Improving Your Forehand Kinetic Chain - Creating Lag Without Wrist
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- This video demonstrates how to create lag and highlights the importance of coordinating movements to get the ideal kinetic chain. Watch how Nitzan and I work together to make his forehand more coordinated and allow him to get a more reliable and effective strike on the ball.
Get your own video analysis at www.tpatennis.com
Follow TPA tennis at:
Instagram: / tpatennis
Facebook: / tpatennis
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Limbus Company - Teaser] Season5 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8anKuEeZLeI/mqdefault.jpg)
5:44 onwards aren't you talking about internal shoulder rotation not supination? Supinaton is forearm. You then start talking about "shoulder supination". The shoulder doesn't supinate, it rotates. I think your use of terminology isn't helping to explain the biomechanics.
I am taking about achieving supination. Pronate supinate pronate. Forehands and serves need this. Obviously the shoulder doesn’t supinate and you need internal shoulder rotation to achieve supination. But you can also have ISR without the correct supination. I demonstrated the role of the shoulder to achieve the supination.
@@TomAllsopp Thanks...understood! Really helpful video.
@@cam1210 Thanks for your comment. You brought up a good point. When I watch my videos back there are always things I wish I had said or explained better. Talking about ISR would have certainly made it more complete. Thanks for being so pleasant too haha.
@@TomAllsopp it’s actually external shoulder rotation in the backswing, internal shoulder rotation ISR occurs throughout contact and into follow through.
Thanks for taking the time to explain a complicated biomechanical series of movements that all players wanting to raise their level of play have to understand. It is complicated but it certainly gives a more minute focus to ones practice.
Have seen hundreds of videos but never seen this point of supination of arm and shoulder explained. Keep up the great work. Very helpful and good quality videos. Thank you 👍
Revelation! Well explained. Throw the arm and not the wrist. The wrist will follow. Lead with the elbow to stipendate. Similar to leading with the elbow on the serve. Real eye opener.
Sorry the audio is a bit rubbish. Hope you are still able to enjoy it!
“Loose with your arm, not with your hand.” This goes against much of what is taught on RUclips but it’s what I’ve observed at the practice courts of pros during tournament preparation.
If you believe Tom, your forehand will be much more consistent. Transformative. Epiphany. It has done wonders for me.
Thank you Tom! Your insight into biomechanics is above reproach!
there's a lot of bull poop on RUclips about active wrist "snap" or "action". 99.9% of even high level players would be better off minimizing wrist movement. This is a decent video.
This is brilliant. If I use my wrist, the racquet head often goes in front of elbow, opens the racquet face and I have no rotation into the ball.
For me at least, supination incorporates the bigger muscles, and I can keep butt cap in front, closed face, and earlier contact.
I think top players LOOK wrists, but really it’s letting the racquet go after contact-there’s a great Vic Braden video where he analyzes Agassi (who everyone used to say was ‘wristy’ when he came along-but really, he was just letting it go after contact..and it basically kept his swing going forward until follow-through, it wasn’t driving the shot.
My sense is coaches who fixate on wrist really mean to initiate follow through after contact-to help focus on forward motion rather than use wrist to provide the power. I see so many players slapping with wrist, and unless timing is perfect the ball can fly. And consistency suffers.
Thanks, this really helps-mostly getting the rotation right, letting the elbow get back in front of the wrist letting the shoulder provide power.
I'd love to hear or see your thoughts on the role of the elbow and the biceps in the kinetic chain. I see there are several comments about (internal) shoulder rotation being the key element, but imo it seems the elbow/biceps part is where things often break down, even when players manage to activate leg, hip and shoulder drive.
At one point in any sound kinetic chain, it is the elbow's role to drive the chain (using the biceps muscles I presume). To me, it looks like this is the part referred to as "extension". During this phase, the legs, the hips and the shoulder have stopped or slowed down to (almost a) stop. The only part moving from then on, is the arm, and the "force" that should be driving the arm forward, is the upper arm, using the biceps to lift and rotate the shoulder, akin to an uppercut elbow hit.
Even when a player has a straight arm forehand, where internal shoulder rotation (ISR) plays a more important role than with a bent arm FH, there still is a point where the efficient kinetic requires an elbow/upper arm acceleration, and the arm to bend.
I think they provide stability but I think of the arm as more passive, gravity (pendulum) accelerates racket, and hip drive provides additional pulling power through ‘slot’ to contact.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! This is awesome information!!
What would you say about not “patting the dog” or closing the racquet face on the take back? Seems like most coaches on RUclips teach closing the face which tends to introduce a more wristy action.
I hate pat the dog idea. It should happen naturally. Focusing on it is rarely useful
Yes, don’t like ‘pay the dog’ either. I teach players to allow gravity to drop the racket like a pendulum while the hips and torso provide the pulling power through to contact. Teaching this varies in difficulty with each player.
When I try the arm supination I lose all topspin if anyone can help
Supinate less and close the racket face
have you ever heard on ESR and ISR..??..learn how to perform them and coordination.That`s the way to do it.The rest is bla..bla..bla
Looks pretty much identical to the forehand of Karue from MyTennisHQ channel. Great! 👍
Thanks, it's taken me15 years to find the missing link.
Using the shoulder for supination is an absolute epiphany for me. Thanks so much for the awesome tip and especially for demonstrating what the arm and shoulder movement actually looks like.
You're welcome. Thanks for the comment!
Same! :)
Could it be because of the ‘hold the racket as loose as possible’ madness, Tom? Folks almost compete with each other claiming they hold it like 1 out of 10 in firmness!
One more thing, how about imagining it like throwing your elbow forward? That might help with the internal shoulder rotation that he’s probably missing.
Haha yes. Being as loose as possible with the hand/grip has got a lot of people into trouble!
@@TomAllsopp
Some think that you need a grip as loose as possible to be able to swing fast. They give the example ‘how tightly would you hold a stone if you wanted to throw it as fast as possible?’ Why would you need to swing the racket as fast as possible though? You’re trying to hit a ball to send it to a certain spot on the court, not trying to throw your racket as far as you can! Anyway, especially for rec tennis, it’s a silly idea. Federer says he could serve like 220kph if he wanted to but he chooses not to. I think that explains something.
This is very interesting. You can clearly achieve the often sought after wrist lag, just by loosening everything your arm AND your wrist. This DOES add power as it provides an extra link in the chain. But what you've demonstrated here is very interesting. By 'exaggerating' the shoulder rotating and elbow leading the way, the wrist still lags, but much later (much closer to the contact point time). You still get all the links but you get a more stable contact because the wrist isn't flopping all over. Very interesting indeed. I'll have to try this.
It's really really tough to learn these mechanics if you didn't start tennis early ages.
Man, you saved my forehand. I was suffering about my forehand. Thanks to you I realized I was purely using my wrist in a “fake pronation”.
About that shoulder rotation made to achieve supination - I noticed the elbow leads the arm movement towards the ball. My question is - is the shoulder rotation + supination that causes this impression or should I have the image to lead this part of the stroke with the elbow?
Before you can have a loose arm you need a loose hand. No? "Hold the racquet tight and ...." Wow that's just the opposite advice of so many teaching pros! In today's world everyone has a different dividing opinion, including on wrist lag!😂😂
I think you are doing harm to his forehand. It looked much more like the pros are hitting before. The wrist lag is a very strong weapon in my opinion.
What? The wrist lag is a strong weapon? He didn't have any. That's what we are working on. The pros don't do what he was doing. None of them.
This is exactly the problem I have recently diagnosed for myself. Spot on.
Serena Coach said using the wrist like a whip is important than the shoulder. wrist follow by shoulder and legs stable
I assume that in order to feel and execute the lag with your shoulder on your forehand, it is useful to hold the racket in a choked position, meaning that the handle should stick out below your pinky a little bit and the lower part of your palm supports the racket automatically. Playing like this when you warm up works like magic. Thus, your muscle memory is set every time you play. You are definitely right by saying too wristy forehand strokes result in a lack of control. This is also useful for practising volleys as to eliminate wristy movements.
The crazy part is that even though it's wrong, most of us amateurs would kill to be able to hit like that. Also props to the hitting partner.
Wow, what a video…..wish I would have found this a year ago when it first came out. As others have mentioned this is huge shift for many of us that are using all wrist and hand (loose as possible) vs. Shoulder, then elbow. Was wondering if you have any drills to start working on this?
Tom I had to look at this video several times to get how you can get the racket face in the right spot at contact without a wrist flip but it finally sunk in. Thanks 1M
Love it. This is super advanced stuff. Everybody thinks "just be loose" but it's not so easy. Key part for me is 2:10-2:15
Yes. Being loose as a goose sounds good in theory
Very interesting! As a very average club player I am stiff armed and struggle with the whole wrist thing. This technique is more accessible,but I would just add that when I tried it, I found it really only worked at higher racquet head speeds, I struggled just stroking the ball . That might well be an ability/technical issue on my part though! I found it naturally lowered my follow through aswell,nearer waist level than shoulder.
That makes sense, but if you watch my forehand in most videos you’ll see I don’t lag that much. You can control how much you’re “throwing” just like you could throw sidearm 20ft or 70ft. Thanks!
Tell him to watch the ball from behind his strings. Watch his racket hit the ball, and view that moment from through the back of the racket strings. On forehand and backhand. Just see what happens.
I like it
Yeah right! Dream on! There's only one player able to do that and he's got a wonky knee now!😂
Excellent advice. The problem is many people can’t track the ball well enough to be able to do this. Tennis Hacker has exercises you can do to improve tracking.
@@Johnstage oh good, glad to hear he’s doing that. Hopefully it doesn’t involve staring at a pencil. Yes, your sending skills can’t be any better than your receiving skills.
this is the right advice that I only got to learn it by myself (and then I watched this video). the right way to 'teach' how to use wrist to whom does not know how to use wrist is to teach them not to 'use' wrist but instead use your body to force your wrist to move the right way.
I think this is one of the most fundamental and most difficult concepts to master. Trying to hit with a margin of safety and enough topspin in matches makes my forehand more wristy than in practice, which totally throws off my contact point.
A couple things, Stan The Man is a great example for this. Also, we must revisit grip tightness. I began consulting a pitching coach I know to discuss sidearm mechanics for this reason, interesting.
OMG that’s awesome, I’ve been doing the same thing but did not know that I was. I cannot wait to try this out !
Thie video is amazing. I have never heard a better explanation 👍👍👍
Great. Thanks! You’ll probably like my other videos then. Check em out.
The instructions are confusing because supination is a wrist / forearm movement. The action that you want him to create is shoulder external rotation.
You’re not wrong. But I demonstrated this and explained the difference between supinating the arm by initiating the shoulder and doing it just with the wrist. Pretty clear.
This is correct, some refer to it as long axis rotation. For me it looks like the face angle is open more than most advanced players as he starts his forward motion into contact. Also some footwork that could be more consistent for those middle balls. Too open stance at times for a neutral ball down the middle. The other concern I have is ...where is the target context? Is the objective just to make the ball in play? Mechanics are going to vary a bit based on the objective.
Y not try to tell ur student to imagine a ext.shoulder rotation movement in the forward swing after pat the dog ??!!
That will resolve everything else... As the torso squares up to the net , the arm has to come thru with that pre.stretched shoulder jt and then just internally rotate to windshield wiper 🎾
It’s all easy in theory
Stop using words like supination repeatedly - explain something simple- like a good coach. Horrible tone as well
It’s not my problem that it’s not simple enough for you.
Yup, way too much wrist there. The flick is very unstable and will have problems with timing. Returning power drives and fast balls accurately will be a huge issue
Thanks for the great explaination.
Ppl are finally figuring out (including me) the wrist needs to be stabilized for better, more reliable shots. The focus always has been “elbow elbow elbow” completely ignoring the noodle action of the wrist, causing inconsistency (hit or miss) with the FH. Funny enough, about 2 weeks ago my jr kid finally realized this on her own and disciplining herself to “quiet down” the wrist action. Going to take another 2-4000 shots for the new muscle memory to kick in but luckily, she gets plenty of court time and the FH already looking 1000x better. This is a great and detailed video. Thanks for the upload!
Great video and excellent teaching: "You feel like your hitting with your shoulder". This sentence alone helped me very much. Thank you!
Super exciting! Thank you very much!
Jumping on the forehand can't be helping with throwing the arm at the ball ... If you a skipping a stone accross the lake you would not jump to make your hand faster, you would need good base to spin your body. He definitely hits the ball better when is not jumping during the shot. Just an opinion
Yes you’re correct. He gets far too much of his power through the jump. If he threw better he wouldn’t need to jump. If he didn’t jump he might throw better!
I find it easier myself to give myself a bit more space and lower the racquet earlier, it allows me to throw my arm(and racquet) at the ball easier. It feels more natural because my racquet head has much less downward motion and much more forward one. Also, I try to push as much as possible from the back leg because it allows me to spin fast, but my spin goes to a point(may be when my body is facing forward) then it stops and it's all my hand flying through the ball.
You are doing a great job of looking at different ways to explain the concept of striking the ball. Makes me really think of how I can explain what I feel and try to do while playing. Thank you
Been playing for forty years and you finally showed me how the arm works instead of the wrist. Thenkyouthankyouthankyou! 5:0 5:02
Very interresting to gain in stability ! I think I have the same problem : unstability due to the use of « lag » or « relaxed » at the wrist level. I use a « straight » arm and I wonder how to use your advice at the arm level 🤔
Great stuff Tom. Good to see you're continuing with this forehand series and each time I learn a little more. Okay, now I have the exact same wrist position as Nitzan when he's doing the 'wrong' wristy forehands. I have been aware of this for months now but every time I thought I had made some improvement, videos didn't lie (*I filmed myself*) and it was more or less the same dropping the wrist a bit too early during points. Have you found any drills, on- or off- court, that most effectively correct this muscle memory?
Personally, for me to best calm the wrist and engage the rest more, it's the feeling of elbowing someone behind me during backswing until I feel a stretch in the muscle (chest and back) and then let go and let the hip uncoil to pull everything forward. But during points, whenever there's little less time to prepare, I'd easily revert to forearm/wrist.....
Basically you’re seeing most of my ideas. Off court is tough. I like the throwing a frisbee for the pronation part of it.
@TPA tennis I like a heavy baseball better because of the weight, you’ll see quickly how off target you’ll be adding ‘wristy’ throws.
Bravo Tom. But actually frisbee is the same. When you master it, u do exactly what you teach . Frisbee you just kind a hook with the fingers at the end of throwing motion which is done exactly in a manner you teach. No active wrist action, maybe just the slightest corrective bit. Great work. Like the delivery to.
great analysis ! imho there comes an external rotation of the arm first. then a supination of the forearm respectively the hand, last a little movement with the wrist. the whole sequence initiated by the hip.
Great insight! Such detail, never actually thought of that. All i knew before is that i had to stay loose and that was it... Looking forward for more.
This coach has impressive eyes. Hitter is p.g. too, even when he's doing it wrong.
5:32
Brilliant ✅✅🔥
Tennis is a hitting, not a throwing sport and referring to any throwing techniques - frisbee, stone-skimming etc. - or even practicing such is dabbling with disaster and potential injury.
Since you are in The States I’d have him learn tree-felling with an axe to improve his hitting. Here in Japan the image of hitting dust out of a futon or mat usually does the business, either that or a mention of Ohtani san hitting home runs for The Angels!!
I totally agree that it’s about the strike. We talk about this a lot. I even made a hammer analogy in this video to get that across to hit. But the kinetic chain is a throw. Fact!
This is such a good lesson but something that almost never gets talked about, and something I only recently realized. Everyone focuses on this 'lag' as a result of staying loose and basically pulling a rope...but the reality is that the racquet configuration gets into that position because of the shoulder rotation. I've found it tough to fix though, and its worth noting that most top players have way more shoulder ROM than the average player, which enables them to do things that look easy but are extremely difficult.
Thanks. If you can skim a stone you have enough ROM!
The kinetic chain concept has too many missing links and broken links. And told by tennis instructors who don't understand physics.
I was just watching your tennis videos with someone. Amazing. Dunning Kruger at its finest.
@@TomAllsopp With someone? You mean you were gerkin' the gherkin. So keep gerkin' the gherkin. Monotone Moron - clever you were never meant to be. BTW: I'm never monotone: Hey Border ruclips.net/video/-N2ReW8qGEs/видео.html
Post one of your tennis videos instead. Give everyone a laugh!
@@drbonesshow1 Never a monotone? 😭
@@Johnstage I prefer intonation and expressiveness. Like for example: Hey Border ruclips.net/video/-N2ReW8qGEs/видео.html
Tom, what's your time for responding to VM and website? Left messages last week I believe, hasn't been that long, but just want to have an idea. Thank you for the great content.
@@TomAllsopp emailed. thanks
Nothing bothers me more than watching wristy players.!!
Haha my least favorite forehand is Tsitsipas’s. Maybe it’s just me but I really dislike it lol
@@TomAllsopp interesting that you say that! Here I was thinking that Stef's forehand was most similar to yours (I really like the elegance of Eastern grip forehands). I would've thought you'd like how Stef does not 'pat the dog' and rather has his strings perpendicular to the ground during the wrist lag. Is the only issue that it's too wristy, or is there something else? Thanks so much for your videos!
@@taters699 it’s just super slappy with an eastern grip. If I imitated that I’d have no control at all. Amazing that he can do it.
Do you think that we should have ulnar deviation by "pushing" with index finger just before the contact?
Radial deviation. An ex-ATP coach suggested I try that. Squeeze with index finger just before contact.
Might have to write a book on the kinetic chain guy
If the racket is pointing toward the rear before the forward swing, it won't lag and flip. Maybe try pointing the racket toward the front or at least toward the side fence before swinging it.
And do this by keeping the forearm pronated, not supinated when taking it back.
This game is way too hard haha.
Gist of the lesson here 2:16
is a slap sensation normal ?
It’s not a bad thing
@@TomAllsopp thanks man, your on it 👍 well done. Keep up the good work 👏
This is so interesting..on the contrary Patrick Mourtogolou coaches the opposuite. He coaches to lead with the hand, arm, then shoulder.
But that’s not the kinetic chain sequence… is there a video link you can send me?
It's true, Mourotagleau teaches loose, fast wrist and hand and that the shoulder follows the wrist. He teaches it on serve too. He says some really non-traditional stuff sometimes but nonetheless Tom and Patrick are probably my favorite informational coaches.
@@TomAllsopp absolutely! I am pretty sure you are right..it's not Knetic chain but i figure it ties into the stroke. See link below and would love to hear your thoughts on this..i am experimenting with this and honestly i feel like the stroke is so much smoother when i lead with the hand, arm, and then shoulder..obviously the shoulders and lega are in sync too..i am a intermediate player so i am experimenting a lot but would love to hear your thoughts..your videos are great as always!
ruclips.net/video/4UDI2KScqAw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/lWBuVcJaNpg/видео.html
Another example of Mouraotagleu "hand leading the shot" on serve and forehand
ruclips.net/video/4s_lLHoNwI8/видео.html
@@andreacook3767 it’s just a different way of getting a player to move their body in a certain way. He’s having to supinate his arm a lot because he’s basically encouraging a throwing motion. This is why I like showing videos of me working with a player because you get to hear my advice to them. It’s very hard for me to give advice to everyone. But hopefully people can get something out of it that works for them.
2:10 Great advice
Hey Tom, you can describe how to do it, but why can't you do it on your forehand?
Yes I can. Which bit you think I can't do?
@@TomAllsopp I didn't see your wrist lag like the slow motion videos of the pros. I'll look again and look closer for it.
I’d love to hear you more about that supination concept.
Do you have a video that explains it more?
Theres a few where I mention it. You'l have to look through some of my recent forehand videos.
@@TomAllsopp I must have watched all of your videos. I like how technical you are. I’m an analytic type of guy. But that supination thing is not discussed elsewhere. I think it is an interesting concept. I’d like to get more on this. What is the general idea and what are you seeking by this move.
Supination is turning the palm up to face the sky. In the context of the forehand, you can create racket lag by supinating the wrist OR by externally rotating the arm. Federer and Nadal are examples of players who create wrist lag via arm external rotation. Jack sock is someone who uses a lot of wrist supination to create wrist lag.
@@TennisHacker thanks
I’ll have a look at those
@@TennisHacker the wrist doesn’t supinate, it extends, flexes and moves in radial and ulnar deviation. The forearm supinates and pronates. The wrist goes along for the ride.
Easily one of the BEST videos on the "lag" process from the forehand. THANK YOU !! QQ: Can this cause wrist pain / issues (when you supinate from the pronate position)..?
If you use the internal shoulder rotation/ supination correctly you shouldn’t need much wrist. Thanks!!
@@TomAllsopp TY !! One last question - When you take your racket back, does it make a diff if the racket is facing the right fence or the back fence (right before supination)..?
@@Alucard152000 depends on the grip. You might lose a bit of the throwing motion by supinating too soon
@@TomAllsopp Glad you mentioned that...when is the "correct" time to supinate..? I am fairly new to the Modern Forehand, but I "need" to learn it. I use a semi-western. Apologies for the "20" questions, but you are the first coach that seems to explain this process in such a simple and detailed manner.
@@Alucard152000 I’ve been doing a lot of videos on it. See if you can work through them and I’m sure you’ll find something that helps
Great vid. Goes to show how difficult it is to implement a proper kinetic chain.
I guess this has to do with our wrist-movement-proficiency: most can throw a frisbee, a ball or playing cards with great accuracy and speed, with just a "flick" of the wrist. The problem is when this has to be unlearned or adapted into a new and larger sequence of movements. Add to that, you often have to be able to revert to "wrist" shots at time during a match, when that is the only option, f.inst. out wide "squash" shots.
Difficult indeed! And yes in such an open skill sport you have to be able to improvise. Thanks for the comment.
subscribed because THIS is what ive been looking for all along. THANK YOU! Great video! 2:11 is just perfect