one must caution that before voicing, one must be certain that the hammer is properly regulated in regards to key dip, hammer blow distance, back check distance, let off, drop etc. always properly regulate before you do any voicing.
Thanks a ton for supplying this resource. Its been 15 yrs now and just looking at playing around with piano actions again (maybe do a few family/friends pianos just to get hands on again). I was taught to do filing and voicing as part of a recondition but was nvr taught why. The examples given give me much better idea of why, not just the how.
Sally did a good job of explaining what no one else has tried to explain before her here. The limitations of RUclips and mics and dynamic compression render many of her examples unclear. Not her fault. I am great fan of "lacquer-up" style hammers. UK techs (for instance) know that olden pianos were gloriously warm and rich. Same was true with USA pianos a century ago. Cold-pressed hammer felts. There are two basic ways to get brilliant tone for concert hall performance...or for sales room glitz. It has been found that untutored ears gravitate to the brighter pianos in showrooms. Hence, the dearth of rich-sounding new pianos there. The Japanese really ruined the tone of pianos with hot-pressed, super-densified hammers. I am a concert piano technican of 40 years standing. I was formally trained by the chief technician of the former Baldwin Piano Company. Lacquer-up style hammers. I like that way best. I was also formally trained by a chief technician of Yamaha Corporation Japan. We were taught by Yamaha to impact needle the new hammers of our individually-assigned CF piano hundreds and hundreds strikes of the three-needel tool, to make the concrete-felt texture more like balsa wood. I much prefer lacquering-up low density hammers to the needling down of rock-hard hammers. The results of lacquer-up hammers can be much more lasting over time and a bigger, bolder American Steinway sort of tone is envisionable oh! how my boss at Yamaha's USA concert and artist department hated my doing that to his company! Here is an example of my work from 1982. Baldwin SD-10. Lacquer-up style, factory-fitted Pratt-Read low density, full weight hammers; I was Mr. Wild's technician for all Audiofon sessions. He mentored me about tone, too. I cannot play a piano at all. But I can hear and so can you. If you can hear, you can do. Listen to the way the piano is degraded by microphones, by LP disc cartridge mistracking, by RUclips compression. It's still a record that indicates Earl Wild and also my work in voicing concert pianos: ruclips.net/video/ap4twtz_ggA/видео.html
Yamaha USA's head of it its concert and artist division hated this review and E. called me on the carpet. I apologized and explained that I had to make the piano sound as it did. I had to make it sound wonderful for Garrick. This was done all by voicing the hammers. There was no trickery involved at all. "How'd you make that piano sound like that, Reid?" asked the reviewer. "I begged, borrowed and stole." A mink rolled over and cried. E. was no mink. He is the best of men, even today. drive.google.com/file/d/1igbsD5OW6i2y7EDNBXcFWBhyZANti7IS/view?usp=sharing
Is there anyone realizing that what you hear in reality and what gets to the speakers through recording/encoding/machine-playing are 2 different things? That regardless what great equipment you may have used in recording, the listener's playing equipment can make those 2 things hugely different? Not to mention youtube video encoding limits?
You don't get it, the most important is to hear the difference. The most important when you watch a movie, is to hear the difference tone between actors, than to know for real what are their voice. This is a demonstration.
This is quite interesting, and I could easily hear differences in the tone after each step. However, what was most interesting to me, was that I thought the tone at 5:31 was very similar to the tone at 4:34. You can move the play marker back and forth between those two time points to confirm this. I did. The tone at 5:31 may have a bit more sustain, but it is more similar to the 100 year old hammer you started with than any of intermediate steps. It thought you almost went in a circle. Was that intentional? Were you showing you could make the new hammer sound like the old one?
Hello, great technical video Sally, thanks for that work. all but easy the 'new american hammers' are not lacquered at all , or do you mean no addition after initial one (Steinway) ? I may listen with headphones, but I hear lacquered heads ... Best regards
Holy shit, can I relate! I have a 29 Gulbransen that has the OG hammers and felts. I have replaced most of the dampers and adjusted the action but those hammers....sound like dick. I hate to replace them but I may need to. I will try voicing with the needles first. Hammers are a bitch to replace. What could go wrong?!
Very instructive post on voicing. Lack of voicing on my new upright Kawai K-3 results in extreme unevenness in tone--to the point of utter distraction when practicing. It's terrible! A complaint to the dealer was met with the terse statement, "Uprights, unlike grands, do not need to be voiced, ever."
Your dealer is full of crap. They just don't want to pay a technician to voice your piano because it might cost them a few bucks. You should complain to Kawai USA and maybe they can recommend someone for you. I voice pianos everyday and you would be suprised the sound you can get out of any piano if you know what you are doing!!
Jackie. This piano is not one year old and has had two tunings. Personally I do not think the dealer's technician who has tuned the instrument knows what he is doing. I thought tuners used tuning forks; he uses some kind of digital read-out. That leads me to wonder if he's up to the task. The problem is that I do not get a chance to really hear what he has done until after he leaves my home. He's quick in and quick out and cannot play at all so I can assess things. The uneveness seems worse after he leaves. Now I'm hearing a real lack of sustain in the second Bb above middle C. The Ab right below it has a nice long sustain, but the Bb is not nearly as bright and decays much more quickly and just dies on the vine. I'm new to acoustics but this does not seem right. I'm pretty upset with this situation. I think I will call Kawai. Thanks for getting back.
joeb434 I'm now in the same position as you were - my new Kawai (a K-500) which I've had for less than a year has uneven brightness and sustain which I notice most in the region of the keyboard you described. Did you get a voicing done on your K-3? What were the results like? This video suggests it's something I need to look at. About your tuner using a digital device, he might have just been using it in the same role as a tuning fork - to provide a reference pitch (e.g. middle A = 440Hz) around which the rest of the piano is then tuned by ear.
MathsYknow Yes I did have the K3 voiced a couple of months ago. Since the dealer would not help I called Kawai and they agreed to pay a local technician (not the dealer) for voicing the instrument. This was for a "corrective" voicing, not a voicing based upon my personal tastes. They were nice about the situation. I explained to the tech about the uneveness of various tones and pointed out those keys that were off--particularly in the middle register. Some minor filing of selected hammers was done. The tech said some of the hammers were not hitting the strings square on. The whole process did not take long. I seemed to notice some improvement but it was not dramatic and in fact the piano has resorted to its old ways with some notes still off big time! Summary: I would never buy a Kawai upright again. While the cabinetry of this K3 is outstanding, the sound producing part of the instrument demonstrates a lack of quality control. While the K3 is not an expensive upright, it seems like Kawai (and/or the dealer) could shore up the omissions inherent in the production line process with a little more human attention and prepping. I'm now in the market for a new grand piano as I've had it will uprights in general. Rest assured that I will not be looking at Kawai's new GX Blak models. Hope this helps.
Most of the top piano technicians that I have met can tune by ear but find it faster and more accurate to use a modern electronic machine. The Steinway technicians I have met use an electronic tuner.
If the tuning sounds bad a day after its tuned then the tuner did a bad job. electronic tuning devices are for the most part far more accurate that humans and makes for a much more reliable and stable dune, however that doesn't mean any old person can tune pianos with an electronic tuning device. You will hear a lot of bad press about electronic tuning deviced by people who have never used them so don't determine a lack of experience if you see someone using it as they can be very helpful when tuning the high bell tones that many older tuners out there can no longer hear. This doesn't mean that you cannot get a bad tuning with an electronic tuning device though. there are many new piano tuners that have had no training aside from a few RUclips videos that will go through the piano, however they will often not be able to tune unisons very well which is really the most important part of tuning since 90% of people can't hear a difference unless a note is 10 cents out of tun, but people definitely notice unisons which is one of the 3 strings the hammer hits being slightly off. A lot of those japanese and chinese brand pianos such as yamaha, kawaii, peral river, and young cheng tend to be unstable and require a tuning every 4 months for the first couple of years since the string and wood are still settling and adapting to the temperature. If you are in a very humid climate or your house changes terperature drasticly (i mean like its 50 at night and 90 durring the day so extreme) and that can cause it however it shouldn't be out of tun to the point of noticing for at least 2-3 months on a brand new piano. after a year it should be more stable, but also a major issue that can happen with inexperienced tuners is that they don't have the proper technique making for an unstable tune so as soon as its played it goes way too far out of tune. this is something you wouldn't notice until a few days after they leave, but if its out of tune 2 days later then you got a problem.
For me, I would want the sustain to be short, rather than as long as possible. A short sustain is more natural sounding for what is essentially a percussion instrument, and more suitable for historical repertoire.
ehh, that's why there is this technique called non legato for playing a shortor sustained sounds, if the piano naturally has a longer sustain, the player has more options to either play legato or non legato.
I don't really know how a shorter sustain would sound on a modern piano, but I do know that the long sustain of the modern piano is detrimental to nonlegato playing. A long sustain (together with soft attack and a slower 'blooming' sound) doesn't give you more options - it just shifts the options in the direction of legato. It makes clear classical phrasing sound hiccupy. In Mozart you have all those breaks of slurs where you're supposed to lift your fingers off, without connecting the sounds. With a modern piano it sounds hiccupy because you've cut off the sound before it had time to develop. Whereas with a fortepiano or clavichord, with immediate attack and short sustain, you can do very clean, well-articulated phrasing. There's a video that shows this: ruclips.net/video/ixKath2K0Mw/видео.html
if you want test different voice and sound you should first use a better music. not this random note with no harmony. holy crap. i msorry because i was interested
one must caution that before voicing, one must be certain that the hammer is properly regulated in regards to key dip, hammer blow distance, back check distance, let off, drop etc. always properly regulate before you do any voicing.
Thanks a ton for supplying this resource. Its been 15 yrs now and just looking at playing around with piano actions again (maybe do a few family/friends pianos just to get hands on again). I was taught to do filing and voicing as part of a recondition but was nvr taught why. The examples given give me much better idea of why, not just the how.
Very informative video. Thanks for making it!
Sally did a good job of explaining what no one else has tried to explain before her here. The limitations of RUclips and mics and dynamic compression render many of her examples unclear. Not her fault.
I am great fan of "lacquer-up" style hammers. UK techs (for instance) know that olden pianos were gloriously warm and rich. Same was true with USA pianos a century ago. Cold-pressed hammer felts.
There are two basic ways to get brilliant tone for concert hall performance...or for sales room glitz. It has been found that untutored ears gravitate to the brighter pianos in showrooms. Hence, the dearth of rich-sounding new pianos there. The Japanese really ruined the tone of pianos with hot-pressed, super-densified hammers.
I am a concert piano technican of 40 years standing. I was formally trained by the chief technician of the former Baldwin Piano Company. Lacquer-up style hammers. I like that way best. I was also formally trained by a chief technician of Yamaha Corporation Japan. We were taught by Yamaha to impact needle the new hammers of our individually-assigned CF piano hundreds and hundreds strikes of the three-needel tool, to make the concrete-felt texture more like balsa wood.
I much prefer lacquering-up low density hammers to the needling down of rock-hard hammers. The results of lacquer-up hammers can be much more lasting over time and a bigger, bolder American Steinway sort of tone is envisionable oh! how my boss at Yamaha's USA concert and artist department hated my doing that to his company!
Here is an example of my work from 1982. Baldwin SD-10. Lacquer-up style, factory-fitted Pratt-Read low density, full weight hammers; I was Mr. Wild's technician for all Audiofon sessions. He mentored me about tone, too. I cannot play a piano at all. But I can hear and so can you. If you can hear, you can do.
Listen to the way the piano is degraded by microphones, by LP disc cartridge mistracking, by RUclips compression. It's still a record that indicates Earl Wild and also my work in voicing concert pianos: ruclips.net/video/ap4twtz_ggA/видео.html
Yamaha USA's head of it its concert and artist division hated this review and E. called me on the carpet. I apologized and explained that I had to make the piano sound as it did. I had to make it sound wonderful for Garrick. This was done all by voicing the hammers. There was no trickery involved at all. "How'd you make that piano sound like that, Reid?" asked the reviewer. "I begged, borrowed and stole." A mink rolled over and cried. E. was no mink. He is the best of men, even today. drive.google.com/file/d/1igbsD5OW6i2y7EDNBXcFWBhyZANti7IS/view?usp=sharing
Can somebody please tell me the name of the piece that is being performed at the very top of this video?
Barber piano sonata.
Is there anyone realizing that what you hear in reality and what gets to the speakers through recording/encoding/machine-playing are 2 different things? That regardless what great equipment you may have used in recording, the listener's playing equipment can make those 2 things hugely different? Not to mention youtube video encoding limits?
You are right but that doesn't mean that one wont be able to get the point of the video...
You don't get it, the most important is to hear the difference. The most important when you watch a movie, is to hear the difference tone between actors, than to know for real what are their voice. This is a demonstration.
This is quite interesting, and I could easily hear differences in the tone after each step.
However, what was most interesting to me, was that I thought the tone at 5:31 was very similar to the tone at 4:34.
You can move the play marker back and forth between those two time points to confirm this. I did. The tone at 5:31 may have a bit more sustain, but it is more similar to the 100 year old hammer you started with than any of intermediate steps. It thought you almost went in a circle. Was that intentional? Were you showing you could make the new hammer sound like the old one?
Thanks for sharing. Anyone know after the voicing is done, will it return to the original timbre after some time?
Thank you Sally!!!!!
You made everything to be understood easily
Hello, great technical video Sally, thanks for that work. all but easy
the 'new american hammers' are not lacquered at all , or do you mean no addition after initial one (Steinway) ?
I may listen with headphones, but I hear lacquered heads ...
Best regards
Holy shit, can I relate! I have a 29 Gulbransen that has the OG hammers and felts. I have replaced most of the dampers and adjusted the action but those hammers....sound like dick. I hate to replace them but I may need to. I will try voicing with the needles first.
Hammers are a bitch to replace.
What could go wrong?!
Thanks for the info.
Very interesting. It is easy to hear when it is pointed out
Fantastic!
Thank you SO much for the video! Very useful information!!!
thanks for posting this its very helpful
Very instructive post on voicing. Lack of voicing on my new upright Kawai
K-3 results in extreme unevenness in tone--to the point of utter distraction when practicing. It's terrible! A complaint to the dealer was met with the terse statement, "Uprights, unlike grands, do not need to be voiced, ever."
Your dealer is full of crap. They just don't want to pay a technician to voice your piano because it might cost them a few bucks. You should complain to Kawai USA and maybe they can recommend someone for you. I voice pianos everyday and you would be suprised the sound you can get out of any piano if you know what you are doing!!
Bardzo dobrze ....
Jackie. This piano is not one year old and has had two tunings. Personally I do not think the dealer's technician who has tuned the instrument knows what he is doing. I thought tuners used tuning forks; he uses some kind of digital read-out. That leads me to wonder if he's up to the task. The problem is that I do not get a chance to really hear what he has done until after he leaves my home. He's quick in and quick out and cannot play at all so I can assess things. The uneveness seems worse after he leaves. Now I'm hearing a real lack of sustain in the second Bb above middle C. The Ab right below it has a nice long sustain, but the Bb is not nearly as bright and decays much more quickly and just dies on the vine. I'm new to acoustics but this does not seem right. I'm pretty upset with this situation. I think I will call Kawai. Thanks for getting back.
joeb434 I'm now in the same position as you were - my new Kawai (a K-500) which I've had for less than a year has uneven brightness and sustain which I notice most in the region of the keyboard you described. Did you get a voicing done on your K-3? What were the results like? This video suggests it's something I need to look at.
About your tuner using a digital device, he might have just been using it in the same role as a tuning fork - to provide a reference pitch (e.g. middle A = 440Hz) around which the rest of the piano is then tuned by ear.
MathsYknow Yes I did have the K3 voiced a couple of months ago. Since the dealer would not help I called Kawai and they agreed to pay a local technician (not the dealer) for voicing the instrument. This was for a "corrective" voicing, not a voicing based upon my personal tastes. They were nice about the situation. I explained to the tech about the uneveness of various tones and pointed out those keys that were off--particularly in the middle register. Some minor filing of selected hammers was done. The tech said some of the hammers were not hitting the strings square on. The whole process did not take long. I seemed to notice some improvement but it was not dramatic and in fact the piano has resorted to its old ways with some notes still off big time!
Summary: I would never buy a Kawai upright again. While the cabinetry of this K3 is outstanding, the sound producing part of the instrument demonstrates a lack of quality control. While the K3 is not an expensive upright, it seems like Kawai (and/or the dealer) could shore up the omissions inherent in the production line process with a little more human attention and prepping. I'm now in the market for a new grand piano as I've had it will uprights in general. Rest assured that I will not be looking at Kawai's new GX Blak models. Hope this helps.
găp h
Most of the top piano technicians that I have met can tune by ear but find it faster and more accurate to use a modern electronic machine. The Steinway technicians I have met use an electronic tuner.
If the tuning sounds bad a day after its tuned then the tuner did a bad job. electronic tuning devices are for the most part far more accurate that humans and makes for a much more reliable and stable dune, however that doesn't mean any old person can tune pianos with an electronic tuning device. You will hear a lot of bad press about electronic tuning deviced by people who have never used them so don't determine a lack of experience if you see someone using it as they can be very helpful when tuning the high bell tones that many older tuners out there can no longer hear. This doesn't mean that you cannot get a bad tuning with an electronic tuning device though. there are many new piano tuners that have had no training aside from a few RUclips videos that will go through the piano, however they will often not be able to tune unisons very well which is really the most important part of tuning since 90% of people can't hear a difference unless a note is 10 cents out of tun, but people definitely notice unisons which is one of the 3 strings the hammer hits being slightly off.
A lot of those japanese and chinese brand pianos such as yamaha, kawaii, peral river, and young cheng tend to be unstable and require a tuning every 4 months for the first couple of years since the string and wood are still settling and adapting to the temperature. If you are in a very humid climate or your house changes terperature drasticly (i mean like its 50 at night and 90 durring the day so extreme) and that can cause it
however it shouldn't be out of tun to the point of noticing for at least 2-3 months on a brand new piano. after a year it should be more stable, but also a major issue that can happen with inexperienced tuners is that they don't have the proper technique making for an unstable tune so as soon as its played it goes way too far out of tune. this is something you wouldn't notice until a few days after they leave, but if its out of tune 2 days later then you got a problem.
For me, I would want the sustain to be short, rather than as long as possible. A short sustain is more natural sounding for what is essentially a percussion instrument, and more suitable for historical repertoire.
ehh, that's why there is this technique called non legato for playing a shortor sustained sounds, if the piano naturally has a longer sustain, the player has more options to either play legato or non legato.
I don't really know how a shorter sustain would sound on a modern piano, but I do know that the long sustain of the modern piano is detrimental to nonlegato playing. A long sustain (together with soft attack and a slower 'blooming' sound) doesn't give you more options - it just shifts the options in the direction of legato. It makes clear classical phrasing sound hiccupy. In Mozart you have all those breaks of slurs where you're supposed to lift your fingers off, without connecting the sounds. With a modern piano it sounds hiccupy because you've cut off the sound before it had time to develop. Whereas with a fortepiano or clavichord, with immediate attack and short sustain, you can do very clean, well-articulated phrasing. There's a video that shows this: ruclips.net/video/ixKath2K0Mw/видео.html
i just watched the video, i guess that makes sense. There's a very clear difference.
You might be interested in the "harmonic" 4th pedal found on some Feurich grands. Look it up on youtube.
if you want test different voice and sound you should first use a better music. not this random note with no harmony. holy crap. i msorry because i was interested
My god, what is the noise at the beginning of the video? Is it supposed to be music?
Lol
That song sounds horrible ugh. Why such a bad song choice