My daughter was sick most of her life. When she lived and after she died, religious and esp hyper-religious people (including family) said or implied that it was because of how or what we believed. Not how we treated our fellow man, but whether you prayed enough or went to church enough. It’s was one of the cruelest things done to us. My father told me once that he thought my youngest brother had Down Syndrome was because of his failings. He was the nicest person I know and kind to everyone. It made me so sad to hear he felt that way for decades.
"People, for some reason, find solace in the idea that they have an explanation for something that has no explanation." That perfectly sums up pretty much every religion throughout history.
The point to emphasize here is that the problem of suffering is not just a religious problem; it’s a universal problem. I wish Ehrman would take an agnostic (so to speak) view about whether good will eventually triumph.
By the way, if you want to do what you can to make things better, the place to start is at your job. What you do (and what your company does-for which you are responsible) during working hours will have a far greater effect on the world than anything you do elsewhere. If your career goal is to make as much money as possible, it’s very likely that you’re doing far more harm than good, and giving to charity on the side or helping old ladies across the street is not going to come close to atoning.
I came up in a theology that is along these lines: “ if I am suffering God is testing me” “If you are suffering God is punishing you “ Such a horrible world view
Suffering and evil don’t just “exist”, they’re actively perpetuated by forces that we do understand but fail to resolve because everyone feels bound by their own immediate interests. Spiritual explanations of the problem are no more than an excuse to continue avoiding proactive solutions.
Yes, what wpuld we do, if we were almighty like God... so many things would change But if we would not only be almight, but also all-wise, all-knowing and all-good, we would do exactly the same as God does it...
Imagine thinking u can imagine what it’s like to be all knowing. Knowing not just everything EVERYTHING in the past present and all possible futures. And then thinking u can grasp that and make a sound judgement off that. Arrogance knows no bounds.
@@swissapologeticsI don’t think I would feel the need to bet on someone’s devotion to me while they’re losing everything including their health, then chastise them and demand obedience with a lengthy diatribe when they ask why I’m doing this to them. But then, I’m not all mighty. So maybe the true god is power. It certainly has gone to YHWHs head
@@codykuch5293 What is the first and most important thing God demands? Is it obediance? No, its love. You shall love God - because He loves you. What is the second one? Is it devotion? No it is trust - you shall believe in Gods promises and trust fully in Him, because He is pure goodness and will never break His word. So why then do you reduce God to something like an evil dictator? Obviously your problem with God comes from your side.
@@swissapologeticsif your parent took away all your possessions, killed your kids and infected you with bacteria and viruses, demanded you pledge yourself to him/her unwaveringly then gave you everything back (including adopted kids) and took you to the hospital Would you consider that parent as loving?
Hearing how Bart took into account the beliefs of Megan and of his wife as people who identify as christians, I now DEMAND (very nicely and eagerly, of course) an episode with Bart interviewing Megan and her experience as the co-host of this podcast. As someone who also identifies as Christian and fallows Bart's work with utmost interest, I'd love to hear what Megan has to say.
@k.c8658 He is very knowledgeable and I enjoy listening to him, learnt much from him, but sometimes he gives me the impression he feels he needs to throw a bone every now and then to the Christian community he deconverted out of, I might be wrong but that's my impression about some things I have heard him say. That diminishes my respect for him a wee bit, but all in all I think he is valuable to people on the fence about their faith/ religion.
@@MavStSmitty I am not saying he should be mean or unkind about religion. I don't know, just seems he holds back a bit with regard to religious community, I may be wrong, thanks for your thoughts on the matter, you may be right. I have to go back and listen to some of his speeches again.
@@John.Flower.Productions I'm no longer a Christian because the premise of a good all powerful god conflicts with both the world as we understand it and the Bible itself. Among a number of other things. That's the biggest issue but far from the only one The problem of evil, as Bart generally put it, is that an all knowing, all loving and all powerful god doesn't exist because evil exists. He either is evil himself or refuses to deal with the problem or is unable to deal with the problem.
I used to be agnostic but now a Christian. Surely Bart knows the meaning of Jesus last words in Mark. So why not explain it rather than mislead about it? We need to be aware of semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
@@paulkiernan3256 because people had different interpretations of what Jesus says in Mark. The gnostics felt "My god why have you forsaken me?' made it clear the spirit of God was leaving the human Jesus, for example Probably every sentence of the Bible has been debated and will be debated forever because that's how humans are. Barts interpretation is his interpretation.
I've read Dr. Ehrman's book on this topic and find his realizations mirror my own. When people tell me thay can't understand why God would permit suffering, I've gotten into the habit of saying that there are simply some questions you can't ask. I have no understanding of how large the universe is, what shape it is, or if there might be more than one. And so I find it better to just leave it be. Try to avoid pain, try to avoid hurting anyone, make whatever you can better, and strive to grow with all experiences.
When a three year old child died from being forgotten in a hot car several years ago in a town I used to live in, many people posted that we should all be praying for justice for the child. Why would “God” care about influencing the ins and outs of the justice system when “He” didn’t care enough to prevent the child from dying a horrible death in the first place?
Sometimes good prevails and sometimes bad prevails. It's the yin/yang of life. This was a really great episode. Thanks Bart, Megan et al. And thank you for answering my question.
Some people are so troubled about not knowing the "answers" that they have to latch onto made up stories and fiction to fill that void. I would like to know the answers, if I could, but I'm not willing to invest in some fairy tale because the answers are unavailable.
I’ve never understood that. How is it comforting to know an omnipotent God created a world with so much suffering? IMO, the probable and rational explanation that life arose as a result of Evolution and other theories of science and that nature has no agency is not only true but more comforting. I don’t have to tie myself in logical knots reconciling an omnipotent God who still allows suffering. I just understand that a sad truth of the wonderful gift of life is that besides experiencing joy we also have to experience suffering. And that we have the power to make less suffering both for ourselves and others, even though of course we can’t eliminate it completely.
@@whittfamily1 That can be an answer only in an abstract impersonal sense. If we have any depth whatsoever we have still to grapple with how to find meaning in our own personal intense suffering and in the suffering of those around us.
Good point, and Superman movie fascinated me as a child, the entertainment business world created such movies knowing children will love heroes! Same with religion, Saviors😅
Professor Bart is big hearted,and it truly helps bolster his perspective on the Bible. Many believers take it for granted that non-believers are amoral when nothing could be further from the truth. Being an authentic human means, regardless of belief or race, you want to be decent,do the right thing and can't help but empathize with another's suffering, human or animal. Regardless of belief,that should be a great source of comfort.
Wow, I'm new here and have just been captivated by this podcast. I went and grabbed like 10 different episodes I believe and I'm finally "caught up". Ended up buying MJ and HJBG. Haven't read but excited. Also purchased one of the courses and certainly going to purchase the course with the 10 different scholars. As someone who struggled with their Faith for so long he has been super helpful for me being Agnostic now. In one of his videos he talks about people not accepting when they are wrong and I just love that because I literally live by that everyday.
I have the same question that why I left my faith and started to study my original religion (Buddhism). As a result I found out that suffering is the part of human life. Everybody will age, pain and die. It makes more sense than praying and asking God.
Jesus just means saviour in Greek, Titus called all rebellious leaders Jesus, satire, Titus crucified Jesus Lucifer along with 2 million Zionists,why All the gospels contradict each other, different Jesus's, Titus was also Jesus(Saviour), Mary was what the Romans called all rebellious women, Magdala was a town near Galilee, Titus's satire, Titus my one true son in the faith, there's a clue in that statement, Paul was Titus, Titus had lots of Pen names.
The fundamentalist church I was raised in would preach that it was someone’s sin that was the reason someone died young. So much trauma for us kids raised hearing that every week.
@swissapologetics "you can never know". Except that a foundational teaching of Christianity is that we DO know...the "wages of sin is death". Suffering, pain and death are the direct result of man's sin. Before the Fall, no sickness, no predation, no suffering, no death. Except we know that in terms of life on Earth, death is a feature not a defect...plant, animal and microbial creatures have lived, died, went extinct for hundreds of millions of years before modern humans existed as a species. Were those deaths somehow anticipating The Fall (effect preceding cause)? That defies logic.
@@MikeB3542 Its not about the question, how death came into the world. Its about why something bad happens to a person. You cant say its always a punishment for sin. The 3 friends of Job did that, and they were wrong and rebuked. Dont go to someone that was hit hard by a bad event and tell them its because of his sin... thats one of the big lessons from the book of Job
@@swissapologetics To religion it doesn’t matter why bad things happen to someone in reality. They need to make sure you know it’s your fault or your choice to be that way or you did something. They have to teach this from a young age. It’s just old fashioned terrorism of kids so they will obey out of fear when they get older. Religion in the USA is very much like the Catholic Church in Europe from the Middle Ages.
Well I must be punished for my parents sins or sins while I was in the womb, because I have suffered in many ways from day one to now my 60th year! Suffered the same before I was Christian and after, nothing changed. Many people around me, Christian and non, seem to have wonderful lives. My crap just keeps going on in health, mind, relationships, etc.
_Now that, is a topic, I'd like to see discussed ;_ How can any modern, intelligent woman possibly accept a God that is based on a book, (Bible), that is so clearly misogynistic ? _Truly perplexing._
@@pdyt2009The art of _cherry picking ;_ In my experience, Christians in general tend to skip over the nasty stuff & focus on the more altruistic aspects of the Bible.
@@babyruthless9670 I think that most Christians have a "cherry picked" version of the Bible. I bet most of them have no idea, just how morally bankrupt, the biblical God actually is.
Great show. Thank you both. I would like to see a discussion about “free will” but not from the philosophical view rather from the Christian theological perspective.
as someone who they tried to raise catholic, but i just never paid attention to the teachers and priests when they tried to brainwash me in grade school (i guess i've always been an athiest despite family and peer pressure), i have recently been listening to biblical scholars do deep dives. it kind of helps understand how and why people do end up in the various religions and allows me to better communicate with people...🎉
@tokyo333 - I was VERY religious throughout my teens thinking about what "God's special plan" was for me and anticipating it, but then I guess my rational pre-frontal lobe came online and I outgrew the fairy tale of religion.
I recently did a cursory read of the OT. And I tried to read it as I would read any story or account of events. Whether fictional or non-fictional -- not really something I set out to explore. What I came away with was somewhat unexpected. The thing basically consists of accounts of a raging SuperPower apparently bent on making life on earth miserable for human beings. In this context, the question posed here is ridiculous (assuming "God" here is the same entity as the SuperPower to which I refer). The obviously correct answer to the question is this: "God is simply doing his job... the best and only way he knows."
If you read the Bible it becomes _very_ clear that the statement "God is benevolent" is... problematic. Edit: When we find something that we _want_ to believe, we ask "can I believe it?" And we look for one example, and we don't question it too much. When it's something we _don't_ want to believe, we ask "must I believe it?" And if we can find one counter-example, we're satisfied with that. And that's how intelligent people end up with simple questions to complex answers.
@Valdagast Pre-Babylonian captivity: El = title meaning God Elah = God's feminine title Elohim = sons of El Post-Babylonian captivity: El = God Elah = God Elohim = God This is called "syncretization" and some biblical character referred to as the "harlot of Babylon" did the syncretizing. Reading the Bible using the Pre-Babylonian captivity definitions of God's titles seems like a good idea 💡. Try using the NOG translation it's on Bible Gateway and doesn't remove God's titles or the name (Yah/Yahweh) of the deciever. [In the Old Testament]: Elohim from Genesis 1 is a title. Yahweh Elohim from Genesis 2 is a name. Amos 5 Names of God Bible 27 I will send you into exile beyond Damascus, says Yahweh, whose name is Elohe Tsebaoth. Amos 5 King James Version 27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is The God of hosts. I wonder who the usurper/deciever is...maybe it's the guy with names that appear to be titles and is Evil af? Also, context really matters in Hebrew and "Elohim" from Genesis 1 is possessive (God's) context while Yahweh "Elohim" from Genesis 2 is plural (gods) context. [In the New Testament]: Christ is a title. Jesus Christ is a name. Jesus Christ, in plain English, is Joshua Chosen. Christ/Chosen is being used as a name here and deliberately so. This is Yahweh Elohim from Genesis 2 all over again. Look for when Christ is used correctly (as a title). The OT, NT and Quran all have a good guy and a bad guy. Titles = good guy Names faking like they're titles = bad guy Is anyone really surprised that it was the bad guy who got nailed to a tree and cursed forever? Is everyone retarded? [In the Quran]: Ilah is a title. Allah is a name. The Arabic "Ilah" in Hebrew is "Elah" which is God's feminine title. The Arabic "Allah" in Hebrew is "Elohe" which is Yahweh's middle name. Yah Tsebaoth (Yaldabaoth) has 99 names in Islam (but a title ain't one haha 😂). See how the usurper/deciever operates? The Bible should be renamed "God's titles vs TheGod's names." Anyone with a name was given a name, a created being. The essence of Paganism is worshipping that which is created (Genesis 2) rather than the Creator (Genesis 1). Yah’s Bronze Age epithets (nicknames) were the Dragon, the Twisting Serpent and the Seven-headed Monster. That's back when he was called Yaw (see Mt Ebal curse tablet YHW) and before that he was called Yam (see Baal Cycle when Yam gets renamed to Yaw). Yam is the Canaanite word for Sea. Biblical Leviathan and seven-headed Tannin are aspects of Yam. Sea Beasts. Recall: the villian of our story has many names (also nicknames) and wants to usurp God's titles. The villian is right there in the OT, NT and Quran faking like he's God's titles he simply tacks on a name. Any time you're reading some Evil manipulative horse 💩 in the Bible from a character claiming to be God I bet you a million dollars that's actually a name or a nickname, not one of God's titles (see Yahwist vs Elohist fragments of the Pentateuch).
Many of the bad actions which the Bible authors attributed to God are actions which God would not perform, if he did exist. So, the authors are just mistaken. They are probably delusional, lying, or writing fiction.
Agree. Also, I just started watching so don’t know if they will discuss this but how can we reconcile an omnipotent, benevolent God with a God who requires his son to be tortured to death on the cross? If he’s omnipotent then surely he could just forgive humanity without requiring a barbaric sacrifice.
As in Dr. Ehrman's encounter with Swinburne, the one I find so disturbing is when Christians practically swoon at the brave suffering of others, seeing it as God's lesson in "Grace". There was a clip shared on social media a while back of a boy, about 10 -12 years old I think, who had a congenital disorder of collagen synthesis. Basically his skin could not hold any integrity and would come off in sheets essentially daily. He had to be constantly bandaged to keep his ever-evolving wounds covered. Once every four days or so, his mother would have to soak him in the tub and peel the bandages away to replace them, most often removing great portions of skin with it, creating new areas to be bandaged. Every four days this mother had to flay her son alive, both of them weeping in different kinds of agony. He was not expected to live to adulthood. During his interview, he was very poised and insightful. He'd made a peace with his situation that was far beyond the maturity he would have normally achieved. It was heartbreaking. I was absolutely sickened at how many Christians found this child's example a message from God about how to live with grace and how to view this life. As if that wouldn't make God an utter monster to inflict this horror on these people, make their lives a nightmare of physical and mental aguish with a premature death to look forward to, just to give some number of other people the weepy strongfeels and bolster their faith in God and the idea that they'd get to live with this supreme sadist for eternity. After they die peacefully in their sleep at age 104, presumably. Why that is comforting to them, I'll never understand. I don't understand why it would feel better to imagine there is a God allowing all manner of hideous suffering, intervening here and there with a "miracle" to remind everyone of His power. The universe is often a brutal place where natural processes deliver both pleasurable life and terrible misfortunes. It's not less frightening to make the unnecessary (and inevident) addition of an Entity that has these terrible things scripted into Its plan, but might--if you beg hard enough and in the right way and in concert with enough prayer warriors--adjust Its plan for you. But It might not. Roll the dice and beg away.
I'm 71. When I look back and review my life I see that NOTHING was pointless. I either was learning a lesson or I realize now I dodged a bullet. As I get older I am aware of a state of mind that is beyond the physical....and a person has to learn their lessons to proceed. You have to be be able to "travel" in that realm and have complete control of your thinking and emotions.
@@jackfrosterton4135 Actually I was put on drugs at 4 to stop the visions after having minor brain damage. This allowed me to be aware of layers of reality that I wouldn't otherwise. I was mentored by my Christian Science Healer Grandmother who taught me my Mind Creates My Reality as long as you align with Spirit, so I use that "awareness" to interact with reality. There was drama. I lost EVERYTHING. A Navajo friend asked me to rent her Casita just as lockdown hit and I'm just now coming out of 3 years of isolation. During this time I was REALLY angry at God and slowly I realized that everything had been done for my benefit. Spirit explained that for me to continue I would be interacting with a non-physical realm which is "above" the Physical and you navigate with your E-Motions. So you don"t want to be holding on to anger or other sad emotions because what you feel/think at this level will manifest that emotion. Spirit is my daily companion and has proven IT"S existence in ways I have documented because for a long time I thought I was losing my Mind. To cope I did a book of collages which now 40 years later are coming true. One set was about people with Geronimo DNA. That was 1981. My son was born in 1984 and his kids have Geronimo DNA.
Long Story Short. I was put on drugs at 4 to stop the Visions. I was also raised by my Faith Healer Grandmother who mentored me in having control of my thought/emotions to be able to heal others. Then in 1980 I met Larry. He rewired my Brain. He could read my mind and put thoughts into my mind. He would find me anywhere I went. This forced me to be VERY aware of my thinking and to also blank my thoughts so he couldn't find me. One time he took my "Mind" and held it in Outer Space. Scary. This led me to be aware of a non physical reality where it was important to have control of ones emotions/thoughts. E-Motion moves you thru that SPACE. Between then and now I lost EVERYTHING. I came to rent a friends casita here in NM just as the lock down started and I've been isolated for 3 years. This allowed me to let go of my anger and see how what I thought was a loss actually benefited me. I have nerves of steel now... and my Thinking became stronger as the negativity left. I could NOT reach this level if I brought heavy emotions along.
@@joeg46Highlands I agree. Are we here to put all our $$ in our coffin when we die? Now that Movie Stars from my childhood are dead and forgotten, what point is fame?
Was anyone affected (like I was) hearing Bart and looking at the pain in his face when he quite pragmatically and as stoic as possible declared that he feels that the worst in us will likely succeed us. How troubling to feel this way. People must unite and rise and we need to keep doing it throughout our past and present to allow for the future. Love coming from Australia Bart, thank you for your contributions.
A believer with whom I worked told me he was confused because he had learned that a niece of his had lost an eye in an accident. His confusion was because he had told his sister, her mother, that it was probably all to the good because she had been a bit wild. What confused him was that his sister told him to F-off (which made me instantly like her better than him). He actually thought he was giving her comfort and did not understand why she reacted as she had. What comes through to me is so many of these people who insist that no matter how awful someone suffers it is for the good have absolutely no empathy or sympathy. It is just another form of blaming the victim. I have refrained from kicking them in the nards and asking if they thought that was for the good, so far. I suppose my having to suffer their idiocy means it is for the greater good, but then I really do not give a rip for that explanation either. My all-time favorite Onion headline is: God answers crippled boy's prayers. God says "No."
I agree with your POV here. The believer is essentially saying that God punished the sister for her wildness by taking away one of her eyes. This is preposterous. If God did exist, then he would punish ethically. What is described would be unethical punishment.
As horrible as it sounds there's a sad comfort in the idea that there's a good reason for the horrible things that happen. When i was a christian my fav book in the Bible was Job. At the end of the book he asks God why he let him suffer so much. We know that God allowed Satan to test him, but God doesn't tell him that. He responds with indignation. Basically God says, "I'm the infinite creator of the universe. Who are you to question me?" It's twisted and dark, but there is something comforting that there's a good reason for evil. We just can't know that reason, at least not until we get to heaven maybe.
@@t_ylr There are causes of horrible harms, but there are not reasons. The distinction of "cause" and "reason" is very important. There is no good evidence that any deity exists and has reasons for allowing, enabling, authorizing, facilitating, or causing horrible harms. The book of Job is not comforting to me or most rational thinking persons. It could not be true. It is a work of fiction. If God did exist, he would NEVER behave in the manner depicted in that book. He would never make a bet with Satan. He would never create Satan or allow him to continue to exist. He would never allow the horrible harms which occurred to Job in the story. If God existed and there were any harms, we would know the morally justified reasons for them because GOD WOULD TELL US WHAT THEY WERE! And finally, for horrible harms there are not morally justified reasons for an all-powerful person to allow them. Job is still one of my favorite religious books because from it we can clearly see the inadequacies, irrationalities, and stupidities of religious thought.
@@t_ylr A Rabbi who taught ancient literature using the old testament told me (actually a whole class) that the Job story has been ruined by some unknown scribe who tacked on the happy ending. The original version ended with Job in sackcloth and ashes, with the point being believing confers no earthly guarantees. By restoring Job that point was lost.
Whether it’s okay to allow suffering is the judgement we are making about ourselves first and foremost. Until we are clean of making suffering, our judgement lacks understanding because a mind that endures himself making suffering doesn’t understand even who he himself is, let alone any “gods.”
Buddhist thought regarding suffering even in the face of wealth and status (discussed around 2:20) is that suffering (in that context) is driven primarily by our attachment. This is not just attachment to things, but attachment to loved ones and even nostaligic memories. The ultimate truth of the world is that nothing last forever. Now, I'm not Buddhist, so I probably butchered that explaination, but while I don't believe in much of the rest of it, that's pretty convincing lol
What a wonderful series this is! I could listen to Dr. Ehrman for hours (and have, first learning of him from the Great Courses a couple decades ago), and Megan Lewis is a terrific interviewer.
I doubt you will have the time to read all these comments, but I have to say Thank you, thank you, thank you for the best. podcast. ever. My religion is simple: two rules. You know what is wrong, don't do it. You know what is right. Do it.
Sri Ramana Maharshi was once asked something similar:" If our goal is to attain Moksha, why were we born?" His answer was: "You weren't". An answer in the Advita (non-dual) Hindu sense would be that suffering is a result of the illusion that you are the body, that you were born, that you and the divine are actually separate. It takes the view that the mystical union with Sat Chit Ananda removes the entire question of suffering. I have experienced something of this when I was a believer, and it remains an open question for me now. I can't believe in the faith thatI was raised in or in the faith that I later pursued, but there is a sense that there is something just beyond my grasp that seems intuitively possible
Listening to Swami Sarvapriyananda has helped me a lot. The Self is not a knowledge to be acquired (which is primary) but a discernment, a realisation, an unraveling. Ramana Maharshi had his enlightenment in a flash when he was a schoolboy and he was in the natural state forever since. No struggle presumably because he was born ripe. For us, it is not merely intellectual; it does take a leap of faith but also detachment, a moral life, erasure of the ego and the end of desires.
35:47 Yep. I am a Christian, and this is indeed what I have to say one the issue. Some of the answers to the problem of suffering offer genuine insight and comfort, but none of them are wholly adequate, nor should we pretend they are. Instead, we must humble ourselves to acknowledge the depth and complexity of this issue. As Christians, attempting to practice a Christ-like compassion toward our fellow humans will be a far better answer to the problem of suffering than any theodicy.
Because "Faith" is required to "Believe in Lies" and why religions demand "Faithfulness" to maintain Power & Control over “believers” who will Force their Theocratic Fascism on everyone and terrorize non-believers who can see through their Lies
If Suffering is "god's" punishment for sin... then what is the Punishment HE should get!!???? If that being exists and is All Everything, then IT is the one that set everything up the way it turned out! With that kind of power, NOTHING could ever happen that IT didn't MAKE happen!! Bottom line is, NOTHING has set Mankind back more than belief in gods!!!
I'm looking for the discussion about how you Bart physically/emotionally deal with the loss of faith, and thus overall hope in general. Have you done a video? I've come to the same conclusions that Bart has, even to the point where I wish I hadn't. I absolutely see the physical benefit that humans ultimately obtain with faith (in something. Anything). But I can't just make myself believe. Even though I wish I could
There a ton of psychological tricks that you can play on yourself that provide similar benefits, as long as you stay aware of the fact that you're the one playing. I personally revel in the fact that over millions of years of life evolving through incredibly adverse circumstances I am here right now. I also am constantly amazed at the number of unique things that the world has to reveal, despite it being said that there was nothing new. Also, the task of rewiring thoughts and memories after accepting a faith system is an ever present task.
Thanks for perhaps your best podcast. May i suggest that you could elaborate further regarding the notions that god is all-powerful and that he/she is all-loving. Also perhaps you might address the problems of theodicy which arise from (strict) monotheism. I very much share your bemused facial expression at the bizarre "justifications" for suffering. Perhaps we are all doomed BUT we all live in hope. MANY THANKS.
I do think that the correct way to frame the issue as a problem of suffering and not a problem of evil. To solve the problem of suffering is much more difficult, as one could argue that evil has agency, whereas suffering can be random. In the problem of suffering, I also think that people often forget that humans are one of many species that can suffer with pain and fear. For example, I have difficult understanding why a tri-Omni god would even create a world with carnivores. Does a rabbit that is caught and eaten by a coyote not horribly suffer at the moment of their death? If God is truly omnipotent and all good, why not just design all living creates to be herbivores?
Agreed. Also, Imagine if a god had made our “intelligent “ species asexual. Literally half of all suffering would have been eliminated. And that without affecting free will. Seems simple to me. There are many such species.
I studied Buddhism, and the explanation does make sense to me, but I don't know if it makes sense to others. (1) The concept is like an assumption that we owed someone debts or did evil acts that we did from previous lives and is now need to repaid to someone in this life. For example, the previous life is like a person had committed murder year ago , but assuming we don't know about ; however, in this life that person is putting to death that we are witnessing now. Basically, that person is paying for the crime; however, if we don't this person committed a crime, we would question or complain why God doesn't intervene to prevent other put this person to death ? (2) when a person planted crops / raised livestocks this year can be considered as this lifetime , next life this person can harvest what for his hard works. Why some people are born in the wealthy family and while others are born in a poor family. Some people have opportunity to migrate to America while other died in war or died on the way getting there , where that person is not having the same opportunity as others, etc. Basically, we have good lives now because of our going works from previous lives, while we have a bad or suffering may be because of bad things we had done to others previous lives, and now we have to pay our debts .
Great points! I deconverted a little over a year ago for this very reason. The moment it hit me was reading a comments section on RUclips, I think on a video about disability, and seeing stories from people who have to live with horrible chronic conditions. Without listing out those 3 statements, I quickly realized I had come to the same conclusion. If God exists and is loving, he could do something about suffering, especially suffering from disease or natural disaster that isn't caused by another person, but he doesn't. The idea of a God who could create us but not stop suffering or do a good enough job creating us that we wouldn't have terrible diseases seemed completely ridiculous. So that left with me with either no God or a non loving God. And if there's a non loving God, I want nothing to do with him. But I see no evidence for a God anymore anyway. I think it's up to us to help others and relieve suffering as much as we can, both for people today and future generations, since this planet and this life is all we have.
I used to be agnostic but now a Christian. Surely Bart knows the meaning of Jesus last words in Mark. So why not explain it rather than mislead about it? We need to be aware of semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
@@paulkiernan3256Sir/Ma’am, you have nothing. Nothing at all…zero…zilch. Mislead??? Educate yourself. Have you read his books?? Have you studied ancient near eastern literature??? Have you actually read the bible….the whole bible???? Get in reality. Respectfully
I think if God did exist, he might allow minor harm and suffering to occur, especially if he arranged for the overall benefits which occurred later to outweigh the original minor harm and suffering. However, this just doesn't work with levels of moderate, major, or horrible suffering. If he did exist, God would prevent those. But they occur. Therefore, God does not exist!
Hi! I am an atheist (I was raised that way), which is not that strange, cause I am from Sweden. I am also a determinist, that is I fail to see how free will could exist at all. Even so, I greatly appreciate all your RUclips talks about the New Testament, early christianity and so forth. Thanks for these well made videos, always excellent content! Now a question: how is it that people struggling with the theodicy problem seldom seem to end up with the logical solution that God is evil? Or that he is not almighty? Never having been a believer myself, perhaps I fail to understand something here... Regards Torgny Hedström, Swedish linguist
The Christian tradition is shaped by the philisophical tradition of Perfect Being theism, which holds very strongly that God is both all-powerful and all-good. Even if these ideas aren't explicit in the Bible, early Christian theology was formed just as much by these philisophical considerations as it was by Scriptural ones.
The conclusions that God is evil or not almighty are not legitimate answers because BY DEFINITION God is perfectly moral AND all-powerful. So, given the horrible harms in our world, there is only one correct conclusion -- God does not exist. Now, you could hypothesize that another deity, who is not God, might exist, and this deity might be amoral, immoral, or weak. That might work. The confusion often lies in equating "God" with "god" and the two are just not the same thing.
God was Titus the Chrestus, author of All biblical scripture Titus was Jacob, Israel, Enoch before that, Titus was Dionysus God of wine fertility and the underworld,read Isaiah 63 and you'll see Titus's satire from his previous visits,70AD was history repeating itself,why all the Gospels contradict each other , different Jesus's, Jesus just means saviour in Greek, Titus called all rebellious leaders Jesus, satire.
@@whittfamily1Fool, Titus was the living God, Incarnated to destroy Lucifer along with 2 million Zionists, they wouldn't stop sacrificing to their God Yahweh, Solomon's temple built by Hiram Abiff, Satan,bible is Satire but true,Titus had a dark sense of humour,read Isaiah 63 and you'll see Titus's satire,lol
Bart, thanks for your deep and sincere thoughts. This came up at Bible study last year with people giving the typical evangelical answers. I gave exactly the same responses as Bart. We have no answer. But I'll recount an incident which I believe gives us the best non-answer we have. When someone dear asked me how God could such create a world, I was about to give a snarky reply, but something prevented me. Whether divine influence or what I don't know, but I couldn't say what I wanted. I found myself saying, we don't know why but for now God wants us to trust him. This person seemed to accept it straightaway. Took me a while to accept it myself - which shows that the answer did not come from me. I've had several such uncanny sometimes supernatural experiences throughout life which have consistently pointed me in the direction of trusting God, which is why I still believe.
That's a lovely answer. Not surprising it had a good effect. But isn't it really still a non-answer? I have a painful disease right now. Some people get so bad they die and even some appear to go insane with the pain, writing gibberish on social media. This is horrifying to me. So when I see this I find it difficult to trust. Like starving children. Should we tell them to trust? In Russia they have had to resort to cannibalism in cold winters. So I am contemplating suicide because I don't think that I can trust the future. What would you say to me?
@@joecheffo5942 for me, it's not enough to convince me that God is all good, but every time i've stopped trusting, something would happen to bring me back. I've resigned myself that God wants me to trust him. it's a non-answer, but it's enough to keep going. what would I say to you? as c s lewis wrote, each person has their own story. i don't have an answer and i'm unqualified to give you one. but i would not criticize you if you found life so unbearable it had to end.
Another great video as always. Back in the day when I was a christian, I always had trouble with this subject. Eventually, I just got to the conclusion that, if god is the ultimate sovereign of all existence and that if he can change any aspect of reality in a snap of a finger, then whatever he says is true, as he can change reality to fit whatever he is currently thinking. Therefore, if one day god decided he would torture and kill all children in the world and then send all those children to be tortured again in hell and then claim he was good and loving for doing such things, he would be good and loving by the simple fact that he was the ultimate judge of what is good and love... yeah, it was very scary to live in a world that I believed worked that way and I am really glad I no longer believe in such "loving" god(or any gods at all).
I used to be agnostic but now a Christian. Surely Bart knows the meaning of Jesus last words in Mark. So why not explain it rather than mislead about it? We need to be aware of semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
Thank you professor for shearing your life and passion with us. I'm truly a better person after discovering your words.. in my opinion I guess. But you explain in a way so clearly that even someone like me with limited education can understand. Again thank you..
I personally found the Daoist tale of "the old man who lost his horse (塞翁失馬 焉知非福)" more helpful than "God has a plan" despite being raised Christian. It's often translated as "a blessing in disguise," but actually more complex and deeper than that.
I like the Japanese version (禍福は糾える縄の如し, misfortune and fortune are like strands twisted together in twine), although I'm fond of that story of the old man who had a contrary outlook on life.
This is a interesting topic. I was raised Catholica but no longer believe. As to the notion of free will I don't see how it can exist. I do things as a result of conscious and unconscious processing in my brain. So in that sense I'm much like algorithmic processing in a computer. Some apologists attempt to insert randomness to explain free will but if I'm subject to random influences how can that be the result of me choosing one option over another? As far as the question of evil and suffering an all powerful god could have created the world anyway he wanted. Heck he and angels/devils don't even need a physical world to exist. As Bart mentioned the evolution of the concept of evil by Hebrew scholars is the result of trying to explain their situation. For me it is simple: the natural world is all there is and suffering is the result of the evolution of coconsciousness to be aware of one's self and as a protection mechanism from harm.
If an all powerful god had simply created us asexual the amount of suffering could have been literally cut in half. And that without effecting free will…go figure.
Curious now, Megan identifies as a Christian? I remember her saying that her son was questioning about the afterlife, and she told him there wasn't any. This was back around October or so I think. Maybe I have that wrong?
Great discussion as always - looking for logic in the bible is like looking for diamonds in a bowl of cheerios - most of the Christians I know won't discuss their beliefs bcause they know there are lots of holes- I think its ok because they want a place where they think the good is and they don’t care about the philosophy of it. Religion is brain soothing and that's best when you have closed loops where you don’t xamine your thoughts-my brain soothing, comes from questioning everything and finding answers- it’s way more fun
I disagree, there is plenty of logic in the bible.. Just as there is in star trek. The bible is an example of why logic is a must, it needs evidence to suggest its in anyway true... There's plenty of illogical nonsense too, Tbf.
@@rahowherox1177 that’s the point- Star Trek is fiction and so is the Bible- ok yes there is logic but then that logic is contradicted somewhere else with other logic - god is loving, but he punishes with death, boils, disease- illogical
My son and I got into an argument at church because I asked what if a young girl was kidnapped and kept away from society then at some point she dies without knowing Jesus does she go to heaven or hell? We were told hell. We were pretty much ushered out of church that day. To me that says God is definitely not just.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz's solution to Suffering was that the world is in a pre-established spherical harmony, and thus is the best of all possible worlds. (Voltaire did a great refutation of that idea in his novel "Candide".) I always was under the impression that Mr. Leibniz was anticipating Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem two hundred years later, which means that you can't have a (logical) system which is at the same time complete and without contradiction (and includes Arithmetic). Leibniz tried to handcuff God with mathematical necessity, because even an omnipotent being can't overcome a mathematical proof. and thus our world of all thinkable worlds is still the world with the least amount of suffering. (Some time travel stories like to elaborate on this idea because whatever the hero in their stories tries to affect the future, each time it turns worse.)
It’s been a long time since I read Russell’s History of Philosophy but if I remember correctly Russell thought that the stuff about this being the best of all possible worlds was essentially something Leibniz wrote to please the people who sponsored his work and not something Leibniz really believed.
@@michaeldebellis4202 That is said about several prominent philosophers. For example, Descartes, I've read that this philosophy is bad because he didn't care, he only wanted to be left alone so he could do math and science. I found that idea quite funny since people have dedicated a lot of serious thoughts to those systems.
My take is that what leibniz did is to put the mathematical necessity above God and what Godel found out is that any mathematical(logical) system is incomplete within that system, so both are almost opposite views, aren't they?
@@18890426 To the contrary: Even an idealized world like a logical model is necessarily full of conflicts (contradictions) and unsolved problems (incompleteness). How much more will the real world have them and cause endless suffering?
@@michaeldebellis4202 I am not sure Russell is right here. Because in Physics, especially if you tackle Physics with differential equations, as Leibniz invented them (and Isaac Newton before him, but he never published his ideas until he read of Leibniz's independent invention), you quickly come to a realization that in Physics, real phenomena often happen in the mathematically optimal way. For instance, Light always travels along the path that takes the shortest possible time for a given starting point A and target point B, even if it has to go through different media with different speeds of light, e.g. from air to water to glass, back to air if you for instance look through a glass bowl filled with water. So, Leibniz had a reason to believe that Nature (Greek: physike) is optimal in the mathematical sense, given the physical laws.
I quit going to church after I heard a sermon about how prayer helped someone get a dorm room they wanted. Because I prayed frantically that my son would live and yet he did not. A God that says yes and no so arbitrarily is too cruel for me.
It really makes me sick. I know what its like to loose a loved one. If I had the power to stop it from happening again I wouldn't let anyone experience that. But no God just sits and watches
Wow, I'm surprised that Magan is still a Christian after everything she's heard in this channel alone. I respect her even more now for her understanding and being open minded.
@daveredinger1947 Yes, anything is indeed possible. Indoctrination is also very powerful. When I told my wife that I became an atheist, she was emotionally damaged. Even after changing her beliefs and showing her evidence against God and the Bible's inherency and infallibility, she came to agree with me that the Bible wasn't reliable. She even agreed that what is taught in the church very problematic. Despite all that, she simply can't accept the idea that God and the Biblical Jesus are man made ideas. She still prays that God reveals himself to me one day. As mad as it makes me, I respect her beliefs and as long as it brings her comfort, I'm okay with it.
I think Bart's answer, I don't know, is the best option. I think that the very human questions, why this or that, can be "the devils questions" in that they are distractions from the path of Christianity. When Lot's wife is "turned into a pillar of salt" its not that she sees what those naughty people are doing but that she turns away from the path.
It seems the most likely answers to me are A) There is no God, or B) If there are Gods, it is a polytheistic pantheon or C) There are Gods, but they don't care if people suffer, and probably don't care about people at all.
The correct answer is closest to B. There ultimately is only one God, but He is absolutely transcendent and somewhat remote. Many lesser powers are evil
@@catholicconvert2119 That doesn't make any sense. In that case, he could completely stop evil. He chooses to Allow it to happen, so it would be more like C.
I think it ultimately stems from what Bart said around the 38:35 mark. "I don't think that good in the end is going to triumph." As a Christian, I can't find hope in that, and neither can a lot of other people.
But God doesn't always win as we want, because of how life is. Furthermore, where's the God in sending people to eternal burning/eternal death for simply not praying? As a Christian, I don't even think God cares about this plane cause He's seemingly more absent on Earth than an absent parent & Revelations is an apocalyptic myth, so it's non-canon in my eyes.
Love from India bart , born a Hindu but now an atheist but still love to read the Bible and the buddhist pali canon a lot. I think people are bashing christianity a lot for its errors in logic in the Bible but as a Hindu that implies a great diversity of thought that characterises the western psyche. Just because the scribes of Islam and Judaism had maintained some strict rules regarding discrepancies they r even more I would say harmful in their sense of God than say the Christian God is. I hope people do videos on the origins of Rama and Krishna of Indian scriptures as well ,many people believe they actually existed in the way it was described just as any Christian does but somehow that isn't a thing these days. I couldn't explain that yes buddha and mahaveera did exist but they r verified using sources of history not some belief and they were very much human in every way ,in the pali canon buddha talks about his back pains ,his initial dysentries ,his losing control due to extreme ascetism etc where we see a more humane picture of the person ,but I think the figures of Ram ,Krishna ,Moses didn't exist at all and if they did in many way are a combination of different tribes gods or ideals. Muhammad existed but does it change anything coz he bases his revelation on existence of Moses and the old testament idea of God, and virgin conception of christ( literally) etc but there clearly a lot of hidden truth about the rise of Islam and it's historical origins coz there were many Jews ,Christian monstaivs already living in Arabia ,also maybe the ebionites who had a very different view on Christ etc although I do think sufi movement in Islam is tied to Christian monastic mysticism passed on and adopted in Arabia and then in Islam. Maybe ,don't take me wrong u sound more Christian than any of those fundamentalist dudes 😂
We are not going to find a solution to excuse God for the existence of suffering while we make it ourselves. The posture of not accepting responsibility for our own contribution means we lack empathy and our judgement of everyone is darkened by this blindness.
Regardless of whether you believe in God or not, it's a terrible mistake to put suffering at the feet of the creator (whether that be a god, the universe itself or otherwise) and not at your own. When I deeply think about it, I cannot come up with a single instance of suffering that humans couldn't resolve if we all put in as much effort as we possibly could towards that goal. For example we should all remember and be eternally grateful for the relatively recent, damn near eradication of polio. A disease which previous to that paralyzed thousands per year. What's stopping you from doing that? Sure maybe you don't know how to cure diseases but you can sure as Hell start small and work your way up from there. I can understand why people aren't exactly desperate to see it that way, seeing as it puts all the responsibility for suffering onto us, but I fear the alternative is far, far worse. Blaming God for the responsibility you don't want to take and moving on so you don't have to feel that the weight of suffering is on you. Theres a reason why Johann Goethe's Faust is tempted into a life of satanic depravity with the very same arguments made here. If you're no longer responsible for the suffering of the world, why bother? Why make things better if suffering is the mere unavoidable mechanism of a cold and calculated universe? Why not instead just live every second with pure hedonism and a complete lack of regard for the trouble that results. I implore you, regardless of your faith, to take suffering on your own damn shoulders and not take out your bitterness for the woes of the world on God. Because if you can take it upon yourself and act accordingly, you have no idea how much suffering you could alleviate and how much good you could create in the world.
Um, remember those tectonic plates moving around causing earthquakes, tidal waves, tsunamis thus causing suffering and drowning innocent children and babies that did not ask to be born with original sin! How do humans fix those moving plates?😁LOL
People who believe in a God alway try to justify their misfortune by claiming is becouse they don’t pray enough, they do not attend church mass , etc….The real and cruel reason is that there isn’t a God to take care of ourself. People suffer becouse that is the law of life, becouse we live in a material World where there is enjoyment but also suffering. Have the courage to be yourself and by yourself . Do not expect nothing from a God , otherwise you are going to be disappointed. You create your present and future, not a God. You obtain success by your own effort not by a god effort. Love and accept reality.
I have no use for a God that inflicts suffering because we failed to worship Him properly. I have even less use for people who peddle that for their own profit and self aggrandizement. Book of Job: back as an undergraduate, I wrote a research paper about Bargaining with the Devil in Literature: A Game Theoretic Analysis. One of the sections was on the Book of Job. One of the conclusions I reached was that had Job not questioned why God was afflicting him was that the next game to be played between God and Satan would have involved Job’s wife.
As a former believer taught as God is Love, I still wonder why I didn’t realized how can a LOVE allow sufferings and pains to continue😅, even how can a LOVE say I want you followers of me go through persecution😢
My daughter was sick most of her life. When she lived and after she died, religious and esp hyper-religious people (including family) said or implied that it was because of how or what we believed. Not how we treated our fellow man, but whether you prayed enough or went to church enough. It’s was one of the cruelest things done to us. My father told me once that he thought my youngest brother had Down Syndrome was because of his failings. He was the nicest person I know and kind to everyone. It made me so sad to hear he felt that way for decades.
The pain that these people caused you is for the sole purpose of building your character and those around you.
….I wish I could believe that….
@@mr.c2485 Yeah they can stop “helping” now
Religious people can be unbelievably thoughtless & callous. 😢
a lot of religious ppl are just effing evil.
Buddhism is a better source for thinking about suffering. It's caused by human unconsciousness, and we generate our own suffering.
"People, for some reason, find solace in the idea that they have an explanation for something that has no explanation." That perfectly sums up pretty much every religion throughout history.
Excellent response from Bart. "I don't know, but I will do what I can to make things better."
The point to emphasize here is that the problem of suffering is not just a religious problem; it’s a universal problem. I wish Ehrman would take an agnostic (so to speak) view about whether good will eventually triumph.
By the way, if you want to do what you can to make things better, the place to start is at your job. What you do (and what your company does-for which you are responsible) during working hours will have a far greater effect on the world than anything you do elsewhere. If your career goal is to make as much money as possible, it’s very likely that you’re doing far more harm than good, and giving to charity on the side or helping old ladies across the street is not going to come close to atoning.
What if helping is the purpose?
@@awakeningmatters1111 It can certainly be YOUR purpose if you want it to be.
I came up in a theology that is along these lines:
“ if I am suffering God is testing me”
“If you are suffering God is punishing you “
Such a horrible world view
Suffering and evil don’t just “exist”, they’re actively perpetuated by forces that we do understand but fail to resolve because everyone feels bound by their own immediate interests. Spiritual explanations of the problem are no more than an excuse to continue avoiding proactive solutions.
Say it again, Sam !
Yes, I agree. This world is suffering, no need to question why, we see the selfishness and greed, hate at the root of suffering.
Well said
@@amber40494 which is the result of our conditions
I heard it put like this…
“Imagine all the things you would do, if you were God. Now realize you worship a deity that has done none of those things.”
Yes, what wpuld we do, if we were almighty like God... so many things would change
But if we would not only be almight, but also all-wise, all-knowing and all-good, we would do exactly the same as God does it...
Imagine thinking u can imagine what it’s like to be all knowing. Knowing not just everything EVERYTHING in the past present and all possible futures. And then thinking u can grasp that and make a sound judgement off that. Arrogance knows no bounds.
@@swissapologeticsI don’t think I would feel the need to bet on someone’s devotion to me while they’re losing everything including their health, then chastise them and demand obedience with a lengthy diatribe when they ask why I’m doing this to them.
But then, I’m not all mighty. So maybe the true god is power. It certainly has gone to YHWHs head
@@codykuch5293
What is the first and most important thing God demands? Is it obediance? No, its love. You shall love God - because He loves you.
What is the second one? Is it devotion? No it is trust - you shall believe in Gods promises and trust fully in Him, because He is pure goodness and will never break His word.
So why then do you reduce God to something like an evil dictator? Obviously your problem with God comes from your side.
@@swissapologeticsif your parent took away all your possessions, killed your kids and infected you with bacteria and viruses, demanded you pledge yourself to him/her unwaveringly then gave you everything back (including adopted kids) and took you to the hospital
Would you consider that parent as loving?
Hearing how Bart took into account the beliefs of Megan and of his wife as people who identify as christians, I now DEMAND (very nicely and eagerly, of course) an episode with Bart interviewing Megan and her experience as the co-host of this podcast. As someone who also identifies as Christian and fallows Bart's work with utmost interest, I'd love to hear what Megan has to say.
yes!
Megan really has become a good interviewer. Pays attention, asks appropriate follow ups, and lets Bart talk without interrupting.
I agree. As good as I've ever heard.
Mad taste in glasses though 😂
She’s gotten better and better over time to the point now where I just think they are a perfect pair.
@k.c8658 He is very knowledgeable and I enjoy listening to him, learnt much from him, but sometimes he gives me the impression he feels he needs to throw a bone every now and then to the Christian community he deconverted out of, I might be wrong but that's my impression about some things I have heard him say. That diminishes my respect for him a wee bit, but all in all I think he is valuable to people on the fence about their faith/ religion.
@@MavStSmitty I am not saying he should be mean or unkind about religion. I don't know, just seems he holds back a bit with regard to religious community, I may be wrong, thanks for your thoughts on the matter, you may be right. I have to go back and listen to some of his speeches again.
As someone who is no longer a Christian primarily(but far from the only reason) because of the problem of evil, I appreciate this.
@@John.Flower.Productions I'm no longer a Christian because the premise of a good all powerful god conflicts with both the world as we understand it and the Bible itself. Among a number of other things. That's the biggest issue but far from the only one
The problem of evil, as Bart generally put it, is that an all knowing, all loving and all powerful god doesn't exist because evil exists. He either is evil himself or refuses to deal with the problem or is unable to deal with the problem.
I used to be agnostic but now a Christian. Surely Bart knows the meaning of Jesus last words in Mark. So why not explain it rather than mislead about it? We need to be aware of semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
@@paulkiernan3256 because people had different interpretations of what Jesus says in Mark. The gnostics felt "My god why have you forsaken me?' made it clear the spirit of God was leaving the human Jesus, for example
Probably every sentence of the Bible has been debated and will be debated forever because that's how humans are. Barts interpretation is his interpretation.
@@MrDalisclock For me it is thee main reason
@MrDalisclock but Jesus was reciting the beginningblinenofva psalm thatvend in victory. That much is a fact. Bart certainly know this.
I've read Dr. Ehrman's book on this topic and find his realizations mirror my own. When people tell me thay can't understand why God would permit suffering, I've gotten into the habit of saying that there are simply some questions you can't ask. I have no understanding of how large the universe is, what shape it is, or if there might be more than one. And so I find it better to just leave it be. Try to avoid pain, try to avoid hurting anyone, make whatever you can better, and strive to grow with all experiences.
When a three year old child died from being forgotten in a hot car several years ago in a town I used to live in, many people posted that we should all be praying for justice for the child. Why would “God” care about influencing the ins and outs of the justice system when “He” didn’t care enough to prevent the child from dying a horrible death in the first place?
Sometimes good prevails and sometimes bad prevails. It's the yin/yang of life. This was a really great episode. Thanks Bart, Megan et al. And thank you for answering my question.
Not biblical. (Perhaps you’re not a Christian)
Now this is one I was looking forward to watching. Thank you both.
Loved this! Facing the possibility that our suffering has no explanation is too unbearable for most which is why we contrive explanations.
There are naturalistic explanations for suffering, but God is irrelevant. God does not exist, and this has been proven.
Some people are so troubled about not knowing the "answers" that they have to latch onto made up stories and fiction to fill that void. I would like to know the answers, if I could, but I'm not willing to invest in some fairy tale because the answers are unavailable.
@@jerometaperman7102 I know the answer! The answer is that God does not exist, period.
I’ve never understood that. How is it comforting to know an omnipotent God created a world with so much suffering? IMO, the probable and rational explanation that life arose as a result of Evolution and other theories of science and that nature has no agency is not only true but more comforting. I don’t have to tie myself in logical knots reconciling an omnipotent God who still allows suffering. I just understand that a sad truth of the wonderful gift of life is that besides experiencing joy we also have to experience suffering. And that we have the power to make less suffering both for ourselves and others, even though of course we can’t eliminate it completely.
@@whittfamily1 That can be an answer only in an abstract impersonal sense. If we have any depth whatsoever we have still to grapple with how to find meaning in our own personal intense suffering and in the suffering of those around us.
We suffer so we created a god.
Good point, and Superman movie fascinated me as a child, the entertainment business world created such movies knowing children will love heroes! Same with religion, Saviors😅
Professor Bart is big hearted,and it truly helps bolster his perspective on the Bible. Many believers take it for granted that non-believers are amoral when nothing could be further from the truth. Being an authentic human means, regardless of belief or race, you want to be decent,do the right thing and can't help but empathize with another's suffering, human or animal. Regardless of belief,that should be a great source of comfort.
Wow, I'm new here and have just been captivated by this podcast. I went and grabbed like 10 different episodes I believe and I'm finally "caught up". Ended up buying MJ and HJBG. Haven't read but excited. Also purchased one of the courses and certainly going to purchase the course with the 10 different scholars. As someone who struggled with their Faith for so long he has been super helpful for me being Agnostic now. In one of his videos he talks about people not accepting when they are wrong and I just love that because I literally live by that everyday.
I've alteady listened to the podcast version of this but I tuned in here to see what glasses Megan is wraring and what colour her hair is.
We suffer for many reasons. As there is no god, it has nothing to do with our well being.
You're trying to hold on to your atheist identity. That's the reason why you're saying there is no god.
I trust that the suffering here teaches us something important. Mortality is just a small part of our existence.
Suffering teaches the millions of people who are born just to slowly die of disease and malnutrition before they can even think rationally what?
I have the same question that why I left my faith and started to study my original religion (Buddhism). As a result I found out that suffering is the part of human life. Everybody will age, pain and die. It makes more sense than praying and asking God.
You needed to study a religion to find out that "Everybody will age, pain and die"?
@@zray2937 Sure, I study religion as a tool and I don’t strict to the religion itself. There are other useful concepts which make my life happier.
Ahh yes…the infamous “circle of life”. Not buying it. The ideas involved in such a world view offer none of the big three…hope, meaning, purpose.
@@mr.c2485it is okay if it not useful for you. Hope you have a great day.🙏😇
If suffering is God's punishment for sin, for what purpose was the sacrifice of Jesus?
Jesus gives you a shot to avoid hell nothing more
Jesus just means saviour in Greek, Titus called all rebellious leaders Jesus, satire, Titus crucified Jesus Lucifer along with 2 million Zionists,why All the gospels contradict each other, different Jesus's, Titus was also Jesus(Saviour), Mary was what the Romans called all rebellious women, Magdala was a town near Galilee, Titus's satire, Titus my one true son in the faith, there's a clue in that statement, Paul was Titus, Titus had lots of Pen names.
@@catholicconvert2119 Must have sucked to have died before Jesus.
@@ChannelSRL1 Not necessarily some parts of hell were pretty awesome
The fundamentalist church I was raised in would preach that it was someone’s sin that was the reason someone died young. So much trauma for us kids raised hearing that every week.
Imteresting... because isnt that the lesson from the book of Job? You can never know why things happen to someone.
@swissapologetics "you can never know".
Except that a foundational teaching of Christianity is that we DO know...the "wages of sin is death". Suffering, pain and death are the direct result of man's sin. Before the Fall, no sickness, no predation, no suffering, no death.
Except we know that in terms of life on Earth, death is a feature not a defect...plant, animal and microbial creatures have lived, died, went extinct for hundreds of millions of years before modern humans existed as a species.
Were those deaths somehow anticipating The Fall (effect preceding cause)? That defies logic.
@@MikeB3542
Its not about the question, how death came into the world. Its about why something bad happens to a person. You cant say its always a punishment for sin. The 3 friends of Job did that, and they were wrong and rebuked.
Dont go to someone that was hit hard by a bad event and tell them its because of his sin... thats one of the big lessons from the book of Job
@@swissapologetics To religion it doesn’t matter why bad things happen to someone in reality. They need to make sure you know it’s your fault or your choice to be that way or you did something. They have to teach this from a young age. It’s just old fashioned terrorism of kids so they will obey out of fear when they get older. Religion in the USA is very much like the Catholic Church in Europe from the Middle Ages.
Thus the evolution of bed wetting. 😮
Well I must be punished for my parents sins or sins while I was in the womb, because I have suffered in many ways from day one to now my 60th year! Suffered the same before I was Christian and after, nothing changed. Many people around me, Christian and non, seem to have wonderful lives. My crap just keeps going on in health, mind, relationships, etc.
Wish I had words of condolence. I’ve tried before but all attempts fall horribly short of the intention purpose.
Great episode. I wanted to hear all the attempts to explain the theodicy problems.
I'm suffering because I don't have Megan's FF7 mug!
_Now that, is a topic, I'd like to see discussed ;_
How can any modern, intelligent woman possibly accept a God that is based on a book, (Bible), that is so clearly misogynistic ?
_Truly perplexing._
You could ask them. Directly. Individually. If you are looking for why that is.
@@pdyt2009The art of _cherry picking ;_
In my experience, Christians in general tend to skip over the nasty stuff & focus on the more altruistic aspects of the Bible.
As a woman, I've been asking myself the same question since I was 8 years old (grew up in a protestant family)
@@babyruthless9670 I think that most Christians have a "cherry picked" version of the Bible.
I bet most of them have no idea, just how morally bankrupt, the biblical God actually is.
I was looking forward to this episode, thank you, Bart & Megan🙂
Ditto
Great show. Thank you both. I would like to see a discussion about “free will” but not from the philosophical view rather from the Christian theological perspective.
We live in a fallen world. All we can do is seek the Kingdom of God (love one another.)
as someone who they tried to raise catholic, but i just never paid attention to the teachers and priests when they tried to brainwash me in grade school (i guess i've always been an athiest despite family and peer pressure), i have recently been listening to biblical scholars do deep dives. it kind of helps understand how and why people do end up in the various religions and allows me to better communicate with people...🎉
Catholicism has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.
Catholicism is a Religion based upon Greco-Roman mythologies.
@tokyo333 - I was VERY religious throughout my teens thinking about what "God's special plan" was for me and anticipating it, but then I guess my rational pre-frontal lobe came online and I outgrew the fairy tale of religion.
I recently did a cursory read of the OT. And I tried to read it as I would read any story or account of events. Whether fictional or non-fictional -- not really something I set out to explore. What I came away with was somewhat unexpected. The thing basically consists of accounts of a raging SuperPower apparently bent on making life on earth miserable for human beings.
In this context, the question posed here is ridiculous (assuming "God" here is the same entity as the SuperPower to which I refer). The obviously correct answer to the question is this:
"God is simply doing his job... the best and only way he knows."
If you read the Bible it becomes _very_ clear that the statement "God is benevolent" is... problematic.
Edit: When we find something that we _want_ to believe, we ask "can I believe it?" And we look for one example, and we don't question it too much. When it's something we _don't_ want to believe, we ask "must I believe it?" And if we can find one counter-example, we're satisfied with that. And that's how intelligent people end up with simple questions to complex answers.
If you read the Bible god is problematic
@Valdagast
Pre-Babylonian captivity:
El = title meaning God
Elah = God's feminine title
Elohim = sons of El
Post-Babylonian captivity:
El = God
Elah = God
Elohim = God
This is called "syncretization" and some biblical character referred to as the "harlot of Babylon" did the syncretizing.
Reading the Bible using the Pre-Babylonian captivity definitions of God's titles seems like a good idea 💡. Try using the NOG translation it's on Bible Gateway and doesn't remove God's titles or the name (Yah/Yahweh) of the deciever.
[In the Old Testament]:
Elohim from Genesis 1 is a title.
Yahweh Elohim from Genesis 2 is a name.
Amos 5
Names of God Bible
27 I will send you into exile beyond Damascus, says Yahweh, whose name is Elohe Tsebaoth.
Amos 5
King James Version
27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is The God of hosts.
I wonder who the usurper/deciever is...maybe it's the guy with names that appear to be titles and is Evil af? Also, context really matters in Hebrew and "Elohim" from Genesis 1 is possessive (God's) context while Yahweh "Elohim" from Genesis 2 is plural (gods) context.
[In the New Testament]:
Christ is a title.
Jesus Christ is a name.
Jesus Christ, in plain English, is Joshua Chosen. Christ/Chosen is being used as a name here and deliberately so. This is Yahweh Elohim from Genesis 2 all over again. Look for when Christ is used correctly (as a title). The OT, NT and Quran all have a good guy and a bad guy.
Titles = good guy
Names faking like they're titles = bad guy
Is anyone really surprised that it was the bad guy who got nailed to a tree and cursed forever? Is everyone retarded?
[In the Quran]:
Ilah is a title.
Allah is a name.
The Arabic "Ilah" in Hebrew is "Elah" which is God's feminine title.
The Arabic "Allah" in Hebrew is "Elohe" which is Yahweh's middle name.
Yah Tsebaoth (Yaldabaoth) has 99 names in Islam (but a title ain't one haha 😂).
See how the usurper/deciever operates?
The Bible should be renamed "God's titles vs TheGod's names." Anyone with a name was given a name, a created being. The essence of Paganism is worshipping that which is created (Genesis 2) rather than the Creator (Genesis 1).
Yah’s Bronze Age epithets (nicknames) were the Dragon, the Twisting Serpent and the Seven-headed Monster. That's back when he was called Yaw (see Mt Ebal curse tablet YHW) and before that he was called Yam (see Baal Cycle when Yam gets renamed to Yaw).
Yam is the Canaanite word for Sea. Biblical Leviathan and seven-headed Tannin are aspects of Yam.
Sea Beasts.
Recall: the villian of our story has many names (also nicknames) and wants to usurp God's titles. The villian is right there in the OT, NT and Quran faking like he's God's titles he simply tacks on a name. Any time you're reading some Evil manipulative horse 💩 in the Bible from a character claiming to be God I bet you a million dollars that's actually a name or a nickname, not one of God's titles (see Yahwist vs Elohist fragments of the Pentateuch).
Many of the bad actions which the Bible authors attributed to God are actions which God would not perform, if he did exist. So, the authors are just mistaken. They are probably delusional, lying, or writing fiction.
Agree. Also, I just started watching so don’t know if they will discuss this but how can we reconcile an omnipotent, benevolent God with a God who requires his son to be tortured to death on the cross? If he’s omnipotent then surely he could just forgive humanity without requiring a barbaric sacrifice.
@@michaeldebellis4202 yes, absolutely correct
As in Dr. Ehrman's encounter with Swinburne, the one I find so disturbing is when Christians practically swoon at the brave suffering of others, seeing it as God's lesson in "Grace".
There was a clip shared on social media a while back of a boy, about 10 -12 years old I think, who had a congenital disorder of collagen synthesis. Basically his skin could not hold any integrity and would come off in sheets essentially daily. He had to be constantly bandaged to keep his ever-evolving wounds covered. Once every four days or so, his mother would have to soak him in the tub and peel the bandages away to replace them, most often removing great portions of skin with it, creating new areas to be bandaged.
Every four days this mother had to flay her son alive, both of them weeping in different kinds of agony.
He was not expected to live to adulthood. During his interview, he was very poised and insightful. He'd made a peace with his situation that was far beyond the maturity he would have normally achieved. It was heartbreaking.
I was absolutely sickened at how many Christians found this child's example a message from God about how to live with grace and how to view this life. As if that wouldn't make God an utter monster to inflict this horror on these people, make their lives a nightmare of physical and mental aguish with a premature death to look forward to, just to give some number of other people the weepy strongfeels and bolster their faith in God and the idea that they'd get to live with this supreme sadist for eternity. After they die peacefully in their sleep at age 104, presumably.
Why that is comforting to them, I'll never understand. I don't understand why it would feel better to imagine there is a God allowing all manner of hideous suffering, intervening here and there with a "miracle" to remind everyone of His power.
The universe is often a brutal place where natural processes deliver both pleasurable life and terrible misfortunes. It's not less frightening to make the unnecessary (and inevident) addition of an Entity that has these terrible things scripted into Its plan, but might--if you beg hard enough and in the right way and in concert with enough prayer warriors--adjust Its plan for you. But It might not. Roll the dice and beg away.
Well stated!
You are a good hearted person and God would understand if he is real and loving.
God will reward those who don’t succumb to the fallacies of religion.
@@mr.c2485What does that even mean really?
Love this interview because I found myself in a very similar journey as Bart because of this question. ❤
I'm 71. When I look back and review my life I see that NOTHING was pointless. I either was learning a lesson or I realize now I dodged a bullet. As I get older I am aware of a state of mind that is beyond the physical....and a person has to learn their lessons to proceed. You have to be be able to "travel" in that realm and have complete control of your thinking and emotions.
So you have a new or extra non-physical mind, and you got it by learning life lessons and dodging bullets? Is that what you mean
@@jackfrosterton4135 Actually I was put on drugs at 4 to stop the visions after having minor brain damage. This allowed me to be aware of layers of reality that I wouldn't otherwise. I was mentored by my Christian Science Healer Grandmother who taught me my Mind Creates My Reality as long as you align with Spirit, so I use that "awareness" to interact with reality. There was drama. I lost EVERYTHING.
A Navajo friend asked me to rent her Casita just as lockdown hit and I'm just now coming out of 3 years of isolation. During this time I was REALLY angry at God and slowly I realized that everything had been done for my benefit. Spirit explained that for me to continue I would be interacting with a non-physical realm which is "above" the Physical and you navigate with your E-Motions. So you don"t want to be holding on to anger or other sad emotions because what you feel/think at this level will manifest that emotion.
Spirit is my daily companion and has proven IT"S existence in ways I have documented because for a long time I thought I was losing my Mind.
To cope I did a book of collages which now 40 years later are coming true.
One set was about people with Geronimo DNA. That was 1981. My son was born in 1984 and his kids have Geronimo DNA.
Long Story Short. I was put on drugs at 4 to stop the Visions. I was also raised by my Faith Healer Grandmother who mentored me in having control of my thought/emotions to be able to heal others.
Then in 1980 I met Larry. He rewired my Brain. He could read my mind and put thoughts into my mind. He would find me anywhere I went. This forced me to be VERY aware of my thinking and to also blank my thoughts so he couldn't find me. One time he took my "Mind" and held it in Outer Space. Scary.
This led me to be aware of a non physical reality where it was important to have control of ones emotions/thoughts. E-Motion moves you thru that SPACE.
Between then and now I lost EVERYTHING. I came to rent a friends casita here in NM just as the lock down started and I've been isolated for 3 years. This allowed me to let go of my anger and see how what I thought was a loss actually benefited me. I have nerves of steel now... and my Thinking became stronger as the negativity left. I could NOT reach this level if I brought heavy emotions along.
I'm 76 and I realise that life really is pointless. It is a constant joy to me.
@@joeg46Highlands I agree. Are we here to put all our $$ in our coffin when we die? Now that Movie Stars from my childhood are dead and forgotten, what point is fame?
Was anyone affected (like I was) hearing Bart and looking at the pain in his face when he quite pragmatically and as stoic as possible declared that he feels that the worst in us will likely succeed us. How troubling to feel this way. People must unite and rise and we need to keep doing it throughout our past and present to allow for the future. Love coming from Australia Bart, thank you for your contributions.
A believer with whom I worked told me he was confused because he had learned that a niece of his had lost an eye in an accident. His confusion was because he had told his sister, her mother, that it was probably all to the good because she had been a bit wild. What confused him was that his sister told him to F-off (which made me instantly like her better than him). He actually thought he was giving her comfort and did not understand why she reacted as she had. What comes through to me is so many of these people who insist that no matter how awful someone suffers it is for the good have absolutely no empathy or sympathy. It is just another form of blaming the victim. I have refrained from kicking them in the nards and asking if they thought that was for the good, so far. I suppose my having to suffer their idiocy means it is for the greater good, but then I really do not give a rip for that explanation either.
My all-time favorite Onion headline is: God answers crippled boy's prayers. God says "No."
I agree with your POV here. The believer is essentially saying that God punished the sister for her wildness by taking away one of her eyes. This is preposterous. If God did exist, then he would punish ethically. What is described would be unethical punishment.
As horrible as it sounds there's a sad comfort in the idea that there's a good reason for the horrible things that happen. When i was a christian my fav book in the Bible was Job. At the end of the book he asks God why he let him suffer so much. We know that God allowed Satan to test him, but God doesn't tell him that. He responds with indignation. Basically God says, "I'm the infinite creator of the universe. Who are you to question me?" It's twisted and dark, but there is something comforting that there's a good reason for evil. We just can't know that reason, at least not until we get to heaven maybe.
@@t_ylr There are causes of horrible harms, but there are not reasons. The distinction of "cause" and "reason" is very important. There is no good evidence that any deity exists and has reasons for allowing, enabling, authorizing, facilitating, or causing horrible harms.
The book of Job is not comforting to me or most rational thinking persons. It could not be true. It is a work of fiction. If God did exist, he would NEVER behave in the manner depicted in that book. He would never make a bet with Satan. He would never create Satan or allow him to continue to exist. He would never allow the horrible harms which occurred to Job in the story. If God existed and there were any harms, we would know the morally justified reasons for them because GOD WOULD TELL US WHAT THEY WERE! And finally, for horrible harms there are not morally justified reasons for an all-powerful person to allow them.
Job is still one of my favorite religious books because from it we can clearly see the inadequacies, irrationalities, and stupidities of religious thought.
@@t_ylr A Rabbi who taught ancient literature using the old testament told me (actually a whole class) that the Job story has been ruined by some unknown scribe who tacked on the happy ending. The original version ended with Job in sackcloth and ashes, with the point being believing confers no earthly guarantees. By restoring Job that point was lost.
The god always has an out…..I’ve heard them all. F that crap!
Whether it’s okay to allow suffering is the judgement we are making about ourselves first and foremost. Until we are clean of making suffering, our judgement lacks understanding because a mind that endures himself making suffering doesn’t understand even who he himself is, let alone any “gods.”
Buddhist thought regarding suffering even in the face of wealth and status (discussed around 2:20) is that suffering (in that context) is driven primarily by our attachment. This is not just attachment to things, but attachment to loved ones and even nostaligic memories. The ultimate truth of the world is that nothing last forever.
Now, I'm not Buddhist, so I probably butchered that explaination, but while I don't believe in much of the rest of it, that's pretty convincing lol
@tawan20082008 lol. Figures. I was remembering a religious studies class from 20 years ago, so I'm not surprised. Would be happy for correction
As a Muslim I love this podcast. When someone asks me why the suffering I say I don’t know.
What a wonderful series this is! I could listen to Dr. Ehrman for hours (and have, first learning of him from the Great Courses a couple decades ago), and Megan Lewis is a terrific interviewer.
Thank you Bart.
I doubt you will have the time to read all these comments, but I have to say Thank you, thank you, thank you for the best. podcast. ever. My religion is simple: two rules. You know what is wrong, don't do it. You know what is right. Do it.
Agreed
Sri Ramana Maharshi was once asked something similar:" If our goal is to attain Moksha, why were we born?" His answer was: "You weren't". An answer in the Advita (non-dual) Hindu sense would be that suffering is a result of the illusion that you are the body, that you were born, that you and the divine are actually separate. It takes the view that the mystical union with Sat Chit Ananda removes the entire question of suffering. I have experienced something of this when I was a believer, and it remains an open question for me now. I can't believe in the faith thatI was raised in or in the faith that I later pursued, but there is a sense that there is something just beyond my grasp that seems intuitively possible
Thank you.
Listening to Swami Sarvapriyananda has helped me a lot. The Self is not a knowledge to be acquired (which is primary) but a discernment, a realisation, an unraveling. Ramana Maharshi had his enlightenment in a flash when he was a schoolboy and he was in the natural state forever since. No struggle presumably because he was born ripe. For us, it is not merely intellectual; it does take a leap of faith but also detachment, a moral life, erasure of the ego and the end of desires.
35:47 Yep. I am a Christian, and this is indeed what I have to say one the issue. Some of the answers to the problem of suffering offer genuine insight and comfort, but none of them are wholly adequate, nor should we pretend they are. Instead, we must humble ourselves to acknowledge the depth and complexity of this issue. As Christians, attempting to practice a Christ-like compassion toward our fellow humans will be a far better answer to the problem of suffering than any theodicy.
Wow the starving child analogy was so simple and so apt. Im amazed i haven't heard this one before.
Because "Faith" is required to "Believe in Lies" and why religions demand "Faithfulness" to maintain Power & Control over “believers” who will Force their Theocratic Fascism on everyone and terrorize non-believers who can see through their Lies
He’s actually brilliant. Some things we just don’t have the answers for
If Suffering is "god's" punishment for sin... then what is the Punishment HE should get!!???? If that being exists and is All Everything, then IT is the one that set everything up the way it turned out! With that kind of power, NOTHING could ever happen that IT didn't MAKE happen!!
Bottom line is, NOTHING has set Mankind back more than belief in gods!!!
I'm looking for the discussion about how you Bart physically/emotionally deal with the loss of faith, and thus overall hope in general. Have you done a video? I've come to the same conclusions that Bart has, even to the point where I wish I hadn't. I absolutely see the physical benefit that humans ultimately obtain with faith (in something. Anything). But I can't just make myself believe. Even though I wish I could
There a ton of psychological tricks that you can play on yourself that provide similar benefits, as long as you stay aware of the fact that you're the one playing.
I personally revel in the fact that over millions of years of life evolving through incredibly adverse circumstances I am here right now. I also am constantly amazed at the number of unique things that the world has to reveal, despite it being said that there was nothing new.
Also, the task of rewiring thoughts and memories after accepting a faith system is an ever present task.
It is this problem of suffering combined with the geography of faiths that helped turn me to be a non believer
Thanks for perhaps your best podcast. May i suggest that you could elaborate further regarding the notions that god is all-powerful and that he/she is all-loving. Also perhaps you might address the problems of theodicy which arise from (strict) monotheism. I very much share your bemused facial expression at the bizarre "justifications" for suffering. Perhaps we are all doomed BUT we all live in hope. MANY THANKS.
Hope, meaning, and purpose are feasible only in the notion of an evil god….or at least an indifferent one.
Happy New Year to you both!
I do think that the correct way to frame the issue as a problem of suffering and not a problem of evil. To solve the problem of suffering is much more difficult, as one could argue that evil has agency, whereas suffering can be random.
In the problem of suffering, I also think that people often forget that humans are one of many species that can suffer with pain and fear. For example, I have difficult understanding why a tri-Omni god would even create a world with carnivores. Does a rabbit that is caught and eaten by a coyote not horribly suffer at the moment of their death? If God is truly omnipotent and all good, why not just design all living creates to be herbivores?
Herbivores? Why should innocent plants 🌵 🌴🌲 suffer? I believe God could have created living and programmed them so they wouldn't have to eat at all.
Agreed. Also, Imagine if a god had made our “intelligent “ species asexual. Literally half of all suffering would have been eliminated.
And that without affecting free will. Seems simple to me. There are many such species.
Beautiful episode!
I would like to hear from Megan why she is still a believer
I studied Buddhism, and the explanation does make sense to me, but I don't know if it makes sense to others. (1) The concept is like an assumption that we owed someone debts or did evil acts that we did from previous lives and is now need to repaid to someone in this life.
For example, the previous life is like a person had committed murder year ago , but assuming we don't know about ; however, in this life that person is putting to death that we are witnessing now. Basically, that person is paying for the crime; however, if we don't this person committed a crime, we would question or complain why God doesn't intervene to prevent other put this person to death ? (2) when a person planted crops / raised livestocks this year can be considered as this lifetime , next life this person can harvest what for his hard works. Why some people are born in the wealthy family and while others are born in a poor family. Some people have opportunity to migrate to America while other died in war or died on the way getting there , where that person is not having the same opportunity as others, etc.
Basically, we have good lives now because of our going works from previous lives, while we have a bad or suffering may be because of bad things we had done to others previous lives, and now we have to pay our debts .
Great points! I deconverted a little over a year ago for this very reason. The moment it hit me was reading a comments section on RUclips, I think on a video about disability, and seeing stories from people who have to live with horrible chronic conditions. Without listing out those 3 statements, I quickly realized I had come to the same conclusion. If God exists and is loving, he could do something about suffering, especially suffering from disease or natural disaster that isn't caused by another person, but he doesn't. The idea of a God who could create us but not stop suffering or do a good enough job creating us that we wouldn't have terrible diseases seemed completely ridiculous. So that left with me with either no God or a non loving God. And if there's a non loving God, I want nothing to do with him. But I see no evidence for a God anymore anyway. I think it's up to us to help others and relieve suffering as much as we can, both for people today and future generations, since this planet and this life is all we have.
I used to be agnostic but now a Christian. Surely Bart knows the meaning of Jesus last words in Mark. So why not explain it rather than mislead about it? We need to be aware of semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
This comment is right on the money ! Very well said❤️
@@paulkiernan3256Sir/Ma’am, you have nothing. Nothing at all…zero…zilch. Mislead??? Educate yourself. Have you read his books?? Have you studied ancient near eastern literature??? Have you actually read the bible….the whole bible???? Get in reality. Respectfully
I think if God did exist, he might allow minor harm and suffering to occur, especially if he arranged for the overall benefits which occurred later to outweigh the original minor harm and suffering. However, this just doesn't work with levels of moderate, major, or horrible suffering. If he did exist, God would prevent those. But they occur. Therefore, God does not exist!
Maybe the error could be in concluding that this planet/world and this life are all we have (had).
love this podcast, I always learn something new and walk away with plenty of food for thought.
I agree with the content of this video. THUMBS UP, PLEASE.
Phabeni looks so small next to Lundi and Jabulani! Such a sweet baby face!❤❤❤
Hi! I am an atheist (I was raised that way), which is not that strange, cause I am from Sweden. I am also a determinist, that is I fail to see how free will could exist at all. Even so, I greatly appreciate all your RUclips talks about the New Testament, early christianity and so forth. Thanks for these well made videos, always excellent content! Now a question: how is it that people struggling with the theodicy problem seldom seem to end up with the logical solution that God is evil? Or that he is not almighty? Never having been a believer myself, perhaps I fail to understand something here... Regards Torgny Hedström, Swedish linguist
Do you believe that you were chosen to be an atheist?
The Christian tradition is shaped by the philisophical tradition of Perfect Being theism, which holds very strongly that God is both all-powerful and all-good. Even if these ideas aren't explicit in the Bible, early Christian theology was formed just as much by these philisophical considerations as it was by Scriptural ones.
The conclusions that God is evil or not almighty are not legitimate answers because BY DEFINITION God is perfectly moral AND all-powerful. So, given the horrible harms in our world, there is only one correct conclusion -- God does not exist. Now, you could hypothesize that another deity, who is not God, might exist, and this deity might be amoral, immoral, or weak. That might work. The confusion often lies in equating "God" with "god" and the two are just not the same thing.
God was Titus the Chrestus, author of All biblical scripture Titus was Jacob, Israel, Enoch before that, Titus was Dionysus God of wine fertility and the underworld,read Isaiah 63 and you'll see Titus's satire from his previous visits,70AD was history repeating itself,why all the Gospels contradict each other , different Jesus's, Jesus just means saviour in Greek, Titus called all rebellious leaders Jesus, satire.
@@whittfamily1Fool, Titus was the living God, Incarnated to destroy Lucifer along with 2 million Zionists, they wouldn't stop sacrificing to their God Yahweh, Solomon's temple built by Hiram Abiff, Satan,bible is Satire but true,Titus had a dark sense of humour,read Isaiah 63 and you'll see Titus's satire,lol
Bart, thanks for your deep and sincere thoughts. This came up at Bible study last year with people giving the typical evangelical answers. I gave exactly the same responses as Bart. We have no answer. But I'll recount an incident which I believe gives us the best non-answer we have.
When someone dear asked me how God could such create a world, I was about to give a snarky reply, but something prevented me. Whether divine influence or what I don't know, but I couldn't say what I wanted. I found myself saying, we don't know why but for now God wants us to trust him. This person seemed to accept it straightaway.
Took me a while to accept it myself - which shows that the answer did not come from me. I've had several such uncanny sometimes supernatural experiences throughout life which have consistently pointed me in the direction of trusting God, which is why I still believe.
That's a lovely answer. Not surprising it had a good effect. But isn't it really still a non-answer? I have a painful disease right now. Some people get so bad they die and even some appear to go insane with the pain, writing gibberish on social media. This is horrifying to me. So when I see this I find it difficult to trust. Like starving children. Should we tell them to trust? In Russia they have had to resort to cannibalism in cold winters. So I am contemplating suicide because I don't think that I can trust the future.
What would you say to me?
@@joecheffo5942 for me, it's not enough to convince me that God is all good, but every time i've stopped trusting, something would happen to bring me back. I've resigned myself that God wants me to trust him. it's a non-answer, but it's enough to keep going.
what would I say to you? as c s lewis wrote, each person has their own story. i don't have an answer and i'm unqualified to give you one. but i would not criticize you if you found life so unbearable it had to end.
Another great video as always. Back in the day when I was a christian, I always had trouble with this subject. Eventually, I just got to the conclusion that, if god is the ultimate sovereign of all existence and that if he can change any aspect of reality in a snap of a finger, then whatever he says is true, as he can change reality to fit whatever he is currently thinking. Therefore, if one day god decided he would torture and kill all children in the world and then send all those children to be tortured again in hell and then claim he was good and loving for doing such things, he would be good and loving by the simple fact that he was the ultimate judge of what is good and love... yeah, it was very scary to live in a world that I believed worked that way and I am really glad I no longer believe in such "loving" god(or any gods at all).
I used to be agnostic but now a Christian. Surely Bart knows the meaning of Jesus last words in Mark. So why not explain it rather than mislead about it? We need to be aware of semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
@@paulkiernan3256 Why don't you tell us the meaning of "my god, my god why have you forsaken me". Fill us in on semetisms and ancient narrative forms.
Matthew 25: 31-40 seems a perfect place to conclude - thank you!
Thank you professor for shearing your life and passion with us. I'm truly a better person after discovering your words.. in my opinion I guess. But you explain in a way so clearly that even someone like me with limited education can understand. Again thank you..
Can’t spell ( sharing)… ( fake c-menter) alert
I personally found the Daoist tale of "the old man who lost his horse (塞翁失馬 焉知非福)" more helpful than "God has a plan" despite being raised Christian. It's often translated as "a blessing in disguise," but actually more complex and deeper than that.
I like the Japanese version (禍福は糾える縄の如し, misfortune and fortune are like strands twisted together in twine), although I'm fond of that story of the old man who had a contrary outlook on life.
This is a interesting topic. I was raised Catholica but no longer believe.
As to the notion of free will I don't see how it can exist. I do things as a result of conscious and unconscious processing in my brain. So in that sense I'm much like algorithmic processing in a computer. Some apologists attempt to insert randomness to explain free will but if I'm subject to random influences how can that be the result of me choosing one option over another?
As far as the question of evil and suffering an all powerful god could have created the world anyway he wanted. Heck he and angels/devils don't even need a physical world to exist. As Bart mentioned the evolution of the concept of evil by Hebrew scholars is the result of trying to explain their situation. For me it is simple: the natural world is all there is and suffering is the result of the evolution of coconsciousness to be aware of one's self and as a protection mechanism from harm.
If an all powerful god had simply created us asexual the amount of suffering could have been literally cut in half.
And that without effecting free will…go figure.
The doctrine of free will is nothing more than a way to blame the sufferers for their own suffering and let "God" off the hook.
Curious now, Megan identifies as a Christian? I remember her saying that her son was questioning about the afterlife, and she told him there wasn't any. This was back around October or so I think. Maybe I have that wrong?
As far as I know she has always been a Christian.
My favorite duo!! Thanks for all the great information.
Great discussion as always - looking for logic in the bible is like looking for diamonds in a bowl of cheerios - most of the Christians I know won't discuss their beliefs bcause they know there are lots of holes- I think its ok because they want a place where they think the good is and they don’t care about the philosophy of it. Religion is brain soothing and that's best when you have closed loops where you don’t xamine your thoughts-my brain soothing, comes from questioning everything and finding answers- it’s way more fun
I disagree, there is plenty of logic in the bible.. Just as there is in star trek. The bible is an example of why logic is a must, it needs evidence to suggest its in anyway true... There's plenty of illogical nonsense too, Tbf.
While... Not why.
@@rahowherox1177 that’s the point- Star Trek is fiction and so is the Bible- ok yes there is logic but then that logic is contradicted somewhere else with other logic - god is loving, but he punishes with death, boils, disease- illogical
@@JimybluesYour understanding of love is not the same. It's pretty simple.
My son and I got into an argument at church because I asked what if a young girl was kidnapped and kept away from society then at some point she dies without knowing Jesus does she go to heaven or hell? We were told hell. We were pretty much ushered out of church that day. To me that says God is definitely not just.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz's solution to Suffering was that the world is in a pre-established spherical harmony, and thus is the best of all possible worlds. (Voltaire did a great refutation of that idea in his novel "Candide".) I always was under the impression that Mr. Leibniz was anticipating Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem two hundred years later, which means that you can't have a (logical) system which is at the same time complete and without contradiction (and includes Arithmetic). Leibniz tried to handcuff God with mathematical necessity, because even an omnipotent being can't overcome a mathematical proof. and thus our world of all thinkable worlds is still the world with the least amount of suffering.
(Some time travel stories like to elaborate on this idea because whatever the hero in their stories tries to affect the future, each time it turns worse.)
It’s been a long time since I read Russell’s History of Philosophy but if I remember correctly Russell thought that the stuff about this being the best of all possible worlds was essentially something Leibniz wrote to please the people who sponsored his work and not something Leibniz really believed.
@@michaeldebellis4202 That is said about several prominent philosophers. For example, Descartes, I've read that this philosophy is bad because he didn't care, he only wanted to be left alone so he could do math and science. I found that idea quite funny since people have dedicated a lot of serious thoughts to those systems.
My take is that what leibniz did is to put the mathematical necessity above God and what Godel found out is that any mathematical(logical) system is incomplete within that system, so both are almost opposite views, aren't they?
@@18890426 To the contrary: Even an idealized world like a logical model is necessarily full of conflicts (contradictions) and unsolved problems (incompleteness). How much more will the real world have them and cause endless suffering?
@@michaeldebellis4202 I am not sure Russell is right here. Because in Physics, especially if you tackle Physics with differential equations, as Leibniz invented them (and Isaac Newton before him, but he never published his ideas until he read of Leibniz's independent invention), you quickly come to a realization that in Physics, real phenomena often happen in the mathematically optimal way. For instance, Light always travels along the path that takes the shortest possible time for a given starting point A and target point B, even if it has to go through different media with different speeds of light, e.g. from air to water to glass, back to air if you for instance look through a glass bowl filled with water. So, Leibniz had a reason to believe that Nature (Greek: physike) is optimal in the mathematical sense, given the physical laws.
I quit going to church after I heard a sermon about how prayer helped someone get a dorm room they wanted. Because I prayed frantically that my son would live and yet he did not. A God that says yes and no so arbitrarily is too cruel for me.
It really makes me sick. I know what its like to loose a loved one. If I had the power to stop it from happening again I wouldn't let anyone experience that. But no God just sits and watches
Wow, I'm surprised that Magan is still a Christian after everything she's heard in this channel alone. I respect her even more now for her understanding and being open minded.
Because Christianity is supernatural not based on reason
I find it curious also she believes. But I guess anything is possible!
@@catholicconvert2119 people believe in the supernatural for a reason.
@daveredinger1947 Yes, anything is indeed possible. Indoctrination is also very powerful.
When I told my wife that I became an atheist, she was emotionally damaged. Even after changing her beliefs and showing her evidence against God and the Bible's inherency and infallibility, she came to agree with me that the Bible wasn't reliable. She even agreed that what is taught in the church very problematic. Despite all that, she simply can't accept the idea that God and the Biblical Jesus are man made ideas.
She still prays that God reveals himself to me one day. As mad as it makes me, I respect her beliefs and as long as it brings her comfort, I'm okay with it.
@@exaucemayunga22 no they don’t. I believe because I saw a miracle not because of reason
I think Bart's answer, I don't know, is the best option. I think that the very human questions, why this or that, can be "the devils questions" in that they are distractions from the path of Christianity.
When Lot's wife is "turned into a pillar of salt" its not that she sees what those naughty people are doing but that she turns away from the path.
It seems the most likely answers to me are A) There is no God, or B) If there are Gods, it is a polytheistic pantheon or C) There are Gods, but they don't care if people suffer, and probably don't care about people at all.
The correct answer is closest to B. There ultimately is only one God, but He is absolutely transcendent and somewhat remote. Many lesser powers are evil
@@catholicconvert2119 That doesn't make any sense. In that case, he could completely stop evil. He chooses to Allow it to happen, so it would be more like C.
@@dancahill9585 He can’t really stop evil like that
@@catholicconvert2119 So, he isn't omnipotent?
@@catholicconvert2119Correct? 😅 Prove it and collect your Nobel Prize!
awesome podcast, thank you dott Bart,👍
I never clicked so fast on a video
Bart is just such a lovable person. Wish I could be his friend.
The world sucks, but people keep on having children
I'm an antinatalist, I think the worst thing anyone can do is procreate
I think it ultimately stems from what Bart said around the 38:35 mark. "I don't think that good in the end is going to triumph." As a Christian, I can't find hope in that, and neither can a lot of other people.
But God doesn't always win as we want, because of how life is. Furthermore, where's the God in sending people to eternal burning/eternal death for simply not praying? As a Christian, I don't even think God cares about this plane cause He's seemingly more absent on Earth than an absent parent & Revelations is an apocalyptic myth, so it's non-canon in my eyes.
Love from India bart , born a Hindu but now an atheist but still love to read the Bible and the buddhist pali canon a lot. I think people are bashing christianity a lot for its errors in logic in the Bible but as a Hindu that implies a great diversity of thought that characterises the western psyche. Just because the scribes of Islam and Judaism had maintained some strict rules regarding discrepancies they r even more I would say harmful in their sense of God than say the Christian God is. I hope people do videos on the origins of Rama and Krishna of Indian scriptures as well ,many people believe they actually existed in the way it was described just as any Christian does but somehow that isn't a thing these days. I couldn't explain that yes buddha and mahaveera did exist but they r verified using sources of history not some belief and they were very much human in every way ,in the pali canon buddha talks about his back pains ,his initial dysentries ,his losing control due to extreme ascetism etc where we see a more humane picture of the person ,but I think the figures of Ram ,Krishna ,Moses didn't exist at all and if they did in many way are a combination of different tribes gods or ideals. Muhammad existed but does it change anything coz he bases his revelation on existence of Moses and the old testament idea of God, and virgin conception of christ( literally) etc but there clearly a lot of hidden truth about the rise of Islam and it's historical origins coz there were many Jews ,Christian monstaivs already living in Arabia ,also maybe the ebionites who had a very different view on Christ etc although I do think sufi movement in Islam is tied to Christian monastic mysticism passed on and adopted in Arabia and then in Islam. Maybe ,don't take me wrong u sound more Christian than any of those fundamentalist dudes 😂
I am a former Christian and also greatly enjoy the early Buddhist texts, like the Dhammapada.
If it's not matching up with reality, then it's not true. Trying to reconcile untruths with truths is certainly a "problem" and difficult.
Life sucks and then you dy.
Your hair?
This is a great Question but I assure you , the Religious community , can never answer this question properly. Thank goodness for intelligent people.
BEcause God is EVIL!
The possibility of a malevolent deity is a seriously underexplored philosophical concept.
@@mathewfinch Geesh, I WONDER WHY.
We are not going to find a solution to excuse God for the existence of suffering while we make it ourselves. The posture of not accepting responsibility for our own contribution means we lack empathy and our judgement of everyone is darkened by this blindness.
If god can do ANYTHING, he could make humans incapable of doing anything that leads to suffering. But he didn’t, he chose this universe. God = evil!
Regardless of whether you believe in God or not, it's a terrible mistake to put suffering at the feet of the creator (whether that be a god, the universe itself or otherwise) and not at your own. When I deeply think about it, I cannot come up with a single instance of suffering that humans couldn't resolve if we all put in as much effort as we possibly could towards that goal.
For example we should all remember and be eternally grateful for the relatively recent, damn near eradication of polio. A disease which previous to that paralyzed thousands per year. What's stopping you from doing that? Sure maybe you don't know how to cure diseases but you can sure as Hell start small and work your way up from there.
I can understand why people aren't exactly desperate to see it that way, seeing as it puts all the responsibility for suffering onto us, but I fear the alternative is far, far worse. Blaming God for the responsibility you don't want to take and moving on so you don't have to feel that the weight of suffering is on you. Theres a reason why Johann Goethe's Faust is tempted into a life of satanic depravity with the very same arguments made here. If you're no longer responsible for the suffering of the world, why bother? Why make things better if suffering is the mere unavoidable mechanism of a cold and calculated universe? Why not instead just live every second with pure hedonism and a complete lack of regard for the trouble that results.
I implore you, regardless of your faith, to take suffering on your own damn shoulders and not take out your bitterness for the woes of the world on God. Because if you can take it upon yourself and act accordingly, you have no idea how much suffering you could alleviate and how much good you could create in the world.
If I do not believe that a deity exists, I cannot then blame a deity for suffering.
@@NimWithRandomNumbersYou believe in existence and you can blame that. And that's not really any different
Um, remember those tectonic plates moving around causing earthquakes, tidal waves, tsunamis thus causing suffering and drowning innocent children and babies that did not ask to be born with original sin! How do humans fix those moving plates?😁LOL
Bingo.
@@NimWithRandomNumbersSo then blame the fallen world.
I read CS Lewis' The Problem of Pain years ago.
It has never sit well with me.
People who believe in a God alway try to justify their misfortune by claiming is becouse they don’t pray enough, they do not attend church mass , etc….The real and cruel reason is that there isn’t a God to take care of ourself. People suffer becouse that is the law of life, becouse we live in a material World where there is enjoyment but also suffering. Have the courage to be yourself and by yourself . Do not expect nothing from a God , otherwise you are going to be disappointed. You create your present and future, not a God. You obtain success by your own effort not by a god effort. Love and accept reality.
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omg that cruise sounds so good! where is the info? just backing my bikini.....
Speechless. Cain to Revelation
good will prevail, awesome 👍👍👍👍
I have no use for a God that inflicts suffering because we failed to worship Him properly. I have even less use for people who peddle that for their own profit and self aggrandizement.
Book of Job: back as an undergraduate, I wrote a research paper about Bargaining with the Devil in Literature: A Game Theoretic Analysis. One of the sections was on the Book of Job. One of the conclusions I reached was that had Job not questioned why God was afflicting him was that the next game to be played between God and Satan would have involved Job’s wife.
As a former believer taught as God is Love, I still wonder why I didn’t realized how can a LOVE allow sufferings and pains to continue😅, even how can a LOVE say I want you followers of me go through persecution😢