Can You Listen To Railway Radio Comms?
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
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A look at the radio system widely used across Europe and beyond in train communications; GSM-R. Can you listen to it? What does it do? Find out here!
I'm a signaller in the High Peak/Hope Valley area and can confirm all this info is absolutely spot on! Great research...GSMR is still not used to it's full potential in a lot of absolute block areas as it is in the ROCs, but it's much better than the old NRN 'ship to shore' that we used to use. Quite often you wouldn't be able to make out what the driver was saying and have to ask them to drop down to the box if they were stood at the home signal to speak face to face!
lol the old Rule 55 "during Fog & Falling Snow, to the Box you must go." Section K now? Been a while here. Yeah the old Network had all the Clarity of Two Cocoa Tins and a bit of string.'
@@BobbinsBIt's in S4 these days.
Used to hear a lot of test calls over nrn. Band III/Nat 1 was a good system but whether it suited the railways.. well doesn’t sound too good. Did RETB work as well as the BR videos under noisy conditions?
Verness vale area?
@@BritishTightEnd yeah started at Furness vale 21 yrs ago...still work there sometimes...nice little level crossing box👍
I was excited to see this video because I use GSM-R on a very regular basis - but I’m not one of the people mentioned, I’m a Train Guard! We use it often, from the rear cab, to make phone calls to our control for various reasons, as often on our routes mobile phones can be unreliable or unusable. We also use it in the event of an emergency, if the driver is incapacitated, or otherwise unable to make calls to the signaller. It’s a very useful tool, and I very much appreciate having it available. The quality and availability is almost landline like.
US railroads use frequencies in the 160 - 161 MHz range,
easily heard (if you are close enough to the train) with a basic scanner.
I like to hear the trackside detectors that use an electronic voice
to report the number of axles and any notable faults, among other data.
Interesting, thank you, I'm near some big railways
GSM-R most used messages....
Train driver: SG
Signalbox: Wait
😃
With the friendly "meep meep" to go with it
Excellent Lewis - covered most of my railway career 🤣 Radio on the railways moved through a number of eras;
Local VHF for engineering work control - Local UHF (remember the PF1) for marshalling yard and station control - wide area automatic* Mid Band for engineering works control - UHF 'secure' 4 channel UIC Specification for Driver Only Operation areas (Moregate-Bedford & GN electrification area ) - UHF Cab Secure (BR specification) to avoid the excessive channel requirements of the UIC system to allow DOO to be extended - replacement of the Mid Band system with the NRN MPT 1327 Band III network** - Expansion of the Band III Network to include non secure comms to trains (NRN Overlay) - introduction of the chain repeater RETB Network in Scotland - GSM-R
* The Mid Band automatic system used 5 tone ZVEI SelCall to alert radios and DTMF for radios to dial in - the network was connected directly to BR's private, country wide, telephone network, there were no operators as such but direct lines were connected to Electric Control Rooms
** The NRN used 1327 signalling and like the Mid Band II system connected directly into the phone network, Electrification Control Rooms had direct line connections as did the Regional Control Offices.
Both the VHF systems suffered from under investment in base stations hence some of the comments raised about their performance but at a technical level they were pretty much 'out at the front' for their time - the NRN MPT 1327 system being the first 'On Air' use of the Specifications from Waterloo Bridge House.
What would you listen to? As a Train Driver we hardly ever make voice calls using GSMR. The most commonly used function is to ping the Signaller using the SG button to which they respond with a 'Wait' text message displayed on the screen. You'll only hear voice calls in emergency, receiving recorded broadcast (ie poor weather speed restrictions) or when trains are requesting to leave sidings.
REC calls are not nice to listen to :/
That's a pity, I prefer talking to people, not sending messages at them 😿
In the US, you can definitely listen to railroad radio system legally. In fact, many scanners are capable of receiving the railroad band. It’s basically like listening to the police or fire bands.
Which makes you wonder about the quality of our system -- or would if we had lots of derailments and other safety issues. Luckily, our rails seem to run perfect with older technology.
@@Sv5YpWTwd9otTA4So83fno comm system will repair neither bogies nor tracks
@@Sv5YpWTwd9otTA4So83fCongress has several rail companies in their cross hairs now after two derailments in Ohio in the past few months, one of which was carrying hazmat chemicals which resulted in a whole community having to partially evacuate. Perhaps what little profits they make are probably passed on to shareholders and the big ass CEO's instead of improving rail grades, signaling, crossings and train trucks and their axels. Here in Greece several months ago there was a head on collision on the line between Athens and Thessaloniki where almost one hundred people, mainly students were heading home or to university lost their lives when the passenger train hit a freight train. Human error and the failure of the government to install state of the art equipment that they bought over two decades ago with EU funds but had been left in storage to rust while funds to install said equipment went into various pockets of individuals. BTW the old gent who was on duty at the switch board that fateful night was supposed to be supervised, he had only recently completed his "training". 60 years old and a sheep herder by trade and about as bright as a neon lamp, rumor has it some politician got him this job, they are all in hot water but as things go here, it will get swept under the carpet.
Err. 'like listening to POLICE bands' ? You mean US police transmit plain unencrypted voice channels ? They do realise criminals can listen in, right ? Is it a constitutional thing that all police comms be publicly available?
@@quantisedspace7047 It’s not a constitutional right that the transmissions have to be unencrypted. In fact, many police departments have already changed over to encrypted transmissions over radio, although a few smaller departments that get very little criminal activity may still use unencrypted systems. As time goes on, more and more of the smaller departments will likely get encrypted technology like bigger cities do. I simply provided it as an example as that was the first thing I could think of at the time. Hopefully this clears things up.
Very good description and very accurate. I am a freight train driver now, but I drove Eurostars to Paris and Brussels for 18 years. If I remember correctly Belgium had GSM-R before France and the UK. Our International Train Radios changed system automatically entering each new system.
Correct, after the ITR became redundant it all went over to the bi-mode.
GSM-R is a much better system than the primitive NRN that it replaced. You could however, sometimes get an ‘outside line’ on NRN and call home! You could retune to channel 200 & listen to other radio networks in the area, such as bus drivers talking to base. Channel 250 became popular on boring late shifts as you could listen/talk to fellow drivers. One driver used to bring a little stereo & a load of cassettes & take music requests! All very sackable today!
Oh right on mate, Yeah I looked for years and I could never find "The Holy Grail" number seq. One of the Goods Guards (Trainman as they became) seemed to be able to give his wife a "wake up call" from Metal Box sdgs in Westhougton, but wouldnt share the d*m secret, I like the idea of tunes while you drive but alas the racket from the Engine Room and rattling stove on a 47 would alas drown it out.
An additional feature : Passenger announcements (PA) can be made from the GSMR devices on train (or from off train control). This uses the UIC analog signalling throughout the train.
This is a fallback ... usually PA is carried through VOIP on the train networks.
In ICE trains, the passenger announcements could even be made through the internal DECT network, which was linked to GSM-R to receive or make outbound calls.
The same here in germany. GSM on the railway. Only in the depot analog 2 meters. Thanks for the video.
In Poland national railways still use Simplex VHF comms between 150...152MHz. Sometimes they are still using 40 years old Xtal controlled radios installed in locomotives long time ago, although usually there are more recent PLL devices. Therse are not typical Motorola, Vertex or Icom stuff. All railroad radios (even HT) must have specific acceptance done by national railroad regulating body. Main cabin radio must be capable of transmit and receive something, what is called RADIOSTOP. This is just simple 3 tone CCIR selcal sequence which immediately engage emergency braking in all trains which receives this transmission. There are only few HTs which has approval to be used in the train networks. This is why rail companies are buing old Motorola GP360 radios and why GP360 is so expensive on Poland. Because this is one of few which can be legally used. There is a GSM-R network underconstruction, but as for now the project is delayed by 2 years from initial rollout and nobody knows when it will be finish. After our socialistic goverment started to fight with EU a lot of funds have been cut and GSM-R is one of victims of it.
GSM-R is not a victim of fight with EU. It is a victim of incompetence. They started public bid for it without rights to properties all the infrastructure has to be built on. So essentially, aside of single stretch of PKM line GSM-R is not functional. Aside of that, ETCS L2 of PKM and PLK are not connected, so each train coming in and out of junction stations has to be announced both by POTS landline (connecting Local Control Centers) and VHF call. For the PKM project GSM-R was essential, as terrain obstructs VHF communication and there are no train dispatchers on stations. Everything is controlled by one LCC. Of course, double analogue exchange makes everything related to timetables very hard to manage, so additional guard times are required for train crossing (even with separate pair of tracks and crossing outside of junction head). That makes for relatively low frequency on this dedicated line.
Great video! I know DadRail has done a couple of videos explaining how GSMR works from an operational perspective but this one shows the technical side of it
Thanks for the reference to DadRail - that looks like another interesting channel to subscribe to! ;-))
Glad you mentioned *Leaky Feeders* - I have been fascinated by those ever since I first heard about them back in the 90s! It's something you don't often come across, and their use in train tunnels seems like an ideal application. Thanks for this video by the way - the number of train geeks following your channel will increase exponentially if you keep going like this!!
Stephen, you’re gonna love my next video mate…
@@RingwayManchester That doesn't sound ominous at all...
Back in the day the NCB (British Coal) employed a disused rail tunnel at Glenfield near Leicester as a test site to evaluate leaker feeder technology and its potential for use as an underground radio provider. This was around 1984-88. I bumped into it again with LUL, then Network Rail. Coal Board research was ahead of its time. Good thing Thatcher closed it all down.
I'm guessing the use of leaky feeders is due to their cheapness rather than a distributed antenna system, as I'm sure the leaky feeder is an incredibly inefficient system for power to area covered. A lot simpler to install also I guess, needs very knowledge for the cable install/placement
Also TFL use a lot of leaky feeders in their underground stations, which I assume is just for platform staff/security etc rather than being for the trains.
One of the best things about GSM-R is that the driver no longer has to climb down to use the signal post telephones.
Spot on Lewis lad another good Vid again, I remember the old BR Radio System but it wasn't very reliable, you could use it to contact the Signal Man if you wanted to avoid the walk to the Box, (although you were supposed to use the SPT provided) most of the time the Radios were broken or of poor audible quality but interestingly "plumbed in" to the Railway Phone Network and thus the Train crews quite often went on a search for the number sequence for "outside lines." (seeing as local calls in the UK weren't free then) To be fair the Phones in the Driving cabs often had a hard life so its no wonder half of them didn't work, although occasionally they did crackle to life with "Emergency Messages" but generally, initiated from Regional? "Control" cant ever remember getting an Emergency Message from a Box. Glad to see the new systems have a little bit more use than the old systems used to have. Certainly a lot easier than climbing in and out the Cab on a miserable night and stumbling around on the Ballast in the dark. 😉
In Australia, Metro Trains Melbourne use GSM-R at 1800Mhz for the DTRS (Digital Train Radio System) which replaced an MPT-1327 UHF network in the early 00's.
If you want to listen in, you need to sit up front behind the drivers cab to hear any traffic directed to your train/line etc...
Same in Sydney . Melbourne went with a Siemens/Nokia solution Sydney with a Huawei / Frequentis /Funkwerk solution
This video is right up with your best Numbers Stations videos. Excellent. If you get a chance, can you try and do a video on the London Underground and other UK sub-surface railway comms systems, please.
TfL Use GSM-R for all comms now days
Thanks Lewis. I always wondered how this system works.
Also, thanks for your curiosity and willingness to share your knowledge!
I remember the old Stornophone 4000 handsets back in the day, they were on low band VHF if I recall correctly. You could call ordinary phones on the railway phone network as well as other mobiles, but I don't think it was possible to contact the PSTN.
This is great video explaining what them masts are for. I often seen one and wondered what their use was for.
I worked on the railway at the turn of the century while these legacy systems were still in use. As a guard I would have loved a system like this especially on a network with a lot of tunnels. I wasn’t issued with a mobile phone, so I had to use the platform phones to contact control as CSR was only available to drivers. For us NRN would have been an upgrade!
2G encryption is completely broken unless this is some sort of modified 2G. I got to see some cool video marketing material for US train communications. It sounded somewhat similar but no mention of 2G in the marketing material. It had point to point radio communication between the front and back of the train for telemetry when there were no towers.
Wasn’t there an update to the voice encryption in the mid-00s?
Or was that the encryption protecting the unique SIM ID number (edit key/Ki)…
@@kaitlyn__L The updates have been to each generation. 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G. A "downgrade attack" convinces a phone that only 2G is available because it's encryption is weak and can be broken. Android 13 let's you disable 2G and Android 14 specifically introduced a feature so IT administrators can disable 2G to prevent downgrade attacks.
@@jmr I’m aware that the basic technology is in those generations. But I remember reading a thing about the on-SIM encryption being improved to prevent cloning, MITM attacks, listening-in, etc. Just for regular GSM. SIM cloners pay a premium for older SIMs, and these changes predate the introduction of GSM-R to the UK railways.
But what I’m not sure about is if there’s other on-air encryption besides that which is unlocked by the SIM ID code. The thing I read said the updated SIM encryption hasn’t yet been cracked, and that makes sense when it comes to wanting to clone an entire SIM, but maybe you don’t actually need a valid ID to brute force the on-air voice data anymore.
(Edit: just remembered it’s called the key/Ki; so that I’m not just saying “SIM ID”)
@@jmr no downgrade needed, GSM-R is still 2G GSM
Always appreciate your insights mate
Can confirm I work with GSM-R terminals here in Australia.. Unfortunately the speech codec used isnt the best and the system we have here in New south Wales had a meltdown recently when the redundant core didn't kick in... Love it or hate it's here to stay.
US rail still uses VHF analog. 160MHz. Completely open to listening. Some private/transit operators do use other things like P25. Some of the few TETRA systems in the US are for transit system railroads.
That's right, this can be verified by watching one of the many train spotting RUclipsrs in the US.
There’s also a small amount of digital used on class ones but it’s mostly just yard traffic and support stuff. Over 20 years ago many people proclaimed the death of basic road comm listening, but here we still are.
We, in the U.S., also use NXDN.
@@jayrogers8255 If you listen to "Jaw Tooth" who is an almost daily train vlogger on RUclips you will see he always has a Baofeng with him and he listens to the rail defect detecters and talk between trains on and around 160 Mhz.
Most of the trains he films are "Norfolk Southern" and "CSX" goods trains and many are so long that they take more than 8 minutes to go by, most of his filming is done around the Ohio area and nearby states.
@@gzappa I’ll have to check it out; thanks!
I'm surprised at your level of detailed knowledge on GSM-R.
It's a fascinating system which sadly is quite largely under utilised.
I don't believe it's possible to eavesdrop on the network but that's not to say a radio pro wouldn't be able to!
In Poland a legacy system running at 150MHz and above is still in use by national railways. It is slowly being phased out by GSM-R, but I suspect it will still function for decades around railway branches, cargo/freight stations, etc. in places where gsm-r is really not absolutely necessary.
Here in North America we have been using Narrow FM two-way for decades. I can use my UV-5R to listen in and track trains. Will be sad when we move to something more encrypted like you have overseas. I do love listening to the radio chatter but I'm sure the end is more near than far.
They've been theoretically moving to NXDN for years, but the investment is so large it's been happening very slowly, if at all.
I have no idea whether there's encryption, but I suspect not given interoperability requirements.
Link Light Rail in the Puget Sound uses the new PSERN P25 network and last time I checked it was unencrypted (they own track and trains, and are the sole user so it's better to have interop capabilities with other local services instead)
YAY more train content! Here in canada, scanning railway radios is usually fine. Some railways now use encrypted radios that can’t be listened to, but many don’t. defect detectors and some radio-using trackside equipment can be scanned too. Sadly, my local automated rail rapid transit system, “SkyTrain”, just switched to encrypted digital radio last week, after 4 decades of analog radio use. So I can’t get insider info as quickly anymore, sadly. Or make spreadsheets of when and where incidents occur. But oh well, I guess I can still be a SkyTrain enthusiast without a radio. It does sadden me how many services are going digital now, it feels like it’s killing the hobby of scanner/shortwave listening, especially among railway and transport enthusiasts.
Great video though!
Im thinking it would be pretty difficult to use a gsm based system here in Canada due to the amount of track and the amount of it through very remote areas
@@juliogonzo2718 For the most part, yes. Analog radio is still the cheapest and easiest option for lots of the heavy rail system here.
You need to find out who makes the radios for the rail system there. If they went cheap it might be DMR or perhaps P25, both of which can be received with scanners with digital functionality, if you have access to the real fancy and expensive scanners they can identify information as to the codes they use if it’s one of the above mentioned formats. Both formats can support data to some degree.
Exceptionally well explained as ever on this channel. I always thought the trackside masts were for the passengers to receive good signal lol.
Brilliant. 👍😊
Jago with a northern accent again. With Gareth Dennis levels of rail nerdity. Still love it.
In Germany, Deutsche Telekom is expanding the mobile phone network along the railway lines.
This includes the GSM-R system for the railways as well as mobile reception for passengers.
Although the services are separate, they are carried out via the same transmission towers.
The basic technique is the same.
Special transmission cables are installed in tunnels.
Ah, you might have answered my question about WiFi. I noticed on a recent trip to Germany the phone signal wasn't being lost in tunnels.
In the past, I undertook some of the design of the 3G network at the central terminal area of Heathrow Underground Station, this radiated what I was told were leaky feeder cables in the tunnels as well.
By dispatchers, does this refer to platform dispatchers or signallers? I thought mainline platform staff used SPT boxes the same as on heritage railways to communicate with signal boxes and separate radios to talk to each other (the latter not being a thing anymore on heritage railways).
Dispatcher here: nope, we only communicate to the signaller via Lineside telephone, and very occasionally depending on location, signal-post telephone.
Most dispatch grade staff in the UK wouldn't be need any GSM-R equipment in their careers. The only time this ever happens is when the space spare/redundant GSM-R radio unit need to be taken to the train because the GSM-R module in the train itself is defective. But, I've never seen or heard that happen IRL.
@@lkbergen I was grouping lineside and SPTs together, do you use separate radios to communicate to other station staff or have these been replaced by app based communication?
@@FM60260 most stations use radios, but only to to communicate with other station colleagues. It also depends on roles with each station, large stations will have a strict radio policy with channels being recorded for compliance. App based communication pretty much doesn't exist for safety critical scenarios.
5:10 Why is that? I assume it's because it's encrypted or is a digital transmission.
New trains being built today (Class 701 for example) are more than capable of swamping the bandwidth offered by GSM-R (I work for Alstom), new fleets do send some train data whilst on the move, but most is offloaded when a train calls at a station or back in depots via WiFi. The FTN/GSM-r programme took so long from technical design freeze to implementation and commissioning it was already largely outdated by full EIS, such is the life of railway projects. It is certainly better than before but what's not better is the single supply for the end user equipment (siemens). The units cost a fortune for what is in effect now, old technology; albeit SIL-0 rated (Or is it SIL-1), but there is no competition, thus the industry is fleeced... It's always fun telling people that are convinced there are only 4 mobile networks in the uk there there are actually more, GSM-r being one of them...
Thanks for the video, Ive often thought what systems were in place for the Rail Networks when seeing these. Near to my QTH is a couple of service depots and they use DMR for their operations.
Great video! Never actually looked into this railway kit before, although I know you can’t deploy U9 (3G on 900MHz) near railways as it interferes with their system.
Quite a few masts close to the trackside have 2G on 900, 3G on 900 and 4G on 800. Interference from 3G900 would be just as likely as interference from 2G900 given it is in the same frequency block.
And anyways, in the coming months/years 3G is being shut down in the UK in favor of 4G and 5G.
@@TheSpotify95 Yes, you can have G9 live but not U9 (only applies to O2/VF, EE /3UK are U21 only). If the site is near a railway line the operators need to submit a tech pack to NWR for approval.
In my area, the railway is currently transitioning from analog FM communication at 150MHz to GSM-R.
Yes! Yes! Yes! More rail content!! I would love to know how the EU pulls off ATC signalling which is lightly utilized in the USA. We desperately need to bring our rail systems into the 21st century.
ERTMS uses 3 different levels. Level 1 is drsigned to be used with existing signalling and uses fixed track beacons to transmit signal state, speed limits, and distance to the next red signal or lower speed limit to trains. Level 2 uses a mix of beacons and radio to give a speed limit and a distance to go to a fixed location (a trackside marker board), with location though both the beacons and GPS. Level 3 us similar to level 2 but uses moving blocks and far less beacons.
Older systems that it's intended to replace use a variety of methods, but typically involve either beacons, a track based system, or a wire based system, or a mix (often beacons are used to give a precise location and for large amounts of data, whilst wire loops or track based transmission provide continuous data on signal state, so a train doesn't have to wait until passing a beacon to accelerate if the signal ahead clears).
160,000 miles of rail would be a very big expensive project
Have a read on the French based system TVM430, it knocks our ETCS crap out the park by a mile!
1 thing i do know is... the encryption isnt very tight. I have a basic plugin for SDR and it works perfectly. Nearest station to me is around 6 miles. I can get data messages and Voice
Mind sharing a link?
No need, tune in using plugns. quick google search will get yu there man
@@JCarey1988
Thanks for an interesting video.
ERTMS is in use on the Cambrian Line, and is being rolled out on the East Coat Main Line.
And already in operation on the Thameslink core
@@sambaskerville2870: + Heathrow's infrastructure too!
6:28 A Sentinel !!! We still use those in Portugal for shunting in the workshops.
Here in the U.S. I listen to trains all the time! They operate on VHF from approximately 160.00-162.000.
I was about to suggest doing a bit on railway comms in light of the abandoned rail line video 🤣
Yes. You can listen to the railroads on hand held / desk radio scanners in the United States and Canada. This is how the railfans know when trains are coming. Also hotbox / hot bearing / dragging equipment detectors broadcast to the train crews to alert them if there are problems with the trains.
But remember this is for UK based trains not for USA thats different. So no you cant listen to UK trains on a radio or scanner
I know. I am an railfan who lives in Illinois and even the railfan park in Rochelle Illinois that everyone comes to from around the world has an scanner in an locked metal box with an speaker in the train watching platform picks up both the BNSF and Union Pacific since both cross in Rochelle Illinois. I also know that railfanning is different in each country. I even know an friend who goes into Mexico from the United States to railfan with railfans who live in Mexico.
@@INCDZONE
In Canada: YES.
Also the US, and probably Mexico. I think all of North America's railroads use similar systems, kind of like the highway rules for automobiles.
Indeed it's one of the few non digital systems left.
I was recently in Scotland and they use RETB signalling in the Highlands. I would love to listen to them. I believe they are the 200 MHz area. Unfortunately, I don't have a radio that there was that far up on VHF. A video on this would be good.
Still active transmissions on the 201mhz area as you say but it’s been a while since I’ve monitored around they frequencies.
When I was it was quite active.
I can remember back in the 90s listening to a train driver and a signaller on a scanner, that would have been the old analogue system
There were two systems back then. A modified MPT-1327 trunked Band III NRN system and a UHF CAB-S system.
@@TonyLing Would have been UHF
@@merlinonline67 Those were great days
The UHF system used to come from trackside locations, you would see lattice masts with a pair of Yagi's pointing up and down the track.
The national NRN system came from wide area hilltop sites.
Awesome video…
I have a stornophone cab radio and handset…. I think there is a way it can be reprogrammed to work on the 2m ham band… but haven’t got round it it yet!
Great video. I didn’t even know they had their own comms. Well researched.
In Canada I enjoy listening to CN, but I don't live near a mainline instead I live near a branch line. Sometimes it get's boring waiting for a train to come. I just use a UV-5R in VHF mode.
Great video, Lewis. I had no idea how train drivers communicated! 73
Thanks Clint!
Can i ask what the railway microwave dishs are for, ive seen the along the themes link line especially near luton train station, is it part of this or something else?
Usually point to point digital transmission links where there are no cabling (fibre optic) or a diverse link to that provided over cable is required in case the cable gets cut
Oooooh, some of the things in those photographs look very familiar, we hope you enjoyed your visit? :) -Dan
I did!
In the U.S., 902-928MHz is used for ISM, with amateurs having secondary status (the 33cm band).
Isn't 2G particularly vulnerable to Stingray attacks, or is that not a thing in the UK?
This is a serious challenge and potential risk. That is why, despite GSM-R is not widely adopted yet - there are attempts to switch over to LTE-R. In conceptual studies there are already 5G based solutions (FRMCS) and most of GSM-R infrastructure will be required to be ready to implement it
GSM-R frequency is forever going to be clear in Iceland. However, there's an asterisk to this. This frequency of R-GSM is possibly being used in point to point transmissions of up and downlinks of various types (data, television, radio and so on). That is what is often done in Iceland for frequencies that are in used on the mainland for things like railways and other mobile phone uses. The reason is few people, lots of empty space and no to little infrastructure in large parts of Iceland.
I live in Paris and my hobby is to spot the antennas used by the rail urban and suburban network. For the suburban rail network the antennas seem to be for GSM-R. For the underground Paris metro I have not seen any antennas, so I guess they have their own non-wireless system.
Brilliant as always Lewis
Thanks Tony
You do a lot of research, and present it well
@@RingwayManchester
Something ive found is that some trainspotters make their own so called "induction recorders" to pick up the magnetic field emitted from the trains traction motors. Most of this content is compiled in the #モハラジオ hashtag.
It’s cute how the rooftop aerial looks just like the “sharkfin” ones you get on cars. No need for anything else I suppose, especially when the masts are all trackside.
The thing with train reception is that there are various tunnels on the rail network, as well as areas with electric overhead wires.
Having a conventional aerial will not work as it will just snap off when going through a tunnel, or will hit a pylon.
In addition, mobile frequencies for GSM (900MHz or 1800MHz) are much higher than those of traditional AM/FM/DAB broadcasts for national/commercial radio, hence why the former can easily be picked up on a small shark-fin aerial (especially when the masts are all trackside and directed at the track), whereas the latter really needs an external aerial cut to the right frequency to work properly.
Shark fin and built-in-the-glass aerials do not work well on AM/FM/DAB as they are not designed to be picking up those frequencies. And yes, I know from experience, I've done a test on an external aerial (no amplifier) vs a built in aerial (with amplifier). The external aerial won every time...
@@TheSpotify95 sure, those enclosures in cars also include the cellular and GPS antennas which I was thinking of :)
The tunnels were explained in the video! I’m surprised directional antennae on masts was enough but hey ho there you go.
I'm surprised it took the car guys so long to adopt them. They have been on aircraft since at least the 1950's
@@kaitlyn__L For short tunnels firing signals into the tunnel acts like a waveguide
@@barrieshepherd7694 that makes sense. I was wondering about diffraction but I sometimes forget just how damn big radio waves are compared to light! Like I know a bunch of the figures, but, intuitively yk. Even a wifi signal is about as wide as a coin… hence why meshes with giant 1cm holes can still reflect them. So smaller tunnels being a fairly nice waveguide.. yeah. Totally makes sense.
I always thought onboard WIFI used GSMR, but i have my doubts if it's 2G. The thing is I've noticed that the WIFI doesn't tend to cut out in tunnels like you'd expect if using satellites (GSMR is set up to work in tunnels either with directional antennas or leaky feeders). Either that or is it hybrid and uses both (satellites when available but GSMR when not). My last train trip was on a German ICE and i was making a call (using wifi calling) and it didn't cut out despite going though quite a long tunnel.
Most on train Wi-Fi actually uses a mix of mobile operators, usually either 3G or 4G networks. The wi-fi systems pick up a signal from the mobile operators (through SIM cards etc), then convert this to a Wi-Fi signal that is fed throughout the train.
Only thing is, this is often slower than just using your own mobile hotspot (assuming the train doesn't have RF-blocking characteristics, which some trains do).
Indeed! They usually use an on-board Linux router, with multiple modems on different carriers. That router creates a VPN tunnel transiting the cell providers network and terminating on a managed VPN server before reaching the public internet. Passenger WiFi is just some of the traffic that uses that link, it's often used for passenger information systems, CCTV, condition monitoring and train telemetry too.
Wifi system completely separate to gsm-r
My local, stations use pmr 446 but as we get to London or cambridge then proper allocation freqs
The Toronto Transit System in Canada uses Class 1 Clear Tetra by Powertrunk with Sepura Radios.
The curse of the red button! Even recessed as it is, it's all too easy to inadvertently press the button whilst carrying out test or repair work in the Driver's cab. It's a really big deal too, if you don't pick up the handset and talk to the signaller if you do press it. If you don't tell the Signaller that it's not an emergency and they don't get any response they'll assume the worst and shut down the network and that basically means shutting down, for example, the whole of the Midlands rail area, as happened a few years back when someone on a Depot near Derby pressed the button by mistake then ignored the Signaller's call and went for a break. The Depot was fined and the individual was fired.
Whenever I've been in the Cab working I've always tripped the breakers for the GSMR unless the testing specifically requires it to be active.
The units you see in the cab are only head units, the main radio is in a large, finned, aluminium housing fixed into one of the bodyend cupboards.
Passenger Wi-Fi and train to wayside data (including the main CCTV systems download) is handled by a seperate system that utilises conventional GSM.
I thought they used Tetra. Learned something new, thanks.
A video on the Radio Electronic Token Block would be really intresting.
In the US railroads are on VHF simplex carrier squelch.
Not all. A lot of short lines use repeaters, and some base stations do have a TX tone I know this to be the case for NS and CSX in PA
I heard that the local buses use GSM-R here in Brighton too.
Thanks, that was interesting. Just wondering though can the new RETB be listened to?
Yes the new RETB is effectively an equipment replacement, with some additional system elements and some frequency changes but still Band III
An interesting snippet is that the plastic protective cover on the Red emergency button (stop all trains) had to be retrofitted after several incidents where cleaners and other depot staff accidentally pressed it. If you look at the pictures at 5:50 of the GSM-R sets, it's not present.
The flap has disappeared again as our new trains came without them.
@@eight-two Has it? I’m no longer a guard, so I’m not as familiar with cabs as I once was!
@@eight-two If they follow what we did in Sydney a deliberate ~3 second push was implemented
so how come i can listen to all the transmissions with the rr radios but when i try it with my uv5r i can barely get any reception?
I know you can listen in on railway staff but not trains.
I've heard buses on the backup channel using analogue FM instead of tetra.
You can easily listen to platform operations at most of the London Terminals, beware of background noise especially PA announcements when monitoring radio traffic!
What is the system used on London Underground used to make platform anouncements by staff from handheld devices?
It's part of the public address system. They use radio microphones where staff use the mic which sends signal by rf to control box and then transmits to speakers in station
I have stood next to them with a frequency counter and not managed to see what band they are on.
That great.not Shure what system the USA is using.But I do know some freight train traffic is still using VHF FM and I can listen to them. not much traffic on them. manly maintenance related. I can hare HT in rail yard. may also be a backup if outher system goes down. I can hear a hot barring detector. it is automatic with voice. computer generated. usually says no defects and time. love the railway videos. great information and nice look at there radio towers and how it works. 73's
The US is still 100% VHF. Most (99%) is analog with some yard operations going to NXDN in the clear, with some RRPD ops having NXDN Voice inversion enabled.
I'm romanian, and our trains just use off-the-shelf motorola radios capable of 146MHz with no encryption of any kind, transmitted from antennas on the train to the dispatcher/signaller/etc with multiple different frequencies all in the 146MHz range. I don't get the point of encrypting it and making only 1 person speak at a time. It's not like you'll get randomly rickrolled from train nerds
Pretty sure that ScotRail still use VHF up here in the Highlands. I can dig out the frequencies if you would like
VHF is still used for RETB (Radio Electronic Token Block). That's a very interesting system from a radio point of view, since it has both a voice and data component. Basically instead of the old system where drivers would be handed a physical token before entering a signal line section, RETB was developed in the 90s and uses (as the name suggests) an electronic token transmitted over radio. Trains are fitted with a receiver unit with a radio which is used for voice communication between the driver and controller (the driver will update on their location when passing certain points, and will also ask permission to pass stop boards) as well as a display showing the current movement authority from the token (the first stop board they are allowed to pass and the one they must stop at). The computer at the control room makes sure only one train can have a token for a particular section at a time, and a display shows the position of trains and what tokens are out and which are available. These days the system also integrates with the TPWS train protection system, and will only turn off the train stop beacon if a token has been sent for that particular section. As well as Scotland the same system was also used on the Cambrian Coast line in Wales, and the East Suffolk line, but the former now has ERTMS, and the latter got normal colour light signaling.
@@ChrisCooper312 Good description and explanation - as I was one of the authors of the specs and implementation engineers I can confirm all you say is correct.
The bit not often understood about the system is that it was intended to be low cost, basically so the lines could stay open, and therefore no landlines or UHF/microwave links to base stations could be afforded - the linking was achieved by reverse frequency repeaters positioned around the midpoint between base stations. As these repeater had to 'change direction' for each 'over' we had to implement a fast keying system (3825 Hz tone burst at the commencement of an over) as well as CCTSS protection (CCTSS on its own was too slow)
Another fun fact is that some base stations were powered by thermal electric generators, one site in particular requiring a propane lift by helicopter twice a year. Solar and wind solutions did not really exist back in those days - what wind generators were available would blow themselves to pieces in the gusting.
The addition of the TPWS came well after I had gone to play Cab Secure and subsequently GSM-R in Sydney and I understand that TPWS implementation cost more than the original radio system!
BTW I can still hear the 1327 data preamble in my head - one became pretty good at knowing when a token exchange had been successful !
Do you know whether the base stations are set up as sectored or omni sites, and why.... nice tecky question 😀
Sectored
@@sambaskerville2870 arh but sector antenna but can be omni kit with split antennas. One reason being the speed of train going past the site results in a rapid drop in signal, so much so that a handover fails and call drops because the nbr measurement report fails as the rf is now too low. For normal 2G this was called 'turn the corner handover' and required rapid handover feature. Not sure if gsmr is same but this was a real pita on some motorways. Similar for 3G and active set. Damn M62 😀
Good video Lewis thanks
Listen to them yeh when there not on blinkin strike every weekend!!! Have a nice weekend lewis
Kevin Bacon owns GSM R
Really interesting video
I've seen Yagi antennas at the mouth of railway tunnels, what are they used for?
To send the signal down the tunnel to maintain coverage
Yagi antenna for tunnel coverage is the preferred solution due to costs of leaky feeder install and other issues (induction on cable in overhead electrical equipment areas).
in USA, you can hear train radio just fine. most of them are regular FM, but it is very boring thing to listen to, ship radio is more fun to listen to.
GSM-R works, so why want an LTE based solution? I mean; surely the higher bandwidth is superfluous? Ahh, but what if you want to pave the way for live video monitoring when needed because there are no staff running the trains, conducters, or ultimately drivers. Live video feeds would be useful in the event of public reports of crime or disorder.
The move to cab based ETCS levels dictates more data is required. Additionally the equipment to support / extend 2G is no longer available.
In theory you could use any RF based system or even powerline data stream. That however brings challenges: you have to have catenary (or third rail) and run only electric trains (so all feeders are being cut from such system - not ideal at least). In case of custom VHF - you can either use subcarriers inside analog system (like in FM broadcast radios) or use totally digital system. Either case means development of custom protocol with all of its caveats. Then, if you just use existing wireless protocols - life becomes much easier. You can even use IP based systems without much of a hassle.
@@brylozketrzyn A powerline system was tried a long time ago in Germany. The problems relate to the significant levels of induced noise and transients caused by the trains traction equipment (200+ Amps at 25 kV causes lots of sparks at the contact wire), issues with getting the signal across the Section Gaps in the overhead contact wire and problems getting the signals past the booster transformers that control induced voltages in inside cables. Add to that the problems caused by engineering works when sections of the power system is often shut off and/or isolated and Earthed, the adoption of Power Line communications did not advance.
Licensing conditions and bandwidth does not easily allow inclusion of sub carrier data - at least not in all the bands available to railways. The SNCF developed an interesting solution of time compressing speech by about 10% and including a slow speed data channel in a standard UHF channel. While it worked the equipment was specialised and, in true French manner, designs were not available to other than french companies to use - albeit that changed for the first Channel Tunnel through trains and a UK based company emulated the equipment at half the cost French Industry was charging the SNCF. The data channel was at slow speed and apart from a few things like turning on train air con remotely and a few other similar things never received much use or expansion - GSM-R Specs. were being developed and thankfully the French adopted the UIC approach.
Some 'stand alone' Metro railways are using WiFI in unregulated spectrum for effective communications but the increasing uses of personal hotspots can present issues - it was reported that a system in Japan, (or China), would suffer signal losses eventually traced to the rush hour when loads of passengers were on the trains running hot spots. I think this prompted a move to regulated WiFi spectrum - at a cost of course.
Railway comms engineers have to be somewhat conservative in adoption of technology where Vital communications are concerned. Train movement authorities must be absolutely secure and transmission protocols robust - non-vital communications not so so it's generally horses for courses. The EMTS Level 3 system being implemented on the southern part of the ECML will use GSM-R (either circuit switched or HSDPA data) for train movement authorities but the non vital comms for passengers or train management etc. will continue to run on the public networks.
Many years ago a plan was hatched to see if public carriers could graft a railway network onto their systems - it did not get far once the public operators realised the risks, should their system fail, and they were hit with train delay costs - they did also not like the concept of call preemption, prioritising railway calls, as it meant there was a risk to their revenue streams from customers being 'cut off'. Also of note was the predictions of railway call speech traffic - revenue - were very low. I remember reporting to a Railway Board the radio traffic by calls for a particular period - the Board Members were concerned that the number of calls was very low - I just said that's what we want - "If the radio is not being used then everything is running well" - I'm afraid that logic was lost on the more finance orientated members of the Board!! In other words there is no reason for a signaller/controller/driver to communicate if everything is running on time and to plan.
Rainfan here i have all the local freqs programmed into my handheld radio (listening only)
After the 3G, and eventually, 2G systems are switched off, this will be the only 2G GSM based stuff still working. For a while.
here in the USA rail way uses 160 mhz simplex all over the country
Abellio trains loud and clear in East anglia.
Why did the blue and yellow train at 1:57 remind me of "chuggington"
I cant remember what the chuggington character’s name is, but if you look up the Class 55 ‘Deltic’, thats what its based off of
In America you can very easily
Zello for trains 👍🏻
I only understood some of this post. Nonetheless i found it oddly interesting. 👍
Some fab photos from Crewe mate 👌🏻
Thanks 👍
@@RingwayManchesterif you can reply to a comment from 25 minutes ago you can reply to my email from 2 months ago, surely?
You’d think so wouldn’t you. Rowan; I won’t be replying to any of your emails. Just get used to the idea. Your other accounts will be blocked too.
Watched Distant Signal and his videos show how he monitors them in Florida etc
One of my favourite channels mate
@@RingwayManchester Really ? I’ve watched a few of his videos
It is legal if not encrypted in Poalnd (listening to encrypted is legal but decrypting not)
I was always under the impression that GSM-R and TETRA were the same.
TETRA lost when the UIC decided on the more proven GSM for the standardisation. Some railways use TETRA around the world as it has better data capability and is less fixed network intensive.
I think that Tetra and GSM-R share quite a bit of the basic telecommunications concepts on a signalling level - I did look at the Tetra standards a couple of decades ago, and saw that similar concepts and messaging were used - which isn't surprising as they were both specified by similar groups of people around similar times. Tetra is much more of a "many-to-many" system, where as GSM-R is based on the "one-to-one" concept of a traditional phone network with some "one-to-many" capabilities bolted on. Tetra is much more spectrum efficient, but because of this supports lower data rates than GSM with GRPS & EDGE. I think traditionally Tetra was considered a lower cost system, but I imaging that GSM-R has benefited from the huge installed base of GSM around the world, where as Tetra is pretty much a very niche market now.
Not in London… DMR is what we use.
you could hear data bursts then voice but not very often
point to point Microwave system