This was incredibly valuable. It is infuriating how badly this is being covered by mainstream media outlets. Thank you Fiona, Emma, Sharron and Mara for your clarity, insights and rigour. I hope it makes a difference.
It is a pretty complex topic tbf but yeah, the mainstream media generally seems content to spend about 5 minutes researching and then saying "well, it's swyer syndrome, that's what it is, women with XY Chromosomes exist in the form of people with swyer syndrome, that's the answer". They don't do any further digging that would make it clear that Swyer syndrome is not a legitimate explanation for why an apparently female athlete appears to have a male physique. It's always just enough journalistic investigation to reach the point where their bias is confirmed then "well, that's all we needed to know".
My god the amount of grief I've had today because of a comment I made..... Its also caused a family row... I've posted this now on my fb and left it...its just unfair and I'm sticking to it..being gaslit though...
This discussion wasn’t much better than mainstream media. Emma dogmatically asserts that there’s only male and female, and everybody is one of them. But what’s the justification? She gave none. And what’s to stop Mother Nature from producing a baby with a vagina, no penis, no testicles, but internal testes? Or a penis with ovaries? Mother Nature does whatever she wants, but she doesn’t give us a vocabulary and classificatory scheme and language for describing each every anomaly from what is ‘typical’. WE make that up. And we can make up a scheme that includes the baby described above as ‘intersex’ and consider that a third sex. We can make up a scheme that says that if you have a Y chromosome, that is sufficient for being male, so you’re a male just by virtue of having a Y chromosome, regardless of phenotype. Or we can have a scheme that says (as almost all cultures have done throughout history), if you’re born without a penis and without testicles, then you are girl, no matter what your DNA is, no matter what’s chromosomes you have. So consider these three rival classificatory schemes. Is there anything that COMPELS one and only scheme and vocabulary to be used at the expense of all the others? I don’t see the argument for that. Instead, what we get is chest-pounding and question-begging that dogmatically asserts what sex is without proving it. Then we get a long-winded and irrelevant discussion about testosterone. I do not dispute that testosterone plays a huge role in development, esp strength, and can impact athletic performance. But that has nothing to do with the primary and sole issue of - what is a woman. That question requires consideration of the rival schemes and standards for classifying a baby or adult as a female/girl/woman. And we got no justification for why one scheme is right and the others are wrong (instead of neutrally saying that other schemes are merely different). The rest of the discussion on testosterone and sports and fairness is totally irrelevant and a red-herring to this primary discussion of sex classification and which standard to use. As such, this discussion gets a C- for failing to deal with the core issue. See me after class.
These ladies are at the top of their game. Mara and Sharon - legends. Fiona and Emma fast becoming two of my favourite commentators along with Helen J and Kathleen S. thanks for this excellent resource
Getting girls and women to participate in sports is already a challenge! If this issue isn’t resolved it’s likely to have an impact on participation down the line! I see this as having an impact on health outcomes for girls and women.
You are all amazing and incredible at explaining these matters in a simple and clear way. I am a gay man who has lost most of his friends because I am a realist not an idealogue. For so long I struggled with the language I needed to fight my case when discussing these issues but all you wonderful women have given me my voice. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you do.
I’m against the cheek swab. Why not just bring back genital inspection ? That’s the oldest way of determining sex and how almost all people determined sex throughout history. By that test, most likely Khelif would pass as female and there’d be no fuss about it.
@@RC-qf3mpDid you watch the video? For 46XY DSDs, that is a most inaccurate way to determine sex. Males with one of these DSDs do not develop a penis, their testes remain inside the pelvic cavity, but still produce normal male amounts of testosterone. This leaves the greater power, skeletomuscular strength and cardiovascular output of a male in female sports, to the detriment of female safety, and to fairness.
@@Bellas1717 you are presupposing the truth of the standard of genotype. I’m questioning genotype as the standard. Phenotype is also biological and objective and can be used as a standard and HAS been used for all of human history until chromosomes were discovered. You’re not even thinking about the question I’m posing. Where you come from, what do they call a baby born without a penis? Where I come from, that’s a ‘girl’. And the idea isn’t that we’re inferring the chromosomes - it’s that we don’t care. We care about the physical body characteristics. The body is what is male or female, not the chromosomes. You’ve got the cart before the horse. Chromosomes are science are great for showing what causes what to develop, typically, and even atypically as we get better at figuring out what causes DSDs. But the science has NOTHING TO SAY about whether the genotype standard SHOULD be used for our classifying people as ‘women’ or whether a phenotype standard should be used. It’s a meta-science question - it’s just beyond what science does.
@@RC-qf3mp We classified the solar system as geocentric before it was discovered that it was heliocentric. People thought that the Bubonic Plague was caused by the position of the planets, until bacteria were discovered. So what we did before we discovered chromosomes is replaced by the far more exact science of DNA analysis. Phenotype is useful for taxonomic classification, it can be used often for sex determination, but not always, and often not in the case of 5-ARD. Children were often misassigned as female in the past. In today's world, ambiguous genitalia would quickly lead to genetic testing, if the parents hadn’t already had that during the pregnancy. The child would then be accurately assigned according to their biological sex. Sorry, you’re a little behind the science, not cart before the horse at all. It is importantly for the safety of, and for fairness to female athletes. That’s what is being discussed, not the everyday person where gender choices are a more personal and private matter. I have a degree in human genetics and years in the field, so I actually do know what I’m talking about.
@@Bellas1717 you are confusing empirically false beliefs and confusions people had with different standards/concepts of what something is. A better example of the debate would be whether Pluto is a planet or not. Nobody disputes Pluto exists, and it orbits the sun a certain way, and has a certain shape and size and mass. But scientists have different competing standards of what ‘planet’ means and so when that standard is applied to Pluto, you get different results. Pluto is anomalous among planet-like objects and scientists can reasonably classify as a planet or not. There’s gray area in nature. Similarly, when does human life begin? Most biologists would say human life begins at conception when the unique DNA is formed of a new organism from both the mother and father’s DNA. But does this mean abortion is necessarily the murder of an innocent human being? Do you think using the morning after pill is murder? OR…is it reasonable to think that human life begins at birth? Which standard gets used is? There’s gray area and it’s a matter of line-drawing. Back to DSDs - there are multiple criteria that could be used to classify anomalous sex conditions. The biology doesn’t compel any ONE standard uniquely. But history and tradition have their own standard, and that’s apparent by looking at newborn baby between the legs. It’s not wrong, just different, and there’s no authoritative answer from the high and mighty biologist. And for the same reason, we don’t have biologists determining abortion policy.
Bring back the simple, single cheek swab for eligibility to the female competition. Its a necessity for safety and fairness, but also dignity and sportsmanship. The current circus is utterly undignified.
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation, in the long term, is doing a huge disservice to their reputation of being able to report fairly, with scientific clarity, and free from a ideological viewpoint. Having been a lifelong consumer of the ABC, I am so surprised how easy it has been to lose journalism as a real investigative, rational and independent source of information.
Thanks for this. So tired of reporters not bothering to find out, or mis-reporting, then saying that a lack of knowledge is some kind of defence as they try to wait out the competition and whistle rather than advocating for a 1 minute test... that the privacy of a test result in this sport is somehow the biggest issue, rather than the health, safety and fairness of the competition.
Exactly I think this is exactly why Imane Khelif filed a "complaint" with French prosecutors. We all know that such legal action will probably never go anywhere, it's just a misdirection and an opportunity for the media to focus on the "story" that Khelif is trying to sue two well-known celebrities so that they can ignore the actual issues that created this situation in the first place.
Absolutely fascinating piece, Thankyou. I’ll be forwarding this to as many people as I can. It’s maddening to hear journalists/reporters referring to these people as “she” and having activist interviewees always spouting their usual ideology driven responses. The BBC should have these ladies on, and every politician, sports body etc should be made to watch this and then have them on panels when policies are being written. Brilliant work . ❤ Sex Matters
The problem is everybody has an ‘ideology’, ie., a conceptual scheme and vocabulary for thinking and talking about this issue. And Emma is no different - she dogmatically asserts at the beginning that there are only two sexes. Really? Why doesn’t she prove it or justify it? Why can’t intersex conditions be a third-sex and just leave it at that? Mother Nature doesn’t care how we carve her up - it seems like arbitrary line-drawing at what counts as male or female when it comes to at least some DSDs. But no, Emma is emphatic and dogmatic. That’s not science. Science needs empirical evidence and logical argumentation. But we get none on the core issue - which is why use HER ideology/classificatory scheme instead of competing schemes, such as the ordinary one that cultures and indigenous peoples have been using since forever - namely, the genital inspection test. If you’re born without a penis and without testicles, you’re a girl - period. That’s the standard. Doesn’t matter if you have a Y chromosome or internal testes. What’s wrong with that? I get it, such people can produce large amounts of testosterone. And so what if they do? Surely, being male or female isn’t a matter of testosterone, although no doubt testosterone tends to be produced in much higher quantities in typical males than in typical females. But we aren’t talking about what’s ‘typical’, we’re talking about exceptional, anomalous cases, and science is notoriously bad at classifying them. It’s just not what science cares about - science cares about patterns, laws of nature, regularities, causation. It’s generally arbitrary line-drawing how to classify such things in other organisms. The only reason why people care here is because there’s a lot at stake for sports and policy. But that doesn’t change the general deficiency science has in making such arbitrary classifications. And it’s proven arbitrary by the lack of justification from Emma to defend her view against rival standards. She begs the question and uses circular reasoning whenever the issue comes up. She’s as much entrenched in her ideology as anybody else. She’s preaching to a choir, but since you are devotee in the choir, you aren’t calling her out on it. But i am.
@@RC-qf3mp a typical response from someone who is in denial of truth. “Intersex” people are not a third sex. They are people whose genitalia have not developed correctly and have possibly been incorrectly recorded as male or female at birth. They are still either male or female and for medical reasons it’s vital they are classified correctly. They may chose to live differently to XX or XY but due to the biological differences between the two sexes it’s important they know which category they belong to. (Blood volume, size of vital organs etc) In order for Dr Hilton to explain the entire science and complicated genetics and biology , she would, I imagine need days or more. This session was not for that purpose . It was to discuss and dispel some of the myths around these two boxers, who went in to a ring to complete against women. They failed a sex test run by the IBA amd that’s why they were banned. If you agree with your own argument, then potentially you’re denying a person with a dsd proper medical care because you’re disregarding their genetics and biology. Not a good idea if they’re going for a kidney transplant or about to donate or receive blood given that it’s different for the TWO sexes 🤷🏻♀️
You’re not calling anyone out. Please prove what the other biological sexes are, except for male and female. I’m not asking you about birth defects or disorders. Please educate me on the other functioning sex gametes found in “other” sexes. Where is this species?
The real shocker is at about 33 minutes, when Fiona reveals that the Algerian XY boxer in the female category did training at a camp where he was halted from sparring with 2 female boxers. He then trained with a male in the next lower weight category. Astonishing~
It is becoming so difficult to find factual scientific medical explanation of what is happening and a clear explanation on how this affects female sport. Thank you.
As Boghossian, Pluckrose and Lindsay pointed out five years ago, the peer review process is broken. It's merely idea laundering now. 50% of psychology studies cannot be replicated.
This wasn’t a “factual scientific medical explanation”. It was thoroughly biased and used circular arguments that presuppose a definition of male and female without articulating what that definition is, without justifying it and, most importantly, without showing what’s wrong with rival conceptions of male/female, esp the common sense one - that a female is born without a penis and without testicles. Doesn’t matter if the little girl has a Y chromosome or internal testes. By that standard, she’s still a girl. What’s wrong with that? Instead of argument, we get chest-pounding choir preaching. And you are in the choir, so you don’t complain about it or even notice. But this isn’t a high level intellectual debate - it was one-sided ideological ranting.
Thank you all for this briefing. Our ABC public broadcaster in Australian did a very inadequate piece on this last night. Not one mention of DSDs or the possibility of the boxers having been through male puberty. Talked about the 'Russia' connection. Said the testing that was done had been discredited. Basically just 'be kind' and how dare women ask questions. All must be sore losers and spoil sports. Our media here is completely incurious to the point of negligence. Infuriating!
Total respect to you and Sex Matters. Is there any chance you will protest the gold medal fights in Paris? I wish I was there because I'm hoping some women will jump in that ring and stop the fight!! We need a real protest action and prevent those male cheaters from taking the gold. Can someone please get back to me on this? Thank you
The measure of what a woman is just keeps changing according to every individual they want to accommodate - it's behaviours, no it's clothes, no, it's what you feel, no, it's whatever doesn't hurt a man's feelings, no, it's your level of testosterone, no, it's which side of the shop you buy from, no, its your passport.... Every time one of the measures they used last week doesn't let a man into a place he wants to be.
True, the gender ideology is absurd. But Emma keeps on saying ‘male advantage’ or ‘male puberty’ or ‘masculinizing’ without ever defining what standard of male and female she’s using. She asserts, dogmatically, that there is nothing inbetween male and female, and doesn’t back it up with any facts or argument. Why can’t nature just mutate into existence something that resists are arbitrary standards of male/female? It seems various DSDs do just that, and it’s not clear what is so authoritative about the classification of DSDs she is using. Why can’t some of the DSDs that Emma considers to be ‘male’ be considered ‘female’ instead? What measure is she using and what’s the support for it? Instead, Emma goes back and forth between science and policy considerations about ‘fairness’ and ‘male advantage’ that have nothing to do with the core issue of whether any particular individual with a peculiar DSD is actually male or female and WHY. I don’t believe in any one scientific classification anymore than I believe in the Bible. I want to see the arguments and research myself. And there are various classifications that can be used - a simple one is genital inspection, which is what was original used in the Olympics and for 99.99% of human history.
Thank you. A lot of people who have been following this are aware of these issues but thank you so much for putting it all so directly & succinctly. Hopefully the media will be using this as a useful resource! Will be sharing far & wide.
I remember watching the Olympics as a young child in the 70s and even then could see the German athletes competing in the female category had male characteristics. Even children have the ability to recognise female and male differences. I love sports and I have always loved competition but I have also known my entire life that major/international sporting competitions are corrupt and unfair. As long as women are not involved from the top down, female athletes will be marginalised, as human females - of all ethnicities - are marginalised in the rest of society.
Yes, in exactly the same way as women are passed over in every other sphere of life if they are not represented, in numbers, at all levels of those other spheres.
You probably saw women athletes from East Germany and some other eastern countries who were routinely doped and fed hormones without really telling them, with „amazing“ results. I remember some trials after the wall came down. Some of the women athletes filed a law suit as their bodies had gotten permanently damaged by getting heavy doses of testosterone
Excellent discussion. The commentary around this issue has been almost universally disgraceful and there is no good reason why. This is a simple question around a set of facts that could be easily settled. That the IOC and media has gone to such huge effort to obfuscate the issue is astonishing. How can any good faith observer not conclude that there is an agenda at play within the IOC.
Males, with or with out a DSD, belong in the male category. If the DSD the male athlete has forecloses him from being competitive with other males the response should be too bad. The female category is not their consolation category.
Sure, but what’s a ‘male’, what’s a ‘female’? There are rival standards of what counts as ‘female’, and i haven’t seen anything in the biology or this lecture that compels one standard over the other. The main alternative is that a baby born without a penis and without testicles is a female, a girl - regardless of chromosomes and internal testes. Why is one standard right and the other wrong? Looks totally arbitrary which standard gets used.
It's hilarious to see the "assigned at birth" crowd now try to argue that the sex the men were observed as at birth is the one they have to stick to. 🤣
Well, we’ve tried to tell them for years that people with DSDs have nothing to do with trans-identifying people, and I hope now they understand the difference. I don’t think they do, however.
Sharon is right; women are not vocal enough, not able to stand up, for fear of cancellation. Women need to sit in silent protest around the world outside rec centres, track centres !!!
Wonderful video. Sharron’s opening remarks were so powerful and succinct. It’s all about common sense, truth, and fairness, and we’re getting the exact opposite of all 3.
Such an informative piece. Thank you very much. When you discover that there are large sums of money to be had, it's not surprising that there is corruption. And I really appreciate Sharron's point about the IOC ignoring doping for TWENTY YEARS. And the IOC has the audacity to say that the IBA is discredited. I also like the answer to the point that Khelif has been beaten by women in his career. It's because he's just an average MALE boxer competing against elite women.
Thank goodness there are brilliant women like all of you fighting to save women's sports. It is appalling that women are having to spend their precious time doing this, but here we are.
Well, if Khelif is a woman, then women’s sports is doing just fine. The problem is, there’s a debate on who is and isn’t a woman, what the standard is for determining who’s a woman, and what rival standards are wrong.
I feel as if I have woken up in A Twilight Zone episode. Does the IOC not have a duty of care for its female athletes? Cannot the women athletes sue them for lack of care?
Thank you so much for this. it's very educational. I still can't believe what IOC allowed to happen in Women's boxing in Paris 2024. this lunacy has to stop.
I run a female pelvic & back pain clinic and worked in sport medicine and rehabilitation for almost 30 years - and I will directly discriminate - you either have a female pelvis or a male one - simple - I deal with females only. When listening to so called "journalists" my blood boils - ignorance personified as it is with many sporting associations. I have enjoyed and appreciated listening to this today as it has reinforced my knowledge and boosted my morale that I am right in what I am doing and saying. I won't be deterred, I won't lie and I will live in the realms of reality - "First Do No Harm"
Yea, funny, how some try to discuss away biology, I remember a speech about biology in humans and sex differences, with women it was somewhat depressing that a lot of the angles and static are less effective because the pelvis has to accommodate a baby and its passage into the world, so, yea, we rather suffer from iffy hipps and really need to do our pelvic floor exercises
@@rosablume4346 the female anatomy & our hormone system has a huge interplay with our wellbeing - it's truly fascinating and is more complex for females on every level than a man. Pelvic floor exercises are a good start but looking after your hormones by eating and exercising right is huge - I always eat and exercise smarter not harder - makes a huge difference to a woman's whole body system :)
I realise you’re very busy, but at some point (maybe when less to do) please could you do a session on the “IOC framework on fairness, inclusion & non-discrimination on the basis of gender identity & sex variations“? I can’t make head nor tail of it. It clearly states they won’t screen for/test the sex of the person entering a competition but then says that criteria for eligibility must “provide confidence that no athlete within a category has an unfair & disproportionate competitive advantage”. They’re having a laugh! How are they getting away with such circular, incoherent, meaningless nonsense that clearly discriminates against females?
Thank you ladies. I only hope that the world's media pick this up and stop killing kaleidoscope and Lin 'she'. Absolutely infuriating. The Sydney Morning Herald had a sports editorial last week on this topic and it was very clear and well researched. And said that both boxers are male. As they say, if you've got a Y, you're a guy.
Heartbreaking is exactly it - the stupidity and sheer arrogance of those who are meant to be safeguarding those taking part in sport and the journalists who go along with it unquestionably is off the scale!!!!
EDIT: I meant this as a question! I've added question marks so it reads better. This was very good. To clarify, if a person has a Y chromosome they are male? A very few Y chromosome males have a very rare condition that means their testosterone doesn't work, but they are still biologically male? With chromosome anomalies from a biological sex perspective it doesn't matter how many Xs a person has, if there's a Y they are male?
Out of all the arguments and gaslighting, I keep coming back to, "Why haven't they appealed, Why haven't they shared the results of the IBA tests, why haven't they offered to take a public test, why did the Olympic committees tell the IBA to not release the results?" All of this is behaviour conducive with a biological male in women's sport and basically unthinkable in the case of a legitimate biological female.
My partner asked whether we could report individual news items to ofcom for bias? (Only problem is that ofcom is captured too, but it might be worth a shot?) It’s a lot of work though, I suppose…
Weirdly the Americans seem to think that as Khelif was declared female at birth, brought up as a woman, and is a woman on her passport, that she IS a woman and entitled to participate in women's boxing. However, they do not seem to see that she is in fact an XY chromosome male, with male advantages. They seem to have no conception of the unfairness of a natal male battering a woman in a boxing ring. It is bizarre.
let's say all of the following would be true: 1) Born with female phenotype. 2) 46XY karyotype 3) High testosterone. Could still be CAIS, no obvious male advantages in that case.... If you didn't know that, you don't know what you are talking about.
In any event they do present some obvious male advantages in reach and muscle power. If you think that it is fair, on women, to face an opponent with significant male advantages, and to put women boxers at risk of serious injury, then you are not thinking this through.
@@jl8217 no, you are confusing three separate issues: 1) how to classify people by sex (esp those with DSDs), 2) trans issues of self-identification (is it sufficient to self-identify-as for being whatever sex) and 3) fairness in sports. The crucial issue is 1). As for 2, that’s absurd and we need objective classifications of sex, not subjective ones. So that’s out in any sane world. As for 3), sports are never fair genetically, so that is out. We don’t disqualify tall people for having an unfair genetic advantage in basketball. That would be absurd. We just accept that sports aren’t fair, and some sports divided by weight class and all sports are divided by age classes so kids and old people can participate. And there are classes by disability status as well. But issue 1 is the only real issue. And there are a variety of OBJECTIVE biological ways of classifying people by sex: chromosomes, gonads, gametes, hormone levels, internal genitalia, external genitalia. And the way used by all doctors when observing a newborn is external genitalia - just look between the legs. And by that standard, Kehlif is a female (since her doctor observed her to be a female that way and she has a F on her passport and it can’t be changed in Algeria). That is not a wrong standard from chromosomal sex. It’s a different standard. It’s a ‘tie’. Nature doesn’t COMPEL any one standard be used when humans decide to classify people for cultural and political reasons by ‘sex’ when such people cannot reproduce sexually and are basically a-sexual as far as nature goes. But history and tradition weigh in favor of the external genitalia test since that’s what’s been used for all of time. There’s nothing unfair or bizarre about it. If this is what happened with Khelif, she’s a female, a woman, as a matter of objective biological fact using the external genitalia standard.
You are all so well informed and articulate that it is all the more baffling and pretty depressing that you are even having to argue this. I can only think that misogyny is much, much more widespread than I ever thought.
Maybe you need to use their absurd language against them. For example: "We are very concerned about the long-term representation of uterus-havers and menstruators in elite sports."
I wish I'd caught this live - my question is whether the sport of boxing could do with a better org backing them? My understanding (via Ross et al at Real Sci of Sport pod) is that World Rugby have successfully protected their female athletes from bio males being allowed to compete against them, including in the olympics. If World Rugby can do it, surely a well-thought-of governing body for boxing would help here? What are the chances of that helping in circumstances like these?
Can I just clarify that there’s written evidence to say we are talking about everyday passports? Someone said they are special athlete passports. I think that’s unlikely but I didn’t have any evidence to say otherwise so I left it. I think the suggestion is that the athletes passport would have been more thoroughly researched.
Most journalists don't take the time to listen to tbi gs of this length. They need a quick cheat sheet of facts or FAQs with references and a way to find out who they can speak to or interview or quote of they want to do a more detailed feature.
Because it’s irrelevant. If people want to compete in the Paralympics, that’s up to the athletes. The question here is whether an athlete qualifies for women’s boxing. Separate issue.
I dont get, why XY's would want to compete XX's. When I was training Judo for a couple of years already, as a 14 yo boy, none of the female trainees would stand a chance in sparring, no matter their age or weight.
Full support. May I ask, since we don’t know for sure that Khalif is XY and it’s only a theory that s/he has 5ARD, which does not not male puberty, why does she not have a beard (if she doesn’t)?
As a older conservative man I always thought ' let them play one day they will grow up ' today I know I was wrong I should have pushed back against the tide even if its to save those who dislike me for being an older conservative male
What about Ewa Klobukowska, the Polish sprinter who was stripped of her medals and made to suffer horrendous international humiliation for 'cheating' when she failed a sex test at the Tokyo Olympics in 1964? I am unaware of her ever receiving an apology or her medals reinstated, yet obvious men are being allowed to compete today on the basis of passports which can easily be falsified. Ewa Klobukowska was finally vindicated (in a way) when she gave birth to a child, proving once and for all that she was indeed a woman. I remember her case vividly and have wondered why she never received that apology. It must be agonising for her to see how gender status is being treated today!
I was wondering (and maybe somebody can help): The term "assigned at birth" was originally coined for people with DSDs and in my country one the goals of DSD organisations is to outlaw surgerys on newborns to make their genitals "more fitting". We have heard now a lot of people who are biologically male and got assigned "female", particularly 5-ARD. Are there DSDs where females get wrongly assigned male? My guess is, that this problem of "assigning" only can happen to male newborns?
hmm...we don't know Khelif's precise status. What DSD has Khelif experienced? This is critical. For instance, it's possible to have xy chromosomes, functional external female genitalia (or semi-functional with the appearance of majority) and poorly functioning or non-functioning gonads (Swyer's Syndrome). What is a person with xy, external female genitalia but no functional gonads? Functional gonads would release hormones (testosterone, etc) to start the complex cascade of sexual development. Khelif presents with a very male looking body: tall, large, well-defined muscles, big shoulders and sharp, male-appearing facial features, i.e., Khelif does not present as a person with Swyer's. Fair enough. All I'm saying is that we don't know the whole story. Carole Hooven's whole book, "T", is an argument for the idea that it isn't just the chromosomes; it's the gametes. So where are we here? The IOCs "passport rule" is laughably stupid, but is "sex testing", i.e, XX vs XY, the whole answer?
That DSD is really complicated. If the Algerian boxer actually was rather a „botched“ male, than it must be difficult to switched lanes after being raised as a girl. But pleeease, if the only argument for the boxer’s right to fight in the woman class is: but she was raised a s a girl, sorry, that does not cut it. Complicated and all, but no biological woman. It was really hard to get those details from the news, and o the irony, there were several articles bashing JKR or Dawkin and „how they lied about the boxer’s sex“
The two boxers are appalling technically. They only won based on power, height and reach. And I bit of shady grappling and pushing by Khelif. They were outboxed in every full fight. It wasn't even close.
DOES Khalif have a DSD? Given where Khelif was born in the Atlas mountains I'd assume he was home birthed with a family midwife. Parents made the call to register him as a girl with local religious authorities & eventually had to get a passport as a woman as sex cant be changed in Algeria. I assume he maybe had a small penis when born, puberty virilized him & knows he's male (his old coach claims they were aware!)
Lots of assumptions there. And maybe Khelif is a woman, and being a woman means you never developed a penis, that’s that. Maybe a genital inspection of all athletes will solve this.
Like these women, I'm stuck in the old apparently fashioned idea that facts outweigh beliefs. Nowadays and in the near future, any man who believes that he is a girl can use any bathroom he wants to; any 250 lb. boxer who "self identifies" as a featherweight can compete with the featherweights; and any horse with a note from his psychiatrist claiming that it truly believes it's human can compete in the 1500 Meter run at the Olympics.
Maybe this will come up later but Khelif's birth certificate was issued in 2018. Clearly he's a 6 year old girl. It's not suspicious at all it was issued just before he started boxing in women's boxing.......
Can a genetic mosaic XX/XXY woman has baby? I have argued with Taiwanese who pros Lin Yu Ting for this topic, they raise me a example of Polish female athletic Ewa Klobukowska who was proved to be a genetic mosaic and had been disqualified from her gold medal champion. They told me she had a baby a couple years later, so a genetic mosaic woman can claimed to be a famale. Is it possible for a XXY woman to has baby?
I was trying to work this out. Semenya is responsible for two children. Her partner gave birth to both. The first via IVF and I can't tell if they used genetic material from Semenya. Then the second was seemingly conceived naturally? It seems like the press want us to think Semenya was the biological mother though.
So who cleared Iman Khelif for professional boxing before 2023? I understand they lost the world championships in 2022 and in the Tokyo Olympics 2020. They lost a total of 9 over the years between 2016 and 2022. To date the results of the IBA have not been published. So for now it's not clear. They are the facts. Further, this is the current meaning of Swyer Syndrome: People with Swyer syndrome have female external genitalia and some female internal reproductive structures. These individuals usually have a uterus and fallopian tubes, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) are not functional. Instead, the gonads are small and underdeveloped and contain little gonadal tissue. These structures are called streak gonads. The streak gonadal tissue is at risk of developing cancer that is often hard-to-detect, so it is usually removed surgically. Swyer syndrome is also called 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis; the medical term “dysgenesis” means "abnormal development.
They were cleared on the basis that males were allowed in female sports. Wherever women speak the truth this failed male alcoholic is there to berate them.
Weird science. Is Dr. Hilton a medical endocrinologist for people or a research biologist specialising in the African clawed frog? This NGO is frequently cited by the British press. Does it have any physicians or medical doctors willing to speak future media briefings?
We just need one of you (preferably the doctor) to get onto joe rogan and this would all be over in a heartbeat. Its just sheer numbers of uninformed people and the rest are woke.
The Russia Russia stuff is so utterly ridiculous. It means in 2023 7 days before the Russian met imane in the ring they went to the independent indian lab to test imane. And they travelled back in time in a time machine to 2022 to submit another test which imane failed by another independent lab. Then came back to June 2023 waited until their Russian fighter lost and then showed the results of the second test. And then as a side bar they decided to ban a taiwanees fighter whose in another weight division for 💩s and giggles. Excellent presentation well done for protecting women's sports for my 8 year old daughter.
That's basically my conclusion. The timeline is ludicrous. The "Russians" are a combination of Greeks, Brits, Americans, Hungarians, Turks, Indians and I can work out one named Russian. And they chose all this instead of a simple doping test falsification. Let's go with something that can be easily disproven at any moment by anyone. Makes perfect sense.
imagine your daughter making it to the olympics her life long dream, your whole family and extended family are over the moon and so proud only for her once in a lifetime opportunity to be stolen from a fucking man...OMG that poor girl who quit in 45secs breaks my heart.
This was incredibly valuable. It is infuriating how badly this is being covered by mainstream media outlets. Thank you Fiona, Emma, Sharron and Mara for your clarity, insights and rigour. I hope it makes a difference.
It is a pretty complex topic tbf but yeah, the mainstream media generally seems content to spend about 5 minutes researching and then saying "well, it's swyer syndrome, that's what it is, women with XY Chromosomes exist in the form of people with swyer syndrome, that's the answer". They don't do any further digging that would make it clear that Swyer syndrome is not a legitimate explanation for why an apparently female athlete appears to have a male physique. It's always just enough journalistic investigation to reach the point where their bias is confirmed then "well, that's all we needed to know".
My god the amount of grief I've had today because of a comment I made..... Its also caused a family row... I've posted this now on my fb and left it...its just unfair and I'm sticking to it..being gaslit though...
This discussion wasn’t much better than mainstream media. Emma dogmatically asserts that there’s only male and female, and everybody is one of them. But what’s the justification? She gave none. And what’s to stop Mother Nature from producing a baby with a vagina, no penis, no testicles, but internal testes? Or a penis with ovaries? Mother Nature does whatever she wants, but she doesn’t give us a vocabulary and classificatory scheme and language for describing each every anomaly from what is ‘typical’. WE make that up. And we can make up a scheme that includes the baby described above as ‘intersex’ and consider that a third sex. We can make up a scheme that says that if you have a Y chromosome, that is sufficient for being male, so you’re a male just by virtue of having a Y chromosome, regardless of phenotype. Or we can have a scheme that says (as almost all cultures have done throughout history), if you’re born without a penis and without testicles, then you are girl, no matter what your DNA is, no matter what’s chromosomes you have. So consider these three rival classificatory schemes. Is there anything that COMPELS one and only scheme and vocabulary to be used at the expense of all the others? I don’t see the argument for that. Instead, what we get is chest-pounding and question-begging that dogmatically asserts what sex is without proving it. Then we get a long-winded and irrelevant discussion about testosterone. I do not dispute that testosterone plays a huge role in development, esp strength, and can impact athletic performance. But that has nothing to do with the primary and sole issue of - what is a woman. That question requires consideration of the rival schemes and standards for classifying a baby or adult as a female/girl/woman. And we got no justification for why one scheme is right and the others are wrong (instead of neutrally saying that other schemes are merely different). The rest of the discussion on testosterone and sports and fairness is totally irrelevant and a red-herring to this primary discussion of sex classification and which standard to use. As such, this discussion gets a C- for failing to deal with the core issue. See me after class.
I’m amazed people still believe that the purpose and aim of mainstream media is bringing objective, factual news.
@@jaijai5250 exactly, if you want objective, factual news, watch RUclips and read the comments section. That’s where i get all my news. 🙄
Sharron is brilliant.
These ladies are at the top of their game. Mara and Sharon - legends. Fiona and Emma fast becoming two of my favourite commentators along with Helen J and Kathleen S. thanks for this excellent resource
Getting girls and women to participate in sports is already a challenge! If this issue isn’t resolved it’s likely to have an impact on participation down the line! I see this as having an impact on health outcomes for girls and women.
It already has had a huge effect.
Sport isn't the only way to exercise.
You are all amazing and incredible at explaining these matters in a simple and clear way. I am a gay man who has lost most of his friends because I am a realist not an idealogue. For so long I struggled with the language I needed to fight my case when discussing these issues but all you wonderful women have given me my voice. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you do.
Isn’t Helen Joyce just the best overall explainer on this topic?
@@slacktoryrecords4193 Yes. But all the individuals at Sex Matter are amazing
@@slacktoryrecords4193She is incredible, so clear in what she is saying and at explaining things in a very simple way.
They have no problem in asking for pregnancy tests for female boxers in many competitions, but a cheek swab test is a breach of privacy?
I’m against the cheek swab. Why not just bring back genital inspection ? That’s the oldest way of determining sex and how almost all people determined sex throughout history. By that test, most likely Khelif would pass as female and there’d be no fuss about it.
@@RC-qf3mpDid you watch the video? For 46XY DSDs, that is a most inaccurate way to determine sex. Males with one of these DSDs do not develop a penis, their testes remain inside the pelvic cavity, but still produce normal male amounts of testosterone. This leaves the greater power, skeletomuscular strength and cardiovascular output of a male in female sports, to the detriment of female safety, and to fairness.
@@Bellas1717 you are presupposing the truth of the standard of genotype. I’m questioning genotype as the standard. Phenotype is also biological and objective and can be used as a standard and HAS been used for all of human history until chromosomes were discovered. You’re not even thinking about the question I’m posing. Where you come from, what do they call a baby born without a penis? Where I come from, that’s a ‘girl’. And the idea isn’t that we’re inferring the chromosomes - it’s that we don’t care. We care about the physical body characteristics. The body is what is male or female, not the chromosomes. You’ve got the cart before the horse. Chromosomes are science are great for showing what causes what to develop, typically, and even atypically as we get better at figuring out what causes DSDs. But the science has NOTHING TO SAY about whether the genotype standard SHOULD be used for our classifying people as ‘women’ or whether a phenotype standard should be used. It’s a meta-science question - it’s just beyond what science does.
@@RC-qf3mp We classified the solar system as geocentric before it was discovered that it was heliocentric. People thought that the Bubonic Plague was caused by the position of the planets, until bacteria were discovered. So what we did before we discovered chromosomes is replaced by the far more exact science of DNA analysis. Phenotype is useful for taxonomic classification, it can be used often for sex determination, but not always, and often not in the case of 5-ARD.
Children were often misassigned as female in the past. In today's world, ambiguous genitalia would quickly lead to genetic testing, if the parents hadn’t already had that during the pregnancy. The child would then be accurately assigned according to their biological sex. Sorry, you’re a little behind the science, not cart before the horse at all. It is importantly for the safety of, and for fairness to female athletes. That’s what is being discussed, not the everyday person where gender choices are a more personal and private matter.
I have a degree in human genetics and years in the field, so I actually do know what I’m talking about.
@@Bellas1717 you are confusing empirically false beliefs and confusions people had with different standards/concepts of what something is. A better example of the debate would be whether Pluto is a planet or not. Nobody disputes Pluto exists, and it orbits the sun a certain way, and has a certain shape and size and mass. But scientists have different competing standards of what ‘planet’ means and so when that standard is applied to Pluto, you get different results. Pluto is anomalous among planet-like objects and scientists can reasonably classify as a planet or not. There’s gray area in nature. Similarly, when does human life begin? Most biologists would say human life begins at conception when the unique DNA is formed of a new organism from both the mother and father’s DNA. But does this mean abortion is necessarily the murder of an innocent human being? Do you think using the morning after pill is murder? OR…is it reasonable to think that human life begins at birth? Which standard gets used is? There’s gray area and it’s a matter of line-drawing. Back to DSDs - there are multiple criteria that could be used to classify anomalous sex conditions. The biology doesn’t compel any ONE standard uniquely. But history and tradition have their own standard, and that’s apparent by looking at newborn baby between the legs. It’s not wrong, just different, and there’s no authoritative answer from the high and mighty biologist. And for the same reason, we don’t have biologists determining abortion policy.
Thank you for all you do ladies ❤️
Bring back the simple, single cheek swab for eligibility to the female competition. Its a necessity for safety and fairness, but also dignity and sportsmanship. The current circus is utterly undignified.
I agree
@nope567nope: Undignified - yes but mainly just wrong.
Yes and for the competitors' sakes it needs to be done very early in their career. A once and done when you start showing promise in a sport.
I'm from a circus family and wish you guys would stop using this in a derogatory way...
@@chippers808😂
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation, in the long term, is doing a huge disservice to their reputation of being able to report fairly, with scientific clarity, and free from a ideological viewpoint. Having been a lifelong consumer of the ABC, I am so surprised how easy it has been to lose journalism as a real investigative, rational and independent source of information.
I really resent how it has decided not to listen to the majority of women in Australia. While claiming to be inclusive.
Excellent!!!!
Excellent . Thank you all.
Thanks for this. So tired of reporters not bothering to find out, or mis-reporting, then saying that a lack of knowledge is some kind of defence as they try to wait out the competition and whistle rather than advocating for a 1 minute test... that the privacy of a test result in this sport is somehow the biggest issue, rather than the health, safety and fairness of the competition.
Exactly I think this is exactly why Imane Khelif filed a "complaint" with French prosecutors. We all know that such legal action will probably never go anywhere, it's just a misdirection and an opportunity for the media to focus on the "story" that Khelif is trying to sue two well-known celebrities so that they can ignore the actual issues that created this situation in the first place.
Absolutely fascinating piece, Thankyou. I’ll be forwarding this to as many people as I can. It’s maddening to hear journalists/reporters referring to these people as “she” and having activist interviewees always spouting their usual ideology driven responses. The BBC should have these ladies on, and every politician, sports body etc should be made to watch this and then have them on panels when policies are being written. Brilliant work . ❤ Sex Matters
The problem is everybody has an ‘ideology’, ie., a conceptual scheme and vocabulary for thinking and talking about this issue. And Emma is no different - she dogmatically asserts at the beginning that there are only two sexes. Really? Why doesn’t she prove it or justify it? Why can’t intersex conditions be a third-sex and just leave it at that? Mother Nature doesn’t care how we carve her up - it seems like arbitrary line-drawing at what counts as male or female when it comes to at least some DSDs. But no, Emma is emphatic and dogmatic. That’s not science. Science needs empirical evidence and logical argumentation. But we get none on the core issue - which is why use HER ideology/classificatory scheme instead of competing schemes, such as the ordinary one that cultures and indigenous peoples have been using since forever - namely, the genital inspection test. If you’re born without a penis and without testicles, you’re a girl - period. That’s the standard. Doesn’t matter if you have a Y chromosome or internal testes. What’s wrong with that? I get it, such people can produce large amounts of testosterone. And so what if they do? Surely, being male or female isn’t a matter of testosterone, although no doubt testosterone tends to be produced in much higher quantities in typical males than in typical females. But we aren’t talking about what’s ‘typical’, we’re talking about exceptional, anomalous cases, and science is notoriously bad at classifying them. It’s just not what science cares about - science cares about patterns, laws of nature, regularities, causation. It’s generally arbitrary line-drawing how to classify such things in other organisms. The only reason why people care here is because there’s a lot at stake for sports and policy. But that doesn’t change the general deficiency science has in making such arbitrary classifications. And it’s proven arbitrary by the lack of justification from Emma to defend her view against rival standards. She begs the question and uses circular reasoning whenever the issue comes up. She’s as much entrenched in her ideology as anybody else. She’s preaching to a choir, but since you are devotee in the choir, you aren’t calling her out on it. But i am.
@@RC-qf3mp a typical response from someone who is in denial of truth. “Intersex” people are not a third sex. They are people whose genitalia have not developed correctly and have possibly been incorrectly recorded as male or female at birth. They are still either male or female and for medical reasons it’s vital they are classified correctly. They may chose to live differently to XX or XY but due to the biological differences between the two sexes it’s important they know which category they belong to. (Blood volume, size of vital organs etc)
In order for Dr Hilton to explain the entire science and complicated genetics and biology , she would, I imagine need days or more. This session was not for that purpose . It was to discuss and dispel some of the myths around these two boxers, who went in to a ring to complete against women. They failed a sex test run by the IBA amd that’s why they were banned. If you agree with your own argument, then potentially you’re denying a person with a dsd proper medical care because you’re disregarding their genetics and biology. Not a good idea if they’re going for a kidney transplant or about to donate or receive blood given that it’s different for the TWO sexes 🤷🏻♀️
You’re not calling anyone out. Please prove what the other biological sexes are, except for male and female. I’m not asking you about birth defects or disorders.
Please educate me on the other functioning sex gametes found in “other” sexes. Where is this species?
The real shocker is at about 33 minutes, when Fiona reveals that the Algerian XY boxer in the female category did training at a camp where he was halted from sparring with 2 female boxers. He then trained with a male in the next lower weight category. Astonishing~
36:14 That Khelif had to spar with a male in a lower weight class is proof that he's a mediocre male boxer.
I can’t imagine their grief . @23 years old they will tell you oups you are a male , and millions of people discuss your sex.
It is becoming so difficult to find factual scientific medical explanation of what is happening and a clear explanation on how this affects female sport. Thank you.
As Boghossian, Pluckrose and Lindsay pointed out five years ago, the peer review process is broken. It's merely idea laundering now. 50% of psychology studies cannot be replicated.
This wasn’t a “factual scientific medical explanation”. It was thoroughly biased and used circular arguments that presuppose a definition of male and female without articulating what that definition is, without justifying it and, most importantly, without showing what’s wrong with rival conceptions of male/female, esp the common sense one - that a female is born without a penis and without testicles. Doesn’t matter if the little girl has a Y chromosome or internal testes. By that standard, she’s still a girl. What’s wrong with that? Instead of argument, we get chest-pounding choir preaching. And you are in the choir, so you don’t complain about it or even notice. But this isn’t a high level intellectual debate - it was one-sided ideological ranting.
@@RC-qf3mplittle girls don’t have a Y chromosome and testes. Only males have those.
@@jaijai5250 girls with androgen insensitivity syndrome can have so-called internal testes. They could also be called ‘gonads’.
Fantastic presentation thanks so much!
Thank you all for this briefing. Our ABC public broadcaster in Australian did a very inadequate piece on this last night. Not one mention of DSDs or the possibility of the boxers having been through male puberty. Talked about the 'Russia' connection. Said the testing that was done had been discredited. Basically just 'be kind' and how dare women ask questions. All must be sore losers and spoil sports. Our media here is completely incurious to the point of negligence. Infuriating!
Our Australian media stopped being credible a while ago sadly.
Can you imagine what they get up to when they go to Thailand? Say no more...
The media in this country is so far down the rabbit hole it is disgusting. I've certainly stopped being kind on this issue.
To the point of complicity in male violence against women.
This could be settled by some fresh tests
Total respect to you and Sex Matters. Is there any chance you will protest the gold medal fights in Paris? I wish I was there because I'm hoping some women will jump in that ring and stop the fight!! We need a real protest action and prevent those male cheaters from taking the gold. Can someone please get back to me on this? Thank you
The measure of what a woman is just keeps changing according to every individual they want to accommodate - it's behaviours, no it's clothes, no, it's what you feel, no, it's whatever doesn't hurt a man's feelings, no, it's your level of testosterone, no, it's which side of the shop you buy from, no, its your passport.... Every time one of the measures they used last week doesn't let a man into a place he wants to be.
Exactly. And it's disgusting
True, the gender ideology is absurd. But Emma keeps on saying ‘male advantage’ or ‘male puberty’ or ‘masculinizing’ without ever defining what standard of male and female she’s using. She asserts, dogmatically, that there is nothing inbetween male and female, and doesn’t back it up with any facts or argument. Why can’t nature just mutate into existence something that resists are arbitrary standards of male/female? It seems various DSDs do just that, and it’s not clear what is so authoritative about the classification of DSDs she is using. Why can’t some of the DSDs that Emma considers to be ‘male’ be considered ‘female’ instead? What measure is she using and what’s the support for it? Instead, Emma goes back and forth between science and policy considerations about ‘fairness’ and ‘male advantage’ that have nothing to do with the core issue of whether any particular individual with a peculiar DSD is actually male or female and WHY. I don’t believe in any one scientific classification anymore than I believe in the Bible. I want to see the arguments and research myself. And there are various classifications that can be used - a simple one is genital inspection, which is what was original used in the Olympics and for 99.99% of human history.
Thank you. A lot of people who have been following this are aware of these issues but thank you so much for putting it all so directly & succinctly. Hopefully the media will be using this as a useful resource! Will be sharing far & wide.
I absolutely agree: The IOC saying that passport decides gender is a gross negligence of female boxers.
Very informative discussion, thank you.
Extremely enlightening. Thank you very much
I remember watching the Olympics as a young child in the 70s and even then could see the German athletes competing in the female category had male characteristics. Even children have the ability to recognise female and male differences. I love sports and I have always loved competition but I have also known my entire life that major/international sporting competitions are corrupt and unfair. As long as women are not involved from the top down, female athletes will be marginalised, as human females - of all ethnicities - are marginalised in the rest of society.
Yes, in exactly the same way as women are passed over in every other sphere of life if they are not represented, in numbers, at all levels of those other spheres.
You probably saw women athletes from East Germany and some other eastern countries who were routinely doped and fed hormones without really telling them, with „amazing“ results. I remember some trials after the wall came down. Some of the women athletes filed a law suit as their bodies had gotten permanently damaged by getting heavy doses of testosterone
Excellent discussion.
The commentary around this issue has been almost universally disgraceful and there is no good reason why.
This is a simple question around a set of facts that could be easily settled.
That the IOC and media has gone to such huge effort to obfuscate the issue is astonishing.
How can any good faith observer not conclude that there is an agenda at play within the IOC.
FACTS. Thank You.
Males, with or with out a DSD, belong in the male category. If the DSD the male athlete has forecloses him from being competitive with other males the response should be too bad. The female category is not their consolation category.
That last line ❤
Sure, but what’s a ‘male’, what’s a ‘female’? There are rival standards of what counts as ‘female’, and i haven’t seen anything in the biology or this lecture that compels one standard over the other. The main alternative is that a baby born without a penis and without testicles is a female, a girl - regardless of chromosomes and internal testes. Why is one standard right and the other wrong? Looks totally arbitrary which standard gets used.
It's hilarious to see the "assigned at birth" crowd now try to argue that the sex the men were observed as at birth is the one they have to stick to. 🤣
Irony
And intersex which is literally on their flag doesn't exist anymore everyone is a woman now.
Irony indeed
Well, we’ve tried to tell them for years that people with DSDs have nothing to do with trans-identifying people, and I hope now they understand the difference.
I don’t think they do, however.
@@slacktoryrecords4193 They won't understand if it's convenient for them not to.
Thank you for all theses clear informations and facts about this issue!
Sharon is right; women are not vocal enough, not able to stand up, for fear of cancellation. Women need to sit in silent protest around the world outside rec centres, track centres !!!
IOC deliberately misleading
Thank you. Truly excellent.
BRAVO!!!
Excellent briefing, thank you. So many good points raised.
Wonderful video. Sharron’s opening remarks were so powerful and succinct. It’s all about common sense, truth, and fairness, and we’re getting the exact opposite of all 3.
This is the best discussion on this controversy I've watched so far. Many thanks. 😊
Such an informative piece. Thank you very much. When you discover that there are large sums of money to be had, it's not surprising that there is corruption. And I really appreciate Sharron's point about the IOC ignoring doping for TWENTY YEARS. And the IOC has the audacity to say that the IBA is discredited. I also like the answer to the point that Khelif has been beaten by women in his career. It's because he's just an average MALE boxer competing against elite women.
That this happens in BOXING is even more egregious, and just shows how dangerous this misogyny is!!
Thank goodness there are brilliant women like all of you fighting to save women's sports. It is appalling that women are having to spend their precious time doing this, but here we are.
Well, if Khelif is a woman, then women’s sports is doing just fine. The problem is, there’s a debate on who is and isn’t a woman, what the standard is for determining who’s a woman, and what rival standards are wrong.
I feel as if I have woken up in A Twilight Zone episode.
Does the IOC not have a duty of care for its female athletes?
Cannot the women athletes sue them for lack of care?
Thank you so much for this. it's very educational. I still can't believe what IOC allowed to happen in Women's boxing in Paris 2024. this lunacy has to stop.
Thank you SO much. Anyone curious needs to look elsewhere, other than mainstream media, for their information
Why is this not being covered on the BBC? Why is the journalism on this issue so poor?
The aim and purpose of the BBF is not to bring objective, factual news.
thank you. that was marvellous to have so many experts giving sharing their knowledge.
I run a female pelvic & back pain clinic and worked in sport medicine and rehabilitation for almost 30 years - and I will directly discriminate - you either have a female pelvis or a male one - simple - I deal with females only. When listening to so called "journalists" my blood boils - ignorance personified as it is with many sporting associations. I have enjoyed and appreciated listening to this today as it has reinforced my knowledge and boosted my morale that I am right in what I am doing and saying. I won't be deterred, I won't lie and I will live in the realms of reality - "First Do No Harm"
Yea, funny, how some try to discuss away biology, I remember a speech about biology in humans and sex differences, with women it was somewhat depressing that a lot of the angles and static are less effective because the pelvis has to accommodate a baby and its passage into the world, so, yea, we rather suffer from iffy hipps and really need to do our pelvic floor exercises
@@rosablume4346 the female anatomy & our hormone system has a huge interplay with our wellbeing - it's truly fascinating and is more complex for females on every level than a man. Pelvic floor exercises are a good start but looking after your hormones by eating and exercising right is huge - I always eat and exercise smarter not harder - makes a huge difference to a woman's whole body system :)
Thank you so much for this, ladies! It's truly astounding how many people, especially women, are supporting male athletes competing in female sports.
So makes me angry when men are described as hyperandrogenic women. They are men with normal testosterone levels in men.
I realise you’re very busy, but at some point (maybe when less to do) please could you do a session on the “IOC framework on fairness, inclusion & non-discrimination on the basis of gender identity & sex variations“?
I can’t make head nor tail of it. It clearly states they won’t screen for/test the sex of the person entering a competition but then says that criteria for eligibility must “provide confidence that no athlete within a category has an unfair & disproportionate competitive advantage”.
They’re having a laugh! How are they getting away with such circular, incoherent, meaningless nonsense that clearly discriminates against females?
Thank you ladies. I only hope that the world's media pick this up and stop killing kaleidoscope and Lin 'she'. Absolutely infuriating. The Sydney Morning Herald had a sports editorial last week on this topic and it was very clear and well researched. And said that both boxers are male. As they say, if you've got a Y, you're a guy.
It's been an incredible meeting, thanks to all of you for showing us so well the keys to the question
Thank you very much for this- really clear and helpful.
Heartbreaking is exactly it - the stupidity and sheer arrogance of those who are meant to be safeguarding those taking part in sport and the journalists who go along with it unquestionably is off the scale!!!!
EDIT: I meant this as a question! I've added question marks so it reads better.
This was very good. To clarify, if a person has a Y chromosome they are male? A very few Y chromosome males have a very rare condition that means their testosterone doesn't work, but they are still biologically male? With chromosome anomalies from a biological sex perspective it doesn't matter how many Xs a person has, if there's a Y they are male?
Out of all the arguments and gaslighting, I keep coming back to, "Why haven't they appealed, Why haven't they shared the results of the IBA tests, why haven't they offered to take a public test, why did the Olympic committees tell the IBA to not release the results?"
All of this is behaviour conducive with a biological male in women's sport and basically unthinkable in the case of a legitimate biological female.
My partner asked whether we could report individual news items to ofcom for bias? (Only problem is that ofcom is captured too, but it might be worth a shot?) It’s a lot of work though, I suppose…
Excellent contributions from every woman involved.
Keep after it ladies! Wonderfully informative and dispassionate. Good job!
Brilliant discussion by a group of based and expert women. More of this, please.
Weirdly the Americans seem to think that as Khelif was declared female at birth, brought up as a woman, and is a woman on her passport, that she IS a woman and entitled to participate in women's boxing. However, they do not seem to see that she is in fact an XY chromosome male, with male advantages. They seem to have no conception of the unfairness of a natal male battering a woman in a boxing ring. It is bizarre.
I've been arguing with people all day about this...ffs
let's say all of the following would be true:
1) Born with female phenotype.
2) 46XY karyotype
3) High testosterone.
Could still be CAIS, no obvious male advantages in that case.... If you didn't know that, you don't know what you are talking about.
In any event they do present some obvious male advantages in reach and muscle power. If you think that it is fair, on women, to face an opponent with significant male advantages, and to put women boxers at risk of serious injury, then you are not thinking this through.
All this is assumption until we see a document 😊
@@jl8217 no, you are confusing three separate issues: 1) how to classify people by sex (esp those with DSDs), 2) trans issues of self-identification (is it sufficient to self-identify-as for being whatever sex) and 3) fairness in sports. The crucial issue is 1). As for 2, that’s absurd and we need objective classifications of sex, not subjective ones. So that’s out in any sane world. As for 3), sports are never fair genetically, so that is out. We don’t disqualify tall people for having an unfair genetic advantage in basketball. That would be absurd. We just accept that sports aren’t fair, and some sports divided by weight class and all sports are divided by age classes so kids and old people can participate. And there are classes by disability status as well. But issue 1 is the only real issue. And there are a variety of OBJECTIVE biological ways of classifying people by sex: chromosomes, gonads, gametes, hormone levels, internal genitalia, external genitalia. And the way used by all doctors when observing a newborn is external genitalia - just look between the legs. And by that standard, Kehlif is a female (since her doctor observed her to be a female that way and she has a F on her passport and it can’t be changed in Algeria). That is not a wrong standard from chromosomal sex. It’s a different standard. It’s a ‘tie’. Nature doesn’t COMPEL any one standard be used when humans decide to classify people for cultural and political reasons by ‘sex’ when such people cannot reproduce sexually and are basically a-sexual as far as nature goes. But history and tradition weigh in favor of the external genitalia test since that’s what’s been used for all of time. There’s nothing unfair or bizarre about it. If this is what happened with Khelif, she’s a female, a woman, as a matter of objective biological fact using the external genitalia standard.
I've read that the head of IOC said there is no scientific way to determine sex. Unfortunately, nobody asked him why he has 2 categories then.
And perhaps what his degrees are in medicine…
You are all so well informed and articulate that it is all the more baffling and pretty depressing that you are even having to argue this. I can only think that misogyny is much, much more widespread than I ever thought.
The God for women like you, ♥
Maybe you need to use their absurd language against them. For example: "We are very concerned about the long-term representation of uterus-havers and menstruators in elite sports."
I wish I'd caught this live - my question is whether the sport of boxing could do with a better org backing them? My understanding (via Ross et al at Real Sci of Sport pod) is that World Rugby have successfully protected their female athletes from bio males being allowed to compete against them, including in the olympics. If World Rugby can do it, surely a well-thought-of governing body for boxing would help here? What are the chances of that helping in circumstances like these?
❤🇬🇧
The Thai boxer has a golf ball sized larynx; are we really saying that no one knows…
Are you really saying that the emperor's new clothes are...not clothes? Shame on you!
Oh, they know. They just don’t care.
Ladyboy, works at Phuket at the weekends.
Can I just clarify that there’s written evidence to say we are talking about everyday passports? Someone said they are special athlete passports. I think that’s unlikely but I didn’t have any evidence to say otherwise so I left it. I think the suggestion is that the athletes passport would have been more thoroughly researched.
AMAZING
Most journalists don't take the time to listen to tbi gs of this length. They need a quick cheat sheet of facts or FAQs with references and a way to find out who they can speak to or interview or quote of they want to do a more detailed feature.
Why are sports bodies not discussing entry into Paralympics for people with the medical condition DSD?
Because it’s irrelevant. If people want to compete in the Paralympics, that’s up to the athletes. The question here is whether an athlete qualifies for women’s boxing. Separate issue.
are there any recorded cases of women with a DSD in an elite sport?
Yes, in the Rio Olympics, males with male DSDs took the gold, silver and bronze in the Women's 800m.
@@karenprocter239 That's appalling, if those DSDs conferred male advantages. But I more meant XX, e.g. 46 XX.
I dont get, why XY's would want to compete XX's. When I was training Judo for a couple of years already, as a 14 yo boy, none of the female trainees would stand a chance in sparring, no matter their age or weight.
Excellent ,the bbc should be ashamed of themselves for failing their job to report on events accurately
There are 8 billion people on the planet. What is the scale of the “problem”? How many male DSD cases per year ?
Do women pregnant with boys have higher testosterone while pregnant, due to spill over from the fetus?
Only by a small amount, certainly nothing significant.
Full support. May I ask, since we don’t know for sure that Khalif is XY and it’s only a theory that s/he has 5ARD, which does not not male puberty, why does she not have a beard (if she doesn’t)?
the Thai boxer looks sketchy! Not to mention the other events!
As a older conservative man I always thought ' let them play one day they will grow up ' today I know I was wrong I should have pushed back against the tide even if its to save those who dislike me for being an older conservative male
What about Ewa Klobukowska, the Polish sprinter who was stripped of her medals and made to suffer horrendous international humiliation for 'cheating' when she failed a sex test at the Tokyo Olympics in 1964? I am unaware of her ever receiving an apology or her medals reinstated, yet obvious men are being allowed to compete today on the basis of passports which can easily be falsified.
Ewa Klobukowska was finally vindicated (in a way) when she gave birth to a child, proving once and for all that she was indeed a woman. I remember her case vividly and have wondered why she never received that apology. It must be agonising for her to see how gender status is being treated today!
SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN WITH THREE LEGS DOES NOT CHANGE THAT HUMANS HAVE TWO LEGS
I was wondering (and maybe somebody can help): The term "assigned at birth" was originally coined for people with DSDs and in my country one the goals of DSD organisations is to outlaw surgerys on newborns to make their genitals "more fitting". We have heard now a lot of people who are biologically male and got assigned "female", particularly 5-ARD. Are there DSDs where females get wrongly assigned male? My guess is, that this problem of "assigning" only can happen to male newborns?
hmm...we don't know Khelif's precise status. What DSD has Khelif experienced? This is critical. For instance, it's possible to have xy chromosomes, functional external female genitalia (or semi-functional with the appearance of majority) and poorly functioning or non-functioning gonads (Swyer's Syndrome). What is a person with xy, external female genitalia but no functional gonads? Functional gonads would release hormones (testosterone, etc) to start the complex cascade of sexual development. Khelif presents with a very male looking body: tall, large, well-defined muscles, big shoulders and sharp, male-appearing facial features, i.e., Khelif does not present as a person with Swyer's. Fair enough. All I'm saying is that we don't know the whole story. Carole Hooven's whole book, "T", is an argument for the idea that it isn't just the chromosomes; it's the gametes. So where are we here? The IOCs "passport rule" is laughably stupid, but is "sex testing", i.e, XX vs XY, the whole answer?
That DSD is really complicated. If the Algerian boxer actually was rather a „botched“ male, than it must be difficult to switched lanes after being raised as a girl. But pleeease, if the only argument for the boxer’s right to fight in the woman class is: but she was raised a s a girl, sorry, that does not cut it. Complicated and all, but no biological woman. It was really hard to get those details from the news, and o the irony, there were several articles bashing JKR or Dawkin and „how they lied about the boxer’s sex“
The two boxers are appalling technically. They only won based on power, height and reach. And I bit of shady grappling and pushing by Khelif. They were outboxed in every full fight. It wasn't even close.
DOES Khalif have a DSD? Given where Khelif was born in the Atlas mountains I'd assume he was home birthed with a family midwife. Parents made the call to register him as a girl with local religious authorities & eventually had to get a passport as a woman as sex cant be changed in Algeria. I assume he maybe had a small penis when born, puberty virilized him & knows he's male (his old coach claims they were aware!)
Lots of assumptions there. And maybe Khelif is a woman, and being a woman means you never developed a penis, that’s that. Maybe a genital inspection of all athletes will solve this.
Like these women, I'm stuck in the old apparently fashioned idea that facts outweigh beliefs.
Nowadays and in the near future, any man who believes that he is a girl can use any bathroom he wants to; any 250 lb. boxer who "self identifies" as a featherweight can compete with the featherweights; and any horse with a note from his psychiatrist claiming that it truly believes it's human can compete in the 1500 Meter run at the Olympics.
SEX MATTERS BECAUSE MEN AND WOMAN ARE DIFFERENT. EXAMPLE MEN ARE MORE INTO THINGS WOMAN INTO PEOPLE.
Maybe this will come up later but Khelif's birth certificate was issued in 2018.
Clearly he's a 6 year old girl.
It's not suspicious at all it was issued just before he started boxing in women's boxing.......
Is it as simple as this:
Y+
Y-
??
Can a genetic mosaic XX/XXY woman has baby? I have argued with Taiwanese who pros Lin Yu Ting for this topic, they raise me a example of Polish female athletic Ewa Klobukowska who was proved to be a genetic mosaic and had been disqualified from her gold medal champion. They told me she had a baby a couple years later, so a genetic mosaic woman can claimed to be a famale. Is it possible for a XXY woman to has baby?
cryptorchidism
What about the unfair advantage women with PCOS have in elite women's running?
Hasn't Caster Semenya fathered a child??
I was trying to work this out. Semenya is responsible for two children. Her partner gave birth to both. The first via IVF and I can't tell if they used genetic material from Semenya. Then the second was seemingly conceived naturally?
It seems like the press want us to think Semenya was the biological mother though.
Thank you for this,it was brilliant 💚🤍💜
So who cleared Iman Khelif for professional boxing before 2023? I understand they lost the world championships in 2022 and in the Tokyo Olympics 2020. They lost a total of 9 over the years between 2016 and 2022. To date the results of the IBA have not been published. So for now it's not clear. They are the facts. Further, this is the current meaning of Swyer Syndrome: People with Swyer syndrome have female external genitalia and some female internal reproductive structures. These individuals usually have a uterus and fallopian tubes, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) are not functional. Instead, the gonads are small and underdeveloped and contain little gonadal tissue. These structures are called streak gonads. The streak gonadal tissue is at risk of developing cancer that is often hard-to-detect, so it is usually removed surgically. Swyer syndrome is also called 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis; the medical term “dysgenesis” means "abnormal development.
A look confirms working xy pub erty
Yes this doesn’t seem to be a case of Swyer syndrome at all.
They were cleared on the basis that males were allowed in female sports.
Wherever women speak the truth this failed male alcoholic is there to berate them.
Weird science.
Is Dr. Hilton a medical endocrinologist for people or a research biologist specialising in the African clawed frog?
This NGO is frequently cited by the British press. Does it have any physicians or medical doctors willing to speak future media briefings?
What did she get wrong, just out of curiosity?
We just need one of you (preferably the doctor) to get onto joe rogan and this would all be over in a heartbeat. Its just sheer numbers of uninformed people and the rest are woke.
....Joe Rogan has no influence over the Olympics..
The Russia Russia stuff is so utterly ridiculous.
It means in 2023 7 days before the Russian met imane in the ring they went to the independent indian lab to test imane. And they travelled back in time in a time machine to 2022 to submit another test which imane failed by another independent lab. Then came back to June 2023 waited until their Russian fighter lost and then showed the results of the second test.
And then as a side bar they decided to ban a taiwanees fighter whose in another weight division for 💩s and giggles.
Excellent presentation well done for protecting women's sports for my 8 year old daughter.
That's basically my conclusion. The timeline is ludicrous. The "Russians" are a combination of Greeks, Brits, Americans, Hungarians, Turks, Indians and I can work out one named Russian.
And they chose all this instead of a simple doping test falsification. Let's go with something that can be easily disproven at any moment by anyone. Makes perfect sense.
imagine your daughter making it to the olympics her life long dream, your whole family and extended family are over the moon and so proud only for her once in a lifetime opportunity to be stolen from a fucking man...OMG that poor girl who quit in 45secs breaks my heart.
Imagine you girl has a dream then to be told that she is a male . Sick you are sick