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And the “oh my god” just before that. You can hear in his voice he’s realized what must have happened and then having to say out loud just destroys him.
And you know that's not something they say lightly. Even if they're thinking it, they don't say it out loud unless they're pretty sure it happened. Pilots, ATC, any airline personnel - they just don't say it out loud.
There’s another Korean Air crash that’s definitely worth covering, that of Korean Air Cargo Flight 8509. A crash caused by a faulty INU which sent the wrong data to the captain, even though the co-pilots readings were correct. However, the co-pilot did not challenge the captain here because Korean culture basically states that “Your superior is always correct no matter what”.
@@noname-nu6oo There was also an issue with the captain in that he talked down constantly to his co-pilots and that he believed everyone should be kissing his ass.
@lewismoreman9227 I can't think of what a "crossbar" is in this context? What is it excat? Are there other names for it, that I as an American, might be familiar with?
@@sparky6086 It's a bar that crosses under the back of the seat in front of you, right in the middle of the shin. In a crash, it'll break your shin bones (tibias). As I understand, because of his campaign, they have re-designed aircraft seats so they don't have them anymore. They were unnecessary.
I’m currently going through flight school and this is stuff I’ve had nightmares about. You HAVE to get rest. You need to be on top of your game everytime you sit in those chairs
@@shawshank_1317 I used to work for a regional in the early 90s, and I know how true this is. Colgan Air's crash tells me that 20 years later nothing had changed. Pilots have to jump through the hoop of the regionals to get to the flag carriers, and it's sick how they're treated - and dangerous.
My dad was stationed on Guam at the time and was a first responder for this crash. He also helped set up communication between the search teams in the hills and other teams below
The recording between the controllers really does give insight into what it's like to be on the ground during this kind of situation. You can hear the realization in their voices. We don't get to hear that side often.
Great video Chloe! Although slight correction on the last part - while Flight 8509 was the last fatal Korean Air crash, it wasn't the last hull-loss of a Korean Air plane. Just last year, HL7525, an Airbus A330-300 flying as Korean Air Flight 631, was lost due to a runway excursion in Cebu. Everyone survived though so it wasn't fatal.
Makes me wonder actually when you were on about how well respected that captain was, how much that plays into things as ar as even though CRM is a thing, not feeling able to speak up due to having such a well respected captain in the left seat
@@freddiecunningham2860 It’s not that simple, specially in South Korea. Their culture basically states that the more experienced person is always right no matter what, and to question them is seen as shameful
I’ve trained Asian crews and there commonly is a high power-distance between Captains and the balance of the crew. My experience with them is that they are universally bright and extremely studious and generally very good pilots, but that junior pilots sometimes (not always) hesitate to speak up to challenge their seniors. Airlines know this and have emphasized CRM, and safety culture has improved. Understand that I’m not judging this particular crew here (although this is a very commonly used accident in CRM discussions), but addressing the point raised about speaking up in the cockpit. RIP.
I remember that being a thing the Mayday episode made a point of explaining with the other Korean Air crash, the 8501 as well, I was aware of the power dynamics and wonder how much the gap has actually closed however, it's extremely hard to change an ingrained culture overnight after all. An airline can preach about CRM all they want but if the culture is of you don't speak up or challenge people that are higher up than you in society in terms of experience or age, as I understand the way the Korean social dynamics work, you are going to have a very hard time with crews and CRM for every crew and pilot
@@jacekatalakis8316 Incidentally, this kind of culture is toxic in a lot of environments, not just piloting, and it seems East Asia has a particularly large amount of it - not that it's unknown in other parts of the world. As you say, changing culture is hard, but it can be done if enough people with some power desire to do so strongly enough - from an absolute ruler to mass protestors, there are examples in history. Doesn't mean it's not hard.
I know that it's not always recoverable due to the time taken for engines to spool up, but when GPWS and sink rate warnings are heard, pilots must take action immediately.
"Well he must have crashed then." That just gave me chills. I don't work in any industry even remotely related to Air Traffic Control, but I'll bet saying something like that over the radio isn't something to be said lightly. Damn.
there's something painfully sad about that conversation between the two controllers, the way one of them said 'he must have crashed then.' great video, as always!
@@asmrsona3170 yes me too, I came to say the same thing. I don't know whether the person is confused or in shock, but it's the strangest response I've ever heard to something so terrible. What a tragedy all round.
I remember seeing the aftermath footage of this crash on the TV. I was visiting my Grandmother and she liked to watch the news a lot. So when the news broke, we saw this.
In a sad way, this crash bares a lot of similarities to AVIANCA Columbia Flight 11, 13 years earlier, another case where the pilots of a Boeing B747 mismanaged a final approach and crashed onto a hillside resulting in total devastation.
Interestingly, YT reply tagging the OP doesn't actually seem to be automatic anymore! It works in Instagram, but I find it's extremely hit-or-miss in YT, esp. if you're using an ad-blocked browser rather than the app itself? Can be really annoying, esp. where a long comment trail exists and you're wanting to reference something further up that string... 😔
As always, brilliantly done Chloe. This is so much better than the stuff you see on TV. I am always amazed how you (as a non pilot) are able to explain aviation technology (like glidescope, ILS , outer marker etc) with so few words and still make it very comprehensible. Keep it up!
Just wanted to say that I saw another video on a different channel covering this crash too, but you’ve provided so much more insight into what happened and I greatly appreciate that!
A great description of this event. You have a good narrative speed, añd an excellent clear voice. I am so glad you dont have loud, obtrusive music in your documentaries. Congratulations and I await next Saturday’s event. 😊
Hi Chloe, I so appreciate all the hard work you do in making your videos. You share so much information that helps a non-pilot like myself to understand what can and did go wrong when planes crash, or encounter problems. Thank you for all you do! All of your videos are very informative and well done.
Great content as always Chloe! Wondering if you could cover Fine Air Flight 101 and Thai International Airways Flight 311. Two very intriguing disasters. Flight 101 actually occurred one day before this incident, making it even more spooky. Thanks!
Been waiting for you to cover this! I was born and raised on Guam, and I remember this crash happened on the first day of school. My mom knew people on the plane.
So instead of giving him a longer flight that might have had relief pilots where this pilot could get some rest they gave him a shorter flight he'd need to be more immediately attentive on. The best laid plans...
Damn this crash was the one that gave me a fear of flying as a kid. 4 days later was my first flight which got struck by lightning all lights went out and felt like we dropped. I wasn't happy flying till the mid2000s
Interesting fact : The Guam crash led to a very notable case in South Korean Inheritance law. In the accident, the owner of a wealthy business died along with the other members of the family - all except for the lone son-in-law who had remian in Seoul to tend to company issues. So the question arises : Who has the right to the inheritance? In Korean inheritance law (in case where the will is non-existent), sons or daughters in-law are usually the last in line. So, if any direct member of the family survived for any single second after the crash, then the son-in-law is automatically removed from the list. Whoosh. However, there is a very interesting tidbit of a clause : In case where the sequence of death is chronologically close and the evidence of such sequence is extremely hard to find, the dead are legally seen to have perished simultaneously. In this case, the son-in-law is the sole heritor of the family wealth. The South Korean Supreme Court, in the end, ruled in favor of the simultaneous perish clause. The son-in-law got the inheritance, and legally, he was the winner.... But still, the loss would have been unimaginable. I suppose.
Switching off any landing aids at night, but more especially if bad weather is forecasted, was sheer lunacy. You'd think if so, the airport should have been closed down temporarily until better weather, in the very least.
An interesting fact about Korean Air Flight 801. Was that this flight was actually supposed to be operated by an Airbus A330 but due to demands it was switched to the Boeing 747-300 Also what makes this even tragic was that this accident occurred just one day before what could've been a catastrophic accident in Miami, Fine Air Cargo Flight 101. From Miami to the Dominican Republic crashed on takeoff. Which killed all 3 pilots, security guard onboard and one person on the ground. The plane was a DC-8 I believe the -61F or the -71F version registered as N27UA (Note: it was originally supposed to be that this flight was to be served by N30UA but was switched last minute like in this accident) But I do want to see Dan-Air 1903 and 1008 first before this one. This definitely was a sad crash and could've been prevented. May the victims rest in peace.
sometimes crashes happen days apart. Helios 522 and West Caribbean 708 crashed two days apart in August 2005, and In March 1966, Canadian Pacific Flight 402 crashed the day before BOAC flight 911 in the same city.
@@AntiAntiVaxxer2008 Oh should I say the worst of them all was Continental Express Flight 2574 which happened on the exact day that 9/11 occurred. But 10 years back. September 11th, 1991.
This famous disaster is well-documented in Malcom Gladwell's excellent book, "Outliers," which details transmitter- and receiver-oriented languages. Well worth the read, especially if you're interested in this particular incident; while sleepiness was a contributing factor, cultural/lingual mechanisms may have had far more to do with the accident. Korean air had a spate of disasters around this time, to the point where it was realized it wasn't sleepiness, but how the Korean language is oriented, that was causing problems. In fact, Korean air hired an ex-Delta chief, David Greenberg, to re-do their systems, and the first step was making all on-board communications in English, already the "international language of aviation." You mentioned that they drastically improved their record, but that is how.
@@feralcatgirl Not great based on what? You read it? Or some podcast you shill for hated it, and since they said it was bad, it was bad? Irrespective of your trifling contribution here, the section in the book on this particular incident is insightful, a stark photonegative of your banal comment.
Nice video, they are beginning to hit their stride and I feel your content is getting better with time. I like the touch of annotating when you are stating you opinion vs. fact.
I remember watching this on Air Crash Investigation and there was also another accident with Korean Airlines that happened in the UK BUT it was with a Cargo Plane and the accident that destroyed the reputation of the airline from the episode bad attitude
A "From the hip" hypothesis for what happened here, in search of critique.: 1) The pilot was known as very serious and strict when it came to preparation, but was very sleepy. This (in my opinion) can result in the brain defaulting to "known" uniform values/details that can be reliably assumed to be in place. It's just too much mental effort to do anything obsessive without these shortcuts. 1.1) The co-pilots repeatedly reminded the Captain that he was screwing up, even if they were limiting their words to avoid the appearance of lecturing the boss. 2) The "NIMITZ VOR" was non-standard, in that it was also the DME transmitter, which is normally placed at the airport. 3) The crash photographs show the VOR antenna array so close to the plane at rest, that it's at least possible that the pilot attempted to land at the VOR, confusing it with the uniform condition of "DME is placed at airport". 4) The operating principal, and frequencies used in both a Glideslope and VOR are very similar, in that they use the same radio band, and radio wave phase angles to determine an accurate direction from the receiver (on the plane) to the transmitter (on the ground). 5) Due to humid, salty air, in the woods, on a mineral-rich mountain, with birds (shitting wherever they roost, and roosting above things, such as on antennas and their structures), a form of common pest to radio operations could have been made. It's in the form of a "diode" due to the electrical connection between dissimilar conductors, and it can cause all manner of mayhem to a radio system as it pretty much results in additional signals that are related to the desired signal, but are electrically malformed, and this corrupts the desired signal, preventing it from being received propperly. 6) This effect, or interference between the VOR and Glideslope due to this effect, may have been why one of the two was tagged out at the time. 7) The similarity of the VOR and Glideslope in function, combined with the spurious transmissions from one of these environmental galvanic diode junctions close to the radiating elements of the VOR, and the eagerness for the Glideslope to find and track a week signal as its one job, caused it to lock onto the spurious signals of the VOR. Result: Glideslope and VOR were not functioning correctly because of a galvanic diode, caused by environmental effects of outdoor radios, and it was causing disruption in the Glideslope receives in aircraft. A troubleshooting decision to shut down the system with unresolved complaints (the Glideslope Transmitter) left only the Non-Standard VOR, with its 3mile DME offset, and yet-un-diagnosed spurious signal transmissions. Captain with OCD traits is too tired to thoroughly double-check his work, and falls back to his underlying set of (self)standardized rules, that a DME is at the airport. All pilots must substitute some mental reasoning for the lack of visual indication of the runway lights, and in the rain, there is an urge to keep going until you see the lights, if you are convinced that they are there. The pilot followed this reasoning all the way into the VOR antenna site. Being that there are plethora reasons for putting 100% of the blame on the pilots and their airline, nobody bothered to follow up with the NTSC and officially amend the report with what fault was corrected with the Glideslope system, and for litigation reasons, the airport has determined that nobody really needs to know that sort of thing... That, or the crash knocked loose the bird poo, or corroded bolt that set this chain of events into motion, and it may be some intermittent "Ghost" in the machine at that airport to this day... Substituting superstition and urban legend for a repair that could save the next tired jet crew.
The so-called “Rusty Bolt Effect”. Confusing the VOR frequency with the ILS localizer has been involved in other accidents. The localizer and glideslope are actually a paired set of frequencies. The localizers operate between the VHF 108.100 MHz and 111.950 MHz, with paired glideslope frequencies in the UHF 329.150 MHz - 335.000 MHz range. When you tune the localizer frequency, the aircraft’s radio automatically also tunes the correct associated glideslope frequency. Google “ILS HFUnderground” for a list of the ILS VHF / UHF glide slope and localizer frequencies. The glideslope frequency is *never* the third harmonic of the localizer. However, the glideslope system operates within the 225 MHz - 400 MHz UHF military aircraft band. In theory, the glideslope frequencies are not actually used for voice communications. However, it’s a remote possibility. The VOR system operates in the same broader VHF NAV band 108-117.95 MHz. It’s therefore easy to tune your ILS into a VOR. There’s a reason these radio navigation systems transmit an identifier! The marker beacons operate on the VHF mid band frequency 75.000 MHz. The marker beacons are simple beacons, and they transmit straight up. The DME system uses the UHF 960 MHz - 1215 MHz aeronautical radionavigation band. Don’t forget the NDB (ADF, RMI) system! In my (limited) flight training, my instructor actually made a point of teaching me to navigate using the ADF, as well as using VOR - both combined and just navigating using the ADF. He didn’t trust GPS (and with good reason - it is very easily jammed and spoofed). Ground based radio navigation systems can also be jammed, but much more powerful jamming transmitters are usually required (compared to the low power that is required to jam GPS).
Having a long career in RF, I can verify, that birds can be bad news, because many of them like to roost in radio towers and defecate on antennae. In the Deep South of the US, buzzards are a particular nuance. They are large, so produce a huge volume of droppings.
I remember watching the Mayday episode on this and distinctly remember Barry Small discussing his observations in an interview. In addition, I felt my blood run cold when I heard the transmission between the ATC employees. Chilling and disturbing.
I really appreciate your videos. I think a video dedicated to radio navigation systems. Namely: GPS/GNSS [and the WAAS/LAAS] or “RNAV” approach, the ILS as a complete system as an approach navigation system and each part of the ILS - as you’ve touched on in this video, the VOR/VORTAC and NDB system and how they form the waypoints used to connect the modern air routes that crisscross the planet. Other topics include DME, TCAS, the transponder systems, ADS-B and so on. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding among the layman in regard to how all these systems work, their advantages, weaknesses/disadvantages and how they’ve interacted with other factors in many of these aviation accidents. FWIW, Korean Airlines pilots seem to have a lot of anxiety about landing at an airport runway without a fully functional ILS (regardless of if they’re flying in IMC or visual conditions). Keep up the good work!
When you mentioned the patrion list I think it's better, if you state "when" you see your name here, instead of saying "if" you see your name here a massive thank you to you... Thanks for posting your videos I always watch, enjoy, and learn from them..
My dad helped clean up from this crash, he was part of the Navy and stationed on Frank Cable. The descriptions he gave on helping clean up the bodies was brutal.
When the governor actually comes out to the rescue operation and is recorded to save lives, you know you have a politician like no other in the country.
Very nicely done, as always. I had not heard about this crash before. Please, please please, more railroad disasters!!! Also, have you thought of maybe doing infrastructure and building disasters??? There are not enough creators who have your awsome combination of thoroughness and non-sensationalism.
Great documentary explaining how the accident occurred. When you allow a tired or fatigued pilot to fly, it is an accident waiting to happen. When tired, inadequate attention is paid to details which allow the aircraft to make a safe landing. I did not hear any mention of the GPWS ( ground proximity warning system) because it may not have been available on aircraft of that generation. A well produced documentary!
Interesting too that when the captain mentioned he was feeling so fatigued, there appears to have been no operational procedure in place that required the FO to immediately take over as pilot in control... I wonder if any airlines have that in place? It seems a fairly basic precaution to have, when a colleague is so tired they're actually remarking on it?
CRM only works when the crew makes an effort to adhere to it. This disaster is reminiscent of pre-CRM era where questioning the captain's authority and experience was unheard of.
I can't even imagine trying to deal with that type of loss & trauma!! 😭 Especially at such a young age. Really, really hope the airline paid for professional psychological help for these survivors, hut sadly given the era & the context, I doubt that happened...? 😔 Hope she was able to build a positive life despite that incredibly rough start.
the ILS doesn't send out any information. It sends out 4 beams of directed radiation. 2 beam lobes for azimuth and 2 beam lobes for elevation. The beams use different frequencies. The aircraft can then detect where it is within those beams by the signal strength ratio between the two, where when they match, the aircraft is in the center, which is in turn lined up with the glide slope angle for that runway (typically 3°)
If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
Twitter: twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCB
When that one guy says "Well, he must have crashed then." I can feel the air being sucked out of him.
Exactly, he comes to the only logical conclusion (if they followed protocol) and states this professionally while being shocked at the realization.
And the “oh my god” just before that. You can hear in his voice he’s realized what must have happened and then having to say out loud just destroys him.
And you know that's not something they say lightly. Even if they're thinking it, they don't say it out loud unless they're pretty sure it happened. Pilots, ATC, any airline personnel - they just don't say it out loud.
what a guy the governor actually went in as a first responder to help and not 2 days later for a photo shoot saying this was bad then leaving
chad governor
There’s another Korean Air crash that’s definitely worth covering, that of Korean Air Cargo Flight 8509. A crash caused by a faulty INU which sent the wrong data to the captain, even though the co-pilots readings were correct. However, the co-pilot did not challenge the captain here because Korean culture basically states that “Your superior is always correct no matter what”.
toxic asian culture claiming lives are unsurprising
Yea that's a big huge problem with the Koreans.
@@noname-nu6oo There was also an issue with the captain in that he talked down constantly to his co-pilots and that he believed everyone should be kissing his ass.
yep. it's why people don't call Tokyo cyberpunk anymore.
Yes, VERY preventable accident.
That helicopter pilot was incredibly observant! 😮
Yes Mr Small made observations even while under extreme duress and injury. Cr dit to his training as a heli pilot.
He said the same thing on the show Air Crash Investigation
As he pointed out the dangers of the crossbar on the chairs and the alcohol beverages in the storage compartment
@lewismoreman9227 I can't think of what a "crossbar" is in this context? What is it excat? Are there other names for it, that I as an American, might be familiar with?
@@sparky6086 It's a bar that crosses under the back of the seat in front of you, right in the middle of the shin. In a crash, it'll break your shin bones (tibias). As I understand, because of his campaign, they have re-designed aircraft seats so they don't have them anymore. They were unnecessary.
I’m currently going through flight school and this is stuff I’ve had nightmares about. You HAVE to get rest. You need to be on top of your game everytime you sit in those chairs
The same is true for cars, for that matter, and it leads to accidents all the time. If you feel sleepy, get rest!
Tell that to the airlines and civil aviation bodies who gets payed by them to approve inhuman policies in a pilot's roster
@@shawshank_1317 I used to work for a regional in the early 90s, and I know how true this is. Colgan Air's crash tells me that 20 years later nothing had changed. Pilots have to jump through the hoop of the regionals to get to the flag carriers, and it's sick how they're treated - and dangerous.
get rest. fuck corporate greed. they should have a proper safety margin when it comes to rest
IMO, "Controlled flight into terrain" are the saddest words in any discussion of aviation incidents.
My dad was stationed on Guam at the time and was a first responder for this crash. He also helped set up communication between the search teams in the hills and other teams below
Massive kudos to your Dad!
*slow clap* gotta make this about you, eh?
@@nicholasjaworski9368 What if it had been your Dad??
@Nicholas Jaworski you must be fun at parties.
Bruh my dad was on The Frank Cable and helped also that's crazy
also your accent/voice/sound is so clear its so easy to understand (english is my thrid language)
The recording between the controllers really does give insight into what it's like to be on the ground during this kind of situation. You can hear the realization in their voices. We don't get to hear that side often.
This channel is superb, the combination of technical explanations and visual storytelling is incredible. We’ll done, Chloe.
15:40 That's the Nimitz VOR in the foreground. Amazing how close they came to it.
Yeah it was the same with the Lamia crash in 2016 they crashed right beside Rionegro VOR
Great video Chloe! Although slight correction on the last part - while Flight 8509 was the last fatal Korean Air crash, it wasn't the last hull-loss of a Korean Air plane. Just last year, HL7525, an Airbus A330-300 flying as Korean Air Flight 631, was lost due to a runway excursion in Cebu. Everyone survived though so it wasn't fatal.
Makes me wonder actually when you were on about how well respected that captain was, how much that plays into things as ar as even though CRM is a thing, not feeling able to speak up due to having such a well respected captain in the left seat
Screw that Id would had said something
@@freddiecunningham2860 It’s not that simple, specially in South Korea. Their culture basically states that the more experienced person is always right no matter what, and to question them is seen as shameful
I’ve trained Asian crews and there commonly is a high power-distance between Captains and the balance of the crew. My experience with them is that they are universally bright and extremely studious and generally very good pilots, but that junior pilots sometimes (not always) hesitate to speak up to challenge their seniors. Airlines know this and have emphasized CRM, and safety culture has improved. Understand that I’m not judging this particular crew here (although this is a very commonly used accident in CRM discussions), but addressing the point raised about speaking up in the cockpit.
RIP.
I remember that being a thing the Mayday episode made a point of explaining with the other Korean Air crash, the 8501 as well, I was aware of the power dynamics and wonder how much the gap has actually closed however, it's extremely hard to change an ingrained culture overnight after all. An airline can preach about CRM all they want but if the culture is of you don't speak up or challenge people that are higher up than you in society in terms of experience or age, as I understand the way the Korean social dynamics work, you are going to have a very hard time with crews and CRM for every crew and pilot
@@jacekatalakis8316 Incidentally, this kind of culture is toxic in a lot of environments, not just piloting, and it seems East Asia has a particularly large amount of it - not that it's unknown in other parts of the world. As you say, changing culture is hard, but it can be done if enough people with some power desire to do so strongly enough - from an absolute ruler to mass protestors, there are examples in history. Doesn't mean it's not hard.
I know that it's not always recoverable due to the time taken for engines to spool up, but when GPWS and sink rate warnings are heard, pilots must take action immediately.
"Well he must have crashed then." That just gave me chills. I don't work in any industry even remotely related to Air Traffic Control, but I'll bet saying something like that over the radio isn't something to be said lightly. Damn.
there's something painfully sad about that conversation between the two controllers, the way one of them said 'he must have crashed then.' great video, as always!
What shocked me was how nonchalant that last controller's statement was. Plane crashes don't happen often, especially in Guam.
@@asmrsona3170 yes me too, I came to say the same thing. I don't know whether the person is confused or in shock, but it's the strangest response I've ever heard to something so terrible. What a tragedy all round.
@@asmrsona3170 sounded less nonchalant and more resigned to me, but I see where you’re coming from!
The one sounded happy about it
I remember seeing the aftermath footage of this crash on the TV. I was visiting my Grandmother and she liked to watch the news a lot. So when the news broke, we saw this.
In a sad way, this crash bares a lot of similarities to AVIANCA Columbia Flight 11, 13 years earlier, another case where the pilots of a Boeing B747 mismanaged a final approach and crashed onto a hillside resulting in total devastation.
Avianca 11 was indeed a Boeing 747, you are thinking of Avianca 52 which was a 707.
@LTLGamer1 No. I am referring to AVIANCA 11. Not 52. 52 ran out of fuel. 11 was a CFIT.
I know I was backing you up, I just don’t know how to tag lol
@@eliassmith4030 Just hit Reply under the relevant comment, the tag gets added automatically.
Interestingly, YT reply tagging the OP doesn't actually seem to be automatic anymore! It works in Instagram, but I find it's extremely hit-or-miss in YT, esp. if you're using an ad-blocked browser rather than the app itself?
Can be really annoying, esp. where a long comment trail exists and you're wanting to reference something further up that string... 😔
What a great coverage of another tragic event! Chloe never lets her viewers down 😊
Thank you so much for watching!
Chloe??
@@DisasterBreakdown wait are you a girl or a boy or a trans
@@LucidLewis Edit: I was wrong. That's what I get for assuming.
@@nicknick4156 yes, her name is chloe
Even with ~150 videos, your channel is criminally under-subbed! Great video this week as always Chloe!
As always, brilliantly done Chloe. This is so much better than the stuff you see on TV. I am always amazed how you (as a non pilot) are able to explain aviation technology (like glidescope, ILS , outer marker etc) with so few words and still make it very comprehensible. Keep it up!
Probably because she *is* in fact a trained pilot and went to flight school.
Just wanted to say that I saw another video on a different channel covering this crash too, but you’ve provided so much more insight into what happened and I greatly appreciate that!
Thank you for watching :)
A great description of this event. You have a good narrative speed, añd an excellent clear voice. I am so glad you dont have loud, obtrusive music in your documentaries. Congratulations and I await next Saturday’s event. 😊
Another amazing one Chloe I’m hoping to see my request one day 😊
Thank you for watching!!!
Chloe"s videos are a benchmark
I love this channel so much. Your commentary really separates yours from other aviation channels, Chloe. Another great video!
Chloe???????
@@healingandgrowth-infp4677 get a job instead of leaving replies on every comment
separates to you*.
@@healingandgrowth-infp4677Imagine being so obsessed with trans people you act like a bot. Not all women have porn star voices😂
Hi Chloe,
I so appreciate all the hard work you do in making your videos. You share so much information that helps a non-pilot like myself to understand what can and did go wrong when planes crash, or encounter problems. Thank you for all you do! All of your videos are very informative and well done.
Great content as always Chloe!
Wondering if you could cover Fine Air Flight 101 and Thai International Airways Flight 311. Two very intriguing disasters. Flight 101 actually occurred one day before this incident, making it even more spooky.
Thanks!
Chloe? Thats a man
@@healingandgrowth-infp4677 She's trans, sweatie
@@healingandgrowth-infp4677"healingandgrowth" LMFAO. change ur name
Been waiting for you to cover this! I was born and raised on Guam, and I remember this crash happened on the first day of school. My mom knew people on the plane.
So instead of giving him a longer flight that might have had relief pilots where this pilot could get some rest they gave him a shorter flight he'd need to be more immediately attentive on. The best laid plans...
Damn this crash was the one that gave me a fear of flying as a kid. 4 days later was my first flight which got struck by lightning all lights went out and felt like we dropped. I wasn't happy flying till the mid2000s
Interesting fact :
The Guam crash led to a very notable case in South Korean Inheritance law.
In the accident, the owner of a wealthy business died along with the other members of the family - all except for the lone son-in-law who had remian in Seoul to tend to company issues. So the question arises : Who has the right to the inheritance?
In Korean inheritance law (in case where the will is non-existent), sons or daughters in-law are usually the last in line. So, if any direct member of the family survived for any single second after the crash, then the son-in-law is automatically removed from the list. Whoosh.
However, there is a very interesting tidbit of a clause : In case where the sequence of death is chronologically close and the evidence of such sequence is extremely hard to find, the dead are legally seen to have perished simultaneously. In this case, the son-in-law is the sole heritor of the family wealth.
The South Korean Supreme Court, in the end, ruled in favor of the simultaneous perish clause. The son-in-law got the inheritance, and legally, he was the winner.... But still, the loss would have been unimaginable. I suppose.
Disaster Breakdown, Plainly Difficult and no doubt various others uploading tonight has totally made TV obsolete for me. 😂😂😂 Good stuff!
Same here!
You make great documentaries and I really appreciate your weekly videos
Switching off any landing aids at night, but more especially if bad weather is forecasted, was sheer lunacy. You'd think if so, the airport should have been closed down temporarily until better weather, in the very least.
Amazing video! Keep it up, Chloe!! 💪❤️
I've been to that site... a very sobering place indeed.
Well done, thank you.
Thank you for the explanation about the markers. I'd heard the term Outer Marker used scores of times but never knew what it was.
Excellent, understandable information. Very well produced. Thank you.
Great video like always. Thank you, Chloe
An interesting fact about Korean Air Flight 801. Was that this flight was actually supposed to be operated by an Airbus A330 but due to demands it was switched to the Boeing 747-300
Also what makes this even tragic was that this accident occurred just one day before what could've been a catastrophic accident in Miami, Fine Air Cargo Flight 101. From Miami to the Dominican Republic crashed on takeoff. Which killed all 3 pilots, security guard onboard and one person on the ground. The plane was a DC-8 I believe the -61F or the -71F version registered as N27UA (Note: it was originally supposed to be that this flight was to be served by N30UA but was switched last minute like in this accident) But I do want to see Dan-Air 1903 and 1008 first before this one.
This definitely was a sad crash and could've been prevented. May the victims rest in peace.
Yes I saw that there was an accident the day after in Florida. I'll get round to that one no doubt at some point this year
sometimes crashes happen days apart. Helios 522 and West Caribbean 708 crashed two days apart in August 2005, and In March 1966, Canadian Pacific Flight 402 crashed the day before BOAC flight 911 in the same city.
@@AntiAntiVaxxer2008 Oh should I say the worst of them all was Continental Express Flight 2574 which happened on the exact day that 9/11 occurred. But 10 years back. September 11th, 1991.
You have the most soothing and wonderful voice.
Thank you for covering this tragedy.
You are rapidly becoming one of my favourite channels.
This famous disaster is well-documented in Malcom Gladwell's excellent book, "Outliers," which details transmitter- and receiver-oriented languages. Well worth the read, especially if you're interested in this particular incident; while sleepiness was a contributing factor, cultural/lingual mechanisms may have had far more to do with the accident.
Korean air had a spate of disasters around this time, to the point where it was realized it wasn't sleepiness, but how the Korean language is oriented, that was causing problems. In fact, Korean air hired an ex-Delta chief, David Greenberg, to re-do their systems, and the first step was making all on-board communications in English, already the "international language of aviation." You mentioned that they drastically improved their record, but that is how.
outliers is not a great book, the podcast if books could kill did an episode about it
@@feralcatgirl Not great based on what? You read it? Or some podcast you shill for hated it, and since they said it was bad, it was bad?
Irrespective of your trifling contribution here, the section in the book on this particular incident is insightful, a stark photonegative of your banal comment.
@@Guts318 He faked the conversation in the cabin.
Fantastic coverage! I'm begging you to make a video on Mexicana flight 940.
Well, do you have time to cover A380 engine blowouts like Qantas 32 or AF66?
Nice video, they are beginning to hit their stride and I feel your content is getting better with time. I like the touch of annotating when you are stating you opinion vs. fact.
Oh I still love your channel. Your voice work and reading is top as-well, crystal clear and a comfortable pace ! 👍🏻
I flew on a Continental 767 into Guam. It was an interesting landing. I felt we were always close to hitting the hills.
Im so glad i found u agsin chloe after getting new ph i just want to say i could listen to u all day thank u❤
Another great video, chloe
Nice video ❤and you are a underrated channel
This video is extremely well done. Thanks!!!
Man I love your videos and always gets inspired
Great video as always
I remember watching this on Air Crash Investigation and there was also another accident with Korean Airlines that happened in the UK BUT it was with a Cargo Plane and the accident that destroyed the reputation of the airline from the episode bad attitude
Nice work
Thanks.
Well done, thank you!
Excellent video with accurate technical description. Im a former commercial pilot. Thanks.
That was a great video, can’t wait until next Saturday
RIP to the passengers and crew who died in this accident. Nice video as always!
I've wanted this video for a while 😯What a tragic incident !
This one is up there with the crashes that bum me out the most. Thank you for the video, Chloe. Great job, as always!
Thanks for watching!
A "From the hip" hypothesis for what happened here, in search of critique.:
1) The pilot was known as very serious and strict when it came to preparation, but was very sleepy. This (in my opinion) can result in the brain defaulting to "known" uniform values/details that can be reliably assumed to be in place. It's just too much mental effort to do anything obsessive without these shortcuts.
1.1) The co-pilots repeatedly reminded the Captain that he was screwing up, even if they were limiting their words to avoid the appearance of lecturing the boss.
2) The "NIMITZ VOR" was non-standard, in that it was also the DME transmitter, which is normally placed at the airport.
3) The crash photographs show the VOR antenna array so close to the plane at rest, that it's at least possible that the pilot attempted to land at the VOR, confusing it with the uniform condition of "DME is placed at airport".
4) The operating principal, and frequencies used in both a Glideslope and VOR are very similar, in that they use the same radio band, and radio wave phase angles to determine an accurate direction from the receiver (on the plane) to the transmitter (on the ground).
5) Due to humid, salty air, in the woods, on a mineral-rich mountain, with birds (shitting wherever they roost, and roosting above things, such as on antennas and their structures), a form of common pest to radio operations could have been made. It's in the form of a "diode" due to the electrical connection between dissimilar conductors, and it can cause all manner of mayhem to a radio system as it pretty much results in additional signals that are related to the desired signal, but are electrically malformed, and this corrupts the desired signal, preventing it from being received propperly.
6) This effect, or interference between the VOR and Glideslope due to this effect, may have been why one of the two was tagged out at the time.
7) The similarity of the VOR and Glideslope in function, combined with the spurious transmissions from one of these environmental galvanic diode junctions close to the radiating elements of the VOR, and the eagerness for the Glideslope to find and track a week signal as its one job, caused it to lock onto the spurious signals of the VOR.
Result: Glideslope and VOR were not functioning correctly because of a galvanic diode, caused by environmental effects of outdoor radios, and it was causing disruption in the Glideslope receives in aircraft. A troubleshooting decision to shut down the system with unresolved complaints (the Glideslope Transmitter) left only the Non-Standard VOR, with its 3mile DME offset, and yet-un-diagnosed spurious signal transmissions. Captain with OCD traits is too tired to thoroughly double-check his work, and falls back to his underlying set of (self)standardized rules, that a DME is at the airport. All pilots must substitute some mental reasoning for the lack of visual indication of the runway lights, and in the rain, there is an urge to keep going until you see the lights, if you are convinced that they are there. The pilot followed this reasoning all the way into the VOR antenna site. Being that there are plethora reasons for putting 100% of the blame on the pilots and their airline, nobody bothered to follow up with the NTSC and officially amend the report with what fault was corrected with the Glideslope system, and for litigation reasons, the airport has determined that nobody really needs to know that sort of thing... That, or the crash knocked loose the bird poo, or corroded bolt that set this chain of events into motion, and it may be some intermittent "Ghost" in the machine at that airport to this day... Substituting superstition and urban legend for a repair that could save the next tired jet crew.
The so-called “Rusty Bolt Effect”. Confusing the VOR frequency with the ILS localizer has been involved in other accidents.
The localizer and glideslope are actually a paired set of frequencies. The localizers operate between the VHF 108.100 MHz and 111.950 MHz, with paired glideslope frequencies in the UHF 329.150 MHz - 335.000 MHz range. When you tune the localizer frequency, the aircraft’s radio automatically also tunes the correct associated glideslope frequency.
Google “ILS HFUnderground” for a list of the ILS VHF / UHF glide slope and localizer frequencies.
The glideslope frequency is *never* the third harmonic of the localizer.
However, the glideslope system operates within the 225 MHz - 400 MHz UHF military aircraft band. In theory, the glideslope frequencies are not actually used for voice communications. However, it’s a remote possibility.
The VOR system operates in the same broader VHF NAV band 108-117.95 MHz. It’s therefore easy to tune your ILS into a VOR.
There’s a reason these radio navigation systems transmit an identifier!
The marker beacons operate on the VHF mid band frequency 75.000 MHz. The marker beacons are simple beacons, and they transmit straight up.
The DME system uses the UHF 960 MHz - 1215 MHz aeronautical radionavigation band. Don’t forget the NDB (ADF, RMI) system!
In my (limited) flight training, my instructor actually made a point of teaching me to navigate using the ADF, as well as using VOR - both combined and just navigating using the ADF. He didn’t trust GPS (and with good reason - it is very easily jammed and spoofed). Ground based radio navigation systems can also be jammed, but much more powerful jamming transmitters are usually required (compared to the low power that is required to jam GPS).
Having a long career in RF, I can verify, that birds can be bad news, because many of them like to roost in radio towers and defecate on antennae. In the Deep South of the US, buzzards are a particular nuance. They are large, so produce a huge volume of droppings.
What sucks is that this pilot wasn’t supposed to fly this flight. He got screwed by scheduling but that shouldn’t have cost anyone their lives.
I remember watching the Mayday episode on this and distinctly remember Barry Small discussing his observations in an interview. In addition, I felt my blood run cold when I heard the transmission between the ATC employees. Chilling and disturbing.
I really appreciate your videos. I think a video dedicated to radio navigation systems. Namely: GPS/GNSS [and the WAAS/LAAS] or “RNAV” approach, the ILS as a complete system as an approach navigation system and each part of the ILS - as you’ve touched on in this video, the VOR/VORTAC and NDB system and how they form the waypoints used to connect the modern air routes that crisscross the planet. Other topics include DME, TCAS, the transponder systems, ADS-B and so on.
I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding among the layman in regard to how all these systems work, their advantages, weaknesses/disadvantages and how they’ve interacted with other factors in many of these aviation accidents.
FWIW, Korean Airlines pilots seem to have a lot of anxiety about landing at an airport runway without a fully functional ILS (regardless of if they’re flying in IMC or visual conditions).
Keep up the good work!
its a good day when Chloe puts a new video out
When you mentioned the patrion list I think it's better, if you state "when" you see your name here, instead of saying "if" you see your name here a massive thank you to you...
Thanks for posting your videos I always watch, enjoy, and learn from them..
My dad helped clean up from this crash, he was part of the Navy and stationed on Frank Cable. The descriptions he gave on helping clean up the bodies was brutal.
All the respect from a viewer from Morocco 🇲🇦🇲🇦🇲🇦
Props to the governer who helped save people.
Just found your channel love it mary in dublin ireland👍❤️
Helllllllo everyone! Great job you guys! Hugs from Detroit!
When the governor actually comes out to the rescue operation and is recorded to save lives, you know you have a politician like no other in the country.
Very nicely done, as always. I had not heard about this crash before.
Please, please please, more railroad disasters!!!
Also, have you thought of maybe doing infrastructure and building disasters???
There are not enough creators who have your awsome combination of thoroughness and non-sensationalism.
Great documentary explaining how the accident occurred. When you allow a tired or fatigued pilot to fly, it is an accident waiting to happen. When tired, inadequate attention is paid to details which allow the aircraft to make a safe landing. I did not hear any mention of the GPWS ( ground proximity warning system) because it may not have been available on aircraft of that generation. A well produced documentary!
Interesting too that when the captain mentioned he was feeling so fatigued, there appears to have been no operational procedure in place that required the FO to immediately take over as pilot in control...
I wonder if any airlines have that in place? It seems a fairly basic precaution to have, when a colleague is so tired they're actually remarking on it?
I assume that you used a B747-200 to double for the B747-300?
yeah, the 300 model just didn't look as nice
You're Brilliant!
Thanks!
Wow! Thank you
Does anyone else think the Korean Airlines logo looks like the old Pepsi logo?
I always think of the Pepsi logo when I see the Korean Air logo, not gonna lie
CRM only works when the crew makes an effort to adhere to it. This disaster is reminiscent of pre-CRM era where questioning the captain's authority and experience was unheard of.
Thanks
Thank you so much!
Have you gather some more information on Vietnam Airlines 831 yet Chole?
Yeah I used to dry Greyhound buses and that Z monster will jump on that back real quick.
Turn the MSAW off because it's annoying. That's brilliant.
❤ love it
Thanks!
So sad may God bless all
Sleepy or not, the Captain ignored the approach plan and flew the plane straight into the ground! Unforgivable.
So incredibly sad and left me with shivers'.
The most senior and respected pilot of KLM managed to kill 577 people in March 1977 at Tenerife,egos can be a dangerous thing
I love always guessing what vid it is from the community post
Feel sad for that 11 Yr old girl. How heart breaking to have to leave your mother behind 😢😢😢😢
I can't even imagine trying to deal with that type of loss & trauma!! 😭 Especially at such a young age.
Really, really hope the airline paid for professional psychological help for these survivors, hut sadly given the era & the context, I doubt that happened...? 😔 Hope she was able to build a positive life despite that incredibly rough start.
Thanks for the great video. Could you please do MH134 soon?
It was on a Episode of Mayday
0:43 I know why this went wrong. The number 5 engine is mounted in the wrong orientation.
I admire the governor of guam for helping in the rescue operation
the ILS doesn't send out any information. It sends out 4 beams of directed radiation. 2 beam lobes for azimuth and 2 beam lobes for elevation. The beams use different frequencies. The aircraft can then detect where it is within those beams by the signal strength ratio between the two, where when they match, the aircraft is in the center, which is in turn lined up with the glide slope angle for that runway (typically 3°)
Hell yeah, this is good
It's sadder knowing people died in fire after surviving the crash 😢