@@heythereguysitsMetro I love how all these people come out of the woodwork after this announcement and basically expose themselves as leavers lol. Always something to the effect of "YOu eXpeCt mE tO STaY wIth PlAYers tHat Do tAnK dAMagE?" Same old tired excuse that they tell themselves to try and excuse their garbage personalities and attitudes. Here's hoping that blizzard actually starts handing out bans to these chumps but its Blizzard so I ain't gonna hold my breath.
@@manuelaidos Metro is one of the few streamers who call out this stuff. He’s the anti Asmongold. If you join a pug you have the opportunity to leave before the group starts-inspect other players and their achievements if you’re that concerned. Otherwise, go with the group and you all succeed or fail together
Just the fear of potentially getting banned will make people less likely too leave, which is a good thing. You sign up to GROUP content it can't just be me me me mentality all the time.
No, people just won't pug with ANYONE from certain servers with a poor reputation. Leavers don't impact M+ at all, only pugs, who don't matter. Every issue this moron brings up is solved by making your own static. He just isn't good enough to get into one so he cries on YT to other dipshits like himself for confirmation bias.
.. typical us mindset . The the play should have a popup that tell him or her If You leave you are banned and the player must type the word I agree and enter
@@asdfqwerty-u9n you agree to such termns when loading the game for the first time or after a long while. just stop being a dick, nothing hard about it.
But people can ninja in and out of raids as they please. I know this doesn't "brick" the raid, but more times than not, once a tank or top dps drops raid, it becomes a house of cards. Here we are again. Everyone is complaining about M+ (LIKE ALWAYS), so they have to do something to look like they care about the 99%....yet everything they do in this system has only ever cared about the top 1. This is scare bluff.
A really simple UI solution to the problem of leavers that even the leavers couldn't argue against: Include data about how many keys a player has been the first one to leave, without finishing, in the last (day / week) when they sign up for a key. Then it's up to the keyholder who to invite, with better data about who they are inviting.
We don’t know specifics about how they’ve implemented detection & suspension, but they at least acknowledged the issue, so that’s good. I’d need to know the details to discuss anything further - leaving “a great many times” is hilariously vague
I think it's intentionally vague for a reason. They probably don't want people to know exactly how they are determining this so people don't attempt to skirt the system. Just a guess though.
Its time for a "vote to quit key" option in the dungeon. I don't want to get stuck in a key for well over an hour with multiple, multiple attempts at a boss and getting no where with everyone being to scared to leave in case they get banned. I never leave groups and have not done so in all of season 1 so far unless someone has already quit. 99.9% of my keys are pug groups.
this exact situation will never happen ever. And to be brutally honest i myself have left more guild keys or keys with friends than i have pug keys(sometimes people are just delusional, or in my case just an alcoholic and yeah.) Ive never been in or seen a pug key where people spent more than 3 or 5 attempts with no sign of progression just outright quit, its always a group decision. Where as in guild/friend group environemnt im expected to just be ok with it.
@@_AriseChicken I've never been in a pug when someone has left and it's group decision. Usually max 3 attempts and someone insta leaves....that's not the definition of a group decision.
@@heythereguysitsMetro never happens? I’ve seen this exact scenario myself this season and I’ve seen many guildies going through it. Or are you attempting to insinuate blizzard won’t ban people for that?
They can build in some criteria to the key when you list it you have the option for "beat timer" or "completion"... If you list as completion, and someone tries to rage quit early. They get a warning saying your action will be flagged if you leave etc.
@@heythereguysitsMetro But.. that's already the case, no? At least somewhat. When you start a group in the LFG tool, there is a dropdown called "Goal", which has 3 options. The default value is "Standard" whatever that's supposed to mean and the other two are "Completion" and "Beat Timer". This has been in the game for ages already. I mean apart from the "message" ofc. That's not there but you have to options to list a key as completion.
Yes we are specifically talking about people who leave completions "getting a warning saying your actions will be flagged if you leave" (direct quote from the first post.) My reaction of "that would be great" is in reference to that.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Alright, my misunderstanding then. Maybe I was just too focused on the "beat timer"/"completion" part then. But yes, that would be an option. What about if you have listed it as "Beat Timer". What could the flag condition be for leaving then?
Makes sense. I tanked a +6 with zero knowledge of what I was doing, used no CDs in a spooky pack and died in about 3 seconds. Then everyone left. So toxic by all of them. WTH are Blizzard even doing at this point? How are they even going to determine who is to blame? A jury of my peers?
@@heythereguysitsMetro not to mention that the party leader can kick someone and it will be appeaing as someone leaving, their automated systems are bad and never worked. GL!
thats a good start! Now add 2k gold reward at the end + 100% guaranteed rng drop at the end of dungeon depleted or not and there we go m+ gives ppl way more motivation to complete keys
@@heythereguysitsMetro hopefully they will lol they could just also add a raid and dungeon vendor to buy some gears you so long grind and never see them drop
I don't really agree with your point that if you are in a key with someone you are on the same level, sometimes you just do a weekly key for example and you might be way higher level player than the rest, sometimes you are on an alt, sometimes you might be a very high key pusher that just didn't have time to push this season. My point it that not always you are on the same level as the rest of the group because not every key is being done with the purpose of increasing your score, so you end up carrying a lot of very bad players, now that does not mean you should leave ofc. Great video thanks for the content !
@stercorarius you clearly do not do enough keys if you think that is the solution, as well as you might need to do a faster dungeon like mists or you just skipped a week or something so you don't have a 10. As I said though this is no excuse to leave a key i am just touching on 1 point he brought up
I'm talking about when you are the same score as people obviously. If you want to do keys lower than your progression, that's on you. But obviously you do so knowing there may be players worse than you, and since you willingly are in a group with them, there would be no excuse for that to be an issue.
This can be a big problem , who decide what is "recklessly", the rest of the players doing the report? can be a useful tool but i dont trust in the user. Shoort story, BFA , 18 Siege, we fuck up the key , the tank ask , hey u wonna keep going? , me and the healer said , sorry no, wanted to upgrade, take care and thanks! ( cause my time is worth too u know) , 10 minutes later , i recieve threats on my whispers , and a call from my guildmaster , " Hey , this person saying u quit the key. what is going on?! ... , as a tank , i experience a few stuff too, " hey guys pliss , let me pull , u pick me as a tank , ik the route!" , "guys pliss , dont fight each other lets have some fun! ", stress, a lot of stress in a game for human behaviour , is that considered recklessly? , and then ppl ask , Why u are calling it out? , guys , u are just saying bad words and trolling the entire key and u asking me why and getting piss? . The Shaman video u show in your own channel , he was getting bait and troll by his own group, can he leave? for saving his sanity and his time?
The only time you should leave is when the group leader wants to stop. Blizzard literally just agreed with that so, idk what to tell you at this point. Good luck out there!
@@heythereguysitsMetro i thinks that is a very dangerous statement ( with all respect , big fan of your content) , i dont think blizzard just agree with that , idk why u understand that , they are against extremely toxic behaviour, , like ppl just quiting at the very start of the dungeon for example , is a step but idk why u take that quote, and i think the entire hipotesis of your spreach is based in that every ppl is good at the game and we all know that is not.The only time you should leave is when the group leader wants to stop????? that is a very toxic response
@@heythereguysitsMetro very mature! that is how ppl can manage rational responses , i think u have serious issues men , ... why u have a channel to open up about a subject and have this answers only with ppl to disagree with u , again , pretty mature , im not a leaver so , im chill :) , and best of luck with the racist report on youtube , have fun!
It's disappointing if this is the only step they take and they think this will fix it. I also don't trust Blizzard's automated systems, they will be either too heavy handed or too lenient based on how they calibrate it since there's no way a human will review all these cases. I don't expect the number of leavers to change significantly since most people don't leave often enough for this to be a problem, for example I was first to leave in maybe 4 or 5 keys out of easily 230+ this season and I feel very justified in the keys I left and am confident I'll be fine. Maybe with this problem being brought to the forefront though someone will finally ask Blizzard why key depletion is still in the game, how does it make the game more fun and when they intend to finally get rid of it. Not having your key go -1 because someone left takes a lot of the sting out of someone leaving, the thought that the person who left my key might get punished, honestly, I don't care and it doesn't make me feel better when someone leaves in an unreasonable way. People who constantly leave dozens of keys all the time and especially those who do it "for fun" should have already be punished before too so I'm concerned that they think this is the only solution they need and a really outdated key depletion system will stay in the game. Guess we'll see.
I am very happy with this change! Something that might help with a mutual disband is something similar to other games like a "Surrender ." vote thing that the party can all vote on and that way it doesn't get flagged if a key gets bricked and everyone agrees to leave.
This is a step in the right direction from Blizzard, however what determines an appropriate time to disband for example groups who cannot complete a dungeon based on performance (eg. mechanic failure/failing dps check) without any clear indication of improvement to said performance. I personally have only had one time where the group collectively agreed that we cannot complete a mythic+, other than this one instance its usually one entitled individual who in my opinion deserves a timeout from the premade group finder.
Luckily that never actually happens so not really a concern. If you are running into dozens of runs where people can not complete the dungeon make sure you record them and send them in.
Honest question. As an FFXIV player who is just trying out some WoW for a change of pace, do you guys not have a 'Vote Abandon' function? In FF if 15 minutes have passed and there is no hope (or any other reason). You can vote to disband and no one receives a penalty. Obviously a bit harsher in situations where you have an item that degrades on failure. But still. I feel like the majority should be able to choose - just might lead to griefing key owners I suppose.
@@prismriver659 unfortunately it's not quite the same, it can work that way in regular dungeons but once you plug in a key you're stuck with the group until you clear the dungeon or the run is given up on. It's why leavers are getting penalized now, you can't replace anyone who leaves, dcs, etc. and the one hosting the key is the one paying for it, with no way to declare the key a loss by the party but to fail and downgrade it a level entirely. It's an old system that could use some reworking to reduce toxicity and the punishment but generally it's a hot topic on many fronts. Keys are exclusively pre made as well too so PF is a regular thing, and thus pugs with the normal amount of issues you could expect.
i mean to the people being concerned, you can even before the key starts talk to them and lay out what needs to be happen so that you guys agree on leaving the key behind. and if the terms arent liked by any1 involved then leave before the key even starts. like if its 11+ keys for io then straight up communicate that you dont want to finish it unless its timed and that you consider it out of time if you wipe it at some point. if they others agree then you got yourself a deal if not then leave
I'm very curious to see how this will affect your disband rate on your spreadsheet. Will you do anything different with your tracker to show the difference?
Going to be honest. There are some keys I wish would just disband. But other keys, almost exactly the same situation, I am motivated to finish and help the other players improve, and THAT challenge of overcoming the dungeon together, as a team, is greater then upgrading or score or gear. If I contemplate this, I think it's down to my mood. Am I playing for the enjoyment of it? Or am I doing a chore to get score, or gear, or vault slots? My mentality before signing up for the key makes a huge difference.
Id be very curious on your thoughts on this kind of situation. I left a key the other day right after it was started. I was queuing up for some 12s trying to get some io. I finally got accepted to one, ported to the dungeon, 0 chat interaction, ready check started, countdown started, then key was started. Upon the key starting, it was a 10 and not a 12, so I left. Should I have been forced to do a 10 when the key I was signing up for was a 12 and it was listed in lfg as a 12?
at that point I'd say false advertisement is a pass, though I'd at least bring it up in chat first and keep a record of the interaction before leaving incase they try to report for it. I can get listing someone else's key cause raider io makes a difference in pugs applying but keeping clear communication on posting what key is generally baseline.
If you have proof that it wasn't an error on your part then ya, I would support you leaving that. I have had a similar situation like that myself actually. I listed my key, and some one else put their lower key in instead. That's not leaving at that point, because the advertised group never actually started. But ya, that obviously doesn't happen enough to be an issue.
Finally something. It gives me a little hope for the future to help this massively bad problem. And no remorse for anyone who’s gotten suspended over this stuff. It’s clear they have the data
Only thing i dont agree with is the " score is same skill lvl". A 2800 player only pugging and a 2800 player getting it with full premades/voicecom is not on the same lvl of skill. But I get your point.
Blizzard disagrees, is what I'm saying. So trying to justify leaving because that person who is the same progression level as you is unacceptably bad is not going to work.
Just wanna make clear that im not trying to justify leaving. Just made a comment that getting higher IO pugging is harder then playing with premades/voicecomms. So its not always the same "skill lvl" when you have the same score. But eitherway not a reason to leave a grp when they key has started
Yes, its always the same "skill level" as far as the game goes. That's what we are talking about here, not your perception as to how they came to obtain the score. Obviously there is boosting too, and that's another reason why that shouldn't be allowed either.
Not only will this reduce m+ toxicity, but it will also rid us of the baddies who accidentally get to a higher score by sheer luck of queueing for a key and dipping as soon as one thing goes wrong on repeat without actually learning anything until they finally find a group that boosts them. Hooray!
I didn’t have any issues with serial leavers until I started pushing my own +12 keys has a prot pally. Almost all 10 or 11s the group will keep going to finish the key even if there’s multiple wipes but those 12, one mistake or 1 wipe even in a smooth run it’s automatic disband. Yesterday I did a 12 City and it was so smooth until I pulled a bit too big after Fangs and everyone just called it.
if people are concerned about being "held hostage" in an underperforming pug, maybe a group wide lose condition is necessary. ~50 deaths results in an auto lose for a key, or something to that degree. losing IO should also be incorporated.
Maybe someone smarter then then me can let me know why cant they just remove the deplete mechanism? I really don’t see why this is in place, in raids you try and try again. Would it be bad to just let people keep attempting the key and as a side affect it will lessen the impact of leavers?
Ya the short answer is, it's their system and they want it in. I can say it's likely to prevent people from just brute forcing keys over and over again. But I'm not sure myself tbh.
what if raider io kept track of how many times a player was the 1st one to leave a key? it'd be great to know if your 3k io carry will leave on the 1st wipe
Let's hope they never publish their exact figures on the number of quits that justifies a penalty. As some commenters have already pointed out, there will always be people who stretch the rules to the limit.
Can’t they just add a / command to vote to end the key? Wouldn’t that save a lot of headache with leaving keys? I would like to see a scaling ban time too. 1 leave is a pass, 2 leaves 1 hour, 3 leaves 2 hours, 4 leave a day, 5 leaves a week. They would just need to find a cooldown period when they fall off.
Tough line here. I’m okay with if the timer ends you can leave group, but that being said. There’s idiots in all levels of content who have both the gear and io to indicate otherwise. I’ve seen 626 ilvl 2400 io people die to the silliest things. In low to mid range keys, I’m not pushing 12s. And when they do those I don’t think you should be forced to have to stick it through with them for a half hour until the timer is up then you leave without penalty. If you are griefing peoples keys that’s one thing for a temporary ban but all this will do is disincentivise pugging more, when tanks and healers are already a rarer role. Why would anyone want to risk their account when people can be real terrible.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Of course dps leave keys. Reading through the comments of this video alone and my own experiences tanking and healing, I know its not gonna be the dps using self introspection. They'll double pull a extra pack, not use defensives/kicks and then blame the tank/healer for that and now apparently just report them and get them banned. Not the solution. If blizzard wants to go ahead and manually and *actually* review every report to decide to ban toxic players, great. But we know that's not gonna be the case.
A lot of nuances in how this could be implemented, and whether it has a desired outcome really depends on the nuances. The first thing that comes to my mind are players who simply log off, rather than leave group. This is a common tactic by leavers. How can Blizzard identify this? I think one solution is the rest of the group reports the player who logged, but this also opens up another can of worms....
Ya we know nothing about how they would assess it, but obviously logging off dozens of times a season is no different than leaving. No one is going to be punishing people and simultaneously being tricked by that haha
I had a fire mage in a key back in SL (season 2 or 3)...the name was keyburner (i didnt put two together until after this happened). It was a +15 ToP, the tank did the standard opening pull w/ trash before first boss @ the time. Keyburner (the mage) pulled the boss with pyroblast then left the group. We saw him portal out as the rest of us wiped and an "lol" in the chatbox. Bout time something like this comes around!!
Put in a vote system like removing AFKers in LFD. Also it’s the Dunning-Krueger affect where these players think they are better than what they are compared to other in the same sample pool.
Vague text all around also what does gameplay suspension mean? Does it mean they suspend your account or just your ability to pug? How can they determine if you leave because you're a griefer or because the group is bad? And even so, an account suspension for it? I've had my fair share of keys bricked by others, and I've left groups. I think I encountered what I'd call a griefer only once or twice , who got so mad he bricked the key. I'm not even counting the verbal abuse flung my way as a tank but there's already an option to report that.
This is a good change. I always try to complete keys, but some days I just have much less patience than others. I think this inadvertently has a psychological effect of encouraging people to take breaks when they start to get tilted, instead of taking that to future groups and becoming the leaver themselves. At least for me, I realize it has that effect. If it has that effect for other people, I think that’ll be *really* healthy for the m+ pugging scene.
Very great change. I would like a "vote to quit key" option and all issues are solved i think. Im with a 3 man and we have run into multiple issues when progging our keys where we just hit a boss we arent killing . The group mutually agrees the key is dead. Wouldnt want us to get banned when we all agree to leave. Add a vote to quit so we arent legit stuck on a boss we cant kill and all is well.
@heythereguysitsMetro I don't now either. Best I can think of is tying it to the elemental that shows up when you go over time. That way the group gave an effort at least and can leave? But then you run the risk of a troll dying repeatedly to run timer out. Just would suck to be punished when the group agrees to leave the key
I have said this since this conversation came up in the streams, and I don't believe I had heard a solid argument against it. But Blizzard needs to implement a system similar toFFXIV's vote abandon system where if the majority of the group agrees to disband, there's no penalty
Ya, its an ideal situation, but I dont think it can structurally exist right now given you can just walk in any key with no rules about forming the group. I think this requires a soloQ. Just because of how the game works.
"Are you sure that you're not the problem?" No offence, Metro, I love your videos and your attitude on most things related to Mythic+, but this is kind of a surface-level way to look at it. People do lower keys than the level they're at sometimes to farm crests, or to farm a specific item, or they actually need the key and somebody invites a friend who they have themselves literally boosted through keys (which I know personally you can very much do up to at least like 11s) who then ends up adding endless amounts of stress to what should be a really easy time, or somebody disconnects multiple times and just makes every actual friction point in a key so much more stressful for others, or they only do damage and let party-wide damage go through when they're the only kick and/or CC left, or they ignore a skip the party is doing and/or ninja pull recklessly etc etc. There's loads of reasons for a person who joins a key to be kinda justified in leaving a key prematurely, and there's loads of other ways for people to grief a key beyond leaving it. I think the "respect" for somebody's keystone should go both for leaving and performance, to a degree (which kinda works as a self-policing concept in higher keys already, to be honest). I think the kind of depressing part of this "solution" is that Blizzard just wants to smite people's accounts, for POTENTIALLY unjustified reasons, instead of...I dunno, putting in some effort and reworking the absolutely idiotic keystone system, where only the keyholder takes a risk, which makes LFG and "giving people a chance" stupid risky; and it's completely binary, where you either time your key and get a higher key and/or rio...or you deplete your key, completely throw away all the time you already spent in the dungeon, AND have to re-run it on a lower key level you don't need, and if you don't finish the depleted key, you literally get N O T H I N G from it, AND have to spend a ridiculously inflated amount of gold to repair your gear on top of it (and, as a bit of added comedy, we still get 50-ish gold from finishing a dungeon? lmao?). I don't particularly disagree with punishing habitual Mythic+ leavers (especially because these bans are NOT handed out to anybody who's ever left a key; I have some friends who do it semi-often who didn't get banned, so these bans have to be handed out for some EGREGIOUS behaviour), but I wish Blizzard looked into the Mythic+ keystone system more comprehensively than just "durr you're banned".
@@heythereguysitsMetro Disagree with what? You disagree with the keystone system not being perfect? You disagree with there being nuance in people leaving a run? You disagree that everybody in the party should have respect for the keyholder's key (unless they're the key holder, in which case, y'know, they're already "providing" the key, which I accept, but is also innately an issue with the system)? So you think some people are correct in disrespecting somebody else's key, and should intentionally grief it? Alright then. I don't get what's disagreeable with what I said, 'cause I didn't even disagree with anything you said (from what I can remember); all I was saying is that Blizzard banning leavers is a band-aid that doesn't actually solve pretty much anything, and knowing their history of automation, they will not handle this M+ leaver banning thing perfectly either.
@@kaliyvga1426 Yeah, it's a little disheartening. I'm not supporting letting toxic people continue to play the game without punishment, so it's weird to see him "disagree" with me just wanting Blizzard to work on the keystone system a liiiiiiittle bit more than just "we'll ban leavers". It'll vindicate some ('cause yay, other people getting banned is true happiness), upset others, and at the end of the day, LFG will still be toxic af. It solves almost nothing (though I'm sure the undergeared mole people looking for boosts in LFG will just be happy that the people constantly leaving their runs will finally be punished).
@@Frawt blizzard created a good environment for people leaving as well, the rewards that you get if you over time the key are horrible, tank and healer role is way harder than dps (so as a healer or tank, i do think leaving is okay if group is bad), key downgrading is bad as well. Marcellius made a good video about M+, leavers are not the problem at all. Also, automatic system is really bad and can be abused
I think that this great! Iv actually had real life emergencies happen. One was a call to tell me my horse had go through a fence and needed a vet ASAP so they do happen!
@@Lilligirl319 oh ya absolutely. My father died in the middle of a key, and my mother broke her leg in the middle of a key. So I know they happen for sure.
I don't completely agree with your comments about joining keys which are the same as your IO/skill level. I recently made a new alt who is lowered geared and I've had to join lower level keys as part of the gearing process regardless of my mains IO level. Doings 8s I can see the difference in skill level, just this moment a tank in a group I joined for an 8+ mist left near the end after countless players dying to avoidable damage and I don't blame him. We had like 5 deaths to the dodge ball ability at the second boss and this continued through the dungeon
In regards to people complaining about getting into groups with people that don't know dungeon mechanics, I feel like a better way for new players to not be funneled into keys they do not understand is to only allow keys to be upgraded if they have already done the dungeon at that level. So if you timed Dawnb reaker on 2 and it is your first key ever, you can have the option of doing dawnbreaker at a higher level or you can now do a 2 on one of the other dungeons that you have not done yet. If you have timed everything on a 2, then you will upgrade a random dungeon to a three or a four. That way you don't end up getting a key for a 10 and you've never stepped foot in the dungeon. If you have only pushed other people's keys but not your own, you would be eligible to upgrade your key on those that you've timed
That's not a bad idea, but its a huge derivation from how the system would work and would obliterate early progression. I don't think its on the table.
This is unironically why Blizzard makes us all sign the social contract from time to time. People don’t take it seriously and it’s funny that Blizzard is finally enforcing it. It’s sad that people have this mindset that just because they can ruin someone’s gameplay experience without punishment, that’s just okay.
So how does it work? Do I have to report leavers or do they track the leavers trends and deal out bans automatically? Good intention for sure. Wouldn't hurt if there was a deserter debuff for the first person who leaves a key while the time is still ticking for like an 1 hour and make it increase if happens often. Vote to disband system would be good too not to mention the solo queue.
Well, they do have every single event logged into their database so it might be possible to generate a report like “ How Many times someone left the group while still having time left on the clock (even if it is not enough to actually time the key)”.
It might be a coincidence but I've had more ALT F4-ers this week than just outright leavers. I think this could potentially prompt people to not leave and just alt f4 every time to potentially dodge a ban, as it would be a rather risky move from Blizz ban people because they "dc'd" despite these players receiving reports. I'm curious how will they handle that. This is overall definitely a step in the right direction.
What happens in, for example, League of Legends, when you dc? You still receive a penalty, right? I mean the bans clearly target people who leave keys repeatedly and it’d have to be such an unfortunate coincidence that you unintentionally dc’d 35 times in a row. If that’d actually happen, think about changing your ISP or even about participating in group content with that kind of an internet connection.
but this is a good initial step, however there are many unknowns, what is "great many times"? can that be quantified? How they decide that someone intentionally harm ? I ask because it is very important, if a human decides this, it can be expected that more or less we have similar grasp of what answer to these questions are, however, human doing it is more like very isolated cases and without AI doing this, it can never go as a standard tool in game (such as in CS for example), they need to define these things and tune in the future, so that it can be frequently applied.
I will say that the action blizz is taking is a step in the right direction but to add to this announcement they 100% need to add a "vote to disband" system within the group that players can initiate to not allow players to get suspended over a mutual disband. Similar to leagues system where its a 80/20 split or something aka 4 out of 5 agree to disband would be a mutual disband
@@heythereguysitsMetro I suppose thats true. I still think it would work fine even with the current implement. I sign up for a key, the key holder agrees to take me. Another invited player rage quits over the first pull, the key holder initiates a mutual disband so the only punished player is the leaver and not the rest of the group. That was what I was leaning towards. Anyways I hope your classic experience has been going well this time around
The vote to disband system already exists in the game, you type in /party chat if you want to continue or stop and everyone gets a chance to respond vs someone hitting ALT+F4 or leaving without saying a word.
@@AlicenW0nd3rland They are not tracking that currently, its purely based on reports, so that is not really an issue currently. Even if they will track it, then there would be no point in tracking anything but the first person to leave. Even if you are the last boss and a dps leaves and everybody else is begging the remaining group to finish the dungeon, if somebody decides to leave at that point they should not be punished in my opinion.
@@apotheonffxiv yes you can use the chat but it's much slower to get the response than a "vote to disband" button that could throw up a small window a kin to the ready check window in case group doesn't agree to disband instead of losing time to discussing the matter (granted some could have the discussion while still playing the key but not everyone thinks that way)
In regards to knowing if the group was collectively disbanded, or if one person leaves is probably not hard for them to know. They of course have all that data. No doubt they have a system implemented to notify on accounts that have a high quit rate. At least, this is what I would assume. I for one am really happy about it. It's about time they do something. People that leave constantly are unhinged, and offer up pure destruction to the game experience. I'd rather all the people who quit constantly leave the game for good, then stay and continue doing it.
I'm a mythic raider, but i got a late start to M+ and i'm not comfortable in them yet, i've done an 8 and it went fine because the group carried my, my damage was fine but my mechanics were lacking. There's a reason i still try to find 4-6's when i do keys, because i might have 630ilvl, but i don't know the mechanics, i'm still at that level despite doing so much more dps. Why should i feel superior when anyone can look up my M+ score and see i've never even done the dawnbreaker :D
what if blizzard were to implement a vote system for mythic + liken to kicking someone. Right click group "Vote to disband" And if you get 3 out of 5 you can.
jepp, im one of them. i quit wow few years ago due to the toxic environment around m+ dungeons. i wouldn't say people just leaving was the main reason i left the game, but it was def a big part of it. another big reason is that how quick people are to kick others in normal mytic runs even when its not their fault at all. what pisses me the most of with dungeon runs, is that you got a deserter buff for being kicked from a group, even when they had no legit reason to kick you.
no if they go offline other players can easily right click their name and report them. and they will get banned after leaving some groups. but if they leave group and put everyone on ignore.. theres no way to report them now
They could avoid banning people if blizzard adds in features that locks players in the key and the only way to get out of the key is a vote for forfeit is sent out by the leader and is unanimous from the entire group. Or give players who leaves a key 24 hour lockout debuff that prevents them from accessing group content.
Great timing on this post... I had my first griefer on AraKara last night. Did the opening- stair pull and they leave mid pull. We all reported them and here we are today 😂
So what about the guys that just Alt-F4? Technically they never left the key and had unfortunate internet issues, right? Or here's the new type of leavers, they just stand still and wait for the group to disband then report all of those people. Lets hope this doesn't happen but I suspect they will find new and interesting ways to quit if they end up getting the ban hammer too often.
Why do you think Blizzard ONLY looks at people who right click and leave groups? They obviously are going to be looking at any players who regularly disrupt groups, no matter how it plays out.
Only once in the whole season I've been the first to leave a key. I stay even when I know from the very first pull we won't make the timer. I don't run anything beyond 10s or 11s because I only do Mplus to get gear/crests for raiding gear. I get auto invites to any key because I'm a tank, and my char is listed as 637, so I don't struggle to get into pugs. But also, I don't pug that much, I prefer to run with my guildmates. In any case, when I pug, it is not strange when I get thanked for "not leaving the key", so, yes, I'm aware that tanks leaving after the first pull is an issue. My friends complain a lot about the tanks they get on their keys. I say all this, to avoid being flagged as a leaver, a rager or an elitist when I say that you are wrong. Having people with similar score doesn't mean anything. It doesn't represent how they are going to play in a key. Groups with the same composition and same score on the same key can and most of the time will perform wildly different, at least on this and lower brackets. Now, I would avoid saying "bad players" and "good players", who are you to say who is good or bad? That is totally subjective to context. That's why I say "perform different". I encourage you to stop using that language, because you yourself in other contexts could be considered not a good player. Now, regarding the amount of tanks and healers leaving, is a natural consequence of how very few people are playing these roles. Yes, the behavior is bad, I'm not justifying it, but the issue is the philosophy of the design that is encouraging this kind of behavior. Being a tank or a healer should be a more attractive role, or less punished, so more people are encouraged to play these roles like in some previous seasons. If I'm a healer, and I see that a bunch of avoidable, cc'able and interruptible damage is passing and making my life way harder, and as a consequence, get flamed, I would feel encouraged to leave that group. In any case, this is a community behavior that Blizzard shouldn't address with bans and suspensions. Becuase, right now, even knowing that I'm not a leaver, I help people finish their keys, etc. I really don't feel like pugging. We don't know the exact criteria, yes, you can say that someone that is reincident, or get constant reports, but we know Blizzard uses automated suspensions even when they say they don't, even when they say they review each case. I can't risk getting suspended and leave my guild without a tank for Raids. You will see less tanks and healers queuing in the following days.
Wait so I can’t get declined on my rogue, queue for the same key on my 635 resto sham and then hearth out right as the key is dropped anymore? Outrageous and unjust change!
I know someone. Its not a small ban either, they did 10 day bans. I would assume for a new rule it would have been 48 hour warning shots but they got the cannon. The person I know said they would "be the first to leave occasionally". The truthfulness of that claim about it only being occasionally I don't know but yeah, they got hit with a 10 day for disruptive gameplay. If a 10 day is the first offense I wonder what the escalation will be for repeat offenses
@heythereguysitsMetro I would love to but its a complicated relationship and I worry if I ask for a screenshot it'll come off as gloating. I can tell you the bans rolled out this weekend/earlier this week before this post came out. They got banned until Dec 4th and the only reason was "disruptive gameplay". We had initially assumed it was them being reported for being toxic or using a mouse jiggler to stay logged in but this post pretty much confirmed it was for leaving.
hopefully this somewhat hints that there will be more support features in some shape or form within the expansion for a more policed pug environment. Super happy for the solo players.
The way they know is probably through the rest of the group reporting the leavers. My crew does that to people who leave a perfectly timeable key. If you leave and get 4 reports, and this happens repeatedly, then they know just by the timing of the reports. Report the dirt bags! When I pug a key and get into a subpar group, I just take the opportunity to practice some of my skills, and try to give constructive feedback so the group learns something and comes out better than they started. Teaching is a great way to get better yourself.
This doesn't seem manageable. Does Blizz plan on monitoring all logs everytime someone complains about a leaver? If it is an automated system, how will the account for teams that collectively decided to leave a key? Will the implement a new voting system? The idea sounds good but implementation will be tough.
Yeah the leavers after 1 dead are making it so the learning experience is cut off from happening before it happens. and often these people spam harassment even before the run even started and throughout the entire run somehow finding time spamming the chat how much everyone sucks. I am never going to run keys above 10. So my score will stay 2500 because 10 gives max rewards. I would stay in a key forever if it means i get my 3 crests. But most people leave after 1 dead/wipe no matter if it's still time possible.
@@paolochella1623 so why are we complaining about competitive players not wanting to painfully try to carry players that won't help themselves understand how the mechanics work?
Because its not about INDIVIDUALS its about TEAMS. Do you see other teams throwing each other under the bus midseason when things don't go as well as they may have liked?
About the unexpected real life emergencies, they do happen, although not a lot. I had a key once with a duo I invited, one of them heard his granny died mid key. He just had to leave, we finished the key 4-man in honor of poor granny though.
I'm very happy that blizzard made these changes, but the sad thing is. I have no friends to run PvE content other than world quest, delves, campaign or collecting old transmogs and etc. But oh well. There isn't not much I'm missing out on, rather watching RUclips seeing people progress so far. This is me not complaining but surprised with these updates :D
Hey, bro. So i wanted to take a couple days and really think about the sort of things that make me leave keys before i responded. Im a multiclass healer, fwiw. Typically top 1pct player, but dont chase titles. I dont enjoy the game once bolt casts start almost one shotting people, so i stop a little before i max out. This season i didnt play the first few months due to the state of the game. Last few weeks i came baxk and have been doing 8-10s gearing up. So if im in an 8 grim batol with players with a curse dispel, and they either dont know how to use it, dont have it talented, or refuse to use it consistently, and the group starts wiping as a result due to tank pulling big in that hallway and nobody dispelling or helping kick the channel that stuns players (closed mind i think?) how am i not warranted to leave this key? Or lets say im playing with a warrior tank that that does not have even remotely acceptable uptime on shield wall or ignore pain and hea getting insta clapped on pull or needing cocoon on cd? Now these players have around the same score. Perhaps this is a niche youre talking about, but i absolutely assure you my friend, i am not dog shit like this. Ive been playing the game at a reasonably high level for years. I dont make those sorts of mistakes. Those are a complete lack of preparedness and understanding of their classes, or complete negligence. Do i owe them a carry because they sigend up with a decent score? What if you lied in your interview about being able to do something very basic, does the emplooyer have to keep you around?
Sorry, but you have said a few things that really do nothing to dispel this idea that you are not deserving of groups like this, and I will stand firm in that if you are regularly running into groups like this, they are likely feeling the same way about you. Best way to prove it though is send in some footage of your keys! Either way, yes you DO owe them at least the full time of the key, even if they make some mistakes along the way, just as others will give you that grace to make mistakes. We ALL make mistakes, and unless you ARE in title range, you should recognize that you yourself have a lot of growth to do as a player. Give others that room as they do to you, and finish keys you sign up for, especially if they are lower.
@@heythereguysitsMetro metro, im a 43 year old man that plays these games to relax and get away from real life. idk if you get a lot of people coming into your comments lying to you or what, but to assume that everyone is must suck. we arent talking about mistakes here. i make mistakes all the time, everyone does. theres a distinct difference between accidentally stepping in a swirly, or misusing a cooldown or something, and literally not even having your dispel bound or refusing to use it. there are about 15 or more opportunities to use it in that dungeon. when someone doesnt use it, they either dont know how the game works, or dont care. i do not fall into either of those categories. i take the time to learn exactly what my utility does and where it is useful in every dungeon i play in, for every character i play. these guys arent doing the same thing. im not even talking about skill issues, bro. im talking about literally not givin a fuck about anyone but themselves. ive watched your stream countless times. ive seen you end up with players that are dramatically below your preparation and skill level. does that mean its your fault and you are that bad? of course not. thats insane bro
@@HeIIaAverage Okay, so let's go a different way with this. You say you have watched me encounter this, and frankly I disagree that I have, but let's assume I have. What are your thoughts on how and why I handle them when I run into them then? Why do you believe my actions and thoughts differ from yours?
@@heythereguysitsMetro ive seen people in your keys that are lost. you are not lost, not in the least. but to answer your question, i guess the easiest way to describe how you handle this when you run into it is, you just bare the burden. you carry people. i would imagine that the reason you handle the situation differently from me is because perhaps several things. maybe you have a genuine desire to help people in the game. for whatever reason, you also really want to finish every key, even keys that are only for score that no one needs for gear. i think its also fair to say that you dont share the same strong dislike for sloppy play, as long as the key is finished/timed etc. idk
@@HeIIaAverage Cool, well thanks for thinking about it. Respect you man, thanks for being respectful back towards me. I would just encourage everyone to try their best in every key and realize that in the pug world, there are players who play bad and many times you can succeed even if they do play bad. There is a line that we all must draw for ourselves how far you are willing to let that go, and I have a line myself. I just never leave, because that doesn't help anyone, including myself.
Big W. But I do want a forfeit option -> majority vote to forfeit passes = leaving does not lead to punishment. // you rage quit in spite of failed vote -> you get punished harder.
hey man, my laptop is broken. i'm still using it because i cannot afford another PC at the moment. I randomly get blue screens at any point of the run and there isnt anything i can do except restart the computer and hop back on
They should implement a voting system just like a leaving system. If the group decides to quit the run the key holder starts a vote and if the majority votes yes, the group can end with zero penalty. Otherwise if someone just leaves the system determines it was an abandoned group. If the key holder leaves, it's less of a penalty because it technically is their loss not the others. Vote to kick/Vote to End. The Vote to End could have a reason box where you can report a player as well. That would create a leger of names with how many strikes against them. They could do a system where once a player hits a certain amount of leaves they are: 1: Warned 2: 3 day banned + warning 3: 1 week ban + Perma ban warning 4: Perma Banned.
I'm still fairly new to Mythic+ after only recently returning to WoW since Cata. I am finally pushing into 10s having achieved my first 3 timed runs last night. I have been pugging mostly as a prot warrior and can honestly say no matter how bad the group has gotten, I have yet to be the first person to leave. What you say about respecting others is so true. Glad Blizz is taking steps to try and discourage this behaviour.
Wonder how that is suppose to be enforced? What if you are playing with a guild group trying to push the keyes and happen to be the one who leaves the run first too many times in the row? Are you going to be baned cause blizz decided you can't agree with your friends the key is bricked and you don't want to run it anymore?
why would you be leaving a key when in a full premade group of friends/guildies unless it's an emergency or a situation otherwise out of your control, or group agreed to quit over 3rd party comms like discord? I at least some what get the mentality in pugs as it's people you don't know and wont have to interact with again but when it's friends/guildies you're creating resentment towards yourself and just alienating yourself from the group by intentionally leaving just cause you don't want to finish the key while the rest do (unless you have set some hard boundary before hand that you will not finish any key that isn't timed which I suppose is fair but personally I would just not invite you to my group then). Anyway I assume this only applies to those who get reported for leaving and usually friends/guildies don't report each other because that would just potentially be reducing your pool of friends to play with
@@apotheonffxiv @madDjakni @heythereguysitsMetro yeah get the point! I meant leaving the instance rather than group, if that will be checked in regards to people leaving the group then it is fine by me! Not pugging anymore but do get the struggle as I was doing that before- we only had small group prior to joining current guild and had to pug 1 - 2 people. Still would prefer that to be report system than automated decision.
Although this is massive step in the right direction, I have some worries with Blizzard's system that determines who is leaving keys intentionally to grief and groups that just call that they key is over and all of them agree to stop. Is it the party chat that determines that? I feel like a more in depth explanation from them would have been very good.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah, my main concern with this system is if the wrong people get punished, or the people that need to be punished, aren't. But, hopefully everything works and M+ starts healing from all the damage that has been done throughout the years.
my only problem with is how vague they are with the wording. like i leave alot of keys at higher level keys when they brick like does that mean we are at risk of being banned for not completing it? if its for people who leave just to screw over people then im cool with that but if it starts to affect people at higher keys its going to get bad. just a side note just because a key is still timeable doesnt mean that it isnt a horrific run to be in. the amount of times ive joined a 10 on my alts to people with the correct gear and ilvl and they are still just bad is way to high.
@@evolburd5768 dont listen to this guy, hes delusional "stop pugging" is such a horrible comeback to the point you just made, yeah let me form a push team for my 4th alt so i can do this 12. 99% of the people agreeing with this haven't even seen the Guile affix first hand and get mad when people leave their keys when theyre doing 800kdps and just want a carry. the amount of times ive left a pug because the tank thinks this is hardcore classic and takes 3 pulls to pull to the first spider in arakara is insane.
From what I understand, these bans are targeting very specific people. The odd verbiage is because apparently there are people who run hundreds of keys and all they do is immediately leave after the key holder puts the key in. I have a screenshot of someone doing it to me back in October, but I'm not sure how to send it to you.
Thanks for the video, it can be start of a good change. Ofc as some people and also you noted there's some flaw such as fake report, solo que and disband vote. But I'm telling it to the people who disagree with this starting change to happen. all in one this is a good action, if you want to feedback and suggest ways to improve it then you're welcome, but don't call this entirely a wrong decision "because it's possible" in a few cases some people may abuse it etc etc. it will be a good step for a bigger change. Also I'm looking forward to see what's the duration of the penalty and ofc i like if blizzard uses human resource instead of generated auto messages in answer of those who may gets ban and wish to review the case
While this is good, they should also focus on teaching people how to play and deal with the insane number mechanics happening in a dungeon. There is a reason why these people leave the groups other than being an asshole, it's not always about low dps. There are so many people even in higher keys like 12s and 13s where you generaly expect everyone to know every single mechanic, that fail miserably to the most basic mechanics. But maybe forcing people to not leave and play until the end, even if the group description didn't have "completion" for weekly vault, will over time teach people how to play?
Should not be a ban but an hour deserter. I’m not finishing a key to fill someone’s vault for gear they don’t deserve. They get free gear and don’t know mechanics. Huge repair bills and reagents. Fuck that
For me, it's not the solution, it's more fair to put a timer for a key to be depleted or change, for example, for 5 min at the start of the key, the key cannot be deplete. It allowed ppl to try thinks in the start of the key, to see if the groups can done the dungeon without issues. For me, play with 4 ppl i never played with and do a content who need to be coordinate or knowing mecanics it's already a draw back, yeah score exist, it's not a great source of info to rely on.. I think this decision gonna make creating groups a lot more horrible in some ways and more conflict if the key does't go well to.
I'm unsure how to feel about this honestly. Not because I frequently leave groups as the first player or out of toxicity. In fact, I stay in the vast majority of obviously failed runs until someone else leaves but I have absolutely 0 trust in Blizzards automatic detection systems at this point. Just yesterday I've read a post on Reddit about a guy who was suspended for the title of this LFG listing that was something like "+12 going to +14 after". He even attached a screenshot of the email stating exactly this. Now, this could ofc be a hoax but I've read too many stories about similar automated unjustful bans. Streamers, such as Asmon, even intentionally mass reported themselves to check if the system requires any kind of human acknowledgement and it just doesn't. I honestly doubt that Blizzard utilizes actual human reviews to determine if a leaver was a toxic leaver or just some DC/RL incident. It'll be yet another automated system that most likely won't be properly calibrated/reviewed. This begs the question how this system operates. Does it just operate on reports? Does it just detect the first leaver? Does it analyze the chat afterwards? Does it count the deaths/time/remaining time/reason of deaths/dps/hps/CDs used/mitigation used? Does it account for the key level? Does it analyze how many keys this individual completes/leaves on average? If it operates on reports that's an issues I don't think I'd have to explain. If it operates on who has left first... well.. somebody will inevitably be the first one to leave without any kind of surrender vote system. So it does have to analyze the chat to see if the group came to an agreement. TLDR; I'm highly sceptical about this. It's a great thing if it works out as we hope it'd work out but I'm just sceptical about the actual implementation because Blizzard really hasn't been close to their A game when it comes to QA in the recent past...
A lot of questions on how it will work, but the way to feel about it is highly optimistic because it breaks an 8 year long silence on M+ pugging. If you aren't optimistic, I don't believe you when you say you don't leave keys.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I mean, I've seen how the automated banning system works, I've seen how well QA and CS works at Blizzard since TWW and I've seen that Blizzard employees were not competent enough to handle a simple merge conflict in their version control for the anniversary patch. So I'm highly sceptical about ANY new feature they're trying to implement (such as housing). Blizzard is absolutetly not bringing their A game as of late. More like an... E game at this point. My scepticism doesn't stem form an issue with the concept of banning/punishing leavers. My scepticism stems from my distrust in Blizzards technical competence at this point. I also didn't say I don't leave keys. I do occasionally leave very obviously untimeable 12+ keys, after multiple wipes. But I'm very rarely the first one to leave. Not saying it never happens but I'm 100% confident that it's not even close to be considered by any kind of system or human. But you're ofc free to believe whatever you want.
Oh ya, to be this is their A PLUS game if anything. Balance issues aside, everything they have done lately has been 10/10, and the warcraft direct has me SOLD on the future. But that's a different discussion for a different video. For now, its just about the leavers, and we should all be very excited that they finally care after all this time with nothing.
@@heythereguysitsMetro It's very odd to hear this because I've never played a more bug infested expansion than TWW, let alone the unintentional revert of changes by "overpatching" it (merge conflict issue). But back to the topic - I know you have a whole excel sheet of leavers but how many of those leaves would you describe as "unwaranted" or "toxic"? Because honestly, this season I didn't have a single one. In DF S3 I've had 2. One of which was a guy who was obviously griefing and left 1 sec after the key was started.
i dont really care about people leaving keys tbh no point in getting worked up about that. thus said im not really big on pushing either. if i time then i time if not then it wasnt meant to be anyway. im not worried about being held hostage in "low iq" groups, im the worst hostage =). imo its better to restrict depletion and let people the freedom to leave
Its so simple. Joined 100 Groups. Completed 45 Left 5 not as first Person after 70% of Timer Left 10 as first Person after 70% of Timer Left 20 as first Person after 10% of Timer. Left 20 as first Person after 100% of Timer. Observe -> Ban!
Ya its really easy to identify in my eyes. I just don't think its that cut and dry though, because what if all 100 of those were with people they already know and were in discord together talking about being okay with that person leaving and that the key is over. Its always been a difficult topic to assess.
Agree to disband could be like the vote to kick thing...All players vote to quit the run and GG. But im sure it isnt that simple...or maybe it is lol idk
Its simple, it just requires a system for it to function. Currently, you can walk into a M+ with no rules. You don't even have to do it with 5 people, so there obviously can't be a system to vote to leave without rules about forming the group too. That would all require a SoloQ system and I do think its coming.
I was tanking Dawnbreaker +10 key. My group was horrible... I never leave keys, but being hostage at last boss, with 1hour 10min overtime and 129 deaths, my patient almost broke... And these people had 2300 ish score. I was speechless, it was mindblowing how people could die so much. If only i had enough selfheal i could solo the boss. Great they doing something to m+, but they MUST throw timer and key depletion in the trash! Imagine not having timer and key depletion. So you can play with friends or even pugs, stop mid fight maybe figure out tactic to handle the pulls and boss. The timer and key depletion is making me hate people... :S I just wanna have fun and push keys, not hearthattack looking at timer, and cant go to the toilet mid key or open the door if it rings. They can also throw key depletion but keep timer, but the timer is only for ekstra score or something, and they key will upgrade if you complete it, even if it took 2 hours. Also make it so if you wanna do a 12, u must have completed an 11key of the same dungeon. That will also slow the progression abit and make sure u havent just got ppl in ur group that been boosted. Also if someone can make an addon with a personal banlist, that would be nice.
@@norskevikingen7189 no indication they are changing the keystone system, but they should. If you believe you are playing with people below your skill level stop pugging or record the runs and send them in and we will see for ourselves. 9/10 times people are saying the same thing about you honestly.
I don't think blizzard is trying to force anyone to stay in a key beyond depletion, this punishment is being aimed at those who enter a key and after only 1 wipe or maybe even one person dying they bail out and the timer is only 3-5 minutes into the dungeon, it is silly to think they are trying to make you stay for hours.
@@heythereguysitsMetro sure, but not all have time to connect with guild and such. For me and many others cant join in on guild raids, and m+ group anymore because busy in rl. So its pug or no wow. And its not thinking people are below me, everyone do mistakes. Ofc its allowed to mess up. But with 2300+scores it should be safe to assume that people have basic knowledge of the dungeon. It should be a progress system so people who have completed lets say a nectrotic wake 4, cant jump in or get a 10-11 necro Key from vault. But a slow and steady, where you complete all on 4 then 5, then 6 etc. Think everyone benefit from that. The timer and death counts should be removed. Psychologically speaking i think it effect us much more then we think. I hope im a decent and patient guy, but even i have to log off retail sometimes and play hardcore classic with pugs, because m+ making me hate people sometimes. Im sure pugs can feel same over me, when i mess up. But thats why having a timer that remind the group all the time about the failure isnt good. Im spending much more time in a classic hardcore dungeon, but everyone having a blast. There is no pressure.
These comments are sending me lol talking about how you won't be forced into staying in a key that will take too long or is overtimed...I cant be convinced that if people are communicating and being respectful to eachother that there cant be a mutual understanding on whether to stay or not. Even better, just have a discussion before the key starts with they leader! "Hey guys I'm just looking to time this key, not interested in an hour-long run for completion, everyone cool with that?" Lol like dude... Somebody's going to come up with some crazy niche situation that this doesn't apply to, but ask yourself how often something like that actually happens where this would not solve the problem. Seems like Blizz is banning for a behavior pattern, not some crazy one-off situation
this streamer like any other is the problem. If i join a pug with a dps doing less dps than me i kick me simple
Serial Leaver Detected.
@@manuelaidos hahaha
@@WolfoxLive haha ban inc haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro I love how all these people come out of the woodwork after this announcement and basically expose themselves as leavers lol. Always something to the effect of "YOu eXpeCt mE tO STaY wIth PlAYers tHat Do tAnK dAMagE?" Same old tired excuse that they tell themselves to try and excuse their garbage personalities and attitudes. Here's hoping that blizzard actually starts handing out bans to these chumps but its Blizzard so I ain't gonna hold my breath.
@@manuelaidos Metro is one of the few streamers who call out this stuff. He’s the anti Asmongold. If you join a pug you have the opportunity to leave before the group starts-inspect other players and their achievements if you’re that concerned. Otherwise, go with the group and you all succeed or fail together
Just the fear of potentially getting banned will make people less likely too leave, which is a good thing. You sign up to GROUP content it can't just be me me me mentality all the time.
Very well said there.
No, people just won't pug with ANYONE from certain servers with a poor reputation. Leavers don't impact M+ at all, only pugs, who don't matter. Every issue this moron brings up is solved by making your own static. He just isn't good enough to get into one so he cries on YT to other dipshits like himself for confirmation bias.
.. typical us mindset . The the play should have a popup that tell him or her If You leave you are banned and the player must type the word I agree and enter
@@asdfqwerty-u9n you agree to such termns when loading the game for the first time or after a long while.
just stop being a dick, nothing hard about it.
But people can ninja in and out of raids as they please. I know this doesn't "brick" the raid, but more times than not, once a tank or top dps drops raid, it becomes a house of cards. Here we are again. Everyone is complaining about M+ (LIKE ALWAYS), so they have to do something to look like they care about the 99%....yet everything they do in this system has only ever cared about the top 1. This is scare bluff.
A really simple UI solution to the problem of leavers that even the leavers couldn't argue against: Include data about how many keys a player has been the first one to leave, without finishing, in the last (day / week) when they sign up for a key. Then it's up to the keyholder who to invite, with better data about who they are inviting.
I agree, but I don't think Blizzard would allow that.
Honestly surprised an adding for that hasn't popped up anywhere in the io system
Metro ran miles to make this video, appreciate your dedication man
I really did ha
We don’t know specifics about how they’ve implemented detection & suspension, but they at least acknowledged the issue, so that’s good. I’d need to know the details to discuss anything further - leaving “a great many times” is hilariously vague
Ya and realistically it's likely going to never be known fully, but I'm happy they finally care after all this time.
I think it's intentionally vague for a reason. They probably don't want people to know exactly how they are determining this so people don't attempt to skirt the system. Just a guess though.
100 percent the case.
People are like you suck im better than you then why am i the same score as you or why are we in the same key 🤣🤣 10/10 response i gotta start using
I saw the announcement and then immediately checked RUclips for your reaction to this blue post and you did not disappoint
@@theoriginalzinng haha ya I literally left what I was doing to come home and make this video
Its time for a "vote to quit key" option in the dungeon. I don't want to get stuck in a key for well over an hour with multiple, multiple attempts at a boss and getting no where with everyone being to scared to leave in case they get banned.
I never leave groups and have not done so in all of season 1 so far unless someone has already quit. 99.9% of my keys are pug groups.
That never happens so no need to worry.
this exact situation will never happen ever. And to be brutally honest i myself have left more guild keys or keys with friends than i have pug keys(sometimes people are just delusional, or in my case just an alcoholic and yeah.) Ive never been in or seen a pug key where people spent more than 3 or 5 attempts with no sign of progression just outright quit, its always a group decision.
Where as in guild/friend group environemnt im expected to just be ok with it.
@@_AriseChicken I've never been in a pug when someone has left and it's group decision. Usually max 3 attempts and someone insta leaves....that's not the definition of a group decision.
@@heythereguysitsMetro never happens? I’ve seen this exact scenario myself this season and I’ve seen many guildies going through it. Or are you attempting to insinuate blizzard won’t ban people for that?
@@_AriseChicken Keep up the attitude of "if it hasn't happened to me personally, it never happens". That's a completely sane way to perceive reality!
They can build in some criteria to the key when you list it you have the option for "beat timer" or "completion"... If you list as completion, and someone tries to rage quit early. They get a warning saying your action will be flagged if you leave etc.
That would be great for sure.
@@heythereguysitsMetro But.. that's already the case, no? At least somewhat.
When you start a group in the LFG tool, there is a dropdown called "Goal", which has 3 options.
The default value is "Standard" whatever that's supposed to mean and the other two are "Completion" and "Beat Timer".
This has been in the game for ages already. I mean apart from the "message" ofc. That's not there but you have to options to list a key as completion.
Yes we are specifically talking about people who leave completions "getting a warning saying your actions will be flagged if you leave" (direct quote from the first post.)
My reaction of "that would be great" is in reference to that.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Alright, my misunderstanding then. Maybe I was just too focused on the "beat timer"/"completion" part then.
But yes, that would be an option. What about if you have listed it as "Beat Timer". What could the flag condition be for leaving then?
If the timer is not over and you left.
Makes sense. I tanked a +6 with zero knowledge of what I was doing, used no CDs in a spooky pack and died in about 3 seconds.
Then everyone left. So toxic by all of them.
WTH are Blizzard even doing at this point? How are they even going to determine who is to blame? A jury of my peers?
Its not about blame, just who leaves, I'd imagine.
@@heythereguysitsMetro You missed the point
Why what was the point?
@@heythereguysitsMetro yep
@@heythereguysitsMetro not to mention that the party leader can kick someone and it will be appeaing as someone leaving, their automated systems are bad and never worked. GL!
knowing blizzard,99% of pushers will be auto banned from this LOL
good one
thats a good start! Now add 2k gold reward at the end + 100% guaranteed rng drop at the end of dungeon depleted or not and there we go m+ gives ppl way more motivation to complete keys
ya dont think that's happening
@@heythereguysitsMetro hopefully they will lol they could just also add a raid and dungeon vendor to buy some gears you so long grind and never see them drop
"real life emergencies never happen" - Man with no real life xD
If they happen "a great many times" then you can stop calling them emergencies.
I don't really agree with your point that if you are in a key with someone you are on the same level, sometimes you just do a weekly key for example and you might be way higher level player than the rest, sometimes you are on an alt, sometimes you might be a very high key pusher that just didn't have time to push this season. My point it that not always you are on the same level as the rest of the group because not every key is being done with the purpose of increasing your score, so you end up carrying a lot of very bad players, now that does not mean you should leave ofc.
Great video thanks for the content !
then do your own key
@stercorarius you clearly do not do enough keys if you think that is the solution, as well as you might need to do a faster dungeon like mists or you just skipped a week or something so you don't have a 10.
As I said though this is no excuse to leave a key i am just touching on 1 point he brought up
I'm talking about when you are the same score as people obviously. If you want to do keys lower than your progression, that's on you. But obviously you do so knowing there may be players worse than you, and since you willingly are in a group with them, there would be no excuse for that to be an issue.
This can be a big problem , who decide what is "recklessly", the rest of the players doing the report? can be a useful tool but i dont trust in the user. Shoort story, BFA , 18 Siege, we fuck up the key , the tank ask , hey u wonna keep going? , me and the healer said , sorry no, wanted to upgrade, take care and thanks! ( cause my time is worth too u know) , 10 minutes later , i recieve threats on my whispers , and a call from my guildmaster , " Hey , this person saying u quit the key. what is going on?! ... , as a tank , i experience a few stuff too, " hey guys pliss , let me pull , u pick me as a tank , ik the route!" , "guys pliss , dont fight each other lets have some fun! ", stress, a lot of stress in a game for human behaviour , is that considered recklessly? , and then ppl ask , Why u are calling it out? , guys , u are just saying bad words and trolling the entire key and u asking me why and getting piss? . The Shaman video u show in your own channel , he was getting bait and troll by his own group, can he leave? for saving his sanity and his time?
The only time you should leave is when the group leader wants to stop.
Blizzard literally just agreed with that so, idk what to tell you at this point.
Good luck out there!
@@heythereguysitsMetro i thinks that is a very dangerous statement ( with all respect , big fan of your content) , i dont think blizzard just agree with that , idk why u understand that , they are against extremely toxic behaviour, , like ppl just quiting at the very start of the dungeon for example , is a step but idk why u take that quote, and i think the entire hipotesis of your spreach is based in that every ppl is good at the game and we all know that is not.The only time you should leave is when the group leader wants to stop????? that is a very toxic response
You are misusing the word "toxic" so heavily it makes it no longer interested to respond to, sorry.
Best of luck avoiding the ban!
@@heythereguysitsMetro very mature! that is how ppl can manage rational responses , i think u have serious issues men , ... why u have a channel to open up about a subject and have this answers only with ppl to disagree with u , again , pretty mature , im not a leaver so , im chill :) , and best of luck with the racist report on youtube , have fun!
@@heythereguysitsMetro i dont that kinda of answer is very kind or mature :/ , and im not a leaver ;) so im chill , thanks for the worrie tho!
It's disappointing if this is the only step they take and they think this will fix it. I also don't trust Blizzard's automated systems, they will be either too heavy handed or too lenient based on how they calibrate it since there's no way a human will review all these cases.
I don't expect the number of leavers to change significantly since most people don't leave often enough for this to be a problem, for example I was first to leave in maybe 4 or 5 keys out of easily 230+ this season and I feel very justified in the keys I left and am confident I'll be fine.
Maybe with this problem being brought to the forefront though someone will finally ask Blizzard why key depletion is still in the game, how does it make the game more fun and when they intend to finally get rid of it. Not having your key go -1 because someone left takes a lot of the sting out of someone leaving, the thought that the person who left my key might get punished, honestly, I don't care and it doesn't make me feel better when someone leaves in an unreasonable way.
People who constantly leave dozens of keys all the time and especially those who do it "for fun" should have already be punished before too so I'm concerned that they think this is the only solution they need and a really outdated key depletion system will stay in the game. Guess we'll see.
I think its pretty clear they like the keystone system as it is, so I can't see that changing mid expansion.
I do believe a soloQ is coming though.
Make a vote system. If 3 or more members say it's bricked, keep the key the same level and disband the group without consequence.
I dont think they can do that without a soloQ but I do think that's coming
I am very happy with this change! Something that might help with a mutual disband is something similar to other games like a "Surrender ." vote thing that the party can all vote on and that way it doesn't get flagged if a key gets bricked and everyone agrees to leave.
Ya that would require a soloQ, but I do think that's coming too.
I unironically never expected them to actually do this. I was proven wrong today in a good way. I'm shocked blizzard. Wow.
@@XAn0nymousX0 we all were!
This is a step in the right direction from Blizzard, however what determines an appropriate time to disband for example groups who cannot complete a dungeon based on performance (eg. mechanic failure/failing dps check) without any clear indication of improvement to said performance. I personally have only had one time where the group collectively agreed that we cannot complete a mythic+, other than this one instance its usually one entitled individual who in my opinion deserves a timeout from the premade group finder.
Luckily that never actually happens so not really a concern. If you are running into dozens of runs where people can not complete the dungeon make sure you record them and send them in.
Honest question. As an FFXIV player who is just trying out some WoW for a change of pace, do you guys not have a 'Vote Abandon' function? In FF if 15 minutes have passed and there is no hope (or any other reason). You can vote to disband and no one receives a penalty. Obviously a bit harsher in situations where you have an item that degrades on failure. But still. I feel like the majority should be able to choose - just might lead to griefing key owners I suppose.
@@prismriver659 unfortunately it's not quite the same, it can work that way in regular dungeons but once you plug in a key you're stuck with the group until you clear the dungeon or the run is given up on. It's why leavers are getting penalized now, you can't replace anyone who leaves, dcs, etc. and the one hosting the key is the one paying for it, with no way to declare the key a loss by the party but to fail and downgrade it a level entirely. It's an old system that could use some reworking to reduce toxicity and the punishment but generally it's a hot topic on many fronts. Keys are exclusively pre made as well too so PF is a regular thing, and thus pugs with the normal amount of issues you could expect.
i mean to the people being concerned, you can even before the key starts talk to them and lay out what needs to be happen so that you guys agree on leaving the key behind. and if the terms arent liked by any1 involved then leave before the key even starts. like if its 11+ keys for io then straight up communicate that you dont want to finish it unless its timed and that you consider it out of time if you wipe it at some point. if they others agree then you got yourself a deal if not then leave
Yup, well said here. If this level of communication occurred it would be a much different game.
I'm very curious to see how this will affect your disband rate on your spreadsheet. Will you do anything different with your tracker to show the difference?
nope
Going to be honest. There are some keys I wish would just disband. But other keys, almost exactly the same situation, I am motivated to finish and help the other players improve, and THAT challenge of overcoming the dungeon together, as a team, is greater then upgrading or score or gear. If I contemplate this, I think it's down to my mood. Am I playing for the enjoyment of it? Or am I doing a chore to get score, or gear, or vault slots? My mentality before signing up for the key makes a huge difference.
Ya and that mentality is yours to control. Taking it out on others is the problem here.
i feel the same
Id be very curious on your thoughts on this kind of situation. I left a key the other day right after it was started. I was queuing up for some 12s trying to get some io. I finally got accepted to one, ported to the dungeon, 0 chat interaction, ready check started, countdown started, then key was started. Upon the key starting, it was a 10 and not a 12, so I left. Should I have been forced to do a 10 when the key I was signing up for was a 12 and it was listed in lfg as a 12?
at that point I'd say false advertisement is a pass, though I'd at least bring it up in chat first and keep a record of the interaction before leaving incase they try to report for it. I can get listing someone else's key cause raider io makes a difference in pugs applying but keeping clear communication on posting what key is generally baseline.
"a great many times"
good example though, food for thought
If you have proof that it wasn't an error on your part then ya, I would support you leaving that. I have had a similar situation like that myself actually. I listed my key, and some one else put their lower key in instead. That's not leaving at that point, because the advertised group never actually started.
But ya, that obviously doesn't happen enough to be an issue.
Finally something. It gives me a little hope for the future to help this massively bad problem. And no remorse for anyone who’s gotten suspended over this stuff. It’s clear they have the data
No remorse at all. But ya even this feels like a massive win.
Only thing i dont agree with is the " score is same skill lvl". A 2800 player only pugging and a 2800 player getting it with full premades/voicecom is not on the same lvl of skill.
But I get your point.
Blizzard disagrees, is what I'm saying. So trying to justify leaving because that person who is the same progression level as you is unacceptably bad is not going to work.
Just wanna make clear that im not trying to justify leaving. Just made a comment that getting higher IO pugging is harder then playing with premades/voicecomms. So its not always the same "skill lvl" when you have the same score.
But eitherway not a reason to leave a grp when they key has started
Yes, its always the same "skill level" as far as the game goes. That's what we are talking about here, not your perception as to how they came to obtain the score. Obviously there is boosting too, and that's another reason why that shouldn't be allowed either.
Not only will this reduce m+ toxicity, but it will also rid us of the baddies who accidentally get to a higher score by sheer luck of queueing for a key and dipping as soon as one thing goes wrong on repeat without actually learning anything until they finally find a group that boosts them. Hooray!
I hope so!
Nope it will make sure trashes like you don't get carried by good people anymore cause they won't be wasting their time with the handless lfg players
Nope it will make sure trashes like you don't get carried by good people anymore cause they won't be wasting their time with the handless lfg players
I didn’t have any issues with serial leavers until I started pushing my own +12 keys has a prot pally. Almost all 10 or 11s the group will keep going to finish the key even if there’s multiple wipes but those 12, one mistake or 1 wipe even in a smooth run it’s automatic disband. Yesterday I did a 12 City and it was so smooth until I pulled a bit too big after Fangs and everyone just called it.
Ya its an issue at all levels, for sure. But its worse the higher you go also.
if people are concerned about being "held hostage" in an underperforming pug, maybe a group wide lose condition is necessary. ~50 deaths results in an auto lose for a key, or something to that degree. losing IO should also be incorporated.
@@arozade9192 it's not a concern. You can't be held hostage in a key you willingly sign up for. People are just selfish.
Maybe someone smarter then then me can let me know why cant they just remove the deplete mechanism? I really don’t see why this is in place, in raids you try and try again. Would it be bad to just let people keep attempting the key and as a side affect it will lessen the impact of leavers?
Ya the short answer is, it's their system and they want it in. I can say it's likely to prevent people from just brute forcing keys over and over again. But I'm not sure myself tbh.
what if raider io kept track of how many times a player was the 1st one to leave a key? it'd be great to know if your 3k io carry will leave on the 1st wipe
Ya, not currently possible with the API, but would be great.
Increase the crests that drop from failing a key to the same as timing a key might help a bit with leavers
Sadly no, not at the high levels.
Let's hope they never publish their exact figures on the number of quits that justifies a penalty. As some commenters have already pointed out, there will always be people who stretch the rules to the limit.
oh ya they never will. Common thing for them to make a blanket statement and then just work behind the scenes.
Can’t they just add a / command to vote to end the key? Wouldn’t that save a lot of headache with leaving keys? I would like to see a scaling ban time too. 1 leave is a pass, 2 leaves 1 hour, 3 leaves 2 hours, 4 leave a day, 5 leaves a week. They would just need to find a cooldown period when they fall off.
I don't think its possible with the lack of systems behind it. It would require a soloQ.
Tough line here. I’m okay with if the timer ends you can leave group, but that being said. There’s idiots in all levels of content who have both the gear and io to indicate otherwise. I’ve seen 626 ilvl 2400 io people die to the silliest things. In low to mid range keys, I’m not pushing 12s. And when they do those I don’t think you should be forced to have to stick it through with them for a half hour until the timer is up then you leave without penalty. If you are griefing peoples keys that’s one thing for a temporary ban but all this will do is disincentivise pugging more, when tanks and healers are already a rarer role. Why would anyone want to risk their account when people can be real terrible.
@@nofoxgiven6561 yup. Absolutely don't pug if you feel this way!
@ agreed. Can’t wait for the “where have all the tanks and healers gone” messages to begin 🤣
@@nofoxgiven6561 you think DPS don't ever leave keys?
@@heythereguysitsMetro Of course dps leave keys. Reading through the comments of this video alone and my own experiences tanking and healing, I know its not gonna be the dps using self introspection. They'll double pull a extra pack, not use defensives/kicks and then blame the tank/healer for that and now apparently just report them and get them banned. Not the solution. If blizzard wants to go ahead and manually and *actually* review every report to decide to ban toxic players, great. But we know that's not gonna be the case.
A lot of nuances in how this could be implemented, and whether it has a desired outcome really depends on the nuances. The first thing that comes to my mind are players who simply log off, rather than leave group. This is a common tactic by leavers. How can Blizzard identify this? I think one solution is the rest of the group reports the player who logged, but this also opens up another can of worms....
Ya we know nothing about how they would assess it, but obviously logging off dozens of times a season is no different than leaving. No one is going to be punishing people and simultaneously being tricked by that haha
I love how excited you are. Pure joy on this video.
Absolutely. Show me some one who loves this game more man.
I had a fire mage in a key back in SL (season 2 or 3)...the name was keyburner (i didnt put two together until after this happened).
It was a +15 ToP, the tank did the standard opening pull w/ trash before first boss @ the time. Keyburner (the mage) pulled the boss with pyroblast then left the group. We saw him portal out as the rest of us wiped and an "lol" in the chatbox.
Bout time something like this comes around!!
@@Xan-lc7sd 100 percent. Been way too long
Curious how much certain realms notorious for leaving (we all know which ones) have been affected.
@@andymars650 haha ya would be interesting to hear.
Put in a vote system like removing AFKers in LFD.
Also it’s the Dunning-Krueger affect where these players think they are better than what they are compared to other in the same sample pool.
Ya, but it needs a system behind it, like you mentioned LFD.
Great! I’m looking forward to S2. We’re just messing around on classic hardcore while waiting. Having a good time
Glad to hear that.
Vague text all around also what does gameplay suspension mean? Does it mean they suspend your account or just your ability to pug?
How can they determine if you leave because you're a griefer or because the group is bad? And even so, an account suspension for it?
I've had my fair share of keys bricked by others, and I've left groups. I think I encountered what I'd call a griefer only once or twice , who got so mad he bricked the key. I'm not even counting the verbal abuse flung my way as a tank but there's already an option to report that.
Be on alert then! Better make sure the keyholder is okay with you leaving before you do.
This is a good change. I always try to complete keys, but some days I just have much less patience than others. I think this inadvertently has a psychological effect of encouraging people to take breaks when they start to get tilted, instead of taking that to future groups and becoming the leaver themselves. At least for me, I realize it has that effect.
If it has that effect for other people, I think that’ll be *really* healthy for the m+ pugging scene.
Yes, extremely well said there. Love that perspective on it. You SHOULD take breaks when you are frustrated.
I haven’t seen you this excited to make a video in a long time. This must be better than Christmas for you
Ya man, most excited I have been in a long long time.
Very great change. I would like a "vote to quit key" option and all issues are solved i think.
Im with a 3 man and we have run into multiple issues when progging our keys where we just hit a boss we arent killing . The group mutually agrees the key is dead. Wouldnt want us to get banned when we all agree to leave.
Add a vote to quit so we arent legit stuck on a boss we cant kill and all is well.
I agree about the vote, but I don't think it can exist given how groups are formed atm.
@heythereguysitsMetro I don't now either. Best I can think of is tying it to the elemental that shows up when you go over time. That way the group gave an effort at least and can leave? But then you run the risk of a troll dying repeatedly to run timer out. Just would suck to be punished when the group agrees to leave the key
METRO!!!! corrrr this is gonna change mythic+ going forward awesome and awesome from you to love this
Ya man, let's hope so!
I have said this since this conversation came up in the streams, and I don't believe I had heard a solid argument against it. But Blizzard needs to implement a system similar toFFXIV's vote abandon system where if the majority of the group agrees to disband, there's no penalty
Ya, its an ideal situation, but I dont think it can structurally exist right now given you can just walk in any key with no rules about forming the group. I think this requires a soloQ. Just because of how the game works.
"Are you sure that you're not the problem?"
No offence, Metro, I love your videos and your attitude on most things related to Mythic+, but this is kind of a surface-level way to look at it. People do lower keys than the level they're at sometimes to farm crests, or to farm a specific item, or they actually need the key and somebody invites a friend who they have themselves literally boosted through keys (which I know personally you can very much do up to at least like 11s) who then ends up adding endless amounts of stress to what should be a really easy time, or somebody disconnects multiple times and just makes every actual friction point in a key so much more stressful for others, or they only do damage and let party-wide damage go through when they're the only kick and/or CC left, or they ignore a skip the party is doing and/or ninja pull recklessly etc etc. There's loads of reasons for a person who joins a key to be kinda justified in leaving a key prematurely, and there's loads of other ways for people to grief a key beyond leaving it. I think the "respect" for somebody's keystone should go both for leaving and performance, to a degree (which kinda works as a self-policing concept in higher keys already, to be honest).
I think the kind of depressing part of this "solution" is that Blizzard just wants to smite people's accounts, for POTENTIALLY unjustified reasons, instead of...I dunno, putting in some effort and reworking the absolutely idiotic keystone system, where only the keyholder takes a risk, which makes LFG and "giving people a chance" stupid risky; and it's completely binary, where you either time your key and get a higher key and/or rio...or you deplete your key, completely throw away all the time you already spent in the dungeon, AND have to re-run it on a lower key level you don't need, and if you don't finish the depleted key, you literally get N O T H I N G from it, AND have to spend a ridiculously inflated amount of gold to repair your gear on top of it (and, as a bit of added comedy, we still get 50-ish gold from finishing a dungeon? lmao?).
I don't particularly disagree with punishing habitual Mythic+ leavers (especially because these bans are NOT handed out to anybody who's ever left a key; I have some friends who do it semi-often who didn't get banned, so these bans have to be handed out for some EGREGIOUS behaviour), but I wish Blizzard looked into the Mythic+ keystone system more comprehensively than just "durr you're banned".
Disagree obviously, but thanks for leaving your thoughts!
metro is toxic himself and not good for community, his takes are just NPD rants
@@heythereguysitsMetro Disagree with what? You disagree with the keystone system not being perfect? You disagree with there being nuance in people leaving a run? You disagree that everybody in the party should have respect for the keyholder's key (unless they're the key holder, in which case, y'know, they're already "providing" the key, which I accept, but is also innately an issue with the system)? So you think some people are correct in disrespecting somebody else's key, and should intentionally grief it?
Alright then. I don't get what's disagreeable with what I said, 'cause I didn't even disagree with anything you said (from what I can remember); all I was saying is that Blizzard banning leavers is a band-aid that doesn't actually solve pretty much anything, and knowing their history of automation, they will not handle this M+ leaver banning thing perfectly either.
@@kaliyvga1426 Yeah, it's a little disheartening. I'm not supporting letting toxic people continue to play the game without punishment, so it's weird to see him "disagree" with me just wanting Blizzard to work on the keystone system a liiiiiiittle bit more than just "we'll ban leavers". It'll vindicate some ('cause yay, other people getting banned is true happiness), upset others, and at the end of the day, LFG will still be toxic af. It solves almost nothing (though I'm sure the undergeared mole people looking for boosts in LFG will just be happy that the people constantly leaving their runs will finally be punished).
@@Frawt blizzard created a good environment for people leaving as well, the rewards that you get if you over time the key are horrible, tank and healer role is way harder than dps (so as a healer or tank, i do think leaving is okay if group is bad), key downgrading is bad as well. Marcellius made a good video about M+, leavers are not the problem at all. Also, automatic system is really bad and can be abused
I think that this great! Iv actually had real life emergencies happen. One was a call to tell me my horse had go through a fence and needed a vet ASAP so they do happen!
@@Lilligirl319 oh ya absolutely. My father died in the middle of a key, and my mother broke her leg in the middle of a key. So I know they happen for sure.
@@heythereguysitsMetro oh wow thats insane sorry for your loss metro
@@heythereguysitsMetro aww that sucks, I’m sorry 😢
I don't completely agree with your comments about joining keys which are the same as your IO/skill level. I recently made a new alt who is lowered geared and I've had to join lower level keys as part of the gearing process regardless of my mains IO level. Doings 8s I can see the difference in skill level, just this moment a tank in a group I joined for an 8+ mist left near the end after countless players dying to avoidable damage and I don't blame him. We had like 5 deaths to the dodge ball ability at the second boss and this continued through the dungeon
I was mostly speaking about progression keys.
The spreadsheet has been prepared for this day.
@@Dom-zy1qy literally true.
why do you want to finish a bricked key i dont quite understand?
Explained it in the video.
In regards to people complaining about getting into groups with people that don't know dungeon mechanics, I feel like a better way for new players to not be funneled into keys they do not understand is to only allow keys to be upgraded if they have already done the dungeon at that level. So if you timed Dawnb reaker on 2 and it is your first key ever, you can have the option of doing dawnbreaker at a higher level or you can now do a 2 on one of the other dungeons that you have not done yet. If you have timed everything on a 2, then you will upgrade a random dungeon to a three or a four. That way you don't end up getting a key for a 10 and you've never stepped foot in the dungeon. If you have only pushed other people's keys but not your own, you would be eligible to upgrade your key on those that you've timed
That's not a bad idea, but its a huge derivation from how the system would work and would obliterate early progression. I don't think its on the table.
This is unironically why Blizzard makes us all sign the social contract from time to time. People don’t take it seriously and it’s funny that Blizzard is finally enforcing it.
It’s sad that people have this mindset that just because they can ruin someone’s gameplay experience without punishment, that’s just okay.
Ya, really said, but glad to see they are finally understanding it better.
So how does it work? Do I have to report leavers or do they track the leavers trends and deal out bans automatically? Good intention for sure. Wouldn't hurt if there was a deserter debuff for the first person who leaves a key while the time is still ticking for like an 1 hour and make it increase if happens often. Vote to disband system would be good too not to mention the solo queue.
@@wiecaszekpawel ya I assume it's based on reports. Not sure.
Well, they do have every single event logged into their database so it might be possible to generate a report like “ How Many times someone left the group while still having time left on the clock (even if it is not enough to actually time the key)”.
It might be a coincidence but I've had more ALT F4-ers this week than just outright leavers. I think this could potentially prompt people to not leave and just alt f4 every time to potentially dodge a ban, as it would be a rather risky move from Blizz ban people because they "dc'd" despite these players receiving reports. I'm curious how will they handle that. This is overall definitely a step in the right direction.
What happens in, for example, League of Legends, when you dc? You still receive a penalty, right? I mean the bans clearly target people who leave keys repeatedly and it’d have to be such an unfortunate coincidence that you unintentionally dc’d 35 times in a row. If that’d actually happen, think about changing your ISP or even about participating in group content with that kind of an internet connection.
I don't imagine it would be any different. If they do it a ton, they would be penalized.
but this is a good initial step, however there are many unknowns, what is "great many times"? can that be quantified? How they decide that someone intentionally harm ? I ask because it is very important, if a human decides this, it can be expected that more or less we have similar grasp of what answer to these questions are, however, human doing it is more like very isolated cases and without AI doing this, it can never go as a standard tool in game (such as in CS for example), they need to define these things and tune in the future, so that it can be frequently applied.
agreed.
I will say that the action blizz is taking is a step in the right direction but to add to this announcement they 100% need to add a "vote to disband" system within the group that players can initiate to not allow players to get suspended over a mutual disband.
Similar to leagues system where its a 80/20 split or something aka 4 out of 5 agree to disband would be a mutual disband
Ya, that would require a soloQ but I think this is a huge step even if that doesn't come. It just depends on how they assess the situation.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I suppose thats true. I still think it would work fine even with the current implement. I sign up for a key, the key holder agrees to take me. Another invited player rage quits over the first pull, the key holder initiates a mutual disband so the only punished player is the leaver and not the rest of the group. That was what I was leaning towards. Anyways I hope your classic experience has been going well this time around
The vote to disband system already exists in the game, you type in /party chat if you want to continue or stop and everyone gets a chance to respond vs someone hitting ALT+F4 or leaving without saying a word.
@@AlicenW0nd3rland They are not tracking that currently, its purely based on reports, so that is not really an issue currently. Even if they will track it, then there would be no point in tracking anything but the first person to leave. Even if you are the last boss and a dps leaves and everybody else is begging the remaining group to finish the dungeon, if somebody decides to leave at that point they should not be punished in my opinion.
@@apotheonffxiv yes you can use the chat but it's much slower to get the response than a "vote to disband" button that could throw up a small window a kin to the ready check window in case group doesn't agree to disband instead of losing time to discussing the matter (granted some could have the discussion while still playing the key but not everyone thinks that way)
In regards to knowing if the group was collectively disbanded, or if one person leaves is probably not hard for them to know.
They of course have all that data. No doubt they have a system implemented to notify on accounts that have a high quit rate.
At least, this is what I would assume.
I for one am really happy about it. It's about time they do something.
People that leave constantly are unhinged, and offer up pure destruction to the game experience.
I'd rather all the people who quit constantly leave the game for good, then stay and continue doing it.
Glad you are happy!
I'm a mythic raider, but i got a late start to M+ and i'm not comfortable in them yet, i've done an 8 and it went fine because the group carried my, my damage was fine but my mechanics were lacking. There's a reason i still try to find 4-6's when i do keys, because i might have 630ilvl, but i don't know the mechanics, i'm still at that level despite doing so much more dps.
Why should i feel superior when anyone can look up my M+ score and see i've never even done the dawnbreaker :D
This certainly was not targeted at some one like you lol
what if blizzard were to implement a vote system for mythic + liken to kicking someone.
Right click group "Vote to disband"
And if you get 3 out of 5 you can.
Ya, I believe that would require a soloQ system.
jepp, im one of them. i quit wow few years ago due to the toxic environment around m+ dungeons. i wouldn't say people just leaving was the main reason i left the game, but it was def a big part of it. another big reason is that how quick people are to kick others in normal mytic runs even when its not their fault at all. what pisses me the most of with dungeon runs, is that you got a deserter buff for being kicked from a group, even when they had no legit reason to kick you.
Ya vote kick in normal dungeons shouldn't be allowed tbh.
Usually people just go offline instead of outright leaving, how is Blizzard going to know if it's a fake dc or not?
No they don't lol
no if they go offline other players can easily right click their name and report them. and they will get banned after leaving some groups. but if they leave group and put everyone on ignore.. theres no way to report them now
@@heythereguysitsMetro but they do.
No they don't. I have every single key recorded for years and there is single digit people who go offline. Everyone leaves
They could avoid banning people if blizzard adds in features that locks players in the key and the only way to get out of the key is a vote for forfeit is sent out by the leader and is unanimous from the entire group. Or give players who leaves a key 24 hour lockout debuff that prevents them from accessing group content.
That all requires a soloQ system, which I do think is coming.
Great timing on this post... I had my first griefer on AraKara last night. Did the opening- stair pull and they leave mid pull. We all reported them and here we are today 😂
@@monkeychunkey record them and send runs like that in! It may actually help now!
i also will leave arakara if im playing dps and the first pull isnt all the way to the big spider
@@Gleobrew really digging yourself a hole here man.
So what about the guys that just Alt-F4? Technically they never left the key and had unfortunate internet issues, right? Or here's the new type of leavers, they just stand still and wait for the group to disband then report all of those people. Lets hope this doesn't happen but I suspect they will find new and interesting ways to quit if they end up getting the ban hammer too often.
Why do you think Blizzard ONLY looks at people who right click and leave groups? They obviously are going to be looking at any players who regularly disrupt groups, no matter how it plays out.
Only once in the whole season I've been the first to leave a key. I stay even when I know from the very first pull we won't make the timer. I don't run anything beyond 10s or 11s because I only do Mplus to get gear/crests for raiding gear. I get auto invites to any key because I'm a tank, and my char is listed as 637, so I don't struggle to get into pugs. But also, I don't pug that much, I prefer to run with my guildmates. In any case, when I pug, it is not strange when I get thanked for "not leaving the key", so, yes, I'm aware that tanks leaving after the first pull is an issue. My friends complain a lot about the tanks they get on their keys.
I say all this, to avoid being flagged as a leaver, a rager or an elitist when I say that you are wrong. Having people with similar score doesn't mean anything. It doesn't represent how they are going to play in a key. Groups with the same composition and same score on the same key can and most of the time will perform wildly different, at least on this and lower brackets. Now, I would avoid saying "bad players" and "good players", who are you to say who is good or bad? That is totally subjective to context. That's why I say "perform different". I encourage you to stop using that language, because you yourself in other contexts could be considered not a good player.
Now, regarding the amount of tanks and healers leaving, is a natural consequence of how very few people are playing these roles. Yes, the behavior is bad, I'm not justifying it, but the issue is the philosophy of the design that is encouraging this kind of behavior. Being a tank or a healer should be a more attractive role, or less punished, so more people are encouraged to play these roles like in some previous seasons. If I'm a healer, and I see that a bunch of avoidable, cc'able and interruptible damage is passing and making my life way harder, and as a consequence, get flamed, I would feel encouraged to leave that group.
In any case, this is a community behavior that Blizzard shouldn't address with bans and suspensions. Becuase, right now, even knowing that I'm not a leaver, I help people finish their keys, etc. I really don't feel like pugging. We don't know the exact criteria, yes, you can say that someone that is reincident, or get constant reports, but we know Blizzard uses automated suspensions even when they say they don't, even when they say they review each case. I can't risk getting suspended and leave my guild without a tank for Raids.
You will see less tanks and healers queuing in the following days.
Thanks for leaving your thoughts.
Wait so I can’t get declined on my rogue, queue for the same key on my 635 resto sham and then hearth out right as the key is dropped anymore? Outrageous and unjust change!
@@CharlieVictor212 hahaha
I know someone. Its not a small ban either, they did 10 day bans. I would assume for a new rule it would have been 48 hour warning shots but they got the cannon. The person I know said they would "be the first to leave occasionally". The truthfulness of that claim about it only being occasionally I don't know but yeah, they got hit with a 10 day for disruptive gameplay. If a 10 day is the first offense I wonder what the escalation will be for repeat offenses
Lemme know if you can get them to screen shot the email and send it over!
@heythereguysitsMetro I would love to but its a complicated relationship and I worry if I ask for a screenshot it'll come off as gloating. I can tell you the bans rolled out this weekend/earlier this week before this post came out. They got banned until Dec 4th and the only reason was "disruptive gameplay". We had initially assumed it was them being reported for being toxic or using a mouse jiggler to stay logged in but this post pretty much confirmed it was for leaving.
Yep, done with Pugging. Only Guild runs from now on. I dont let me held Hostage with 30+ deaths befor the first boss.
@@Chris-hw9vv lol
hopefully this somewhat hints that there will be more support features in some shape or form within the expansion for a more policed pug environment. Super happy for the solo players.
@@Bambaboozled I think it's coming for sure.
The way they know is probably through the rest of the group reporting the leavers. My crew does that to people who leave a perfectly timeable key. If you leave and get 4 reports, and this happens repeatedly, then they know just by the timing of the reports. Report the dirt bags!
When I pug a key and get into a subpar group, I just take the opportunity to practice some of my skills, and try to give constructive feedback so the group learns something and comes out better than they started. Teaching is a great way to get better yourself.
Ya gonna have to start. But if it's only reports I worry there will be a lot of fake reports too.
This doesn't seem manageable. Does Blizz plan on monitoring all logs everytime someone complains about a leaver? If it is an automated system, how will the account for teams that collectively decided to leave a key? Will the implement a new voting system? The idea sounds good but implementation will be tough.
Probably will be tough, but that's their job to figure out, not ours.
Yeah the leavers after 1 dead are making it so the learning experience is cut off from happening before it happens. and often these people spam harassment even before the run even started and throughout the entire run somehow finding time spamming the chat how much everyone sucks.
I am never going to run keys above 10. So my score will stay 2500 because 10 gives max rewards. I would stay in a key forever if it means i get my 3 crests. But most people leave after 1 dead/wipe no matter if it's still time possible.
Ya, hopefully that will be lessened now.
i gess what it comes down to is do we want keys to be competitive or casual ?? it can't be both
It's competitive.
its already been competitive wayyy before this annoucement came out
@@paolochella1623 so why are we complaining about competitive players not wanting to painfully try to carry players that won't help themselves understand how the mechanics work?
Because its not about INDIVIDUALS its about TEAMS. Do you see other teams throwing each other under the bus midseason when things don't go as well as they may have liked?
About the unexpected real life emergencies, they do happen, although not a lot. I had a key once with a duo I invited, one of them heard his granny died mid key. He just had to leave, we finished the key 4-man in honor of poor granny though.
Ya my father died mid key, and my mother fell and broke her leg mid key. Two times in 8 years, so obviously not frequently enough to be concerned.
dude was lying lmao
@@heythereguysitsMetro sorry to hear that man.
I'm very happy that blizzard made these changes, but the sad thing is. I have no friends to run PvE content other than world quest, delves, campaign or collecting old transmogs and etc. But oh well. There isn't not much I'm missing out on, rather watching RUclips seeing people progress so far. This is me not complaining but surprised with these updates :D
These updates are specifically for the Pug Mythic+ world. No friends needed for that haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro Solo content?
Huh?
It's probably based on volume of "Left" keys.
I imagine it would have to be more than just that, but maybe!
Hey, bro. So i wanted to take a couple days and really think about the sort of things that make me leave keys before i responded. Im a multiclass healer, fwiw. Typically top 1pct player, but dont chase titles. I dont enjoy the game once bolt casts start almost one shotting people, so i stop a little before i max out. This season i didnt play the first few months due to the state of the game. Last few weeks i came baxk and have been doing 8-10s gearing up. So if im in an 8 grim batol with players with a curse dispel, and they either dont know how to use it, dont have it talented, or refuse to use it consistently, and the group starts wiping as a result due to tank pulling big in that hallway and nobody dispelling or helping kick the channel that stuns players (closed mind i think?) how am i not warranted to leave this key?
Or lets say im playing with a warrior tank that that does not have even remotely acceptable uptime on shield wall or ignore pain and hea getting insta clapped on pull or needing cocoon on cd? Now these players have around the same score. Perhaps this is a niche youre talking about, but i absolutely assure you my friend, i am not dog shit like this. Ive been playing the game at a reasonably high level for years. I dont make those sorts of mistakes. Those are a complete lack of preparedness and understanding of their classes, or complete negligence. Do i owe them a carry because they sigend up with a decent score? What if you lied in your interview about being able to do something very basic, does the emplooyer have to keep you around?
Sorry, but you have said a few things that really do nothing to dispel this idea that you are not deserving of groups like this, and I will stand firm in that if you are regularly running into groups like this, they are likely feeling the same way about you.
Best way to prove it though is send in some footage of your keys!
Either way, yes you DO owe them at least the full time of the key, even if they make some mistakes along the way, just as others will give you that grace to make mistakes.
We ALL make mistakes, and unless you ARE in title range, you should recognize that you yourself have a lot of growth to do as a player.
Give others that room as they do to you, and finish keys you sign up for, especially if they are lower.
@@heythereguysitsMetro metro, im a 43 year old man that plays these games to relax and get away from real life. idk if you get a lot of people coming into your comments lying to you or what, but to assume that everyone is must suck. we arent talking about mistakes here. i make mistakes all the time, everyone does. theres a distinct difference between accidentally stepping in a swirly, or misusing a cooldown or something, and literally not even having your dispel bound or refusing to use it. there are about 15 or more opportunities to use it in that dungeon. when someone doesnt use it, they either dont know how the game works, or dont care. i do not fall into either of those categories. i take the time to learn exactly what my utility does and where it is useful in every dungeon i play in, for every character i play. these guys arent doing the same thing. im not even talking about skill issues, bro. im talking about literally not givin a fuck about anyone but themselves. ive watched your stream countless times. ive seen you end up with players that are dramatically below your preparation and skill level. does that mean its your fault and you are that bad? of course not. thats insane bro
@@HeIIaAverage Okay, so let's go a different way with this. You say you have watched me encounter this, and frankly I disagree that I have, but let's assume I have.
What are your thoughts on how and why I handle them when I run into them then?
Why do you believe my actions and thoughts differ from yours?
@@heythereguysitsMetro ive seen people in your keys that are lost. you are not lost, not in the least. but to answer your question, i guess the easiest way to describe how you handle this when you run into it is, you just bare the burden. you carry people. i would imagine that the reason you handle the situation differently from me is because perhaps several things. maybe you have a genuine desire to help people in the game. for whatever reason, you also really want to finish every key, even keys that are only for score that no one needs for gear. i think its also fair to say that you dont share the same strong dislike for sloppy play, as long as the key is finished/timed etc. idk
@@HeIIaAverage Cool, well thanks for thinking about it. Respect you man, thanks for being respectful back towards me.
I would just encourage everyone to try their best in every key and realize that in the pug world, there are players who play bad and many times you can succeed even if they do play bad.
There is a line that we all must draw for ourselves how far you are willing to let that go, and I have a line myself.
I just never leave, because that doesn't help anyone, including myself.
Big W. But I do want a forfeit option -> majority vote to forfeit passes = leaving does not lead to punishment. // you rage quit in spite of failed vote -> you get punished harder.
Ya that would be for a soloQ if they end up doing that, which I imagine they will now.
I was considering stopping playing wow next season altogether because of how difficult it is to pug m+. We'll see if this makes any difference
I mean its still going to be difficult obviously. Just may be slightly less leavers.
hey man, my laptop is broken. i'm still using it because i cannot afford another PC at the moment. I randomly get blue screens at any point of the run and there isnt anything i can do except restart the computer and hop back on
I'm sorry to hear that, but hope you can find a good deal with Black Friday sales!
They should implement a voting system just like a leaving system. If the group decides to quit the run the key holder starts a vote and if the majority votes yes, the group can end with zero penalty. Otherwise if someone just leaves the system determines it was an abandoned group. If the key holder leaves, it's less of a penalty because it technically is their loss not the others.
Vote to kick/Vote to End. The Vote to End could have a reason box where you can report a player as well.
That would create a leger of names with how many strikes against them. They could do a system where once a player hits a certain amount of leaves they are:
1: Warned
2: 3 day banned + warning
3: 1 week ban + Perma ban warning
4: Perma Banned.
@@Deadscheme ya that would require a soloQ but I do think that's still in the works too.
another I can agree with... some sort of vote system in place..
I'm still fairly new to Mythic+ after only recently returning to WoW since Cata. I am finally pushing into 10s having achieved my first 3 timed runs last night. I have been pugging mostly as a prot warrior and can honestly say no matter how bad the group has gotten, I have yet to be the first person to leave. What you say about respecting others is so true. Glad Blizz is taking steps to try and discourage this behaviour.
So glad to hear a player new to the system agrees. I'm glad Blizzard finally sees it too!
Accountability is an important aspect to be able to keep up a good community, cant see how (if this goes through) people see this as a negative.
Ya you can tell the people who find it negative are the ones with a penchant for leaving and blaming others.
Wonder how that is suppose to be enforced? What if you are playing with a guild group trying to push the keyes and happen to be the one who leaves the run first too many times in the row? Are you going to be baned cause blizz decided you can't agree with your friends the key is bricked and you don't want to run it anymore?
I believe this is entirely based on reports. I don't see anything suggesting anything else, so its not an issue for any premade scenario.
why would you be leaving a key when in a full premade group of friends/guildies unless it's an emergency or a situation otherwise out of your control, or group agreed to quit over 3rd party comms like discord? I at least some what get the mentality in pugs as it's people you don't know and wont have to interact with again but when it's friends/guildies you're creating resentment towards yourself and just alienating yourself from the group by intentionally leaving just cause you don't want to finish the key while the rest do (unless you have set some hard boundary before hand that you will not finish any key that isn't timed which I suppose is fair but personally I would just not invite you to my group then). Anyway I assume this only applies to those who get reported for leaving and usually friends/guildies don't report each other because that would just potentially be reducing your pool of friends to play with
@@nahnahkranoth6849 ya no clue but certainly only for pugging.
Why are you leaving the party if you're playing with a guild group? just all go out of the instance to lower the key and try again.
@@apotheonffxiv @madDjakni @heythereguysitsMetro yeah get the point! I meant leaving the instance rather than group, if that will be checked in regards to people leaving the group then it is fine by me! Not pugging anymore but do get the struggle as I was doing that before- we only had small group prior to joining current guild and had to pug 1 - 2 people. Still would prefer that to be report system than automated decision.
Although this is massive step in the right direction, I have some worries with Blizzard's system that determines who is leaving keys intentionally to grief and groups that just call that they key is over and all of them agree to stop. Is it the party chat that determines that? I feel like a more in depth explanation from them would have been very good.
They wont give that because people will be able to play around it then. That's a common thing they do when it comes to bans.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah, my main concern with this system is if the wrong people get punished, or the people that need to be punished, aren't. But, hopefully everything works and M+ starts healing from all the damage that has been done throughout the years.
my only problem with is how vague they are with the wording. like i leave alot of keys at higher level keys when they brick like does that mean we are at risk of being banned for not completing it? if its for people who leave just to screw over people then im cool with that but if it starts to affect people at higher keys its going to get bad. just a side note just because a key is still timeable doesnt mean that it isnt a horrific run to be in. the amount of times ive joined a 10 on my alts to people with the correct gear and ilvl and they are still just bad is way to high.
Then stop pugging!
@heythereguysitsMetro its not always an option. Due to my wotk schedule i have to pug some of my keys.
@@evolburd5768 dont listen to this guy, hes delusional "stop pugging" is such a horrible comeback to the point you just made, yeah let me form a push team for my 4th alt so i can do this 12. 99% of the people agreeing with this haven't even seen the Guile affix first hand and get mad when people leave their keys when theyre doing 800kdps and just want a carry. the amount of times ive left a pug because the tank thinks this is hardcore classic and takes 3 pulls to pull to the first spider in arakara is insane.
@@evolburd5768 then you will need to consider the new rules of the pug world.
@@Gleobrew expect to be suspended!
From what I understand, these bans are targeting very specific people. The odd verbiage is because apparently there are people who run hundreds of keys and all they do is immediately leave after the key holder puts the key in. I have a screenshot of someone doing it to me back in October, but I'm not sure how to send it to you.
Based on the wording it seems to be more than that.
Thanks for the video, it can be start of a good change. Ofc as some people and also you noted there's some flaw such as fake report, solo que and disband vote.
But I'm telling it to the people who disagree with this starting change to happen. all in one this is a good action, if you want to feedback and suggest ways to improve it then you're welcome, but don't call this entirely a wrong decision "because it's possible" in a few cases some people may abuse it etc etc. it will be a good step for a bigger change.
Also I'm looking forward to see what's the duration of the penalty and ofc i like if blizzard uses human resource instead of generated auto messages in answer of those who may gets ban and wish to review the case
Glad to hear, and I agree!
While this is good, they should also focus on teaching people how to play and deal with the insane number mechanics happening in a dungeon.
There is a reason why these people leave the groups other than being an asshole, it's not always about low dps.
There are so many people even in higher keys like 12s and 13s where you generaly expect everyone to know every single mechanic, that fail miserably to the most basic mechanics.
But maybe forcing people to not leave and play until the end, even if the group description didn't have "completion" for weekly vault, will over time teach people how to play?
maybe!
Should not be a ban but an hour deserter. I’m not finishing a key to fill someone’s vault for gear they don’t deserve. They get free gear and don’t know mechanics. Huge repair bills and reagents. Fuck that
better stop pugging then! early reports are its a multiday ban
@ say by to mythic then will be a waiting game .
@@heythereguysitsMetroloser casual mentality whos fun comes at the expense of other peoples fun
@@avinion amen
@@heythereguysitsMetroEnjoy pugging when only trashes like you will remain cause human beings carrying you only do premades runs now :)
For me, it's not the solution, it's more fair to put a timer for a key to be depleted or change, for example, for 5 min at the start of the key, the key cannot be deplete. It allowed ppl to try thinks in the start of the key, to see if the groups can done the dungeon without issues. For me, play with 4 ppl i never played with and do a content who need to be coordinate or knowing mecanics it's already a draw back, yeah score exist, it's not a great source of info to rely on.. I think this decision gonna make creating groups a lot more horrible in some ways and more conflict if the key does't go well to.
Don't think this is a situation where they are open to alternative solutions tbh.
I'm unsure how to feel about this honestly. Not because I frequently leave groups as the first player or out of toxicity. In fact, I stay in the vast majority of obviously failed runs until someone else leaves but I have absolutely 0 trust in Blizzards automatic detection systems at this point.
Just yesterday I've read a post on Reddit about a guy who was suspended for the title of this LFG listing that was something like "+12 going to +14 after". He even attached a screenshot of the email stating exactly this. Now, this could ofc be a hoax but I've read too many stories about similar automated unjustful bans. Streamers, such as Asmon, even intentionally mass reported themselves to check if the system requires any kind of human acknowledgement and it just doesn't.
I honestly doubt that Blizzard utilizes actual human reviews to determine if a leaver was a toxic leaver or just some DC/RL incident. It'll be yet another automated system that most likely won't be properly calibrated/reviewed.
This begs the question how this system operates. Does it just operate on reports? Does it just detect the first leaver? Does it analyze the chat afterwards? Does it count the deaths/time/remaining time/reason of deaths/dps/hps/CDs used/mitigation used? Does it account for the key level? Does it analyze how many keys this individual completes/leaves on average?
If it operates on reports that's an issues I don't think I'd have to explain.
If it operates on who has left first... well.. somebody will inevitably be the first one to leave without any kind of surrender vote system. So it does have to analyze the chat to see if the group came to an agreement.
TLDR; I'm highly sceptical about this. It's a great thing if it works out as we hope it'd work out but I'm just sceptical about the actual implementation because Blizzard really hasn't been close to their A game when it comes to QA in the recent past...
A lot of questions on how it will work, but the way to feel about it is highly optimistic because it breaks an 8 year long silence on M+ pugging. If you aren't optimistic, I don't believe you when you say you don't leave keys.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I mean, I've seen how the automated banning system works, I've seen how well QA and CS works at Blizzard since TWW and I've seen that Blizzard employees were not competent enough to handle a simple merge conflict in their version control for the anniversary patch.
So I'm highly sceptical about ANY new feature they're trying to implement (such as housing). Blizzard is absolutetly not bringing their A game as of late. More like an... E game at this point.
My scepticism doesn't stem form an issue with the concept of banning/punishing leavers. My scepticism stems from my distrust in Blizzards technical competence at this point.
I also didn't say I don't leave keys. I do occasionally leave very obviously untimeable 12+ keys, after multiple wipes. But I'm very rarely the first one to leave. Not saying it never happens but I'm 100% confident that it's not even close to be considered by any kind of system or human.
But you're ofc free to believe whatever you want.
Oh ya, to be this is their A PLUS game if anything. Balance issues aside, everything they have done lately has been 10/10, and the warcraft direct has me SOLD on the future. But that's a different discussion for a different video.
For now, its just about the leavers, and we should all be very excited that they finally care after all this time with nothing.
@@heythereguysitsMetro It's very odd to hear this because I've never played a more bug infested expansion than TWW, let alone the unintentional revert of changes by "overpatching" it (merge conflict issue).
But back to the topic - I know you have a whole excel sheet of leavers but how many of those leaves would you describe as "unwaranted" or "toxic"?
Because honestly, this season I didn't have a single one. In DF S3 I've had 2. One of which was a guy who was obviously griefing and left 1 sec after the key was started.
I look at all leaving as a problem so I don't know. But it's a lot for sure. We have had some crazy keys this season.
i dont really care about people leaving keys tbh no point in getting worked up about that. thus said im not really big on pushing either. if i time then i time if not then it wasnt meant to be anyway. im not worried about being held hostage in "low iq" groups, im the worst hostage =). imo its better to restrict depletion and let people the freedom to leave
@@Aleksej-op2se well no offense but you likely would care more about this if you were more interested in pushing haha
Its so simple.
Joined 100 Groups.
Completed 45
Left 5 not as first Person after 70% of Timer
Left 10 as first Person after 70% of Timer
Left 20 as first Person after 10% of Timer.
Left 20 as first Person after 100% of Timer.
Observe -> Ban!
Ya its really easy to identify in my eyes. I just don't think its that cut and dry though, because what if all 100 of those were with people they already know and were in discord together talking about being okay with that person leaving and that the key is over.
Its always been a difficult topic to assess.
@@heythereguysitsMetro ist just how to identify. I have no problem with the need to report that guy.
Agree to disband could be like the vote to kick thing...All players vote to quit the run and GG. But im sure it isnt that simple...or maybe it is lol idk
Its simple, it just requires a system for it to function. Currently, you can walk into a M+ with no rules. You don't even have to do it with 5 people, so there obviously can't be a system to vote to leave without rules about forming the group too.
That would all require a SoloQ system and I do think its coming.
I was tanking Dawnbreaker +10 key. My group was horrible... I never leave keys, but being hostage at last boss, with 1hour 10min overtime and 129 deaths, my patient almost broke...
And these people had 2300 ish score. I was speechless, it was mindblowing how people could die so much. If only i had enough selfheal i could solo the boss.
Great they doing something to m+, but they MUST throw timer and key depletion in the trash! Imagine not having timer and key depletion. So you can play with friends or even pugs, stop mid fight maybe figure out tactic to handle the pulls and boss. The timer and key depletion is making me hate people... :S I just wanna have fun and push keys, not hearthattack looking at timer, and cant go to the toilet mid key or open the door if it rings.
They can also throw key depletion but keep timer, but the timer is only for ekstra score or something, and they key will upgrade if you complete it, even if it took 2 hours. Also make it so if you wanna do a 12, u must have completed an 11key of the same dungeon. That will also slow the progression abit and make sure u havent just got ppl in ur group that been boosted.
Also if someone can make an addon with a personal banlist, that would be nice.
@@norskevikingen7189 no indication they are changing the keystone system, but they should. If you believe you are playing with people below your skill level stop pugging or record the runs and send them in and we will see for ourselves. 9/10 times people are saying the same thing about you honestly.
I don't think blizzard is trying to force anyone to stay in a key beyond depletion, this punishment is being aimed at those who enter a key and after only 1 wipe or maybe even one person dying they bail out and the timer is only 3-5 minutes into the dungeon, it is silly to think they are trying to make you stay for hours.
Hmm. That would be a good idea. Once timer hits zero it doesn't matter maybe? Won't count you as leaving?
@@WritesFantasy great idea in theory, but then someone will grief like hell just to get it to zero.
@@heythereguysitsMetro sure, but not all have time to connect with guild and such. For me and many others cant join in on guild raids, and m+ group anymore because busy in rl. So its pug or no wow.
And its not thinking people are below me, everyone do mistakes. Ofc its allowed to mess up. But with 2300+scores it should be safe to assume that people have basic knowledge of the dungeon.
It should be a progress system so people who have completed lets say a nectrotic wake 4, cant jump in or get a 10-11 necro Key from vault. But a slow and steady, where you complete all on 4 then 5, then 6 etc. Think everyone benefit from that.
The timer and death counts should be removed. Psychologically speaking i think it effect us much more then we think. I hope im a decent and patient guy, but even i have to log off retail sometimes and play hardcore classic with pugs, because m+ making me hate people sometimes. Im sure pugs can feel same over me, when i mess up. But thats why having a timer that remind the group all the time about the failure isnt good.
Im spending much more time in a classic hardcore dungeon, but everyone having a blast. There is no pressure.
These comments are sending me lol talking about how you won't be forced into staying in a key that will take too long or is overtimed...I cant be convinced that if people are communicating and being respectful to eachother that there cant be a mutual understanding on whether to stay or not. Even better, just have a discussion before the key starts with they leader! "Hey guys I'm just looking to time this key, not interested in an hour-long run for completion, everyone cool with that?" Lol like dude... Somebody's going to come up with some crazy niche situation that this doesn't apply to, but ask yourself how often something like that actually happens where this would not solve the problem. Seems like Blizz is banning for a behavior pattern, not some crazy one-off situation
Yup, well said all around! Communication and respect goes a long long way.
man outta breath and everything metro ran home to make this one. it's a goodie
Ya legit left the first highschool basketball game I went to since 2007 to make this video.
What! Whow! I didn't even know about this until I clicked on your video Metro! Thank you for covering this!!
No problem! My esteemed pleasure to spread the news on this!
@@heythereguysitsMetro Wonderful!!! 💜