I just wanna say that even if the diagram doesn’t match up perfectly this is a great video. These videos are quite enjoyable! They have come a long way.
a) Maserati makes garbage. b) The De Tomaso Pantera was better than most Italian cars due to having a simple reliable American high-performance engine. c) Maserati would have been better off focusing on making a competent & reliable sedan if that was the market they sought, rather than making garbage like the bi-turbo. d) If Maserati wanted to make an Italian high-performance car, they should have paid attention to what Alfa Romeo was making, as some of their cars were examples of good design & other examples of very bad design.
Audi 1.8t is a 5 valve and when that timing belt breaks that timing belt u need to remove the entire front end to change you’ll be changing all 20 valves
Actually this was only in the car world. Some WW2 war planes already had advanced engine technologies such as electronic fuel injection, turbo charging, super charging including sequential systems with turbo super charging and sequential twin turbo. It took 30- 40 years after the war for this technology to become available for us plebs.
@@AnonyMous-gt8vq I call it bullshit to airplanes in WW2 having ELECTRONIC fuel injection. They had mechanical one, being in use since 1906, but mechanical fuel injection is an niche technology in petrol cars, (Diesel engines use ir since the 20's) the carburetor is just a better option for most applicarions. First use of EFI was in cars; in the 50's, even if it didn't really took of until the 80's. Superchargers were uses in car racing since the 20's and were commonplace in F1 before ww2, desappearing after the war due regulations. Turbocharging was indeed the technology mostly associated to the aircraft industry until the seventies. Turbocharged diesel trucks were built in Switzerland just before WW2, though.
@@Boredoutofmywits Indeed, you are correct sir. Fuel injections was mechanical in WW2. I would recommend to to anyone who is interested in the topic to check out the channel Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles. He goes over various WW2 planes and cars over the war in exhaustive detail. His videos are well sourced with mostly primary sources and secondary sources if primary are not available. A greats resource for learning about this stuff.
The VW 20v was pretty stout too. I've had my 2001 Audi A4 for 16 years now. I turned it into a S4 clone but kept the 1.8 20v. it's almost stock internally except for Pauter rods and Schrick cams and supertech valvetrain. It's got a cast stainless manifold,tial v band hot side housing on a GT 35R. It's put down a hair over 500 to all 4 wheels since about 2007 and ran well in the 10's on street tires and pump gas with a shot of meth injection. I recently pulled it apart to freshen it up and put a twin disc clutch and a 6spd swap. When I pulled the bottom end apart it was mint. I could've reused the bearings after close to 90k miles at around 400-450 crank hp in street trim. It's crazy how stout the thing is. But I bumped it up to 2L with new hardware and mahle pistons, newer turbo with a billet wheel and it a lot faster and quicker to spool. So hopefully I have a clutch to hold 600+ AWD 😲
If the trend of long stroke under square engines keeps going 5 valves could make a comeback. I imagine the trend back to 4 valves has to do with decreased Rev range and increased torque. The 4 valve setup is likely cheaper and is easier to engineer for some kind of coherent motion of the intake charge like a tumble or swirl motion. But it's also being found that long stroke small bore engines are thermodynamically more efficient. Be it by a smaller swirl or tumble radius or just better surface to volume ratios at the crank angles that are important. Not sure if it's a burn thing or a heat dissipation thing. But new engines may push the stroke up near 100mm and have bores in the low 80mm range. If these limits are pushed then a 5 valve setup could be used to bring the valve area to cylinder volume ratio back up. I just have to wonder if the return on airflow is worth the smaller bore or if 4 valves with slightly more bore is the better compromise.
I used to work on one of those that was used as a race bike , pro stock. Never forget spending two weeks painstakinly rebuilding it and going to Brands Hatch . Out went Andy for practice laps, came back in and i retentioned the new drive chain . Off he went agin for more practice laps , ten i saw him coasting , he came to the tunnel to go back to the pits and i could hear this tinkling noise , yes , the valves , oh how i hated that engibe ))))))))) , owo1 , still have nightmares about that one ))))))
As turbos are now more effective at lower engine revs, 4 valves are enough. There has to be a playoff on road vehicles of reliability/durability over performance. Along with fuel consumption now being an almost overriding factor. When we consider the amazing performance of the tiny engines now being used it does seem that this level of exotic valve gear is becoming redundant. I prefer the keep it simple ethos, but would much rather have an effective variable valve timing than bigger valve area, as this will produce less peaky power and torque curves. I love high torque engines, like the L5 2.4 turbo diesel in one of my Alfas. Although I have cars with smaller engines producing more bhp or Kw but fewer NM, I prefer the feel of the high torque diesel. I am going for smaller engines all the time as the benefits cost wise make a lot of sense and the performance is not suffering. There has to be something said about the exhaust note of a well tuned multivalve V6 Busson 3.2. I never put the radio on as the sounds coming from both engine and exhaust are symphonic.
I remember seeing articles about the Maserati 6-valve head as a kid in the eighties, and nothing ever since. It's great to have closure on the subject.
For the record, there was a range of large diesel engines developed by Maybach of Germany (now MTU) with 6-valve heads. They were built under licence in various countries and found use in numerous rail applications - one of the best known was the MD655 V12 that developed 1300+ hp from 65 litres, and was used in pairs to drive the UK's Class 52 locomotives.
well, Yamaha's "analysis" of total air flow vs number of valves was less than rigorous. they failed to account for the overall bore of the engine, or at least d4a failed to mention it in the context of this video. as the total surface area of the head chamber increases, the optimum number of valves also changes. for much larger heads, more valves would continue to improve total air flow beyond even six.
This was what came into my head immediately too, I've actually done some work on these engines, and they were designed some 35 years before Maserati came up with their version. But they may have been the only company trying this in a car engine, because an MD655 or MD870 are the size of a minivan themselves and weigh about 4 times as much as that van. The MD870 is a V-16 DOHC engine. in which each cam shaft does not only operate 3 valves per cylinder each, but one of the cam shafts has to operate the injector valves in the cylinder heads as well, talking about a complex design.
Maybach Motorenbau started with this in the early 1950s, and the engine continued on well into the mtu era, and the last iteration of this engine was the 20 V 538 TB -03, that made 5600 Hp at 1900 rpm, and the displacement was 107,5 Liter
@Lassi Kinnunen Exactly! + on top of that, for a very small bore, twovalve heads are better than fourvalve, because the difference between valve diameter and the inner diameter of the port is, more or less, unchangable (at least within the car/bike scale you can assume a constant difference within likewise designed ports), so the ratio of valve diameter to flow area worsens with smaller valves. But this only goes down from 5 valves per cylinder, and only in small engines. The airflow-optimal number goes from 2 to 5, and then remains there. The thermal and mechanical stress the valve is to endure may play a role in big engines with even more valves.
I owned a 1990 Maserati 430 S sedan with one of the final iterations of their V6 now at 2.8L I was very well versed in all things Maserati but never knew of a 6 valve head being developed. Great video thanks for the info 👍
@@fastinradfordable you've got me here, to be honest Are they complicated by anything more than artificial aspiration and fume recirculation? I seem to not be able to come up with anything more than that
1985 prediction: by year 2000, flying car engines will have 80 valves per cylinder. How did people live with only 6 valves per cylinder? 2020 prediction: by year 2030, all mobile phones will have 80 cameras. How did people live with only 3 camera on their phone?
...in the old days some of the crazier cultural & religious (cultigious/religultral) pedo people used to mutilate parts of their infant childrens genitals, or force it to be done by certain 'ages' in their life/lives for 'because reasons'.
That had two connecting rods per cylinder, and the pistons were oval. The 'cylinders' were not cylindrical and the number of valves per connecting rod was four. Interesting example to be sure, but not really a contradiction to the idea that six valves per cylinder are less efficient than five or four, when the 'cylinders' are round.
I think Joe Walsh did more to sell Maserati's than any press of a 6 valve engine. LOL Another excellent video...made me reach into my "way back" memory in regard to valve count and head flow. I almost forgot about that 5 valve threshold in regard to CFM and port area!
The biturbo is a very underrated classic with a largely unearned rep. America simply did not receive the cars Europe did, and American mechanics were largely not set to maintain them either. The much later biturbo variants of the mid 90s were the pinnacle of the model and remain outstanding cars. Sadly the US never saw those cars as Maserati already left
Selmerpilot Because a lot of Americans didn’t like small cars like that. Most still don’t. Nowadays it’s American Trucks/SUV’s or Japanese econoboxes. You’ll rarely ever find a German, Italian, European, or other sold here.
Really loving these videos. More please. One of the first jobs I got to do when I worked for a race preparation company was to build up a Maserati V12 vintage Grand Prix engine. I still have my 5 valve FZR1000 RU ❤
@Nathan Brame 👍🏼 Yamaha MotoGP was involved with Abarth which in turn is owned by Fiat- Chrysler FCA, who own Maserati... So they've all got fingers in everybody else's pie these days...
Apparently De Tomaso's grandfather was Italian who immigrated to Argentina, as did many other Italians, meaning Alejandro was of Italian decent but Argentinian through nationality. He did need to leave Argentina but that's why he chose Italy. Not throwing any shade just throwing in a little side note.
@@LedzeppelinDogsGuns that was completely irrelevant. The engineering of his cars and his background are two very different topics. Not once did I say what he used, right? I was just shedding light on why he moved to Italy...
Argentina had probably the largest italian migration of any south American country . To the point that they speak Spanish with a slightly italian accent .
De Tomaso "nonno" was an inpoverished Italian bricklayer, but his mother was an very wealthy Argentinean lady of highly aristocratic Spanish origin. His dad was a Lawyer (With a PhD in law), congressman, lawmaker and Agriculture Minister (In a the rich country that live off its agriculture exports), depite dying very young, at 44, when Alejandro was just 5. Alejandro was as much of the tipical "Canchero" Argentinean oligarch landowner as anyone can be. With all their virtues and vices.
I had the v6 Massrati, citerone, Volvo, engine in a boxie Volvo. It had been a gift from a car dealer for sending twenty customers in a month. Towing a trailer I realised the B-double, hundred foot long truck on my left was lined up with another on my right and my lane Wes about to disappear. I pressed my foot to the floor and immediately felt the potential I had never imagined was there. 2.8 litre, four valve, racing engine shot me out like a bar of wet soap. I was stuned and well over the speed limit.
I wouldn't call them a money pit, I've got two Biturbo's and a Quattroporte and while parts are expensive compared to buy parts for more pedestrian cars like Chevy and Ford. But if you understand that the parts cost more and that you have to find a specialist to tune them if you don't feel like investing in specialty tools to service them and don't maintain them properly and on time they will break and cost you out the ass to repair. But if you look at the fun factor of a Maserati and the fact that the odds of seeing another is extremely rare then they off more bang for the buck. I won't get rid of my Maseratis anyway. After all who else could give you an emissions legal V8 powered family car with hemi heads quad overhead cams, quad two barrel Webber carburetors dual electric fuel pumps to feed it, and full length tubular headers all from the factory.
Ducati gets over 240 horses out of their 1000 cc desmo valved superleggera panigale. It's a beast since it comes in at just over 150 kg without a rider or about 1.5 pounds per horse power. It's rather scary to think about and easy to see the 100k price tag if you can get one.
10:45 difference between 2V and 4V is just 5% in hp, but 5V will make same/or less hp than 4V, as one valve on intake is now blocking airflow on sides and even back.. thats why 4V with straight down ports (narrow valve angle with port very high) is used in F1 for last 20years+
I worked on a friend's Bi-Turbo convertable in the US, that lacked power. Main issue was a tiny inline fuel filter someone had added, starving the carb. But I discovered the boost control system was identical to my 83 Saab's "APC" system, it must have been under liscense from Saab. With the familiar tuning screws on the controller { p (max boost) & f (duty cycle frequency of the WG signal dump valve) } , I was able to increase performance a bit. That carb-in-a-bubble was a first for me. Cool car.
Never heard of a Maserati Milano. Alfa Romeo made a Milano (75 in Europe), that car had a normally aspirated V6 and had Bosch LJet fuel injection. That Busso V6 is a wonderful motor.
@@brianshorey lol he never mentionned a brand, just a car. and given their looks and performances, they clearly clashed a little. the 75 milano had many more engines than the V6... 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, a few years afterwards, they added a turbo carbed 1.8 engine. which was destroked a little for homologation needs and fuel injected in the 75 turbo evoluzione. it even got a diesel engine. second gen had the whole engine lineup fuel injected, if memory serves right. never go full retard. do your research.
Yamaha and Ferrari both went to 5 valve heads (FZRs and F355/360), but then went back to 4V!! Obviously not worth it...I am the proud owner of a 2.8L 4V V6 Maserati with dual Marelli ECUs - one for each bank of cylinders...along with dual sensors, wiring etc etc....lots to go wrong, and it does. The last 4V 2L V6 made 336bhp or 168bhp/L at 1.1bar boost. A real gem of an engine, strong and well designed, the best feature of the car.
You italian pronunciation is both hilarious and very close to the correct one, that's a real highlight of your videos! :D And of course the content's is at very high level as well, so huuge thumbs up for you!
Nice informative video..I was also thinking that why the engines are not using more than 4 valves now, after using 2 and 4 valves? Now I got the answer 😊😊
Stupid fact: Those turbos, IHI RHB3, is the same turbo that went on the Chevy Sprint turbo, which coincidentally was also a 1.0L inline three cylinder.
I met a guy about 15 years ago at our Friday night street races which was held by our local strip. He had a Turbo Firefly with the boost cranked up and a 50 shot of nitrous. It probably only made 140hp but damn that thing was fast and embarrassed a bunch of stock 5.0L Mustangs and IROC Camaros. It was pretty funny to see a $1500 car beat up on them.
On another channel a guy has one of these cars & needed a new engine. The dealer wanted about a $1M for a new engine so he bought a wrecked 2020 vette and transplanted the vettes LT into the Massarati. In the end the massarati had more power, more reliability cheaper replacement parts, millions of local mechanics who can work on the LT. Win Win !
Fascinating discoveries and true with research and development. You have to go there to find out not to there again and what is discovered along the way. Great video and the historical pictures are priceless. Thank you for your efforts. It's really great work. Cheers from Glenn in Australia.
Even crazier was Honda's 8 valve per cylinder racing bike engine. To achieve the valve fit, Honda opted for oval pistons, with the valves arranged in two banks of four either side of the cylinder head. This was originally intended for the NR500 Grand Prix bike, but Honda then decided to homologate the engine and the bike for a limited production run of road legal versions. The racing version had pistons that were shaped like two U shapes bolted end to end, but the road version had stretched elliptical pistons instead. The result of all this off the wall tinkering was a 32 valve V4. Which was probably the most complicated 4 cylinder engine ever constructed as a result.The road legal versions of the race bike were among the most expensive motorbikes ever built - if you wanted on in the US, you blew a cool $50,000 to buy one. Examples of these bikes remaining in circulation are now "auction only" purchases when the existing owner of one dies. That's probably an even crazier engine than the Maserati 6 valve, The Honda NR 8 valve V4 has EIGHT conrods, two for each piston, and the camshaft arrangement is a nightmare to work on if you're an engine mechanic.
Actually what counts for airflow is not the area of the valves, but the circumference, That's why two small valves circulate more area than a big one. What makes the airflow of engines with more than 5 valves decrease is the interference between the airflows of the various valves.
First saw a Maserati BiTurbo in Omaha on Farnam St. front of an Italian Restaurante , way back in about 1982. was super cool and was surprised that stodgy ol Omaha could have such a car.
Great video Mate. Awesome content, brilliant research and smooth as hell delivery from you. Love your style and approach to your vids. Keep them coming.
The problem with how Maserati had their valves layed out is that the 3 inlets being so close together would mean they're each getting in the way of the others flow, and the 3 outlets will have the same problem. 6 valves WOULD theoretically give better airflow than 4, but the inlets and outlets would need to alternate around the cylinder. The trouble with that is that it would be horrendously complicated. The port routing alone would make it uneconomical to mass produce, and I'm not even sure where you'd squeeze a sparkplug in amongst the tangle of inlet and outlet ports in the head. It could possibly work on an I4 layout if you were willing to have inlets and exhausts on BOTH sides of the engine, but it still wouldn't be anywhere close to an easy system to manufacture, or tune.
Yamaha invented the 5 valve engine. The first motorcycle to race with that engine had a clutch failure on lap number one and was unable to use the clutch. They still won!
neat. reminds me of the 4th gear stuck viper and jaguars that still outclassed competition. sometimes even overwhelming odds dont defeat well engineered vehicles.
The Honda NR (New Racing) was a V-four motorcycle series started by Honda in 1979 with the 500cc NR500 Grand Prix racer that used oval pistons.[1] This was followed during the 1980s by a 750cc endurance racer version known as the NR750. The oval piston concept allowed for eight valves per cylinder which generated more power due to the increased air/fuel mixture throughput and compression. In 1992 Honda produced around 300 street versions of a 750cc model, the NR (often mistakenly referred to as the NR750), with a 90-degree V angle. Whereas the NR500 had used an oval piston with straight sides, the road going NR750 used an elliptical piston with curved long sides. The bike became the most expensive production bike at the time when it was selling for $50,000 and with the rarity, nowadays they rarely change hands.
Great Video . I must tell you though , that MTU (diesel) was building V-16 and V-24 , Quad and Sextet Turbo Diesels , for Large Boat Main Propulsion at around this same time . We are talking 10 , 000 or 14, 000 horsepower Engines for Military Patrol Boats , Tug Boats and Coastal Freighter Small Ships . Gear Driven Triple Overhead Cam , with Unit Injectors . True Engineering MARVELS .
I think to remember a Maserati sportscar model, from the sixties, named: "Two Doors" (Duo Posti, I think to remember?). A local, wealthy business owner from my hometown bought one from an exhibition.
Honda produced the NR 500 grand prix race bike in 1979. It was a v-4 500cc engine featuring oval pistons with 2 con rods per piston and 8 valves per combustion chamber.
Detailed reports did come out saying of the 3 exhaust valves the center exhaust valve kept overheating and ultimately burning up . With only 2 exhaust valves the temps are equalized.
Maybach (not the "modern" Car Company, but the original engine builders which became MTU) had six valve heads much earlier in the 50 th. Here it made sense, because this configuration gave a lot of space in the middle of the cylinder for a central pre chamber. These engines where used in many railway vehicle. After using direct injection with a relative small injector, they only used four valves.
Shouldn't you be off designing a engine somewhere? Holy cow. You rock dude. Ty for the content and engineering details. Some call it boring, but this is the science that makes ICE's run. Details are important. Ty Sir. Subscribed.
There is valve stem, guide, port angles and merges, plug placement, strength, and scavenging during overlap that cause a diminishing rate of return. I would think it would be pretty tough to beat 4, which is already not a twice two advantage.
5 valve engines were also prone to inadequate cooling for the many valves in the cylinder head and, thus, cracked valve seats and wrecked cylinder heads. Yamaha's engines that they designed for use in automotive applications have been known to be some of the best for their application.
I predict that in a short while, Koenigsegg will be licensing their "free valve" to others, we might see a reemergence of 5 valve per cylinder engines.
Greenhorn : I was not saying that it is, only that Koenigsegg owns the patent to current technology that seems to work well and others will have to either create their own system that does not infringe on their patent, or pay them.
John David Wolf I don’t think Koenigsegg owns the patent to current tech. I believe they worked in conjunction with the company that holds the patent. Either way not new
the more valves per cylinder the less life engine has )) Example , Fords 5.4L motors they used to put on E vans and F 350 trucks were easy reaching 500k miles, but same 5.4L motors but with 4 valves, used on F150 would become total garbage after 150K s , nova days any car with any motor that claims 3-4-5 valve and supercharges or turbo boost, has life span of around 100K.
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3:27 Your engine diagram is WRONG.
Inter coolers reside downstream of the turbo(s) not upstream.
I just wanna say that even if the diagram doesn’t match up perfectly this is a great video.
These videos are quite enjoyable!
They have come a long way.
a) Maserati makes garbage.
b) The De Tomaso Pantera was better than most Italian cars due to having a simple reliable American high-performance engine.
c) Maserati would have been better off focusing on making a competent & reliable sedan if that was the market they sought, rather than making garbage like the bi-turbo.
d) If Maserati wanted to make an Italian high-performance car, they should have paid attention to what Alfa Romeo was making, as some of their cars were examples of good design & other examples of very bad design.
Honda motorcycles also built a 6 valve head around that time not as good as 4 valves is what they found.
Audi 1.8t is a 5 valve and when that timing belt breaks that timing belt u need to remove the entire front end to change you’ll be changing all 20 valves
Turbos were so exoctic and modern in the early 80's. "Biturbo" was the coolest name for a car you could imagine.
Unfortunately Biturbos turned out to be rust buckets.
Actually this was only in the car world. Some WW2 war planes already had advanced engine technologies such as electronic fuel injection, turbo charging, super charging including sequential systems with turbo super charging and sequential twin turbo. It took 30- 40 years after the war for this technology to become available for us plebs.
@@AnonyMous-gt8vq I call it bullshit to airplanes in WW2 having ELECTRONIC fuel injection. They had mechanical one, being in use since 1906, but mechanical fuel injection is an niche technology in petrol cars, (Diesel engines use ir since the 20's) the carburetor is just a better option for most applicarions. First use of EFI was in cars; in the 50's, even if it didn't really took of until the 80's.
Superchargers were uses in car racing since the 20's and were commonplace in F1 before ww2, desappearing after the war due regulations.
Turbocharging was indeed the technology mostly associated to the aircraft industry until the seventies. Turbocharged diesel trucks were built in Switzerland just before WW2, though.
@@Boredoutofmywits Indeed, you are correct sir. Fuel injections was mechanical in WW2.
I would recommend to to anyone who is interested in the topic to check out the channel Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles. He goes over various WW2 planes and cars over the war in exhaustive detail. His videos are well sourced with mostly primary sources and secondary sources if primary are not available. A greats resource for learning about this stuff.
True
A small displacement, twin turbo, quad cam, 36valve, carburetor fed V6, made in Italy. That sounds like the most scary engine combination ever.
Italian bomb
@@kusugara more like a top tear Mario kart
this video is the first time i ever heard anybody say anything good about the biturbo engine
I think the worst cars are from UK.
fuel injected would be worse than carb, because then you'd also have electrics built by an ambitious cash strapped Italian carbuilder
Yamaha did their homework very well, since their 20 valve engines had a pretty successful 22 year run. : )
The VW 20v was pretty stout too. I've had my 2001 Audi A4 for 16 years now. I turned it into a S4 clone but kept the 1.8 20v. it's almost stock internally except for Pauter rods and Schrick cams and supertech valvetrain. It's got a cast stainless manifold,tial v band hot side housing on a GT 35R. It's put down a hair over 500 to all 4 wheels since about 2007 and ran well in the 10's on street tires and pump gas with a shot of meth injection.
I recently pulled it apart to freshen it up and put a twin disc clutch and a 6spd swap. When I pulled the bottom end apart it was mint. I could've reused the bearings after close to 90k miles at around 400-450 crank hp in street trim. It's crazy how stout the thing is. But I bumped it up to 2L with new hardware and mahle pistons, newer turbo with a billet wheel and it a lot faster and quicker to spool. So hopefully I have a clutch to hold 600+ AWD 😲
If the trend of long stroke under square engines keeps going 5 valves could make a comeback. I imagine the trend back to 4 valves has to do with decreased Rev range and increased torque. The 4 valve setup is likely cheaper and is easier to engineer for some kind of coherent motion of the intake charge like a tumble or swirl motion. But it's also being found that long stroke small bore engines are thermodynamically more efficient. Be it by a smaller swirl or tumble radius or just better surface to volume ratios at the crank angles that are important. Not sure if it's a burn thing or a heat dissipation thing. But new engines may push the stroke up near 100mm and have bores in the low 80mm range. If these limits are pushed then a 5 valve setup could be used to bring the valve area to cylinder volume ratio back up. I just have to wonder if the return on airflow is worth the smaller bore or if 4 valves with slightly more bore is the better compromise.
I used to work on one of those that was used as a race bike , pro stock. Never forget spending two weeks painstakinly rebuilding it and going to Brands Hatch . Out went Andy for practice laps, came back in and i retentioned the new drive chain . Off he went agin for more practice laps , ten i saw him coasting , he came to the tunnel to go back to the pits and i could hear this tinkling noise , yes , the valves , oh how i hated that engibe ))))))))) , owo1 , still have nightmares about that one ))))))
Their motors in the Ford Taurus SHO were great motors. Silky smooth and reved like anything.
As turbos are now more effective at lower engine revs, 4 valves are enough. There has to be a playoff on road vehicles of reliability/durability over performance. Along with fuel consumption now being an almost overriding factor. When we consider the amazing performance of the tiny engines now being used it does seem that this level of exotic valve gear is becoming redundant. I prefer the keep it simple ethos, but would much rather have an effective variable valve timing than bigger valve area, as this will produce less peaky power and torque curves. I love high torque engines, like the L5 2.4 turbo diesel in one of my Alfas. Although I have cars with smaller engines producing more bhp or Kw but fewer NM, I prefer the feel of the high torque diesel.
I am going for smaller engines all the time as the benefits cost wise make a lot of sense and the performance is not suffering.
There has to be something said about the exhaust note of a well tuned multivalve V6 Busson 3.2. I never put the radio on as the sounds coming from both engine and exhaust are symphonic.
I remember seeing articles about the Maserati 6-valve head as a kid in the eighties, and nothing ever since. It's great to have closure on the subject.
For the record, there was a range of large diesel engines developed by Maybach of Germany (now MTU) with 6-valve heads. They were built under licence in various countries and found use in numerous rail applications - one of the best known was the MD655 V12 that developed 1300+ hp from 65 litres, and was used in pairs to drive the UK's Class 52 locomotives.
well, Yamaha's "analysis" of total air flow vs number of valves was less than rigorous. they failed to account for the overall bore of the engine, or at least d4a failed to mention it in the context of this video. as the total surface area of the head chamber increases, the optimum number of valves also changes. for much larger heads, more valves would continue to improve total air flow beyond even six.
This was what came into my head immediately too, I've actually done some work on these engines, and they were designed some 35 years before Maserati came up with their version.
But they may have been the only company trying this in a car engine, because an MD655 or MD870 are the size of a minivan themselves and weigh about 4 times as much as that van.
The MD870 is a V-16 DOHC engine. in which each cam shaft does not only operate 3 valves per cylinder each, but one of the cam shafts has to operate the injector valves in the cylinder heads as well, talking about a complex design.
@@Tom-Lahaye yay for mechanical injection. my old alfa has the SPICA mechanical fuel injection. balls to the wall 2L/4cyl engine.
Maybach Motorenbau started with this in the early 1950s, and the engine continued on well into the mtu era, and the last iteration of this engine was the 20 V 538 TB -03, that made 5600 Hp at 1900 rpm, and the displacement was 107,5 Liter
@Lassi Kinnunen Exactly! + on top of that, for a very small bore, twovalve heads are better than fourvalve, because the difference between valve diameter and the inner diameter of the port is, more or less, unchangable (at least within the car/bike scale you can assume a constant difference within likewise designed ports), so the ratio of valve diameter to flow area worsens with smaller valves. But this only goes down from 5 valves per cylinder, and only in small engines. The airflow-optimal number goes from 2 to 5, and then remains there.
The thermal and mechanical stress the valve is to endure may play a role in big engines with even more valves.
I owned a 1990 Maserati 430 S sedan with one of the final iterations of their V6 now at 2.8L
I was very well versed in all things Maserati but never knew of a 6 valve head being developed. Great video thanks for the info 👍
This gave me anxiety because of the complexity and over engineering required to produce this engine
Tis the GUUD kind of anxiety, the over engineered one. 👌🏻😁👍🏻
I imagine the mechanics had anxiety as well.
Although I have yet to meet an honest mechanic who isn’t anxious.
Another note, this engine is simpler than anything manufactured today.
@@fastinradfordable you've got me here, to be honest
Are they complicated by anything more than artificial aspiration and fume recirculation? I seem to not be able to come up with anything more than that
Know what you mean . The yamaha owo1 was a nightmare
I'm positive there was a later Ghibli Cup version still with a 2.0 V6 which made 330bhp, which was a pretty big deal for a roadcar at that time.
Hahaha very good video man! Gradually improving them more and more! Keep it up mate!
1985 prediction: by year 2000, flying car engines will have 80 valves per cylinder. How did people live with only 6 valves per cylinder?
2020 prediction: by year 2030, all mobile phones will have 80 cameras. How did people live with only 3 camera on their phone?
"Did you know this camera has a phone?"
"A _what?"_
...in the old days some of the crazier cultural & religious (cultigious/religultral) pedo people used to mutilate parts of their infant childrens genitals, or force it to be done by certain 'ages' in their life/lives for 'because reasons'.
And where is my 24 blade razor? Gillette, are you listening?
@@razor1uk610 dude wtf
2020: I only want two valves per cylinder. "It sounds better"
Hei ! Check out the 8 valves per cylinder production engine, from Honda NR750!
I was thinking about the same thing hehe
But that’s cheating 😁
That had two connecting rods per cylinder, and the pistons were oval. The 'cylinders' were not cylindrical and the number of valves per connecting rod was four. Interesting example to be sure, but not really a contradiction to the idea that six valves per cylinder are less efficient than five or four, when the 'cylinders' are round.
I knew almost none of this. Phenomenal video. I was genuinely riveted.
I think Joe Walsh did more to sell Maserati's than any press of a 6 valve engine. LOL Another excellent video...made me reach into my "way back" memory in regard to valve count and head flow. I almost forgot about that 5 valve threshold in regard to CFM and port area!
"My Maserati does one eighty five, I lost my licence now I don't drive..." Now I can't get that song out of my head '(Life's been good').
The biturbo is a very underrated classic with a largely unearned rep. America simply did not receive the cars Europe did, and American mechanics were largely not set to maintain them either. The much later biturbo variants of the mid 90s were the pinnacle of the model and remain outstanding cars. Sadly the US never saw those cars as Maserati already left
Selmerpilot
Because a lot of Americans didn’t like small cars like that. Most still don’t. Nowadays it’s American Trucks/SUV’s or Japanese econoboxes. You’ll rarely ever find a German, Italian, European, or other sold here.
Really loving these videos. More please.
One of the first jobs I got to do when I worked for a race preparation company was to build up a Maserati V12 vintage Grand Prix engine. I still have my 5 valve FZR1000 RU ❤
There are few people in this world I envy. You are one of them.
Everyone forgets about the 5v audis. They had a 40v v8 for a couple days
Weber carburettors were state of the art. My father's Dodge Charger had them back then.
What a fascinating little dive into history. Well worth a sub from this first time viewer.
Maserati has always been ahead of the curve and pushing the envelope with engine technologies.
Unappreciated, mostly...
Yusuf Ginnah
Ahead of the curve,
Or behind yamaha
@Nathan Brame
👍🏼
Yamaha MotoGP was involved with Abarth which in turn is owned by Fiat- Chrysler FCA, who own Maserati...
So they've all got fingers in everybody else's pie these days...
Yusuf Ginnah Maserati : we are ahead of the curve. Me: in unreliability
@@mikecastellon4545 thats for sure ,thats why is for rich people they the only ones that can afford that bills from the dealership
They have yet to catch up with Honda’s 8 valve per cyl. 35 years ago.
Man, this is one of the best car chans on yt! I'm eager & excited to see the next topic you'll come up with. Great job so far!
for some reason i really enjoy your videos. you probably have the most knowledge about engines on youtube, keep it up. props from 2 liter portugal
My Biturbo loved head gaskets. It set in a wanting for news longer than it was on the road!
That's some very impressive engine engineering. You want one at home to look at and feel only to be frustrated because you can't see inside.
Ah, I see. Ihi has to build the boats to transport the turbos, then they have to build the bridges for people to tear them out on.
an example of "just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done"
Apparently De Tomaso's grandfather was Italian who immigrated to Argentina, as did many other Italians, meaning Alejandro was of Italian decent but Argentinian through nationality. He did need to leave Argentina but that's why he chose Italy. Not throwing any shade just throwing in a little side note.
yea but he use the best simple engines AMERICAN push rod
@@LedzeppelinDogsGuns that was completely irrelevant. The engineering of his cars and his background are two very different topics. Not once did I say what he used, right? I was just shedding light on why he moved to Italy...
Argentina had probably the largest italian migration of any south American country . To the point that they speak Spanish with a slightly italian accent .
De Tomaso "nonno" was an inpoverished Italian bricklayer, but his mother was an very wealthy Argentinean lady of highly aristocratic Spanish origin.
His dad was a Lawyer (With a PhD in law), congressman, lawmaker and Agriculture Minister (In a the rich country that live off its agriculture exports), depite dying very young, at 44, when Alejandro was just 5.
Alejandro was as much of the tipical "Canchero" Argentinean oligarch landowner as anyone can be. With all their virtues and vices.
@@Boredoutofmywits I can't find any of what you wrote anywhere online. Would you mind sending me the links please?
I had the v6 Massrati, citerone, Volvo, engine in a boxie Volvo. It had been a gift from a car dealer for sending twenty customers in a month. Towing a trailer I realised the B-double, hundred foot long truck on my left was lined up with another on my right and my lane Wes about to disappear. I pressed my foot to the floor and immediately felt the potential I had never imagined was there. 2.8 litre, four valve, racing engine shot me out like a bar of wet soap. I was stuned and well over the speed limit.
I've owned a Maserati 422 for a couple of years, as a daily driver. Absolute money pit, totally unreliable, but I loved it!
Hi man, I own a maserati 422, yeah like daily drive is pretty expensive for maintenance and reliability, is not the best 90" car but I love it
I wouldn't call them a money pit, I've got two Biturbo's and a Quattroporte and while parts are expensive compared to buy parts for more pedestrian cars like Chevy and Ford. But if you understand that the parts cost more and that you have to find a specialist to tune them if you don't feel like investing in specialty tools to service them and don't maintain them properly and on time they will break and cost you out the ass to repair. But if you look at the fun factor of a Maserati and the fact that the odds of seeing another is extremely rare then they off more bang for the buck. I won't get rid of my Maseratis anyway. After all who else could give you an emissions legal V8 powered family car with hemi heads quad overhead cams, quad two barrel Webber carburetors dual electric fuel pumps to feed it, and full length tubular headers all from the factory.
Excellent video! I always wondered what happened with the 6 valve engine. Detomaso was such an interesting figure in the automotive world.
TOO 80s? there is no such thing!
What up, LP? FOGeologist...
Thanks for the video. Very informative and fascinating actually
Very interesting story. I've just watched this channel for the first time and I really enjoyed the content. Congratulations! Cheers!
Great content, well delivered, thanks.
The Yamaha five valve was used in F1 engines and its ultra high performance motorcycles. The bikes get close on 200bhp per litre with no turbo.
Yamaha has no lemons they are awesome
250hp
Ducati gets over 240 horses out of their 1000 cc desmo valved superleggera panigale. It's a beast since it comes in at just over 150 kg without a rider or about 1.5 pounds per horse power. It's rather scary to think about and easy to see the 100k price tag if you can get one.
Your videos are so emphatic and invigorating!
Fascinating and extra informative because of the 5 valve part.
I had no idea about this. Great to know about it.
10:45 difference between 2V and 4V is just 5% in hp, but 5V will make same/or less hp than 4V, as one valve on intake is now blocking airflow on sides and even back..
thats why 4V with straight down ports (narrow valve angle with port very high) is used in F1 for last 20years+
I worked on a friend's Bi-Turbo convertable in the US, that lacked power. Main issue was a tiny inline fuel filter someone had added, starving the carb. But I discovered the boost control system was identical to my 83 Saab's "APC" system, it must have been under liscense from Saab. With the familiar tuning screws on the controller { p (max boost) & f (duty cycle frequency of the WG signal dump valve) } , I was able to increase performance a bit. That carb-in-a-bubble was a first for me. Cool car.
As usual a very well made vid. Well
done.
being too 80's is what makes 80's Maseratis cool. A cool snapshot of the age in car form.
So good hearing the European names pronounced well!
I remember the Biturbo and the Milano (the car, not the pepperidge farms cookie). Blow thru carburetors were still a thing then.
Never heard of a Maserati Milano. Alfa Romeo made a Milano (75 in Europe), that car had a normally aspirated V6 and had Bosch LJet fuel injection. That Busso V6 is a wonderful motor.
@@brianshorey lol he never mentionned a brand, just a car. and given their looks and performances, they clearly clashed a little. the 75 milano had many more engines than the V6... 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, a few years afterwards, they added a turbo carbed 1.8 engine. which was destroked a little for homologation needs and fuel injected in the 75 turbo evoluzione. it even got a diesel engine.
second gen had the whole engine lineup fuel injected, if memory serves right.
never go full retard. do your research.
My Yamaha FZ750 3KS from 1991 and actually driven for 67.000 km runs very well and makes allways a lot of fun to drive..
Pretty awesome video as always. Enjoyed watching it. Keep up the good work
Love your videos, so much information and history.. keep it up
Keep rolling out those videos.
Instructive and entertaining presentation, as usual.
Yamaha and Ferrari both went to 5 valve heads (FZRs and F355/360), but then went back to 4V!! Obviously not worth it...I am the proud owner of a 2.8L 4V V6 Maserati with dual Marelli ECUs - one for each bank of cylinders...along with dual sensors, wiring etc etc....lots to go wrong, and it does. The last 4V 2L V6 made 336bhp or 168bhp/L at 1.1bar boost. A real gem of an engine, strong and well designed, the best feature of the car.
Complimenti for your italian knowledge
I love your spanish pronunciation, here's your subscription
You italian pronunciation is both hilarious and very close to the correct one, that's a real highlight of your videos! :D And of course the content's is at very high level as well, so huuge thumbs up for you!
Thank You Zlatan of cars🙏
great vid , got involved in the bi turbo aftermarketcharge coolers , which woke up the old single cam motor
Remember that Honda made an 8 valve V4. It had oval pistons.
Thanks for your videos, great quality, super intetesting info!
Very interesting story! Thank you!
Very interesting with the 7 valve head and so on, things many people don't know about.
Nice informative video..I was also thinking that why the engines are not using more than 4 valves now, after using 2 and 4 valves? Now I got the answer 😊😊
Stupid fact: Those turbos, IHI RHB3, is the same turbo that went on the Chevy Sprint turbo, which coincidentally was also a 1.0L inline three cylinder.
I met a guy about 15 years ago at our Friday night street races which was held by our local strip. He had a Turbo Firefly with the boost cranked up and a 50 shot of nitrous. It probably only made 140hp but damn that thing was fast and embarrassed a bunch of stock 5.0L Mustangs and IROC Camaros. It was pretty funny to see a $1500 car beat up on them.
On another channel a guy has one of these cars &
needed a new engine. The dealer wanted about a $1M
for a new engine so he bought a wrecked 2020 vette
and transplanted the vettes LT into the Massarati. In
the end the massarati had more power, more reliability
cheaper replacement parts, millions of local mechanics
who can work on the LT. Win Win
!
That 6.36 engine is an overengineering marvel of complexity!-John in Texas
I love the 80,s Maserati designs. I would love a Shamal. I think the design has aged pretty well.
Fascinating discoveries and true with research and development. You have to go there to find out not to there again and what is discovered along the way. Great video and the historical pictures are priceless. Thank you for your efforts. It's really great work. Cheers from Glenn in Australia.
Another great video!!! Learned alot of super interesting facts in this one.
Even crazier was Honda's 8 valve per cylinder racing bike engine. To achieve the valve fit, Honda opted for oval pistons, with the valves arranged in two banks of four either side of the cylinder head. This was originally intended for the NR500 Grand Prix bike, but Honda then decided to homologate the engine and the bike for a limited production run of road legal versions. The racing version had pistons that were shaped like two U shapes bolted end to end, but the road version had stretched elliptical pistons instead.
The result of all this off the wall tinkering was a 32 valve V4. Which was probably the most complicated 4 cylinder engine ever constructed as a result.The road legal versions of the race bike were among the most expensive motorbikes ever built - if you wanted on in the US, you blew a cool $50,000 to buy one. Examples of these bikes remaining in circulation are now "auction only" purchases when the existing owner of one dies.
That's probably an even crazier engine than the Maserati 6 valve, The Honda NR 8 valve V4 has EIGHT conrods, two for each piston, and the camshaft arrangement is a nightmare to work on if you're an engine mechanic.
You just have to look at the combustion chamber and how much unused surface area there with 6 or more valves to see why it wouldn't work.
Good point. A balance must always be struck when it comes to valve area and chamber shape/size.
To say it won’t work is wrong.
If it works just as good as 4 or 5 valves.
THEN IT STILL WORKS
They should have used hexagonal valves.. lol
@@duncanb1981 not a good idea but good joke
Actually what counts for airflow is not the area of the valves, but the circumference, That's why two small valves circulate more area than a big one. What makes the airflow of engines with more than 5 valves decrease is the interference between the airflows of the various valves.
First saw a Maserati BiTurbo in Omaha on Farnam St. front of an Italian Restaurante , way back in about 1982. was super cool and was surprised that stodgy ol Omaha could have such a car.
I saw 3 Maserati Bi-Turbos in the mid 1980s.
2 on tow trucks. 1 in a shop parking lot for a long time.
Very much enjoyed as always ,Thanks.
Great video Mate. Awesome content, brilliant research and smooth as hell delivery from you. Love your style and approach to your vids. Keep them coming.
Awesome content and presentation!! Congrats, you've earned a new suscriber!
I can't believe you pronounced my name perfectly!
Little known but very interesting story. The technical evolution makes total sense too.
Superbly narrated.
The problem with how Maserati had their valves layed out is that the 3 inlets being so close together would mean they're each getting in the way of the others flow, and the 3 outlets will have the same problem. 6 valves WOULD theoretically give better airflow than 4, but the inlets and outlets would need to alternate around the cylinder. The trouble with that is that it would be horrendously complicated. The port routing alone would make it uneconomical to mass produce, and I'm not even sure where you'd squeeze a sparkplug in amongst the tangle of inlet and outlet ports in the head. It could possibly work on an I4 layout if you were willing to have inlets and exhausts on BOTH sides of the engine, but it still wouldn't be anywhere close to an easy system to manufacture, or tune.
Yamaha invented the 5 valve engine.
The first motorcycle to race with that engine had a clutch failure on lap number one and was unable to use the clutch.
They still won!
neat. reminds me of the 4th gear stuck viper and jaguars that still outclassed competition. sometimes even overwhelming odds dont defeat well engineered vehicles.
Yamaha didn't invent the 5 valve setup. I had a memory of hearing of an early 5 valve engine and Wikipedia claims Peugeot made the first one in 1921.
Those 6 valves heads just look sick.(5v already looks crazy) Almost like the muzzle face of a Gatling gun.
Excellent episode, as I recall Audi backed up those ideas with their 5 valve engines !
The Honda NR (New Racing) was a V-four motorcycle series started by Honda in 1979 with the 500cc NR500 Grand Prix racer that used oval pistons.[1] This was followed during the 1980s by a 750cc endurance racer version known as the NR750. The oval piston concept allowed for eight valves per cylinder which generated more power due to the increased air/fuel mixture throughput and compression. In 1992 Honda produced around 300 street versions of a 750cc model, the NR (often mistakenly referred to as the NR750), with a 90-degree V angle. Whereas the NR500 had used an oval piston with straight sides, the road going NR750 used an elliptical piston with curved long sides. The bike became the most expensive production bike at the time when it was selling for $50,000 and with the rarity, nowadays they rarely change hands.
Great Video . I must tell you though , that MTU (diesel) was building V-16 and V-24 , Quad and Sextet Turbo Diesels , for Large Boat Main Propulsion at around this same time . We are talking 10 , 000 or 14, 000 horsepower Engines for Military Patrol Boats , Tug Boats and Coastal Freighter Small Ships .
Gear Driven Triple Overhead Cam , with Unit Injectors . True Engineering MARVELS .
thanks man👍
You manage to give a lot of info in a short time 👌👌
Great video man
I think to remember a Maserati sportscar model, from the sixties, named: "Two Doors" (Duo Posti, I think to remember?). A local, wealthy business owner from my hometown bought one from an exhibition.
Always a pleasure watching your informative videos. Keep up the great work!
I owned a 84 2.4 litre bi turbo and loved it ,the sou d was music !
As always...excellent video 👍👍
De Tomaso Pantera remains the sexiest car name
First time when I heard about IHI it was because of Kawasaki P-1
Honda produced the NR 500 grand prix race bike in 1979. It was a v-4 500cc engine featuring oval pistons with 2 con rods per piston and 8 valves per combustion chamber.
Sometimes you hit design perfection that can't be improved. Like the classic double triangle bike frame.
Detailed reports did come out saying of the 3 exhaust valves the center exhaust valve kept overheating and ultimately burning up . With only 2 exhaust valves the temps are equalized.
Holy sh*t 128,5 HP/Litre in a sport coupe back in 80s
Maybach (not the "modern" Car Company, but the original engine builders which became MTU) had six valve heads much earlier in the 50 th. Here it made sense, because this configuration gave a lot of space in the middle of the cylinder for a central pre chamber. These engines where used in many railway vehicle. After using direct injection with a relative small injector, they only used four valves.
What a fantastic glimpse into history. I really enjoyed watching this video. One of the most enjoyable ones ever, on any topic.
Shouldn't you be off designing a engine somewhere? Holy cow. You rock dude. Ty for the content and engineering details. Some call it boring, but this is the science that makes ICE's run. Details are important. Ty Sir. Subscribed.
There is valve stem, guide, port angles and merges, plug placement, strength, and scavenging during overlap that cause a diminishing rate of return. I would think it would be pretty tough to beat 4, which is already not a twice two advantage.
Always enjoy automotive tech
5 valve engines were also prone to inadequate cooling for the many valves in the cylinder head and, thus, cracked valve seats and wrecked cylinder heads. Yamaha's engines that they designed for use in automotive applications have been known to be some of the best for their application.
That finger control system sounds like snapped belt hell
Having a timing belt fail on a 12V V6 engine already costs a fortune, so I can't imagine how much worse it must have been on a 36V V6 engine.
Well on the Vw/Audi 30v v6
It runs about 4K if you snap the timing belt.
if you take care of your car, belt's shouldn't be a problem, wouldn't it?
I predict that in a short while, Koenigsegg will be licensing their "free valve" to others, we might see a reemergence of 5 valve per cylinder engines.
"free valve" aint a new thing
Greenhorn : I was not saying that it is, only that Koenigsegg owns the patent to current technology that seems to work well and others will have to either create their own system that does not infringe on their patent, or pay them.
John David Wolf I don’t think Koenigsegg owns the patent to current tech. I believe they worked in conjunction with the company that holds the patent. Either way not new
the more valves per cylinder the less life engine has )) Example , Fords 5.4L motors they used to put on E vans and F 350 trucks were easy reaching 500k miles, but same 5.4L motors but with 4 valves, used on F150 would become total garbage after 150K s , nova days any car with any motor that claims 3-4-5 valve and supercharges or turbo boost, has life span of around 100K.
@@ansv3340 If you care about reliability then buy a toyota corolla.
Not every car needs to be a grocery getter.
Great and informative presentation.