Marc, align the 4th axis true as you previously did. Don't try and re-align to true the plates. The most important thing is that the axis of the rotary is parallel to the machine bed and aligned with X. I would re skim the end plates, taking a very light pass off them and try to only apply a very small amount of side pressure if possible if holding from the sides. I would also ditch the dowels between the end plates and the base plate, they don't allow you the adjustment that you need. If you want the sides of the base plate to be nice and true to the X axis, machine those as a final operation when they are installed in the assembly after all of the other elements are aligned well. One final thing is that if you are still overloading the 4th axis, you may have to reskim the bottom face of the end plate to make sure it's square to the vertical face. Just my ten pence for what it's worth!
Hi John, I did start afresh and re align the 4th axis rotary and bolted it down secure and did not touch it or move it again. i ended up re machining the end plates as the mounting faces were not perpendicular to each other, as you suggested i removed the down pins and i enlarged the bolt holes to allow alignment in x with moving the 4th axis, Basically everything you have mentioned needed to be done and things have finally come good after a good learning curve Its all shown in the next video Thanks for commenting and helping out Marc
Believe it or not, I actually appreciate this content quite a bit. Lets me know I'm not alone when it comes to the frustration of running in circles for hours and hours while trying to figure shit out. lol. Thats a sweet little shop setup you got there btw.
Hi Thank you, glad its not too boring for people, ive certainly spent my fair share of hours going in circles lol Thanks for the shop comments, im pretty happy with it, theres more id like to do to be set up better and itdier but everything is money so i make do and try and add touches and as when i can Thanks Marc
@@kinzy_fabrications I feel you there brother! This stuff def aint cheap (and by the looks of it, I imagine you've got alot more $ wrapped up in your equipment than I do lol). If you dont mind me asking, whats the sq footage (or meters) of your shop? Cuz seems like youve done a good job of squeezing multiple decent size machines into a relatively moderate sized space. Thats my biggest issue currently, im about maxed out on space in a single car garage.
Clock the 4th axis then DO NOT TOUCH it, you must have an accurate datum to build upon, then only adjust what comes after it, the only place you shoud be clocking after that is the mounting plate because clocking the end brackets is a red herring adding non required data, adjust the bracket to trunnion interface to true up.
As you suggested i went back and started from scratch at the 4th axis, got it true as i could bolted tight and left it alone, then onto the rest of the problems going along the line Thanks Marc
All good comments!! You mentions removing the dowel pin of the assembly to allow adjustements, the longer the distance between the 2 sets of 2 pins the greater the error, I would but 4 dowels per joints. Or use key ways since I think you only need perfect perfect alignement of the end parts on the Y axis, unless the distance between the 2 end parts is critical. I would also check the assembly on a surface plate prior to mounting on the machine, using a long ground shaft to check where the plate is in relation to the bores.
Hi Thanks for the comments, i have removed the dowel pins and decided to not use any, this has allowed a bit more free movement to align and has worked well, the only potential issue is if the bolts ever worked loose when machining it could maybe move slightly but unlikely to happen, i ened up checking the ends on a granire plate as you will see in the next video coming soon Thanks Marc
Why are you not using the table as a reference point? Machine the plate flat put spacers / parallels under the plate and then mount to the 4th axis - then remove the spaces that should give you reliable flat mounting of the plate. Hope this makes sense?
First i'd bolt the trunnion to the 4th with out the plate, then point the face the plate bolts to up clock the face in x and Y and see where its laying may need a tickle in situ, the front of it you was clocking doesnt really matter, just the relationship between the face incontact with the 4th and the face where the long plate bolts to that part.
Hi Yeah that front edge means nothing and i realise that now, its the mounting face being square to the plate face that matters, and i ended up re doing that to get it square Thanks Marc
When I line my 4 axis up I have a ground bar that I know the error in it. It goes in to the bore 2”. I then run the clock on the side and top. My datum bar is the length of my x axis. That way I know my 4 axis is parallel with the x axis, and square to y. After that we Mount are Trunnion skim the z face. Rotation 90 and then as you go down the face in x it should be perfect .0000, this is how we make our trunnions. Plus use the bearing block a lot stronger plus less chatter/vibration than tail stock.
Hi I have a ground bar to do that with the initial 4th axis set up but my x is just over 1 meter travel and my bar is not that long and at that weight it would tilt in the bore clearance, probably be good if i had a 12" bar and got that perfect, I have decided to stick with the bearing block support as i wasnt happy with the 4th axis tailstock set up Thanks Marc
I suspect that the issues are primarily coming from the trunnion end plate you’re attaching to the 4th axis where it mates to the trunnion bar. If it is a possibility, I don’t know anything about this 4th axis hardware, I would suggest that you knock the 4th axis back true and re-machine the portion of the trunnion end plate (4th axis spindle end) that mates to the trunnion bar by spinning it 180 degrees (flip upside down) so that the face will match the machine XY plane and your dowel pins will then be in machine YZ. Hopefully there is very little error in A so that when you flip it back over, it’s right where you want it to be in parallel.
Hi Your 100% right, that mounting plate was the main cause of error that just caused the error to compound as i moved out further, the platter face was not perpendicular to the trunnion plate face, in the next video i show how bad it was and how i went back to correct it Thanks Marc
If the 4th axis is true, then I wouldn't worry about the face of the ally part you bolt on. As this is not what you are bolting your long plate to. Check and re machine in position the bottom where you are bolting to. And go from there
Hi Thanks for the comment, i did exactly that, i check on a granite plate with a clock to see if my lower face was perpendicular to the platter mounting face and it was miles off so my error was bad from the start and just getting worse as i moved out Thanks Marc
@@kinzy_fabrications Hi Marc I'm sure you'll get it sussed in the end. I'm new to the channel, love the content, especially this project Willing you on to succeed with it 👍 Alex
Would it not be possible to adjust the end part that is mounted on the 4th axis plate in place when it sits correctly on the plate, if you now know that the 4th axis is aligned in all axes. Disassemble the fixture plate and turn the 4th axis plate 180 degrees and take a skimcut and maybe machine for larger dowelpins. Then it should line up? Of course, you move up the fixture plane in Z by a few hundredths of a millimeter, and you have to adjust the block for the support bearing by the same amount. NOTE: If I were to make such an adjustment as I describe above, I would indicate the 4th axis on the plate and not on the part that is attached to the plate as you show here in the video to be completely sure that the 4th axis is 100% correctly adjusted, so that you do not build misalignments into the setup right from the plate. Hope some of this makes sense. //Stefan
Hi I ened up re machining the platter mounting plate and support end plate but didnt do them in situ but same results, when it comes to indicating the 4th axis plate, fusion 360 will only allow you to use the centre of A axis rotation as a datum, i cant set z off of any other surface as it does not allow you too so Z & Y have to be centre of the 4th and x can be wherever i want it to Thanks Marc
Why dont you take it apart and check location's? .4mm is alot! Should be within .05mm? You should be able to see what and were it all went wrong by inspecting the parts that make it up
Hi Jason That’s exactly what I did If you see the next video I got it Aligned and sorted, I had multiple errors causing the alignment issues Thanks Marc
I hate to see you scratching you're head. (I've had brain surgery due to a stroke, so please don't take any of this as bad.) First thing I would do is take it all back off and recheck as you reassemble. Starting with the shimming of indexer. If you go back to the day it was new, chances are that it started life in good shape (doesn't mean that it can't be out, but say it's ok). Next I would check the platter, should be set to where it is square and perpendicular to the table. That way you know the indexer is perfect, or within .0002" overall. Then bolt the faceplate on and just lightly snug up. Rotate the flat where you can run an indicator along the "y" to get it to run within .0001". Check the "x" runout, it should be .00005" or better. The flat surface of that piece needs to be as perfect as you can get it. Tighten mounting bolts and recheck surfaces. It should all repeat. If it does move, then there is something not quite right. I've only seen you indicate the front face part of that piece, and that really doesn't mean anything. Then you can start adding the table and end support assembly. I hope you find the solution, I wish you the best!!!
Hi As you suggest i started back from the 4th axis, its quite old and doesnt run perfectly true but theres nothing i can do about that and i can only get it as good as i can, as mentioned i then moved onto the trunnion mounting plate and re worked it to get the platter mounting face and good as 90 to the plate face as i could. i had a lot of error here so this was the starting point to get right before moving forward Thanks Marc
Marc, align the 4th axis true as you previously did. Don't try and re-align to true the plates. The most important thing is that the axis of the rotary is parallel to the machine bed and aligned with X. I would re skim the end plates, taking a very light pass off them and try to only apply a very small amount of side pressure if possible if holding from the sides. I would also ditch the dowels between the end plates and the base plate, they don't allow you the adjustment that you need. If you want the sides of the base plate to be nice and true to the X axis, machine those as a final operation when they are installed in the assembly after all of the other elements are aligned well. One final thing is that if you are still overloading the 4th axis, you may have to reskim the bottom face of the end plate to make sure it's square to the vertical face.
Just my ten pence for what it's worth!
Hi John,
I did start afresh and re align the 4th axis rotary and bolted it down secure and did not touch it or move it again. i ended up re machining the end plates as the mounting faces were not perpendicular to each other, as you suggested i removed the down pins and i enlarged the bolt holes to allow alignment in x with moving the 4th axis,
Basically everything you have mentioned needed to be done and things have finally come good after a good learning curve
Its all shown in the next video
Thanks for commenting and helping out
Marc
Believe it or not, I actually appreciate this content quite a bit. Lets me know I'm not alone when it comes to the frustration of running in circles for hours and hours while trying to figure shit out. lol. Thats a sweet little shop setup you got there btw.
Hi
Thank you, glad its not too boring for people, ive certainly spent my fair share of hours going in circles lol
Thanks for the shop comments, im pretty happy with it, theres more id like to do to be set up better and itdier but everything is money so i make do and try and add touches and as when i can
Thanks
Marc
@@kinzy_fabrications I feel you there brother! This stuff def aint cheap (and by the looks of it, I imagine you've got alot more $ wrapped up in your equipment than I do lol). If you dont mind me asking, whats the sq footage (or meters) of your shop? Cuz seems like youve done a good job of squeezing multiple decent size machines into a relatively moderate sized space. Thats my biggest issue currently, im about maxed out on space in a single car garage.
@@wolfhausindustries my space is about 1500 sq ft
Started the work a year ago right now I'm able to program upto 4th axis simultaneous with very little experience this kind of videos help a lot.
Hi
I am glad the videos helped you a little along the way, all the best for the future
Marc
Clock the 4th axis then DO NOT TOUCH it, you must have an accurate datum to build upon, then only adjust what comes after it, the only place you shoud be clocking after that is the mounting plate because clocking the end brackets is a red herring adding non required data, adjust the bracket to trunnion interface to true up.
As you suggested i went back and started from scratch at the 4th axis, got it true as i could bolted tight and left it alone, then onto the rest of the problems going along the line
Thanks
Marc
All good comments!! You mentions removing the dowel pin of the assembly to allow adjustements, the longer the distance between the 2 sets of 2 pins the greater the error, I would but 4 dowels per joints. Or use key ways since I think you only need perfect perfect alignement of the end parts on the Y axis, unless the distance between the 2 end parts is critical. I would also check the assembly on a surface plate prior to mounting on the machine, using a long ground shaft to check where the plate is in relation to the bores.
Hi
Thanks for the comments, i have removed the dowel pins and decided to not use any, this has allowed a bit more free movement to align and has worked well, the only potential issue is if the bolts ever worked loose when machining it could maybe move slightly but unlikely to happen, i ened up checking the ends on a granire plate as you will see in the next video coming soon
Thanks
Marc
Why are you not using the table as a reference point? Machine the plate flat put spacers / parallels under the plate and then mount to the 4th axis - then remove the spaces that should give you reliable flat mounting of the plate. Hope this makes sense?
I have got there eventually, i didnt do it this way though, im not sure i understand the way you mean
Thanks
Marc
First i'd bolt the trunnion to the 4th with out the plate, then point the face the plate bolts to up clock the face in x and Y and see where its laying may need a tickle in situ, the front of it you was clocking doesnt really matter, just the relationship between the face incontact with the 4th and the face where the long plate bolts to that part.
Hi
Yeah that front edge means nothing and i realise that now, its the mounting face being square to the plate face that matters, and i ended up re doing that to get it square
Thanks
Marc
When I line my 4 axis up I have a ground bar that I know the error in it.
It goes in to the bore 2”. I then run the clock on the side and top. My datum bar is the length of my x axis.
That way I know my 4 axis is parallel with the x axis, and square to y.
After that we Mount are Trunnion skim the z face. Rotation 90 and then as you go down the face in x it should be perfect .0000, this is how we make our trunnions.
Plus use the bearing block a lot stronger plus less chatter/vibration than tail stock.
Hi
I have a ground bar to do that with the initial 4th axis set up but my x is just over 1 meter travel and my bar is not that long and at that weight it would tilt in the bore clearance, probably be good if i had a 12" bar and got that perfect,
I have decided to stick with the bearing block support as i wasnt happy with the 4th axis tailstock set up
Thanks
Marc
I suspect that the issues are primarily coming from the trunnion end plate you’re attaching to the 4th axis where it mates to the trunnion bar. If it is a possibility, I don’t know anything about this 4th axis hardware, I would suggest that you knock the 4th axis back true and re-machine the portion of the trunnion end plate (4th axis spindle end) that mates to the trunnion bar by spinning it 180 degrees (flip upside down) so that the face will match the machine XY plane and your dowel pins will then be in machine YZ. Hopefully there is very little error in A so that when you flip it back over, it’s right where you want it to be in parallel.
Hi
Your 100% right, that mounting plate was the main cause of error that just caused the error to compound as i moved out further, the platter face was not perpendicular to the trunnion plate face, in the next video i show how bad it was and how i went back to correct it
Thanks
Marc
If the 4th axis is true, then I wouldn't worry about the face of the ally part you bolt on.
As this is not what you are bolting your long plate to.
Check and re machine in position the bottom where you are bolting to.
And go from there
Hi
Thanks for the comment, i did exactly that, i check on a granite plate with a clock to see if my lower face was perpendicular to the platter mounting face and it was miles off so my error was bad from the start and just getting worse as i moved out
Thanks
Marc
@@kinzy_fabrications
Hi Marc
I'm sure you'll get it sussed in the end.
I'm new to the channel, love the content, especially this project
Willing you on to succeed with it
👍
Alex
Thanks Alex
Means alot to know people enjoy this stuff as much as i do even when its driving me mad lol
Next video will be up today
Thanks
Marc
Would it not be possible to adjust the end part that is mounted on the 4th axis plate in place when it sits correctly on the plate, if you now know that the 4th axis is aligned in all axes.
Disassemble the fixture plate and turn the 4th axis plate 180 degrees and take a skimcut and maybe machine for larger dowelpins.
Then it should line up?
Of course, you move up the fixture plane in Z by a few hundredths of a millimeter, and you have to adjust the block for the support bearing by the same amount.
NOTE: If I were to make such an adjustment as I describe above, I would indicate the 4th axis on the plate and not on the part that is attached to the plate as you show here in the video to be completely sure that the 4th axis is 100% correctly adjusted, so that you do not build misalignments into the setup right from the plate.
Hope some of this makes sense.
//Stefan
Hi
I ened up re machining the platter mounting plate and support end plate but didnt do them in situ but same results, when it comes to indicating the 4th axis plate, fusion 360 will only allow you to use the centre of A axis rotation as a datum, i cant set z off of any other surface as it does not allow you too so Z & Y have to be centre of the 4th and x can be wherever i want it to
Thanks
Marc
That bottom part bolted on the chuck has an error from milling bolting or both. It is like using a boat level compared to a 4ft level for setting out.
Yep my problem from the start is the platter face not being perpendicular to the plate mounting face
Why dont you take it apart and check location's? .4mm is alot! Should be within .05mm? You should be able to see what and were it all went wrong by inspecting the parts that make it up
Hi Jason
That’s exactly what I did
If you see the next video I got it
Aligned and sorted, I had multiple errors causing the alignment issues
Thanks
Marc
Did the shim stock turn up..old stuff but thin.
Yes thank you and I did end up using some
@@kinzy_fabrications Good that has sat in Dads box for 50yrs so he would like that..
do you have DWO ok your 4 axis?
Hi
No DWO was not an option on these earlier machines
I hate to see you scratching you're head. (I've had brain surgery due to a stroke, so please don't take any of this as bad.) First thing I would do is take it all back off and recheck as you reassemble. Starting with the shimming of indexer. If you go back to the day it was new, chances are that it started life in good shape (doesn't mean that it can't be out, but say it's ok). Next I would check the platter, should be set to where it is square and perpendicular to the table. That way you know the indexer is perfect, or within .0002" overall. Then bolt the faceplate on and just lightly snug up. Rotate the flat where you can run an indicator along the "y" to get it to run within .0001". Check the "x" runout, it should be .00005" or better. The flat surface of that piece needs to be as perfect as you can get it. Tighten mounting bolts and recheck surfaces. It should all repeat. If it does move, then there is something not quite right. I've only seen you indicate the front face part of that piece, and that really doesn't mean anything. Then you can start adding the table and end support assembly. I hope you find the solution, I wish you the best!!!
Hi
As you suggest i started back from the 4th axis, its quite old and doesnt run perfectly true but theres nothing i can do about that and i can only get it as good as i can, as mentioned i then moved onto the trunnion mounting plate and re worked it to get the platter mounting face and good as 90 to the plate face as i could. i had a lot of error here so this was the starting point to get right before moving forward
Thanks
Marc