Rumination Analysis on Command & Conquer
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Oh, yeah, I almost forgot.
PEACE THROUGH POWER! PEACE THROUGH POWER!
KANE LIVES IN DEATH
KANE LIVES!!!
RIP Westwood. I still have my copy of Tiberium Wars and proud of it.
Westwood did not make TW though ...
Tiberium dawn perhaps?
@@forestcampbell8962 no but im sure it's good too!
What do you think about how they presented Tiberium in C&C3, where they wanted to go the more hard sci-fi route, dropped the plant part and called it radioactive crystals?
Personally I think it works. I see it not as a retcon, but rather proof that Tiberium has several stages. When it first appears it's mostly organic to facilitate its spread. Over time a larger and larger percentage of it turns crystalline, since the crystals are what you're after. It makes sense that the Scrin having tamed Tiberium optimized it to get the most out of each seeded planet. C&C3 and/or the expandalone Kanes Wrath also mentions that once a planet is almost completely taken over by Tiberium, this alien resource takes another step, and start naturally occurring in it's liquid form, a form that contains a lot more energy, and also serves as a beacon alerting the Scrin that the planet is ripe for harvesting. Spoiler alert:
Kane tricked GDI into setting off a liquid Tiberium explosion, in turn tricking the Scrin to arrive early, which meant that they found a planet that A) wasn't as rich in resources as it should've been, and B) put up way more of a fight.
On the Red Alert side of things, I really do enjoy Red Alert 3, but mostly it's because of the actors selling it so well. Overall my favourite one is Red Alert 2. Back on the Tiberium side of things my favourite is C&C3, Kane's Wrath included, because it still plays really well, the gameplay works with the story and setting, the GUI doesn't make want to stab myself with a fork.
Personally I actually agree with the Tiberium progression to full crystals, it's how I envisioned it working even before they changed their minds on that one. It also emphasizes the crystalline nature over the... well, hideous deformative nature which appeals to my aesthetics heh.
I liked the idea of Kane being a sinister ubiquitous presence but never actually on screen. Kind of like Father Karras in Thief II.
Fascinating look on a childhood series for me. Obviously, never really appreciated the finer points of it - now I get an urge to play them again... :-)
On another issue - I like the gradual development of the background over time :-D
so here's some thoughts on future (possibly) of tiberium stroyline. GDI has control of tiberium, nod has likely descended into another civil war with kane's departure and we heard about the forgotten last in c&c2. I'd imagine even with control of tiberium across the world turning back the tide would take time. so GDI has it's work cut out for it still. NOD meanwhile could have a whole sort of succession crisis and perhaps legion (kanes ai) is meant or trying to take control of NOD entirely. meanwhile the forgotten have quietly built up and become a tiberium dependent people in the intervening years that sees the retreat of tiberium and advance of GDI as something to be resisted and as their own faction starts to show their true strength on the world stage.
so, is this an interesting setup/continuation to anyone?
you didn't mention DUNE 2. That was the 1st RTS in high quality and also massively popular, and from Westwood (I played it on Commodore Amiga). But I agree, when I heard C&C was to come out, I was on the edge of my seat waiting for it, and it rocked! Same for C&C 2, or Red Alert. One of the funniest LAN games ever, especially when you had the expansion with the Russian Suicide-Tanks.
He didn't mention it by name, but he did refer to it.
I'll never forget rescuing Tanya. One of my favorite badass-fighter-chicks. I remember sneaking a spy into the building to rescue her, then the FMV runs... Spy opens door to her cell where she is being tortured, gets shot by the interrogator, Tanya then picks up her steel chair and brings it down on the interrogator leaving him trapped under her, camera pans away as she shoots him multiple times in the face. God Red Alert was a great series.
They don't make badass women like they used to.
Personally, gameplay wise, my favourite RA is RA2:Yuri's Revenge simply because of how bonkers it is. The 50's sci-fi Yuri units are just plain crazy. Getting a bunch of flying saucers to mow down your enemy while using mind-control towers to defend your base with the enemy's units is such a nuts idea to be almost brilliant.
Second to that is RA3: Uprising because of the addition of the Campaign which changed the dynamic a bit. Yes, its been done a several times since, but this was the first time I recall seeing it.
When I think of how Kane is described in the first game, I am reminded of President Alexander Bourne of the Macronesian Alliance from SeaQuest 2032. Another group that harnessed the resources and got rich, growing an army into a global superpower, led by an intelligent and ruthless tyrant.
3rd Bat. here, we can't hold the sneezes sir! We're being overwhelmed!
Thanks for doing CnC arch. My favorite franchise...
...at least until recently. :(
Also, on Tiberium, the Brotherhood of Nod actually owned the lion's share of the stuff even all the way back in the first game. When the game starts, Nod owned 49% of the world's Tiberium supply, while GDI owned 27% and the rest belonged to other parties. At that point, Kane could have just bought his way into membership within the UN, by bribing its officials with enough Tiberium that not only would they forget his crimes, but also recognize the Brotherhood as a political entity and make it a member of the United Nations. In one swoop, he'd go from being GDI's most wanted, to GDI's new boss.
Seeing where the series went with him, it feels like conflict itself was his goal and in a very roundabout way he was saving humanity. Once Tiberium arrived, the planet was on a ticking clock where either Tiberium or the Scrin would put an end to civilization, and the wars he continually started were to push for the rapid advancement that comes hand in hand with war. He engineered a situation where the world was prepared to fight the Scrin by baiting them in during the height of power of both sides, captured a structure so that he could eventually achieve his personal goal, and even leaving behind a permanent solution to the devastation of the final phase of Tiberium growth. He could have had the planet at any time, but whenever a point approached where one of the upper ranks got it in their head to finish off GDI entirely, he stepped in to stop them in various ways. His main flaw was that he would get occasionally hyper-focused on his goal at the last minute and underestimate the GDI threat at his doorstep.
@@KertaDrake That makes perfect sense with how you explained that wars helped advance the technology.
Much like the Sonic videos, it's really great to see how you can make something I've never had the inclination to play really, really interesting.
That was freaky, I just joined a Risk game in Starcraft Brood war UMS at same time you said that on the video.
I always liked the NOD Campaign End FMV scene. Firstly it showed a cool-looking (for the time) idea of what we thought cyberspace was (similar to the film Lawnmower Man) and then let you blow up one of four landmarks (long before Independence Day did it). Obviously neural interface cyber-running with firewalls and ATP software portrayed as smashing and crashing stuff is complete nonsense, but to the child mind it looked awesome.
Platy waddles off to find Lore some hairball treatment for all those Teckkkkkkhnically chokes...
and some more Kleenex (and maybe loratadine) for the sneezes...
You aren’t alone, I adore RA3, the ham and the gameplay.
And I’ve put in a fair amount of thought on continuing C&C, with GDI having spread throughout the solar system fighting a new Scrin invasion and Legion’s armies of cyborgs left behind after ascension.
Loved this rumination. I love the CnC series, despite being first introduced to it in Tiberium Wars. I think your analysis of tiberium and the focus on setting (as opposed to SC and WC which focussed on characters - love those too though) is spot on. To answer your question, I actually liked RA3, and it's my favorite of the three RA games. I also liked your thoughts on Tiberian Twilight, I game I dislike, but actually have some sympathy for, at least on its story front. The impression I got was that Kane was indeed tired of the conflict, and had grown to sympathize with humanity (e.g. his "you're so fragile"/"thank you" lines). The TCN is also very different from his plan at the end of Tiberian Sun. Both seem focused on ascension in hindsight, but the former spares humanity and saves the world.
As for what to do with the series, honestly, I don't think the Tiberian series needs a reboot. Its story is done. If CnC needs a reboot, I think it could use a new (sci-fi) setting. That said, I love your Red Alert IN SPACE! idea.
Would be interesting to see a rumination on Emperor: Battle for Dune
The indication that Kane was an immortal, the Biblical Cain, brother of Abel, the Father of Murder himself. "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." This was reinforced with the first Red Alert, considering the guy didn't age a day in the half a century that separates those games kinda confirms that there's a lot more going on than meets the eye. And yeah, I'd prefer the mystery over the cheap explanation. That's one of the things where fiction differs completely from reality; the mystery is usually better than the knowledge.
I loved this Rumination, C&C have always been close to my heart.
I liked the "bigger franchise" version of Kane, that is, that he is an alien that used humanity for whatever reason.
One comment I wish to make, which I am sure will step on a few toes (and even go against Word of God IIRC) is that I don't agree with the idea that Allid victory in RA1 leads to the other RA games and that the Soviet victory would lead to the Tiberium timeline. The reason I never agreed with that is because, aside from Nod, GDI and the arrival of Tiberium, the world we see in Tiberian Dawn felt quite similiar to the real world at the time of the game's release. One of the points that were made in the Soviet ending of RA1 was that the war's purpose was a ploy by Kane to conquer Europe, thereby setting it under the regime of the USSR. In order to lead a major part of the world into ruin (they mention they predict the USSR to collapse in the early 90's). Presumably because Nod would thrive on the social unrest that would follow such a collapse. And given my previous statement about how the world of Tiberian Dawn felt close to normal, I doubt that such a huge social upheavel had taken place. The second reason is that I refuse to connect RA1 to the other RA games, not because I dislike them but because as Archengai pointed out, the tone were so far apart from each other.
Catching up with alot of your video's 🔥🤘🏻😎 NO WAY HAVE YOU DONE A VIDEO ON COMMAND AND CONQUER!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Tiberium.... Damn Tiberium is awesome. I prefer the theory that the Scrin created the Tiberium in the first place.
To answer more questions, I prefer the idea of Kane having a master plan than being an opportunist - far as I can tell from Renegade, he is indeed the Biblical Kane, but his alien biology is the reason he's still around. I also liked it how both the Tiberian and Red Alert series got more fantastical over time. RA1 was decent, but still basically "WWII, but with Soviets instead of Nazis." Tiberian Dawn certainly kickstarted the sci-fi elements of its series, but later entries ran with them. In both cases, I feel both worked out. Certainly RA3 and Tiberium Wars are my favorites of both respective series (never cared for Generals much, as it lacked any of the sci-fi or campy elements. That, and its plot was practically non-existent).
The statement about Risk should be printed as a warning on the box.
Came across this randomly via RUclips recommendations. Have since spent about 5 hours so far on Ruminations. Subbed! Just curious though, what do you do for a living / qualifications do you have? You're smarter than the average joe.
Kane reminds me, to a certain extent, of Baron Alexander from Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
i don't know if somone already mentioned it, but Yuri is playe by Udo Kier a great german actor
I always thought Kane was in the beginning a reference to the biblical Cain. Nod does have a lot of religious symbology and biblical references anyway.
supposedly it does date to adam and eve and probably even before that
I love Red Alert 3, so no, you are not alone.
Most of what Lore says "we know" about Kane and the Scrin, we *don't actually know*.
The majority of this information is either strongly implied or theorized about (both in game and out of game), but never definitively stated.
Such as Kane being an alien and not being from earth originally.
We don't *know* that the scrin seed worlds with tiberium. It's only ever stated in game *as a theory*. In game; in universe we don't know for certain.
We don't even know Kane is immortal or extremely long lived, or in fact that the person we see whispering in Stalin's ear in Red Alert *is* in fact Kane.
None of this is ever difinitively stated in universe.
Honestly I would have not preferred it if Kane had been left a complete mystery, I think it would have come off as bad writing or even seen as them ignoring the character to not explain the character at least a little bit, plus it works to give motivation to the character. Plus I liked that while we do know some truths about him, we were never given the complete truth, there is still plenty of mystery around the character.
Also I would not call Kane evil, but brutally straightforward and pragmatic, also I always thought that be being on earth for millennium, that Kane eventually developed a kind of parental felling towards humanity with Nod as the good kids, following his lead, and GDI being the rebellious kids. Not to mention that he probably guided humanity behind the scenes for a long time, so who knows where C&C humans would be without him.
I also have a more positive outlook on Kane because of my view that a good action even if done with non-good motives or intentions, is still in and of itself a good action, thus when the blue, yellow, red zones come into play and Nod being the ones to help the people in the yellow zones with food, water, medicine, housing, protection, education, etc. While GDI retreats to the blue zones. Even if this is done to gain recruits or support or tribute, I still think makes both Kane and Nod more grey and later on, even pseudo good guys or reformed good guys.
Another point I would point out is Nod's lookout on tiberium, being honest about their desire to use while GDI hypocritically both uses and condemns tiberium. For while it is definitely a dangerous and cancerous substance, like nuclear energy, it can also be used to help and advance humanity. Yes it is extremely good at consuming everything around it and would be the most dangerous source of energy and economy and industry that humans had ever seen, so long as the fighting between GDI and Nod could be stopped long, as was seen in C&C 4, technology can be made to control it. Plus the fact that somewhere down the line, it can be just unleashed on barren planets with no other use than to be used to grow tiberium on, or even on the planets of mankind's enemy's and let them deal with it. Essentially we could use it much in the same way the Scrin do.
One further point would be how the GDI seem to become grey is that while they continually claim the moral high-ground and provide better conditions and such for their troops and civilians, they however keep pushing the war against Nod even though they realize it is pointless and how they create the conditions in which Nod can thrive. By creating the zones GDI blatantly show their abandonment of those outside the blue zones, leaving them to fend for themselves and thereby leaving those people to turn to Nod, thus allowing Nod to keep growing and survive.
But that is just my thoughts, aside from that awesome video, very insightful, very entertaining and always love to watch these and always look forward to more.
I say Kane saved the world just so he can win in the history books. With him having saved the world from Tiberium, his foes will retroactively be branded as evil, because not that many people will want to demonize the guy who saved the planet. If the Brotherhood didn't own the planet before, they will end up ruling it, eventually, as Brotherhood remnants will take his image of being a hero of the downtrodden and transform it to the man who saved the world from Tiberium.
They should make a TV series based in the late Tiberian Dawn Era to early Tiberian Sun.
I really don't know which kind of Kane I like more. I suppose, whatever his long-term plot may or may not be, that I do like his portrayal in C&C95 the most of all. I love that game's tone and presentation. Though I should add that I didn't play any C&C games after Yuri's Revenge (Red Alert 2 expansion)
R.I.P Westwood.
17:19 - RIP Westwood. Never forget. If Nox had proper multiplayer support it would have utterly destroyed Diablo. I still play Nox at LANs to this day.
Nothing beats Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction
Kane lives!
I remember Dune 2 really got me into this type of game.
The main evil purpouse of risk is ruining friendships hahahah
I found this video VERY interesting - and for that I congradulate you my friend,
For me, I actually separate all the C&C tiberium games, because for me, Tiberium dawn / C&C95 - is not connected. They actually connected it in tiberian sun, dont get me wrong, but they made tiberian sun - try to connect. Where as the original was stand alone.
Kane was just a human seeing the opportunity - And thats what he did, Tiberian sun onwards, it became sci-fi, and I was never a fan of that. In just the look and the feel of it for me C&C was gritty and realistic - And the idea its campy and "B-movie" like you said, there is some great video FMVs in the original game, like mission 5, as GDI where they get funding cut - And you have greig burdett (if I recall) say GDI did this to the village, then you see the green-screen -
The lot, I could believe that - infact it never occored to me when I was growing up (or even as an adult until I saw some behind the scenes footage on youtube) That literally - That greenscreen shown in that FMV, was for all cutscenes,
They just got a second camera to show off the green screen and the studio -
The other thing I wanted to add - I feel kane became "captain Jack Harkness" pretty much (Or at least influenced by at the end) the thing about Jack was, he cant die, and lives through everything, He practically says the same thing as kane - And that leads me onto the last bit -
I think its probably the most blatently obvious thing to say, But I always thought the ending of tiberian twilight was - Where he removes tiberium from the earth, because GDI and NOD had been at it for however many years, at the time 3 world wars, And still going - Tiberium is the biggest of issues, And will eventually over-run the world killing off life on the planet.
However the ultimate fact is, Kane needs GDI because he needed the portal from the scrin in C&C3 to be activated. BUT the only way he could get close and get "support" is by offering the tacitus/the control network to contain it. So it was Kanes bargining chip to getting off the planet.
There was (if you pre-ordered) I think 2 extra missions for C&C4, Which explained why giddeon is against kane despite the fact hes meant to be on nods side,
In honesty, (As a gamer) I did not like red alert 3 one bit. it disappointed me, BUT C&C 4, is not as bad as some made it out to be, but the story actually interested me quite a bit, I think a part of the reason C&C was actually brilliant was, And Joe said it himself
C&C as a movie? He could not see it happening because its not just the translation from medium to medium, its, He felt C&C was not about the story, its about the world and what you made it out to be.
For instance me saying, the world is over-run by tiberium, and humanity is glutching at straws to try to survive. Just the fact I saw "sonic emmitters" from C&C 3 turned onto tiberium to try and keep it back - That interested me, The intro interested me.
If I had to be completely honest, the only ones that actually "interested" me from the word go - Was original game, and C&C 4. (excluding red alert, which only the original interested me from the go, RA3 had me hoping it would live upto the gameplay of RA2, and RA2 only disappointed me because it was not gritty and realistic like the original was, but I did enjoy it, Just not entirely the way I was expecting it to)
As a character (in short) original game is the Kane I know.
Tiberian sun onwards, is basically seperate for me,
how can you not think that TD/95 is not connected?
kane had his whole organization of nod supposedly long before the whole adam and eve thing and it was a more secret religious group then anything.
led by kane, once tiberium hit the scene, nod sprang out from the roots and became a powerful group with massive assets on tiberium and began its assault on GDI because they wanted to eradicate tiberium from the planet. whilst kane saw it as the next stage in human evolution, which sparked the first TW
don't get me wrong, i love the first one so much that as a kid i put more effort into learning the storyline behind nod more than anything and if it wasn't for the first game, then we wouldn't have such a diversified storyline throughout the games, not saying that TW3 was spectacular and no idea wtf happened with TT.
TS took the original storyline and showed how fucked the world was from tiberium, also showed how more advanced nod had become due to tiberium and support from its allies.
i feel like TS tried to establish a different idea in the storyline entirely mostly because
when the scrin crashed into earth to investigate tiberium, i think kane saw his golden opportunity to mix humans with alien tech to create that spark of human evolution, that's probably why kane had bioresearch centers studying the effects of tiberium on humans and he thought, like you said, the tacitus was that golden ticket to get off the planet before tiberium had completely fucked the planet, either that or he wanted to integrate nod itself with such advanced technology that he would use to take over anything he wanted including the scrin, given that the tacitus has such advanced power even being able to see the future, i think kane saw a way to overpower the scrin and he knew he would one day become the most powerful entity in the universe so that's why he needed the tacitus so much.
i see where you might say it isn't connected for the sheer fact of the addition of the tacitus in TS and the storyline taking a huge dip into expanding on that more but the whole tiberium element tied both games together pretty damn well, mostly because kane's ''world changing missile'' was a perfect plot device that helped connect both games just by tiberium, it would have been cool to have hints at the tacitus in the first one and then it would have helped connect the games even more
like i said, i can kinda see your reasoning behind the 2 not being well connected, but it is what it is ;p
Awesome rumination, but what scene exactly was squick in GoT? I can suspect a few.
R.I.P Westwood
Man I really kinda miss the bad FMV acting. The opening to Resident Evil 1 was a particular source of hilarity.
What I find so baffling about this goofy series, is that they have the most accurate portrayal of Joseph Stalin seen in any video game. No game sense has dared put Stalin at the forefront.
Nice analysis. You should have mention that there is a change of story between Tiberian Sun and Tiberium Wars. For example Kane's plan change from evolving humanity to ascension whatever that is. What happened to CABAL was also not explained initially.
Also Nod being evil at first is relative, most of the thing GDI know come from Nod. Being nice doesn't save you from Tiberium. It's like being a good guy in the Black Plague will keep you alive instead of knowledge of medicine and advancement.
The refining method
Tacitus
TCN all come from Nod
They may also deliberately kill civilians to trigger war to advance humanity in advance of Scrin invasion.
Of course Nod could go for a nicer way of warning humanity, but that would just crazy UFO conspiracist. Who would believe that there are aliens waiting to invade us. No, humanity wouldn't believe that.
Also note that Nod is always more radical and liberal in scientific and military tactics, something that is uncommon, in that a "religion" is actually more liberal than a secular government.
There is a hidden theme in Tiberian Sun about racism. Mcneil initially doesn't believe that Umagon could help him, but he later began to trust the mutants more.
My opinion about C&C nowadays is partial reboot. Reboot it from Firestorm include CABAL and the mutant as faction. Make a deeper story with timeless moral. For Red Alert try making Renegade 2 as Deus Ex Dishonpred type game with deep story. The same with General, try making story from the perspective of the GLA based on the motivation of why real life insurgent on Iraq and Afghanistan keep on fighting against the US.
its not that the scrin were going to invade from the start, its because the scrin thrive on tiberium and they didnt see humans as a needed resource and they though we got in the way so eradication was a necessity, the ship that crashed in TS was probably just a probe just watching and seeing what happens once it noticed tiberium was on earth
I know this is 4 years old, but you should try OpenRA... Modernized versions of Tiberian Dawn, Red Alert, and Dune 2000
Bless you.
What are your opinions on the Total War series? It seems you would like the sort of thing
I enjoy them but I wouldn't call them greats, mainly because I wish the 4X side was more and the RTS side was also more. Ironically I end up half liking both halves.
Great Rumination. It's been a while since I haven't had time to sit down at watch these lately. I still need to watch comment on the Dark Souls Rumination. But this one was especially interesting.
I have two things to say.
1) I'm glad you brought up C&C: Generals. There is a new game coming out very soon that is very much meant to be a follow up to a game in that style. It's being made by the developers who are known for the "Wagrgame" series.
Check it out Arch, let me know what you think. ruclips.net/video/qcofOlVf05Q/видео.html
I think you'll definitely see a resemblance in the way it looks.
2) I think one of the more interesting and subtle things about C&C lore was in C&C 3 during the Scrin campaign. The Scrin EVA unit, the woman's voice who briefs you, doesn't say the familiar, "Welcome back, commander." She calls you "Foreman" instead.
It really hits home the message of what Kane did in the Third Tiberium War. He collected Tiberium and created a liquid Tiberium bomb, placing it under his Temple in Sarajevo. (Interesting location, owing once again to the political climate IRL in the 90's when the games came out). He knew that GDI would use the ION cannon on it and explode the bomb, making Earth show up on the Scrin's radar. Then they would come to harvest, believing it was ready.
But Kane tricked them. The Scrin that show up to earth are there to mine it, not fight. Indeed the only forces you control or fight, depending on your faction at the time, are security forces meant to protect the laborers, not fight a war. And as the Scrin, your superior wants you to stay there and continue to gather information, putting your own life at risk. Your AI finds this unacceptable and actually shuts him off! Saying that GDI are close to destroying the last way off this planet, and you must escape! I loved that. Very clever stuff imo.
For a C&C reboot scrap the concept of Tiberium. It is based upon outdated early 90s paranoia of environmental destruction anyways. Instead, we need something based upon nowadays technology and AI paranoia. Something about self-replicating machines threatening earth. Hmm..., wait a second. Grey Goo already did this...
MrCalhoun Think EVA and CABAL and LEGION and run with it that way
"Setting making thing" xD
How about a "setting element"? ^^
I love you
so much is to say about cain (the real one):
he definitely did not bring humanity forward...
I personally prefer Kane's original character. It felt developed and strong. With each successive game, the strength of the character seemed to diminish. His importance and involvement almost becoming a joke. While yes people can say that is his character development. It does not feel like it though. How can there be a development when it almost seems as if the character has become lost. It just feels like something went missing in the pursuit of profit like so many other pieces of art forgotten in time. Just my opinion though...... Everything changes with time. :)
Stupid question incoming:
How does one, as a Patreon contributor, submit requests?
Probably just ask in the youtube comments, or private message him some how.
Every time I finish my queue of loreruns and ruminations I do a post on Patreon for patrons-only to submit requests, and build my next queue.
Alright. How often do these queues get refilled? I've been contributing for roughly three months, and I haven't been aware of it. Probably because of my own incompetence.
Arvid Axelsson Right now he's backlogged for another 5-6 months. Because everyone went bananas and wanted him to ruminate on something they liked. If you want to suggest something, try agan in 5-6 months after the queue has been gone though.
Well. By the Nine.
Tecgrhhchnically. lol, is that an inside joke?