HURRY THE EXHAUST FAN IS NOT WORKING
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- Опубликовано: 30 мар 2024
- They were panicked that their exhaust was down, but they don't do any routine maintenance.....
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I’ve had phone calls from potential new customers who say “I’ve called 4 companies about (whatever), first one here gets the job. My stock answer is “good luck” and hang up on them.
I'd try to go but charge them if I didn't get there first. My job starts when I leave 🤷♂️
What bothers me the most is that your client called multiple vendors, and started a virtual horse race. If one of our clients did that, I would “file that info away” so, if there’s a next time for a request from this same client, and we’re slammed and if we have to make a client A / client B decision…..
Great video as always Chris, leaving the camera running like that next to you while you were working felt like we are there with you and just chatting away as you were working.
Im glad you enjoyed it
Me too, that was great. Now if one of those direct drive fans that I got the motor dies, I'll know how to replace it. I still think it's not too bad at all, I've found it's easier to get those taper bushings apart than fight with getting a belt pulley off of a motor. That didn't look like any more work than replacing like a common 1.5 hp single phase 1750 rpm motor, there's still 4 motor mounting bolts, with nuts and washers, and the belt tensioner mechanism to deal with, and connecting the wiring to a multi-voltage single phase motor in the tiny cramped space they give you isn't much fun either.
The longer videos with more of the work shown is actually a good option. These are training videos for your personnel, even if you post them to RUclips for the general public as well. Happy Easter, Chris
Thanks and Happy Easter to you as well
I usually have alot of wtf talking to myself moments when I'm working on a piece of equipment I'm not familiar with 😂😂
the shaft sticking out the back lets you put a tachometer on the shaft and get a speed measurement, (at least when it's working properly)
great point I didn't think of that but it totally makes sense
@@HVACRVIDEOS I had a little laugh when you said you were going to check the speed of the old one. wrong speed was the main problem.
@@jonleiend1381The varigreen controllers are 0-10 V to set the motor speed so a DC multimeter should be able to provide a measurement.
Why would you use an EMC motor on a exhaust fan ? Speed based on what ?
As always great video !
@@georgebrabec1749 speed gets adjusted for air pressure balance reasons, bad air balance means doors will not behave.
classic belt driven blowers have a pulley that is adjustable letting an air balance tech change the effective ratio of the belt.
In this case the motor itself can be adjusted to run at different speeds to pull more or less air out of that duct.
I really appreciate it when you go into detail like you did here. I think that's incredibly useful for the younger guys.
I design HVAC systems and since watching your videos with the repeat comments about ECM motor scarcity I've been specifying belt drive for kitchen projects and spreading the word with other engineers. The OA requirements dwarf any small energy savings for ECM motors in this environment and shutting down a kitchen is not good. Usually if it's a longer cooking line I'll have a fan for each hood section if its long enough to need that to leave a bit of redundant operations possible. 16' is the cutoff where you get extra sections from what I know.
Chris, Seen the exact symptoms you saw here. The bearing seals are failing and allowing grease vapor into the bearings and the grease is baking onto the bearing balls and locking up the rotor.
Short term for temporary operation is to oil the crap out of the bearings at both ends with Kroil. That busts up the baked grease and will buy you up to a month or a bit more. Zoom Spout oil works too but Kroil works better.
That vfd beside soft start is uselles and 2-3x expensive on this aplication, having in mind that is max out. You can put there whatever just check power and rpm.
Best dressed repair person I've ever seen!! Good video!
To be honest with the shaft that's sticking out of the back of the motor it looks almost like there should be some sort of fan cooling the heat sink of the e. CM or Esc electronic speed control for the brushless motor it's actually A. D c motor of permanent magnets
What kind of roof curb is that? I’d be careful walking on that. Wind up in the kitchen.
It's just a grease catcher,lays on the roof
Yeah that was my thought when I first saw that,
@@MikeB9771 oh so that’s what it is I asked that in a different comment so how exactly does it work
If any grease spills out of the fan it absorbs it until the cleaners can get there
@@HVACRVIDEOS oh I guess those aren’t very common this is the only exhaust fan video that I have seen one
1:18 that's normal, looks like a Greenheck motor, and it's one of those electronic ones with the potentiometer attached to it.......they're situation specific from my experience and that's a harsh situation that one's been placed in, probably not gonna last that long in that environment
There is nothing wrong with direct driven fans (they should be threephase instead of ECM on a hot roof, but OK, it is what it is), supply house issues with stocking a few motors can't be an excuse for legacy assemblys with belts. The supply houses should get in touch with 2024 and not stay sticking to the 1980s...
The underlaying main problem is more likely the customers who don't want to spend money (or worse "I have someone doing the job cheaper than your quote") and so the manufacturers need to step down in quality to sell their products.
If the customer would spend roughly 40% more, there would be an opportunity to size up the bearings, motors and even the whole device so they don't operate at the maximum load which would reduce wear and tear significantly. They could even invent motor brackets not swinging around like a ponytail, these could be sturdy as a rock with only a few bucks more for production costs. But this needs two/three things:
- customers willing to pay the initial higher costs for quality (in the end it would be cheaper because the appliances last longer or won't need servie that often)
- companys not being greedy and pinching every penny possible to max out profit which ruins the company in the long run
-installers who don't get stuck in the "good old times"
No these particular motors have to be programmed before their sold (or so im told) so they cant stock them at local supply houses unless they had access to their programming tool
It’s easier and more cost effective to just have power pack sent in. I have seen that direct drive motor get completely locked up with the blower wheel. I would tell them we are running with the fan bypassed until the power pack comes in. Takes 30 minutes to change the power pack (motor,wheel, and the set piece). Trying to change just the motor may turn into an entire days worth of work. Salute man. I would’ve had to order the new power pack. I’ve got F’d over trying to change that dumb little ecm motor lol.
For what its worth, the Varigreen motors do have a lot of parameters built in but the only user input needed is a 0-10V DC signal set with the knob. There should be a molex where the potentiometer position or control voltage can be read. Theoretically any ECM that has that adjustability should be able to swap in if it fit. Cook also uses the same 0-10V on their ECM motors. It _should_ otherwise be a normal NEMA size motor
Un súper trabajo Chris y muy agradable escucharte, no se inglés pero le pongo en traductor cuando se puede.
Saludos para todos ustedes desde Coacalco Edo de México.
I guess I have been watching your videos for „too long“😂. The moment the AC/Condensing unit kicked in my mind was like: „Uff that unit sounds rough. Sounds a little bit like refrigerant is missing or one or more of the panels are missing.
Great video as always.
Thanks
lets be fair chris, that you cant get the motor at a local supply house is not the fault of it being a modern EC motor but simply supply houses not stocking it. dont blame the modern and/or "fancy" stuff just because the supply house is stuck in the 90's. blame the supply houses, not the parts.
ps: you can replace the bearings in these motors pretty easy.
the motors are programmed by the factory so you cant stock them for that reason, unless supply houses had access to their programming tool...
Another great video Chris. Happy Easter.
you know it's a good day when Chris uploads.
Sometime I got a bad day I'll watch his channel just to hear his voice and some frustration making me happy again. It just like back in navy knowing another person is having a bad day too making me feel like I'm not alone.
Imagine the manager comes up on the roof to check up on Chris and doesn’t see the camera and sees him talking to himself and think what the heck is this guy doing? Ha ha ha ha JK. 😂
Great Fix because GOD knows they need the Exhaust Out of the Kitchen. 👍🙏
I enjoy your long videos I get the big picture on how you trouble shoot the problem
Perfect 👍 thanks
Definitely understand not cleaning the grease. Me personally, I would have atleast a chisel to scrape most off as I wouldn’t want another company that’s not specifically an HVAC one taking fans apart and stuff. I feel like they would end up reversing some good work you put in to make sure that fan operates as best it can
love the videos.
Great Video. Thank you for sharing
Thanks for watching
I feel like my left brain and right brain don't get along naturally. So, they have to talk, and work things out together in the open in what most look like insanity to people who don't experience this. After 40 some odd years of being alive I've realized the best thing to do is just let it happen. Right there with ya, man.
Good job Chris, Happy Easter too you and your family.
Direct drive motor seems like it's a lot simpler mechanically, and basically maintenance free (no belts to change or tighten). There's also no pulleys to have to align, and no speed to potentially get wrong when changing pulleys. Seems better to me, no? I guess just the fact that the motors arent in all the supply houses yet is the only reason you dont like them?
Yeah. Seems like this is the direction things will head because it’s less material. Less to break. Less to buy. And ECM motors use less copper than PSC motors so with copper high in price now I figure we’ll see more and more of them. It’s nice they use less power too. There sho7ld be a standard for motors and programming them. The same motor can run many different speeds. Part of why they can be direct drive. Just work it out so you don’t have to stock 50 different motors just because the speed programming is different. Make a standard way to program it and sell the techs a device to download the programming to it.
The problem appears to be, not designing the motor or controller for harsh environments.
Keep up the good work man love your videos
Thanks, Ill do my best
Chris, I really like your new intro!!! Keep up the great work!!!
Waffle House mtx here. Just dealt w Greenheck they also told me can not get power pack had to order motor, motor plate, cushioners and wheel separately. About $1800 total.
Not sure I'd be too fond of that grease catcher curb thing around the fan. I'd be worried that I'd catch a boot on those straps and end up sprawled across the roof.
What's that framed in...Thing that the exhaust fan is surrounded by?
good job chris at least that was not like the one you had a few years ago where you had to change the whole fan cause you could not get the wheel off
How much CFM are these fans on maximum speed
I’m with you a plain old belt drive motor would be way simpler but direct drive is a few less working parts. But they should make sure this type of motor is available locally
Yeah, it is a parts availability issue not a design issue.
We run into a lot of these fans. Started stocking a spare power pack. Also have had issues with the rubber bushings in that plate wearing down causing the motor to bounce around.
22:55 in Germany they say „after being tight comes being off.“.
Kinda small thing, but i like how you dress professionally, i know your job can be dirty but the fact your looking smart gives a powerful impression of your own standards. 👍
I have a feeling that I look homeless in the summer. 😂🤣😂🤣
Happy Easter
Hey you can get the whole assamble at parts town next day air, i changed a few of those before
I would get the SC680 I like swiveling the clamp to see the reading if I have the meter at eye level.
You could bypass pwm and run it at full power. But then you may make less money, lol. We use Captiveair the motor and fan are larger. I'm starting to change those out to regular 120V single speed motor because Captiveair is sooo expensive and I don't need 208V variable speed. It's just an extra expense that's not being use.
Nice idea but it's an ECM, they don't work that way.
Loved the video, Chris. I actually felt it could have been a bit longer. It may have been just an 'exhaust fan video' for some people but I know that if it's one of your videos there is always something interesting in it, particularly if it sounds simple but it's a longer video. It's something I look for. Some 'content creators' just seem to rattle on or there's a lot of 'dead air', but that's never the case with you.
A couple of things stood out to me, aside from your usual attention to detail. One was the pages in the manual showing the wiring diagram. This had detail of the method of control which in this case was 0-10VDC. This suggests to me that it should be possible to determine a faulty speed regulator by injecting a 0-10V signal of your own, or checking for the exact value with your multimeter. If you use a multimeter to measure the control voltage before taking such a fan apart, this could then be used to set the exact control voltage and therefore the speed on the new motor.
I also found it interesting that the blower wheel is configured as a backward-bladed, rather than the more common forward-bladed configuration commonly used in HVAC applications. This makes sense from the perspective of such a configuration having a broader efficiency over a wide speed range, compared with the narrow efficiency peak when forward-bladed. It will be interesting to see if the broader efficiency curve of backward-bladed blower wheels results in them becoming more common as more blowers are driven at a wider range of speeds, either through the use of a VFD or ECM. Thanks for posting a video with enough information to spot this.
Looks like you're walking around on a old sky light roof opening where the exhaust fan is😮
Pour some oil on the shaft and that's it. Better yet, grease. 4:01
Looks like all customers needs today stock their own special spare parts? Hope they have a few exhaust fans that share these motors. Chain restaurants maybe can have their own shared stock.
My problem with your motor availability discussion. If they are actually mission critical they should have a spare on site.
It’s seems strange for a couple $100 buck part they risk the whole business on some other place having it in stock.
are the green exhuast fan modules more reliable then these cup shaped ones
What is the metal box and mesh or fabric that is surrounding this vent? Is it for grease?
The Hell of this, is they are going to become more and more frequent because of one thing: less power consumed. But it could barely fight its way out of a paper bag from how easily you broke it loose. And you are correct in stocking replacement motors, the parts houses need to. And you I think, need to study up on the controllers to change it to be more aggressive on startups.
glad to see these videos where the work done is shown. i really like that. you always have great videos and showing the work being done is next level awesome. i work for an HVAC company in the pacific northwest but i'm in the IT department. i hear all the time we struggle with getting product or keeping inventory in stock to ship. it is frustrating all the way around.
Grasias my friend for sharing your knowledge
We use those units here at McDonald’s and usually we replace the motor thinks when fail
What’s the thing around the fan for
Grease diaper. I was wondering what that was.
Nice Hammer 😅
Might be my OCD, but I would of had to clean that grease off before putting on new motor and fan back on. That is nasty!
ECM motors have MOSFET transistors. They need heat sinks. That motor has what appears to be heat sink fins.
The MOSFET transistors will blow up if lightning strikes anywhere on Earth. I prefer PSC motors. Lightning can strike only a few feet away from a PSC motor and it will still be just fine.
Great video
Thanks bud
What is he stepping on? Looks like it could get nasty with grease.
It was an absorbent grease pad, but there was no grease in it
The pad is there if the grease pan over flows on fan it will drip on the pad not the roof. Preventing slips, falls, and the acid in the grease from eating the roof membrane out causing roof leaks from rain and the warranty on the roof from roof contractor.
I talk to my Self to when I’m working
Awesome video Chris! 👍🏻
Thanks bud
Are there not fire codes that require keeping grease out of the hood system? Or removing it periodically?
For startup there's usually some sort of inspection for fire code compliance, but after that maintaining the fan is up to the owner. Unfortunately a lot of smaller places don't do preventative maintenance so when there is a problem their fan is broke and their kitchen is closed.
I want to join with you as a technician if you need bro
College trained engineers (especially ones from other countries) can always defeat logical mechanics of any experience level.
I think you have to go back to this customer.
You forgot to mount the short earth cable that was between the motor and the frame.
(It rotated around the bolt)
Now the frame isn't properly earthed.
You need a little stool. That cinderblock looks uncomfortable. Or the classic 5 gallon bucket haul stuff and then turn into a stool
Happy Easter Chris. That spot where you were standing while doing the removal looked soft and sketchy.
I was wondering about that. I think it's a giant PIG mat diaper for the exhaust fan to catch grease, but also looks like a fine tripping hazard in its own right.
@@anyheck There is a company that sells those sorts of trays for catching grease, but since the fan already has a 1 gallon grease container that really shouldn't be necessary other than having a redundancy in place.
What's the spongy roofing surrounding the fan???
Probably an additional grease absorber, given their lack of grease cleaning on the fan I wouldn't be surprised if they experience overflow of their 1 gallon grease box often.
Next time offer them a drop-in replacement from another brand where you can buy these parts off the shelf: replacement costs this much and can be installed today, while OEM part comes in a week or two, but is half as expensive.
The EC motors are more efficient and a soft start reduces instantaneous loading both electrically and mechanically which saves wear and reduces stress. The problem is that this implementation is relatively new and may have been rushed to meet legislation, which is never good,. The high price doesn't help as it puts buyers off using them which slows down economies of scale.
It's not the fault of electronic commutation which has been around successfully for decades now in various forms. One common example is the DC computer fan. A less obvious example, perhaps, is the stepper motor although the commutation here is provided externally from the motor.
An ECM is nothing more than a switch-mode power supply, variable frequency drive and a three-phase motor combined into a single unit. As with all modern digital electronics, the cooler you can run them the better the reliability and the longer the lifetime.
One of the most common failures is the filtering capacitors on the output on the power supply as these are run at a high frequency, at a high voltage and current and therefore have an extremely hard life. As there are numerous grades (qualities) of electronic components it is easy for a substitution of particular components to occur to increase profits at the cost of reliability. This is before even considering the problem of counterfeit components, which even well-known suppliers can be a victim of as the fake parts can be difficult to spot.
Thought you said not to wear headphones on the roof lol
Are you referring to my AirPods? If you are they are in transparency mode so I can hear everything around me. I only use them when I get phone calls
There's a fan somewhere in the background with a bearing that's going out
@ 33:18 if the electronic board of the motor is powered by a polyester capacitor then it is probably decalibrated; and if the electronic board of the engine has an electronic PWM type of power supply , then I expect the electrolytic capacitor to be decalibrated (if they didn't use ceramics) from the power supply of the PWM driver of the electronic board 😜 ... but maybe it's something else entirely😅😊
Exactly
odd that the old motor at full speed was 4 amps but the new one was at 7?
Not really. A partial failure of the electronics would result in an inability to function properly. It's likely that the electronics couldn't drive the motor properly resulting in lower current draw and a blower not running at proper speed. If you listen to the old and new motors running there is a very marked difference in the sound of the airflow.
ECM motors are terrible. On furnaces, the cost of an ECM compared to a PSC, the ECM motor is somewhere around ten times more expensive. Where is the savings when the replacement cost is so huge. Companies and (Gov't) claim they run cheaper, but all that goes out the window when replacement is needed. What did that motor cost the customer? Thanks for the video.
And now with the DOE and California coming out with new efficiency standards it's going to drive a lot of fans to ECM or simply upsizing what you used to get in order to comply with FEI regulations.
Love the music on the intro!
👍🏿
In those weird ec motors, if the bearing fails faster and easier to replace the bearings
Too much of a liability to replace the bearings.....
This is understandable. As i’ve seen in the vid, the damage to the motor has already done. I had more luck with iec frame 3ph motors
Did you misspeak when you said CaptiveAire and Accurex are the same? Because I don’t think they are. Greenheck and Accurex are though.
Yeah it’s Greenheck and Accurex… I didn’t even realize I said that
Looks very technician unfriendly
Chris, would it be wise to get the old motor rebuilt and kept in your truck/shop for the next time as an emergency backup? Or are these ECM types so rare it's not worth it?
Easily a bearing issue...
The same problem all over
62 thumbs up
If i had a nickel for every exhaust fan pm/call, i could buy a pack of smokes in NY.. direct drive motors are not dumb, belt drives are. There are a million reasons why, but parasitic loss, potential over amping, and those 3 extra parts (2 shaeves and one belt) for wearing... You need better parts vendors if you can't find them same day/overnight.
I see you went to the _dark side_ , with your watch. What happened to your Samsung watch?
I gave all my Samsung stuff to a buddy
@@HVACRVIDEOSboooooooooo! You're an iSheep now. 🤣🤣
I saw him using an iPad with measure quick too. It’s all good as long as it works for you. I did like some of his android watches. In the early days of android watches they were mostly ugly but Chris seems to have had some good looking ones.
@@stevebollinger3463I despise Apple, for their long time evil behaviour and their super closed ecosystem.
It's taken the EU to break it open, and even _then_ , it's not fully open, and probably won't ever be.
Also, Steve Jobs was a total asshole to his daughter Lisa. He also called Android "stolen" (though, Google bought it), then said Apple was 'shameless about stealing other's ideas." Jobs was a hypocrite.
I've been thinking lately, what would have happened, if Microsoft hadn't bailed Apple out in the early 1990s, with that $500 million deal?
Why not take fan out and put a few drops of oil on both top and bottom bearings or the shaft so that it will lubricate bearings???
The cooler seems to be oversized and short cycle
Why do you say that?
@@HVACRVIDEOS The cooler that near you, it seems that startup and shutdown shortly
🙌👍👌😊🍀🙏
Maaan you working Mcd too much! I pull those and replace the entire unit with belt drive they can afford it
That looks like an ECM motor not a PSC.
Yes it’s an ec motor
Next time tell them they have to have the whole power pack brotha. Greenheck has em in stock. I’m in Tennessee. Can never get the “motor” but can always have the power pack overnighted. Crazy man.
Yeah I knew they made them, I asked my distributor and he said they weren’t available
Missing an S on the thumbnail chief
Ha ha good catch
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