This was a wonderful interview. Elder Jensen is a wonderful man. I agree with him about the things the church does well and the things it can do better.
What a beautiful person Elder Jenssen is, I was very moved by his testimony, his integrity. Thank you for this in-depth discussion about how church history is being approached from a new angle. Openness is the only way forward.
There are two diffrent things we are talking about. The one is the "Gospel" and the other is the "Church". When people listen to the missionaries, or read Church literature, or visit a sacrament service - they get converted by feeling the Spirit. As they join the Church they are faced with terms, programs, and expectations they have to meet - that becomes the part that gets in the way of staying with Christ and the Gospel. When you add the recent Church history discoveries - it is too much to take in and they leave the Church not knowing that it was the Gospel they were converted to. We have to get them to stay with the Spirit and see the Church as only a vehicle through which the gospel is taught and preached, and things are organized. Unfortunately they conflate both Gospel and Church together where one is flawed and the other is parfect - and walk away from eveything. Like Dr. Givens said - testimonies are that based on the Church and not the Gospel are not on solid ground (more or less).
If it was about the Savior, why the church focuses so much about Joseph Smith and prophets? After all, we learned it was all lies! The Mormon church needs to be honest and stop silencing people who question!
It might help if The Church could accept a little more science. I find a lot of the youth in highschool having a crisis of their faith as they learn about science. But, as a public educator, I'm not allowed to talk religion, so I can't really help them. I had a great class as a senior at BYU that was strictly about science and religion and how there need not be a conflict. I wish church leaders could do more to show that so that youth don't fall away from the church when they learn truths in science that seem to conflict with what they've been taught in religion. There need not be a conflict, but church leaders need to get in this game and stop ignoring the fact. Too many youth fall away because what they learn in school is different from what they learn in church. With an open mind, there is no conflict, but people need to be shown that. And The Church does nothing to help! It's a tragedy that need not exist. I would love to be able to help! The souls of too many people are at risk and they fall away, and they need not.
Let’s get back to the point! We have been lied to, gaslit, whitewashed, deflected, blame-shifted, all the fruits of Lucifer. Yes ! Yes! Yes! Praise the lord I bailed from the sinking ship ! I have never had more peace and connection with the heavens than now !
I think this more relevant today than ever. "It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull, oppressive, insipid. When faith is completely replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor of the past; when faith becomes an heirloom rather than a living fountain; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion--its message becomes meaningless." Abraham Joshua Heschel, God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism
J7 T8 Accurate or not, it’s also a much more helpful way of looking at things. I don’t think it’s fair to lay all the blame on religion as I believe a materialistic society has been damaging too, but it’s easier to move forward and change things when we take responsibility. Then perhaps our faith can grow all the stronger as we grow stronger in love and how we live our faith. It would be challenging to dismiss a society of true disciples who are all genuinely trying to live what Jesus taught.
Love this. Its not those who leave's fault that they do not believe the truth claims. Its not some kind of battle that the secular world is waging. Instead try to teach something believable and we will stay. If the only way the truth claims are believable is if the believers are ignorant of a set of information than I think that is a problem with the truth claims, not those of us that leave. Hanging on for the sake of hanging on would keep all kinds of people trapped in all kinds of belief systems. If you don't believe it is true, have the faith to let go.
This is a great interview. I have to say that presenting a star spangled come come ye saints retelling of our history was a profoundly stupid decision. If it had been a more warts and all retelling I don't think there would much of anything on exmo tiktok.
This was a wonderful interview. Elder Jensen is a wonderful man. I agree with him about the things the church does well and the things it can do better.
Ive have always been drawn to Marlin K. Jensen. His meekness, his insight, I hope to be like him because I feel like he is christlike.
What a beautiful person Elder Jenssen is, I was very moved by his testimony, his integrity. Thank you for this in-depth discussion about how church history is being approached from a new angle. Openness is the only way forward.
Thanks! Very informative.
There are two diffrent things we are talking about. The one is the "Gospel" and the other is the "Church". When people listen to the missionaries, or read Church literature, or visit a sacrament service - they get converted by feeling the Spirit. As they join the Church they are faced with terms, programs, and expectations they have to meet - that becomes the part that gets in the way of staying with Christ and the Gospel.
When you add the recent Church history discoveries - it is too much to take in and they leave the Church not knowing that it was the Gospel they were converted to. We have to get them to stay with the Spirit and see the Church as only a vehicle through which the gospel is taught and preached, and things are organized. Unfortunately they conflate both Gospel and Church together where one is flawed and the other is parfect - and walk away from eveything.
Like Dr. Givens said - testimonies are that based on the Church and not the Gospel are not on solid ground (more or less).
If it was about the Savior, why the church focuses so much about Joseph Smith and prophets? After all, we learned it was all lies! The Mormon church needs to be honest and stop silencing people who question!
The whole narrative is about Jesus Christ. It's all through the BM.
It might help if The Church could accept a little more science. I find a lot of the youth in highschool having a crisis of their faith as they learn about science. But, as a public educator, I'm not allowed to talk religion, so I can't really help them. I had a great class as a senior at BYU that was strictly about science and religion and how there need not be a conflict. I wish church leaders could do more to show that so that youth don't fall away from the church when they learn truths in science that seem to conflict with what they've been taught in religion. There need not be a conflict, but church leaders need to get in this game and stop ignoring the fact. Too many youth fall away because what they learn in school is different from what they learn in church. With an open mind, there is no conflict, but people need to be shown that. And The Church does nothing to help! It's a tragedy that need not exist.
I would love to be able to help! The souls of too many people are at risk and they fall away, and they need not.
Let’s get back to the point! We have been lied to, gaslit, whitewashed, deflected, blame-shifted, all the fruits of Lucifer. Yes ! Yes! Yes! Praise the lord I bailed from the sinking ship ! I have never had more peace and connection with the heavens than now !
Elder Jensen commissioned the study to research why church members are leaving.
I think this more relevant today than ever.
"It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull, oppressive, insipid. When faith is completely replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor of the past; when faith becomes an heirloom rather than a living fountain; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion--its message becomes meaningless."
Abraham Joshua Heschel, God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism
J7 T8 Accurate or not, it’s also a much more helpful way of looking at things. I don’t think it’s fair to lay all the blame on religion as I believe a materialistic society has been damaging too, but it’s easier to move forward and change things when we take responsibility. Then perhaps our faith can grow all the stronger as we grow stronger in love and how we live our faith. It would be challenging to dismiss a society of true disciples who are all genuinely trying to live what Jesus taught.
that was beautiful wording
Love this. Its not those who leave's fault that they do not believe the truth claims. Its not some kind of battle that the secular world is waging. Instead try to teach something believable and we will stay. If the only way the truth claims are believable is if the believers are ignorant of a set of information than I think that is a problem with the truth claims, not those of us that leave.
Hanging on for the sake of hanging on would keep all kinds of people trapped in all kinds of belief systems. If you don't believe it is true, have the faith to let go.
This is a great interview. I have to say that presenting a star spangled come come ye saints retelling of our history was a profoundly stupid decision. If it had been a more warts and all retelling I don't think there would much of anything on exmo tiktok.