@@bwtv147 How about George Burns... Frank Goshin portrayed Burns in a forgotten 2005 film titled Angels With Angles. It was also his last film role before he passed and ditto for Rodney Dangerfield.
Gorshin was the one that could have been done seriously. He had some weight to it where he could be chilling. You could really see his version killing someone.
@@kevinmoore4887 that is what I mean. They all were comical but if it was done seriously his portrayal still worked. I loved how he would laugh and then just go dead serious.
Frank Gorshin is my favorite Riddler. He redefined how the Riddler should act. As a little kid when I watched the Batman TV show, he was the one (and False Face) who actually put me on edge. He had that certain look on his face when he had those intense moments in his acting. He was daffy & silly, then he'd go deadly serious in the blink of an eye. They all played the Hell outta their character, but Frank Gorshin WAS the Riddler.
yea, these actors, producers, directors, writers, and crews should not worry about their families and own futures, they should just entertain us no matter what
I really think that the truth is somewhere in the middle of both stories. John Astin did a great job with the character. Probably nobody else at the time could have pulled off the character in Frank Gorshin's place. They both played the character very over the top but each one had their own take on it.
Maybe the answer is a combination of the two stories: Gorshin had a nightclub deal that was paying him 5k, and to cancel it he wanted the Batman producers to match that amount.
I think that you might be right. The average villain was getting 1k per episode, I would have thought about paying it if he could prove the night club contract, he was irreplaceable i.m.o.! Batman was a smash hit in the first season, they should have had some money to play with! I believe that Adam west was getting about $ 5k per episode!
@@mikeseppy7163 West was the lead though so would understandably get a lot more. I expect that if they had paid Gorshin the same then the other actors like Cesar Romero and Burgess Meredith would also have been looking for a payrise.
I had heard the salary demand story before, so it was probably valid. I also remember Frank Gorshin appearing on Star Trek for one episode at around the same time which caused confusion for my then 7 year old mind. No one can top Gorshin as the Riddler, especially not Jim Carey.
It was the salary demand from that agency (William Morris) Same thing almost happened with Leonard Nimoy in the leadin to S2 of Star Trek. NBC agreed to keep it on after S1 but they said NO INCREASE IN BUDGET...NO RAISES...AT ALL. Nimoy's agent demanded a raise or he'd walk. Justman and Coon said no...and they started screen testing Mark Lenard and the actor that later played Staan as Spock replacements to scare Nimoy into backing down. The agency then contacted NBC directly and finked that Norway Corp (ST staff) were trying to replace Spock. NBC said to Roddenberry's team...are you crazy...without Spock you have nothing. Nimoy got a raise...then everyone got a raise...then Shatner insisted on a raise....and that's why there is almost no new space VFX in S2. Budget was fixed.
@@mattyrock2467 How about George Burns? Frank Goshin would portray George Burns in a 2005 film titled Angels With Angles and ironically the film has never gotten a DVD release. Gorshin died the same year the film was released. ❓🤔🧐📽
Frank Gorshin appeared on Star Trek in Season Three, a year after Batman ended. Just like Yvonne Craig. Julie Newmar appeared in an episode of Season Two which during Season Three of Batman, which is when she left the series and they had to replace the character Catwoman.
Gorshin is THE Riddler. It's funny, Frank Gorshin was in a Disney movie called That Darn Cat back in the 60's. It's one of my favorites. I can't watch him in it though without imagining him as the Riddler. Thanks for this, Rick!
Gorshin's impersonation of Burt Lancaster on the Dean Martin Celebrity Roast kills. He about had Martin and Don Rickle's falling out of their seats from laughing so hard. Brilliant entertainer.
Frank Gorshin's Riddler was an impression of Richard Widmark as gangster Tommy Udo in 1947's Kiss of Death, a character known for his high-pitched laugh. Gorshin, known for his impression of dramatic actors, did Widmark's Tommy Udo in his nightclub act.
Truth be told though. Maurice was just good at everything. I love his acting mostly because you can tell he comes from a Shakespearean background. I could listen to him talk forever.
From my understanding, The Puzzler is a former rogue of Superman from the comic books. I mean really? They couldn't even use Arthur Brown or the Cluemaster, a criminal mastermind enemy of Batman for that show since he made his First Appearance in Detective Comics #351 (May 1966)
Frank Gorshin will ALWAYS be the one and ONLY Riddler on the Batman live action TV series, I saw the two part episode with John Astin as the Riddler, but it just wasn't the same not seeing Frank wearing the Riddler costume though, looked odd seeing John wearing the Riddler costume
One of my stupid asshole teachers claimed never to have heard of Astin, whilst discussing "Batman" with me. Was going to call him that to his face, but begged off..
Howlin' Hobbit Yes indeed!,.....I was like, wait-a-minute!....yea, definitely Ms. Newmar deservess her iconic status for being catwoman,........ohhhh, but Ms. Kitt without a DOUBT! most DEFINITELY brought a unique exotic deminsion to the character of catwoman!
Which is why actors do not want to be typecast as well. Your impression of John Astin reminded you of Gomez in the costume...that is a good point. Astin was trying to avoid that all his career, and trying to shake off the "Gomez" label. He wasn't against Gomez as such, it did his career the world of good, but it is when actors want to diversify later, the public often cannot release their thought process from the characters they are familiar with. Fred Gwynne as Herman Munster was a similar situation. He could not shake off the Munsters character with the public in the future. Sorted it out eventually, but he was never appreciated for the diverse characters he could play.
I believe it might of been a little bit of Both: I think the nightclub deal was legit but he could of had a way out but knew he would probably be taking a risk with it so he basically wanted them to give him some compensation because either he’s going to lose a big pay day or he wanted this risk to have some guarantee brightside
As a kid when I saw the advertisement for the following week and they showed john Astin as the Riddler I was devastated , Frank gorshin was the Riddler , he was one of the reasons I watch the show those characters were great
They should had dressed John Astin in the tailored Riddler suit and derby to make it work, because I think that he looks understandably uncomfortable and embarrassed running around in those tights. A classy guy like Gomez Addams would never dress like that.
Actually, I am pretty sure Batman aired twice a week which is why the announcer would say, "Tune in Tomorrow. Same Bat Time, same Bat Channel." So kids didn't have to wait until next week for the continuation.
Actually, it was money. What most people don't know is that the Puzzler episodes were originally supposed to have Riddler as the villain. When Gorshin couldn't come to terms on pay, the story was rewritten and Maurice Evans cast as the Puzzler. Astin wasn't bad, but he wasn't the Riddler. Frank Gorshin had the physical comedy that made his Riddler unique.
Gorshin was the best, the subtle changes in voice when speaking, up and down tones really made the character crazy as he was supposed to be. I think it was money, but there's nothing wrong with getting that. I have a question. Who did they audition for Catwoman after Julie Newmar couldn't do it. Was Eartha Kitt always the first choice or were others. Same goes for Batgirl. Do you have any info on that. Great channel, Keep it up. Cheers, Steve
Astin is a great comedian... he was awesome... and of course, we were already into our original Joker mode... it gives you a lot of questions when you are young... Astin did a fine job.
Somehow I missed the episodes with John Astin as the Riddler. I just remember Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. I like him best as the Riddler. No offense to John Astin.
I was about 8 years old watching the actual episodes back in the 60s, and i can still remember watching the 2 episodes with Astin as the Riddler. I remenber because i was extremely confused and angry that they replaced my favorite villain"s actor with Gomez Adams. My mom even asked why i was yelling at the TV! Lol
you're not alone. i remembered seeing it only after watching this video. Cake of quicksand was ridiculous, even for Batman. Shame the writers just couldn't have invented a new villain instead of re-fitting the costume. Could've been a breakout role for Astin if they had.
In many, many interviews with film and television actors, many will state that, "my agent negotiated a better pay rate than I expected from that part." Which means that Mr. Gorshin might not have known about the agent's request for a pay raise. I remember those times, and especially Mr. Gorshin, as he was a Pittsburgh native. Being from that area, we always looked for "local" talent when watching television or movies.
During that time frame, Gorshin was primarily a stand-up impressionist. Those were at their peak then. Such performers as Rich Little, Frank, Rob Schneider, and others were in high demand. The premise of the Batman series was guest spots for high paid performers to add to the kitch of the pop culture. Many of us tuned in to see which artist would make a surprise appearance that week. Batman gave Gorshin the opportunity to show his acting chops and branch out into other roles. Given that he had just appeared in Star Trek, his demands for more money were entirely justified. Batman was making money hand over fist because of the style, and Gorshin was a prized player. Astin was not the only "replacement" actor in the series, as you know. Julie Neumar was forever Catwoman in the same fashion. Lee Merriweather was an adequate replacement, but the character was never the same. Even Eartha Kitt as Catwoman was a success, so the producers thought they could simply replace Gorshin as they had Neumar. To their surprise, it went over like a lead balloon. Gorshin forever cemented his place in that show after that, giving Romero and Meredith their bargaining chips.
I remember when "Gomez Addams" showed up as The Riddler and it totally blew up my 7-year-old world view! All I could think there was a horrible mistake or Frank Gorshin was killed or gravely ill. I like John Astin (BTW, he's still with us at 90-plus years old, and teaching acting classes at his alma mater) and love his Gomez but he was out of his lane with Riddler. He didn't even get rid of the moustache for the role! Gorshin was THE Riddler as Astin was Gomez Addams. It would be like if Burgess Meredith was replaced by George Burns to play Penguin. As to what happened with Frank Gorshin and the show, I think it was a classic game of chicken: Gorshin wanted more money (justifiable in my view), the production company balked at the demand so they tried the role with someone else. Both parties lose in a big way and realize it, they agree to talk, and eventually hash out a compromise deal. A latter-day version of this happened with "The Dukes Of Hazzard" when the two leading actors held out for more salary when the show was at its peak. That show's producers tried to go on without the two actors, hired look-alike replacements, and claimed the true star of the show is the car, The General Lee. It went one for a few episodes like this, the plots were now perceived as too contrived by viewers, the two parties went back to the table and hashed out a deal - and then wrote a hackneyed storyline bringing the two original stars back and sending the replacements on their way.
I forget who it was but the other henchman was also a Dodger too. Also they played natives in an episode of Gilligans Island. PS do you remember Gilligan on Batman? It was a gag because it was Alsn Hale playing a character named Gilligan
John Astin also starred as the captain of the tv series based on the movie Operation Petticoat called " in the Pink " . he gave a great interpretation of the Carey Grant role . A young Jamie Lee Curtis portrayed one of the rescued nurses . Thanks for posting this story . I never knew about him filling in as the Riddler .
Frank is always the riddler. I too like his mannerisms, laughter, just energy is amazing. Jon's interpretation was his own and pretty good like if Batman and Robin come he would had already set the trap for both of them when got there. He had what would the iconic question mark cane only for jon's performance and wouldn't seen again until Batman The Animated Series, The New Batman Animated Series, and Batman Forever.
One small correction. For the first two years, the Batman episodes were in two parts. They first part wasn't continued the next week, it was continued the next day (the episodes were two per week for the first two years.)
Its true. Batman had two new episodes on Wednesdays and Thursdays. I was a kid in the 60s. I was pissed off because I missed Batman on Wednesday because I was watching Lost In Space.
Hey, thanks for posting. I'm with ya on Gorshin's domination of the role- my personal favorite villain. Whadda trip he was. I dont know what to make of the brief substitution, but was glad for the reprisal. (that said, I also enjoyed the Gomez cameo ).
Frank Gorshin as the Riddler was the best Batman villain ever. I loved him SO much, to this day The Riddler is my favorite Batman character only because of him.
Wow. I thought I'd seen every episode, but damned if I can remember Gomez playing The Riddler. Bonkers! I need to hunt down and watch these 1 episodes now. Nice job, Rick! Love your work here!
Irreplaceable is right! He's THE Riddler. Gorshin was an amazing talent. His impression routines were also 2nd to none. Guys have come along over the years who are really good with the voices but no one will ever match Gorshins presentation and the humor he mixed in with the routines. I would be impressed if someone could be half as good as Frank as the Riddler.
Met Frank 5 times in the 70s and several times later in the 2000s. ..When I first met him in 76 I asked about being replaced, he said he had a Vegas Commitment and the producers didn't want to delay production of this episode...He had no ill feelings about it..He asked me whom I thought was a better Riddler, him or John ? No contest I told him, but John was the definitive Gomez Addams ! Frank was a great guy...just that damn smoking !
I met Frank Gorshon at a SupermegaFest Show in My Hometown and he told me that he was on Vacation John Astin did a great job filling in for Frank and even if he doesn't look like him.
I was hooked on Batman when I was a kid, and the standout is Frank... I didn't even remember Aston being on Batman until memory jog. I also think the Jim Carey performance in whatever batman movie he was in owed more to Gorshin. Funny how they've never had the Riddler in other movies, as I think he's my favorite villain after Joker and Catwoman.
Okay since you're talkin about The Addams Family, Carolyn Jones who played Morticia, was also on the Batman series as the villainess Marsha Queen of Diamonds. Lurch also made an appearance via the window scene. So there is a total of three actors that did crossovers from Addams Family to Batman
I want to make a correction. "Batman" did use cliffhangers, but they were not separated by a week. Instead, the first part aired (on ABC) on Wednesday, then the other part aired the next day on Thursday. I was a kid in the 60s; I watched that show EVERY WEEK!
There was another episode during the second season that was actually a script meant for the Riddler that was then changed to the Puzzler, played by Maurice Evans, during Christmas week in 1966...
Gorshin had a flair for the dramatic as well, as he was in the "Star Trek" episode, " Let This Be Your Final Battlefield", which I see as an alligory about the folly of prejudice. Fun Fact: Exec. Producer William Dozier was the narrator on "Batman".
Sounds like a little bit of everything, schedule, salary... it was nice he came back to reprise the role. It was what I think of as is most notable roll.
Salary disputes have often caused the disruption of character appearances in TV series. As an example, Don DeFore and Whitney Blake of "Hazel" were dropped from the 5th and final season due to salary disputes. The first 4 seasons were on NBC, but was switched to CBS for the 5th season and CBS didn't want to pay. The dropping of DeFore and Blake greatly disrupted the immense chemistry that existed in the 4 previous seasons between all the actors and the show (in my opinion) was never the same. Shirley Booth elected to end the series at the conclusion of the 5th season. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that a salary dispute had something to do with Gorshin's absence on Batman.
I have no doubt the truth is in the middle and Gorshin was the Riddler, Astin was a pale substitute. The way Gorshin played the part was perfect Astin tried but never captured the same evil zaniness. It is like with Catwoman, Newmar played it purrfectly and both Kitt and Meriwether were pale substitutes.
Fun fact: in the game Diablo II, Lysander (the potions seller in Lut Gholein) and Marius are voiced by Frank Gorshin. The game was first released 5 years before Gorshin's death.
Yes. He plays the character Bele who is half black and half white. Frank is amazing in this role. You have to check this episode of Star Trek out. He will always be the Riddler. He owned the role. He was on quite a few TV shows. Believe it or not, he was also on Charlie's Angels too! One of my favourite actors.
He's one of at least 10 actors who appeared on both Trek and Batman. H was nominated for an Emmy for his portrayal of Riddler but didn't win. Did not win an Emmy for ST I dont think he was even nominated
I actually felt, and I do remember when Austin stepped in, that F.Gorshin was a FAR better “riddler” than Austin. Frank Gorshin, who was a brilliant impressionist besides, had the creepy & inane laugh and he was simply the best and eeriest! !
Astin was a good substitute. And since people liked him on the Addams Family, it was a smart choice. Of course Gorshin, was the best actor at that time to play him. They always found good actors to play the villains, which was strange considering how crazy that show got at times.
It’s impossible to speculate about the specifics. But if I had to guess, Dosier’s version is probably much closer to the truth. Producers will always try to stay within budget.
Considering that we had Lurch appear on this show during one of the window scenes, I think this Riddler is just Gomez Addams pulling an elaborate prank on Batman.
I gotta go with Frank Gorshin, his story does make sense. What's interesting was the episode with the Puzzler was supposed to be a Riddler episode also, guess Gorshin was unavailable for that episode as well. Glad he came back for season 3. As for John Astin, I think he did good, he did try his best.
correction: When originally aired, Batman episodes, written as two-parters, that aired, NOT over two weeks, but rather one night after the other; Wednesday and Thursday at 8 pm Eastern. Perhaps by the time you saw them they were in weekly syndication but the original broadcasts were two consecutive nights.
William Morris Agency was the “villain” here. Once Frank signed with them he had to let the Agency talk to Dozier and not to respond to any queries from the fans or Dozier’s people. In the meantime Austin was available and understood this was a one-time appearance so like a good thespian he gave 110% to the role. Remember at this time in history actors only received royalties for a brief couple of years and the only way actors could hope for a pay raise was to negotiate through an agency.
William Morris Agency was a force to be reckoned with in any area of talent from modeling, stage, screen and music. I would imagine the studios rather took their orders from them not the other way around. Just my opinion, though. I wasn't even born yet so I wouldn't really know. I truly loved these reruns as a kid, though. I would rush home off the school bus so as not to miss even one minute.
I actually remember this: I remember being disappointed that Frank Gorshin was replaced! To me Gorshin WAS The Riddler! His laugh his giggle and his wiry moves were priceless!!! John Astin was a poor imitation!
Goonies never say die but i just can't see Rudy as the Riddler, Sean's father did a get by job of it but no where near better than Gorshin's.. Carrot Top could probably do a better job of it, Sean Astin has grown into the business and has talent but idk? I could be wrong I guess we shall see??
There were actually two times during the second season that Gorshin was replaced. "The Puzzles Are Coming/The Duo Is Slumming" (Dec. 21-22, 1966) were originally written as Riddler episodes. When Gorshin was unavailable, Maurice Evans was brought in, the villain was changed to The Puzzler and the scripts were re-written, adding a number of Shakespeare elements to accommodate Evans, who was a famous Shakespearean actor.
I suspect they're both recollecting part of it. More than likely the agency offered a way to buy him out of his booking. This could be interpreting his fee plus the buyout as asking for more money.
Frank Gorshin was an underated actor. Played the best riddler I believe. Listen how he speaks, moves, and acts. Definitely comes from that dramatic broadway style. Macbeth, Camelot, that poetic style of acting. And that crazy laugh as the riddler. I don't think anyone could beat it. He should have been a very well known actor.
I had read a story somewhere (take it for what it's worth) that Adam West and Gorshin had gone to a party somewhere, got ripping drunk, and decided to have a contest to see who could sleep with the most ladies (both of them were noted lotharios), and some of the girls were not of age. This was part of what got him axed from the show.. ..Again, it's internet stuff..take it with a grain of salt.
I remember reading about why Frank Gorshin did not return for Season 2 of Batman. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: List of Batman (TV series) episodes: 'Despite being the most prominent villain during Season 1, Frank Gorshin was completely absent as The Riddler during Season 2, as Gorshin was holding out for a salary increase for continuing on in the role, which the studio refused to comply with. As a result, a storyline in Season 2 that was originally intended for the Riddler was instead given to a character called The Puzzler, while another storyline later on in Season 2 saw John Astin replace Gorshin in the role of the Riddler." I had also read that after Season 1 and the feature film, Frank Gorshin became so popular because of the role that he was the only actor from the series that was nominated for an Emmy. So, possibly, it went to his head a bit and that's why he held out for more money.
Gorshin probably did have a prior commitment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the agent took that tense moment as an opportunity to press for a raise for Gorshin, and thus for themself too. He should have gotten that producer to put his words in writing and then sold Riddler merchandise.
I loved loved LOVED Gorshin's Riddler. As far as I'm concerned, the series could have had him on every blessed episode! Astin was different, but serviceable in this role. I always found it a pity that they could not have teamed up this Riddler with Carolyn Jones' Marsha Queen of Diamonds character, to have Gomez & Morticia reunited! My favorite part of the Astin episodes is when he freaks out on his minions when he yells..."How...can...you LAMEBRAINS PLAY CARDS at a time like THIS!!!" And also when he exclaims "Am I not the KING?!??!...KING KING KING!"
My favorite batman villain was the Riddler! Frank Gorshin was my favorite Riddler! No one could replicate that laugh or be as entertaining as he was. I was very disappointed when John Astin replaced him. The very first Batman episode was entitled "Hi Diddle Riddle" and the second was "Smack Down The Middle." Both featured Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. Frank Gorshin also recorded a song called "The Riddler". I't a great song filled with riddles and his incredible laugh! John
I can understand that they had to find another actor for The Riddler in tis two-part episode. With all due respect to John Astin whom I absolutely love as Gomez Addams, he somehow wasn't right for the part of The Riddler, that was Frank Gorshin's part.
Frank was busy with other things. He also was concerned about being typecast as the Riddler which happened anyway. But Frank was busy doing shows in Las Vegas. It was only affter the very poor performance by John Astin as Gomez Riddler, the producers managed to get Frank back for two episodes in the third year.
According to Adam west in his book back to the batcave he also stated the contract dispute leading to John Ashton being brought in for the episodes Batman’s anniversary and A Riddling Controversy but it got settled for this characters finale appearance in season 3 episode Ring Around the Riddler a one episode plot
Frank Goshin is perhaps the best at playing the part of Riddler. No other actor can capture the essence of the character like Frank Goshin
agreed. by far.
Twice. You skipped the “r” twice. F-.
Jim Carrey.
@@bwtv147 How about George Burns... Frank Goshin portrayed Burns in a forgotten 2005 film titled Angels With Angles. It was also his last film role before he passed and ditto for Rodney Dangerfield.
Gorshin owned the part. His portrayal still has echoes in every non-comics version. Every time I see the Astin episodes, I think Gomez.
Exactly. Gershin made the Riddler. Its like, "oh Gomez Adams has a summer job."
Astin was so good on the Adam's Family.
Gorshin was the one that could have been done seriously. He had some weight to it where he could be chilling. You could really see his version killing someone.
he sure looked better in the costume.
@@robertcarson141 The villains were all supposed to be a bit comical, cartoonish. Gershin brought a more sociopath edge to the character. He was good.
@@kevinmoore4887 that is what I mean. They all were comical but if it was done seriously his portrayal still worked. I loved how he would laugh and then just go dead serious.
Frank Gorshin had the physicality, the flailing limbs, the twitches, the hyperactivity, and the best evil laugh ever.
..BETTER than the Joker’s….or any Joker so far
And he looked like he was better shape than Adam West. Good thing for Adam they didn't fight for real.
Frank Gorshin is my favorite Riddler. He redefined how the Riddler should act.
As a little kid when I watched the Batman TV show, he was the one (and False Face) who actually put me on edge.
He had that certain look on his face when he had those intense moments in his acting.
He was daffy & silly, then he'd go deadly serious in the blink of an eye.
They all played the Hell outta their character, but Frank Gorshin WAS the Riddler.
No one can replace him
Awesomely maniacal laugh!
No one likes to admit it, but in Hollywood, it's ALWAYS about the money.
yea, these actors, producers, directors, writers, and crews should not worry about their families and own futures, they should just entertain us no matter what
"This was due to Frank Gorshin asking for a pay rise for the second season."
I really think that the truth is somewhere in the middle of both stories. John Astin did a great job with the character. Probably nobody else at the time could have pulled off the character in Frank Gorshin's place. They both played the character very over the top but each one had their own take on it.
@@babayaga1767 lol 😆 most people missed your sarcasm but well put
Are you saying show business is a business?
Maybe the answer is a combination of the two stories: Gorshin had a nightclub deal that was paying him 5k, and to cancel it he wanted the Batman producers to match that amount.
Sounds reasonable to me. Kind of a "Work around my other gig or pay me the same as it."
That is the most plausible
I think that you might be right. The average villain was getting 1k per episode, I would have thought about paying it if he could prove the night club contract, he was irreplaceable i.m.o.! Batman was a smash hit in the first season, they should have had some money to play with! I believe that Adam west was getting about $ 5k per episode!
@@mikeseppy7163 West was the lead though so would understandably get a lot more. I expect that if they had paid Gorshin the same then the other actors like Cesar Romero and Burgess Meredith would also have been looking for a payrise.
5K is a lot in 60's dollars for a "nightclub" gig.
There is yet to be a live-action Riddler that can nearly match Gorshin’s creation. Even the incredible Jim Carrey fell way short.
I had heard the salary demand story before, so it was probably valid. I also remember Frank Gorshin appearing on Star Trek for one episode at around the same time which caused confusion for my then 7 year old mind. No one can top Gorshin as the Riddler, especially not Jim Carey.
It was the salary demand from that agency (William Morris)
Same thing almost happened with Leonard Nimoy in the leadin to S2 of Star Trek.
NBC agreed to keep it on after S1 but they said NO INCREASE IN BUDGET...NO RAISES...AT ALL.
Nimoy's agent demanded a raise or he'd walk. Justman and Coon said no...and they started screen testing Mark Lenard and the actor that later played Staan as Spock replacements to scare Nimoy into backing down.
The agency then contacted NBC directly and finked that Norway Corp (ST staff) were trying to replace Spock.
NBC said to Roddenberry's team...are you crazy...without Spock you have nothing.
Nimoy got a raise...then everyone got a raise...then Shatner insisted on a raise....and that's why there is almost no new space VFX in S2. Budget was fixed.
@@STho205 Very interesting story, thanks for sharing.
agreed. no one was even close to frank gorshin as the riddler.
@@mattyrock2467 How about George Burns? Frank Goshin would portray George Burns in a 2005 film titled Angels With Angles and ironically the film has never gotten a DVD release. Gorshin died the same year the film was released. ❓🤔🧐📽
Frank Gorshin appeared on Star Trek in Season Three, a year after Batman ended. Just like Yvonne Craig. Julie Newmar appeared in an episode of Season Two which during Season Three of Batman, which is when she left the series and they had to replace the character Catwoman.
Gorshin is THE Riddler. It's funny, Frank Gorshin was in a Disney movie called That Darn Cat back in the 60's. It's one of my favorites. I can't watch him in it though without imagining him as the Riddler. Thanks for this, Rick!
Gorshin's impersonation of Burt Lancaster on the Dean Martin Celebrity Roast kills. He about had Martin and Don Rickle's falling out of their seats from laughing so hard. Brilliant entertainer.
Frank Gorshin's Riddler was an impression of Richard Widmark as gangster Tommy Udo in 1947's Kiss of Death, a character known for his high-pitched laugh. Gorshin, known for his impression of dramatic actors, did Widmark's Tommy Udo in his nightclub act.
he was one of the best impressionists ever. Far better than Little.
They also came up with “The Puzzler” played by Maurice Evans who is very very similar to The Riddler to fill in for Gorshin’s absence.
Truth be told though. Maurice was just good at everything. I love his acting mostly because you can tell he comes from a Shakespearean background. I could listen to him talk forever.
mikeface1 The Shakespeare-Spouting Riddler Rip-off was Superman’s adversary in the 1950’s. He was not created for the series.
Dr. Zaius. End of story
From my understanding, The Puzzler is a former rogue of Superman from the comic books. I mean really? They couldn't even use Arthur Brown or the Cluemaster, a criminal mastermind enemy of Batman for that show since he made his First Appearance in Detective Comics #351 (May 1966)
The Puzzler is a real character. Not a fill in.
Frank Gorshin will ALWAYS be the one and ONLY Riddler on the Batman live action TV series, I saw the two part episode with John Astin as the Riddler, but it just wasn't the same not seeing Frank wearing the Riddler costume though, looked odd seeing John wearing the Riddler costume
One of my stupid asshole teachers claimed never to have heard of Astin, whilst discussing "Batman" with me. Was going to call him that to his face, but begged off..
@Simon Leib -- while I do agree with you about Ms. Newmar, Eartha Kitt was no slouch.
Howlin' Hobbit Yes indeed!,.....I was like, wait-a-minute!....yea, definitely Ms. Newmar deservess her iconic status for being catwoman,........ohhhh, but Ms. Kitt without a DOUBT! most DEFINITELY brought a unique exotic deminsion to the character of catwoman!
Which is why actors do not want to be typecast as well. Your impression of John Astin reminded you of Gomez in the costume...that is a good point. Astin was trying to avoid that all his career, and trying to shake off the "Gomez" label. He wasn't against Gomez as such, it did his career the world of good, but it is when actors want to diversify later, the public often cannot release their thought process from the characters they are familiar with. Fred Gwynne as Herman Munster was a similar situation. He could not shake off the Munsters character with the public in the future. Sorted it out eventually, but he was never appreciated for the diverse characters he could play.
Frank Gorshin was defining as the ‘Riddler’. Astin did a decent job, tho.
I believe it might of been a little bit of Both: I think the nightclub deal was legit but he could of had a way out but knew he would probably be taking a risk with it so he basically wanted them to give him some compensation because either he’s going to lose a big pay day or he wanted this risk to have some guarantee brightside
They should have teamed him with Marsha, Queen of Diamonds.
Gomez and Morticia together again!
As a kid when I saw the advertisement for the following week and they showed john Astin as the Riddler I was devastated , Frank gorshin was the Riddler , he was one of the reasons I watch the show those characters were great
They should had dressed John Astin in the tailored Riddler suit and derby to make it work, because I
think that he looks understandably uncomfortable and embarrassed running around in those tights.
A classy guy like Gomez Addams would never dress like that.
Frank Gorshin was the man when it came to the Riddler. I still remember that first episode with him. The Derby the cross the gun that was a lighter.
Actually, I am pretty sure Batman aired twice a week which is why the announcer would say, "Tune in Tomorrow. Same Bat Time, same Bat Channel." So kids didn't have to wait until next week for the continuation.
Actually, it was money. What most people don't know is that the Puzzler episodes were originally supposed to have Riddler as the villain. When Gorshin couldn't come to terms on pay, the story was rewritten and Maurice Evans cast as the Puzzler.
Astin wasn't bad, but he wasn't the Riddler. Frank Gorshin had the physical comedy that made his Riddler unique.
frank gorshin will always be my favourite riddler of all time
Gorshin was the best, the subtle changes in voice when speaking, up and down tones really made the character crazy as he was supposed to be. I think it was money, but there's nothing wrong with getting that. I have a question. Who did they audition for Catwoman after Julie Newmar couldn't do it. Was Eartha Kitt always the first choice or were others. Same goes for Batgirl. Do you have any info on that. Great channel, Keep it up. Cheers, Steve
With respect to John Astin, a fine actor! But when you mention the Riddler, Frank Gorshin was a natural and will always be the true Riddler!
Astin is a great comedian... he was awesome... and of course, we were already into our original Joker mode... it gives you a lot of questions when you are young... Astin did a fine job.
FYI, as of this moment, John Astin still breathes at the ripe old age of 92.
Somehow I missed the episodes with John Astin as the Riddler. I just remember Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. I like him best as the Riddler. No offense to John Astin.
I was about 8 years old watching the actual episodes back in the 60s, and i can still remember watching the 2 episodes with Astin as the Riddler. I remenber because i was extremely confused and angry that they replaced my favorite villain"s actor with Gomez Adams. My mom even asked why i was yelling at the TV! Lol
Same as you! I don't remember seeing the episodes with Astin!
you're not alone. i remembered seeing it only after watching this video. Cake of quicksand was ridiculous, even for Batman. Shame the writers just couldn't have invented a new villain instead of re-fitting the costume. Could've been a breakout role for Astin if they had.
In many, many interviews with film and television actors, many will state that, "my agent negotiated a better pay rate than I expected from that part." Which means that Mr. Gorshin might not have known about the agent's request for a pay raise. I remember those times, and especially Mr. Gorshin, as he was a Pittsburgh native. Being from that area, we always looked for "local" talent when watching television or movies.
During that time frame, Gorshin was primarily a stand-up impressionist. Those were at their peak then. Such performers as Rich Little, Frank, Rob Schneider, and others were in high demand. The premise of the Batman series was guest spots for high paid performers to add to the kitch of the pop culture. Many of us tuned in to see which artist would make a surprise appearance that week. Batman gave Gorshin the opportunity to show his acting chops and branch out into other roles. Given that he had just appeared in Star Trek, his demands for more money were entirely justified. Batman was making money hand over fist because of the style, and Gorshin was a prized player. Astin was not the only "replacement" actor in the series, as you know. Julie Neumar was forever Catwoman in the same fashion. Lee Merriweather was an adequate replacement, but the character was never the same. Even Eartha Kitt as Catwoman was a success, so the producers thought they could simply replace Gorshin as they had Neumar. To their surprise, it went over like a lead balloon. Gorshin forever cemented his place in that show after that, giving Romero and Meredith their bargaining chips.
Dodi Tov Rob Schneider didn’t do anything til the 1990s Dunno where you think he fits in to this situation
@@kimedmond5377 i think he meant Bob Newhart haha
@@kimedmond5377 Probably thinking of John Byner.
I remember when "Gomez Addams" showed up as The Riddler and it totally blew up my 7-year-old world view! All I could think there was a horrible mistake or Frank Gorshin was killed or gravely ill. I like John Astin (BTW, he's still with us at 90-plus years old, and teaching acting classes at his alma mater) and love his Gomez but he was out of his lane with Riddler. He didn't even get rid of the moustache for the role! Gorshin was THE Riddler as Astin was Gomez Addams. It would be like if Burgess Meredith was replaced by George Burns to play Penguin.
As to what happened with Frank Gorshin and the show, I think it was a classic game of chicken: Gorshin wanted more money (justifiable in my view), the production company balked at the demand so they tried the role with someone else. Both parties lose in a big way and realize it, they agree to talk, and eventually hash out a compromise deal. A latter-day version of this happened with "The Dukes Of Hazzard" when the two leading actors held out for more salary when the show was at its peak. That show's producers tried to go on without the two actors, hired look-alike replacements, and claimed the true star of the show is the car, The General Lee. It went one for a few episodes like this, the plots were now perceived as too contrived by viewers, the two parties went back to the table and hashed out a deal - and then wrote a hackneyed storyline bringing the two original stars back and sending the replacements on their way.
"Across" was played by Jim Lefebvre, whose regular job was playing second base for the Los Angeles Dodgers from 1965-1972.
cool
I forget who it was but the other henchman was also a Dodger too. Also they played natives in an episode of Gilligans Island. PS do you remember Gilligan on Batman? It was a gag because it was Alsn Hale playing a character named Gilligan
Another henchman was Roland La Starza, the boxer who lost a split decision to Rocky Marciano
@@dwlopez57 Al Ferrara was in a few episodes of Batman, and was with Lefebvre in the Gilligan's Island episode "High Man on the Totem Pole."
Love your positive words at the end. Your passion speaks volumes!
John Astin also starred as the captain of the tv series based on the movie Operation Petticoat called " in the Pink " . he gave a great interpretation of the Carey Grant role . A young Jamie Lee Curtis portrayed one of the rescued nurses . Thanks for posting this story . I never knew about him filling in as the Riddler .
Frank is always the riddler. I too like his mannerisms, laughter, just energy is amazing. Jon's interpretation was his own and pretty good like if Batman and Robin come he would had already set the trap for both of them when got there. He had what would the iconic question mark cane only for jon's performance and wouldn't seen again until Batman The Animated Series, The New Batman Animated Series, and Batman Forever.
One small correction. For the first two years, the Batman episodes were in two parts. They first part wasn't continued the next week, it was continued the next day (the episodes were two per week for the first two years.)
Its true. Batman had two new episodes on Wednesdays and Thursdays. I was a kid in the 60s. I was pissed off because I missed Batman on Wednesday because I was watching Lost In Space.
Batman had better ratings than Lost in Space did
Yes, I updated the description of the video to reflect the error. Thank you!
Hey, thanks for posting. I'm with ya on Gorshin's domination of the role- my personal favorite villain. Whadda trip he was. I dont know what to make of the brief substitution, but was glad for the reprisal. (that said, I also enjoyed the Gomez cameo ).
Frank Gorshin as the Riddler was the best Batman villain ever. I loved him SO much, to this day The Riddler is my favorite Batman character only because of him.
I always wondered why the switch. Thanks for explaining.
Three Mr Freezes, Three Catwomen two Riddlers.
@@johnbockelie3899 i know, but Riddler was always my favorite. (I had a crush on him 😜)
Wow. I thought I'd seen every episode, but damned if I can remember Gomez playing The Riddler. Bonkers! I need to hunt down and watch these 1 episodes now. Nice job, Rick! Love your work here!
Glad you enjoyed it, Dave! Very cool right?
@@ricknineg Indeed!
Irreplaceable is right! He's THE Riddler. Gorshin was an amazing talent. His impression routines were also 2nd to none. Guys have come along over the years who are really good with the voices but no one will ever match Gorshins presentation and the humor he mixed in with the routines. I would be impressed if someone could be half as good as Frank as the Riddler.
Met Frank 5 times in the 70s and several times later in the 2000s. ..When I first met him in 76 I asked about being replaced, he said he had a Vegas Commitment and the producers didn't want to delay production of this episode...He had no ill feelings about it..He asked me whom I thought was a better Riddler, him or John ? No contest I told him, but John was the definitive Gomez Addams ! Frank was a great guy...just that damn smoking !
I met Frank Gorshon at a SupermegaFest Show in My Hometown and he told me that he was on Vacation John Astin did a great job filling in for Frank and even if he doesn't look like him.
I was hooked on Batman when I was a kid, and the standout is Frank... I didn't even remember Aston being on Batman until memory jog. I also think the Jim Carey performance in whatever batman movie he was in owed more to Gorshin. Funny how they've never had the Riddler in other movies, as I think he's my favorite villain after Joker and Catwoman.
Okay since you're talkin about The Addams Family, Carolyn Jones who played Morticia, was also on the Batman series as the villainess Marsha Queen of Diamonds. Lurch also made an appearance via the window scene. So there is a total of three actors that did crossovers from Addams Family to Batman
I want to make a correction. "Batman" did use cliffhangers, but they were not separated by a week. Instead, the first part aired (on ABC) on Wednesday, then the other part aired the next day on Thursday. I was a kid in the 60s; I watched that show EVERY WEEK!
There was another episode during the second season that was actually a script meant for the Riddler that was then changed to the Puzzler, played by Maurice Evans, during Christmas week in 1966...
Gorshin was a notorious Playboy at the time and had high expenses and therefore I believe he demanded more money
Gorshin had a flair for the dramatic as well, as he was in the "Star Trek" episode, " Let This Be Your Final Battlefield", which I see as an alligory about the folly of prejudice.
Fun Fact: Exec. Producer William Dozier was the narrator on "Batman".
John Astin just looked, acted and sounded like Gomez Addams wearing a Riddler costume. He also looked chubby in the Riddler tights.
Haha basically true, it’s great
Frank Gorshin's Riddler was my favorite Batman villian because the riddles he made for living
Frank Gorshin was the best villain...period, on 60's Batman.
I remember the duo episodes airing on consecutive days. Wednesday and Thursday. Same Bat time. Same Bat channel
They had 3 cat-women, 2 Mr Freezes, and 2 Riddlers ...that's just how they rolled
Yes but correction, 3 Mr. Freezes
Sounds like a little bit of everything, schedule, salary... it was nice he came back to reprise the role. It was what I think of as is most notable roll.
Good video Rick, Frank Gorshin will always be the perfect Riddler.
Frank Gorshin as The Riddler, and Julie Newmar as Catwoman are both alike-totally irreplaceable.
Salary disputes have often caused the disruption of character appearances in TV series. As an example, Don DeFore and Whitney Blake of "Hazel" were dropped from the 5th and final season due to salary disputes. The first 4 seasons were on NBC, but was switched to CBS for the 5th season and CBS didn't want to pay. The dropping of DeFore and Blake greatly disrupted the immense chemistry that existed in the 4 previous seasons between all the actors and the show (in my opinion) was never the same. Shirley Booth elected to end the series at the conclusion of the 5th season. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that a salary dispute had something to do with Gorshin's absence on Batman.
Thank you Rick for all your post ♥️
I have no doubt the truth is in the middle and Gorshin was the Riddler, Astin was a pale substitute. The way Gorshin played the part was perfect Astin tried but never captured the same evil zaniness. It is like with Catwoman, Newmar played it purrfectly and both Kitt and Meriwether were pale substitutes.
Fun fact: in the game Diablo II, Lysander (the potions seller in Lut Gholein) and Marius are voiced by Frank Gorshin. The game was first released 5 years before Gorshin's death.
I don't remember the 2nd part of a Batman episode coming a week later. As I recall it was the next day.
Later, Frank would appear in an episode of Star Trek.
Yes. He plays the character Bele who is half black and half white. Frank is amazing in this role. You have to check this episode of Star Trek out. He will always be the Riddler. He owned the role. He was on quite a few TV shows. Believe it or not, he was also on Charlie's Angels too! One of my favourite actors.
He won an Emmy for that role in Star Trek..
The Star Trek episode is titled,"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield".
@@sandrasanders706 that's a myth.
He's one of at least 10 actors who appeared on both Trek and Batman. H was nominated for an Emmy for his portrayal of Riddler but didn't win. Did not win an Emmy for ST I dont think he was even nominated
I actually felt, and I do remember when Austin stepped in, that F.Gorshin was a FAR better “riddler” than Austin. Frank Gorshin, who was a brilliant impressionist besides, had the creepy & inane laugh and he was simply the best and eeriest! !
Astin was a good substitute. And since people liked him on the Addams Family, it was a smart choice. Of course Gorshin, was the best actor at that time to play him. They always found good actors to play the villains, which was strange considering how crazy that show got at times.
It’s impossible to speculate about the specifics. But if I had to guess, Dosier’s version is probably much closer to the truth. Producers will always try to stay within budget.
Considering that we had Lurch appear on this show during one of the window scenes, I think this Riddler is just Gomez Addams pulling an elaborate prank on Batman.
I don't remember John Astin as the Riddler. Having said that, I can certainly believe that Gorshin wanted more money 💰.
The episodes weren’t continued the next week, it was the following night.
I gotta go with Frank Gorshin, his story does make sense. What's interesting was the episode with the Puzzler was supposed to be a Riddler episode also, guess Gorshin was unavailable for that episode as well. Glad he came back for season 3. As for John Astin, I think he did good, he did try his best.
The second part of the episodes were a day later, not a week later.
This is something that I forgot, being ten years old at the time, then I forgot that I'd forgotten it.
1967 was also the year biological Paul McCartney was also replaced by Billy shears, and the charade continues
In 1966 Frank Gorshin also had an excellent role in the superb western "Ride Beyond Vengeance"
I'm a little late getting here. I watched Batman when i was a kid. I hinestly NEVER noticed the switch. .
correction: When originally aired, Batman episodes, written as two-parters, that aired, NOT over two weeks, but rather one night after the other; Wednesday and Thursday at 8 pm Eastern.
Perhaps by the time you saw them they were in weekly syndication but the original broadcasts were two consecutive nights.
I had the pleasure of meeting Frank Gorshin many years ago .... nice chap.... always enjoyed the guy on screen, brilliant impression as well .
William Morris Agency was the “villain” here. Once Frank signed with them he had to let the Agency talk to Dozier and not to respond to any queries from the fans or Dozier’s people. In the meantime Austin was available and understood this was a one-time appearance so like a good thespian he gave 110% to the role. Remember at this time in history actors only received royalties for a brief couple of years and the only way actors could hope for a pay raise was to negotiate through an agency.
William Morris Agency was a force to be reckoned with in any area of talent from modeling, stage, screen and music. I would imagine the studios rather took their orders from them not the other way around. Just my opinion, though. I wasn't even born yet so I wouldn't really know. I truly loved these reruns as a kid, though. I would rush home off the school bus so as not to miss even one minute.
I actually remember this: I remember being disappointed that Frank Gorshin was replaced! To me Gorshin WAS The Riddler! His laugh his giggle and his wiry moves were priceless!!! John Astin was a poor imitation!
So cool that Sean Astin is going to be the Riddler in the new batman movie. Like father, like son.
Goonies never say die but i just can't see Rudy as the Riddler, Sean's father did a get by job of it but no where near better than Gorshin's.. Carrot Top could probably do a better job of it, Sean Astin has grown into the business and has talent but idk? I could be wrong I guess we shall see??
John Austin is a treasure, but he was no Frank Gorshin as the Riddler
Fun fact unrelated to this video: Frank Gorshin was the headliner on _The Ed Sullivan Show_ the night the Beatles first appeared in 1964.
There were actually two times during the second season that Gorshin was replaced. "The Puzzles Are Coming/The Duo Is Slumming" (Dec. 21-22, 1966) were originally written as Riddler episodes. When Gorshin was unavailable, Maurice Evans was brought in, the villain was changed to The Puzzler and the scripts were re-written, adding a number of Shakespeare elements to accommodate Evans, who was a famous Shakespearean actor.
I thought i recognised the name he plays samatha's father in bewitched
I suspect they're both recollecting part of it. More than likely the agency offered a way to buy him out of his booking. This could be interpreting his fee plus the buyout as asking for more money.
Frank Gorshin was an underated actor. Played the best riddler I believe. Listen how he speaks, moves, and acts. Definitely comes from that dramatic broadway style. Macbeth, Camelot, that poetic style of acting. And that crazy laugh as the riddler. I don't think anyone could beat it. He should have been a very well known actor.
I also heard that the puzzler episodes where rewritten riddler episodes. Making his absence longer!
Yes liked the puzzler too they were gonna be called. A penny for your riddles and they’re worth a lot more
I had read a story somewhere (take it for what it's worth) that Adam West and Gorshin had gone to a party somewhere, got ripping drunk, and decided to have a contest to see who could sleep with the most ladies (both of them were noted lotharios), and some of the girls were not of age. This was part of what got him axed from the show..
..Again, it's internet stuff..take it with a grain of salt.
I remember reading about why Frank Gorshin did not return for Season 2 of Batman. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: List of Batman (TV series) episodes: 'Despite being the most prominent villain during Season 1, Frank Gorshin was completely absent as The Riddler during Season 2, as Gorshin was holding out for a salary increase for continuing on in the role, which the studio refused to comply with. As a result, a storyline in Season 2 that was originally intended for the Riddler was instead given to a character called The Puzzler, while another storyline later on in Season 2 saw John Astin replace Gorshin in the role of the Riddler." I had also read that after Season 1 and the feature film, Frank Gorshin became so popular because of the role that he was the only actor from the series that was nominated for an Emmy. So, possibly, it went to his head a bit and that's why he held out for more money.
Gorshin probably did have a prior commitment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the agent took that tense moment as an opportunity to press for a raise for Gorshin, and thus for themself too. He should have gotten that producer to put his words in writing and then sold Riddler merchandise.
I loved loved LOVED Gorshin's Riddler. As far as I'm concerned, the series could have had him on every blessed episode! Astin was different, but serviceable in this role. I always found it a pity that they could not have teamed up this Riddler with Carolyn Jones' Marsha Queen of Diamonds character, to have Gomez & Morticia reunited! My favorite part of the Astin episodes is when he freaks out on his minions when he yells..."How...can...you LAMEBRAINS PLAY CARDS at a time like THIS!!!" And also when he exclaims "Am I not the KING?!??!...KING KING KING!"
Gorshin was the best, however the Producer's version makes more sense to me. Stay healthy and be kind.
My favorite batman villain was the Riddler! Frank Gorshin was my favorite Riddler! No one could replicate that laugh or be as entertaining as he was. I was very disappointed when John Astin replaced him. The very first Batman episode was entitled "Hi Diddle Riddle" and the second was "Smack Down The Middle." Both featured Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. Frank Gorshin also recorded a song called "The Riddler". I't a great song filled with riddles and his incredible laugh!
John
Weren't there 3-4 different actors playing Mr Freeze as well?
The Riddler was my favorite Batman "arch enemy" due to Gorshin's portrayal, even when I was a kid.
I can understand that they had to find another actor for The Riddler in tis two-part episode. With all due respect to John Astin whom I absolutely love as Gomez Addams, he somehow wasn't right for the part of The Riddler, that was Frank Gorshin's part.
Frank was busy with other things. He also was concerned about being typecast as the Riddler which happened anyway. But Frank was busy doing shows in Las Vegas. It was only affter the very poor performance by John Astin as Gomez Riddler, the producers managed to get Frank back for two episodes in the third year.
4:00 The answer to everything is always M-O-N-E-Y
Also remember Frank Gorshon doing marvelous impressions on the Ed Sullivan show.
Episodes were done back to back two nights a week! Same bat time, same bat channel!
William Dozier not Dozer.
According to Adam west in his book back to the batcave he also stated the contract dispute leading to John Ashton being brought in for the episodes Batman’s anniversary and A Riddling Controversy but it got settled for this characters finale appearance in season 3 episode Ring Around the Riddler a one episode plot
I loved John ,but Frank was the very best. The laugh is monumental.
The episodes were a day apart not next week, in the NYC area it was Thurs and Fri.