@@NathanBuildsRobots- they have a track record of speed… but not accuracy. And their QQS pro was neither. I would be interested to know if they have compensation for the inevitable miss alignment of the frame. Small miss alignment results in large inaccuracy in prints. I also want to know how warm the deltas get inside. They are tall so the heat will escape to where you don’t want it to be.
Hey Nate, what ever happened to these printers? It's been 3 months since they were made available for purchase, I haven't seen a single review from anyone. What's the hold up on these?
At this rate, in another few months, 3D printer manufacturers are going to need to start considering relativistic effects in the motion planning firmware.
You couldn't use normal PLA in this printer could you. Wouldn't it be better to use fast PLA which can handle faster speeds and has shorter cooling times. I am thinking of trying some out on my v400. I wonder with normal PLA whether the structure of a printed object is going to be stable when printed at such high speeds ?
I wouldn't get too excited about a couple of renders considering the asking price of $1500, the absence of a real video, and the 3-4 month delivery time. A bit of healthy skepticism is warranted in this case.
This checks a lot of tempting boxes. Enclosed, 300c nozzle, and a respectable 260x260x300(?) build area. This has serious potential for functional printing even before you factor in the impressive print speeds.
Also both have internal spool storage, the s1 even with separate heater for the filament. That makes both interesting for hygroscopic filaments, especially since you dont have to reacg to the back of the printer lik with the qidis
Interesting printer, but as an owner of a delta printer, Ø260x330 is not equal 260x260x300 , the build plate is circle and this is quite limiting. On rectangular build plate you could place long things diagonally , for example in theory you could print a 362mm line diagonally on a 256x256 buildplate. Another thing is have they figured out bed leveling because this is another tricky thing. Its done mathematically , I think originally printer sees build plate as sphere and then flattens it out , how flat it would be depends on how accurate the bed leveling sensor is, I tried really hard to level mine properly yet still it has some "hills" and "ditches". The further away the nozzle is from the center of the build plate the more bumpier it gets , so on mine the outer ring is not really usable as on some points it scrapes the surface and on another the nozzle is too high. I have Ø180x280 volume but i usually print within 140mm radius Delta is the best printer to look at while its printing tho, there is no question about it.
Yeah..I don't see myself jumping ship anytime soon. The two printers I bought this year are going to do the job for me. Speed is actually one of the least important factors for me since I print slow and for quality most of the time.
I print a lot of TPU so speed isn't a big factor for me either. On the occasions when I print PLA on my new faster Klipper machine, the speed up on the second layer is sorta scary.
@@Liberty4Ever right !! Speed is something you can throw in a spec sheet but to me it’s not nearly as important as precision and quality. I make threaded caps for vape pens and the threads are so fine that it just makes a mess if it am not on top of it
Same. that is the issue with the V400. The speed is there, but the quality isn't. The printer is just not accurate in all dimensions at speed. @@stevekay6895
This isn't a competition for Bambu Labs. Most people have Bambu printers for multi-color and multi-material prints. If your part of Bambu groups on FB everyone has a AMS and full color prints. This printer is just faster than the Bambu printers and the community just doesn't care about speed. I just finished a 4 color print that was printing for 4 days. Never had to worry about it prints perfect every time that is way more valuable than speed. Unless this new printer does multi-color printing and rock solid programming to match Bambu Labs ability to produce perfect results almost every time without worry or tinkering I doubt Bambu fan boys will care about this. Only reality fan boys will care about this product since they refuse bambu
I knew you would make a video for that, I was just waiting for it xD Not sure if their printers "will destroy the competition" because 1300$ or 500$ is not soo cheap. I can get a pretty fast (and with bigger build volume) Elegoo Neptune 4 for 230$ There is also a big difference between an AD and the real product, in case of those Chinese OEM´s the difference is pretty severe. I wouldn´t pre-order a video game or anything from China. Unless I really want to be the beta tester.
1 - Rendering of an 8 minute benchy, are not in fact proff of anthing other than skills in 3D art. 2 - Most coreXY motion systems are capable of doing benchy under 7 minute. The biggest issue is cooling. (As "being brave enough" to expose PLA to 270°C can be done by anyone). Most manufacturers are unwilling to put 24V server park grade cooling fans on their rig. Due to noise concerns. And for a Delta printer the issue is even worse. As delta printer toolhead is not fixed vertically - unlike coreXY systems. As such you cannot "cheat" by placing huge-ass fans on the side of the printframe, and only putting a small wind deflector on the toolhead to keep it light. With delta printer you would need to move the fan with toolhead. Or you could switch to a compressor utilizing high pressure air vortex colling system - but that costs more than consumer 3D printers. 3 - And even from a theoretical standpoint, delta printers are worse for 2+1D FDM printing - where layers are stacked on top of eachother vertically, and are flat planes. With Such printing toolpaths you only need to change positions fast in the XY direction. Thus coupling the mass and resonancex of the Z axis to the XY motion system is pointless. 4 - 1000mm/s is not really impressive. IT IS AN IRRELEVANT SPEC - aka. scamming the customer, by misleading him Linear speeds are not determined by maximum linear speed, but by max hotend flow. Anyone who has not been fucking sleeping during highschool physics class will know that keeping speed doesn need energy (thus machine performance), accelerating to it does. Thus if you give a long enough straight line in your print even sketchy ass janky old reprap designs can move their toolheads that fast. What limits the maximum speed one can reach in a straight line is how fast the nozzle can melt plastic (aka. max volumetric flow rate in mm^3/s) That depends on 3 things: - Filament material (some melt better, due to heat equalizing faster inside filament line) some melt slower - Temperature. If you overheat the outside the filament the inside will melt faster. Ofc. that comes with oozing - but if you print fast enoguh there wont be time for that - Nozzle heat transfer capability. The more surface are tha better. Thus longer is better. And CHT nozzles should be mandatory when speed is the goal. ... In essence unless it ships with CHT nozzle, putting this specs on the advertisement is a scam on level with EV manufacturers advertising the 300km range "within city limits" of their electric motorcycles, and omitting the fact that they are only capable of going 60km on highways. 5 - And ofc. the bane of all delta printers is still out in force. They have a terrible print volume to machine volume ratio. If that matters for the user - as it does for plenty hobbists/consumers/prosumer - then its non starter.
Will have to wait and see… bambu lab hotend is like 17-24mm^3/s. Seem weak by comparison. Even if they only deliver 1/2 the claimed speed, it’ll be much faster
I get maybe 60 mm3/s with a Mosquito Magnum + and a 2.4mm nozzle. Someone needs to do the napkin math on how large a layer would be in x/y at 0.2 layer height with a 0.4 nozzle at 110 mm3/s flow rate.
@@torquemada1971 There are hotends in development with higher flow than mosquito magnum. Slice seems to focus on decently high print volume with high reliability and good customer support, not absolute max print speed. Would be nice to see a dumbed down version of the Mosquito Prime at a lower price point at some point
I have the FL Sun v400 and that thing is impressive. If these new machines are anywhere near the quality of the v400 then they will definitely affect the Bamboo market. I have no problem getting a very good first layer down every time with my v400. If they have done their homework and used the right tech then hopefully these new machines will be as good on first layer or better. First proper review will definitely be interesting!!
I love my v400, but I've had a ton of small weird problems on it, especially with first layers. I eventually installed vanilla klipper and it got a lot better, but I'm curious to see some reviews on these ones.
I have a v400 and the only mechanical issue was a belt snapping and worn out nozzle(my fault and easy fix lel) and sadly a bowled out print bed so it’s hard printing wide objects :(
@@brokencreationlordmegatrol3037 Ah yeah, same here, the bed mesh looks like you could eat Cheerios out of it. It's really not that extreme, but with some materials it makes it near impossible to print on the full bed area. Even bed mesh compensation doesn't fix it completely.
Glad to see atleast a promising delta that hopefully delivers🤞. Delta definitely could surpass corexy, if done right. A delta is definitely quieter(non existent vibration) and has much less wear compared to a corexy machine. The main issue of the delta, is the difficulty in precise calibration of nozzle position(especially to avoid tilt) and linearity of movement, taking into account the exact rod lengths. One main side effect of the above, is prints getting knocked off or consistent layer shifting on tall objects, unless you use zhop(to pickup the slack in calibration), printing at a lowrr speeds. Also using klipper for input shaping for a delta is a weird art. Flsun used to cut corners in quality of material(such as using an inferior rail system on v400 vs the cheaper SR). Hopefully, that is not the case with S1 and T1. Definitely interested to learn about the motion system components and how they pulled off insane performance using a belt system? Closed loop does help, but there will be slowdown due to settling time of belt backlash and inertial overload of theceffector mass. Also unsure of the slicer choice by Flsun, Cura support is spotty, while the Prusa slicer does not want to support a delta configuration fully. Ideamaker seems good, but since there is no raise3d delta machines, it is still not fully optimized. Without a good slicer integration, it is difficult to win over competition. Hopefully things will clear up soon. Thanks for the coverage of the less liked delta's. One interesting thing a delta machine is capable of, is printing in any orientation. It will be interesting to see a gimbal mounted delta mini that could print without any supports?❤👍
I truly believe this will be an important game changer, FLSUN really stepping up their game. The only thing I feel kinda bad about is how much Klipper *probably* got completely ripped off by the new wave of faster 3D printers and rebranded as another OS
I'm a total noob to 3d printers and recently ran across the T1 and S1. Was going to get a K1 Max but with the speed increases and other bells and whistles, I"m really interested in the S1. I'm amazed there are no pre-release video reviews like with other companies before they release their products to the public. I think thats a lost opportunity for FLSUN but if the speed and print quality with this is good then yea, bamboo and other companies are going to be scrambling. Thanks for the video.
I dig the direction of your channel! these deep dives and on-site interviews are awesome. Swiss army knives are built on a tradition of watchmakers. The engineering is on par w/ the features. FLSun are not the swiss. If they pull this off it'll be an engineering marvel. Many youtube vids on the v400 delta printing fast, but w/ poor quality using their recommended workflow + slicer. Need to change slicers to fix. Maybe they've updated this. If they don't have the basics down, makes me less than optimistic
The Benchy was made in CGI and its strange, that we dont see any reviews out there already. Most of RUclipsrs are bought, Nathan here also, but if you know what to look for it isnt a big problem. Saying that Bambu is obsolete without seeing the real thing proved that
We'll see when the beta test units come out! It's certainly possible, we've seen machines like the VZBot and other community projects hit those speeds. But definitely needs some verification
@@NathanBuildsRobotsMy delta can go waaaaay over those speeds except for flow that's currently stuck at more normal levels like 30 mm³/s. It's totally believable to do the speeds flsun is claiming if they have the melt. The kinematics are easy and the cooling they've got covered.
I was going to buy V400 on this black Friday, then the announcements came... I'll take T1 today or tomorrow, unless their delivery times are ridiculously long, which is a possibility, since I didn't see it being mentioned anywhere, I tried asking them, but didn't get an answer. If it turns out to be what they promised, I'll take the S1 later on. One thing to note is that they are HUGE!! V400 was massive, T1 is only a little bit smaller, and S1 is even larger. Kind of sad I missed the boat on V400, I had a weird desire to buy it, just so I could build a custom enclosure around it, but the S1 is basically what I had in mind, only with a bunch of other functions. I guess I'm old school there, I find it hard to buy a printer without thinking about how I'll mod it, but on S1 and T1 I feel like there's nothing to mod...no fun...
I'm hoping that eventually there will be some standards in 3D printer hardware. Like the ATX standard for computers, changing RAM, graphics cards, and power supplies is super easy.
@@NathanBuildsRobots Yeah, that would be nice. Weirdly it might be possible to simply "slot in" T1 or S1 extruder on some other delta style printer, considering how the effectors are attached. As in, there are no screws, they are basically "pinched in". If it ever does get to be that easy to change components, I hope we'll get stores that build custom 3D printers same as they do for desktop computers. There is a bit of that with stuff like RatRig, but I see no reason why it shouldn't expand to other types of 3D printers as well.
@@astrumrocket6556That's true, as long as the spacing between the ball joints is the same. The difference between a parallelogram and a trapezoid is not to be toyed around with!
I have owned a very well built delta (D300VS) for 7 years, and recently got a Bambu P1S. When it worked it was great, made almost no noise and the print quality was amazing. Problem is deltas experience weird issues, and in the case of my printer, often launched itself off the magnetic arms when crashing into slight print defects or during high speed. Trying to fix dimensions and artifacts is really difficult. Deltas are also MASSIVE relative to their build volume, I don't think I would ever go back to one when cheap high performance corexy printers are available. I don't trust my delta to not have a catastrophic failure if left alone.
Anybody else notice the heavy smoothing applied to the benchies? I think they need to get away from speed and focus on the other features. You probably wont be able to print anything useful at those speeds and filament that will work at those speeds will be an issue. Much like the bambu printers the filament will determine your print speed not the machine at this point.
They just told me how it worked. Post purchase they are going to count the first 3 purchases and discount then after the fact. Here’s a copy and paste of there message. Hello, my friend. We will count the top three orders and then refund half of the price for customers, this is absolutely real and effective activities, hope you can understand and trust! Best regards FLSUN Service Team
The Bambu Lab black friday deals looked sweet.. and i kinda wanted a 2nd X1.. But now im waiting what FLSUN brings to the table. i would not mind the extra build height of the FLSUN printers. Are you going to review one in the near future?@@NathanBuildsRobots
I'm missing something, on the paper they declare a diameter of 320 mm by 430 in height but on the Facebook page they insist on writing: printing area 320*320*430... it doesn't seem the same to me...
All this and it's a Delta printer. Nearly every person I know that bought a V400 and a good portion of product reviewers that have one say the same thing. They work well, for a bit, they break even better, and they stay broken. Hard pass. I'll stick with Bambu, Creality and Elegoo. They work, work well and best part. Stay working.
The Bambu printers are pretty good. I’ve been into printing for almost 10 years. Other than the Voron the Bambu X1c n p1p in my opinion are the best for the money. I have 3 x1 s and 3 p1p s i’ve printed thousands of hours with little to no failures.
ya the issue for me is that it still uses a belt. so you're going to be dealing with artifacts at those speeds no matter how much vibration compensation you have because the belts will stretch. for less than twice the price for the s1, you could get a peopoly magneto with linear motors. then you're never worried about belt stretch and these kind of speeds might not just have acceptable print quality but actually good print quality.
@markm49 I mean ya it was a pre sale. Didn't flsun do the same thing? Both are established companies and I expect both will deliver. I'd still rather a pre-sale linear motor than buy a belted printer. It really will make a huge difference in quality. If they fail, I'd get my money back and buy a troodon 2. All the benefits of a voron 2.4 without all the diy or printed parts.
Fast yes, but 1,400 for 330x430? It's almost the price of the orange storm giga! I have owned every single Flsun printer, V400 (300x400?) have the size for for 99% of the people, where as T1 is just a little bit small (260x330?).
This will be much more suitable for rapid prototyping workflow for professionals. Lets say you are developing a new electronics enclosure. Having a prototype in hand in what, under an hour? It's insane.
Entirely different target audience. The giga is for large prints or in a production scenario with its 4 synchronised head, the flsun ones are for fast prints as well as for difficult materials, especially since both have internal spool storage and 120c beds.
I absolutely love it but it's an absolute unit! We're talking about 21" x 22" x 40" and 85lbs! Holy cow, this is not a one person lift and shift. Absolutely no one will be putting these on their Ikea shelves, need to lose some weight before I can seriously consider it and for this reason I'm out :(
Geometrically speaking 83mm square fits inside of 260 diameter circle 226mm square fits inside of 320 diameter circle On both you have 56% additional area in the 4 truncated hemispheres around the perimeter. Square beds tend to have more usable space, but the corners of a square bed tend to have worse temperature uniformity compared to a circle, which has no corners so should be more uniform throughout. Will be worth doing a breakdown of all this stuff in a real review.
The Bambu effect: Every other manufacturer who has been fleecing the public with mediocre drek for years wakes up and realises they have to do some work.
Considering the flow rate it’s probably going to be actually able to print at those speeds unlike creality and Bambu which can move at those speeds but even a 0,2 layer height will hit the limits of the hotend before it hits the limits of the motion system
Yeah right, because FLSun are such printing manufacture geniuses.. Come on.. They don't exactly have a great track record of reliable printers before the v400 came out..
Whats the price with a multicolor printing option? The Bambulabs selling point is he AMS and 500mm/s. don´t get me wrong this is a very interesting printer even the 1300€ /1500€ price is okay i think but its for different customers than the bambulabs also i have seen Voron´s print benchys in under 3 minutes soo....
Let's see how it actually runs before making such statements :) FLSUN has not actually shown any evidence of the speed or prints yet. (I say that as an FLSUN QQS-Pro and FLSUN V400 owner)
Info on Delta's in general is pretty limited. Comparison of delta's to corexy is even more scarce. On paper these look awesome for the price, especially the T1. You got love the strategy FLSUN is doing here. limited actual demo, zero interaction with the community, presale with no specifics on when, in what looks like an attempt to to hold people off buying competitor products over the Christmas holiday.
How's the part availability and price for parts that wear out with use? Is it much worse than with an Ender 3? Now that I'm buying a bunch of upgrades for my printer I'm realizing that it quickly adds up in cost enough to consider printers in the ~500$ range, but at least it's easy to get cheap replacement parts for an ender.
These deltas are a whole new world to me. I'm not really interested in speed as much as quality and reliability (and ease of use), to be honest. What are they like for that? Does anyone know?
Cheers, OldsJunkie. I don't like that sound of that! Mainly because I have a slight tendency to kill kit (I was a physicist a lifetime ago and the legacy lives on, apparently . . . :0). Good to hear the print quality is high, though. I'll have a think @@oldsjunkie1
wow these look amazing. on the website for me it says shipping from oversea warehouses. Any idea on how much shipping cost and if there will be additional customs duty? thanks a lot for your great videos!
3D Printing got past the speed needs, the future best sellers are the ones who implement the best multi color printing with least amount of waste and fastest color change cycle. FLSun selling point is only speed and I dont think anything over 600mm is even reasonable (my new KE shakes violently at 300mm lol, I would not need anything faster)
Wait for reviews. I love my SRs but I've had many flsuns and every single one has had issues with bed levelling being out on some parts of the bed. Even with me checking every single thing, converting the SRs to klipper to add more mesh points etc, still isn't the best. FLSUN haven't been helpful with support for this, so you end up relying on the community. That's my main issue. Let's see what happens. Also they need an AMS for it to be worth it to many people so the choice is not clear at all.
It doesn't matter as they are illegal. They offer 1 year on warranty in EU instead of 2 per EU law! I have already warn them about this and that I will report them.
Honestly? FLSun is one of the few 3d printer companies I actually trust. I've owned a Super Racer when it was still new and managed to push that monstrosity up to 300mm/s^2 at 12,000mm/s^3 acceleration speeds and was getting *decent* quality prints. Their machines are incredibly solid, even if they aren't welded frames like the BambuLab ones. They use actually high quality parts, and their claims have 100% landed on mark or surpassed themselves on every printed from them I've used/owned/tested. If these two new machines are as good as they claim (always that chance, I'm not biased), then it will be a serious contender for king of speed possibly surpassing BambuLab. (You know, if people can get past the Delta style print structure as opposed to CoreXY)
FLSUN like Creality over promises and under delivers and 9 out of 10 times you pay full price and then continue to spend money for "mandatory upgrades" to make your machine work as intended.
They raised the price on T1 by $100 to $599. That now puts me in the "no" for the VLSUN. The 3rd round of pre sales is going to push the ship date out about 3 months from this review, that's a long time in the 3d printer world, especially after all of the development that took place in late 2023. I'll probably look for something on the lower end with automatic bed leveling and a direct drive, then revaluate at the end of 2024 (I'm on voxelab aquilia...........so it item)
@@LauLex .....the X1C is literally unproven chinese marketing bullcrap too lmao. They sold gullible people on their lidar which was proven to be a pointless marketing gimmick. Even their ludicrous mode is a marketing gimmick. Bambu lab has taken more L's in one year than creality in the last decade.
Where is their Multi Filament unit? (AMS or MMU or what ever you want to call it). They will never destroy competition with out. doing something better than what is out their.
Год назад+1
39 minutes after release am here without notification
I love the specs but wait... no wifi? In 2023? Seriously, with how loud these fast machines are now, you need to put them somewhere far from people. No LAN print and camera monitoring is... well, that's a deal breaker for me :-(
I don't care how good they say a new printer is until i see reviews for it I'm not spending shit on it. WAIT FOR THE REVIEWS!!!
True. FLSUN has a pretty good track record, but the safer choice right now is to wait
@@NathanBuildsRobots- they have a track record of speed… but not accuracy. And their QQS pro was neither.
I would be interested to know if they have compensation for the inevitable miss alignment of the frame. Small miss alignment results in large inaccuracy in prints.
I also want to know how warm the deltas get inside. They are tall so the heat will escape to where you don’t want it to be.
Flsun have good quality printers
I think the Printer is very loud.😮
Me neither.
Hey Nate, what ever happened to these printers? It's been 3 months since they were made available for purchase, I haven't seen a single review from anyone. What's the hold up on these?
At this rate, in another few months, 3D printer manufacturers are going to need to start considering relativistic effects in the motion planning firmware.
You couldn't use normal PLA in this printer could you. Wouldn't it be better to use fast PLA which can handle faster speeds and has shorter cooling times. I am thinking of trying some out on my v400. I wonder with normal PLA whether the structure of a printed object is going to be stable when printed at such high speeds ?
I wouldn't get too excited about a couple of renders considering the asking price of $1500, the absence of a real video, and the 3-4 month delivery time. A bit of healthy skepticism is warranted in this case.
This checks a lot of tempting boxes. Enclosed, 300c nozzle, and a respectable 260x260x300(?) build area. This has serious potential for functional printing even before you factor in the impressive print speeds.
If I were doing engineering R&D work I'd want one of these to belt out prototypes over a lunch break
Also both have internal spool storage, the s1 even with separate heater for the filament. That makes both interesting for hygroscopic filaments, especially since you dont have to reacg to the back of the printer lik with the qidis
the CPAP cooling system sold me
260 seems to be diameter, so 183x183 for square shaped objects if I calculated that correctly
Interesting printer, but as an owner of a delta printer, Ø260x330 is not equal 260x260x300 , the build plate is circle and this is quite limiting. On rectangular build plate you could place long things diagonally , for example in theory you could print a 362mm line diagonally on a 256x256 buildplate.
Another thing is have they figured out bed leveling because this is another tricky thing. Its done mathematically , I think originally printer sees build plate as sphere and then flattens it out , how flat it would be depends on how accurate the bed leveling sensor is, I tried really hard to level mine properly yet still it has some "hills" and "ditches". The further away the nozzle is from the center of the build plate the more bumpier it gets , so on mine the outer ring is not really usable as on some points it scrapes the surface and on another the nozzle is too high. I have Ø180x280 volume but i usually print within 140mm radius
Delta is the best printer to look at while its printing tho, there is no question about it.
This one also saves the environment made me laugh really out loud xD
Yeah..I don't see myself jumping ship anytime soon. The two printers I bought this year are going to do the job for me. Speed is actually one of the least important factors for me since I print slow and for quality most of the time.
I print a lot of TPU so speed isn't a big factor for me either. On the occasions when I print PLA on my new faster Klipper machine, the speed up on the second layer is sorta scary.
@@Liberty4Ever right !! Speed is something you can throw in a spec sheet but to me it’s not nearly as important as precision and quality. I make threaded caps for vape pens and the threads are so fine that it just makes a mess if it am not on top of it
@@stevekay6895but it has 350c nozzle and 120c bed temp
Same. that is the issue with the V400. The speed is there, but the quality isn't. The printer is just not accurate in all dimensions at speed.
@@stevekay6895
A half year later, the competition is still alive.😳
They're dead to me 💩
This isn't a competition for Bambu Labs. Most people have Bambu printers for multi-color and multi-material prints. If your part of Bambu groups on FB everyone has a AMS and full color prints. This printer is just faster than the Bambu printers and the community just doesn't care about speed. I just finished a 4 color print that was printing for 4 days. Never had to worry about it prints perfect every time that is way more valuable than speed. Unless this new printer does multi-color printing and rock solid programming to match Bambu Labs ability to produce perfect results almost every time without worry or tinkering I doubt Bambu fan boys will care about this. Only reality fan boys will care about this product since they refuse bambu
I guess someone already took all 3 of them TT. For me the price remained the same after refreshing several times.
Someone got all 3 😭
He commented here
its been 3 months and i havent seen an independent review, this is very sus
I don't need another printer. I don't need another printer. I don't need another printer.
SALE STARTS AT 9AM EST
"It has almost all the features you want!"
👍For the announcement tweet...
I knew you would make a video for that, I was just waiting for it xD
Not sure if their printers "will destroy the competition" because 1300$ or 500$ is not soo cheap. I can get a pretty fast (and with bigger build volume) Elegoo Neptune 4 for 230$
There is also a big difference between an AD and the real product, in case of those Chinese OEM´s the difference is pretty severe. I wouldn´t pre-order a video game or anything from China.
Unless I really want to be the beta tester.
@@sierraecho884 I'm on Alpha test crew :P its both a good and bad thing
1 - Rendering of an 8 minute benchy, are not in fact proff of anthing other than skills in 3D art.
2 - Most coreXY motion systems are capable of doing benchy under 7 minute. The biggest issue is cooling. (As "being brave enough" to expose PLA to 270°C can be done by anyone).
Most manufacturers are unwilling to put 24V server park grade cooling fans on their rig.
Due to noise concerns.
And for a Delta printer the issue is even worse.
As delta printer toolhead is not fixed vertically - unlike coreXY systems. As such you cannot "cheat" by placing huge-ass fans on the side of the printframe, and only putting a small wind deflector on the toolhead to keep it light. With delta printer you would need to move the fan with toolhead.
Or you could switch to a compressor utilizing high pressure air vortex colling system - but that costs more than consumer 3D printers.
3 - And even from a theoretical standpoint, delta printers are worse for 2+1D FDM printing - where layers are stacked on top of eachother vertically, and are flat planes.
With Such printing toolpaths you only need to change positions fast in the XY direction.
Thus coupling the mass and resonancex of the Z axis to the XY motion system is pointless.
4 - 1000mm/s is not really impressive.
IT IS AN IRRELEVANT SPEC - aka. scamming the customer, by misleading him
Linear speeds are not determined by maximum linear speed, but by max hotend flow.
Anyone who has not been fucking sleeping during highschool physics class will know that keeping speed doesn need energy (thus machine performance), accelerating to it does. Thus if you give a long enough straight line in your print even sketchy ass janky old reprap designs can move their toolheads that fast.
What limits the maximum speed one can reach in a straight line is how fast the nozzle can melt plastic (aka. max volumetric flow rate in mm^3/s)
That depends on 3 things:
- Filament material (some melt better, due to heat equalizing faster inside filament line) some melt slower
- Temperature. If you overheat the outside the filament the inside will melt faster. Ofc. that comes with oozing - but if you print fast enoguh there wont be time for that
- Nozzle heat transfer capability. The more surface are tha better. Thus longer is better. And CHT nozzles should be mandatory when speed is the goal.
...
In essence unless it ships with CHT nozzle, putting this specs on the advertisement is a scam on level with EV manufacturers advertising the 300km range "within city limits" of their electric motorcycles, and omitting the fact that they are only capable of going 60km on highways.
5 - And ofc. the bane of all delta printers is still out in force.
They have a terrible print volume to machine volume ratio.
If that matters for the user - as it does for plenty hobbists/consumers/prosumer - then its non starter.
@@NathanBuildsRobots It´s different for you, you are a content creator. I am an annoyed user =)
@@martonlerant5672 Just scale the benchy by 5% down, nobody will notice ... xD
After the 3 super racers started having problems after a very short time, I'm keeping my hands off the new stuff.
The advertised flow rates are very skeptical for 0.4 mm nozzles.
Will have to wait and see… bambu lab hotend is like 17-24mm^3/s. Seem weak by comparison. Even if they only deliver 1/2 the claimed speed, it’ll be much faster
I get maybe 60 mm3/s with a Mosquito Magnum + and a 2.4mm nozzle. Someone needs to do the napkin math on how large a layer would be in x/y at 0.2 layer height with a 0.4 nozzle at 110 mm3/s flow rate.
I'll do it. Assuming 110 mm3/s flow, 0.2 layer - you could print a 23.5mm x 23.5mm x 0.2mm layer in one second. Yeah, nah.
@@torquemada1971 There are hotends in development with higher flow than mosquito magnum. Slice seems to focus on decently high print volume with high reliability and good customer support, not absolute max print speed. Would be nice to see a dumbed down version of the Mosquito Prime at a lower price point at some point
It's a scam, it's FLSun. Be realistic here people.
I have the FL Sun v400 and that thing is impressive. If these new machines are anywhere near the quality of the v400 then they will definitely affect the Bamboo market. I have no problem getting a very good first layer down every time with my v400. If they have done their homework and used the right tech then hopefully these new machines will be as good on first layer or better. First proper review will definitely be interesting!!
I love my v400, but I've had a ton of small weird problems on it, especially with first layers. I eventually installed vanilla klipper and it got a lot better, but I'm curious to see some reviews on these ones.
I have a v400 and the only mechanical issue was a belt snapping and worn out nozzle(my fault and easy fix lel) and sadly a bowled out print bed so it’s hard printing wide objects :(
@@brokencreationlordmegatrol3037 Ah yeah, same here, the bed mesh looks like you could eat Cheerios out of it. It's really not that extreme, but with some materials it makes it near impossible to print on the full bed area. Even bed mesh compensation doesn't fix it completely.
Nathan builds robots, the definitive source for 3D printing news
Glad to see atleast a promising delta that hopefully delivers🤞.
Delta definitely could surpass corexy, if done right. A delta is definitely quieter(non existent vibration) and has much less wear compared to a corexy machine. The main issue of the delta, is the difficulty in precise calibration of nozzle position(especially to avoid tilt) and linearity of movement, taking into account the exact rod lengths.
One main side effect of the above, is prints getting knocked off or consistent layer shifting on tall objects, unless you use zhop(to pickup the slack in calibration), printing at a lowrr speeds. Also using klipper for input shaping for a delta is a weird art. Flsun used to cut corners in quality of material(such as using an inferior rail system on v400 vs the cheaper SR). Hopefully, that is not the case with S1 and T1. Definitely interested to learn about the motion system components and how they pulled off insane performance using a belt system? Closed loop does help, but there will be slowdown due to settling time of belt backlash and inertial overload of theceffector mass. Also unsure of the slicer choice by Flsun, Cura support is spotty, while the Prusa slicer does not want to support a delta configuration fully. Ideamaker seems good, but since there is no raise3d delta machines, it is still not fully optimized. Without a good slicer integration, it is difficult to win over competition. Hopefully things will clear up soon. Thanks for the coverage of the less liked delta's. One interesting thing a delta machine is capable of, is printing in any orientation. It will be interesting to see a gimbal mounted delta mini that could print without any supports?❤👍
it is impressive, but for me its not all about speed, how reliable is it gonna be ?
I truly believe this will be an important game changer, FLSUN really stepping up their game. The only thing I feel kinda bad about is how much Klipper *probably* got completely ripped off by the new wave of faster 3D printers and rebranded as another OS
FLSun has been clearly stating they're using clipper and the V400 was the first commercially available printer running Klipper out of the box.
I'm a total noob to 3d printers and recently ran across the T1 and S1. Was going to get a K1 Max but with the speed increases and other bells and whistles, I"m really interested in the S1. I'm amazed there are no pre-release video reviews like with other companies before they release their products to the public. I think thats a lost opportunity for FLSUN but if the speed and print quality with this is good then yea, bamboo and other companies are going to be scrambling. Thanks for the video.
I dig the direction of your channel! these deep dives and on-site interviews are awesome. Swiss army knives are built on a tradition of watchmakers. The engineering is on par w/ the features. FLSun are not the swiss. If they pull this off it'll be an engineering marvel. Many youtube vids on the v400 delta printing fast, but w/ poor quality using their recommended workflow + slicer. Need to change slicers to fix. Maybe they've updated this. If they don't have the basics down, makes me less than optimistic
Do the voltage settings define a specific country or is it intended to operate on 230V ?
YAY The DELTAS! Always my preferred kinematics
The Benchy was made in CGI and its strange, that we dont see any reviews out there already. Most of RUclipsrs are bought, Nathan here also, but if you know what to look for it isnt a big problem. Saying that Bambu is obsolete without seeing the real thing proved that
We'll see when the beta test units come out! It's certainly possible, we've seen machines like the VZBot and other community projects hit those speeds. But definitely needs some verification
@@NathanBuildsRobotsMy delta can go waaaaay over those speeds except for flow that's currently stuck at more normal levels like 30 mm³/s. It's totally believable to do the speeds flsun is claiming if they have the melt. The kinematics are easy and the cooling they've got covered.
I was going to buy V400 on this black Friday, then the announcements came... I'll take T1 today or tomorrow, unless their delivery times are ridiculously long, which is a possibility, since I didn't see it being mentioned anywhere, I tried asking them, but didn't get an answer. If it turns out to be what they promised, I'll take the S1 later on.
One thing to note is that they are HUGE!! V400 was massive, T1 is only a little bit smaller, and S1 is even larger.
Kind of sad I missed the boat on V400, I had a weird desire to buy it, just so I could build a custom enclosure around it, but the S1 is basically what I had in mind, only with a bunch of other functions. I guess I'm old school there, I find it hard to buy a printer without thinking about how I'll mod it, but on S1 and T1 I feel like there's nothing to mod...no fun...
I'm hoping that eventually there will be some standards in 3D printer hardware. Like the ATX standard for computers, changing RAM, graphics cards, and power supplies is super easy.
@@NathanBuildsRobots Yeah, that would be nice. Weirdly it might be possible to simply "slot in" T1 or S1 extruder on some other delta style printer, considering how the effectors are attached. As in, there are no screws, they are basically "pinched in".
If it ever does get to be that easy to change components, I hope we'll get stores that build custom 3D printers same as they do for desktop computers. There is a bit of that with stuff like RatRig, but I see no reason why it shouldn't expand to other types of 3D printers as well.
February before they ship. You will be able to pick up V400 for a bargain price, I got one for about $260 USD.
@@astrumrocket6556That's true, as long as the spacing between the ball joints is the same. The difference between a parallelogram and a trapezoid is not to be toyed around with!
@@petercallison5765 Might I ask where? Or do you mean a used one? All my printers work a lot, so I'm always looking for new ones.
I have owned a very well built delta (D300VS) for 7 years, and recently got a Bambu P1S. When it worked it was great, made almost no noise and the print quality was amazing. Problem is deltas experience weird issues, and in the case of my printer, often launched itself off the magnetic arms when crashing into slight print defects or during high speed. Trying to fix dimensions and artifacts is really difficult. Deltas are also MASSIVE relative to their build volume, I don't think I would ever go back to one when cheap high performance corexy printers are available. I don't trust my delta to not have a catastrophic failure if left alone.
Anybody else notice the heavy smoothing applied to the benchies? I think they need to get away from speed and focus on the other features. You probably wont be able to print anything useful at those speeds and filament that will work at those speeds will be an issue. Much like the bambu printers the filament will determine your print speed not the machine at this point.
Exactly
that is a 3d render
There was no 3 half price deal on either I was trying at the exact time it just disappeared when time came
It was like an ebay bid war. Someone was spamming the refresh button
Yeah me lol
They just told me how it worked.
Post purchase they are going to count the first 3 purchases and discount then after the fact. Here’s a copy and paste of there message.
Hello, my friend.
We will count the top three orders and then refund half of the price for customers, this is absolutely real and effective activities, hope you can understand and trust!
Best regards
FLSUN Service Team
I cant wait to see this running!
I’d appreciate seeing it walking first
@@NathanBuildsRobots I thought Bryan Vines had first dibs on dad jokes!
Been waiting for days .. finaly my favourite printer expert uploads he's opinion.
Opinions are like ______. Everybody's got one.
Also, wanted to wait for official specs to be announced
The Bambu Lab black friday deals looked sweet.. and i kinda wanted a 2nd X1.. But now im waiting what FLSUN brings to the table. i would not mind the extra build height of the FLSUN printers. Are you going to review one in the near future?@@NathanBuildsRobots
Any word on if they followed the speed benchy rules?
They have a video online you can check, they actually show it doing the crazy print speed thing. I don’t think they are bluffing
I'm missing something, on the paper they declare a diameter of 320 mm by 430 in height but on the Facebook page they insist on writing: printing area 320*320*430... it doesn't seem the same to me...
I am waiting for a printer with 80-90 degC heated chamber.
All this and it's a Delta printer. Nearly every person I know that bought a V400 and a good portion of product reviewers that have one say the same thing. They work well, for a bit, they break even better, and they stay broken. Hard pass. I'll stick with Bambu, Creality and Elegoo. They work, work well and best part. Stay working.
Looks impressive but my 3 Bambu X1 Carbons have nearly a 99% up time and are now a proven design for my print farm. Can't see jumping ship now.
Do you think the P1S or P1P have the same reliability as your X1 Carbons?
The Bambu printers are pretty good. I’ve been into printing for almost 10 years. Other than the Voron the Bambu X1c n p1p in my opinion are the best for the money. I have 3 x1 s and 3 p1p s i’ve printed thousands of hours with little to no failures.
Oh man, I've never owned a delta printer. This looks fun.
Stay far away from them, nothing but trouble. Stick with a CORE XY.
Deltas for life. Never had a better printing machine that was faster than everything around like the Rostocks.
ya the issue for me is that it still uses a belt. so you're going to be dealing with artifacts at those speeds no matter how much vibration compensation you have because the belts will stretch. for less than twice the price for the s1, you could get a peopoly magneto with linear motors. then you're never worried about belt stretch and these kind of speeds might not just have acceptable print quality but actually good print quality.
You mean the printer they haven't even shipped yet?
@markm49 I mean ya it was a pre sale. Didn't flsun do the same thing? Both are established companies and I expect both will deliver. I'd still rather a pre-sale linear motor than buy a belted printer. It really will make a huge difference in quality. If they fail, I'd get my money back and buy a troodon 2. All the benefits of a voron 2.4 without all the diy or printed parts.
WOW!!!>.. I was getting the Flsun 400 today!!.... not anymore...I'm not in a hurry... T1 looks like my new little friend :)
Love this channel!.
The softer your voice gets, the louder your hype gets
After many reviews of s1, in summary it is very green, bamboo keeps going, there is nothing to worry about XD
Fast yes, but 1,400 for 330x430? It's almost the price of the orange storm giga!
I have owned every single Flsun printer, V400 (300x400?) have the size for for 99% of the people, where as T1 is just a little bit small (260x330?).
This will be much more suitable for rapid prototyping workflow for professionals. Lets say you are developing a new electronics enclosure. Having a prototype in hand in what, under an hour? It's insane.
on kickstarter the 1250 is gone almost out of 1500 the real price will be 2500 so no not the same
Entirely different target audience. The giga is for large prints or in a production scenario with its 4 synchronised head, the flsun ones are for fast prints as well as for difficult materials, especially since both have internal spool storage and 120c beds.
I absolutely love it but it's an absolute unit! We're talking about 21" x 22" x 40" and 85lbs! Holy cow, this is not a one person lift and shift. Absolutely no one will be putting these on their Ikea shelves, need to lose some weight before I can seriously consider it and for this reason I'm out :(
What square size do we get from the 260 diameter ?
Geometrically speaking
83mm square fits inside of 260 diameter circle
226mm square fits inside of 320 diameter circle
On both you have 56% additional area in the 4 truncated hemispheres around the perimeter. Square beds tend to have more usable space, but the corners of a square bed tend to have worse temperature uniformity compared to a circle, which has no corners so should be more uniform throughout.
Will be worth doing a breakdown of all this stuff in a real review.
@@NathanBuildsRobots thx for the answer. 83mm square in a 260 diameter is really small, is this really true?
@@NathanBuildsRobots you mean 183mm not 83mm right?
I wonder if the filament dry box heater could be used to also heat the printer enclosure.
The Bambu effect: Every other manufacturer who has been fleecing the public with mediocre drek for years wakes up and realises they have to do some work.
What about accuracy video "FLSUN V400 Delta Printer Accuracy Issues" shows problems unsolved.
Considering the flow rate it’s probably going to be actually able to print at those speeds unlike creality and Bambu which can move at those speeds but even a 0,2 layer height will hit the limits of the hotend before it hits the limits of the motion system
Yeah right, because FLSun are such printing manufacture geniuses.. Come on.. They don't exactly have a great track record of reliable printers before the v400 came out..
An apron? for 3d printing? Good lord I don't even use a heavy apron to do blacksmithing with red hot steel.
Once I got a steel chip inside of my sock somehow Cant say Id go as far as to wear an apron, but at least some boots and pants that cover my ankles.
Anyone concerned aboutmediuk to long term quality?
2236.936 MPH sound barrier goes BOMB :)
lmao I can't wait for the dB test
@@NathanBuildsRobotsremember Concord sonic booms where not allowed over the UK, lol
Are you going to review BOTH?
Whats the price with a multicolor printing option? The Bambulabs selling point is he AMS and 500mm/s.
don´t get me wrong this is a very interesting printer even the 1300€ /1500€ price is okay i think but its for different customers than the bambulabs
also i have seen Voron´s print benchys in under 3 minutes soo....
How to buy it, as it says sold out.
It’s going on sale in 1 hr. Make sure to spam the refresh button at 9AM EST to crash their website 🤣
Let's see how it actually runs before making such statements :) FLSUN has not actually shown any evidence of the speed or prints yet. (I say that as an FLSUN QQS-Pro and FLSUN V400 owner)
Info on Delta's in general is pretty limited. Comparison of delta's to corexy is even more scarce. On paper these look awesome for the price, especially the T1. You got love the strategy FLSUN is doing here. limited actual demo, zero interaction with the community, presale with no specifics on when, in what looks like an attempt to to hold people off buying competitor products over the Christmas holiday.
Info on deltas is absolutely NOT limited... LOL SeeMeCNC was killing every cartisian around for a lot of years.
waiting for some sample prints
How's the part availability and price for parts that wear out with use? Is it much worse than with an Ender 3? Now that I'm buying a bunch of upgrades for my printer I'm realizing that it quickly adds up in cost enough to consider printers in the ~500$ range, but at least it's easy to get cheap replacement parts for an ender.
These deltas are a whole new world to me. I'm not really interested in speed as much as quality and reliability (and ease of use), to be honest. What are they like for that? Does anyone know?
Print quality is usually excellent, but Deltas often require a little more fiddling to get set up perfect.
Cheers, OldsJunkie. I don't like that sound of that! Mainly because I have a slight tendency to kill kit (I was a physicist a lifetime ago and the legacy lives on, apparently . . . :0). Good to hear the print quality is high, though. I'll have a think @@oldsjunkie1
Got it for 1/2 off t1 is on order.
$250 for that printer is a deal
this bad boy is missing AMS, other than that sounds very impressive
Damn that seems like it may throw down as the new champ.
I'll be the beta tester. Made my order. Can give feedback in "February" when it ships 😂
?
Not interested in tis style of printer but I love how the tech keeps getting better and better
doesnt ship till february lol nah bro
I'd love to see the quality of these prints. My roomate just got the X1, id love to out do him!
wow these look amazing. on the website for me it says shipping from oversea warehouses. Any idea on how much shipping cost and if there will be additional customs duty? thanks a lot for your great videos!
Probably depends on your region. Here in the US I don't have to pay customs very often, only when ordering from specific companies
what competition?
aren't flsun the only ones who make delta printers?
3D Printing got past the speed needs, the future best sellers are the ones who implement the best multi color printing with least amount of waste and fastest color change cycle. FLSun selling point is only speed and I dont think anything over 600mm is even reasonable (my new KE shakes violently at 300mm lol, I would not need anything faster)
Video I saw fans seemed Ridiculously loud but suppose need that for cooling layers
Cool, glad to see there are competing technologies. Why is it that there are no bambulab X1E reviews ?
there is the matter of how prints look at 500 and 20000 is not good, so even faster is even worse? gotta wait to see more before i shell out
Wait for reviews. I love my SRs but I've had many flsuns and every single one has had issues with bed levelling being out on some parts of the bed. Even with me checking every single thing, converting the SRs to klipper to add more mesh points etc, still isn't the best. FLSUN haven't been helpful with support for this, so you end up relying on the community.
That's my main issue. Let's see what happens.
Also they need an AMS for it to be worth it to many people so the choice is not clear at all.
It doesn't matter as they are illegal.
They offer 1 year on warranty in EU instead of 2 per EU law!
I have already warn them about this and that I will report them.
God bless the EU. Their consumer protection is amazing
Warranty is voluntary for the companies to give, Warranty is really only good if the conditions are better than what the law provides.
Imagine being such a pain in the ass... LOL
Thanks bro❤..lucky I haven’t put my $ in the V400.
Honestly? FLSun is one of the few 3d printer companies I actually trust. I've owned a Super Racer when it was still new and managed to push that monstrosity up to 300mm/s^2 at 12,000mm/s^3 acceleration speeds and was getting *decent* quality prints. Their machines are incredibly solid, even if they aren't welded frames like the BambuLab ones. They use actually high quality parts, and their claims have 100% landed on mark or surpassed themselves on every printed from them I've used/owned/tested. If these two new machines are as good as they claim (always that chance, I'm not biased), then it will be a serious contender for king of speed possibly surpassing BambuLab. (You know, if people can get past the Delta style print structure as opposed to CoreXY)
FLSUN like Creality over promises and under delivers and 9 out of 10 times you pay full price and then continue to spend money for "mandatory upgrades" to make your machine work as intended.
Flsun my nightmare 😢
You having issues with yours ?
I think your probably one of the few that actually have reviewed this.
You are the best!
That S1 looks real tasty
An S1 would fit nicely below my elevated bed :)
If it can print sideways I'd stack 4 under my bed
@@NathanBuildsRobots Mmmm ... Some YT guy tested if a machine could print upside down ... that was no problem.
Sideways for a delta may be though.
I will wait until the 37th.. I am sure to get one of them Aprons then
What’s the point of having a high speed printer if you don’t have an apron?
They raised the price on T1 by $100 to $599. That now puts me in the "no" for the VLSUN. The 3rd round of pre sales is going to push the ship date out about 3 months from this review, that's a long time in the 3d printer world, especially after all of the development that took place in late 2023. I'll probably look for something on the lower end with automatic bed leveling and a direct drive, then revaluate at the end of 2024 (I'm on voxelab aquilia...........so it item)
I just ordered the x1c a few days ago... :c
Which is 100x better than this unproven Chinese marketing bullcrap
@@LauLex ok great just wanted the confirmation thats the x1c is better than waiting for that!!
@@LauLex .....the X1C is literally unproven chinese marketing bullcrap too lmao. They sold gullible people on their lidar which was proven to be a pointless marketing gimmick. Even their ludicrous mode is a marketing gimmick. Bambu lab has taken more L's in one year than creality in the last decade.
Oh man… the Devil is in the details. I don’t have any opinion before I can use one myself.
Delta printers are so cool to watch
Where is their Multi Filament unit? (AMS or MMU or what ever you want to call it). They will never destroy competition with out. doing something better than what is out their.
39 minutes after release am here without notification
😱
I love the specs but wait... no wifi? In 2023? Seriously, with how loud these fast machines are now, you need to put them somewhere far from people. No LAN print and camera monitoring is... well, that's a deal breaker for me :-(
Their demo literally prints at 150mm 😂
Damn 2500 aud for the s1 and 1000 aud for the t1? I’ll get the latter
I'm a simple man that thinks inside the box... never been a huge fan of the Delta style.
90mm3/s is absolutely absurd
I'd expect to actually hit around 60mm³ under normal conditions, but that's still insane compared to my 12mm³ currently. 5x the flow
It's bullshit, that's what it is
FLSun, am I the only person who is completely let down by their products..?
I really want to save the environment. 👾
CGI benchies in 8 minutes?
Yes, only the finest blender renders are allowed.
Alllready sold out it says
Sale starts in 45 minutes at 9AM EST
*Bamub lab was already made obsolete right after the K1 and X-Plus were released*
Oh yeah, so you sure about thatCreality stuff is absolute junk!