Carnatic Music: Svara, Gamaka, Motif and Raga Identity: T. M. Krishna
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Talk by Sri T. M. Krishna on "Carnatic Music: Svara, Gamaka, Motif and Raga Identity" at the 2nd CompMusic workshop, in Istanbul (Jul 12-13, 2012).
Thank you TM Krishna. Good explanation. Very good lecture. I am learning music myself. I was not able to get an idea of gamakas, the variation, not the swaras,itself. There are lots of videos teaching to sing but never explained how you make those variations on the gamakas. I think we need more basic core lessons. Foundation is most important . You are awesome. This is your first video I am watching. I am going to check out the tonic video that you mentioned in this video.
amazing. ...western classical is complex in terms of harmony. ...Indian classical is complex in terms of melody. ...so Indian music generally sounds sweeter and melodic than western music
Western classical harmony in orchestra is as unbeatable and matchless as Carnatic melody by a single individual.
@@balumuthu true but Western harmony in orchestra is a blend of many musical traditions and cultures which is what makes it unbeatable in the history of music.
from minute 9:10 to 9:20, there´s words that I can´t understand, and the subtitles don help. Anybody please help!!!
From ~9:00 to ~9:25, he says --
"No swara [i.e., note as it sung] in today's context in Carnatic music is a single position. It is a range. It's a range around which multiple movements and multiple interpretations exist. And [it is] that range, collectively, that gives you variability to that swara also. So in any raga, the identity of the swara is very well married to this movement that is happening with the swara."
What he is basically getting at is that ragas on a strictly grammatical level appear to be nothing more than scales... but in Carnatic music, we don't really define notes as just "a pitch"... the "sruthi", as we call it, denotes the _fundamental_ pitch to the note, but the actual *note* (or swara) the way we sing it, has some movement and variation of pitch making the fundamental pitch implicit rather than explicit. And the specific characters of those notes within the scale that forms the raga is really what defines it, not just the pure scale aspect of it.
For instance, you have raga Mahanandi and Sivaranjani... Both of these have identical _scales_. But the standard set of movements of the swaras in the respective ragas is not the same, and that is what makes them distinct.
Really nice & informative lecture-demo, keep it coming !! Thank you for recording & sharing this to a wider audience. I was wondering where it was recorded & it looks like it was in Bahçeşehir University in Turkey. He was referring to the other lecture demos that he has done in the same workshop. If those recordings are also made available, it will be helpful, Thanks !!
Thank you Sir for your effort to teach the theory behind the magic
This has helped me so much, thank you for such a wonderful lecture!
can any one enplane .... how can we draw the graph of kalyani like at the time of 12.16...thank you ... may God almighty bless u all ...
The nomenclature of the raga notwithstanding much of this also has a historical context and interpretation. I don't see much treatment on the ratios of 12 root of 2 contributing to the mood perception. Another aspect is the 'motif' or jeeva swara as musicians call it.
I wish the lecture started with a bit more of hook to keep the context of the discussion.
All being said, these kinds of discussions are very vital in furthering the understanding of Carnatic music. Keep up the good work guys...
Beautiful! Can someone please post a link of the "tonic" presentation?
Nice presentation. Analytical and in-depth. Not recommended for beginners. A person should have learnt or listened to many ragas or song before listening to this.
Artists teach co-artists. What should students who want develop manodharma do?
Wowww wonderful explanations sir, please keep posting.. Thank you very much
He is a very eloquent speaker. Loved this talk!
Inspiring no nonsense explanation from a seasoned practitioner. Very clear and well explained. Mr Spencer, the motifs are the gammakas I believe.
His deep knowledge is truly admirable..
very good to understand swara stanams &their interpretations
Thank you so much for recording and sharing this
So much informative and captivating......
Very useful video. Thank You, Sir. Thanks a lot once again.
The presentation is great but the definition or the description of Swara is inaccurate. When talking about the traditional Karnataki a traditional description of the shastras must always be presented. Swara is a combination of shrutis at any pitch position.
Hi sir, in carnatic,while composing multiple songs in a same raga, how can we use the same phrases(to make it having the nature of that raga) in all compositions?. If it's used like that, won't all compositions sound like similar? Please answer.. :)
I am surprised that, Mr.T.M.Krishna, with his clarity in definitions of Ragas, Gamakas, Context and Swara transitions, has not made Software for Computer Generated Carnatic Music ! :-) ...or has he ?
This is actually one of those subjects I've also talked about as well. It's a really challenging problem because the technology that is currently present is made with Western music sensibilities in mind. But because Carnatic music tends to work with implicit pitch rather than explicit, it's not super important insofar as intonation is concerned. The real problem is representing the very concept of a raga in terms that can be executed as software. If I simply lay down a phrase like "S G M gr M; P D P G", assuming I gave you whatever raga, the arohanam-avarohanam can tell about intonation all right, but then there is the movement of the pitches, between pitches, and so on. Technology like MIDI, MPE, and so on can already adequately represent this, but the problem is that you have to do so explicitly... and no Carnatic musician does this. We don't lay out gamakas one-by-one. We simply have internalized through experience what a given raga's bhaavam is like and we go from there.
With some more contemporary ragas, I think the "rules" are upheld a little more firmly, but with older ragas like Todi, etc., there's a lot more uncertainty. The example he gave (around 31:00) of so many different ways of singing the sadharana gandharam while still staying in Todi just illustrates the nature of the problem. While we can easily codify all those different gamakas, can you codify the principles that underline when and where it makes sense to actually use them? Presumably, machine learning has some potentiality to give us some useful output here, but it's never going to be as simple as just massaging some neural nets and getting out Carnatic music.
After started learning Carnatic flute for last ten months, I was looking for some theory. This is good for the beginner at least.
I feel : Ri2 can not be equated with Ga1. If that is made so, the entire array of ragas become utterly confusing!
practically we can have notes only corresponding to the reeds of a typical harmonium. R1R2 G1G2 M1 M2 D1D2N1N2. This simplifes. Anything in between can become a subset of Gamkam as with violin - .
There's a problem with notating swaras with a number. Earlier, the musicians notated Sadharana Gandhara(which occurs in Kharaharapriya, Todi, Keeravani, Bhairavi, Reethigowla etc and which shares the swarasthana with the Shatshruti Rishabha(R3) which occurs in Nattai, Rasikapriya etc) was denoted as G1 and the Antara Gandhara(which occurs in Shankarabharanam, Kalyani, Mayamalavagowla etc) was notated as G2, leaving no symbol for the Suddha Gandhara(which occurs in Varali, Kanakangi, Pavani, Chandrajyothi etc and which has the same svarasthānā as Chathushruti Rishabha(R2)). In recent days, people have been calling Suddha Gandhara as G1, Sadharana Gandhara as G2 and Antara Gandhara as G3. This is applicable similarly for the three Nishadas.
Brilliant.. Goosebumps..
sir I am psubashree abogi ragala arohanam and avarohanam epdi padurathu
Thanks for a great video.
Could someone please tell me where he talks about motifs in this lecture?
really great thanks a lot
wonderful explanation of gamakas.
Who are the audience?
Very correct, mama!!
great lecture!
wow...
what is he trying to convey here? i think he is confused about swara positions. We cannot say that Ri2 and Ga1 are the same.
subramania iyer
They are!
lol
I do agree. Ri2 can not be equated with Ga1. If that is made so, the entire array of ragas become utterly confusing!
practically we can have notes only corresponding to the reeds of a typical harmonium. R1R2 G1G2 M1 M2 D1D2N1N2. This simplifes. Anything in between can become a subset of Gamkam as with violin - .
There's a problem with notating swaras with a number. Earlier, the musicians notated Sadharana Gandhara(which occurs in Kharaharapriya, Todi, Keeravani, Bhairavi, Reethigowla etc and which shares the swarasthana with the Shatshruti Rishabha(R3) which occurs in Nattai, Rasikapriya etc) was denoted as G1 and the Antara Gandhara(which occurs in Shankarabharanam, Kalyani, Mayamalavagowla etc) was notated as G2, leaving no symbol for the Suddha Gandhara(which occurs in Varali, Kanakangi, Pavani, Chandrajyothi etc and which has the same svarasthānā as Chathushruti Rishabha(R2)). In recent days, people have been calling Suddha Gandhara as G1, Sadharana Gandhara as G2 and Antara Gandhara as G3. This is applicable similarly for the three Nishadas.
Yes you are correct... Y this confusion... He must study KARUNAMRUTHA SAAGARAM. by Abraham Pandithar.
Jump into the water and learn swimming. Reading books and listening to lectures wont help.
Oh my god… he says swarasthanas don’t have place in carnatic music. Or carnatic music don’t need swarasthanas.
And he kicks out Sadarana Gandhara from Carnatic music saying that it has no place for it. From whither?
Well well well….
I have trouble with some of what is being said here. If a singer is uttering a certain swaram such as "ma" and actually singing "ga", this is a problem with the singing that must be corrected; singer cannot get away with calling it a certain form of gamaka. But I fully agree that a swaram is a range and not a single sound frequency. But the range must be around the swaram that is being pronounced.