organic sound to the drums, so we did not add any reverb to the kick or the snare, and only a small amount to each individual tom track, with comp on each track as well.
I generally use a room sound for the whole kit, to get it to sound like a single instrument. Then I’ll add additional delays or verbs to specific tracks as needed.
I do love the fact that the box is constantly improving more and more all the time. There was a time where I would have chosen cheap analog over digital and now I would only choose analog if it was high end and free to use. I would love to have some outboard units if I had some converters to match them to add the true flavor, but the price for a small bit of that is the same cost as a very very very large digital setup. Plus now, RUclips has given us more mouths to listen to than ever. I use to be only SoundOnSound, amazing guys they are, but once you're a bit of a pro yourself you really just seeking those ideas you haven't thought of yourself. And then really that isn't so necessary, it's more just to keep you occupied with tinkering with some interesting ideas so your art stays living through your actions. I unluckily keep being unlucky so I spend most of my time in the world of ideas, but that also means I'm tooling myself up more with education while having space from actually creating. Although, there is a point and I had hit that point a long time ago where ideas are great but if you're not doing your not getting in the flow ad that part is the most important thing. Plus now, the advice is far less criticized in the way it is taught, I think we have all relaxed into thinking being profession is about allowing creativity and mistakes as part of a professional process, if simply so new things can be found. I really like this bit of information about transformers being on every channel. There is a question I have, apart from the character you get from analog have you ever found the way analog brings the audio together to be far more pleasing than digital? I always have. Take away the character and there is still something different in the sound. It's a little like the difference in seeing a sunrise and taking a photo of a sunrise. It's how it puts it all together. Have you ever noticed this? Because this is the thing that draws me to want to get some sort of summing. I'm now thinking of how I can ensure there are transformers in the inputs the master outputs. I'm thinking I can get two birds high with one joint by buying a 4 or 8 channel transformer-based preamp with two output options for each channel and adding a summing unit with transformers on the master output so I then have the preamps to use as preamps and then it can double at the first signal path for the summing. Tell me what you think or maybe I'll see a video about the way analog mixes sounds together. I find it more open. Like being in a really magical woods and noticing only that, wherewith digital you're noticing all your clothes you're wearing also. Which can be nice but it's completely pure. Or am I now get too physiological? ahahaha I do that a lot!
as some who is unpractised at high-end analog, I've only had a taste I do not know really well and I am also wondering if once it is all converted at the end to digital, is that tiny tiny little thing I'm talking about going to be lost anyway?
when I say "tiny" it isn't as noticeable as the character that is added in transformers... but a good example is that some summing cables do this thing I'm talking about better than a box
So maybe I need the 8 channel preamp and then a compressor or eq or a combo unit at the end of that summing cable... or just the go from the preamp back in the box through the summing cable.
For me, once we start recording using DAW, the analog signals converted to digital. That is why they use 16/44.4 up to 32/96 or more depends on how powerful your device can handle to process. Whatever your gear, expensive or free one, those signals already divided into rounded numbers. The only difference is the time to process those signals. Hardware definitely faster than CPU and doesn't have to calculate the incoming signal before sending it out unless you use digital hardware. The result is the same. Data being process already divided into bit 1/0. So summing devices also get signals from the exact number of bit. Math is never lying but calculation might go wrong. In the end, everything is about the taste of hearing. That makes music a piece of art.
Leave your FAQ Friday questions below!
Do I really need acoustic treatment in my room while recording high gain guitars with dynamic mics (right at the speaker grill)?
I'm a bedroom musician and I usually shy away from recording actual amps because I don't know what I'm doing & also there's the convenience of amp sims. However, the times that I have tried micing up an amp (Shure SM58, solid state Marshall combo), I didn't really hear the "room" and I quite liked it. My room isn't big and is packed with a lot of stuff.
The tracks that I've downloaded from PLAP so far have all been 48k. I've always worked in 48k for Video and 44.1K for audio releases to avoid problems with conversion aliasing. Why track them in 48K? Is it because you plan to release on RUclips? Are the codecs so improved that aliasing is no longer an issue when downconverting for CD? Thanks.
Jay I managed to get the gold bundle for £89 during Black Friday so maybe wait for that?
Should one always de-noise your audio recordings to make it sound professional ? It takes some effort, is it worth it or that big a difference?
How can you make small home studio recordings, sound like something recorded live in a big room/arena? (Think modern worship megachurch type sound)
I use the SSL SiX at every stage. I record every element through it including running the Helix into the line inputs. Then during mix, I sum 8 channels through it using the bus compressor and then back in the box for final processing. Then in mastering, I take it back out through 2 of the channels for mastering. Just the little bit of saturation and natural coloration that it imparts along the way adds up. Very versatile unit.
Sounds like a lot of work though.
Daniel Dalley not really I have an interface with 8 analog line out and in. And it's all routed through a patchy bay.
"just a little bit of saturation and natural coloration"? Whats natural about 4 - 6 stages of harmonic distortion?
@@dorkruckus You don't have to like it but transformers impart harmonic distortions. You can completely oversaturate and completely destroy the sound or you can just gently drive the channels to impart very small distortions. The SSL SiX is actually very clean and flat unless you drive it a bit and then it starts to give a little saturation especially in the high mids. To me, it's a very pleasant sound and keeps me from loading up on various analog modeled plugins. After all, that's what the plugins do, they model the harmonic distortions. What is natural about the console is that you get all the character for free and then you also get the crossplay when it sums through the bus compressor and master bus. Otherwise, you're using some console simulation to do this like Slate VCC or Waves NLS. Again, you don't have to like it but I find that it simplifies mixes and helps
me use fewer plugins.
@@JasonBuffin I love my six as well.
I mix in the box, nearly all my sources head through my 1073 dual mic pre. Then once I have a mix ready, usually mix 10 :-), I master through a chain of analogue gear including my SSL Fusion, TLA audio valve compressor and Tegeler Creme too. The difference is incredible and how records need to sound, for me anyway. Truly fab to read what others and what you indeed do Warren. Thanks as ever! Marty
that is probably what most do that have the equipment.n experiment with + line etc......but then in your case you have the same sound in your mixes and Mastering work,,,, as you know project/production might need something different....etc
I run everything through my UA 2-610 and it’s the sauce man. It makes every mix I’ve ever done sound absolutely incredible.
Warren you were talking about strangest gig. I had a gig (many years ago) and when we got to the club the owner decided not to let the band play. This is after we had loaded the band and instruments in two taxis to get to the gig. So we set up and played in the ally behind the club and emptied out the club!
That's one of the. craziest gig stories I've ever heard!
25 years ago or so, my 1st wife & I were chilling out after the last kids rang the bell on Halloween. Completely out of the blue, I got a call from an Israeli keyboard player/singer/band leader for a gig later that night in Alphabet City in Manhattan [way before it was gentrified]. I’d worked with this guy a few times, the gig paid $200 cash so I said OK. Benji said “wear black” and I was to find out why later - we played for a witches coven of about 2 dozen people celebrating the solstice! They were a bit strange but very nice. It was Benji, me on guitar and a totally out-of-place trumpet player who gave up & left after about an hour. Benji was more of a singer than keyboard player; had one of those magic one-finger Korgs; you pressed the key of the chord root & it made an instant arrangement. The problem was he could play a 4-hour Israeli wedding but not much else. I somehow dragged him through about 3 hours of no-vocal improv [a hell of a lot of it in D minor]. They loved it - and my car was still there when the gig was over.
Pete Sawchuk Pete that was good. Made me laugh at the end.
Funny that I am watching this video. Last week I worked on a production for an old school blues single. The engineer did a good job, by the book but the band was still unhappy with the result.They were at mastering level completely out of the allotted time. The band leader was complaining to me about the overall sound. Based on the feedback that I received from the band I send an email to engineer and ask him to try to run the finished mastered song thought a couple of Neve type of preamp with the gain pushed quite a bit. The band was so happy about the result, they couldn't believe their ears.
That’s wonderful to hear! Thanks ever so much for sharing
I’ve experienced this....and this is why analog rules.
@@thefastaction8717no it doesn’t and neither does digital, they’re both good in their own respective way
I'd love to see more episodes about songwriting, pre-production and arranging like you did a bit a few weeks ago. Because all mixing stuff is useless when the song isn't good... more attention on the initial creative process would be so great to watch. And if you start interviewing producers again, an extensive interview / studio tour with Howard Benson on his producing techniques (especially how he doubles the recorded parts with synths / pads at home) would be very interesting.
People spend years and years and years learning about actual musicianship. You can't expect to watch a few videos and suddenly be at the level of someone who's spent thousands of hours practicing and playing in ensembles from childhood onwards.
It would help get there. @@DaveyMulholland
I have 1" 8 Track, 1/2" 4 Track, and 1/4" half track recorders fully up to date and tuned up. Love the sound.
Thanks ever so much for sharing!! I appreciate it Joe!
Awesome! My studio in 1985! I wish I still had it too.
I recently started using a Tascam Model 16 to run my busses out through for some analogue summing. With no setting changes, literally just running all of my busses through the desk and back into the box. Everything had more depth, width and separation. I have been using many different plugins with saturation, crosstalk etc. to try and emulate this and thought I had it until I did this. It definitely makes a difference, it's not much but definitely noticeable.
Thanks ever so much for sharing
I find the same thing with my Soundcraft Signature MTK. I’m not sure about my final sum, but I really like having a summed bus to mix back in parallel.
The one thing about summing it is designed to bring audio in at -10 -20 db so you can bring the volume up into the daw to get that tiny bit of saturation almost clipping like a console would do. Natural compression. That sweet stuff. It is very noticeable to me. I even at times will sum a individual lead vocal track several passes to knock out annoying digital frequencies and over all the the final mix will be summed into 4 or 5 busses. You get that tiny bit of rich harmonics and better mono placement on kick, bass lead vocals. Anything up the middle sounds better in true analog for sure. I feel it is necessary when it comes to stacking tracks and so on. Everything seems to glue together with more headroom, less eq and compression. Thats what I love about summing,. The fact at when I mix a song I am using less plugins and you're getting that console sound. I use to be big on AD/DA conversion but once I got the summing mixer it all changed. I can even monitor the mix through mine the way it was built custom for my Apollo 8xp. Magic in a box is what I call it. I also record with analog outboard gear. Put it this way. Anything I can do to get rid of that digital sound. When I bought this Apollo I wanted to check out the unison stuff. Its great but fr me not for recording in. I was still getting all that digital harshness especially on vocals. I found myself grabbing plugin after plugin until I had like 8 plugins on a vocal track. Now I might have 1 or 2.
Warren,I used to only listen to advice from Al Schmitt, and Bruce Swedien. I have added you to the list.
Warren you are a professor of music production to thousands of students. In my eyes and I'm sure everyone else who learns from you believes that you have much more than an audio degree, no paper could even begin to describe the skill you have! Don't ever let the lack of a price of paper make you feel as if you are less than you can be! You are and always will be the best YOU we could ever have the privilege to know! Thank you for everything you have done for us for all these years!!!
Just experiment n gain experience properly
after spending years in the box, I’m going back to a hybrid system because there are analog qualities that I miss. I don’t know if they are heard as much as they are felt but I do know that I enjoy analog much better (for whatever reason).
analog changed my mixes forever
Thanks ever so much for sharing your process!
Was browsing through some thread from another social media about summing and I remember seeing one of your videos about the Neve and here I am, watching your videos again. :) Really enjoy your channel, I was just trying out mixing 2 years ago and I can't imagine finishing 7 songs that our band recorded during the pandemic. A lot of sleepless nights watching your videos on vocals, bass and drums mixing along with the videos from Marc Nelson. A lot of thanks to you.
And what's motivating is what you said here. I didn't go to school for mixing too but like you, I just like plugging and testing things and I just dove right in with our band's project and luckily it turned out ok. Thanks again and looking forward to more of your videos.
Loved the new lighting in the video, not to forget that you guys have been fabulous as always...
“What problem do you want to solve?” Good question.
Yes! Indeed
The hole in my heat left by not enough gear!
“What problem do you want to solve?” Muffled harshness lol
Nick Holum Like the John Prine tune! “There’s a hole in my arm where all my money goes....”
Sounds like digital is waning and people are longing for analog.
i've applied to OIART and applying to more colleges soon! i have turned 18 today, it is my birthday so yay. very fortunate as Steven Slate and John McLucas will be writing reference letters for me. waiting for feedback friday!
Frozy my Friend
Happy Birthday
@@andreirlmeier thankyou so much Andre!
I am a full time mixing engineer, I mix for music and film. For music, I mix ITB in Sequoia, but then my master buss leaves the digital world via a Mytek D/A feeding a Great River MAQ-2NV Mastering Equalizer into a Manley Mastering Edition Variable Mu Compressor with TBar Mod and we print to 1/4” Tape at 15IPS which is a MCI JH110B with API 2520s on the ins/outs. For me each adds something I just can't get ITB and its worth the extra effort for the depth and feel it adds. It really makes it sound like a Finished record. Some may say that the end user does not hear the difference and mp3s' are fine... but I do hear it and I love music, thats why I do this.
On the school question - I went to “The Recording Workshop” in Chillicothe Ohio. Great school. Vocational type learning (as in not “tradition” type classroom teaching). Lots of hands on learning. Only a few weeks long. Affordable. Great staff and will never forget my experience there. BUT, still learned infinitely more in the field afterwards. Both are great, but really comes down to where you live and what you can afford (monetarily or otherwise).
So wonderful to see. It's absolutely amazing to hear from someone with so much experience. Quite valuable indeed!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for sharing!
@@Producelikeapro My pleasure! Great work indeed!
RC32 thanks!! I’m so glad to be able to help! Have a marvellous time recording and mixing! many thanks Warren
@@Producelikeapro Thank you so much, friend! Cheers!
Hey Warren, thanks for sharing your thoughts on various topics. With analog summing, let me share my 5 cents worth of experience having done professional mixes for a multitude of artistes across the Asian region.
I personally think that the first step is always always always fix how you hear; getting your room acoustics right and getting a good pair of reference speakers to work on. I cannot stress how much the monitoring is for an engineer akin to a color grader working in the video industry looking at a non-calibrated screen. Everything's going to turn out wrong and inaccurate. Once you understand how your room and speakers sound, the mixing will be alot easier in terms of making judgements on decisions in the mix.
With analog summing it's sort of a black hole and opinions vary from individual to individual. I have spoken to industry friends who swear by analog summing and have also known grammy-winning engineers who hate the idea of summing. Everyone has their own thoughts on how good is it or not. I've done mixes where it was summed through an SSL Matrix and also an SSL Sigma and i do notice a difference in the stereo field and depth of the mix. Is it better than the ITB mix? I'm not sure but it does sound different. I like some elements of the summed mix but other elements of the ITB mix. I guess it's a personal preference.
Of late i've been into the Brainworx bx consoles and I think they are an absolute god-send. I'm able to get various colors of consoles which I would have a hard time having access to by just slapping them across each channel in my session and mixing through them. Want a Neve-ish kind of sound? the Console N works great. They have 3 flavors of SSL consoles being the 4000 E & G and 9000 J, each with their own color and sound.
With all that's being said I think I see all these emulations as colors rather than whether it's being true to the original. I have a hybrid setup in my studio as well with a handful of hardware EQs and compressors that I use on occasion to achieve certain results. That's just my personal experience I hope this helps anyone out there!
Does mixing in the analog summing mixer gives more depth than ITB....Thank you.
thankyou so much for providing your insights on schools. helped me a lot
I recently got a dangerous mix buss +.
One thing I noticed that stood out is the separation between send efx and audio files. Seems like more depth of field as well
first time you do analog processing?
@@atta1798 to the level I'm doing now, yes
@@MikeRP3147 what is the difference?
@@atta1798 it's hard to put into words but I feel sounds have more weight to them. Like they picked up some extra going through the circuitry. And there is also the separation of things.
Like I said it's hard to pit into words.
@@MikeRP3147 what equipment did you have
As a producer making loads of modern pop and dance records, I’ve found myself seeking that glue. Not the compression glue, But the tonal glue.
Having all samples coming from different sources , kick, snare perc etc , It makes sense to run it through a piece of gear that adds a bit of harmonics to all pieces, or just get some box tone.
Also, Summing would be the same thing. There’s an absolute separation between all sounds in an programmed track, summing all though one piece of gear, like the vancouver burl, seems to be a way without compression or eq to subtly marry the mix
I still use analog (hybrid). I have a Midas Venice F32 mixer. I mix mostly in the box, but the mixer is my first level of EQ or perhaps sub mixing on my way into the computer. It also allows me not to need to repatch everything for tracking, since I have per-channel digital I/O. Very efficient work flow
We hear innumerous advices like that or similar. All, ALL comes back to a simple thinking: follow what you like to do! Just find early in life what you love to do and DO IT. Going to school to learn what you like is definitely valid but ultimately the empirical experience will define you as a professional. And to achieve that position in life you NEED to realize what you like to do early in life and do it. This is an advice for any line of work in this planet. I really wished that my parents could have taught me that when I was little...
People really need to try Harrison Mixbus. I sold a very expensive summing unit when I realized that Mixbus not only did the "thing" that analog mixers do that typical "high resolution" DAW summing can't do, but BETTER. I don't know how they did it in software but they did it. Plus, the newest versions of Mixbus are way more stable and easy for Pro Tools guys to move over.
I use several pieces of analog gear - for tracking acoustic guitar, I have 2 signal chains for my spaced pair of Warm Audio Mics .... on the WA251 (set over the shoulder) I use Lindell vintage 500 series preamp, Eq and compressor - then through a Neve 542 before heading into my Apollo X4... on the WA47 ( 12” from 12th fret) I have an SSL 500 series chain including preamp, eq and LMC+ compressor, though the Neve 542 and into the Apollo ....
For my vocal I track through a UAD 6176 ...
I also us an analog master bus signal chain - I usually come out of the DAW (Logic Pro X) to an SSL Fusion, Warm Audio Bus Compressor, the Maag Master Bus EQ then through a pair of Neve 542’s - I’ll use some of all of this gear depending on the source/song/artist...
Re: “digital sounding” colloquial characterization. The term I think best describes the sound is “sterile” or better yet “clinical” material having unmusical or minimal harmonic content.
Yes, I dislike using terms like 'digital sounding' for 'warm' they are very misleading! Thanks for sharing your opinion!
I keep changing my mind on this topic. I generally agree with what you're saying, but if you listen to Kenna's New Sacred Cow (2003) album, THAT thing is 100% digital-sounding! There's nothing about it that could be characterized as "warm", but because of the material and intention of the artist, it works perfectly....so you can't say it's not "musical". It's beautifully musical and sterile at the same time. Which means that none of the words I just used make any sense 😂
would say "electronic" or synthesized i guess...
Technically, "digital" means sampled and thus "pure" because there is nothing added and nothing audible taken away. Or in other words, what goes in, come out the same. What we like about "analog" is the stuff that happens when voltage ramps through circuits and creates non-linearities that take away or add something to the original signal. Summing is similar because voltage ramping from signals dynamically changing both in frequency range and gain, creates a "softer" and more forgiving result when the circuit overloads. When a DAW mixer overloads, it just sounds awful. Something about how signals combine in a circuit path reliant on voltage, is why we tend to prefer analog summing over conventional digital. I will add that I've been using Harrison MIxbus exclusively for mixdowns for years (producing in other DAWs) and sold my Neve summer a couple years back because I was actually preferring the Mixbus versions pretty much every time I'd do an A/B test.
Autodidactic Professor I avoid using “pure” in audio context because I have yet to encounter it. Being how “digital” is artificial by design, it requires analog equipment to capture and convert it to be experienced in the physical realm. There will be impurities which may sound good or not.
I think the reason why “we” [sic] fetishize analog summing and mixing has more to do with the phasing and relation between tracks, especially if coupled by transformers on every channel. Each one is slightly different than the next from core to wire to windings, and if well designed (or not) they color the sound through harmonic distortion, frequency response and phase shift which many ears find flattering.
If our ears become digital, and you can upload yourself into binary to create, mix and experience music digitally then I will call it pure. A pure dystopian nightmare.
I've been mixing through a Capi SumBus, then into their VP28 pre/line amps and it's brilliant. There are transformers on each channel and they just impart a tone on the mix that I have a really hard time getting ITB. Also tracks run out through it just have a tad more clarity and width, which in turn, makes me mix differently. Can You get the same sound ITB? Maybe. But GOOD analog gear can make it easier to get the sound you want, quicker. I just don't think that the saturation emulation, from transformers, tubes and opamps, Is quite there yet. My 2c
Thanks ever so much for sharing Steven!
Love CAPI, bet the summing box is great. Running my mixes through VP-28 either does nothing or, if I push it harder, something I don't particularly like any better than the same kind of pushing ITB. For summing I use Airwindows Console6. Adds some depth vs plain digital. Totally free. Underrated.
@@darwindeeez I've found this to be the case with my VP28s as well. I use all capi stuff in my home studio. But I think using the VP28 would be great after the sumbus. The reason I say that is because the mixbus on the capi sumbus is just the Active combining amplifier. For it to be a proper API mixbus from that time period, it would need a pair of 325s to make up the 6 DB loss out of the ACA.
@@darwindeeez try red dots
My Masterbuss always goes to 2 stereo preamps (Rupert Neve 5024) to heat up the signal and then they hit my stereo compressor (JDK R22) for glue and tightness. Killer results!
Hi, i quite similar. Did you try summing mixer now ?
No, I keep doing it the same way@@MELOPSMUSIC
Great FAQ Friday. Thank you, Warren.
I tend to use my analog gear on sub buses and on the mix bus and on prominent tracks, like bass, main vocals etc. In many cases, except of the mix bus treatment, it is more because I'm more creative with outboard gear than I am with plugins than obtaining a superior tone from analog gear.
Another point is that I love the wrongness analog gear adds.
For example non of my DBX 160's sound exactly the same. But even in this topic plugins are catching up.
In this case I think for example of the Tolerance Modeling Technology (TMT) the girls and guys from Plugin Alliance uses for their channels.
A while ago I considered if I should spend money on a DAW controller, something that does not affect the sound. I then decided to buy a Presonus Faderport 8 since I like the tactile work. And to my surprise it did in fact affect the sound in a positive way for it changed my workflow.
That's why I guess It's not only about to use hardware or plugins, mix in the box or go hybrid. One important part is to have a workflow that feels natural and supports your creativity.
Warren, Love your series and have been watching for 2 years. Minor history first, I'm a multi- instrumentalist, in order drums, bass guitar (Tuba, Euphonium), guitar, keys and low brass. I studied to be a musician, but fate got in the way and I was out of a home at 17 living in my car and playing in everything I could find from brass quartet at christmas time to drums for local theater companies and our very successful dance wedding band. I slept at the back of a dental lab which I was just starting to study "How to make Teeth", for a whole $3.10 an hour. had a very similar path as yours in a way. music was and is my love, so here I am at 58 going back to school, a community collage with a couple SSL's and way too much outboard gear to talk about, a Mastering room and all the goodies. For me it was that bug that I'm making money in the field but have no diploma, although I've run my own side job studio for 30 plus years. It was worth it in that I felt more alive in the industry, I became Protools 2 certified, I met contacts in many fields who did other things then I could supply in my studio, such as rapping, metal guitar and much more. I have a degree no matter how small it is ( Laughable really, you think they could spare the paper, at $ 1,200.00 a year, ). Anyway if you can, then do it, You definitely could teach the class and many nights I felt WHY did I do this. But in the end it was cool, I switched from MOTU to PT and got a ton of gear and plugs at student pricing. Even got PT for half off!!! So My set up, no surprise,... All UAD and A mess of plugs from them and waves and Fab Filter and ect,.... Outboard gear is very simple stuff, a Audient 880, Presonus Eureka for a dedicated Rode NTK, Aphex 207D running Spdif for my Overheads and the rest is all UAD running Neve 1176's on the way in. No Neve In Site on the way in but all Neve on the inside. I have a DBX 160 for bass, and thats about it. Thank you for your vids and all you do to make me a better mixer and musician, it is very appreciated, Your friend Greg
I use a hybrid set up. I of course edit ITB and use a lot of ITB fx but I like to mix it so it sounds pretty good ITB but then I send busses out to an analog mixer and process with some OTB fx as well. Then send it back to the box.
Why go back to school when there are great people like you on RUclips who can teach the masses!
Been waiting on this topic! Thanks once again Warren.
Hi Lamell! My pleasure!
I still occasionally run stems to quarter inch two track to obtain a "different" sound on instruments and vocals. 15IPS with CCIR EQ curve works best for me at +4 using 456 tape. I do also have half inch two track as well, but I find that the best compression comes from quarter inch tape. In the 1980's when I recorded at Powerstation in New York, the engineers would mostly print mixes to quarter inch tape, even though they had half inch at their disposal. All of those great albums that came out of that studio from Bruce, Bryan Adams, Duran Duran, BonJovi were all mixed to quarted inch tape. They preferred 3M 250 tape as it provided them with a feel that the standard 456 tape could not be able to reproduce. Currently, I own several pieces of Manley gear as well as a racked pair of Neve 33022a preamps with the BBC T1801 transformers. They sound incredible! Of course, I own an LA2A, DBX 165,two Distressors and two Liquid Channels. I find myself often running the stereo mix through two API 550b's in totally flat setting just to get something "extra". Other times, with the right plugins, the mixes sound great, especially using the UA Studer tape machine or the Ampex ATR 2 track plugin. I track exclusively with a Manley VoxBox, or the two racked Neve's. Plugins are getting better by the minute, and I can foresee the day when I will not need to run anything through tape. I also have a trick that was used at Powerstation with Bias on a tape machine to make tracks sound toasty. My 2 Inch 16 track machine has not seen much action in a few years. That may go on the auction block soon. I loved your video because you explain it using your own experience, yet, it's OK for others to have their own. Great work!
I've gone hybrid too. Still trying out my analog gear. I use the Neve 173 OPX it also is an 8 channel summing mixer or 4 stereo I love its sound I'm working on getting my studio together I've changed to the presonus 48x48 wich has 32 analog ins n outs but I'm waiting for the rest of my cables and another patch bay to complete my I/O
Best to have your AD/DA the most transparent possible....etc
Thanks for sharing your insight Warren. I believe you are the 1st industry pro, on You Tube, to clarify the analog summing ju-ju.
I've recently got my home studio up and running after a long sebatical new Daw etc. And currently obsessed with becoming a good mix engineer and watched hundreds of your videos, which have been a lifeline through lock down and hugley helpful. Im developing a hyrid system that works for me as I am in love with the idea, althouh im not there yet and would settle for a good mix in the box to start! I have an Allen and Heath Zed r 16 which is a very versatile desk for home use. As well as tracking in I buss back out and can send to a modest rack with a Tl audio c1, a cheap dbx for dirt, and my guitar pedals. and Ive just managed to get my hands on a 120a on your recomedation. I love it. Im on the cusp of a decent mix although it has been hard won. Gain staging and digital sound floor being the biggest learning curve as I had no head room left on my master bus when recording back in. Thanks Warren you are a huge insperation, keep up the good work
Great point on recording with all Neve mic pres' on each track. If you do that, you already have the analog (analogue) goodness on the tracks. Adding more at the end may put too much of that character.
I’ve been using THE basic StudioLive XMax pres to record practices live and it was defiantly sterile. So I took the plunge and picked up an 8 ch NEVE 1073 OPX. Running it line in, What a difference. It reduces a lot of work getting That sound.
I mix through an Allen & Heath Zed R16, also use a couple Warm Audio WA 2A, a Drawmer 1973 and a Neve 5043. The learning curve that was the steepest for the three compressors was the Neve. I cannot make the WA 2As sound bad, I can work well with the Drawmer, but I am careful with the Neve- I dunno why, but I have to be more gentle with it. It's all fun! BTW, I love the EQ on the Zed!
This was a very intelligent and honest explanation. I wish I could afford an analog summing mixer, just to see if it made a difference...
Can you rent something where you live to try it out?
just bought a 24/4/2 Soundcraft Delta DLX, got it cheap as chips.. it's my first console and I plan to get it modified, I have no minimal experience and no education in the music industry.. I'm learning it as I go, I'm 38 and I can't wait to get stuck in.. your channel has been a real help and I plan to sign up as a member. Thank you for all you do!
Cheers my fellow audio adventurer! I thought about getting Delta DLX modules as well, because my engineer school had Soundcraft Ghost which I simply fell in love with. I liked mixing DAW productions with outboard gear, so everything went through the Ghost. It just sounded sculpted and warmer. It might've been the pres, could've been the EQs, I'm not sure.
Ended up collecting bunch of low-end compressors and EQs instead and now I have 10 channels of comp/EQ, couple soviet BBDs, tape delays and spring reverbs. Everything goes thru tubes at some point of the chain. It's dumb and impractical, but I just love it.
@@sytiravajous amazing, I’ve picked up a few bits over the years, still constantly adding. Picked up some reverbs and multi effect stuff. Couple comps. Would love some tube gear
Really loving the new lighting and overall look and quality of the videos! Keep it up!
I write my songs in different DAWs but the last thing i make is the whole signal came out from computer in 2x4 channel and summing this and go a stereo signal into the Drawmer 1976 saturator, Drawmer 1974 EQ and lastly the Art VLA II compressor.
This signal go back in the computer.
This chain is to me is very simple and efficient.
tape on every channel and neve summing on master bus all in box in luna! sounds analog fasure!
Marvellous
i've experienced this not too long ago. I own a soundcraft, from te late '80s, before the company was sold to Harman. The desk is nothing fancy but it is sturdy and it certainly has a sound to it, a lot better quality than the desks they make nowadays. However, i can't use it now because i'm saving up for an interface that has 32 in-/outputs, so now it's just a glorified laptop stand.
Anyway, i was mixing a little score for a film (in the box) and i thought: "why don't go trough the desk?" So i patched it up, pressed play, and WOW!! What a sound, it's like you mentioned, it now has weight, depth and every other buzz word you'll find. it didn't necessarily sound that different, but it felt different, the music became more alive somehow!
I always had this feeling with the real deal, the high end stuff. But i never imagined that the mid tier analog equipement could give me the same. The high end does sound better. But if you're looking for that weight, you don't have to spend that much money. but yeah, maybe i'm just lucky with this particular desk. :p
Mathijs van der Wallen I hear ya man it’s like it has something you can’t put your finger on but you can feel it. I never knew what people meant when they said that a mix sounded taller until
I got my ssl a few years ago. When I listen to mixes I did in the box or on one of my several suuming amps they honestly sound like they’ve been flattened it’s weird man lol
I use Slate Digital Virtual Tube Collection to color the sound of my mix buss. I also use it on a reverb send to add warmth to reverb. There's no need to turn up the saturation knob, just a slight touch of the effect can do the job.
As someone who self taught themselves for 10 years in pro audio.. I absolutely recommend an audio engineer school. You'll be surrounded by people who's lives are just as focused on music as yours. If it's a conservatory that also has musicians alongside engineers: you'll have access to singers, drummers, guitarist, pianists and etc.. that you can co-produce with. Everyone there has free time and interest in music. School environment simply has the best resources for that. Not to mention all the instruments and studio gear you'd have access to in engineer side also. Even IF the level of education is crap, you'll still be focusing on music and practicing at a level that's not comparable to on-and-off hobbyist schedule. And let's be real, the papers you get out of the school might be utterly pointless and not land you any jobs. But I STILL think it's absolutely worth it.
You don't NEED audio engineer school. Sure, you can practice by yourself, find your own network, work hard to get money for your own studio gear and browse youtube for tips. For sure, but it's so much harder path, especially nowadays.
EDIT: I should note I live in Finland and the education here is free. I realize my recommendation might not mean as much elsewhere.
I would record trough 1073 preamps+Eq, compressors, maybe also tape emulators or other saturation and then mix in the box.
Good question indeed... Just added a Neve 8816 summing mix to my rig. Looking forward to use it!!!
I've been using the SSL X Rack for 16 channel(8 Stereo) with my Pro Tools HD. I send all the drums into a stereo bus, all guitars on another Keyboards, Bass and then vocals into 2 XR623 and I XR623 line inputs. I have 8 stereo buses in Pro Tools that goes straight into an Apogee 16 channel DA the into the SSL rack. Each bus has inserts so I can use 2 stereo Chandler Limited TC2 or other outboard gear. I send a stereo out from the SSL into a stereo bus for printing a mix.I can also inset my API 2500 stereo bus compressor into the stereo stereo SSL mix out. I've been using it for many years.
After years in Pro Tools and Cubase I am having a blast using UA Luna. I think their plugins sounds natural, real and the sonics reminds me of the hardware even though I hate to say it as it goes against my childhood dream of having a old school analogue studio. I use LUNA as I would use any of their hardware products. I rig every recording channel just as If I had the luxury of having all the tools in my arsenal. It makes everything from my guitars, to my vocals, my bass etc. sound like a million. This is said by a guy who spend thousand of ours in world-class studios with my own recording heroes.
Great questions and great answers, thanks Warren. I track through a console and send stems back through stereo pairs into Pro Tools.
I use dangerous 2-bus lt, neve 1073 pre amps, ssl611eq and obsidian 500 stereo compressor and i love this!!
Wow! Your lighting is on point!
Oh thank you!
I like the slate console stuff. I use the preamp a console on the way in, and use his mix buss summing on the rear buss. It does really take care of that digital fizz..
Very interesting topics today.
I didn't go to music school but I play on the same stages as the kids who did. School is not important, education and application of knowledge and experience is. You can't find passion in books, its in your heart. If you love it, you will be as good as the person who went to school, if not better.
I needed Friday like Timmy Needed Lassie! I learn so much from FAQ Friday!
Hahaha Thanks Michael!
yeah I appreciate your sentence "take a good preamp and use it everywhere" because if you start from a more analog recording you have good material later for a complete mix in ITB....different if you start with only VST instruments and try to give analog style all in a DAW...it will be more difficult come on in this case. (sorry for my bad english)...it always depends on how the recording quality is
Yes...summing out. Motu avb 16 analog out. 10 of the channels are going into 5 zahl1 stereo eqs (for additional eq options of 5 of my mixbuses out of harrison mixbus.). The remainder along with the outputs of the 5 stereo zahls go into neve 5060 summing mixer. The neve summs it all with an insert on the main mix out using...serpent bus compressor and a tikkilizer 500 series stereo eq into my otari reel to reel 1/4 inch tape machine....
I am using loads of analog gear, mostly 500 series, EQs and compressors before hitting the inputs of an aggregate conglomeration of interfaces going into my DAW. I also go through a few analog boards that have direct outputs that I will then send to an interface but then send the two-bus of that console to my monitor mix for latency free monitoring
Hell yes ! I use analog for tracking and re- amping. For vox, I use a Roswell Pro Audio Mini k67x into a dbx 560A into a Fredenstein VAS FET Compressor.
This is a great chapter, thank you Warren. I have a pair of Golden Age Pre 573 I use on the final bus (sub-master) which is fed from different aux busses (drums, GTRs, Bass, Keyboards, and Vocals), these are the only analog pieces of equipment I used on my mixes, everything else are plugins, including nice coloring ones like Kush's transformer, SSL's X-Saturator, Slate's tape and so on.
I liked the "beef" I got from passing the audio through the GAP transformers, actually, I was thinking in getting the Premiere version that has Carnhill transformers.
Cheers!~
Thank you as always for these videos, always make my Fridays better
Chandler zener through an SSL six. Love the sound and feel. Inspires more work and soo its job is done.
I use a Soundcraft Signature 22 MTK. It is an analog board with converters both directions for every channel. I did not purchase it for the ability to individually send, but now that I know about it, I’ve been playing around. The signal is sent on each track before the rest of the channel (pre eq, etc), but I’ve been rerouting a second track for some of my mics or summing a couple mics and printing some extra tracks as I go.
A/B’ing them later I have be surprised to find I really like the influence of the analog board. I tend to like a blend of the two, but as my skills improve, I expect I might utilize the natural compression a lot more. I will also be experimenting with analog summing my mix busses and then doing the final sum in the box. Thanks for a very informative video (as always).
I mentioned this on another one of your videos, but RUclips likes verbosity.
My final summing stage (Neve 5059) and my mix bus processing is all analog. I've done a bunch of comparison testing against equivalent UAD plugins, and honestly, it's not so much WHAT it does for me, as how it does it and how it lets me work. My summing mixer allows me to mix stems in the box with reasonable headroom, but push them with additional class A gain to hit my mix bus harder in the analog domain. Analog compression still has a bit of extra "snap" to me, and I still find a bit of extra "dimensionality" to my analog outboard EQ and saturation. I can get those sounds in the box - I have done so, and I know it's possible - but I get them more quickly/easily in the analog domain, and I find the gear inspiring. My goal in my small studio is always to do what gets me to the result I want as quickly as possible. I do half my tracking through UAD Unison preamp models, and half through some REALLY nice 500 series pres (API, BAE, Chandler, etc.). They're all great, and I use what gets me to what I want most easily and quickly. I actually track almost all of my drums through the UAD preamps because it's a lot of channels to recall, their Neve preamp models sound perfectly great, and I know I'm going to be compressing the bus eventually anyway. Electric guitars? 99% of the time it's my pair of Chandler TG2s, and occasionally my API 512s. Bass goes through a variety of things - half the time I'm actually multing the signal on my patchbay so I pull a DI signal off my BAE 1073 and then also record the UAD Ampeg SVT. I'm hybrid all the way from tracking to mixdown, and 2020 has proven to be a WONDERFUL time to be in a small studio, because we really do have the option of having (practically speaking) the best of both worlds now.
All that said, if you're on UAD Apollos, the Neve Summing extension for Luna is absolutely incredible sounding. It's the closest I've felt to my hybrid analog-summing workflow in the box, and I highly recommend folks check it out.
You are saying you can get the Neve sound ITB without the analog equipment? or I misunderstood?
@@atta1798 I have yet to get that same sound ITB using no analog equipment. What I’m saying is that the UAD analog summing models in Luna come closer to that sound than anything else I’ve tried.
@@melissabell585 indeed, I see what you mean.... NICE!!!
Mix busses. A little Analog gear on mix busses. Digital on individual tracks. Best of both worlds.
and a little summ ;)
I don't regret not going to school beyond high school but I do see the potential value in contacts made, experience(s) gained and just simply "getting out of Dodge". If you live somewhere where there aren't opportunities to take advantage of for the field you're interested in, school might be a way to break away and gain potential opportunities and life-relevant experiences. One last thought: being surrounded by people with shared interests is HUGE, regardless of the interest. Warren is, of course, right on all accounts, just adding a few other considerations. Once you're settled into your life, the opportunities can become quite limited and sometimes don't come your way again.
I bought and built my studio and learning from you and other guys. Thanks!🙏
I used various mic pres and channel strips that have a particular flavor. Undertone Audio MPEQ-1's that can be both clean and have a thicker tone when using the transformers. I also LOVE my old Neve 1272's especially for lead vocals. I have a couple of other units in pairs in case I want to record stereo live V72's and older Grace audio which are open, large and clean. I get a lot of great sound on the front end of a capture. For mixing, I have a small, custom API mixer with vintage 2503's and API Opamps and a master buss insert for adding compressors and eq. It makes difference in the the quality of the print for sure. I wish I had space for a large console. I love the Rupert Neve 5059, you get 16 channels going to 2 stereo busses and each individual track can be panned and has a insert for other outboard gear.
Always love FAQ Friday with you Warren! Cheers!!
I love your phrase on the reason you wouldn't want to add a L and R preamp it to the stereo bus, 'like slamming it with a sledge hammer and hoping for the best' lol lol - I hear you warren! :) me too!
Recently Ive been research Clipping! That is something that all the younger engineers are doing (after waves L2/L3 era) to slam individual tracks, like shakers hats brass etc, that would be a cool topic too!
Go to school, Warren! I would love to see you making a video with cap and gown celebrating your music degree! :)
This year I went back to my old process of creating summed stems and then I mix the stems in the box. To my ears I notice a difference in quality and by quality I mean it sounds analog, smooth, warm and finished (all the cliches, haha). I should mention I do own plenty of quality plugins. Sometimes I have plugins on running into the outboard chain. All the best....
I definitely need summing. I hope summing shows up soon!
Hi Stephen! Thanks for sharing!
Produce Like A Pro ✌️You’re welcome. Let me know if summing happens.
Using a dbx 386 on all my tracks. It adds “warmth” (I know everyone will understand) that I don’t find in plugins’ treatments. Can’t live without!
I work with the best mics, analog preamps and the best room I can lay my hands on to get my sound. Once it's recorded 75% of the work is done
After a few years of summing and mixing in the box; summing isn't everything. It isn't gonna save your mix. And as Warren said, there were times where the box mix was better than the summed mix.
Pros of summing are that you get a rounder, more open and tighter sound. Your mix articulates better, especially on smaller systems.
Cons: its time consuming and recalls means you have to sum again. Sometimes the box is better, because the tone and levels you set are the tone and levels you set hahaha summing can offset that slightly.
But I love summing. It adds a character the box just can't add. If time allows, I will always sum a project. If not, the box mixes are also good.
I've never been this early, really great vid!
Yay! Thank you! Thanks for sharing!
When you say, "I'd probably run everything through it individually...", do you have a video that addresses that concept? (I searched your channel and didn't find one). I had an experience on my first record where I did a decent job of recording and mixing everything, but then we signed with an indie label and they wanted to have it remixed.The mix engineer took each track and ran them through a Neve pre, then once everything was run through the Neve, mixed the album again. The results were fantastic. But, I don't really recall specifically how it was done. I think a lot of your followers might find themselves in a position where they record a song, and then sometime after that, upgrade their studios and maybe wish they could do something similar, run all their previously recorded tracks through a newly acquired high-end preamp before mixing. I get the GENERAL idea, but I think it'd be great to see a video on how to do that step by step. Anyway, love your channel. Thanks for what you do.
Many people do this now not only with vintage rack gear like the Neve but also things like DIY Colour Modules.
Well...I tried summing through my desk , through a stereotube compresser and through a cheap 8 channel line mixer and yes : it allways has an impact that I like (wider soundstage, "warmer (not a loss of HF*) !", " recognisable sound ", the sense of very light but pleasing compression going on. This is what I sense and hear (even blindfolded). Maybe for someone else the experience is completely different . That said , another difference for me is the fact that once you convert your mix (ITB) down to 16 bit 44.1K some quality "gets lost ". If you mix through a mixing desk and record the mix in good 16 bit quality , you don't experience that at all. That alone is allready enough reason for me to mix (or run the mix) through analogue equipment . I picked a 32 bit 48 K ITB project , rendered the mix in 16 bit , 44.1 K, and compared it to the same mix directly recorded in 16 bit on my other DAW PC (same RME converts on both DAW PC's) . I then created a new project in 16 bit, 44.1 K ,imported both 16 bit mixes and ran some analysers on them: things get lost when you convert your music to 16 bit ITB. So ...I guess there's more going on than just summing ...
Mixing entirely in the box vs a console for me is about how the process and work flow goes. I find that working in totally the box wears me out physically a lot faster than working through a console or in a hybrid fashion. Constantly scrolling through plugin menus, preferences, and settings gets tiring and boring really fast for me where getting up and down, plugging in patch bay’s, working knobs and faders, etc seems to keep it a lot more interesting to me for a much longer time and is much less tiring.
I find that in the box, after three or four hours I’m mentally exhausted but in a analog studio I’m just getting warmed up and lose all track of time.
My current set up uses a Apogee Symphony 16 channel I/O and a API the Box Console with 16 returns. The outs of the 16 tracks go into the API as individual tracks or stereo stems and then the output of the console goes into a Apollo interface and back into the computer. I just recently discovered how to use two DAW’s and two interfaces on the same computer acting like a multi track and a mixdown deck. Before I either used a second computer or a reel to reel tape deck to mix down to. This gives me the best of both worlds and my work flow still relates to the pure analog days when I started out recording.
I know that most modern engineers would look at my set up and work flow and think it is crazy! Through this console I can use any outboard gear or any plugins really easily, all on inserts. I mostly use API preamps but also have and use, RCA, Telefunken, and UALA610MK2 preamps. I use a Manley ELOP, UREI1176, 2500Comp, 5500EQ, eventide eclipse, and the UAOX. I have other vintage outboard stuff but don’t use it too much anymore.
In general, I prefer devices where one knob or one button has one function.
However, After getting the amazing vintage style Apollo plugins I started to feel as though I don’t need some of the hardware I was seriously considering buying, such as the Distressor and Fatso Empirical Labs compressors, or an Avalon.
You can’t beat the sound of the API console which does impart a signature sound into your mixes, but that is all subjective. The master section and sound through the headphones is in another world from any of the pro-Sumer interfaces with built in monitor sections that I’ve heard. The headphone monitor feed sounds a lot better through the API than it does through the Apollo X4.
Not to sound like an API salesman, but their customer service is also amazing.
I do use a summing mixer (Dangerous music D-box) sometimes, but frankly, the loss connected to a double conversion needed, in most the cases, is not worth the effort. I found my way to make the bus master "analog" enough to make me and my clients happy. But I agree with the Class A mic preamps as front end. I invested a lot of money in different Neve preamps and some others, too, and I use it to impart character to my recordings.
SHADOW HILLS EQUINOX----- My 2020 summing setup involves the Shadow Hills Equinox. That is my summing box of choice, mixed to to external 2 track . Massive amounts of hardware (CL1B, RS124's, LA3A, 2A's, Sta-Level, 1176's, Pultec etc...). I came out of the generation that was dare I say ..."Pre-digital recording". Otari MTR90, Studer, Ampex. The 1st boar that I ever touched was a Harrison back in 1984. I need to feel it and touch it. If I can calibrate it and can touch a capstan then I'm happy. There is a kinesthetic enjoyment to working with what you can touch and sculpting sound from a visceral perspective that does not involve the clicking of a mouse. The Shadow Hills Equinox is a beast of a machine. I sum 16 out from the DAW. No more. my 128 point patchbay sums into the Equinox. All 32 channels are used on the Equinox. 3 different trannie selections. Iron , Nickel, and Steel which is more mid forward, More American Motownish). In the end, what makes you happy? For myself, I have to touch, feel the texture of it all and feel a connection between my ears, galvanic skin response, my hands, my eyes, my abdomen and last but certainly not least... my heart. May we all be true to our paths and respectful of those who choose a different one. Enjoy!
This is nice lecture!!
I have been mixed only plugins.
But to improve my work of sound quality
I started to using preamp for vocal recording.
and now also I often use for drum track summing.
result was very nice. I could realize that more gule from my mixing.
finally I'm korean.
when I was puberty.
korea had not good institutions for learnig to music recording technology.
so I decided to go japan for schooling.
After graduated from school.
I got a job in japan as a field recording engineer. It was a kind different job from the music industry. but It was a really nice experience to me. I had learned a lot of knowledge from work.
After I come back to korea. I've been worked as a sound system designer.
Of course this job is related to sound industry but Sound system designer is required another ability from field recording engineer.
Somtimes I think
if I didn't have a diploma. Maybe I would not have got this job in korea.
Now I'm making music and relese my works. but as well as I still working for making living.
As you put it that these days music industry is confront with hard sircumstance. so get a job in music industry is a very hard.
Schooling in institution is not must.
but I think.
diploma is just like a insurance that helps to choose a job more widely.
Thank you for uploading this video.
Warren, the quality of video really makes a difference. Very nice
Another helpful video. Thanks a ton Warren. Your knowledge is just sooooo helpful for us aspiring producers/engineers.
Great advices about analog summing and schooling!
Thanks ever so much
I use the original Dangerous 2 Bus for summing and I swear by it definitely sonically as well as process-wise. It's not a matter of just taking a mix and spreading it out, though I do think that that helps - it's more of mixing into it. Also seeing the analog outs from PT helps me to keep my mixes "honest" meaning I generally wind up having to lower bus levels to not overload. Also, the beautiful interface appeals to me ,and feels like having a console in a box. I do get better results, without a doubt.
I use SSL X-desk on my every mixes , it sounds really good for me !!!!!
Love!
Great to hear! Thanks for sharing!
Dinosatriani, it has been 9 months since this comment. Are you still using your X-desk? Are you using it to record and mix? What DAW are you using it with? I am very curious because I am looking at the X-desk as a possibility. What are the pros and cons you have run into?
I have an inexpensive 8 channel analog pre and record as much as I can through it, and then to converters and I love the little tiny bit of wrongness(warmth) it gives me 🤟.
on my mix bus i use the neve MBP master bus the neve 8803 EQ and SSl fusion and i get fantastic results ...Cheers !!
Thank you for this ever popular question. I have a nice summing box (Dangerous Music) but I rarerly use it now since I prefer to stay completely ITB, mainly for recall reasons. But I don't feel that is a sacrifice. I found my way of taming the transient and to round off the highs in a nice way. But I really prefer not to have tha double or quadruple conversion that in my opinion is a very expensive price to pay for a limited advantege, Especially now that there are so many interesting plugins that recreate every nuance of the supposedly "magic" analog path, that in the end is only a fair dose of saturation, harmonic distortion and Intermodulation distortion. I have now so many ways to dirty up the sound that I feel limited when I use my analog summing.
It took a while to find my way, but now I am really happy. And my clients too, since I don't have to charge them for expensive recall time. I know that there will be people that don't agree, but in the end, are you able to separate the ITB mixed songs from the Analog Summed ones?
A potential question:
When mixing a drumkit, do you prefer using one room or verb channel for the kit, or do you like to break things up and be selective? Eg, no" verb on kicks but only on snare and toms? Are those two different verbs? I imagine this depends on the mix quite a bit.
As a metal guy I like my kicks with no room but add some to snares and toms, maybe ambient mics on cymbals if they add accent or power. That said, if the song is faster and complex I avoid too much ambient stuff because it gets messy quite quickly. Thoughts?
thanks and keep up the great content!
For me, and it absolutely depends on the project, the music, what is its sound and texture, what does it need?
I generally DO put verb, or a "room," on the toms, usually individually, but occasionally, on an extremely well tuned kit, one on the racks, but the floor toms I always treat individually. Kicks rarely get much. Snare is always determined by the sound/feel of the snare drum itself, how it's coming through each mic, top and bottom, how the drummer sounds when playing through the song,, and especially based on the song.
A doomcore band I occasionally will work with, those toms always require a lot of big room verb added to them, because the kid's kit is pretty dead sounding, even when I bring in a different drummer to tune them, who is a phenomenal talent when it comes to tuning a kit. It is a four-piece band that tends to leave some space in their arrangements, and the sound of the band just works with a big open drum sound, not only will the toms get a lot of big roomy verb added, the snare will get a fairly significant amount of verb added on the top and on the bottom mics. The kicks, because it is a fairly dead sounding kit, and because the band sounds more powerful with a large crushing kick drum, plus they don't do a lot of 260 BPM thrash beats, I will put a reverb pedal on to those tracks. Then a compressor and a limiter to cut that reverb off without making it sound artificial.
Working on metal, I tend to have reverb on each tom individually, almost never on the kicks, and again it's case-by-case on the snare. from song to song that can change, and even within a song for certain parts there might be a little additional reverb and other parts just cutting it off and killing that reverb so it doesn't sell mushy or muddy or over cluttered. Very very rarely will I add anything to the kicks, occasionally a small small room added to a slow part of a song, just for Indians and feel.
A while back I was working on some very industrial influenced music, and, even though we did not want anywhere near as mechanical, and metallic, sounding of drums as a lot of industrial music tends to use, we wanted to keep a more organic sound to the drums, so we did not add any reverb to the kick or the snare, and only a small amount to each individual tom track, with comp on each track as well.
I generally use a room sound for the whole kit, to get it to sound like a single instrument. Then I’ll add additional delays or verbs to specific tracks as needed.
I do love the fact that the box is constantly improving more and more all the time.
There was a time where I would have chosen cheap analog over digital and now I would only choose analog if it was high end and free to use.
I would love to have some outboard units if I had some converters to match them to add the true flavor, but the price for a small bit of that is the same cost as a very very very large digital setup.
Plus now, RUclips has given us more mouths to listen to than ever.
I use to be only SoundOnSound, amazing guys they are, but once you're a bit of a pro yourself you really just seeking those ideas you haven't thought of yourself.
And then really that isn't so necessary, it's more just to keep you occupied with tinkering with some interesting ideas so your art stays living through your actions.
I unluckily keep being unlucky so I spend most of my time in the world of ideas, but that also means I'm tooling myself up more with education while having space from actually creating.
Although, there is a point and I had hit that point a long time ago where ideas are great but if you're not doing your not getting in the flow ad that part is the most important thing.
Plus now, the advice is far less criticized in the way it is taught, I think we have all relaxed into thinking being profession is about allowing creativity and mistakes as part of a professional process, if simply so new things can be found.
I really like this bit of information about transformers being on every channel.
There is a question I have, apart from the character you get from analog have you ever found the way analog brings the audio together to be far more pleasing than digital?
I always have.
Take away the character and there is still something different in the sound.
It's a little like the difference in seeing a sunrise and taking a photo of a sunrise.
It's how it puts it all together.
Have you ever noticed this?
Because this is the thing that draws me to want to get some sort of summing.
I'm now thinking of how I can ensure there are transformers in the inputs the master outputs.
I'm thinking I can get two birds high with one joint by buying a 4 or 8 channel transformer-based preamp with two output options for each channel and adding a summing unit with transformers on the master output so I then have the preamps to use as preamps and then it can double at the first signal path for the summing.
Tell me what you think or maybe I'll see a video about the way analog mixes sounds together.
I find it more open.
Like being in a really magical woods and noticing only that, wherewith digital you're noticing all your clothes you're wearing also.
Which can be nice but it's completely pure.
Or am I now get too physiological? ahahaha I do that a lot!
as some who is unpractised at high-end analog, I've only had a taste I do not know really well and I am also wondering if once it is all converted at the end to digital, is that tiny tiny little thing I'm talking about going to be lost anyway?
when I say "tiny" it isn't as noticeable as the character that is added in transformers... but a good example is that some summing cables do this thing I'm talking about better than a box
So maybe I need the 8 channel preamp and then a compressor or eq or a combo unit at the end of that summing cable... or just the go from the preamp back in the box through the summing cable.
New videos are looking fantastic my friend 🙌
For me, once we start recording using DAW, the analog signals converted to digital. That is why they use 16/44.4 up to 32/96 or more depends on how powerful your device can handle to process. Whatever your gear, expensive or free one, those signals already divided into rounded numbers. The only difference is the time to process those signals. Hardware definitely faster than CPU and doesn't have to calculate the incoming signal before sending it out unless you use digital hardware. The result is the same. Data being process already divided into bit 1/0. So summing devices also get signals from the exact number of bit. Math is never lying but calculation might go wrong. In the end, everything is about the taste of hearing. That makes music a piece of art.
more important, the ears' experience than the taste.