Jake's War Map Revealed
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- A look at a photo of Everest that Jake Norton marked up for his 2019 search for Mallory and Irvine and how the locations of the ice axe and George Mallorys body are significantly different than what Jake is saying now.
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The photo at 0:41 is from the same Spanish video, but it is taken from a drone. It appears there was a second drone -- one used by Discovery, not Nat Geo. The two teams were on the mountain at the same time in 2019. The drone was flown high up the mountain on a day in which there was little snow coverage. Other than that brief shot, nothing from that drone has been released, and any other photo from that flight have been kept completely secret.
the funny thing about that Discover video, the premise of the whole episode is "oh if we can just climb around this very dangerous corner maybe we can check out this perilous ledge where Irvine might be." Then they show you a gorgeous high-res drone shot of their high camp.
I thought the humor was "oh, our best climbers with years of high altitude experience will take a hour to get over there during the daylight, but Irvine descending at night after Mallory fell would naturally just stumble on over there."
It is clear that the 1999 team members (and later Mark Synnott) have versions of events that they portray to the public while entirely different processes and motivations are going on behind the scenes. In an Outside Magazine article after the 1999 expedition, Jochen Hemlebb calls the ice axe a “red herring.” While on the mountain, though, the climbers bee lined for the ice axe fall line and initially assumed the body that Conrad Anker found at roughly the published Chinese altitude description was Irvine because it was under what they assumed to be Irvine’s ice axe. Despite this being recorded in published radio communications, the photos published in Ghosts of Everest show an ice axe location that isn’t lined up with the location Mallory was found at.
In the same article, Hemmleb calls Mallory’s watch a “dead end.” Thom Pollard shared a photo of the watch showing a time of roughly 1:27 and later published in online in 2004. This doesn’t stop Hemlebb from reporting that the time on the watch was 12:53 and speculate that Mallory broke it jamming his hand into a crack in the Second Step at the time of the Odell sighting in his final climb analysis on his website in 2009. This “fact” convinces Jochen that the sighting was at the Second Step and not the Third Step despite him mentioning how well the Third Step matches Odell’s description of events.
Jochen Hemlebb’s search manual reports that Eric Simonson saw TWO oxygen bottles by a large boulder in 1987. Peter Firstbrook says that there were two bottles recovered. Dave Hahn seems to think that there were two or perhaps one was moved. The official story was that Tap Richards and Jake Norton recovered it from a location Simonson directed them to within three minutes while descending in a storm. Jake now says he wasn’t with Richards when he recovered it, and we have only one bottle discovered at an ever shifting location. In a post expedition press conference, Eric Simonson says that this bottle, wherever it was found, proves that Mallory and Irvine were on the North East Ridge in 1924. But by the time it was found, Dave Hahn was already recording Conrad Anker attempting the Second Step to see if Mallory could have done it. So the route theory came before the “evidence” was discovered. Note no photos were taken of the place the oxygen bottle was actually found..
There seems to be some movement from Jake, Thom, etc away from Mallory and Irvine taking the ridge route. However, this is almost always tied to something like a quote from Messner saying that the zig-zag route was impossible. Meanwhile, they each seem to have high quality drone footage of the route on their laptops, which they make zero effort to analyze so as to determine why it would be impossible.
In The Third Pole, Synnott claimed to launch an expedition on the “secret knowledge” of Irvine’s body being located in the “Holzel Slot.” If you read the footnotes, he mentions that the slot area was already searched by Frank Smythe in 1933 and probably Jake Norton in 2004. So there is good reason for him to be skeptical of the Holzel Slot before leaving for Tibet. Now, after extensive unshared drone searching, he claims to believe a discredited story that the body and the camera were both removed by the Chinese.
Note that Ghosts of Everest, Detectives on Everest and The Third Pole all received Chinese publication deals. All believe the Chinese made it in 1960, none mention summit rocks as anti-fragile climb verification items (and Hemlebb can’t even cut and paste the part about the 1960 team presenting Chairman Mao with 9 summit rocks). This despite Simonson and Hemlebb both pursuing Master’s Degrees in Geology and Synnott quoting the “Because it is there” article where Mallory talks about intending to gather rocks from the summit.
A good analysis. I will only add that Mark Synnott called me well prior to his expedition and I explained the issue with the Holzel slot and that there was simply nothing there. He felt the drone would find anything if Irvine was there or somewhere else. I was skeptical they could get a drone in without Chinese permission and that would imply the Chinese wanted something.
Now, they like to pretend I don't exist -- but it is the same theme -- one conversation in private -- a completely different narrative in public.
Good observation about both Hemmleb and Simonson being geologist. I guess that answers the question of How many geologist does it take to not look rock summit rocks?
Супер!!!! Они издеваются над нами.свои домыслы выдают за факты, тянут время....а правда уходит дальше. Это открытие достояние всего человечества. Никто не имеет права скрывать истину.
I recently started diving into the whole 'Did Mallory & Irving make it?' mythos, and your videos have been extraordinarily helpful for taking a seemingly ugly and tangled bag of snakes and laying them out straight for us. Cheers, Michael.
Welcome, there are more than 24 hours of videos which are sure to cure your insomnia.
This series is so good, keep up the great work, Michael
Love the Channel. I really look forward to the videos. 😊
Again Michael, thank you very much for your great work. Do you think there will be a big reveal in 2024 that they found irvines body, because of the 100th year anniversary?
This will be the first time westerns can get to the mountain after 2019. Technically, it was open the fall of this year, but Conrad Anker was banned from entry. I suspect that had something to do with the "Big Reveal."
It will be a "Big Reveal" one way or the other. (1) they find Irvine, (2) they release the drone footage and other photos, or (3) they do neither of these. Any of those will be a big deal to people who are actively involved in this "mystery." Obviously, a fully transparent finding of Irvine would be ideal. But that is not going to happen. Probably the best we can hope for is #3 as then people in this channel will know what likely happened and we won't have to deal with the endless Yak Dung they spew out to "prove" he didn't make it based on whatever Yak Dung they put out about the find.
Why would Jake Norton and others keep people in the dark with possible information. Is it possible he has made a mistake with his maps which are not to scale with co-ords etc?
Or Are they possibly waiting for the 100 yr anniversary to blow our minds with info they have witheld.
Daft question i know, but has anyone ever follwed the line from GM body up to the ice axe for any clues either with a scope or in person or this is even possible.
Thanks for your info on this subject .
I emailed Jake about these "errors" when they first came out. Initially, you needed to pay to view the map, and I paid to see his work. No problem with that, and I thought, as you seem to, that it was just a mistake or inadvertence on his part. But it has been years now, and it has not been corrected. I discuss the issues with the oxygen bottle in "Response to Jake Norton, Part 1" where the problem is the ever moving location of the oxygen bottle -- as yes, it moves once again in this video.
They didn't move the oxygen bottle in this video because of a "mistake." It was moved to "prove" their point that they took the ridge. And while a very very small group of people take the time to scrutinize their content, the narrative they continue to push goes unchecked by the vast majority of people looking into this issue.
There is the "Big Reveal" theory in which they are waiting to 2024 to announce the find of Irvine. They likely found him in 2019, as flying a drone when there was so little snow would likely find him. There are numerous other reasons to believe this has happened, and I'll get into them in an upcoming video.
I hope the "Big Reveal" theory is true. In the end, finding Irvine would obviously soften the blow of all the lies and deceit. @@michaeltracy2356
Thanks for the reply
@@michaeltracy2356 Sadly I think you're right. This is worse than the time people made the assertion that a successful summit requires a successful decent. A drone making this "discovery" is the biggest cheat I can think of. There was no threat to life or limb and is a cowardly way to make such an huge find.
The discovery should go to an individual prepared to risk it all for the biscuit imo.
@@michaeltracy2356 hopefully, they didn't chop his body up like Mallory's...just saying.
Me. Tracy I'll ask here and hope I don't find it in a future(to me) video but do you have an updated discord link? If it's available in a later(future) video I'll just catch it there.
Another shocking twist.
What's the distance between the ice axe and Mallory's body? I'm looking at that low res map and finding difficult how Mallory fell from ice axe to his present location. Is it possible that his body was higher up the mountain and time and the elements have pushed him down to the present location?
In 2005, an Indian climber, Chaitanya fell from the ridge and his body was reported by Russel Brice as being close to Mallory's. As Brice was there in 1999, he knows exactly where Mallory was. As a climber fell from the ridge to Mallory's location, that is sufficient for me to determine that not only is it possible to happen, but it is also very likely as in one of the few times a known fall location is correlated with a known body location, it happens to match almost exactly with Mallory.
Well alright. Thanks for the quick reply. @@michaeltracy2356
Several climbers have said that if Mallory had fallen from the ridge, his body would not have been in such good condition. Seems he took a shorter fall while traversing the north face after descending through the couloir after reaching the summit.
Much of what has been said is out right false or just speculation. In the Undiscovered video, Jake Norton's team finds a body in the Mallory basin and they investigate to see if it is Irvine. The video is in Spanish, and it is difficult to hear the English -- you can get the video on Amazon and hear exactly what they say. They say the body is not broken up at all.
As above, given that there is a body near Mallory that is not broken up at all, it is very likely that Mallory -- who had a massive fracture in his leg fell under similar circumstances. There is no reason to believe the dead climber who as not broken up at all was climbing anywhere other than on the ridge. They do note the body is a newer one, so likely not Chaitanya who died in 2005.
As I note in this video, there is a narrative push that Mallory did not fall from the ice axe site. Jake moves the ice axe location to make it look like such a fall is not possible. Others says nonsense about bodies not being broken up. There is no where in the basin Mallory could fall from and break his leg like that. The basin is an area in which falling climbers slow down and come to a stop. This is evidenced by the large number of bodies that are in the Mallory basin. The most likely explanation for the "broken up" bodies is that the person died clipped to the ropes and froze in place. Years later, they were pushed down the mountain and broke up during the fall due to being frozen. Numerous people have died clipped to the ropes and been pushed down later -- Francys Arsentiev is one of them.
ruclips.net/video/QnnmsNwksC8/видео.html
@@michaeltracy2356 Michael do you have the link to the full doco link you shared?
GIT 'EM!!!! GIT'EM MICHAEL!!!
I guess my biggest question is why there is such attention to detail with some reports and a laissez-faire attitude to others despite the fact that people KNOW every single detail will be scrutinized for days. I'm not ready to attribute it to nefarious motives yet but the only other reason that makes sense is laziness coupled with arrogance.
Laziness could explain a lot, but there is the issue of the oxygen bottle being moved which I have covered in a couple of videos. As that cannot be explained by laziness and also requires a bit of advanced planning and cunning, I tend to go with the theory that explains all the facts rather than hoping that people are honest about everything. Thom Pollard also described the entire team as a bunch of liars, cheaters, and deceivers, so I'll agree with Thom on this one. ruclips.net/video/NRbhT4eQXxY/видео.html
You have a similar report from Conrad Anker that he was asked to lie about what happened on the expedition to make the team look better. Dave Hahn refused to go along with it.
Eric said that we had to agree on an official account that would be what the public would hear, and that it would be a challenge for us to do this in a way that reflected positively on everyone involved. I think he felt that a near-fiasco might undermine the story of the successful search expedition he had led. But Dave said, ‘If we don’t tell the whole truth, Conrad doesn’t get the credit he deserves.’
Anker, Conrad; Roberts, David. The Lost Explorer (p. 193). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.
So, there are numerous reason to believe there is more than just laziness behind this.
I cant imagine how frustrating it must be for you Michael to have searched yourself 2018 knowing that if you and your team found him keep being silent until another time he gets recovered professionally to avoid the 99 mistakes and then one year later another team with suspicious responses to asking of footage and then covid hit. The curiosity must kill you. (It does for me)
It does, but I am more worried about how these people will use the. "find" of Irvine to push their narrative that Mallory and Irvine didn't make it in 1924 but the Chinese did in 1960. If I thought there was a remote possibility that these guys would honestly search the body for summit rocks, I wouldn't worry about it. And, of course, much like 1999, the video of the "search" will never be seen.
Are you implying that the two said 'parties' have an agreement and in exchange the 1960 Summit is be upheld for the finding of Irvine? Did that make sense , I'm being cautious of my wording.
I wouldn't worry so much about what other people think. Look at it for yourself. Do you believe the Chinese made it in 1960? If you don't care, then that is the end of it for you. If think there are major problems with their story, then try to find out why people are pushing so hard that they made it. Why won't they answer question is about why they think they made it. Then think for yourself as to why these people keep doing videos and talking about the 1960 expedition saying they made it.
@@dannydangelo762
Unfortunately that makes total sense. I have a feeling that reason will be revealed soon.
Мені також дивно що майже все обстежили і нічого незнайшли, дякую вам за відео, привіт з України
I obviously don’t know Mr Tracy or his sense of humor even after watching for years, but I cannot tell one bit if he respects the hell out of Jake and enjoys poking fun at minor things as a means of affection or if he thinks Jake is a galactic dipshit.
It is not really either of those. Much of this I cover in the Rashomon video. What is going on here is just part of the human condition. And whatever I think about Jake, positive or negative, he is a human being. Thus, Rashomon applies. In this aspect, he is no better, no worse than any other human being. The problem comes up when people think that their particular hero is not subject to the same issues as every other human being on the planet.
It is not as simple as "Jake good" or "Jake bad." One of the next videos will be using some info from Jake as being accurate as opposed to what others are saying. In other cases, I disagree with him.
I also understand that he is not operating in a vacuum. There is tremendous pressure for these people (Jake, Thom, Mark, etc) to say certain things. They have careers in this field, and they aren't going to ruin them just so they stop appearing in Michael Tracy RUclips videos. It is more like professional wrestling than you think.
@@michaeltracy2356 Fair enough. And you have said similar things about Thom and Mark in the past. I think part of my own filtering bias is that I don't think I could pick Jake out of a lineup, despite having a mutual acquaintance, whilst Pollard and Synod are fairly difficult to escape in the current era, just as Anker was fifteen years ago. Also, once the gestalt flips on some of their (mark, conrad, thom) more bananas contradictions it becomes so obvious as to seem malicious or at least deliberate. Which is part of what you're saying, it's just harder to grasp their motive and the pressure they face that would cause them to dissemble and confabulate on top of the normal range. It's much easier to understand a wistful mistake than a deliberate piece of misinformation that may be the result of shame, deceit, or simply prioritizing what to give a shit about. Your wrestling analogy is apt, because I'm much more likely to think of the film Kagemusha than I am Rashomon when I hear these guys talk; It matters so much less what exactly they say and if it's factually true than whether or not they are correctly playing the role they have caught themselves in. I honestly don't know much about what pressures they face and I would be curious to hear more about that if you ever have time. I might be ignorant, but I just don't think it's as straightforward as having to be consistently self-aggrandizing as self-employed mountaineering personalities. Is there something greater that they are unified in trying to protect? it seems unlikely based on how disorganized the community is, but if it were organized knowledge could spread and become liability.
It's very hard not to project some purpose into the gaps, especially in the case of Mark, and somewhat for Jake. (Respectfully, some of the "mistakes" pointed out here I see as probable misunderstandings of space, intent, and aspect when I look at the maps, but I'm obviously not familiar with the mountain while you are.) I think think the boundary between lazy mistakes and willful dissembling is very blurry in his case and it strikes me as odd for someone who is obviously intellectually capable of creating a tighter web of deceit if that were his purpose. I think an average person could keep their story straighter if they cared. So he's either spreading bullshit on purpose but isn't smart enough to be good at it, or the lying is a byproduct of some other goal and he just doesn't care enough about the misinformation to stay organized. Maybe that is exactly what you mean when you talk about a post truth world. The third alternative I suppose is that he is trying hard to follow a community-approved narrative that obfuscates the truth but the goalposts keep being moved, the right thing to say keeps changing for one reason or another. Possibly to hide information from other nations or climbers, or to appease egos whose influence rise and set like the moon.
@@michaeltracy2356 I've misspelled Mark's name, that's silly. too similar to theological terms from a long time ago.
Probably a dumb mistake, but sure let’s go straight for malice 😂
Yeah. I pointed out the mistake to him -- years ago. I exchanged numerous emails and messages about similar issues and I did a whole video explaining exact what the problems are and why they matter. But hey, you watched a RUclips video, so you must know everything.
Dude, I wouldn’t tell any of my hundred thousand subs to buy something from the knuckleheads, might be funding ignorance.
I don’t understand your channel
You should probably move on because you clearly don't possess common sense
Is comprehension a poor part of your skill set ?