16:22 "The fine for the 17 million dollar sale was a tiny 14k dollars" - there is the saying "A fine is called a fine, because of the sound companies make when receiving one: 'Oh, fine...'"
Just as with the Soviets choosing to steal western electronics technology, the downside of copying is crippling your own research and development infrastructure; your scientists and engineers spend time learning old technology and fall further behind new advances. It also makes you vulnerable to being cut off from copying in time of war. Sometimes the shortcuts take longer.
That was Regan's times, he was not a businessman. Another president would sold the rope to hang himself for another "Trump tower". 8 years without technologies and bunch of presidents, lobbyists and businessmen to give it all for money. All they needed is war, there is no reason to spend time and resources on something else.
That's the theme of a previous video of this channel about Soviet computers: They copied IBM's mainframes but when they had a "workable" system they were late to move from mainframes to minicomputers to PCs. The Soviets weren't fighting toe-to-toe with the entire West but with IBM.
I remember a Soviet engineer not long after the fall of the Soviet Union. He said that the USSR built the worlds largest hydraulic press, the world's largest aircraft, the world's largest dam, and the world's largest microchips.
I just want to say thanks for such interesting videos. I had no idea chips could be so fascinating, and the politics behind them even more so. You have really opened my eyes to what an interesting field this is. Your hard work is very much appreciated.
I've thought that chips were fascinating since I was a kid in the 1980s... Probably why I'm an electronics engineer now (we usually call them integrated circuits, or ICs). Politics, not so interesting to me.
This is why some higher end CNC machines (DMG-Mori NV5000 apparently) have motion sensors inside.... Once moved, you have to call HQ to unlock again, total nightmare for used market, IMO. Also fun, because LinuxCNC is fully 5axis capable, a cheap computer and maybe $500 for a couple of Mesa cards is all that's needed ;-D
@@unclejoeoakland PLCs aren't used to run CNC equipment, only as IO expansion, if at all. And if you weren't afraid of using google, you'd know that it's G2, G3, G8, G9.
@@KOTYAR1 To be fair, it's only on a few machines, mostly as a government thing, and quite arbitrary. You can run a Kern Micro HD inside a flying truck, and arguably it's way more spicy in terms of regulations than an NV5000.
Toshiba got really fucked in the warrantee area because of this. They were a major manufacturer of consumer electronics that were exported to the USA. When Toshiba got banned from importing to the USA, they lost the ability to supply repair parts to USA retail establishments. They still however had to maintain their warrantees. This meant that whenever something as simple as a fuse went bad, Toshiba had to refund the entire wholesale price if the product was still under warrantee and VCRs broke very easily during that time. I don't know if Toshiba paid to have the refunded merchandise shipped back to Japan or if they were even allowed to. They may have just gotten dumped in the trash.
This just shows how sick and rotten the American system of trade restrictions and embargos is. Thanks to the Great China their time is over. The new century will be one of Chinese trade and not American (trade) wars.
Thank you for bringing up historical parallels in the subjects you explore. It is a great contrast to the headline-chasing click-baiting dreck that worms its ways into the explainer/video essay corner of RUclips.
One story I heard about back in the 80's was when the Soviets managed to have a Digital Equipment VAX 11/780 shipped, which at the time was a top-of-the-line minicomputer. They were able to get the order through a bunch of shell companies and the computer, which was the size of a number of large refrigerators, was crated and in transit. However, US Customs was on to it and managed to intercept the shipment in one of the Scandinavian countries, I forgot which. US Customs agents removed the computer from its crate, replaced it with a bunch of concrete blocks, sealed the crate, and sent it on its way. The agents said they would've loved to see the look on faces when the crate was delivered and opened. Another story had to do with microchips. Chip designers at Digital Equipment wrote on their chips in Russian, viewable under a microscope, "VAX - When you care enough to steal the very best."
I heard a story about the VAX that did get through the customs. The Soviets started to use it, but it quickly run out of disk space. So they did an in-depth investigation of what was going on. It turned out that Western intelligence had added come code to the operating system, to collect data on what was done on the computer. The data was supposed to be periodically sent out. But in the USSR the network was much less developed, and the computer was simply not connected to the Internet. While the routine was unable to communicate with the control center, in the meantime it just kept writing the data into a file. Since this continued for some time, eventually all the space was filled. And that's how it was discovered. Sounds too dumb to be true, but who knows...
Small note about Kongsberg, "våpenfabrikk" translates to "arms manufacturer", and is a branch of the Kongsberg firm. It is not usually necessary to include the second part, unless you are talking about several branches and want to adress them separately, i.e. "Kongsberg Marine" vs "Kongsberg Defense and Aerospace".
@@foobar6846 Don't be pedantic. Kongsberg might be best known as being a name of a city, but Kongsberg is also the name of many other places and things. Using the name 'Kongsberg' in the context of technology and manufacturing when referring to Kongberg Gruppen or it's relevant subsidiary is fine. It isn't like there are multiple arms manufacturers using the Kongsberg name, so it should confuse none.
If we look at the Russian defense industry today, the entire floors at the top factories there are filled with ultra-precision CNC machinery from Germany, Switzerland, Austria. Yesterday's story about the relatively mundane american CNC machines recently delivered to Russia during the war is just the tip of the iceberg.
Yup, If you watch the RUclips channel of the Russian Defense Industry "Combat Approved", they showcase different Russian weapon systems and their manufacturing process, their factories and manufacturing complexes are indeed filled with western equipment from CNC to PCB verification machines.
It always strikes me as a weird double standard that no business in a western nation manufactures without a completely global source of tooling (German, Italian, Chinese, American machines all under one roof) but the second its a non-western country people say its a lack of independence, national capability, copying, or even being directly "enabled" as a puppet state if the VAST majority of machines aren't entirely indigenous (as in design, manufacture and support). And for reference I work quality control for manufacturing these days, so while that doesn't give me any "expertise" to judge design, I can speak with reasonable authority about how quickly the phone call goes overseas if something isn't going as planned.
Welp, the industrial base in post soviet Russia deteriorated heavily. So much infact, a tractor company funded to make 100% homegrown russian tractors couldnt do better than buy disassembled czech tractors and assemble them in their factory, its that bad.
The current cars made at Moskvich car assembly after French cut ties after Putin's aggression on Ukraine, are in fact Chinese cars, disassembled and put together at factory. One can purchase the same car Chinese outside of Russia and lover cost. I remember when being a young tennager purchasing a small 2.5ccm model motor, which failed to run. After taking it apart and inspecting, I knew why it never built compression. I guess many living Eastern Block had the same experience with products from former USSR.
@@SheepInACart It's not a double standard because western countries don't usually claim to be independent of other (western) countries. We don't see dependency on another country as a major issue. Countries like Russia or China are held to a different standard because they strive to be independent entities, not aligned with the west but in competition, and so we expect their supply chains to be independent of the west as well.
The technology in question was also not the propeller CNC machines directly, but rather the lithography equipment to make microelectronics to control them
Speaking about submarines, more recently Thailand had found iteslf in a fix as it's planning to buy subs from China, whose engines are to be supplied by German company MTU, but which is no longer possible as EU is now more strictly enforcing export sanctions (introduced after the _Tian An Men_ incident in 1989) against the engines being sold for use to China (since the engines could be used not only for civilian but also for military applications)
"The imperialists are so hungry for profits that they will sell us the rope with which to hang themselves." PRC's CCP listened and followed through with Nixon
I remember this well. I studied in the city of Kongsberg 85-88 and we were working on a project to connect the CNC machines at the school to a LAN. The CNC machines was programmed using a paper strip that was fed into the reader. By connecting the reader to the LAN the communication with the CNC was greatly improved. I remember that the Kongsberg company was split into smaller companies after the incident.
About the Toshiba propeller issue, I am proud to say that in the late 1980s I worked for a major PC and peripherals distributor where I bet my career to terminate carriage of all Toshiba products. I won the argument, so to speak. Inquiries or RFPs from major accounts thus affected were referred to me, where I presented a package of relevant published materials describing the damage to US/western security. This was generally well received. Over the next half decade this cost Toshiba..... well, a lot of sales revenue. Very satisfying. But enough was enough, and today I own a Toshiba laptop.
I have a New in Box old-tech Toshiba rice cooker from the 70s. Toshiba doesn’t make any new compelling products. Instead of Cloning IBM mainframes, MITI failed to fund basic science investments. Toyota vehicles are favored by insurgents. (Free advertising). Toshiba is a conglomerate and one arm did something bad. Glad if your laptop choice fits your need. I’m winTel/Apple/*Nix & retired, but loved Fujitsu SANs.
There isn't anyting particular about Toshiba laptop is there? Last i looked they were mostly Compal machines like many others, basically every brand carries somewhat customised macines made by Taiwanese ODMs. Which is a story in and of itself, since back then i expect Compaq was one of the major benefactors of Toshiba business being shunned. And guess what Taiwanese company they spun off.
@@SianaGearz Wasn't bragging on Toshiba laptops. Client gave me one out of a lot, as a tip/gift. So, it picked me, and we get along. Honestly, it doesn't matter anymore except at the very extremes, does it? The vast middle are all overkill. Cheers.
@@SianaGearz Toshiba branded laptops used be reasonably priced and reliable way BITD. As a conglomerate/Zaibatsu, Toshiba did naughty on the CNC and iirc NEC had input as well. As a US partner country it was a dumb move that a Toshiba’s Conglomerate’s Branch did something so stupid along with NEC.
So. Toshiba went under then just like Enron did for accounting fraud ?... So basically your decisions to kill their sales forced them to be creative with their accountancy. And this indirectly also led to the 2008 financial crashes.... Lol... God.. everything makes sense if we stopped to think about things. This indirectly boomed a sector of accounting software's to ensure that everything was above board etc. And even now. Same things...
I was at a conference in 1987 when I heard a Compaq engineer say to a Toshiba rep that selling the propeller tech to the Russians really upset the US. I thought propeller-Toshiba? Toshiba was a laptop leader then...Compaq took over.
@pais culebra OK, there was an undercurrent of fear and loathing of Japan. But you are basically saying that asianometry's post was off base. In spite of a very robust yen which impacted Japanese exports, Japanese computer companies such as Hitachi, Fujitsu/Amdahl and NEC were doing great in the US before the scandal.
@pais culebra The tarifs were imposed 1 month after the US found out about the scandal. Even Electronic News had troubling figuring out the problem the issue with the semiconductor agreement
@pais culebra Had an uncle who was in international business in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Fought against the Japanese in WWII. A quiet, intelligent peaceful man. He would do no business with the Japanese. Times change but could never forget or forgive whatever it was he had seen.
Was in the U.S. Navy submarine service. When these two companies sold computerized milling equipment to the USSR, the Soviet submarines all of a sudden became a lot more quieter. That put U.S. sailors at a higher risk. I haven't owned a Toshiba product since nor will I in the future. My Toshiba stereo system went flying out my bedroom and into an alley, where it shattered into many pieces.
@@Razielchan666 The U.S.S.R. was more of a threat to their own sailors. Had to change out the crews every three year because the had hit the life time dosage of radiation.
I enjoyed the way you laid it out so precisely this very important subject. I heard about this a long time ago but wasn't sure what came of it. Thank You job well done! Go America!
As egregious as the French sales were, The Toshiba kongsberg scandal was far worse. France did not share a land border with the Soviet Union. Norway did. The Japanese considered some of its islands occupied by the Soviets and now Russia. I Soviet submarines were a constant hazard for Japan. The sale should have been treated as nothing short of treason with the result being industrial sepaku to set an example for others. Unfortunately, living under the American nuclear umbrella and having American bases on countries infantilizes their politics. Grievance is a poison to the mind and soul and destroys the body politic. We are seeing what it does in America now.
for Japan, non of those actually matter because they have already surrender all their sovereignty to the US. The best they can hope for is somehow the US get into conflict with another super power and they'd be free from it.
Was there any consequence on the French company for selling the similar machine? How come both company selling similar machines but only the Japanese got blame ?
They were put on trial in Luxembourg, see the Oct. 1987 NY Times article "FRENCH LINKED TO SOVIET SALE" (I'd post a link but RUclips seems to delete them). The French company involved did not sell a propeller CNC milling machine, they sold American-made lithography equipment to make microelectronics to control said CNC machines.
I remember when this story broke. It was quite the scandal. This allowed the Soviet subs to run quieter. Before this the joke was that all you needed to hear a Soviet sub was to stick your ear to the pressure hull of your ship.
I bought myself and my father a Toshiba CD player just prior to the espionage story came out. They still work. Soon, those CD players disappeared from the market.
The American's developed and fielded the first skewback propeller back in 1960 with the Launch of the ill fated Thresher. It was a 7 bladed scimitar shaped propeller that lower cavitation. Meanwhile the soviets fielded all sorts of propellers from five bladed, to counter rotating four bladed propellers to try to reduce noise. After they received their 9 axis milling machines. The latest soviet submarine the Akula was under construction and fitted with these 7 bladed skewback propellers blades the same year and blew away the Americans with how quiet she was compared to previous classes. They said they didn't think the Russians could build a boat this quiet for 20 more years. Furthermore previously built Russian submarines began to be outfitted with the propeller design making them quieter too. Toshiba made the world a less safe place in 1983 and sadly today as well as many of the Submarines constructed to carry nuclear missiles in the soviets era are the backbone of their ballistic missile fleet today. Also Walker was an idiot that had 50k gambling's debts. The worst part is the Russians paid him only 30k to betray his country.
Right on. If Toshiba was concerned that others were breaking the rules, they should have revealed that.. not broken the rules themselves because other countries were making profits selling forbidden items.
@Anthony Xuereb While I can't deny the horror of those atomic bomb droppings, it wasn't the US that started the conflict. The atomic bomb was considered a new weapon in late 1945 and nothing else, it was only later that America would realize the horrors of the use of the bomb and declare that it would never be used unless it's use was first commited against it or its allies. Unlike soviets whose plans often had the intention of using it against non nuclear NATO nations during a conflict. Or Russia today's plans to use it if Russian territory is taken even conventially. Japan was a nation that committed many evils against its enemies and civilians back in the day from rape, genocide to toture. It even declared their would be no civilians on Japan and would fight to every last man, woman, and child. It needed to be stopped, and I am thankful it was and not only that by America. Despite the horrors of the Bomb, the US was set on not killing civilians, refusing to attack the Japanese railway as without that, millions would starve. As they had already lost their shipping. Japan today has my respect and is very different from what it was. It realized that the US wouldn't treat it as Japan would have America in defeat. Instead, it rebuilt it into what became the second strongest economy in the world. The soviets abused their war aquisitions, with every previous warsaw pact nation hating them. The US guided them for a while, but both Germany and Japan are strong, independent nations and allies. What Toshiba did was for greed, nothing more.
@@anthonyxuereb792 Please don't google Unit 731! Please don't google how a country loses its sovereignty! Please don't google the amount of war crimes they committed because they thought they could get away with it! Please don't google how they were training civilians to murder people while they slept! USA aRe tHe BaD gUyS!
Like many international organizations (UN such as UNCLOS violations, WTO on technology theft, etc.), it seems like these organizations don't have a good way to police themselves and punish violators. At best complaints are raised but no one suffers from the violation of the rules agreed to.
It's really ironic... If this had been stopped as it should, Russia wouldn't be able to produce anything to modern standards of tolerance and efficiency, leaving them dead in the water... Seems to me though, that this "drip-feed" of manufacturing equipment, slows down Russian manufacturing enough for them to be a threat that requires a strong and profitable western military industry complex, but still weak enough that they can't take on the west head on, AND makes bank for western companies from sales of the equipment.
Toshiba was the Huawei and Astom. Japanese politicians were too corrupt and too weak. NHK ran a documentary programme about Japan was told to stop their OS that was way ahead of DOS.
"In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most. No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores. No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it. This universal truth applies to all systems. Energy, like time, flows from past to future".
@@engineeriumm Yeah, aware but it seems like they spent too much building their HSL network and they overbuilt, just need him to cover the economics and the current state of it
_a demonstration that this was no ploy to win sales for American businesses_ ... or maybe a demonstration that that is exactly what it is: _He also pointed out that the lithography ban directly benefitted American semiconductor equipment makers of items not covered by the bans_
I don't get why USSR couldn't build their own. They had the tools to build the tools. And regardless of what one thinks of the USSR or the quality of their products, they had no shortage of brilliant engineers. If you can build a submarine, you can build a damn CNC milling machine.
It is an excellent question. USSR did build some unique metalworking machines -- there is a famous example of an extra large mill which Japan bought from the USSR. Soviets also originated some important technologies, like EDM machining -- but were never able to commercialize it as successfully as western vendors did. I think there are many reasons, but the most basic one is that nobody really builds anything on their own. Stuff gets built within an ecosystem of whatever components and know-how is available. And it is prohibitively expensive to grow such advanced ecosystems in isolation, unless there is a real market for them. For example, US military have spent serious money on development of image sensors, and they had respectable results. But when image sensors became essential for a consumer market, the amount of investment became so much larger, that the progress accelerated enormously, and now every smartphone has inexpensive cameras with such performance which a decade ago no secret agency could afford. So, USSR was simply missing too many parts -- power electronics, precision bearings, drives, etc. They could not import them, and bootstrapping the whole CNC industry in a bubble was beyond their means. There were probably other important structural reasons, but that would require a dissertation to cover.
It is not the engineers. It is the leaders who screwed up. Not saying western political leaders are smarter but they know to get out of the way from consumer-business-research relation enough to let private development breathing space.
But can they make a better one than what they can steal cost-effectively? Really they did a mix of both and stuck with whatever worked best. It takes an ungodly amount of resources to develop and manufacture top of the line microchips, something the soviets had a hard time justifying. Obviously you need those for a good CNC machine and military equipment. They took the approach of making "good enough" chips instead of trying to take the technological lead. Who knows where else they would have had to cut corners if they put all their resources into microchip R&D
Asianometry did a video on soviet computers you may want to check out that covers the whys in part. But another reason is the lack of precision, computerized machining necessary to build these things among others. There is also the same reasons why the Russians cannot replace Western technology with indigneous solutions on their private markets and why they expect all the BMWs, Audis and Mercedes cars on their roads to blow out eventually. They cant source the parts and their manufacturing is not sophisticated enough for production of indigneous, adequate replacement parts.
Unregulated capitalism proves it will risk giving an enemy a figurative gun to make a buck. Companies in large don't give a shit what happens with their product as long as its profitable. This whole "not my problem" attitude is why we need so much regulation.
If we compare CNC machines to cars, Haas would be an equivalent of a Chevrolet Cavalier. Russians mostly buy expensive German machines which are like a high-end Mercedes. One should certainly investigate why American machines are still being delivered to Russia, but focusing on Haas as something exceptional is barking the wrong tree.
@@cogoid - Keep in mind the accusations came from the Ukrainian government (which is almost as dishonest as the Russian government) and they were vehemently denied by Haas. But to your point about German machines: they may be “German” machines, but there’s almost certainly a lot of American tech in those things.
@@ClockworksOfGL It is quite possible that Haas machines were delivered to Russia in October 2022, as the story alleged. But I also think Haas is being factual in their rebuttal -- if they say that no machines have left from their factory in California for Russia once the sanctions were imposed, it is probably so. Considering how long it takes for a distributor to deliver the machines, both facts can be true simultaneously without contradiction.
I remember when Nixon opened up China they were going to build 707s under license. But they didn't really care about the 707. What they were interested in was the inertial navigation systems. "In fact, it was President Nixon's visit to China in 1971 that inspired the sale of Boeing 707s to China. " "Working in secret, Chinese aircraft engineers have taken one of the Boeing 707 jetliners bought by China in 1972 and built their own copy of it" (Including it's inertial navigation system.....which could be used on their ICBM program.
Airbus also benefits from the experience of Russian experts and has a design center in Moscow. Founded in 2003 as a joint company by Airbus, AFK Sistema and KASKOL Group, the Aiurbus Engineering Center in Russia (ECAR) was the first to be established by the company outside the EU.
Most people don’t know that a lot of the Japanese companies that makes cars and electronics today were building military ships, submarines, aircraft…etc for the Japanese army before defeat. If Japan starts to build their own military again we will have a superpower in no time.
There really isn't much of Japanese electronics industry left, not like it used to be. Engineering subcontracted to Taiwan, manufacturing anywhere abroad. I don't know if they can rebuild it like that. Automotive and heavy are holding on. Foremost if they were to become a military power like that, it would be weak to sanctions if they were to choose the wrong enemy, not necessarily threatening. But i do expect that militarization of Japan is potentially starting soon, in order to have defensive capability against China.
The chain is only as strong as its weakest link. This is especially problematic when your technology is pretty much alone at the top of the world, and your enemies are prepared to go to great lengths and pay any price to get their hands on it.
the post war relationship was bizarre in its own right, the USSR tried to buy IBM mainframes from the US and almost succeeded and the british did trade 2nd generation jet engines with them
Remembering this breaking the news i 87. I was 7. My father explained it as having sold silent electric motors to the CCCP. Makes me wonder if initial coverage was not accurate, and if so, was it on purpose?
Having grown up learning to "duck & cover" before the Nixon administration gave up on the concept of protecting the civilian population from nuclear attack by signing the ABM Treaty embracing the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction, when news broke that Toshiba had assisted the Soviet Union learning to evade our boomer subs I swore I'd never buy anything they made ever again, and still avoid it where possible. I've found a few Toshiba hard drives in various computers I've owned, but I still won't buy anything branded by them. I love Holland and have visited their country five times, but if they fight a ban on shipment of 5nm lithography machines to Chynah, I'll boycott Dutch products for the rest of my life, short though that may be. Every dime hurts.
As a former submariner that served in the 90s, I will not even consider buying a Toshiba product to this day. I don't care if it's the best, or the cheapest, or both.
I think that you will find that it was the British Labour government of the day that sold the Rolls Royce engine design to their mates in the Soviet union.
From the video, I didn't sense any proof that Toshiba's machine was the main source for improvements to the Russian propeller as many other European countries also supplied various equipment and technologies. The main enabler would be the software design tools as no matter how sophisticated the milling equipment, the result only be as better if the design was more advanced. It may be picking on Toshiba because US biased for Europe.
You don't think Soviet Union has top notch engineers and mathematicians who can throw together a program that spits out specialised G-code, or even hand write G-code with logarithmic rulers and punch cards? I saw the tail end of that era first hand there. Things they could develop on paper were well far ahead of things they could actually manufacture. Getting from quantity of 1 to quantity of 100 or more was a problem. I don't have any particular rebuttal to your conjecture that they would have achieved this result with French made machines, i don't know about that. But by all reason you do need more axis for the surface quality, not suitable for simple copy milling.
One thing is wrong: There are no international trade restrictions, but american imposed trade restrictions. Giving a shit about COCOM, was a brave and admirable attitude of the japanaese industry and government.
Frankly I don't see why anybody should pay attention to what the US Government wants. Not like they have a squeaky clean reputation. Rather, they make the CCCP look like nice guys,
Of course the Americans stealthily acquired assets from the Soviets as well. I'm particularly thinking of the SR-71, which incorporated publically available soviet radar research and used titanium which was acquired from the soviet union via a complex array of shell companies. Just something to remember, though I've no doubt the Soviets spent far more time curbing notes and equipment (looking at you Tupolev Tu-144).
I remember this very well. I wouldn't buy Toshiba anything after that, to this day. What I didn't know was that Kongsberg WF was involved. My uncle worked there!
If my sense of scale is right, there's no way a sub prop could be milled on the machine shown at 10:50. The control pendant hanging on the right side also looks more typical of a manual machine. Reverse image search led me to a Russian machine dealer with more pictures; turns out to be a surface grinder. Had no luck finding any images of the MBP-110, or any of the other models mentioned. There are some photos of the BP-110, which is a pretty standard horizontal boring mill. Not sure if there's any relation. A variant with a rotary table and swivel head could cut a prop, but probably not one big enough for a sub. From what I can gather the machines typically used are essentially vertical lathes with an articulated live milling head (ruclips.net/video/Di6fu7F2BxQ/видео.html)
История по сути фейковая. США раздули скандал в 1987 году на пустом месте что бы отвлечь обывателей (избирателей) от краха финансовой системы и обвала фондовых рынков 1987 (мое предположения) помахав и пошумев "советской угрозой"ТМ и заодно прижав к ногтю конкурента в лице Японии.
I was working for the US Navy as an aerospace engineer starting shortly after the Toshiba incident when Toshiba sold very sophisticated machine tools to the Soviet Union. I was working on the S-3 Viking antisubmarine aircraft. This aircraft flew off of aircraft carriers and protected the carrier group of ships by hunting and destroying Soviet submarines when necessary. The Toshiba deal meant that the rather noisy propellers on the Soviet subs suddenly became very quiet over the months and years as newly machined propellers were fitted on to the Soviet subs. This was a big problem for us, as it became much more difficult to detect (by sonar) and then destroy the Soviet subs.
So apparently USSR build their economy after ww2 with lend lease lefovers which were: 400,000 jeeps & trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petrol products 4.5 million tons of food And then stole technology of a first launch satelite to lauch a first satelite and then stole Gagarin to launch him first into space. Bold assumption that country that is right now have the largest fleet of the most advanced nuclear submarines (which they designed and built) can't do stuff on their own. US and west only good at buying out and capitalizing on other people's techologies. Not that good at actually creating them any better than anyone else.
SanDisk is Toshiba. When you need good flash semiconductors, they were an unavoidable supplier for a long time, now spun off as Kioxia, and also they have a long running partnership with Western Digital. Another big Toshiba field used to be power semiconductors. But also in some crucial ways it's not the same company that did this, hasn't been for a while.
I always wondered how the Soviets managed to produce the Akula which was so ahead of it's time - and as always it's STEM technology at the end of the day. Thanks for covering such interesting episodes in recent history!
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
16:22 "The fine for the 17 million dollar sale was a tiny 14k dollars" - there is the saying "A fine is called a fine, because of the sound companies make when receiving one: 'Oh, fine...'"
@@TUXmint1.7 million wouldn’t hurt
"Coffeezilla style investigation" - never though I'd see the day when that phrase would be uttered.
Just as with the Soviets choosing to steal western electronics technology, the downside of copying is crippling your own research and development infrastructure; your scientists and engineers spend time learning old technology and fall further behind new advances. It also makes you vulnerable to being cut off from copying in time of war. Sometimes the shortcuts take longer.
That was Regan's times, he was not a businessman. Another president would sold the rope to hang himself for another "Trump tower". 8 years without technologies and bunch of presidents, lobbyists and businessmen to give it all for money. All they needed is war, there is no reason to spend time and resources on something else.
Reminds me of university exam's days
That's the theme of a previous video of this channel about Soviet computers: They copied IBM's mainframes but when they had a "workable" system they were late to move from mainframes to minicomputers to PCs. The Soviets weren't fighting toe-to-toe with the entire West but with IBM.
@@EduardoEscarez Yes, that's why I mentioned it :)
@@grizwoldphantasia5005 😅
I remember a Soviet engineer not long after the fall of the Soviet Union. He said that the USSR built the worlds largest hydraulic press, the world's largest aircraft, the world's largest dam, and the world's largest microchips.
They used vacuum tubes for many things. This was actually a benefit in some ways. Nuclear EMP proof.
Lol
I just want to say thanks for such interesting videos. I had no idea chips could be so fascinating, and the politics behind them even more so. You have really opened my eyes to what an interesting field this is. Your hard work is very much appreciated.
Hear, hear! ❤
I've thought that chips were fascinating since I was a kid in the 1980s... Probably why I'm an electronics engineer now (we usually call them integrated circuits, or ICs).
Politics, not so interesting to me.
This is why some higher end CNC machines (DMG-Mori NV5000 apparently) have motion sensors inside....
Once moved, you have to call HQ to unlock again, total nightmare for used market, IMO.
Also fun, because LinuxCNC is fully 5axis capable, a cheap computer and maybe $500 for a couple of Mesa cards is all that's needed ;-D
Motion, tilt, and GPS. All battery-backed, and none can be turned off or the control locks out.
What brands of PLC can handle ellipses? For that matter, what is the G code for ellipse?
@@unclejoeoakland PLCs aren't used to run CNC equipment, only as IO expansion, if at all.
And if you weren't afraid of using google, you'd know that it's G2, G3, G8, G9.
Holy s***. I've heard how in USSR it was punishable for workers to discuss politics near the USA made machinery, amusing to see it become reality
@@KOTYAR1 To be fair, it's only on a few machines, mostly as a government thing, and quite arbitrary. You can run a Kern Micro HD inside a flying truck, and arguably it's way more spicy in terms of regulations than an NV5000.
Toshiba got really fucked in the warrantee area because of this. They were a major manufacturer of consumer electronics that were exported to the USA.
When Toshiba got banned from importing to the USA, they lost the ability to supply repair parts to USA retail establishments. They still however had to maintain their warrantees. This meant that whenever something as simple as a fuse went bad, Toshiba had to refund the entire wholesale price if the product was still under warrantee and VCRs broke very easily during that time. I don't know if Toshiba paid to have the refunded merchandise shipped back to Japan or if they were even allowed to. They may have just gotten dumped in the trash.
This just shows how sick and rotten the American system of trade restrictions and embargos is. Thanks to the Great China their time is over. The new century will be one of Chinese trade and not American (trade) wars.
Too bad for them.Hope they enjoyed their $25 million "profit".
@@burtbacarach5034 hypocrisy at it's finest
@@burtbacarach5034 But the British and French got away with their sales and no punishment for them. Hypocrisy.
@@burtbacarach5034 just proving why more are moving away from american hypocrisy of "only we are allowed to sell" protection racket chemes.
Another high quality video. Thank you Mr Asianometry
Indeed. But it was Nixon who was responsible for opening up China. Carter didn't help, but Nixon started it.
Thank you for bringing up historical parallels in the subjects you explore. It is a great contrast to the headline-chasing click-baiting dreck that worms its ways into the explainer/video essay corner of RUclips.
One story I heard about back in the 80's was when the Soviets managed to have a Digital Equipment VAX 11/780 shipped, which at the time was a top-of-the-line minicomputer. They were able to get the order through a bunch of shell companies and the computer, which was the size of a number of large refrigerators, was crated and in transit. However, US Customs was on to it and managed to intercept the shipment in one of the Scandinavian countries, I forgot which. US Customs agents removed the computer from its crate, replaced it with a bunch of concrete blocks, sealed the crate, and sent it on its way. The agents said they would've loved to see the look on faces when the crate was delivered and opened.
Another story had to do with microchips. Chip designers at Digital Equipment wrote on their chips in Russian, viewable under a microscope, "VAX - When you care enough to steal the very best."
I heard a story about the VAX that did get through the customs. The Soviets started to use it, but it quickly run out of disk space. So they did an in-depth investigation of what was going on. It turned out that Western intelligence had added come code to the operating system, to collect data on what was done on the computer. The data was supposed to be periodically sent out. But in the USSR the network was much less developed, and the computer was simply not connected to the Internet. While the routine was unable to communicate with the control center, in the meantime it just kept writing the data into a file. Since this continued for some time, eventually all the space was filled. And that's how it was discovered. Sounds too dumb to be true, but who knows...
So the US Customs was a thief and what were they doing in a Scandinavian country? What right did they have to take another's property?
@@anthonyxuereb792 This is a spy craft - they had the same right as the soviet agents who bought the equipment via shell companies.
@@DigitFalconer Fair enough, thanks
@@anthonyxuereb792 The law that is the subject of this video most likely.
Small note about Kongsberg, "våpenfabrikk" translates to "arms manufacturer", and is a branch of the Kongsberg firm. It is not usually necessary to include the second part, unless you are talking about several branches and want to adress them separately, i.e. "Kongsberg Marine" vs "Kongsberg Defense and Aerospace".
You say Kongsberg Gruppen or Kongsberg Group when you refer to the technology group and their subsidiaries. Kongsberg is a city.
@@foobar6846 Don't be pedantic. Kongsberg might be best known as being a name of a city, but Kongsberg is also the name of many other places and things. Using the name 'Kongsberg' in the context of technology and manufacturing when referring to Kongberg Gruppen or it's relevant subsidiary is fine. It isn't like there are multiple arms manufacturers using the Kongsberg name, so it should confuse none.
A new Asianometry! Just what I needed :)
If we look at the Russian defense industry today, the entire floors at the top factories there are filled with ultra-precision CNC machinery from Germany, Switzerland, Austria. Yesterday's story about the relatively mundane american CNC machines recently delivered to Russia during the war is just the tip of the iceberg.
Yup, If you watch the RUclips channel of the Russian Defense Industry "Combat Approved", they showcase different Russian weapon systems and their manufacturing process, their factories and manufacturing complexes are indeed filled with western equipment from CNC to PCB verification machines.
It always strikes me as a weird double standard that no business in a western nation manufactures without a completely global source of tooling (German, Italian, Chinese, American machines all under one roof) but the second its a non-western country people say its a lack of independence, national capability, copying, or even being directly "enabled" as a puppet state if the VAST majority of machines aren't entirely indigenous (as in design, manufacture and support). And for reference I work quality control for manufacturing these days, so while that doesn't give me any "expertise" to judge design, I can speak with reasonable authority about how quickly the phone call goes overseas if something isn't going as planned.
Welp, the industrial base in post soviet Russia deteriorated heavily. So much infact, a tractor company funded to make 100% homegrown russian tractors couldnt do better than buy disassembled czech tractors and assemble them in their factory, its that bad.
The current cars made at Moskvich car assembly after French cut ties after Putin's aggression on Ukraine, are in fact Chinese cars, disassembled and put together at factory. One can purchase the same car Chinese outside of Russia and lover cost.
I remember when being a young tennager purchasing a small 2.5ccm model motor, which failed to run. After taking it apart and inspecting, I knew why it never built compression. I guess many living Eastern Block had the same experience with products from former USSR.
@@SheepInACart It's not a double standard because western countries don't usually claim to be independent of other (western) countries. We don't see dependency on another country as a major issue. Countries like Russia or China are held to a different standard because they strive to be independent entities, not aligned with the west but in competition, and so we expect their supply chains to be independent of the west as well.
Excellent video as always! What happened with the French company that violated the restrictions first with propeller machines?
Nothing.
The technology in question was also not the propeller CNC machines directly, but rather the lithography equipment to make microelectronics to control them
Speaking about submarines, more recently Thailand had found iteslf in a fix as it's planning to buy subs from China, whose engines are to be supplied by German company MTU, but which is no longer possible as EU is now more strictly enforcing export sanctions (introduced after the _Tian An Men_ incident in 1989) against the engines being sold for use to China (since the engines could be used not only for civilian but also for military applications)
another well researched, well presented and very informative video. thank you for all the work and then sharing.
"The imperialists are so hungry for profits that they will sell us the rope with which to hang themselves."
PRC's CCP listened and followed through with Nixon
clueless.
ESL?
You got the imperialists part right. That’s how you get American Samoans that aren’t US citizens but US nationals.
@@zeitgeistx5239 Guam, Puerto Rico, Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa all need to be independent nations asap.
@@tzenzhongguo So should Tibet.
I remember this well. I studied in the city of Kongsberg 85-88 and we were working on a project to connect the CNC machines at the school to a LAN. The CNC machines was programmed using a paper strip that was fed into the reader. By connecting the reader to the LAN the communication with the CNC was greatly improved. I remember that the Kongsberg company was split into smaller companies after the incident.
Been waiting for a long time for someone to cover this. Thank you Asianomitry
Love your work man. Keep it up!
I have to ask what missile system the US Army cancelled from Toshiba, Japan has very strict export laws on military equipment, even to allied nations
Thanks!
About the Toshiba propeller issue, I am proud to say that in the late 1980s I worked for a major PC and peripherals distributor where I bet my career to terminate carriage of all Toshiba products. I won the argument, so to speak. Inquiries or RFPs from major accounts thus affected were referred to me, where I presented a package of relevant published materials describing the damage to US/western security. This was generally well received. Over the next half decade this cost Toshiba..... well, a lot of sales revenue. Very satisfying. But enough was enough, and today I own a Toshiba laptop.
I have a New in Box old-tech Toshiba rice cooker from the 70s.
Toshiba doesn’t make any new compelling products. Instead of Cloning IBM mainframes, MITI failed to fund basic science investments.
Toyota vehicles are favored by insurgents. (Free advertising). Toshiba is a conglomerate and one arm did something bad. Glad if your laptop choice fits your need.
I’m winTel/Apple/*Nix & retired, but loved Fujitsu SANs.
There isn't anyting particular about Toshiba laptop is there? Last i looked they were mostly Compal machines like many others, basically every brand carries somewhat customised macines made by Taiwanese ODMs. Which is a story in and of itself, since back then i expect Compaq was one of the major benefactors of Toshiba business being shunned. And guess what Taiwanese company they spun off.
@@SianaGearz Wasn't bragging on Toshiba laptops. Client gave me one out of a lot, as a tip/gift. So, it picked me, and we get along. Honestly, it doesn't matter anymore except at the very extremes, does it? The vast middle are all overkill. Cheers.
@@SianaGearz Toshiba branded laptops used be reasonably priced and reliable way BITD. As a conglomerate/Zaibatsu, Toshiba did naughty on the CNC and iirc NEC had input as well.
As a US partner country it was a dumb move that a Toshiba’s Conglomerate’s Branch did something so stupid along with NEC.
So. Toshiba went under then just like Enron did for accounting fraud ?... So basically your decisions to kill their sales forced them to be creative with their accountancy. And this indirectly also led to the 2008 financial crashes.... Lol... God.. everything makes sense if we stopped to think about things. This indirectly boomed a sector of accounting software's to ensure that everything was above board etc. And even now. Same things...
I love it every time you say Check Losovakya.
I was at a conference in 1987 when I heard a Compaq engineer say to a Toshiba rep that selling the propeller tech to the Russians really upset the US. I thought propeller-Toshiba? Toshiba was a laptop leader then...Compaq took over.
IBM was involved in the restrictions placed on Toshiba and NEC. Also the US memory chip manufacturers were involved. It was “get even time”
@pais culebra
OK, there was an undercurrent of fear and loathing of Japan. But you are basically saying that asianometry's post was off base. In spite of a very robust yen which impacted Japanese exports, Japanese computer companies such as Hitachi, Fujitsu/Amdahl and NEC were doing great in the US before the scandal.
@pais culebra The tarifs were imposed 1 month after the US found out about the scandal. Even Electronic News had troubling figuring out the problem the issue with the semiconductor agreement
@@paisculebra I highly doubt it
@pais culebra Had an uncle who was in international business in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Fought against the Japanese in WWII. A quiet, intelligent peaceful man. He would do no business with the Japanese. Times change but could never forget or forgive whatever it was he had seen.
I'm old enough to actually remember this. Would love to see a review of the IP theft of Cisco Systems technologies.
Or Nortel...
(they had to strip the former Nortel head office down to the concrete to eliminate all the bugs)
Was in the U.S. Navy submarine service. When these two companies sold computerized milling equipment to the USSR, the Soviet submarines all of a sudden became a lot more quieter. That put U.S. sailors at a higher risk. I haven't owned a Toshiba product since nor will I in the future. My Toshiba stereo system went flying out my bedroom and into an alley, where it shattered into many pieces.
I served on submarine in the eighties as well. I will never knowingly buy a Toshiba product.
Yet you love Ford dont you...
@@newone-gd9sk Nope, never assume.
Look on the plus side, they put Soviet sailors at a lower risk.
@@Razielchan666 The U.S.S.R. was more of a threat to their own sailors. Had to change out the crews every three year because the had hit the life time dosage of radiation.
Damn, you ALWAYS find interesting stuff!
I enjoyed the way you laid it out so precisely this very important subject. I heard about this a long time ago but wasn't sure what came of it. Thank You job well done! Go America!
Japan's answer to «Plaza Accord».
As egregious as the French sales were, The Toshiba kongsberg scandal was far worse. France did not share a land border with the Soviet Union. Norway did. The Japanese considered some of its islands occupied by the Soviets and now Russia. I Soviet submarines were a constant hazard for Japan. The sale should have been treated as nothing short of treason with the result being industrial sepaku to set an example for others. Unfortunately, living under the American nuclear umbrella and having American bases on countries infantilizes their politics.
Grievance is a poison to the mind and soul and destroys the body politic. We are seeing what it does in America now.
Yet, somehow we still create and build greatness. Greatness that is co-opted and stolen by the obviously lazy and less able.
for Japan, non of those actually matter because they have already surrender all their sovereignty to the US. The best they can hope for is somehow the US get into conflict with another super power and they'd be free from it.
Was there any consequence on the French company for selling the similar machine? How come both company selling similar machines but only the Japanese got blame ?
because japan is dog in American eyes
They were put on trial in Luxembourg, see the Oct. 1987 NY Times article "FRENCH LINKED TO SOVIET SALE" (I'd post a link but RUclips seems to delete them). The French company involved did not sell a propeller CNC milling machine, they sold American-made lithography equipment to make microelectronics to control said CNC machines.
because they can never on the same level with us white
Not sure. A French company stopped advanced optics to RUF after the invasion.
What about the one UK, sale to China?
I remember when this story broke. It was quite the scandal. This allowed the Soviet subs to run quieter. Before this the joke was that all you needed to hear a Soviet sub was to stick your ear to the pressure hull of your ship.
I bought myself and my father a Toshiba CD player just prior to the espionage story came out. They still work. Soon, those CD players disappeared from the market.
The American's developed and fielded the first skewback propeller back in 1960 with the Launch of the ill fated Thresher. It was a 7 bladed scimitar shaped propeller that lower cavitation. Meanwhile the soviets fielded all sorts of propellers from five bladed, to counter rotating four bladed propellers to try to reduce noise. After they received their 9 axis milling machines. The latest soviet submarine the Akula was under construction and fitted with these 7 bladed skewback propellers blades the same year and blew away the Americans with how quiet she was compared to previous classes. They said they didn't think the Russians could build a boat this quiet for 20 more years. Furthermore previously built Russian submarines began to be outfitted with the propeller design making them quieter too. Toshiba made the world a less safe place in 1983 and sadly today as well as many of the Submarines constructed to carry nuclear missiles in the soviets era are the backbone of their ballistic missile fleet today. Also Walker was an idiot that had 50k gambling's debts. The worst part is the Russians paid him only 30k to betray his country.
Right on. If Toshiba was concerned that others were breaking the rules, they should have revealed that.. not broken the rules themselves because other countries were making profits selling forbidden items.
Please remember who dropped TWO atomic bombs on civilians
@@lahma69 that's the golden rule in this business tbh. Toshiba made a dumb move that probably lost them a ton of sales
@Anthony Xuereb While I can't deny the horror of those atomic bomb droppings, it wasn't the US that started the conflict. The atomic bomb was considered a new weapon in late 1945 and nothing else, it was only later that America would realize the horrors of the use of the bomb and declare that it would never be used unless it's use was first commited against it or its allies. Unlike soviets whose plans often had the intention of using it against non nuclear NATO nations during a conflict. Or Russia today's plans to use it if Russian territory is taken even conventially.
Japan was a nation that committed many evils against its enemies and civilians back in the day from rape, genocide to toture. It even declared their would be no civilians on Japan and would fight to every last man, woman, and child. It needed to be stopped, and I am thankful it was and not only that by America. Despite the horrors of the Bomb, the US was set on not killing civilians, refusing to attack the Japanese railway as without that, millions would starve. As they had already lost their shipping.
Japan today has my respect and is very different from what it was. It realized that the US wouldn't treat it as Japan would have America in defeat. Instead, it rebuilt it into what became the second strongest economy in the world. The soviets abused their war aquisitions, with every previous warsaw pact nation hating them. The US guided them for a while, but both Germany and Japan are strong, independent nations and allies.
What Toshiba did was for greed, nothing more.
@@anthonyxuereb792 Please don't google Unit 731! Please don't google how a country loses its sovereignty! Please don't google the amount of war crimes they committed because they thought they could get away with it! Please don't google how they were training civilians to murder people while they slept! USA aRe tHe BaD gUyS!
The quality of these videos are always outstanding.
Like many international organizations (UN such as UNCLOS violations, WTO on technology theft, etc.), it seems like these organizations don't have a good way to police themselves and punish violators. At best complaints are raised but no one suffers from the violation of the rules agreed to.
It's really ironic... If this had been stopped as it should, Russia wouldn't be able to produce anything to modern standards of tolerance and efficiency, leaving them dead in the water... Seems to me though, that this "drip-feed" of manufacturing equipment, slows down Russian manufacturing enough for them to be a threat that requires a strong and profitable western military industry complex, but still weak enough that they can't take on the west head on, AND makes bank for western companies from sales of the equipment.
Toshiba was the Huawei and Astom. Japanese politicians were too corrupt and too weak. NHK ran a documentary programme about Japan was told to stop their OS that was way ahead of DOS.
"In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most.
No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores.
No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it.
This universal truth applies to all systems.
Energy, like time, flows from past to future".
I love this. I am going to say this all day long tomorrow.
ITAR violation penalties should be extreme as a deterrence to protect us all from our enemies and potential enemies.
Thanks, I remember the Toshiba scandal from the late 80's, but this gave a lot of background information that I wasn't aware of.
I would give anything to see you make a video on China's high speed rail network
You mean how CCP steal the high speed railway technology from Japan?
Those trains must be soo cool! All the payed, pro-china shills LOVE them!
Japanese tech rebranded
@@engineeriumm Yeah, aware but it seems like they spent too much building their HSL network and they overbuilt, just need him to cover the economics and the current state of it
@@engineeriumm Japan didn't build any of their stuff in China
I thought this was one of you most interesting videos. Thanks for posting.
I just want to remark how "Coffeezilla style" was thrown in there. He really has become the standard for investigative journalism on this site.
It ages the videos a bit too much. No reason to think anyone will know who that is in a year.
_a demonstration that this was no ploy to win sales for American businesses_ ... or maybe a demonstration that that is exactly what it is: _He also pointed out that the lithography ban directly benefitted American semiconductor equipment makers of items not covered by the bans_
Yikes, my cousin worked at Kongsberg Automotive i Sweden, but was stationed in Japan from 2017-2019. I'm gonna ask if he's heard about this 😏
Just in time with news that Haas allegedly sent their products to Russia
I don't get why USSR couldn't build their own. They had the tools to build the tools. And regardless of what one thinks of the USSR or the quality of their products, they had no shortage of brilliant engineers. If you can build a submarine, you can build a damn CNC milling machine.
It is an excellent question.
USSR did build some unique metalworking machines -- there is a famous example of an extra large mill which Japan bought from the USSR. Soviets also originated some important technologies, like EDM machining -- but were never able to commercialize it as successfully as western vendors did.
I think there are many reasons, but the most basic one is that nobody really builds anything on their own. Stuff gets built within an ecosystem of whatever components and know-how is available. And it is prohibitively expensive to grow such advanced ecosystems in isolation, unless there is a real market for them.
For example, US military have spent serious money on development of image sensors, and they had respectable results. But when image sensors became essential for a consumer market, the amount of investment became so much larger, that the progress accelerated enormously, and now every smartphone has inexpensive cameras with such performance which a decade ago no secret agency could afford.
So, USSR was simply missing too many parts -- power electronics, precision bearings, drives, etc. They could not import them, and bootstrapping the whole CNC industry in a bubble was beyond their means. There were probably other important structural reasons, but that would require a dissertation to cover.
It is not the engineers. It is the leaders who screwed up. Not saying western political leaders are smarter but they know to get out of the way from consumer-business-research relation enough to let private development breathing space.
Soviet censors and processors were far behind the west
But can they make a better one than what they can steal cost-effectively? Really they did a mix of both and stuck with whatever worked best. It takes an ungodly amount of resources to develop and manufacture top of the line microchips, something the soviets had a hard time justifying. Obviously you need those for a good CNC machine and military equipment. They took the approach of making "good enough" chips instead of trying to take the technological lead. Who knows where else they would have had to cut corners if they put all their resources into microchip R&D
Asianometry did a video on soviet computers you may want to check out that covers the whys in part. But another reason is the lack of precision, computerized machining necessary to build these things among others. There is also the same reasons why the Russians cannot replace Western technology with indigneous solutions on their private markets and why they expect all the BMWs, Audis and Mercedes cars on their roads to blow out eventually. They cant source the parts and their manufacturing is not sophisticated enough for production of indigneous, adequate replacement parts.
Unregulated capitalism proves it will risk giving an enemy a figurative gun to make a buck. Companies in large don't give a shit what happens with their product as long as its profitable. This whole "not my problem" attitude is why we need so much regulation.
HAAS, an industrial machine company in the US was just caught selling restricted CNC machines to Russia. They will be in a world of hurt!
I worked for Jan and Hiroko Mowill at OPRA. The closure of Kongsberg was a big blow against the state owned oil and gas industry of Norway.
Today it is HAAS skirting restrictions
Maybe Gene wants to have another stay in jail.
If we compare CNC machines to cars, Haas would be an equivalent of a Chevrolet Cavalier. Russians mostly buy expensive German machines which are like a high-end Mercedes.
One should certainly investigate why American machines are still being delivered to Russia, but focusing on Haas as something exceptional is barking the wrong tree.
@@cogoid - Keep in mind the accusations came from the Ukrainian government (which is almost as dishonest as the Russian government) and they were vehemently denied by Haas. But to your point about German machines: they may be “German” machines, but there’s almost certainly a lot of American tech in those things.
@@ClockworksOfGL It is quite possible that Haas machines were delivered to Russia in October 2022, as the story alleged. But I also think Haas is being factual in their rebuttal -- if they say that no machines have left from their factory in California for Russia once the sanctions were imposed, it is probably so. Considering how long it takes for a distributor to deliver the machines, both facts can be true simultaneously without contradiction.
I remember when Nixon opened up China they were going to build 707s under license. But they didn't really care about the 707. What they were interested in was the inertial navigation systems.
"In fact, it was President Nixon's visit to China in 1971 that inspired the sale of Boeing 707s to China. "
"Working in secret, Chinese aircraft engineers have taken one of the Boeing 707 jetliners bought by China in 1972 and built their own copy of it" (Including it's inertial navigation system.....which could be used on their ICBM program.
Airbus also benefits from the experience of Russian experts and has a design center in Moscow. Founded in 2003 as a joint company by Airbus, AFK Sistema and KASKOL Group, the Aiurbus Engineering Center in Russia (ECAR) was the first to be established by the company outside the EU.
Most people don’t know that a lot of the Japanese companies that makes cars and electronics today were building military ships, submarines, aircraft…etc for the Japanese army before defeat. If Japan starts to build their own military again we will have a superpower in no time.
There really isn't much of Japanese electronics industry left, not like it used to be. Engineering subcontracted to Taiwan, manufacturing anywhere abroad. I don't know if they can rebuild it like that. Automotive and heavy are holding on. Foremost if they were to become a military power like that, it would be weak to sanctions if they were to choose the wrong enemy, not necessarily threatening. But i do expect that militarization of Japan is potentially starting soon, in order to have defensive capability against China.
The chain is only as strong as its weakest link. This is especially problematic when your technology is pretty much alone at the top of the world, and your enemies are prepared to go to great lengths and pay any price to get their hands on it.
Coffeezilla style investigation 😅
the post war relationship was bizarre in its own right, the USSR tried to buy IBM mainframes from the US and almost succeeded and the british did trade 2nd generation jet engines with them
I thought it was 1st gen only? Even at that, Russia was our ally.
"Coffezilla investigation" that was a nice one
Gotta love Toshiba saying that COCOM was dumped on them by the US even though they knew that the Japanese government literally asked to join it 🤣🤣🤣
This an excellent presentation. Great job!
The Walker spy ringleaders should've been drawn and quartered.
Remembering this breaking the news i 87. I was 7. My father explained it as having sold silent electric motors to the CCCP. Makes me wonder if initial coverage was not accurate, and if so, was it on purpose?
I remember the reports at the time. They were definitely about machines for making propellers for subs.
So the machines the French sold weren't the cause , only the machines the Japanese sold?
well done! please do an episode on OKUMA cnc they are a vertically integrated juggernaut, the apple of the CNC world. TY
Having grown up learning to "duck & cover" before the Nixon administration gave up on the concept of protecting the civilian population from nuclear attack by signing the ABM Treaty embracing the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction, when news broke that Toshiba had assisted the Soviet Union learning to evade our boomer subs I swore I'd never buy anything they made ever again, and still avoid it where possible. I've found a few Toshiba hard drives in various computers I've owned, but I still won't buy anything branded by them. I love Holland and have visited their country five times, but if they fight a ban on shipment of 5nm lithography machines to Chynah, I'll boycott Dutch products for the rest of my life, short though that may be. Every dime hurts.
But i bet you love Ford dont you...
@@newone-gd9sk I've never owned one. I've purchase five Toyotas new, and driven them until the wheels fell off.
As a former submariner that served in the 90s, I will not even consider buying a Toshiba product to this day. I don't care if it's the best, or the cheapest, or both.
Thanks for your service!
Cope
I think that you will find that it was the British Labour government of the day that sold the Rolls Royce engine design to their mates in the Soviet union.
Nice timing, i just read about this !
...and I never bought another Toshiba product again. Not as an individual, nor as approver for a major U.S. corporation.
I had a boss who had been a US submarine officer, and 20 years later, he still refused to have any Toshiba products in his house.
B.s. open up your hifi, microwave, dvd player etc etc.... im pretty sure there are several toshiba chips inside
I had a Toshiba laptop as a kid and liked it. No clue behind the drama of that company at the time
Probably worse - Chinese and Korean electronics inside lol. So tiring.
I feel like deglobalization is coming soon.
@@grizwoldphantasia5005 Ironically, US Special Forces were for a long time equipped with Toshiba sub-notebook computers.
BAD Toshiba, very bad!
Do you cover all of Asia or just the Orient?
He covers the whole world actually. All of it. He has an inside perspective on Taiwan.
@@SianaGearz Thank you. Strange title for the channel then.
From the video, I didn't sense any proof that Toshiba's machine was the main source for improvements to the Russian propeller as many other European countries also supplied various equipment and technologies. The main enabler would be the software design tools as no matter how sophisticated the milling equipment, the result only be as better if the design was more advanced. It may be picking on Toshiba because US biased for Europe.
You don't think Soviet Union has top notch engineers and mathematicians who can throw together a program that spits out specialised G-code, or even hand write G-code with logarithmic rulers and punch cards? I saw the tail end of that era first hand there. Things they could develop on paper were well far ahead of things they could actually manufacture. Getting from quantity of 1 to quantity of 100 or more was a problem. I don't have any particular rebuttal to your conjecture that they would have achieved this result with French made machines, i don't know about that. But by all reason you do need more axis for the surface quality, not suitable for simple copy milling.
Just a little FYI:
Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk is not a Trading Company
It is a weapons manufacturer.
One thing is wrong: There are no international trade restrictions, but american imposed trade restrictions. Giving a shit about COCOM, was a brave and admirable attitude of the japanaese industry and government.
Yeah it is very strange how the US have always traded with countries that were considered mortal enemies shortly before or at the moment of trade.
Great narration, unbiased and informative.
Love your fair and balanced approach ...
Frankly I don't see why anybody should pay attention to what the US Government wants. Not like they have a squeaky clean reputation. Rather, they make the CCCP look like nice guys,
High quality video as usual
RnD = Research and Development
RmB = Research More Burglary
At 2:51 you said World War 1 but the caption says World War 2
Great Video, thank you 👍👍
Of course the Americans stealthily acquired assets from the Soviets as well. I'm particularly thinking of the SR-71, which incorporated publically available soviet radar research and used titanium which was acquired from the soviet union via a complex array of shell companies. Just something to remember, though I've no doubt the Soviets spent far more time curbing notes and equipment (looking at you Tupolev Tu-144).
The Lenin quote hit hard.
I remember this very well. I wouldn't buy Toshiba anything after that, to this day. What I didn't know was that Kongsberg WF was involved. My uncle worked there!
"Investigations". Now we have to pretend we didnt know about it....
Kelly Ann Conway, in 1987, says, "the GOP can't do worse," LOL! Nice. (15:17)
If my sense of scale is right, there's no way a sub prop could be milled on the machine shown at 10:50. The control pendant hanging on the right side also looks more typical of a manual machine. Reverse image search led me to a Russian machine dealer with more pictures; turns out to be a surface grinder.
Had no luck finding any images of the MBP-110, or any of the other models mentioned. There are some photos of the BP-110, which is a pretty standard horizontal boring mill. Not sure if there's any relation. A variant with a rotary table and swivel head could cut a prop, but probably not one big enough for a sub.
From what I can gather the machines typically used are essentially vertical lathes with an articulated live milling head (ruclips.net/video/Di6fu7F2BxQ/видео.html)
История по сути фейковая. США раздули скандал в 1987 году на пустом месте что бы отвлечь обывателей (избирателей) от краха финансовой системы и обвала фондовых рынков 1987 (мое предположения) помахав и пошумев "советской угрозой"ТМ и заодно прижав к ногтю конкурента в лице Японии.
Always interesting to let them steal your designs that have one or more catastrophic flaws.
@17:41 Shout out to Coffeezilla. ❤ Respect to Asianometry. That was so cool bro.
what happened to Forest Line anyway?
This was super interesting. Ty.
I was working for the US Navy as an aerospace engineer starting shortly after the Toshiba incident when Toshiba sold very sophisticated machine tools to the Soviet Union. I was working on the S-3 Viking antisubmarine aircraft. This aircraft flew off of aircraft carriers and protected the carrier group of ships by hunting and destroying Soviet submarines when necessary. The Toshiba deal meant that the rather noisy propellers on the Soviet subs suddenly became very quiet over the months and years as newly machined propellers were fitted on to the Soviet subs. This was a big problem for us, as it became much more difficult to detect (by sonar) and then destroy the Soviet subs.
6:42 is that the old Canadian Flag 😳😮🫢🤔🫣
So apparently USSR build their economy after ww2 with lend lease lefovers which were:
400,000 jeeps & trucks
14,000 airplanes
8,000 tractors
13,000 tanks
1.5 million blankets
15 million pairs of army boots
107,000 tons of cotton
2.7 million tons of petrol products
4.5 million tons of food
And then stole technology of a first launch satelite to lauch a first satelite and then stole Gagarin to launch him first into space.
Bold assumption that country that is right now have the largest fleet of the most advanced nuclear submarines (which they designed and built) can't do stuff on their own.
US and west only good at buying out and capitalizing on other people's techologies. Not that good at actually creating them any better than anyone else.
I was in the naval reserve at that time. I'm 64 now and haven't knowingly given Toshiba a dime's worth of business since.
SanDisk is Toshiba. When you need good flash semiconductors, they were an unavoidable supplier for a long time, now spun off as Kioxia, and also they have a long running partnership with Western Digital. Another big Toshiba field used to be power semiconductors. But also in some crucial ways it's not the same company that did this, hasn't been for a while.
I hear you, selling CNC tech designed in the US to the Russians so that they could make quieter submarine screws was a horrible thing.
Nice nod to Coffeezilla.
10:20 Toshiba
4:45 marshall plan true intentions
12:35 disadvantage for Japan
14:45 whistleblower
Thank you.
I always wondered how the Soviets managed to produce the Akula which was so ahead of it's time - and as always it's STEM technology at the end of the day. Thanks for covering such interesting episodes in recent history!