"Treasure lasts, but characters don't." That needs to be on a t-shirt, preferably surrounding a line-art graphic of one character looting the body of another. Maybe rephrased to, like, "Characters are temporary, but treasure is forever."
Hey, Mike. Great video - agree with most of your insights. You mentioned that you didn't really find Shadowdark easier to prep than 5e. Are there other TTRPG systems you've played that ARE easier to prep? I'm curious what those might be. Thanks!
This is how Detect Traps spell works in Shadow Dark. You get another player character to investigate an area you think a trap is on, and if the trap is sprung you have detected the trap. You know there was a trap. Your spell's material component "one player character, aware or unaware they are the material component for this spell'. Alternatively, animals can be used, including player character pets and other animal companions, special mounts, and even spell caster familiars. "Your cat familiar is going to see if there is a trap".
Fantastic Commentary --- Some of my Game Night people at my church had asked about trying out something like D&D (many have never played any tabletop RPGs) --- I have the Shadowdark Book already but will pickup the Quick Start Kit (just did) and print what I need --- Thanks for the Video! Has inspired me to give it a shot! 🙂
That's awesome that you are creating a game group at your local church, and bringing more people into the hobby at the same time! Cool on you and your players.
As someone who lived through the Satanic Panic during the 80s, hearing “some of the people at my Church want to try D&D/role playing” is both surreal to me, and extremely heartening. 👍
@@queenannsrevenge100 Yeah... I lived thru that too (played original D&D - Red Box - in Middle school in the late 1970s) and AD&D all through HS (early 1980s) --- I, fortunately, never felt any "satanic" experiences while playing (or reading the books, for that matter) --- I am Blessed to be in a church that already had a Game Night going when I joined over a year ago --- and some of the gamers even were/are D&D/Pathfinder players --- never at our church game nights tho... 🙂
@@queenannsrevenge100 As a side note --- I started playing Red Box D&D in our TAG (Talented and Gifted) Class in middle school. --- It was a Reward for getting all of our work done and projects done on time.... we approached it as Problem Solving built into a game with Dice and Monsters... 🙂 When people ask about TTRPGs, this is pretty much how I describe em.
@@EugeneVisloukhovsure. if you're online, use voice channel order for around the table initiative order (right of you is the person down the call). Downtime/carousing can get ridiculous if youre not careful. Otherwise trust your players! My players track torches. Even though open table sessions have rigid time limits, make sure you're enforcing what's in folks hands. You're not carrying a torch and climbing with both hands! I found the "escape the dungeon" homebrew table from the discord too generous if applied to a group. Strictly individual rolls on it OR come up with something else in case folks are bogged down at end of session and need to skidaddle! That's the general advice! My game uses Halls of Arden Vul and i went hard with homebrew for it so a lot of my further advice is kinda tailored for that.
old guy here. Only being able to backstab once, right at the beginning of the combat was the way we always ran it back in the day. I had a hard time getting my head around anything else when I got back to gaming with 5e. Much prefer Shadowdark at this point.
So I play Warmachine and my group just use facing and thus a Thief needs to be behind the enemy to get the backstab, so they can get it more often but have to maneuver to do it.
@@zednumar6917Nah, the designers did the math. Even sneak attacking every round isn't more powerful than other classes. I played back in the day too, and backstab was pretty terrible most of the time.
I loved Shadowdark, and I ran that campaign very differently than I did 5e. I really focused on dungeons and location based adventures. Especially multi level dungeons so the players would need to go back multiple times to get all the loot.
Thanks for all the Shadowdark content! It was such a relief to hear I wasn't alone in experiencing some of these pain points. Hearing your thought process around resolving them, and applying the Shadowdark rules to a broader campaign was fascinating!
Try Solodark as well! It's great and more gripping than you might first expect. Kelsey has two vids out on The Arcane Library channel running it with example play. I have done several sessions solo for myself during lunch breaks or as an after work activity and it's so much fun.
For me, a pretty involved chore for 5e games is translating monster stats from their normal stat block to a very short, Me-Friendly stat block. Shadowdark’s stat block is super-simple, and VERY similar to the way I keep 5e stat blocks. Kelsey’s writing style throughout the game, in fact, is EXTREMELY tuned in to the way I write and prep game sessions, which gave me an immediate affinity as I first read it. However, you’re right in that the prep part of the game which involves plot, encounters, background info, etc. does not get any simpler, because those are not related directly to the mechanics - there’s nothing a game system can do to reduce that part, that’s all down to the GM. Shadowdark to me just gets out of the way, meaning the remainder is the same no matter the game system - the “improv-prep.” 😃
Great insight in your experience with the game! As a new dm, it is nice to hear I am not the only one unsure about some of the rules. I don’t have a lot of experience, so coming up with alternatives on the fly is a bit daunting. Luckily I have a nice group to play with, but the light rules have some downsides. However, it’s been a great system for new players and myself, especially for players that find the complexity of 5e intimidating! It’s fast to get up and running, and things like turn order makes it easy to bring new players into the game from the jump! Definitely recommend it!
Playing in an open table game which is on Session 100 in just over 1 year. There have been 39 Player Deaths with most being L4 and below, but with on L7 going down. Three PCs have made it to L9 and about a dozen are spread across L7 and L8. Most players have several PCs. Personally I have a L7 Thief, L7 Wizard (RIP), L3 Wizard, 2 L3 Priests, and a L2 Fighter. Each of them has story threads and history developing around them. Great Fun!
I'm going to run SD for my co-workers, and it just occurred to me that The City Of Arches would be a perfect hub for the adventurers. Thanks for all your work and wisdom!
@@rodrigosardi08 Yeah, it's where they get to rest, trade, carouse, level up, etc. Even high fantasy towns rest on a population of desperate scrubs : )
I appreciate that the review gave the things you and your players liked - and that you said you loved Shadowdark - but that you also listed some of the negatives or issues you guys encountered. I’m running a campaign that is over 20 sessions deep and I have played in over 30 other sessions. I love the system - mostly for its simplicity and speed of play - but I really appreciate your experienced view as someone who has run it for a year.
I think it is worth mentioning: one of the reasons people find OSR games to take little to no prep is that they run adventures, such as Gardens of Ynn, that take little preparation beyond reading through the module once.
Nice, just wondered what was going on with the game and searched and found this a few hours after you published it. I've enjoyed it and I think your opening assessment that it nails old school in a modern way is the core aspect of it.
Excellent analysis, one which led me to tell my own experience as well. I did run SD almost as soon as it was released, online on Foundry VTT.Unfortunately my players didn't particularly liked it, they found it a washed away version of 5e, and they were particularly annoyed (better, pissed off) by the Always-on initiative, since they claimed that it was a lot like playing a board game like Hero Quest, only online. We tried to go on for a couple of months, but things didn't fixed at all, so we contestually decided to call it over. About all the other issues you have found, as my point of view (I started playing D&D with BECMI back in 1995) it's no big deal. Back then it was common practice to deal such things with a rule of thumb by the DM, and nobody ever complained. The ones eventually complaining today are those who approach this game with a previous knowledge of the 5e ruleset, hence constantly feeling in need to compare the two systems, willing or not. Man, I wish I could give it another try, you gave me fuel!
I’ve enjoyed your prep notes format. It’s been helpful for 5e or Shadowdark. The styles are different and prep should focus on different things. The random tables in Shadowdark are excellent, flavorful, and I’ve used them more than 5e’s tables. It sounds like 5e 2024 might step up their game with the random tables. Running Shadowdark has been a breath of fresh air for me. I’m fine making a ruling in the moment and prefer it for story pacing. I’m not fine looking up a rule and deciphering block text for 20-30 minutes.
I've been running Shadowdark for the same amount of time as you. I've run it both in-person and online, and I have to say that the light-tracking and turn-taking works WAY better in-person than at the screen. In-person people are sitting in turn order (since the highest initiative goes first and play proceeds clockwise) which means the GM can easily progress play simply by looking or pointing. People tend to be more focused at the physical table because even crawling turns whip around at a brisk pace (I've never had Shadowdark players have enough time/be bored enough to whip out their phones, for example - their turn is always coming up in a couple minutes). I found the turn-based activity in crawling encounters to be vitally important, because it keeps the characters active and progressing. When you can't just defer endlessly because it's *your turn right now* it leads to more interesting and risky interactions with the environment. One funny tactic that has come about is that the player with the highest initiative bonus always sits on my left, because that maximizes the chance that the whole party will get a turn before I do. Some might see that as brazen metagaming, but I prefer to see it as one more expression of how the characters more effectively use teamwork. I agree that the vibes-base XP system is a little *too* vibey. It also makes things awkward for games where the characters are not just mercenary treasure hunters - I'm running a game right now where they're spies and cutthroats secretly working for the Queen. Those sorts of goal-based (rather than reward-based) games need more non-treasure ways of advancing the characters.
So for non-treasure based experience can be goal focused. Create some goals, or have your players, and as they achieve them depending on difficulty award 1 to 3 experience per goal achieved.
Glad to hear this review of ShadowDark RPG. When it first came out, I had my doubts. But, the more I hear about it, the more good things I hear. Thank you for sharing your experiences and your well formed opinions about it.
Nice to see an extended play review. I have been running a SD campaign for a year now and I’m converting my long running home brew campaign to SD for the future. I’m absolutely sold on it. I agree that the xp is a little wonky. I cribbed this from a couple of Free League games and it works perfectly for SD. It averages about 5 xp per session. HR#4: Awarding Experience Points If the PC can answer ‘yes’ to any of the items below, its worth 1 XP each. Did you? Show up for the session. Explore a new dangerous/wonderous location. Gain and enemy who still lives. Gain a friend you can trust. Fulfill an oath, contract or complete a mission. Have a clever idea or action. Endanger yourself to help others. Avoid unnecessary violence. Find treasure. Defeat monsters.
Thanks for this review. I think it really speaks to the fact that ShadowDark can be used for long campaigns. I have found that at level 12 in 5e players are looking to do something new anyways, getting bored of their characters. ShadowDark RPG forever!
I think when people say "it's easier to run" or "you don't have to prep as much", they really mean that the procedures and random generation elements that are baked into the system will often do the heavy lifting of generating interesting moments while also providing the underlying tension associated with resource management. DM's just have a lighter narrative load in terms of motivating players to maintain a certain pace and make small but meaningful choices within a session. I could say "of course if you hack 5e to pieces you can get it running pretty smooth, if not more smooth than Shadowdark", but I hack Shadowdark to make elements of it smoother, so it's not much of a criticism of 5e lol. I borrow from Mausritter rules for death and being unconscious. Every point of damage below 0 is subtracted from your STR stat, and when your STR stat hits 0 you die. After you take damage to your strength, you must roll under whatever that new value is using a d20. If you go over, you go unconscious and require assistance from another player to regain consciousness. You can recover 1 point of strength after 1 day of rest, or all of your health after a week long rest.
For rolling on finding traps for the thief, I've seen some GMs rule that if the player explains what they're looking for like "I'm checking the floor plates for traps" and there's a trap there, they find it automatically. If they're doing a generic search around the room, then you roll a check. If it's a large room they specify a 10x10ft area of the room where they're looking for, or you could just abstract a reasonable number of turns it would take to search the room.
I had my players use the timers on their phones to track torches…it worked amazing. A player describing that his character was going to use a blowgun took a deep breath in - right when the timer went off! The attack was made in total darkness. All of the players still talk about how that mechanic made the game epic and brought it to their own 5e games.
It's been great to follow your campaign around the Gloaming and sad to see it go. When it comes to long-form campaign play, I feel like you ran it like a modern D&D yam-shaped adventure where the characters had to resolve the impending doom (and had a few options of going about it). What are your thoughts on running a more traditional OSR/lower-stakes game with opportunities for downtime? Do you think you would give Shadowdark the same review (particularly at high levels)? I'm looking to pivot into a game like that and the Shadowdark sessions we have run worked out well but I'm not convinced on the longevity of the game. I'm also considering a few classless systems to force players to interact with the world to improve instead of just waiting for a level-up. Also I think the lack of rules is called Rulings over Rules and is a feature not a bug. (just teasing you, to each their own!)
Thanks for this review, found it really helpful. For my part, I'd love to see the same sort of video but discussing Crown & Skull. That system has a lot of things that make me go "Wow, I'd love for someone who has actually run this a fair bit to analyze it, especially their experience with some of the system's more novel aspects." Been hard to find good info online.
My understanding of things like finding and disarming traps is - if your character would reasonably have the skills to do it then they can. So a thief would have the capability to spot and disarm a well hidden trap if he was looking for it but a cleric could not. But a cleric could reasonably spot and disarm and not very well hidden or designed trip wire. Stuff like that.
That Death Timer is basically part of the core rules (p89). When a character drops to zero, on their next turn they roll 1d4+CON modifer (min. 1), they die in that many rounds unless stabilized. Reducing the rounds remaining when additional damage is taken makes sense though.
Excellent review!!! Talk about crunchy we play PF1 (that campaign lasted 5 years!) and that is as crunchy as they come but we have all wanted to move to simpler systems and I'd love to play a shadowdark campaign..
For me the reason it’s faster to prep Shadowdark than 5e is bc I customize most monsters and npcs and i find every part of this process faster in Shadowdark. In general, prepping for both of them is pretty similar.
It'd be cool if you and your group would be interested in Dragonbane. I often hear Shadowdark mentioned in the same breath as Dragonbane, so it'd be neat to see your thoughts after a long campaign. Great series!
I am currently running a long campaign in shadowdark and the main character is the adventuring guild. This allows for the characters to die and a new to show up. I did add a homebrew that new characters are average level rounded up minus 1. This way the new characters are weaker, but only by 1 level.
Regarding your comment on prep. Many GMs focus on how we want to present a game. This influences our session/campaign prep. So, no matter the game, we need to feel comfortable with what we want to present to the players - some would even refer to this as 'covering the bases'. I'd challenge you to run west marches style - everything is dynamic, minimal prep, use some tables, be as surprised as your players when problems present themselves, and see how that resonates, or not, with you. Not saying one is better than the other, but if you always seem to drive a certain way, it often doesn't matter what car you're driving.
I'm an experienced 5e GM and I personally find Shadowdark FAR easier to prep and run. I think part of this is that it's much easier to create/find monsters to serve as potential combat encounters for the party. I don't have to worry about resistances and all of these other things when creating HB monsters. Following Kelsey's template for stat blocks is just much more encouraging than looking at a 5e monster as a template and trying to do the same. Also, with the characters being less powerful I don't have to do as much work to challenge them with potential combat encounters/monsters. I'm going to suggest that he is probably much better at running 5e than most because of his long experience doing so - which he says might be the case - because personally it's night and day to me and I ran 5e for several years. In-session, actual combat is also far speedier and easier to run.
On the thief's finding traps checks: I read the thief skill list as "IF you need to roll for any of these, you have advantage." Most traps are found automatically, but if the DM isn't sure the method would detect a trap, they can set a dc to roll against. Thieves would have advantage in that situation. At least that's my understanding.
I think some of the hurdles you have are why it’s easier to run. What happens to a character who is dying and then gets set on fire? I mean I’d rule that they die. You’re unconscious and on fire? Yeah that’s death. A lot of these gaps you talked about Kelsey said just use common sense. This is why I think it’s easier to run, not prep for, but run. I’m the ultimate arbiter of the session. Instead of stopping and looking up the exact rules because my player who wants to swing off a bannister, run across railing, and dive onto the banner to slide down it. I just make it up on the spot using common sense. I think it’s ironic for me to say this because I left 5e for pf2e stating the rules vagueness of 5e created inconsistency and uncertainty for players. Then after running pf2e for 2 years and watching my sessions slow down because we’re always looking up rules and new rules and remastered rules for everything, and then looking up the outcome based on degree of success and all the traits and how they effect the rules and blah blah blah. I realized how freeing that vague make it up as you go structure was. To the point I’ve dropped pf2e and I was considering going back to 5e but then I found Shadowdark. So tldr I think those are less issues and intended ways to play, which will require a lot of seasoned 5e or pf2e GMs to adjust to.
Reading Shadowdark really inspired me to look into the OSR and eventually find your channel. I love the principles of lazy DM prep and follow the dice (using random tables, oracle die, accept consequences, etc.). However, I haven't yet played Shadowdark yet as my players feel lightweight systems are D&D lite and are therefore lesser than the game we've been playing for 10 years. Even playing 1 shots can add to this feeling, as it cements the game as an in-between game (we played a one-shot of Mausritter, but the group lost enthusiasm when we tried to extend it into a campaign).
Regards initiative and turns, it’s meant to work in circle around the table so it should be simple to track when in person. VTT another story. I have simplified it further, one player rolls initiative till they lose then they pass it on. The players are only rolling against “boss” monsters. If the player wins the order is players-boss-minions, if the player loses boss-players minions. On a nat1 boss-minions-players. By having a very simple initiative I can alter it if a player acts to trigger combat in a way the should go first.
I ran a long form Red Sands campaign and my players really had a good time. A few of them grumbled about character talents once they were in the 5-6 lvl range. For me i just asked them what it was they were trying to do with their character and then craft a magic item that can do that (but make them quest for it).
I just got a copy of Shadowdark in mail today. I also got one called Crown & Skull that is worth checking out. Shadowdark is very nice in hardcover, i believe its a faux leather cover. Its very nice to hold, the design on front cover has a texture to it. This book is very very nice and cant wait to run this. ill prob add inspiration Hp :), to give players a little bit more of fighting chance. But will let them know that its a different rpg than 5e. Absolutely cant wait to run this.
I have the book and it looks good to me but my players are middle schoolers who like their characters and their 5E options and books. Maybe I'll get them to do a one shot.
Really insightful review, thank you! I think Shadowdark is easier to prep then 5e if you engage with the system on it's own terms. Cities are handled by equipment prices and carousing, travel is handled by the encounter tables - the only necessity is a well prepped dungeon. And opposed to 5e Adventures the Shadowdark Dungeons that you can find online can be run out of the box for the most part.
I think it's totally valid that since you have a strong system for prep that there wasn't a big difference between 5E and SD. I'd be interested to hear your comparison with your new campaign. My hypothesis is that it too will be similar prep. Also, if SD wasn't suited to longer campaigns, then neither was early D&D. I started playing with Holmes and then AD&D and we ran for years.
I think for backstab I'd say if flanking a foe, a Thief gets backstab. And/or = Distract Foe, make the appropriate Ability Check (Dex, Cha) depending on how the Thief is distracting a foe (this though would be a Move) and the DC would be DM's call depending on the circumstance.
I feel that XP is awarded to the player and then they spend it to improve the character. So if one character dies, the unspent XP is applied to the new character. We also typically bring new characters in at 1 level lower than the one that died. Or same level if you just want to switch characters.
Hey does anyone know if Mike has any Shadowdark live play videos posted anywhere?? I've just got the book and am planning on dipping my toes into Shadowdark with the free starter adventure "Citadel of the Scarlet Minotaur", and would love to see an example of the game in action ran by a seasoned GM.
I was curious at how you and uour players felt about combat. 5e has standardized combat options and to play with a grid. How did you handle player creativity when they did an action that is know in 5e and has no specific equivalent in SD (feint, disarm, help another, defensive if i’m not mistaken). Thanks
I think finding traps is a roll if the players are endanger, duress, or time crunch. Otherwise you don't roll. My thoughts also is the thief might get a bit more info on the trap if the info might be important if they don't have to make a roll. At least that is what I thought so they have advantage when they have to roll. Also I think if the trap is well hidden or something like that a roll must be made.
I just wish it was more convertable to old school modules. I really wanted to run the 1e Dragonlance campaign and it just wasnt able to carry the encounters.
I agree that the XP and leveling section is unclear and vague. Also, while rolling for talents is cool and keeps the system simple, I do feel like there could be say 50% variety to them and maybe a threshold where at higher levels you get access to more powerful talents.
"The monsters are upgrading faster than we are": Yes, but the monsters are also (probably) only around for one fight, so they need to be better to provide a challenge. Otherwise the game gets boring and grindy.
Wait, you're not allowed to make digital character creation tools? I already made Google Sheet analogue for Shadowdarklings. Pretty ironic considering I don't actually play RPGs.
i pretty much only run OSR games, but i always appreciate your perspective as a long time 5E GM. it's interesting that the two big complaints you had about aspects of the system with high cognitive load for the GM (always on initiative and real-time torches) were the first two things i decided to change when i ran it, for exactly the same reasons! i just made torches burn for 6 turns (as they do in OSR) and made sure to explicitly call out each time a turn passed in case anyone who hadn't yet declared their significant action for the turn could do so - which is something i'm in the habit of doing in all my other OSR games anyway. i don't think SD is going to ever supplant B/X as my main game, but i love the cursed scroll materials and have been incorporating a lot of that into my ongoing campaign, and i really appreciate how the flat math not only makes things a lot easier when running the game itself, it also makes the source material a lot more easily adaptable to other systems, including the traditional OSR variants. huge fan of the art and the quality of the physical materials as well. it's my first recommendation for anyone looking to get into OSR play from a 5E background.
I am in favor of Monsters being built differently than characters, but it can break immersion when that also includes humans/human-like NPCs. I prefer the idea of humans (or pc races) all using the same rules so that monsters feel more monstrous (like in Forbidden Lands)
Treasures last while characters don't... Hmmm monsters: "Find them! Kill them and loot their bodies! Throw them over the pit! I don't care just get it done!"
So I am of the firm opinion that Shadowdark needs no FAQ. It is designed for DM discernment and critical thinking. Some rules are purposefully vague to make you play the game your way. Hammering down and clarifying vague rules removes critical thinking from the equation. Remember you are a referee not an antagonist. When you run into a vague rule your question to create a ruling should be is it fair, is it fun? If both answers are yes that is a GOOD ruling. My Shadowdark plays very differently from yours, and that's ok. MY players are having a blast with it. We all have off this week so we are have a long session today because we are enjoying it so much. Shadowdark has reinvigorated me as a DM. I look forward to this game every time we play. I can't say that about other systems. I ran a Pathfinder game for 3 years and at the end i just wanted to be done. I wasn't having fun, as I couldn't challenge my players in any meaningful way which in turn really dampened my enjoyment. Shadowdark on the other hand gives me the tools to keep encounters fresh and interesting, the randomization helps keep me interested and excited to see what is rolled and how my players will interact to it. I have a difficult time creating random encounter charts so owning this book with all of the tables in it has really helped me. I think the tables alone are worth the price of the book and yet there is so much more that is fantasticly created.
Monster powerz should always be a step ahead of the PC’s and they should almost never have access to their skills or powers. It not like Amazon where everything is available to order or like Legos with endless modularity.
I never give human or human like enemies multiple attacks. Multiple attacks are for things that are weird and unexplainable. Monsters beyond anything mundane. But I run LotFP not Shadowdark
I would love for K.D. to come on and talk about a few of the issues you encountered.
I think that would be part of an awesome interview.
Seconded.
"Treasure lasts, but characters don't."
That needs to be on a t-shirt, preferably surrounding a line-art graphic of one character looting the body of another.
Maybe rephrased to, like, "Characters are temporary, but treasure is forever."
!remindme when this exists
Came to the comments to say exactly this.
Need this
Hey, Mike. Great video - agree with most of your insights.
You mentioned that you didn't really find Shadowdark easier to prep than 5e.
Are there other TTRPG systems you've played that ARE easier to prep?
I'm curious what those might be. Thanks!
I remember him saying Cypher/Numenera is very easy to run. Not sure about prep
I suggest ICRPG or MorkBorg {especially for their short monster stat blocks and magic item rules}
This is how Detect Traps spell works in Shadow Dark. You get another player character to investigate an area you think a trap is on, and if the trap is sprung you have detected the trap. You know there was a trap. Your spell's material component "one player character, aware or unaware they are the material component for this spell'. Alternatively, animals can be used, including player character pets and other animal companions, special mounts, and even spell caster familiars. "Your cat familiar is going to see if there is a trap".
In Shadowdark if you look for a trap in the right place you just find it. It's not complicated.
Fantastic Commentary --- Some of my Game Night people at my church had asked about trying out something like D&D (many have never played any tabletop RPGs) --- I have the Shadowdark Book already but will pickup the Quick Start Kit (just did) and print what I need --- Thanks for the Video! Has inspired me to give it a shot! 🙂
That's awesome that you are creating a game group at your local church, and bringing more people into the hobby at the same time! Cool on you and your players.
As someone who lived through the Satanic Panic during the 80s, hearing “some of the people at my Church want to try D&D/role playing” is both surreal to me, and extremely heartening. 👍
@@queenannsrevenge100 Yeah... I lived thru that too (played original D&D - Red Box - in Middle school in the late 1970s) and AD&D all through HS (early 1980s) --- I, fortunately, never felt any "satanic" experiences while playing (or reading the books, for that matter) --- I am Blessed to be in a church that already had a Game Night going when I joined over a year ago --- and some of the gamers even were/are D&D/Pathfinder players --- never at our church game nights tho... 🙂
@@queenannsrevenge100 As a side note --- I started playing Red Box D&D in our TAG (Talented and Gifted) Class in middle school. --- It was a Reward for getting all of our work done and projects done on time.... we approached it as Problem Solving built into a game with Dice and Monsters... 🙂 When people ask about TTRPGs, this is pretty much how I describe em.
couldn't agree more with everything you said. - shadowdwrk GM who is 130 sessions into an open table game.
Any Shadowdark-specific tips on running the open table? I'm choosing the system for my future OT right now, and Shadowdark is among the candidates
@@EugeneVisloukhovsure. if you're online, use voice channel order for around the table initiative order (right of you is the person down the call). Downtime/carousing can get ridiculous if youre not careful. Otherwise trust your players! My players track torches. Even though open table sessions have rigid time limits, make sure you're enforcing what's in folks hands. You're not carrying a torch and climbing with both hands! I found the "escape the dungeon" homebrew table from the discord too generous if applied to a group. Strictly individual rolls on it OR come up with something else in case folks are bogged down at end of session and need to skidaddle!
That's the general advice! My game uses Halls of Arden Vul and i went hard with homebrew for it so a lot of my further advice is kinda tailored for that.
I also had the "this feels like it did when I was a kid" feeling about the game.
old guy here. Only being able to backstab once, right at the beginning of the combat was the way we always ran it back in the day. I had a hard time getting my head around anything else when I got back to gaming with 5e. Much prefer Shadowdark at this point.
I have been in some 5E games where the Rogue managed to backstab over and over in combat and it just rubbed me wrong. It did not make sense.
So I play Warmachine and my group just use facing and thus a Thief needs to be behind the enemy to get the backstab, so they can get it more often but have to maneuver to do it.
@@zednumar6917 Because it's not backstab. It's more akin to precise attack.
@NelsinhoNecromacer it's BS. It makes rogues too powerful in combat.
@@zednumar6917Nah, the designers did the math. Even sneak attacking every round isn't more powerful than other classes.
I played back in the day too, and backstab was pretty terrible most of the time.
ShadowDark hype train! I'm here for it. 💚 Glad to see you covering this Mike.
I loved Shadowdark, and I ran that campaign very differently than I did 5e. I really focused on dungeons and location based adventures. Especially multi level dungeons so the players would need to go back multiple times to get all the loot.
Thanks for all the Shadowdark content! It was such a relief to hear I wasn't alone in experiencing some of these pain points. Hearing your thought process around resolving them, and applying the Shadowdark rules to a broader campaign was fascinating!
This series has been incredibly useful and entertaining. Sad it’s over, but glad it happened
Hearing that someone has been doing this for a year is fantastic. Makes me more inspired to try running a short campaign first to dip my toe into it
Try Solodark as well! It's great and more gripping than you might first expect. Kelsey has two vids out on The Arcane Library channel running it with example play. I have done several sessions solo for myself during lunch breaks or as an after work activity and it's so much fun.
For me, a pretty involved chore for 5e games is translating monster stats from their normal stat block to a very short, Me-Friendly stat block. Shadowdark’s stat block is super-simple, and VERY similar to the way I keep 5e stat blocks. Kelsey’s writing style throughout the game, in fact, is EXTREMELY tuned in to the way I write and prep game sessions, which gave me an immediate affinity as I first read it.
However, you’re right in that the prep part of the game which involves plot, encounters, background info, etc. does not get any simpler, because those are not related directly to the mechanics - there’s nothing a game system can do to reduce that part, that’s all down to the GM. Shadowdark to me just gets out of the way, meaning the remainder is the same no matter the game system - the “improv-prep.” 😃
I love all Sly Flourish videos. I enjoy many facets of Shadowdark. I can't wait to run things officially
Great insight in your experience with the game!
As a new dm, it is nice to hear I am not the only one unsure about some of the rules. I don’t have a lot of experience, so coming up with alternatives on the fly is a bit daunting. Luckily I have a nice group to play with, but the light rules have some downsides. However, it’s been a great system for new players and myself, especially for players that find the complexity of 5e intimidating! It’s fast to get up and running, and things like turn order makes it easy to bring new players into the game from the jump! Definitely recommend it!
Playing in an open table game which is on Session 100 in just over 1 year. There have been 39 Player Deaths with most being L4 and below, but with on L7 going down. Three PCs have made it to L9 and about a dozen are spread across L7 and L8. Most players have several PCs. Personally I have a L7 Thief, L7 Wizard (RIP), L3 Wizard, 2 L3 Priests, and a L2 Fighter. Each of them has story threads and history developing around them. Great Fun!
You and I came up with exactly the same solution to the damaged when down situation! So far, I've found it works well.
Thanks for all the Shadowdark content!
I'm going to run SD for my co-workers, and it just occurred to me that The City Of Arches would be a perfect hub for the adventurers. Thanks for all your work and wisdom!
I feel like City of Arches is very high fantasy compared to what the Shadow Dark system proposes.
@@rodrigosardi08 Yeah, it's where they get to rest, trade, carouse, level up, etc. Even high fantasy towns rest on a population of desperate scrubs : )
I appreciate that the review gave the things you and your players liked - and that you said you loved Shadowdark - but that you also listed some of the negatives or issues you guys encountered.
I’m running a campaign that is over 20 sessions deep and I have played in over 30 other sessions. I love the system - mostly for its simplicity and speed of play - but I really appreciate your experienced view as someone who has run it for a year.
I think it is worth mentioning: one of the reasons people find OSR games to take little to no prep is that they run adventures, such as Gardens of Ynn, that take little preparation beyond reading through the module once.
Nice, just wondered what was going on with the game and searched and found this a few hours after you published it. I've enjoyed it and I think your opening assessment that it nails old school in a modern way is the core aspect of it.
Excellent analysis, one which led me to tell my own experience as well. I did run SD almost as soon as it was released, online on Foundry VTT.Unfortunately my players didn't particularly liked it, they found it a washed away version of 5e, and they were particularly annoyed (better, pissed off) by the Always-on initiative, since they claimed that it was a lot like playing a board game like Hero Quest, only online. We tried to go on for a couple of months, but things didn't fixed at all, so we contestually decided to call it over.
About all the other issues you have found, as my point of view (I started playing D&D with BECMI back in 1995) it's no big deal. Back then it was common practice to deal such things with a rule of thumb by the DM, and nobody ever complained. The ones eventually complaining today are those who approach this game with a previous knowledge of the 5e ruleset, hence constantly feeling in need to compare the two systems, willing or not.
Man, I wish I could give it another try, you gave me fuel!
I’ve enjoyed your prep notes format. It’s been helpful for 5e or Shadowdark. The styles are different and prep should focus on different things.
The random tables in Shadowdark are excellent, flavorful, and I’ve used them more than 5e’s tables. It sounds like 5e 2024 might step up their game with the random tables.
Running Shadowdark has been a breath of fresh air for me. I’m fine making a ruling in the moment and prefer it for story pacing. I’m not fine looking up a rule and deciphering block text for 20-30 minutes.
I've been running Shadowdark for the same amount of time as you. I've run it both in-person and online, and I have to say that the light-tracking and turn-taking works WAY better in-person than at the screen. In-person people are sitting in turn order (since the highest initiative goes first and play proceeds clockwise) which means the GM can easily progress play simply by looking or pointing. People tend to be more focused at the physical table because even crawling turns whip around at a brisk pace (I've never had Shadowdark players have enough time/be bored enough to whip out their phones, for example - their turn is always coming up in a couple minutes).
I found the turn-based activity in crawling encounters to be vitally important, because it keeps the characters active and progressing. When you can't just defer endlessly because it's *your turn right now* it leads to more interesting and risky interactions with the environment. One funny tactic that has come about is that the player with the highest initiative bonus always sits on my left, because that maximizes the chance that the whole party will get a turn before I do. Some might see that as brazen metagaming, but I prefer to see it as one more expression of how the characters more effectively use teamwork.
I agree that the vibes-base XP system is a little *too* vibey. It also makes things awkward for games where the characters are not just mercenary treasure hunters - I'm running a game right now where they're spies and cutthroats secretly working for the Queen. Those sorts of goal-based (rather than reward-based) games need more non-treasure ways of advancing the characters.
Have you tried Hunter Mode from "Modes of play" section out of curiosity? "Defeated monsters grant XP equal to half their level (round down)"
So for non-treasure based experience can be goal focused. Create some goals, or have your players, and as they achieve them depending on difficulty award 1 to 3 experience per goal achieved.
Do you HAVE a document with all YOUR house rules you came up with? :)
Glad to hear this review of ShadowDark RPG.
When it first came out, I had my doubts. But, the more I hear about it, the more good things I hear.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and your well formed opinions about it.
Great review! Thank you for putting this video out!
Nice to see an extended play review. I have been running a SD campaign for a year now and I’m converting my long running home brew campaign to SD for the future. I’m absolutely sold on it.
I agree that the xp is a little wonky. I cribbed this from a couple of Free League games and it works perfectly for SD. It averages about 5 xp per session.
HR#4: Awarding Experience Points
If the PC can answer ‘yes’ to any of the items below, its worth 1 XP each.
Did you?
Show up for the session.
Explore a new dangerous/wonderous location.
Gain and enemy who still lives.
Gain a friend you can trust.
Fulfill an oath, contract or complete a mission.
Have a clever idea or action.
Endanger yourself to help others.
Avoid unnecessary violence.
Find treasure.
Defeat monsters.
Thanks for the extensive reflection on this game man. I'll be playing this with my group soon and it's great to know that is has longevity. :-)
Have you tried Crown & Skull yet? I'd be curious on how it compares to something like Shadowdark
Thanks for this review. I think it really speaks to the fact that ShadowDark can be used for long campaigns. I have found that at level 12 in 5e players are looking to do something new anyways, getting bored of their characters. ShadowDark RPG forever!
Great video. Super useful type of content.
Thanks for your time and energy Mike!
Hell yeah!!!🎉
Really hope to see something similar for Tales of the Valiant when you get done with that!
I like your “death save” rules. Really nice
Lots of good analysis.
I think when people say "it's easier to run" or "you don't have to prep as much", they really mean that the procedures and random generation elements that are baked into the system will often do the heavy lifting of generating interesting moments while also providing the underlying tension associated with resource management. DM's just have a lighter narrative load in terms of motivating players to maintain a certain pace and make small but meaningful choices within a session.
I could say "of course if you hack 5e to pieces you can get it running pretty smooth, if not more smooth than Shadowdark", but I hack Shadowdark to make elements of it smoother, so it's not much of a criticism of 5e lol.
I borrow from Mausritter rules for death and being unconscious. Every point of damage below 0 is subtracted from your STR stat, and when your STR stat hits 0 you die. After you take damage to your strength, you must roll under whatever that new value is using a d20. If you go over, you go unconscious and require assistance from another player to regain consciousness. You can recover 1 point of strength after 1 day of rest, or all of your health after a week long rest.
For rolling on finding traps for the thief, I've seen some GMs rule that if the player explains what they're looking for like "I'm checking the floor plates for traps" and there's a trap there, they find it automatically. If they're doing a generic search around the room, then you roll a check. If it's a large room they specify a 10x10ft area of the room where they're looking for, or you could just abstract a reasonable number of turns it would take to search the room.
I want shadowdark style character portraits in Shadowdarklings. Need a art jam to populate it.
I agree the physical book is nice to have. I used POD and divided the pdf into 3 sections to reflect a players handbook, DM guide and monster manual
I had my players use the timers on their phones to track torches…it worked amazing. A player describing that his character was going to use a blowgun took a deep breath in - right when the timer went off! The attack was made in total darkness. All of the players still talk about how that mechanic made the game epic and brought it to their own 5e games.
"Gamers will optimize their way out of the fun." No truer statement in gaming has ever been said.
It's been great to follow your campaign around the Gloaming and sad to see it go. When it comes to long-form campaign play, I feel like you ran it like a modern D&D yam-shaped adventure where the characters had to resolve the impending doom (and had a few options of going about it). What are your thoughts on running a more traditional OSR/lower-stakes game with opportunities for downtime? Do you think you would give Shadowdark the same review (particularly at high levels)? I'm looking to pivot into a game like that and the Shadowdark sessions we have run worked out well but I'm not convinced on the longevity of the game. I'm also considering a few classless systems to force players to interact with the world to improve instead of just waiting for a level-up.
Also I think the lack of rules is called Rulings over Rules and is a feature not a bug. (just teasing you, to each their own!)
Comment for the algorithm
Thanks for this review, found it really helpful. For my part, I'd love to see the same sort of video but discussing Crown & Skull. That system has a lot of things that make me go "Wow, I'd love for someone who has actually run this a fair bit to analyze it, especially their experience with some of the system's more novel aspects." Been hard to find good info online.
Fighters in SD scale in a deeply powerful way.
As the DM I was floored when on of my players ran through how his lvl 5 PC had a +12 to hit
My understanding of things like finding and disarming traps is - if your character would reasonably have the skills to do it then they can. So a thief would have the capability to spot and disarm a well hidden trap if he was looking for it but a cleric could not. But a cleric could reasonably spot and disarm and not very well hidden or designed trip wire. Stuff like that.
That Death Timer is basically part of the core rules (p89). When a character drops to zero, on their next turn they roll 1d4+CON modifer (min. 1), they die in that many rounds unless stabilized.
Reducing the rounds remaining when additional damage is taken makes sense though.
Excellent review!!! Talk about crunchy we play PF1 (that campaign lasted 5 years!) and that is as crunchy as they come but we have all wanted to move to simpler systems and I'd love to play a shadowdark campaign..
"I had some players… more of an experienced age?"
lol.
For me the reason it’s faster to prep Shadowdark than 5e is bc I customize most monsters and npcs and i find every part of this process faster in Shadowdark.
In general, prepping for both of them is pretty similar.
It'd be cool if you and your group would be interested in Dragonbane. I often hear Shadowdark mentioned in the same breath as Dragonbane, so it'd be neat to see your thoughts after a long campaign. Great series!
I am currently running a long campaign in shadowdark and the main character is the adventuring guild. This allows for the characters to die and a new to show up. I did add a homebrew that new characters are average level rounded up minus 1. This way the new characters are weaker, but only by 1 level.
Regarding your comment on prep. Many GMs focus on how we want to present a game. This influences our session/campaign prep. So, no matter the game, we need to feel comfortable with what we want to present to the players - some would even refer to this as 'covering the bases'. I'd challenge you to run west marches style - everything is dynamic, minimal prep, use some tables, be as surprised as your players when problems present themselves, and see how that resonates, or not, with you. Not saying one is better than the other, but if you always seem to drive a certain way, it often doesn't matter what car you're driving.
I'm an experienced 5e GM and I personally find Shadowdark FAR easier to prep and run. I think part of this is that it's much easier to create/find monsters to serve as potential combat encounters for the party. I don't have to worry about resistances and all of these other things when creating HB monsters. Following Kelsey's template for stat blocks is just much more encouraging than looking at a 5e monster as a template and trying to do the same. Also, with the characters being less powerful I don't have to do as much work to challenge them with potential combat encounters/monsters.
I'm going to suggest that he is probably much better at running 5e than most because of his long experience doing so - which he says might be the case - because personally it's night and day to me and I ran 5e for several years.
In-session, actual combat is also far speedier and easier to run.
On the thief's finding traps checks: I read the thief skill list as "IF you need to roll for any of these, you have advantage." Most traps are found automatically, but if the DM isn't sure the method would detect a trap, they can set a dc to roll against. Thieves would have advantage in that situation. At least that's my understanding.
I think some of the hurdles you have are why it’s easier to run. What happens to a character who is dying and then gets set on fire? I mean I’d rule that they die. You’re unconscious and on fire? Yeah that’s death.
A lot of these gaps you talked about Kelsey said just use common sense. This is why I think it’s easier to run, not prep for, but run. I’m the ultimate arbiter of the session. Instead of stopping and looking up the exact rules because my player who wants to swing off a bannister, run across railing, and dive onto the banner to slide down it. I just make it up on the spot using common sense.
I think it’s ironic for me to say this because I left 5e for pf2e stating the rules vagueness of 5e created inconsistency and uncertainty for players. Then after running pf2e for 2 years and watching my sessions slow down because we’re always looking up rules and new rules and remastered rules for everything, and then looking up the outcome based on degree of success and all the traits and how they effect the rules and blah blah blah. I realized how freeing that vague make it up as you go structure was. To the point I’ve dropped pf2e and I was considering going back to 5e but then I found Shadowdark.
So tldr I think those are less issues and intended ways to play, which will require a lot of seasoned 5e or pf2e GMs to adjust to.
Reading Shadowdark really inspired me to look into the OSR and eventually find your channel. I love the principles of lazy DM prep and follow the dice (using random tables, oracle die, accept consequences, etc.). However, I haven't yet played Shadowdark yet as my players feel lightweight systems are D&D lite and are therefore lesser than the game we've been playing for 10 years. Even playing 1 shots can add to this feeling, as it cements the game as an in-between game (we played a one-shot of Mausritter, but the group lost enthusiasm when we tried to extend it into a campaign).
Regards initiative and turns, it’s meant to work in circle around the table so it should be simple to track when in person. VTT another story.
I have simplified it further, one player rolls initiative till they lose then they pass it on. The players are only rolling against “boss” monsters. If the player wins the order is players-boss-minions, if the player loses boss-players minions. On a nat1 boss-minions-players. By having a very simple initiative I can alter it if a player acts to trigger combat in a way the should go first.
I'm dying to try this but there's only one person in my group that's interested.
Where can we find players?
I ran a long form Red Sands campaign and my players really had a good time. A few of them grumbled about character talents once they were in the 5-6 lvl range. For me i just asked them what it was they were trying to do with their character and then craft a magic item that can do that (but make them quest for it).
I just got a copy of Shadowdark in mail today. I also got one called Crown & Skull that is worth checking out. Shadowdark is very nice in hardcover, i believe its a faux leather cover. Its very nice to hold, the design on front cover has a texture to it. This book is very very nice and cant wait to run this. ill prob add inspiration Hp :), to give players a little bit more of fighting chance. But will let them know that its a different rpg than 5e. Absolutely cant wait to run this.
I have the book and it looks good to me but my players are middle schoolers who like their characters and their 5E options and books. Maybe I'll get them to do a one shot.
I'm going to play a Shadowdark oneshot this friday! Watched this video to hype up hehe
Really insightful review, thank you! I think Shadowdark is easier to prep then 5e if you engage with the system on it's own terms.
Cities are handled by equipment prices and carousing, travel is handled by the encounter tables - the only necessity is a well prepped dungeon.
And opposed to 5e Adventures the Shadowdark Dungeons that you can find online can be run out of the box for the most part.
I think it's totally valid that since you have a strong system for prep that there wasn't a big difference between 5E and SD. I'd be interested to hear your comparison with your new campaign. My hypothesis is that it too will be similar prep.
Also, if SD wasn't suited to longer campaigns, then neither was early D&D. I started playing with Holmes and then AD&D and we ran for years.
I loved hearing you call your solution for taking dmg while down elegant cause it’s exactly what I ruled when it came up :)
I think for backstab I'd say if flanking a foe, a Thief gets backstab. And/or = Distract Foe, make the appropriate Ability Check (Dex, Cha) depending on how the Thief is distracting a foe (this though would be a Move) and the DC would be DM's call depending on the circumstance.
I feel that XP is awarded to the player and then they spend it to improve the character. So if one character dies, the unspent XP is applied to the new character. We also typically bring new characters in at 1 level lower than the one that died. Or same level if you just want to switch characters.
The only way to have a game that people contribute and enhance, with tools or app or even FAQ, is with open source. Im with you on that one
Hey does anyone know if Mike has any Shadowdark live play videos posted anywhere??
I've just got the book and am planning on dipping my toes into Shadowdark with the free starter adventure "Citadel of the Scarlet Minotaur",
and would love to see an example of the game in action ran by a seasoned GM.
26:34 holy brolly those are some good rolls for 3d6!!!
I was curious at how you and uour players felt about combat. 5e has standardized combat options and to play with a grid. How did you handle player creativity when they did an action that is know in 5e and has no specific equivalent in SD (feint, disarm, help another, defensive if i’m not mistaken). Thanks
Ars longa, viva brevis. Artifacts endure, lives are short.
What is your discord handle? I can’t find it on patreon.
It’s next for me to try 😊
Have you tried others? I would to hear a comparison. Like shadow of the demon lord, or dc20 (not officially out)?
I think finding traps is a roll if the players are endanger, duress, or time crunch. Otherwise you don't roll. My thoughts also is the thief might get a bit more info on the trap if the info might be important if they don't have to make a roll. At least that is what I thought so they have advantage when they have to roll. Also I think if the trap is well hidden or something like that a roll must be made.
I just wish it was more convertable to old school modules. I really wanted to run the 1e Dragonlance campaign and it just wasnt able to carry the encounters.
I agree that the XP and leveling section is unclear and vague. Also, while rolling for talents is cool and keeps the system simple, I do feel like there could be say 50% variety to them and maybe a threshold where at higher levels you get access to more powerful talents.
yes!
Do we know if Shadowdark has any plans to be released in Spanish?
I have always thought that FAQ is pronounced EffAiKue. Highly informative video!
Sounds like a super high lethality campaign. Do you usually run hardcore games or is death less of a "problem" with shadowdark?
Some newer players ive ran it for got mad at the fact that some monsters have "multi-attack" but their PC's don't get more than 1 attack.
"The monsters are upgrading faster than we are": Yes, but the monsters are also (probably) only around for one fight, so they need to be better to provide a challenge. Otherwise the game gets boring and grindy.
Wait, you're not allowed to make digital character creation tools? I already made Google Sheet analogue for Shadowdarklings. Pretty ironic considering I don't actually play RPGs.
Is Shadowdark high fantasy or low fantasy?
i pretty much only run OSR games, but i always appreciate your perspective as a long time 5E GM. it's interesting that the two big complaints you had about aspects of the system with high cognitive load for the GM (always on initiative and real-time torches) were the first two things i decided to change when i ran it, for exactly the same reasons! i just made torches burn for 6 turns (as they do in OSR) and made sure to explicitly call out each time a turn passed in case anyone who hadn't yet declared their significant action for the turn could do so - which is something i'm in the habit of doing in all my other OSR games anyway. i don't think SD is going to ever supplant B/X as my main game, but i love the cursed scroll materials and have been incorporating a lot of that into my ongoing campaign, and i really appreciate how the flat math not only makes things a lot easier when running the game itself, it also makes the source material a lot more easily adaptable to other systems, including the traditional OSR variants. huge fan of the art and the quality of the physical materials as well. it's my first recommendation for anyone looking to get into OSR play from a 5E background.
Do Odyssey of the Dragonlords next
I am in favor of Monsters being built differently than characters, but it can break immersion when that also includes humans/human-like NPCs. I prefer the idea of humans (or pc races) all using the same rules so that monsters feel more monstrous (like in Forbidden Lands)
Is there a specific point where the characters aren't as likely to die?
Thief - "Unaware of your attack" - if in doubt for interpretation, roll "SURPRISE"...adapt that into your roll.
Treasures last while characters don't... Hmmm monsters: "Find them! Kill them and loot their bodies! Throw them over the pit! I don't care just get it done!"
So I am of the firm opinion that Shadowdark needs no FAQ. It is designed for DM discernment and critical thinking. Some rules are purposefully vague to make you play the game your way. Hammering down and clarifying vague rules removes critical thinking from the equation. Remember you are a referee not an antagonist. When you run into a vague rule your question to create a ruling should be is it fair, is it fun? If both answers are yes that is a GOOD ruling. My Shadowdark plays very differently from yours, and that's ok. MY players are having a blast with it. We all have off this week so we are have a long session today because we are enjoying it so much. Shadowdark has reinvigorated me as a DM. I look forward to this game every time we play. I can't say that about other systems. I ran a Pathfinder game for 3 years and at the end i just wanted to be done. I wasn't having fun, as I couldn't challenge my players in any meaningful way which in turn really dampened my enjoyment. Shadowdark on the other hand gives me the tools to keep encounters fresh and interesting, the randomization helps keep me interested and excited to see what is rolled and how my players will interact to it. I have a difficult time creating random encounter charts so owning this book with all of the tables in it has really helped me. I think the tables alone are worth the price of the book and yet there is so much more that is fantasticly created.
Monster powerz should always be a step ahead of the PC’s and they should almost never have access to their skills or powers. It not like Amazon where everything is available to order or like Legos with endless modularity.
I never give human or human like enemies multiple attacks. Multiple attacks are for things that are weird and unexplainable. Monsters beyond anything mundane. But I run LotFP not Shadowdark
I was 9 minutes into the video before I realized this was not about Blades in the Dark.
Blades & SD are my favourite systems at the moment.