Surviving the impossible turn.
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- Demonstrating the proper technique in a Cessna 182 for returning to the airport environment in the event of a power loss on takeoff.
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I llearned 2 kinds of turnbacks in 1995 from Emergency LowManeuvering channel (Bush Pilot CFI). We had a blue line for Vglide speed, And an Altimeter Altitude Marker too. Programed how and altitude to turnback if engine failed. Cherokees we used 700 agl. Cessna 600 agl EFATO practice. Nose down, turn headwind 45 bank, call, flaps, slips if, cut mixture and flaps when landing. 4, 600 feet long runway. My CFI had to turnback 2 Cherokees as cargo pilot on old cherokee 6 in south america, so he learned them for real.
I've practiced this all the time in Decathlon. I have successfully made this turn from 300' by offsetting my takeoff to one side of the runway. But I have set my personal limitation at 600' to give myself more room. Plus I don't think you ever mentioned the difference between an idling prop with the engine running vs an actual dead stick with the prop windmilling. There is a huge reduction glide performance. Go up and actually shut the engine the off. The first time I did this I was shocked at how much reduction in glide there was.
First video ever showing The Panic Pull stalls causes and 4 kinds of EFATO/ROTOT with actual landings on a 3,500 feet of runway only with 16knots tailwind landings. ruclips.net/video/1wd36uFPjbg/видео.html
I'm glad someone is willing to talk about the impossible turn. Too many pilots tell me to not even THINK about doing it! I just want to know the facts so I can make up my own mind.
RIGHT. My EFATO and turnbacks CFI said: IGNORANCE IS NOT THE ANSWER, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM.
@@CFITOMAHAWKThat was me, hi Victor. Good student you were..
Good video. I used to teach EFATO turnbacks on Cherokees, Cessnas, Grummans and Tomahawks even at night when CFI in 1990's. Houses all around airport. CFITOMAHAWK poster below posted about it. I could not do that angle take off great idea due buildings on both sides of runways. It is a great way of doing them from 500 agl on most of the airplanes above mentioned. In 1994 i had to do a real turnback from 700 agl on a Cherokee due i put carburetor cleaner on tanks and that released a lot of crap into the fuel filter....... Ooops! No more..
When you signed my copy of Dangerous Fights, you wrote in there “Keep your speed up” and it certainly holds true. I might have to steal it as a sign-off line
Hi Kerry. Nice video and good reminders. I would not presume to argue any point (you have a lot more experience than I do), but I do want to just point out a couple of things you didn't have time to mention or highlight. The startle factor: Your son knew what was going to happen, and managed to react immediately. In the real world there has been found to be a delay, which you did not account for in this experiment. Briefing for the eventuality might help and you did discuss that however. But, with even a small startle factor, even 500ft might not be enough. Second: The offset departure. This obviously ONLY works at an uncontrolled, aerodrome and during a VFR departure, without other planes to conflict with. Many departures will make this impossible, and if one uses your method, at those altitudes, it might work out a lot different. That 100-200 foot offset might make the difference to hitting those buildings. Next, the proverbial ditch. Think what happened to Mr. McSpadden. They almost had it made, but hit the ditch. If one turns back, by the time you roll out you are out of options given how low you are. If there's a ditch, you're done. Going straight ahead gives you a lot more time to look out for the 'ditch' and land away from it. And the last think I can think of immediately is the difference between a 'similated' thrust loss and complete loss - maybe with the prop stopped and creating a lot more drag. Everything will be different and the perfectly trained plan turns into a 'plane-wreck'. Just sayin. You did say it but the implications of the video is that maybe this is something to consider. Many other aviation experts are trying their absolute best to get this out of people's heads even as a possibility.
All very good points. In regards to the startle factor, this can be eliminated somewhat by training yourself to have a plane for an engine loss on every takeoff and have the mindset that you're surprised when the engine doesn't fail. Now of course it's difficult to be this disciplined on every takeoff (complacency is the killer) but you can try. As far as the offset is concerned if you drift off the runway centerline by a few hundred feet no one will even notice or care, even at a controlled field. I'm not saying you need to make an aggressive turn after liftoff, just ease over one way or another. And having looked at the area you're turning back to is key. If the end of the runway you're turning back to is full of buildings or a deep ditch maybe turning back isn't the best plan. And again, planning is key. You need to make sure you're turning back to a better area to land in than the one you're facing (straight ahead) so if you come up short you're still in a more survivable situation. But the big thing is that we've been telling pilots not to turn back to the runway for years and they are still doing it. I just wanted to try to give the pilot who decides to turn back some tips to help him survive. I do wish I'd spent more time talking about the startle factor though.
Practice Take Off Pushdowns every few take offs. Before a partial power ROTOT. At 200 agl, nose down with full power on , and pull up slowly. If Crosswind nose down towards it. Take Off Pushdowns make you see the areas in front better too. Do before RoToT and EFATO Turnbacks..
As a new pilot that had my first emergency landing, thank you for sharing this. This will save someone's life one day.
Good take off method to angle 20 degrees or more to side after Vr. But it has to be done with the crosswind if any, So you turn to headwind turn when turnback. Turnbacks need 40-45 bank at Vglide. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. Done also on double flyovers, Circling Approaches and Box Canyon Turns too. 2 kind of Turnbacks i learned in 1995. Teardrop and Hook shaped turnback too.
Heyyy Victor...
Great job Connor on that landing! Thanks Kerry, I learned something again!
I KNOW 4 more pilots plus me that had partial power engine down on initial climb from 300 agl and up and we all landed back with only one that flatten a tire. For every ignorant that didnt want to learn the Vglide 45 Turnback, did it wrong, and crashed, there are about 5 or 10 pilots that did turnback and didnt crash. And MacSpadden was killed by a turback ignorant owner flying it that on top of turning wrong, also pop the landing gear out when too low. Owners do that, not experts like MacSpadden.
in my 1995 Turnback training. C182 we used with full tanks and 2 men on board, we used 70 knots Vglide, 45 degr. bank and pulled the prop lever. 80 and milder bank is too wide a turn. On C172 we used 60 knots only.
The main goal is to not stall. I use 80 knots and full flaps to ensure that. Remember getting back to the runway is great if you can do it but all you really need to do is get to anywhere you can make a landing you can walk away from.
@@KerryDMcCauleyTry it with the real Vglide 45 steps. Vglide and 45 bank. 70 knots for C82 is safe at 45 bank.
@@KerryDMcCauley This was my CFI teaching 4 kinds of EFATO and Emergency Low Maneuvers. First ever to do that. 1995. 4 Real landings on 4k feet long runway with 16knots winds. No BS like others still do. I took that training in 1995. We dont BS. We are Puerto Ricans. We like to do hard things. Glad some Americans like you like to do hard maneuvers too. ruclips.net/video/94li1apG-aI/видео.html
Good to use angled take offs in the direction of the wind. Then turn headwind if Turnback. Most engine fails are partial power. You need to pull some carb heat and pull the mixture a bit too while keeping Vglide speed then turnback over 500 agl. But if engine is surging change tanks and fuel pump on too.
Great point!
@@KerryDMcCauley This was my CFI teaching 4 kinds of EFATO and Emergency Low Maneuvers. First ever to do that. 1995. 4 Real landings on 4k feet long runway with 16knots winds. No BS like others still do. I took that training in 1995. We dont BS. We are Puerto Ricans. We like to do hard things. Glad some Americans like you like to do hard maneuvers too. ruclips.net/video/94li1apG-aI/видео.html
Right up front I am not an aviator - not because i don't want to be one but due to medical issues. One of the best pieces of information I heard recently was to have the attitude of "when" the engine fails and not "if" on pre take-off briefing. That way you are ready for it and your reaction time is quicker in unloading the wing. I have followed you for years through "Dangerous Flights" and always respected your prospective on safe flying . Keep them coming Kerry
👍✅ Tks Kerry
Very informative and I appreciate where this technique might be the best option such as taking off runway 16 at KPWK. Not favorable to landing straight ahead.
Wow incredible technique Kerry
It works, just have to keep your speed up!
@@KerryDMcCauley Its a Vglide 45 bank turn.
Adding an AOA gauge is also beneficial so you know how much margin the wing has regardless of the other variables (assuming it is calibrated of course). Allows you to mostly ignore the airspeed indicator...
An AOA is a great tool. I've only used one on the jet but would love to test one out in my 182 or Queen Air and see how accurate it is.
Love it! The 3 golden rules whatever else is happening:
1. Don't stall the airplane
2. Don't stall the airplane
3. Don't stall the airplane
This all works out differently when your engine is dead for real and the prop looks like its stuck in cement.
You are correct.
Great for those that have an aerobatic aircraft, particularly a Decathalon, and have time to practice it as a precision maneuver in all types of weather and GG/load conditions. For the other 99.95 of pilots, not so much. What videos like this prove is that for most pilots, The Turn ain’t easy and the safe route is to not try it.
I agree that in most cases pilots shouldn't try it. My issue is that no matter how often we say that, pilots still try it when faced with the real thing and most of the time get killed in the attempt. Not talking about it isn't working.
I’m going for a field, parking lot or maybe a road.
Turning back to the airport and try to make the runway is not good.
I don't say that you should try and turn bak to the airport. only that if you do you need to not stall. I also say that if halfway through the turn you see someplace to land that will allow you to survive you should take it.
As regards achieving the slowest possible flying speed for an emergency off airport landing the thing that was always drummed into me is that it's much better to run into the far hedge at stall speed than the near hedge at flying speed.
That is certainly true, but my point was once you have the field or wherever you've chosen to land made you want to slow down as much as possible before touchdown. I've just seen to many videos of pilots landing off airport with their flaps up!
Thanks Kerry. Very informative video and something I will try to incorporate into my flying.
This trilingual Aerobatics CFI taught 5 kinds of EFATO on runway too, not just at 2k feet high in 1990's and did this crazy video in 1995. He was my Bush Pilot CFI too. See this 40 minutes video.. No BS. He never crashed in 11 emergencies.. ruclips.net/video/1wd36uFPjbg/видео.html
Thanks, I'll check it out!
First video ever showing The Panic Pull stalls causes and 4 kinds of EFATO/ROTOT with actual landings on a 3,500 feet of runway only with 16knots tailwind landings. ruclips.net/video/1wd36uFPjbg/видео.html I did this video in 1995. Airspeed indicators for Vglide and when flaps NEEDED too.
Last month my instrument instructor had engine out just after turning Xwind so... roughly 800AGL. With a 20kt tailwind he had plenty of energy to get back.
Energy is key!
Kerry - the problem is that now you have shown your kids that they can do it. And they think that "because we trained for this" that they can do it. My question to you is: If there is a 100% chance that they could land off field and live to tell about it, versus an 99% chance that they could turn around and be OK...BUT if they happen to hit that 1% they are dead. No doubt. Which is the least risk? McSpadden at AOPA also thought he could do it and (like you) advocated for turning around "because he was that good." Now...he's dead and not ever coming home. I went there. I flew it. Same airport, same path. The totally open options that he passed up are astounding. He could have put it in "ANY" field and we would have never even heard about it.
This is where your message needs re aligned. When it comes to your kids, tell them to take the sure thing. I tell mine every day: "I don't care where you put it. Open the door, step out and call me. Wherever you put it - and however you damaged it, I can get it out and I can fix it." See the difference? TAKE THE SURE THING!
Another dead couple in OKC over the weekend tried to take your advice and tried to turn around. They both burned alive in their plane because it didn't work out. They had numerous very nice options in front and to the left that were "sure thing." I am going there this weekend to fly their flight and show what the correct answer was, versus what they bit off on. I know you're gonna say that he screwed it up because he hadn't trained for it like you showed. WRONG. He was a new private pilot and had actually been trained (encouraged) to turn around. You are a smart guy, I'd like to hear what you have to say on this. It isn't worth it. Take the sure thing! OFF FIELD IS MY FIRST CHOICE!
I totally agree Dan. The problem is that no matter how much we tell pilots not to try and turn back to the airport they are still doing it and getting killed in the process. So having a "just say no" slogan isn't working. And I did say that if you have a good off field option, or even a crappy but survivable option, you should take it and not worry about the plane. But you can't fight human nature. When faced with nothing but building and trees a big percentage of pilots will try and turn back no matter what we or anyone say. So what's the solution?
Richard was a good friend of mine and I'm devastated by the loss. But he probably wasn't the one flying the owner probably was and like a mentioned in the video, aircraft owners are more likely to turn back because they want to save their baby.
@@KerryDMcCauley Why don’t you do a video - same airport, same runway, same kid and show the straight ahead open options that were available? Why focus on the impossible? Richard was flying the plane. He passed up 3 opportunities to abort before it ever got in the air. It was a sick engine and he knew it. Once in the air he passed up numerous perfect options just because he had “gone thru training”. I don’t teach my kids stalls or spins. I teach avoid. The airplane is disposable. You’ve taught your kid that he can do it and now he thinks he can. It’s the wrong conditioning especially over flat WI where you could put it anywhere.
It’s a pretty rare airport that doesn’t offer something usable just ahead (including water)
Flying is inherently dangerous, so your example of taking the 100% chance versus the 99% chance doesn't work.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder You’re completely missing the point and embarrassing yourself. I would just go back to your losing corner now.
Don't forget that for a sucessful "impossible turn" you have to pRACTICE until it's ingrained into your takeoff plan. . Then you'll be ready and steady. Know what speed you need, remember flaps, judgement on altitude above ground and sink rate.
Love how you “drifted” off to the right with an, idling prop giving yourself every advantage. Try it flying centerline like people are taught with a dead prop (from a simulated seized engine). See how far you make it then. With the speed from the dive at a 45 degree angle you’re going to end up a smoking hole.
My EFATO and turnbacks CFI said: IGNORANCE IS NOT THE ANSWER, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM.
Glad you pulled that off safely, otherwise you would have been analyzed by the Dan Gryder Safely Board!
There's not much to analyze. I'll give it to you here so you can apply it to the next one: Shouldn't tried it with guaranteed options in front. Tried it anyway. Almost made it. Dead.
First you better practice a maneuver i called "Take Off Pushdowns" every few take offs. At 200 agl, nose down with full power on , and pull up slowly. No Panic Pull on it. If Crosswind nose down towards it a bit. Take Off Pushdowns make you see the areas in front better too.Before any other take off engine outs. Take Off Pushdowns make you see the landing areas in front better too. Do before any ROTOT and EFATO Turnbacks. Keep full power, dont cut power at 200 agl.
You will get acceleration towards ground on it, but it makes you brave to avoid pulling up Panic Pull that kills pilots. You will get used to see that nose down even if you dont like it. Creates bravery in you. Pilots cannot be panicky chickens..
I study every airport I will potentially fly into on Google maps. If there are no good engine out alternatives for takeoff, I choose another airport. There are almost always choices. I know exactly where my plane is going when the engine out occurs at least to 1200 feet AGL. I brief the engine out scenario before each takeoff. I don't want to be trying to pick a spot right after TO. I fly a 182, but unless I'm at least 1000 feet AGL and the winds are favorable, or at least not unfavorable, I'm going down at one of my chosen spots. Thanks.
You're doing it exactly right. Most pilots don't look at what's off the end of the runway their using and are unprepared if the worst happens.
Far too low rolling out of the turn. It’s a massive gamble. If you’re even a second too late starting the turn, you’re dead. In a real world scenario, it would take you minimum 3 seconds to react. You will not make it. And even if you think you can train yourself to react immediately, if there’s a 50 ft obstacle, you’re hitting it.
Everything you say is correct. But no matter how many times we say not to do it, pilots are still attempting it. Better to practice how to do it without stalling than not at all. I still tell Connor to land straight ahead if he can.
@@KerryDMcCauleyBelieve me I understand the temptation. The problem isn’t so much about stalling but actually making the runway without hitting a ditch or obstacles. McSpadden didn’t stall but he did hit a ditch. That’s a gamble I’m unwilling to take and I hate to see fellow pilots being tempted by this improbable maneuver. Yes in some cases it’s possible. But I don’t wanna risk my life for a maneuver that works 9/10 times. I wanna do the maneuver/procedure that works 10/10 times. If McSpadden’s death is not a clear lesson for the rest of us, I don’t know what could be. Just my two cents. Fly safe.
It's shocking how much altitude you lose in that turn. But that's probably also due to full flaps.
Mostly due to the steep dive in order to maintain airspeed which was the point of the exercise. If you try and do a level turn or one with a shallow dive your airspeed will bleed off quickly, making a spin likely.
@@KerryDMcCauleyI really wish we could see a comparison with a turnback with no flaps. Putting flaps down immediately is a very fishy piece of advice I feel. The point about additional stall protection is questionable in my mind (yes, the stall speed increases, but they also act as speed brakes, so actual speed decreases and it's questionable if safety margin goes up or down), but also if you see a great field - the chance of you reaching it is much slimmer. I'd really not want my flaps down until I'm sure I've made whatever I'm making, and you tell us to put the flaps down before we even know what we are trying to make. I really don't think that's such a great idea.
@@alk672You can’t argue with the laws of physics. The effects of flaps on stall speed is shown in black and white, if you need to re-read it sir. It’s capable of, what it’s capable of, not what you _think_ it’s capable of.
@@johnqdoe where am I arguing with laws of physics?..
This is an interesting position to take. Somehow I got into watching airplane videos and, if I recall correctly, Dan Gryder and Juan Browne take the position "Don't try the impossible turn."
I'm curious about the legal and ethical concerns of practicing this at a low altitude, above populated areas.
The issue with this teaching. 500 ft will be a different distance from the runway each and every day. You try this on a 90 deg day in the south you will NEVR make it back from miles away from the airport, on a 30 deg day you might. Going straight ahead everyday is ok :)
Every year pilots are doing it and dying, because people keep telling them they can. Not taking into account the reaction to a true engine out vs knowing its coming, is the difference and why this is terrible advice, bad teaching, and bad for aviation. you want everyone to keep bank angle, navigate to the airport, monitor stall speed, not stall, and do flaps, all in an emergency situation. As having crashed a plane from an engine out on takeoff and walked away due to NOT taking this advice, I respectfully disagree and pray no one actually listens to this. Push the nose over, land straight ahead and walk away. This idea is crazy and like all the others before you, will kill you.
This is dangerous and foolish.
You are correct, but we've been telling pilots that for years and they are still doing it. So what's the solution?
Teach people not to do the thing that kills them. This is not rocket science. @@KerryDMcCauley
NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!
First, during the SIMULATED event the engine is still turning. If the engine is NOT running, and even if the propeller is still windmilling, it will STILL be causing drag. If the engine is seized those blades are PURE DRAG.
Second, the majority of pilots have a very poor understanding of basic aerodynamics, particularly stall characteristics. That includes a huge number of flight instructors out there.
Just because you teach it does not mean they'll understand it. We've got instructors doing slow flight and the students don't even know what the purpose is and frequently neither do the instructors.
I'm no longer teaching but I would NEVER teach this. Straight ahead or closest direction to the best field. Period.
The point of the exercise wasn't to teach pilots to turn back to the runway but to show them how to keep from stalling if they choose to. We've been telling pilots to land straight ahead for decades and they keep attempting the turn back even if what's in front of them is survivable. And I do say multiple times in the video if what's in front of you is survivable, take it.
@@KerryDMcCauley
When the LOC rate drops to drops to a couple times a year instead of every four days then I'd say there's a good chance of survival. Until then, it should be taught to be as taboo as flight into IMC.
@@SkyhawkFlyer The biggest problem I have with the whole topic is that we've been telling pilots not to do it over and over but human nature keeps taking over and I don't think we can change that. I do think that talking about it more will get pilots thinking about and showing them how steep they have to dive in order to keep from stalling might make them rethink the turn. When I check out pilots at my dropzone the first thing we do is go over loss of power options on takeoff. We actually go out and drive around the areas off the end of each runway and look at the landing options because I don't want them to turn around. The main problem is most pilots don't look at their land off options at all before takeoff (I'm as guilty at the next guy on that)
@@KerryDMcCauley
It won't get any better, unfortunately. As a former instructor and now seller of training materials, I'm seeing a growing number of unprepared students and worse, an increasing number of poorly trained instructors who often understand as little as their students.
There needs to be a serious "come to Jesus" moment between the NTSB and FAA on changing how instructors are examined on their initials. Furthermore, I think it's ludicrous a sport pilot flying gyrocopters must undergo a one and one Flight Review while an instructor remains current with nothing more than an online course and absolutely no review of their skills and performance in what they're teaching in, let alone their instructional knowledge.