I've just started experimenting with 24tet yesterday and 31tet definitely seems more useful for sounding "normal" and having the option to go outside that easily
Yeah, 31TET is completely different world from 12 and 24TET (which is basically leaving the notes of 12TET in place). Notes which are kinda similar are only 193.54 (5|31), 503.22(13|31), 696.77(18|31), 1006.45(26|31)
Interesting! Before we got to 31 TET here I was assuming the logical progression would be from 12 to 24 TET, but had no idea what that would sound like in comparison. The fifths sounded somehow a bit flat in the 31 TET example triads, but I guess that's just because the neutral/subminor/supermajor chords were already built on unfamiliar intervals.
@@originalname7176 I want to talk to this person! I have absolute pitch in base-12, and I'm seeking to attain perfect pitch in base-16, and I have a system that can test pitch and interval recognition in 16-EDO. I seem to get an average of about 75% of them right. It's very difficult. I can quite easily discern intervals of 3/8 tones, but I get it wrong with half-diminished fourths / half-augmented thirds. The quarter tones are difficult, so I would love to find out how this person managed to attain that.
Depending on what tuning system you're using, you can recycle the same letter notes from 12-edo but with additional accidentals - here's two ways you can notate the notes in 31-edo (the second one being the one I used in this video): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament#Scale_diagram
You can mess around with different tuning systems within Musescore. Check out my Chopin Waterfall Étude transcription for an example: ruclips.net/video/FO9ihziyL5c/видео.html
There's a lot of systems for microtonal notation, I'd say Sagittal is prolly the most versatile. Here's a wiki page on some of your options tho: en.xen.wiki/w/Musical_notation
The first set of chords is notated as being in A (major, minor, neutral), but is actually played in C (major, minor, neutral). That is a very noticeable difference even without my ability to hear differences as small as a schisma in certain parts of my hearing range.
Thanks for pointing this out! I think what happened is that I mistook the C note to be an A note as I was using a standard 12-note synthesizer but in 31-edo tuning. As a result, the "A note" on the keyboard is no longer an A note and was actually a C. Either way, the first three chords still (hopefully) convey the differences between a major, minor and neutral chord all built with the same note as the root.
Well structured video, the animations are reminiscent of 3Blue1Brown. Looks professional, and you know what you're talking about. I also appreciate the sources in your description. Unfortunate that it's all xenwiki, but I'm not sure there are really any other resources to use. Two criticisms: 1. While you make it clear what a neutral triad is, which to be fair is the whole point of the video, you don't provide examples of how to use the triad. Sure, there are many other videos that show the musical context of neutral harmony. However, this is a high quality video that could be improved by including such an example. 2. At the end of the conclusion you suggest using microtonality for a composer that has "hit a writer's block". This video reads as an introduction to microtonality, particularly 31edo. I'd expect someone coming to this video to learn about microtones would not have much experience with microtones. So, the target audience is presumably inexperienced composers. More notes translating to more ideas might work for someone. But, I find that most people who can't get any ideas down lack the ability to formulate a basic idea, or to develop it. I feel like knowledge of developing ideas goes beyond tuning systems, so that's not a huge concern. However, if you're struggling to form a basic idea, adding a huge amount of potential options is likely to be overwhelming. I know you don't explicitly say "write in 31edo if 12edo stumps you", but it's implied by the video. Microtonality does more consonant options, but there are also a significant number of dissonances offered. For someone composing by trial and error, i.e. someone who's just trying to find an idea that will stick, the increase in options isn't going to help. The only reason I really think this is an issue is because more people getting frustrated at their inability to write music means less people writing music. TL;DR - Moving to 31edo is a huge jump in complexity, and I think it would make the writer's block worse. Regardless, great video.
the number of divisors is actually not that important. 12tet has the divisors 1, 2, 3 ,4 ,6 ,12, but all that really means practically is that augmented and diminished chords hit the octave when stacked, and you have a whole-tone scale(which is actually just 6tet). 31 actually offers purer major and minor chords(closer to the basic ratios of 4:5:6 and 10:12:15) than 24tet does, meaning it is a better candidate. ALSO this is the same with supermajor and subminor chords (6:7:9 and 14:18:21), both being better approximated by 31tet. 24 may be more appealing because it reuses the notes from 12, but 31 can offer stronger consonance and concordance than 24 if you can get used to the sounds of new intervals. this video doesnt really give the whole picture of this because they use sine waves instead of a timbre with more harmonics. but with other timbres it is more clear, because the harmonics line up when you have better approximations of simple ratios. that was a lot so i hope i wasnt too confusing.
@@abnormality00 31 tet isn't practical. The difference in "consonance" unhearable by the majority of people. It's only a conscious issue, A.K.A. a you problem.
24tet is an arbitrary tonal system in that the relation between tone didn’t based on an overtone series relationship. This leads to extreme harmonic density (aka dissonance) while negating the incorporation of higher harmonics. Feel free to use 24 tet but you’ll more easily be able to build upon the harmonic foundations of 12 tet by using a system such as 31,53,72 etc.
Thank you for the explanation! I’d love to see more demonstrations of these chords! Specifically if you demonstrate one after the other it’s easier to notice the difference. So you could do c subminor c minor c neutral c major, c supermajor, that would be awesome. And you could do some of these slight changes with some other famous chords as well.
Nice video, and well explained. I definitely agree that some examples of the possibilities of 31-EDO would have been nice, but otherwise this is a great video.
Very interesting video, now I have to find out how to practice it by playing, perhaps I do have musical ideas that dont feel represented well enough. My problem is that while I can conceptualize the chords I won't feel the effect of the sound without playing it on a keyboard or some other tool. Short of buying Lumatone, any recommendations? For example, if I already have an incredible keyboard do you know of any plugins or software that translates key tunings to microtonal? I'd love to be able to play these chords on my own digital piano to hear them myself in some capacity
Great question! I personally don't have a keyboard so what I use is this app called Synth One by AudioKit (it's what I used to synthesize the sounds for the chords heard in this video). Although it won't be the same as playing on a real keyboard, it will give you a feel for 31-edo (as well as other tuning systems). If anyone else has any suggestions, please feel free to drop them here!
@@05degreesunfortunately no, youtube auto removes links to prevent spam. If you describe the link in alternative ways without using the literal link, that's the best way
@@Shmityorshen Yeah. It’s just on lesser-known channels the filtering often seems not turned on and the links go through, so yesterday I hoped it wouldn’t do that here and forgot to copy what I typed in before refreshing a page so I’ve lost two posts yesterday, the second being completely without links but I guess I was marked for a time as sus. Oh well. And I was too exhausted to retype it the third time. Now I written a bunch and again posted it, with no links, only for it to go away _again_. Ugh. I’m gonna try to post it in chunks and hope for the best.
The author of this video, It seems to me that you added 7 extra notes, that's why you got a 31-tone temperament, but in fact there are only 24 tones here: 1)C 2)C(Semisharp) 3)C(Sharp)/D(Flat) 4)D(Semiflat) 5)D 6)D(Semisharp) 7)D(Sharp)/E(Flat) 8)E(Semiflat) 9)E 10)E(Semisharp)/F(Semiflat) 11)F 12)F(Semisharp) 13)F(Sharp)/G(Flat) 14)G(Semiflat) 15)G 16)G(Semisharp) 17)G(Sharp)/A(Flat) 18)A(Semiflat) 19)A 20)A(Semisharp) 21)A(Sharp)/B(Flat) 22)B(Semiflat) 23)B 24)B(Semisharp)/C(Semiflat)
Great video, but who is the intended audience? You explain in detail how tuning works - is it for people unfamiliar with music theory? You don't provide any examples - is it for people already familiar with 31tet music? You CTA composers to use 31TET to cure writer's block, but this video doesn't go into much detail about practical use of 31TET
Thanks for your input! The way I produced this video was to appeal to audiences who were already familiar with the 12-edo system and then use that to teach them 31-edo (hence the many parallels drawn between the two tuning systems). Ultimately however, I wanted to spark enough interest in the viewer so that they would learn more about xenharmonics and its applications _on their own_ You're right in pointing out that this video could have went more in detail on certain aspects, but I also didn't want to drag it on for too long :)
A much better demonstration would be using ET14. Really, the first two chords you play at the beginning sound just awful, and the third chord, with the lower third, sounds closer to a just major triad than the supposedly equal tempered first chord.
1:31 Plus, for those people who think we start to count as 0, there is no zerost. But no sound is zero harmonics, so we do start to start at zero, even in harmonics. Let me rephrase that, if we have 0 harmonics, there isn't any sound emitting from that source. That is where we start to count the harmonics. Just like we have 0 apples, th en we add one and we have two. And we have the year 2000, we add one and we have the year 2001. Sorry. Petpeeve. It's also why in Europe the street floor in buildings is floor 0. Of course, what else?
There's great info in here but your very first major chord in the video already sounds weirdly "out of tune" to me. For one thing, the E on top sounds flat. I would have liked to hear an illustration with pitches that read more clearly, or acoustic sounds without vibrato. It might partly be the sort of Wurly-type electric piano sound, which might not be the best choice of timbre for illustration here. The pitches just sound kind of vague as to their exact location. Could be my ears, also, which are not what they used to be. I get that the "halfway" point is hard to define given that there's basically no such thing as the one correct place to put the major or minor third. anyway, I don't mean to be negative and thank you!
Thanks for the feedback! You're definitely not the only one to point out that something was off with the first three chords lol I think the fact that the sound was produced using a basic sine wave in conjunction with the fact that the keyboard was in 31-edo tuning contributed to the overall "bizarreness" of the chords at the beginning - so your ear was definitely correct!
@@MiiYooOfficial ah interesting, those didn't read to me as sine wave sounds. But there's gear and codecs and compression and who knows what else in between, of course. Not having perfect pitch, I also didn't realize those aren't the notated pitches, but that shouldn't really matter, of course.
I hate to be nit-picky, but I have perfect pitch and those B chords at the start being labeled as A chords kinda irked me. I know, I know, but someone’s gotta say it. Sorry :/ but eh. all that aside, great video! also now I FINALLY understand how to get to 31TET! thanks for the visual!
Haha no problem at all! Thanks for pointing this out :) I think another commenter also noticed this mistake, but hopefully you were still able to hear the differences between major, minor and neutral triads!
If you're a Musescore user, this plugin could be handy: github.com/euwbah/musescore-xen-tuner Scroll down for instructions on how to download and use it (keep in mind however that it's highly experimental and works best with Musescore 3.6 according to its developers)
I believe so - even in electrical engineering, we rarely refer to the fundamental frequency as anything other than simply the "fundamental frequency" From "Harmonic series (music)" on Wikipedia: "The fundamental is a harmonic because it is one times itself"
I probably made a mess in the section of comments held for review in your channel’s dashboard (if they are there and not completely gone). I’m very sorry because the filter just seemingly had it for me and I couldn’t post anything of use under @Shmityorshen ’s comment.
No problem at all! Sorry RUclips gave you such a hard time - as far as I can see, all of your comments were published (and none are held for review) so I'm not sure why that happened... That being said, I really appreciate all the comments you've left on this video! Thanks for contributing to a meaningful discussion :)
I don’t really see the point of creating a system that differentiates sharps and flats and then turning arminda and claiming that a 13 cent discrepancy is negligible. Whole eras of musical history have been defined by, and intellectual wars fought over, the ability to get pure thirds and fifths within a polytonal system. The ears can absolutely perceive a 13 cent difference when one of the two makers is a whole number ratio and one is not. Furthermore, it makes no sense to equivocate intervals across systems when they are actually different ratios. This video “yadda yaddas” the important bit here… that 31-edo can achieve purer intervals across different modulations in various keys and contexts. In fact, I’m not sure what the utility is in pointing out “super major” or other novel chords as distinct entities compared to 12-edo when all the other intervals change as well. The video points this out a bit, but I don’t think it’s negligible. A major chord in just, 12-edo, and 31-edo have different interval sets so it is not right to equivocate them.
Thanks for the insight! You're right in pointing out that the video does not go more in-depth on certain topics (and that it probably should've). My goal with this video was primarily to introduce microtonality to people who have only used the 12-edo system their whole lives and to encourage them to learn more about it. Thus, the parallels drawn between the 12-edo system and the 31-edo system are to provide viewers with a familiar baseline with which they can work with in order to grasp an introductory understanding of microtonal tuning systems.
There’s no “objectively natural” way to call chords of different edos (or even tunings in general) as belonging to the same bins but in practice people are often agreeing on many points. Despite even naming a set of notes as this or that chord is context-dependent, and naming intervals is also context-dependent, still there’s so much overlap that you can say there are only several choices that would be picked in the majority of real cases. So no, there are supermajor and subminor thirds, seconds, or tertial chords. There can be more or less gradation in how many bins are placed between something that’s considered a major third and something that’s considered a perfect fourth, but there is often a place for experiencing a “third” sound (based on our experience of working with thirds and other intervals, conditioned on how sophisticated we are) that is too wide for a major third by the listener’s standards and still not very fourth-ish. And when the listener is a composer or a theoretician, why bar the way to call that kind of third a separate kind? In theory, we do what’s convenient, and this happens to be convenient in many cases. I’ll remind that notions, attributions and gestalts that depend on context, don’t become inexistent because of that. Everything we describe with language depends on context. Music theory is very much context-dependent too, and I don’t see any news here. EDIT: Meantone (19- and 31-edo-ish), Pythagorean, 12edo have a range of major thirds (which one can define as going four fifths up, two octaves down, C→G→D→A→E in the chain of fifths) in ≈379…408¢, spanning ≈30¢. Compare that with a 17edo “major” third of 423.5¢ which is away ≈30¢ from the center of this span. It’s not negligible and so people can tend to classify meantone major thirds this way and sufficiently superpythagorean major thirds the other way despite they are formally major. And they rarely take a stance that all of those thirds are so unique as not to bundle them together in any way at all.
"Whole eras of musical history have been defined by, and intellectual wars faught over, the ability to get pure thirds and fifths within a polytonal system." Yeah and it was all a huge waste of time 🤣🤣🤣 Nevermind the complete non-existence of polytonality. It matters no at all whether a third is "pure" or not. It only matters to pseudoscientists. The brain doesn't care if a third is perfect, it doesn't matter. What actually matters is whether the third that comes after it is inconsistent when compared to the one that came prior. As the brain works by comparison, it's all relative. The ears can hear a 13 cent difference only with direct comparison. Otherwise there's absolutrly no change.
@@Whatismusic123 This isn’t true though, especially for harmony. There’s an effect known as “JI buzz” related to phase locking of two sounds with fundamentals differing by a sufficiently simple rational interval. When the interval is a bit off, phase difference slowly drifts and there is, well, phasing one can hear (with speed related obviously to the absolute frequency difference, not just an interval itself, but as human hearing range is small, we can translate frequency difference bounds into interval bounds). When an interval is too much off, we don’t perceive anything special anymore; likewise if the sounds we’re listening to don’t have sufficiently harmonic timbres (say, they’re detuned supersaws or a large acoustic ensemble playing in unison) then there will be no special effect. Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen in real life. Melodically it’s closer to what you describe but the threshold depends on how trained an ear is. 13¢ is totally hearable by a trained ear (not mine though, mine’s untrained). Maybe not for very wide intervals but still.
Yes, the _sound_ of a sus chord is considered neutral (or open). However, this video is using a different definition of neutral - i.e., the one used for classifying chords and intervals in microtonal tuning systems.
The first two chords you play the fifth is flat. So you're trying to invent a new theory of intonation? Maybe folks would be better off learning just to play an instrument and make it sound good. "He muddied the waters that they might appear more deep." - Nietzsche.
Now try playing it on a piano. Besides, I ponder over any practical use of that super-complicated theory. I don't think any classical or pop/rock musician will really bother using it, except those who like a lot of experimantation. By the way, A1 440 Hz is an "artificial" frequency, the actual, healthy frequency (and I mean healthy not just for music, but for our bodies) should be 432 Hz, in which case I am not sure if this neutral chord theory will still stand, bering in mind al the mathemaatics used here.
Interesting to know! I never heard before that the healthy frequency for A4 should be 432 Hz as opposed to 440 Hz. But if you're interested, here's a video of a piece played on a 31-edo keyboard exactly identical to the one used in this video: ruclips.net/video/wZ7rMsE1ia8/видео.html Additionally, there does exist software solutions to allow one to play in microtonal tuning systems (as long as you have a keyboard). Hardware solutions are also available (such as the Lumatone isomorphic keyboard) but if neither of these options appeal to you, various apps are at your disposition as well (such as Synth One by Audiokit).
@@MiiYooOfficial Thank you for your reply. The 432 Hz theory is not mine, of course, but I've read and seen some videos on how it positively affects our body's cells through harmonising vibrations, and apparently that was the original frequency instruments of old (very old?) were tuned to. Regarding the hardware or software solutions, thank you again, but I have never been a piano/keyboard player, I used to play the guitar, but firstly purely as an amateur, and secondly more than 20 years ago, so I honestly and definitely cannot say I am in any way, form or shape a musician. 🙂 But my love for music remains and that video was educational. Plus - not that I am great at maths, I rather suck at it - I am very interested in how music and maths, and music and trigonometry, work together, combine, and influence each other. Without going into esoteric issues too much, I believe the Universe was created through music and/or maths.
This super-complicated theory gets used by the same kind of people who moved on to other super-complicated theories. Polytonality, modal jazz, serialism, and microtonality are all experimental but all have their own dedicated composers. Diatonic tertiary harmony is palatable, so it's natural that pop music would use diatonic tertiary harmony. It's easy to sell, but doesn't offer the same harmonic (or melodic) languages that non-pop composers may want to express themselves with.
@@thelyricologist9568 "Super complicated theory" isn't really anymore - it's hinted at in the video, but really as presented it's just the plain ol' diatonic scale with a slightly adjusted relation between the sizes of the whole and half steps. 12edo itself is a "super complicated" version of a pentatonic scale anyway, why do we even bother with twelve when seven notes equally distributed will do fine? Even medieval instruments have experimented with systems adjacent to 31edo*. Obviously they never caught on, but it shows that they're not so hard that it'll take a computer to play it. In modern times, while a piano might be a big ask, two or three pianos tuned appropriately might be of use if you have four extra hands to play with. Or you can take a guitar and slip in a few extra frets. A violin doesn't need anything more than you getting a (literal) tune-up! Finally any mention of 432 Hz being "better for your body" is mostly incorrect, except for the poor singers that have to push their ranges higher and higher up over the years and hurting their voices in the process. The historical reference frequency has always varied between 400 and 450 Hz for various reasons, and I don't think any mention of "vibrations" benefiting or hurting the body can survive a collision with non-JI music anyway, which is basically all the music these days. * specifically, one instrument makes use of two sets of keyboards with 19 buttons for each octave, but the upper manual is tuned ~1\31 up from the lower one.
Bro Haha. Please don´t missinform the people who try to learn music. There is nothing like a neutral chord. Because a chord always delivers some kind of feeling, emotion, texture, etc. I am pretty sure that on an harmonic level, a sus2 or sus4 chord is way more neutral than a microtonal chord. This "neutral" chord has such a strong dissonance (in a good way), that it should never be considered neutral. My opinion on this.
Neutral isn't referring to the feeling of the chord, it's exactly in the middle of major and minor in pitch, so it's neutral. A major isn't called A happy either
You're right about the sus2 and sus4 chords sounding the most "neutral" though, those chords' ratios contain only prime factors up to 3, whereas major and minor contain 5, supermajor and subminor contain 7 and neutral contains 11. Every prime has a distinct characteristic sound
Chords and their forms have very little to do with the emotion conveyed. Instead, it’s all about *context*. Major chords can sometimes sound sad, angry, or even downright terrifying in the right context. Minor chords can sometimes sound happy or chill. The form of the chord doesn’t really matter as much as the context it is in. The terms “major” and “minor” just refer to the size of the interval between the third and root. That’s it. They have absolutely nothing to do with how the chord sounds. The names themselves quite literally mean “big” and “small” respectively. As such, calling a chord with a third between major and minor a “neutral chord” makes a ton of sense.
“Neutral third” and “neutral chord” have been in fact quite established terms for a long time now. It’s not ever a case of somebody inventing a term here.
The author of this video, It seems to me that you added 7 extra notes, that's why you got a 31-tone temperament, but in fact there are only 24 tones here: 1)C 2)C(Semisharp) 3)C(Sharp)/D(Flat) 4)D(Semiflat) 5)D 6)D(Semisharp) 7)D(Sharp)/E(Flat) 8)E(Semiflat) 9)E 10)E(Semisharp)/F(Semiflat) 11)F 12)F(Semisharp) 13)F(Sharp)/G(Flat) 14)G(Semiflat) 15)G 16)G(Semisharp) 17)G(Sharp)/A(Flat) 18)A(Semiflat) 19)A 20)A(Semisharp) 21)A(Sharp)/B(Flat) 22)B(Semiflat) 23)B 24)B(Semisharp)/C(Semiflat)
He mentioned that in this tuning system, notes that would usually be enharmonic equivalents (such as C# and Db being the same pitch) aren’t in the 31-tone temperament (C# is higher pitch than Db, and so on)
Pov you are a math genius but your parents want to play you a music instrument
Power Chord. There you go
Not really
@@justanfellowartist3255 yeah really
an octave. there you go. power chord is to powerful to be neutral
a power chord is just a root and a fifth, how is that related to microtones in any way?
@@thewaltner thats what i was thinking
I've just started experimenting with 24tet yesterday and 31tet definitely seems more useful for sounding "normal" and having the option to go outside that easily
Yeah, 31TET is completely different world from 12 and 24TET (which is basically leaving the notes of 12TET in place). Notes which are kinda similar are only 193.54 (5|31), 503.22(13|31), 696.77(18|31), 1006.45(26|31)
So "fretless" string instruments already perform this way? Fascinating vid from this Guy.
Interesting! Before we got to 31 TET here I was assuming the logical progression would be from 12 to 24 TET, but had no idea what that would sound like in comparison. The fifths sounded somehow a bit flat in the 31 TET example triads, but I guess that's just because the neutral/subminor/supermajor chords were already built on unfamiliar intervals.
Take *that* people with perfect pitch.
no
My friend on discord has microtonal perfect pitch and she is literally an ear god
@@originalname7176 the omnipotent musician
@@originalname7176 I want to talk to this person! I have absolute pitch in base-12, and I'm seeking to attain perfect pitch in base-16, and I have a system that can test pitch and interval recognition in 16-EDO. I seem to get an average of about 75% of them right. It's very difficult. I can quite easily discern intervals of 3/8 tones, but I get it wrong with half-diminished fourths / half-augmented thirds. The quarter tones are difficult, so I would love to find out how this person managed to attain that.
why does the major chord kinda sound like a supermajor... and the neutral chord sounds like a major chord...
Wolf fifth😂😂
Hey nice video! "sin" and "saj" seem pretty cool for subminor and supermajor, I wonder if they'll catch on more broadly.
seeing sin as subminor is just funny
like imagine someone tells you to play a ‘sin’ chord
how does one even go about writing music in different tuning systems, aside from manually writing out the pitches
Depending on what tuning system you're using, you can recycle the same letter notes from 12-edo but with additional accidentals - here's two ways you can notate the notes in 31-edo (the second one being the one I used in this video): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament#Scale_diagram
You can mess around with different tuning systems within Musescore. Check out my Chopin Waterfall Étude transcription for an example: ruclips.net/video/FO9ihziyL5c/видео.html
There's a lot of systems for microtonal notation, I'd say Sagittal is prolly the most versatile. Here's a wiki page on some of your options tho: en.xen.wiki/w/Musical_notation
Ok, waiting patiently for a song to be written with this
There are tons of songs in 31EDO
Also known as dead chords for having no emotional expression which is why it works well in heavy metal
The first set of chords is notated as being in A (major, minor, neutral), but is actually played in C (major, minor, neutral). That is a very noticeable difference even without my ability to hear differences as small as a schisma in certain parts of my hearing range.
Thanks for pointing this out! I think what happened is that I mistook the C note to be an A note as I was using a standard 12-note synthesizer but in 31-edo tuning. As a result, the "A note" on the keyboard is no longer an A note and was actually a C.
Either way, the first three chords still (hopefully) convey the differences between a major, minor and neutral chord all built with the same note as the root.
It’s actually a B major pitch.
@@portal6347 . . . Which being set to default to A415, I interpreted as C major (got to watch out for that).
Well structured video, the animations are reminiscent of 3Blue1Brown. Looks professional, and you know what you're talking about. I also appreciate the sources in your description. Unfortunate that it's all xenwiki, but I'm not sure there are really any other resources to use.
Two criticisms:
1. While you make it clear what a neutral triad is, which to be fair is the whole point of the video, you don't provide examples of how to use the triad. Sure, there are many other videos that show the musical context of neutral harmony. However, this is a high quality video that could be improved by including such an example.
2. At the end of the conclusion you suggest using microtonality for a composer that has "hit a writer's block". This video reads as an introduction to microtonality, particularly 31edo. I'd expect someone coming to this video to learn about microtones would not have much experience with microtones. So, the target audience is presumably inexperienced composers. More notes translating to more ideas might work for someone. But, I find that most people who can't get any ideas down lack the ability to formulate a basic idea, or to develop it. I feel like knowledge of developing ideas goes beyond tuning systems, so that's not a huge concern.
However, if you're struggling to form a basic idea, adding a huge amount of potential options is likely to be overwhelming. I know you don't explicitly say "write in 31edo if 12edo stumps you", but it's implied by the video. Microtonality does more consonant options, but there are also a significant number of dissonances offered. For someone composing by trial and error, i.e. someone who's just trying to find an idea that will stick, the increase in options isn't going to help.
The only reason I really think this is an issue is because more people getting frustrated at their inability to write music means less people writing music.
TL;DR - Moving to 31edo is a huge jump in complexity, and I think it would make the writer's block worse.
Regardless, great video.
If 12 tet stumps you, it means you're a bad composer and should study more
@@Whatismusic123 Blunt, but I can't argue with that. Studying how scales and different systems function is how I get my ideas.
Great video! Also great editing, very smooth animations
neutral chord sure is a sensation. Too bad we cant get that on a piano
Why not use 24tet instead of 31tet? It has a lot more divisors which means the octive can be split up into cleaner intervals
the number of divisors is actually not that important. 12tet has the divisors 1, 2, 3 ,4 ,6 ,12, but all that really means practically is that augmented and diminished chords hit the octave when stacked, and you have a whole-tone scale(which is actually just 6tet). 31 actually offers purer major and minor chords(closer to the basic ratios of 4:5:6 and 10:12:15) than 24tet does, meaning it is a better candidate. ALSO this is the same with supermajor and subminor chords (6:7:9 and 14:18:21), both being better approximated by 31tet. 24 may be more appealing because it reuses the notes from 12, but 31 can offer stronger consonance and concordance than 24 if you can get used to the sounds of new intervals. this video doesnt really give the whole picture of this because they use sine waves instead of a timbre with more harmonics. but with other timbres it is more clear, because the harmonics line up when you have better approximations of simple ratios.
that was a lot so i hope i wasnt too confusing.
I have an impression that having many divisors is even a bit counterproductive. I can’t quote my sources though.
@@abnormality00 31 tet isn't practical. The difference in "consonance" unhearable by the majority of people. It's only a conscious issue, A.K.A. a you problem.
24tet is an arbitrary tonal system in that the relation between tone didn’t based on an overtone series relationship. This leads to extreme harmonic density (aka dissonance) while negating the incorporation of higher harmonics. Feel free to use 24 tet but you’ll more easily be able to build upon the harmonic foundations of 12 tet by using a system such as 31,53,72 etc.
@@Whatismusic123 you’ve got to kidding me. It very easy to hear the difference in consonance between 31tet and 12tet.
Thank you for the explanation! I’d love to see more demonstrations of these chords! Specifically if you demonstrate one after the other it’s easier to notice the difference. So you could do c subminor c minor c neutral c major, c supermajor, that would be awesome. And you could do some of these slight changes with some other famous chords as well.
I know little about music theory (just a tiny bit of piano) but I found this fascinating. I'm always happy to learn new things
Whatever you're using to create that sine wave, sounds out of tune.
You should make a piece with the 31 edo system. I think it would be better to have it in practice. This video was immaculate. Thank you :)
Great video, what do you use for animations? Manim?
yep!
Nice video, and well explained. I definitely agree that some examples of the possibilities of 31-EDO would have been nice, but otherwise this is a great video.
Very interesting video, now I have to find out how to practice it by playing, perhaps I do have musical ideas that dont feel represented well enough.
My problem is that while I can conceptualize the chords I won't feel the effect of the sound without playing it on a keyboard or some other tool. Short of buying Lumatone, any recommendations? For example, if I already have an incredible keyboard do you know of any plugins or software that translates key tunings to microtonal? I'd love to be able to play these chords on my own digital piano to hear them myself in some capacity
Great question! I personally don't have a keyboard so what I use is this app called Synth One by AudioKit (it's what I used to synthesize the sounds for the chords heard in this video). Although it won't be the same as playing on a real keyboard, it will give you a feel for 31-edo (as well as other tuning systems).
If anyone else has any suggestions, please feel free to drop them here!
@@MiiYooOfficial I appreciate the heads up, Ill check it out!
I posted some links about tuning in actual software here but the comments ended up in limbo. Is there any hope of retrieving them back?
@@05degreesunfortunately no, youtube auto removes links to prevent spam. If you describe the link in alternative ways without using the literal link, that's the best way
@@Shmityorshen Yeah. It’s just on lesser-known channels the filtering often seems not turned on and the links go through, so yesterday I hoped it wouldn’t do that here and forgot to copy what I typed in before refreshing a page so I’ve lost two posts yesterday, the second being completely without links but I guess I was marked for a time as sus. Oh well. And I was too exhausted to retype it the third time. Now I written a bunch and again posted it, with no links, only for it to go away _again_. Ugh. I’m gonna try to post it in chunks and hope for the best.
The author of this video, It seems to me that you added 7 extra notes, that's why you got a 31-tone temperament, but in fact there are only 24 tones here:
1)C
2)C(Semisharp)
3)C(Sharp)/D(Flat)
4)D(Semiflat)
5)D
6)D(Semisharp)
7)D(Sharp)/E(Flat)
8)E(Semiflat)
9)E
10)E(Semisharp)/F(Semiflat)
11)F
12)F(Semisharp)
13)F(Sharp)/G(Flat)
14)G(Semiflat)
15)G
16)G(Semisharp)
17)G(Sharp)/A(Flat)
18)A(Semiflat)
19)A
20)A(Semisharp)
21)A(Sharp)/B(Flat)
22)B(Semiflat)
23)B
24)B(Semisharp)/C(Semiflat)
Great video, but who is the intended audience?
You explain in detail how tuning works - is it for people unfamiliar with music theory?
You don't provide any examples - is it for people already familiar with 31tet music?
You CTA composers to use 31TET to cure writer's block, but this video doesn't go into much detail about practical use of 31TET
Thanks for your input! The way I produced this video was to appeal to audiences who were already familiar with the 12-edo system and then use that to teach them 31-edo (hence the many parallels drawn between the two tuning systems). Ultimately however, I wanted to spark enough interest in the viewer so that they would learn more about xenharmonics and its applications _on their own_
You're right in pointing out that this video could have went more in detail on certain aspects, but I also didn't want to drag it on for too long :)
A much better demonstration would be using ET14. Really, the first two chords you play at the beginning sound just awful, and the third chord, with the lower third, sounds closer to a just major triad than the supposedly equal tempered first chord.
1:31 Plus, for those people who think we start to count as 0, there is no zerost. But no sound is zero harmonics, so we do start to start at zero, even in harmonics.
Let me rephrase that, if we have 0 harmonics, there isn't any sound emitting from that source. That is where we start to count the harmonics.
Just like we have 0 apples, th en we add one and we have two.
And we have the year 2000, we add one and we have the year 2001. Sorry. Petpeeve. It's also why in Europe the street floor in buildings is floor 0. Of course, what else?
Interesting. Did you use Manim for animations?
yep!
nice
There's great info in here but your very first major chord in the video already sounds weirdly "out of tune" to me. For one thing, the E on top sounds flat. I would have liked to hear an illustration with pitches that read more clearly, or acoustic sounds without vibrato.
It might partly be the sort of Wurly-type electric piano sound, which might not be the best choice of timbre for illustration here. The pitches just sound kind of vague as to their exact location. Could be my ears, also, which are not what they used to be.
I get that the "halfway" point is hard to define given that there's basically no such thing as the one correct place to put the major or minor third.
anyway, I don't mean to be negative and thank you!
Thanks for the feedback! You're definitely not the only one to point out that something was off with the first three chords lol
I think the fact that the sound was produced using a basic sine wave in conjunction with the fact that the keyboard was in 31-edo tuning contributed to the overall "bizarreness" of the chords at the beginning - so your ear was definitely correct!
@@MiiYooOfficial ah interesting, those didn't read to me as sine wave sounds. But there's gear and codecs and compression and who knows what else in between, of course.
Not having perfect pitch, I also didn't realize those aren't the notated pitches, but that shouldn't really matter, of course.
I hate to be nit-picky, but I have perfect pitch and those B chords at the start being labeled as A chords kinda irked me.
I know, I know, but someone’s gotta say it. Sorry :/
but eh. all that aside, great video!
also now I FINALLY understand how to get to 31TET! thanks for the visual!
Haha no problem at all! Thanks for pointing this out :)
I think another commenter also noticed this mistake, but hopefully you were still able to hear the differences between major, minor and neutral triads!
What is some good software for writing in 31 TET?
If you're a Musescore user, this plugin could be handy: github.com/euwbah/musescore-xen-tuner
Scroll down for instructions on how to download and use it (keep in mind however that it's highly experimental and works best with Musescore 3.6 according to its developers)
good video, but the sound levels of the speech and chords needs to be balanced, i barely heard the chords (viewing on phone)
Noted - thanks for the tip!
I love the neutral chord
Is this a difference between music and physics... I have never called the fundamental pitch the first harmonic.
I believe so - even in electrical engineering, we rarely refer to the fundamental frequency as anything other than simply the "fundamental frequency"
From "Harmonic series (music)" on Wikipedia: "The fundamental is a harmonic because it is one times itself"
Really well done vid - coherent script, discernable point, and good editing - I'll have to look into alternate tuning systems further!
Good video :)
I probably made a mess in the section of comments held for review in your channel’s dashboard (if they are there and not completely gone). I’m very sorry because the filter just seemingly had it for me and I couldn’t post anything of use under @Shmityorshen ’s comment.
No problem at all! Sorry RUclips gave you such a hard time - as far as I can see, all of your comments were published (and none are held for review) so I'm not sure why that happened...
That being said, I really appreciate all the comments you've left on this video! Thanks for contributing to a meaningful discussion :)
a good chord symbol for a neutral triad
C😫
Yes, but _The Acoustic Rabbit Hole_ would still tune it to A432hz.
I don’t really see the point of creating a system that differentiates sharps and flats and then turning arminda and claiming that a 13 cent discrepancy is negligible. Whole eras of musical history have been defined by, and intellectual wars fought over, the ability to get pure thirds and fifths within a polytonal system. The ears can absolutely perceive a 13 cent difference when one of the two makers is a whole number ratio and one is not.
Furthermore, it makes no sense to equivocate intervals across systems when they are actually different ratios. This video “yadda yaddas” the important bit here… that 31-edo can achieve purer intervals across different modulations in various keys and contexts. In fact, I’m not sure what the utility is in pointing out “super major” or other novel chords as distinct entities compared to 12-edo when all the other intervals change as well. The video points this out a bit, but I don’t think it’s negligible. A major chord in just, 12-edo, and 31-edo have different interval sets so it is not right to equivocate them.
Thanks for the insight! You're right in pointing out that the video does not go more in-depth on certain topics (and that it probably should've).
My goal with this video was primarily to introduce microtonality to people who have only used the 12-edo system their whole lives and to encourage them to learn more about it. Thus, the parallels drawn between the 12-edo system and the 31-edo system are to provide viewers with a familiar baseline with which they can work with in order to grasp an introductory understanding of microtonal tuning systems.
There’s no “objectively natural” way to call chords of different edos (or even tunings in general) as belonging to the same bins but in practice people are often agreeing on many points. Despite even naming a set of notes as this or that chord is context-dependent, and naming intervals is also context-dependent, still there’s so much overlap that you can say there are only several choices that would be picked in the majority of real cases.
So no, there are supermajor and subminor thirds, seconds, or tertial chords. There can be more or less gradation in how many bins are placed between something that’s considered a major third and something that’s considered a perfect fourth, but there is often a place for experiencing a “third” sound (based on our experience of working with thirds and other intervals, conditioned on how sophisticated we are) that is too wide for a major third by the listener’s standards and still not very fourth-ish. And when the listener is a composer or a theoretician, why bar the way to call that kind of third a separate kind? In theory, we do what’s convenient, and this happens to be convenient in many cases.
I’ll remind that notions, attributions and gestalts that depend on context, don’t become inexistent because of that. Everything we describe with language depends on context. Music theory is very much context-dependent too, and I don’t see any news here.
EDIT: Meantone (19- and 31-edo-ish), Pythagorean, 12edo have a range of major thirds (which one can define as going four fifths up, two octaves down, C→G→D→A→E in the chain of fifths) in ≈379…408¢, spanning ≈30¢. Compare that with a 17edo “major” third of 423.5¢ which is away ≈30¢ from the center of this span. It’s not negligible and so people can tend to classify meantone major thirds this way and sufficiently superpythagorean major thirds the other way despite they are formally major. And they rarely take a stance that all of those thirds are so unique as not to bundle them together in any way at all.
"Whole eras of musical history have been defined by, and intellectual wars faught over, the ability to get pure thirds and fifths within a polytonal system."
Yeah and it was all a huge waste of time 🤣🤣🤣
Nevermind the complete non-existence of polytonality. It matters no at all whether a third is "pure" or not. It only matters to pseudoscientists. The brain doesn't care if a third is perfect, it doesn't matter. What actually matters is whether the third that comes after it is inconsistent when compared to the one that came prior. As the brain works by comparison, it's all relative.
The ears can hear a 13 cent difference only with direct comparison. Otherwise there's absolutrly no change.
@@Whatismusic123 This isn’t true though, especially for harmony. There’s an effect known as “JI buzz” related to phase locking of two sounds with fundamentals differing by a sufficiently simple rational interval. When the interval is a bit off, phase difference slowly drifts and there is, well, phasing one can hear (with speed related obviously to the absolute frequency difference, not just an interval itself, but as human hearing range is small, we can translate frequency difference bounds into interval bounds). When an interval is too much off, we don’t perceive anything special anymore; likewise if the sounds we’re listening to don’t have sufficiently harmonic timbres (say, they’re detuned supersaws or a large acoustic ensemble playing in unison) then there will be no special effect. Which doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen in real life.
Melodically it’s closer to what you describe but the threshold depends on how trained an ear is. 13¢ is totally hearable by a trained ear (not mine though, mine’s untrained). Maybe not for very wide intervals but still.
🤯
ear
Iv got tat
Isn't a sus chord neutral?
Yes, the _sound_ of a sus chord is considered neutral (or open). However, this video is using a different definition of neutral - i.e., the one used for classifying chords and intervals in microtonal tuning systems.
Rubbish! 12 tone system is fine! A neutral chord consists of just tonic and dominant notes, without mediant note.
That's just a power chord.
Bangs head against desk.
Tf
Sus 2 chords better
The first two chords you play the fifth is flat. So you're trying to invent a new theory of intonation? Maybe folks would be better off learning just to play an instrument and make it sound good. "He muddied the waters that they might appear more deep." - Nietzsche.
Just hearing the 31-interval scale makes it sound out of tune
Major and minor chords are more in tune in 31 than 12
Words, words, names, signs, numbers... if good music was made this way, there would be good music being made every day...
Now try playing it on a piano. Besides, I ponder over any practical use of that super-complicated theory. I don't think any classical or pop/rock musician will really bother using it, except those who like a lot of experimantation. By the way, A1 440 Hz is an "artificial" frequency, the actual, healthy frequency (and I mean healthy not just for music, but for our bodies) should be 432 Hz, in which case I am not sure if this neutral chord theory will still stand, bering in mind al the mathemaatics used here.
Interesting to know! I never heard before that the healthy frequency for A4 should be 432 Hz as opposed to 440 Hz.
But if you're interested, here's a video of a piece played on a 31-edo keyboard exactly identical to the one used in this video: ruclips.net/video/wZ7rMsE1ia8/видео.html
Additionally, there does exist software solutions to allow one to play in microtonal tuning systems (as long as you have a keyboard). Hardware solutions are also available (such as the Lumatone isomorphic keyboard) but if neither of these options appeal to you, various apps are at your disposition as well (such as Synth One by Audiokit).
@@MiiYooOfficial Thank you for your reply. The 432 Hz theory is not mine, of course, but I've read and seen some videos on how it positively affects our body's cells through harmonising vibrations, and apparently that was the original frequency instruments of old (very old?) were tuned to.
Regarding the hardware or software solutions, thank you again, but I have never been a piano/keyboard player, I used to play the guitar, but firstly purely as an amateur, and secondly more than 20 years ago, so I honestly and definitely cannot say I am in any way, form or shape a musician. 🙂 But my love for music remains and that video was educational. Plus - not that I am great at maths, I rather suck at it - I am very interested in how music and maths, and music and trigonometry, work together, combine, and influence each other. Without going into esoteric issues too much, I believe the Universe was created through music and/or maths.
@@thelyricologist9568 the 432hz theory is pseudoscientific and changing tuning has no real effect on our bodies.
This super-complicated theory gets used by the same kind of people who moved on to other super-complicated theories. Polytonality, modal jazz, serialism, and microtonality are all experimental but all have their own dedicated composers.
Diatonic tertiary harmony is palatable, so it's natural that pop music would use diatonic tertiary harmony. It's easy to sell, but doesn't offer the same harmonic (or melodic) languages that non-pop composers may want to express themselves with.
@@thelyricologist9568 "Super complicated theory" isn't really anymore - it's hinted at in the video, but really as presented it's just the plain ol' diatonic scale with a slightly adjusted relation between the sizes of the whole and half steps. 12edo itself is a "super complicated" version of a pentatonic scale anyway, why do we even bother with twelve when seven notes equally distributed will do fine?
Even medieval instruments have experimented with systems adjacent to 31edo*. Obviously they never caught on, but it shows that they're not so hard that it'll take a computer to play it. In modern times, while a piano might be a big ask, two or three pianos tuned appropriately might be of use if you have four extra hands to play with. Or you can take a guitar and slip in a few extra frets. A violin doesn't need anything more than you getting a (literal) tune-up!
Finally any mention of 432 Hz being "better for your body" is mostly incorrect, except for the poor singers that have to push their ranges higher and higher up over the years and hurting their voices in the process. The historical reference frequency has always varied between 400 and 450 Hz for various reasons, and I don't think any mention of "vibrations" benefiting or hurting the body can survive a collision with non-JI music anyway, which is basically all the music these days.
* specifically, one instrument makes use of two sets of keyboards with 19 buttons for each octave, but the upper manual is tuned ~1\31 up from the lower one.
Believe in Jesus Christ, trust in Him for your eternal salvation and repent of your sins!
are you mormon or something
And tune to A432hz Scientific Pitch. The forbidden tuning.
@@Acoustic-Rabbit-Holeokay now THATS too far
@@noahshighlightreel But even God would agree, it's Nature's Way... ruclips.net/video/DssbYI-B9l0/видео.html
Is being an atheist a sin?
It just sounds like an out of tune a major chord.
Because our tune system has flaws.
Shut up westernhead. You're so goddamn tone-blind it's not funny.
Neutral chord is a minor chord for pretentious people
bestie ur the pretentious one, sorry!💕
And yet you use the neutral chord in your 24edo kyrie.
@@TristinBailey I literally didn't, but the above comment is called a joke.
That sounds minor to you? You tone deaf fuck?
music, as done by the pronoun people, or music made fluid and non-binary.
what utter, utter bollocks.
Stop math, Music is A Lot More.
What do you mean ?
Music wouldn't exist without physics and physics would not exist without math. Math is the foundation of our universe.
Bro Haha. Please don´t missinform the people who try to learn music. There is nothing like a neutral chord. Because a chord always delivers some kind of feeling, emotion, texture, etc. I am pretty sure that on an harmonic level, a sus2 or sus4 chord is way more neutral than a microtonal chord. This "neutral" chord has such a strong dissonance (in a good way), that it should never be considered neutral. My opinion on this.
Neutral isn't referring to the feeling of the chord, it's exactly in the middle of major and minor in pitch, so it's neutral. A major isn't called A happy either
You're right about the sus2 and sus4 chords sounding the most "neutral" though, those chords' ratios contain only prime factors up to 3, whereas major and minor contain 5, supermajor and subminor contain 7 and neutral contains 11. Every prime has a distinct characteristic sound
Chords and their forms have very little to do with the emotion conveyed. Instead, it’s all about *context*.
Major chords can sometimes sound sad, angry, or even downright terrifying in the right context. Minor chords can sometimes sound happy or chill. The form of the chord doesn’t really matter as much as the context it is in.
The terms “major” and “minor” just refer to the size of the interval between the third and root. That’s it. They have absolutely nothing to do with how the chord sounds. The names themselves quite literally mean “big” and “small” respectively.
As such, calling a chord with a third between major and minor a “neutral chord” makes a ton of sense.
This isn't misinformation at all? It's just an expansion, additional information.
“Neutral third” and “neutral chord” have been in fact quite established terms for a long time now. It’s not ever a case of somebody inventing a term here.
The author of this video, It seems to me that you added 7 extra notes, that's why you got a 31-tone temperament, but in fact there are only 24 tones here:
1)C
2)C(Semisharp)
3)C(Sharp)/D(Flat)
4)D(Semiflat)
5)D
6)D(Semisharp)
7)D(Sharp)/E(Flat)
8)E(Semiflat)
9)E
10)E(Semisharp)/F(Semiflat)
11)F
12)F(Semisharp)
13)F(Sharp)/G(Flat)
14)G(Semiflat)
15)G
16)G(Semisharp)
17)G(Sharp)/A(Flat)
18)A(Semiflat)
19)A
20)A(Semisharp)
21)A(Sharp)/B(Flat)
22)B(Semiflat)
23)B
24)B(Semisharp)/C(Semiflat)
He mentioned that in this tuning system, notes that would usually be enharmonic equivalents (such as C# and Db being the same pitch) aren’t in the 31-tone temperament (C# is higher pitch than Db, and so on)