Knock off the knockoffs: A plea to cassette deck manufacturers
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- *UPDATE:* As of 2021, the manufacturer of these cassette decks has switched to a different supplier for the mechanisms and motors, yielding much improved performance. See my new review of the Marantz PMD-300CP: • New 2022 Marantz PMD-3...
And according to Marcelo Inoue from the Audio Business Sales Department of
Tanashin, they have not manufactured any new cassette deck mechanisms since around 2009, and all mechanisms made since then have been unauthorized clones manufactured by other companies. But there are varying degrees of quality control of these clones; for example, "CSG" mechanisms are notably superior to "JS" mechanisms.
Also, according to Bill Petrosky from Mabuchi Motor America, Mabuchi discontinued production of their EG-series DC motors almost a decade ago (as of 2021), so any cassette deck motors made since approximately 2012 with the "Mabuchi" logo on them are counterfeits, not genuine Mabuchi motors.
![[Limbus Company - PV] Chapter.7 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VUpkXPkvoxU/mqdefault.jpg)
What's sad is seeing such names as Marantz and Alesis amongst those names. Neither was known particularly for cassette decks, but both did at least have some standards to live up to...
It's often due to a manufacturer rushing to market by outsourcing production, or licensing their name to a third party. Marantz for example licenses their name to inMusic, Inc. - so anything branded 'Marantz Professional' is never made by Marantz.
When you make high-end equipment it baffles me why you'd want to affect reputation. True, it gets the name out there - but as soon as the third party cuts corners, the name value is demolished. One of the biggest examples is Kodak, who despite having a line of consumer electronics, don't actually make any of them.
@@TechBaffle AFAIK Marantz Professional don't license their name to inMusic, they're owned by inMusic. So are Alesis and Ion. The pro audio brand was sold off separately, but Marantz's former consumer division (i.e. Marantz without the Professional) is owned by a different company, Sound United LLC.
The big disaster is that more and more technology producing companies have not any engineer or science-minded persons in the higher management. Only fast money counts, no long-term strategy for the brand, no pride or respect for the brand.
@@Silanda That would make sense why both Marantz Pro and Alesis sold the same/similar product. They both have a big following
@@luxembourger That's true. A 'good enough' attitude. Cutting corners is a good thing to them, because they feel the 'average consumer' won't notice.
The fake motors is like Mario vs. Wario, just flip the M and hey presto, instant evil... :P
the last time i remember "mabuchi motors" was the time when i took my kids toys apart in the 1970ies... Mabuchi motors everywhere: RCcar, electric construction crane, bathtub boat...
in other words: i am amazed that they still exist and had been a respectable brand
I was about to puke .... disgusting. Just use your OWN f1ck1ng BRAND !!!!!!.
@@38911bytefree They don't want to, as they obviously don't wanna drag their names through the mud
WarioWare: Mixtape Microgames
Those Mabuchi motors were set to Wumbo. That's why it has bad wow and flutter response.
I didn't think I was going to get gravitated towards learning about the workings of a cassette deck. You earned a sub!
@@STOG01 Those of us, who have interest in stuff like this are the elite! Lol.
I thought that having only Tanashins today was rock bottom. But clearly the bottom can get worse. It’s like when I found out the people actually faked crosleys
And most 'fake' Crosleys are actually using mostly the same parts.
Yeah. Apparently the official garbage just isn't garbage enough for some people.
@@tarstarkusz It has nothing to do with China. Everything is made in China and it can produce absolutely anything. From high precision and top quality aerospace and racing carbon components to cheap plastic flywheels. As stated clearly in this video, it has everything to do with the ordering company performing quality control and ensuring their products meet the standards
the moment when you realize that below the bottom of the barrel there is even worse cr*p.
Except that Crosley doesn't design or manufacture anything. They are a "lifestyle" marketing company, not an electronics company. The actual design and manufacture is done by Chinese OEMs, who sell the same record players to dozens (if not hundreds) of other companies.
This is legit audio investigative journalism. Bravo, vwestlife!
What I like most about the brand Pyle is how up front they are about their products. “Is that a piece of sh*t? Not just that, It’s a Pyle!”
Pyle of crap.
I repair vintage audio equipment and own quite a bunch of it too. I'm amazed how cheap and low-tech these modern-day units are compared to the specimens from the 1970s-90s. Even the bottom of the product line decks from those days are head and shoulders above this garbage, let alone the top of the line units.
I recently got into using decks. Got my dad's old Marantz SD-432 and also bought a Technics RS-TR262. The Technics needs repairing, but I'm not entirely sure what needs done
It's sad how far analogue electronics has fallen.
It will ALL come back ;) It already started, that's why High-End tape decks are very expensive on ebay. Vinyl also!
Even vintage cassette decks from the 1970’s and 1980’s are far better than this “Pyle” of garbage. Superscope Storyteller cassette player, all the way! So does the classroom cassette recorders like the Audiotronics and Califone. Remember the Fisher-Price cassette recorder? That was a cheap one which was aimed towards kids.
Thank you Chay-na . They suck !
*UPDATE:* According to Marcelo Inoue from the Audio Business Sales Department of Tanashin, they have not manufactured any new cassette deck mechanisms since 2009, and all mechanisms made since then have been unauthorized clones manufactured by other companies. But there are varying degrees of quality control of these clones; for example, "CSG" mechanisms are notably superior to "JS" mechanisms.
Also, according to Bill Petrosky from Mabuchi Motor America, Mabuchi discontinued production of their EG-series DC motors almost a decade ago (as of 2021), so any cassette deck motors made since approximately 2012 with the "Mabuchi" logo on them are counterfeits, not genuine Mabuchi motors.
I really wish more companies would start making decent cassette mechanisms again. There's clearly enough demand for it
At least a little bit better mechanisms that e.g sony put im their last hifi cassette decks back in the late 90s early 2000s
The Tanashin mechanism is fine -- as long as you equip it with a good-quality motor and metal flywheel.
They keep stamping the same garbage as in the 90s. The times for any sort of elaboration in the transport are over
@@vwestlifecu
there is not enough demand for cassette tapes , the nostalgics among you are supplied with old quality devices from the 70s-80s and nobody else is interested
An enterprising person might consider offering an "upgrade kit" for these cassette decks (new Mabuchi motors, metal flywheel, better belts,) to make these better machines for cassette fans. I know they won't be "Nakamichis," but at least they would be better than they are now.
It may never happen, though. I say this being that cassette tapes/decks are an old technology that were "OK" at the time (you had some high-end decks/tapes that put a lot of the cheaper domestic units to shame), but with the average frequency response of around 25Hz to 17kHz of Type-I tape ... yeah. Compared to digital recording now, they're not as great. From a nostalgic point of view (and if you grew up in the 70's and 80's when tape machines were common place), great! For recording now-a-days, no. If you still have a tape collection, fine. But, unless the wow and flutter is so bad that it's offensively audible (that is a W/F or greater than 1%), then it's not really an issue.
Well said. I just want one to replace my old Sony dual deck that still sounds about like the poorer of the 2 here even after a thorough cleaning and new belts. I'm in the band scene, and love the resurgence of simple tape trading meets, $5 tapes on merch tables at shows, etc. It's a geek out thing that's just fun and different.
Anyone 'into' cassette decks that has the skills to replace motors is probably buying a better vintage machine in the first place.
These new decks aren't even built to a high enough standard of overall quality, to even make any "upgrade kit" for them even worth it, because all of the other parts AND electronics in these new decks are of horrible quality also!
If one is actually able to work on electronics at all, and has at least basic mechanical abilities, then it's MUCH better to just go find a good quality, good brand name vintage tape deck from the 70's-90's from one of their local thriftstores for around $20 or less, and then just use that instead, replacing its drive belts IF necessary and cleaning the heads and such first.
That's how I have found ALL of my audio equipment over the years; by buying used but still decent condition "vintage" gear. If someone has even the most basic of mechanical abilities they should be able to at least clean up a vintage tape deck, (heads and such), and even replace drive belts if they are rotted or stretched out or broken, and then they would have a perfectly working cassette deck with MUCH better specs and overall sound quality and performance than any of these new pieces of garbage!
(Looking at the specs in the manual of these new decks as shown briefly in this video: a 40-8000Hz frequency response? Are you kidding me??! Lol!... A decent vintage cassette deck adds at least one more complete octave of sound to both the bass AND the treble when compared to these new decks... most likely because the quality of the tape heads are much worse in these new decks than the ones that most vintage decks had in them!)
@@AstrosElectronicsLab I can definitely hear the relatively horrible "Wow and Flutter" of that tape deck playing that music at the end of this video! It sounds all "watery" and inconsistent, especially compared to the sound quality that I'm used to hearing from the cassette decks that I have! So anything above about 0.1-0.2% W&F can be heard upon careful listening, especially anything above 0.5%, as this deck here has, as that is totally obvious, especially if ever compared to the sound quality from a good vintage cassette deck!...
A truly great vintage cassette deck using a really good quality vintage tape (like TDK for example), and especially if also using Dolby S noise reduction, (the BEST noise reduction for cassettes, btw), then you would be very hard pressed to tell the difference in sound quality between that tape playing and a CD playing the same exact song! I know because I have more than one vintage cassette deck with Dolby S noise reduction, and I have tried that sound comparison a few times over the years.
These new cassette decks are worse sounding than most cheap "boom box" style portables and "Walkman" type players were back in the "good old days", (during the 80's especially, probably the "heyday" of the cassette format, when there were the most really great cassette decks available!), (even though Dolby S noise reduction didn't come out until the 90's, so those decks could be included in the good ones too, even though the late 90's was also when the overall quality of new cassette decks really started to decline, and then after 2000, forget it, lol!), and so these brand new cassette decks nowadays are just an embarrassment to the cassette tape format as a whole!
That one cassette deck sure is a "Pyle" alright. ;)
Pyle of raw materials ready to be recycled! 😄
@@QoraxAudio An absolute "Pyle" of garbage
The Marantz cassettedeck mentioned in the video has got NOTHING to do with marantz.com.
Marantz is in no way involved with this low-end cassette-deck.
This cassette-deck is offered and on sale by marantzpro.com and therefore disgracing the name of Marantz.
SuperScope www.superscopetechnologies.com at the time didn't sell the Marantz brand rights for USA and Canada to PHILIPS, as PHILIPS had already Magnavox, Philco and Sylvania in their portfolio.
Eventually Marantz managed to have the worldwide rights under PHILIPS .
A few years later Marantz became independent again, merged with Denon and D&M decided to sell it's "Pro" and "DJ" business under licensing to InMusic (also owner of Akai Pro), as Pioneer did with its Pioneer DJ & Pro division.
Reason for all this: it's Pro and DJ divisions didn't fit in their company policy and profile (and probably didn't generate enough income).
www.marantz.com + www.denon.com = www.soundunited.com
www.marantzpro.com + www.denonpro.com + www.akaipro.com = www.inmusicbrands.com
Onkyo + Pioneer = Onkyo Home Entertainment Co. ( www.onkyo.com )
PHILIPS www.philips.com liscenced their audio business to TPV www.tvpvision.com
JVC + Kenwood = www.jvckenwood.com
www.pioneerdj.com + www.pioneerproaudio.com =
www.noritsu.co.jp
It's a simple explanation of a complex world of liscensing, name rights, acquisitions, take overs, mergings and legal rights.
I guess all this ensures that the audio companies seem to have lost their love, will and challenge to develop a new HiFi cassette recorder /player/deck 2.0 somewhere in the process. Therefore you must look at start-ups like www.wearerewind.fr or less high profile companies like Recording the Masters www.recordingthemasters.com
Ahaaha I'm still trying to understand why marantz is doing that like wtf
wow - that stinks..
But it seems like Marantz (the company) sold or long term leased their name with "Professional" on it to that shady company that owns a bunch of zombie brand names.
@@johndododoe1411 that’s exactly what’s written in the 3rd paragraph… 😉
Even, if tanashin mechanisms aren't that bad, every low end hifi cassette deck from bigger manufacturers like Sony, Pioneer and so on from the late 90s would be better and even the belts and pinchrollers are good on most of these 20-25 year old decks.
@WindowsLogic Productions I got a working 909ES Sony off ebay for 450€ plus shipping. You have to get lucky, but it's doable.
little you know, all the big Brands use Tanashin to this day.
You better *hope* the belts in a 20-25 year old Sony or Pioneer are still good, because servicing them is a nightmare! The best thing about decks that use the Tanashin mechanism is that it take you longer to open the cover than to replace the belts.
@@vwestlife, I changed the belts on a Pioneer CT-W606DR, and thought it was pretty easy. That deck is from the mid to late 90s. OLDER stuff, from the 80s, I'm guessing that's a lot harder.
@@kirkmooneyham the belts in my 1989 Sanyo dual deck still seem to be fine! Not sure if the previous owner replaced them or they're still good for another 3 years. Who knows? I've never had any issues.
I recently bought a 1992 Sony cassette deck (made in Japan) at a thrift store for $10, replaced the 4 belts for $30, and it works great. That's totally the way to go.
"Just increase the price to keep the quality" is how I feel, too. I'd rather spend a little more up front get my money's worth.
"It's possible Pyle started out using genuine Tanashin components, then switched to cheap knockoff..." No, Pyle has always meant cheap crap.
Literal Pyle of crap
I'll show myself out
@@cystonks5374 Yeah "Pyle of crap" is the real brand name, I also think that :D
A long long time ago they made some pretty good car audio stuff, manufactured in Huntington IN, im pretty sure that was all they did for a time, but like any good New York based company they decided to just start making shit and as much shit as possible for that sweet sweet profit, and now the brand is irreparably tarnished (unfortunate name doesn't help lol). Sad.
@@slightlyevolved I didn't knew that because I'm actually from Germany and we don't have this brand I think.
A Pyle of crap!
I choked on my drink when i saw that marantz ''professional'' deck, it looks like hot garbage
Yeah sad, that brands like Marantz sell such a bullshit today :(.
@@DaXande135 it's sad indeed... One of my relatives had a ancient Marrantz deck, this thing was built so well that it could probably survive being dropped from the roof of the Empire State Building.
Really sad to see what was once a decent brand become a "badge engineering" brand that Marrantz "pro" deck thar VWestlife shown probably wouldn't even last a year or so before failing irreparably.
Same. I actually like that brand, at least the old stuff they made where the quality was real because I own a Model 2225 Receiver from around 1977 myself...
@@Alexis_du_60 I have looked at the ratings on amazon of this deck.
And well, many people said that this deck has chewed up a tape when first using it and there is also a background humm when recording. Also no rec cal., metal Bias...
@@DaXande135 that's definitely a rebadged Chinese tape deck knockoff, I already had a bad feeling about it (knowing that "professional" doesn't always mean "supah dupah high quality!!!1!!" in some instances) but that's even worse than I thought.
Am I glad all my stereo components are from the late '90s and not from this decade!
But things like (AV-) Receivers and amplifiers from today made by brands like Sony, DENON, Pioneer and so on are still quite good in quality, but today's cassette decks are crap!
I have a 90s (somewhat) compact stereo but it doesn't work, it's Kenwood, with digital decks and all that. I'm not sure if It's worth to have it repaired or if I can even find someone that could do it.
I still use the speakers though, they're quite good.
These decks have been in production since at least 1991, and direct descendants with very similar styling and features have been traced back to least 1986. So these cheap cassette decks have been around for a very long time -- it's just that almost all of the better ones have long since been discontinued, leaving these as the only ones left below the $300+ TEACs and TASCAMs.
Realistic/Optimus/RadioShack SCT-86 were with genuine Tanashin mechanisms, pretty good for a mini cassette deck with separate left and right channel manual record knobs and dolby b.
@@souljastation5463 digital decks? There's no such thing in the compact cassette market, unless you're referring to DAT (which I doubt is in your stereo). The only thing I can think of you could possibly mean is a full-logic controlled mechanism (IE, soft touch buttons and the mechanism controlled by a micro controller using solenoids and servos).
Of all the tape decks I experienced (HiFi decks, boomboxes, Walkman...etc) I had an Alpine car receiver that impressed me the most...every tape I put in it played flawless forward and auto-reverse
Pyle engineers, upon building their first cassette deck: "Wow, that's some Flutter"
I was a bit of a audiophile and was quite critical of Tanashin mechanisms since I have been watching Vwestlife's channel. After Vwestlife's review of Tascam 112 MK VII, decided to get the consumer version the Teac W-1200 to replace my dead Sony TC W530 from 1986. I was quite impressed how it performed despite it having a low end Tanashin mechanism and had great implementation of Dynamic Noise Reduction. The Teac surprisingly sounds better than my tape player built into my Sony MHC G500 Mini Hifi System from 1995.
Could you try swapping the motors between the Pyle and Ion decks, just to confirm that the problem follows the motor? (I don't know if they have the same mounting holes though)
All the motor I have seen and replaced with 2 expections use the same pattern. Motor is KEY on the W&F measurement. In the 90s they cheaped the mechas as motor quality went up. Plastic flywheel werent uncommon and gave a decen playback. But this motors were made for conpanies that have been producing and refining them for 2 o 3 decades.
There's a company called Pacific Stereo selling what it claims to be the world's highest-quality replacement for Mabuchi-type motors, for $59 each. It sounds crazy, but I'm thinking of buying one and putting it into one of these decks just to see how much of an improvement it makes.
@@vwestlife Go for it, would be interesting to see the results :-)
@@vwestlife Probably the best upgade would be to bypass the power transformer and feed raw 120/240 into the deck
@@vwestlife I've seen those all over tape heads i am curious to see what an improvement it would make, btw you should make a video on testing different experiments to fix pre recorded tapes, some people say baking, replacing the shell or using 3M lubricant will work
Interesting video, thanks. It seems they'd be better off just having 1 better quality cassette mechanism instead of 2 bad ones if they want to make a cheaper deck. I can't imagine it being very often anyone wants to make tape to tape copies these days.
I always find these videos very interesting, despite not being an audiophile
The Pyle unit (which I have) still isn’t cheap. $73 is pretty expensive, but I know that’s still cheap for a HiFi component. Pyle has quality control issues. The audio quality on mine is great, almost no wow/flutter, great frequency response, but some reviews I’ve seen say otherwise. And the right door was bent when it arrived. It also had a weird issue where it wouldn’t turn off, like some sort of power supply issue where it seemed like someone was clicking the button over and over, but that fixed itself after about a day. It’s definitely got a cheap tape mech but I seem to have lucked out with mine. A weird thing I’ve noticed is that when recording the VU meters show mono audio even though it records in stereo, but it plays things back in stereo and VU meters show stereo in playback
So yeah these are a gamble
a pyle of crap :)
Yes! More like Crosley did.
Classic dadjoke 😛
I thought that instantly when I saw the name.
Next spinoff brand = krapp
Pretty much synonymous with each other. You see "Pyle" on something, look for a cringey font and prepare the dumpster for the inevitable.
Sanko makes excellent motors, almost on par with Mabuchi. Great video!
Matsushita>Mabuchi>Sankyo (IMHO)
Sanko are better but Mabuchi had better marketing director, they were everywhere! :D
@@danielepizzuele7083 Have any tests to back your claim.
Thank you for make us all aware of this.
Seems all these years I'd been misunderstanding wow as slow down and flutter as speed up.
Don’t buy new tape decks. Buy only Hi-End cassettedecks from late 80’s / early 90’s.
It's odd that finding an old cassette deck in a Salvation Army store is the way to go, rather than buying a new one....
Assuming, of course, that it's in proper working condition. I have quite a few older vintage decks, most need adjustments or repairs. Not everyone has a repair shop nearby which will work on cassette decks. Getting proper replacement parts for these nice 30-year-old decks is becoming increasingly difficult; you can't get parts direct from Nakamichi not only because they aren't made anymore, but the company as we knew really doesn't exist post-bankruptcy.
Happy to see that Walmart is at least putting "quality" (relitively) components into their decks.
Every time I see a video on the new tape mechanisms, I become more grateful that my old Technics tape deck that I recently found in my basement still works fine after being boxed up for 20+ years.
I don't even use tapes but I kept 3 of them, one from my grandparents (a PHILIPS) and two good ones (Kenwood and SONY) I found in thrift stores for €7,50 each (after googling that they were at least mid or high quality models)
I'd still recommend buying a seller-refurbished unit from the 80's to mid-90's, but the Ion deck seems decent at least.
I bought a refurbished NAD deck years ago, before prices went insane. It just blows anything else away. It sounds better than some turntables and CD players!
I would buy any bottom line JVC from mid 80s without thinking, easy to mantain, less weak points, and will outperform this gargage for years.
When cassette was in its heyday, our shop would offer the free service of setting them up for the customers, making sure they met specs and matching them to the tape type that the customer would be using. This usually meant trimming the bias and calibrating the record levels. This was critical for proper tracking of the Dolby circuitry. We would also always measure wow and flutter and speed. And honestly, even back then, there was a lot of variation between individual machines of the same model. And this was true for even the high end stuff like Nakamichi. Small variations in tolerances of a belt or a clutch will certainly have an effect on those measurements. After all, we're talking about consumer products with tolerance levels that are based on providing a part at the lowest cost. Honestly, I'm surprised those machines even do as well as you measure. They have practically no flywheel (even the lowliest mono cassette recorder from the 60's would have a diecast flywheel), and I'm sure the other parts are just as dumbed down. I can't really comment on your theory about the knockoff transports, etc., but I do know that Chinese OEM's have to be closely watched, or they will slip in a substitute part without ever telling you. I worked in the loudspeaker business for years, and saw this with my own eyes. I honestly just wish the whole cassette "revival" thing would go away. They're not reviving it, as much as they are imitating it...and rather poorly at that. All those machines you show are poor quality, and my guess is that it's a total crapshoot over whether you'll get one that meets its specs, regardless of the name on the front panel.
I wish someone would grow some balls, get some money together, and make some high-grade equipment again.
The virtual monopoly on quality tape drives would surely bring profit.
Greetings from England. Thank you for doing this video- a lot of tape fans out there are wondering if any manufacturer ( decent) will have the vision to produce a basic but decent deck, even if it does not have all the bells & whistles we love on the ' golden age' decks. By coincidence, Cassette Comeback raised this subject yesterday when he contacted a firm about producing a deck and was knocked back. Even if the Tanashin mechanism was upgraded with decent parts, then it would be a start. A subject that will run and run methinks.
I am here from Techmoan's Bush mono craplayer. Thank you for the great video!
I'd like to see one of the dual TEAC decks in a shootout with these.
Also the belts make a big difference in wow and flutter performance. I've bought those assorted belts from eBay and all of them were terrible. Ended up using them for tray/loading mechanisms.
Private Pyle was no good for the Marine Corps either.
Lol. Wasn't he honorably discharged because he got piles?
Surprise surprise surprise
funny!!!
Obi Wan Kenobi: "Your Clones are very impressive. You must be very proud."
Best meme on this channel lol
Even it happens with cheap DVD players that uses knock-offs of Mabuchi motors for the disc-reading mechanisms.
And even I remember that cheap cassette deck in past years were capable of bring you a pretty nice playback and the tape heads had a pretty well quality of playback... With Tanashin cassette decks!
Huh, I didn't know Alesis made a cheap cassette deck like that, I know them as a manufacturer of high-end audio equipment. Seems odd they'd put their name on something like that.
Like Marantz.
Yeah sadly, those 2 brands put their name on such a bullshit.
Chinese companies bought the names of a lot of good brands, then stuck them on crap like this.
Alesis, ION, the the "Professional" division of Marantz are all owned by the same company (InMusic Brands), so that's why they're all selling these cassette decks.
@@vwestlife Same with Denon too....they were/are a respectable audio company, but looks like they have just registered a name with the word professional after it....I wonder how true the info on this page is....is it really a company in the USA? www.inmusicbrands.com/about
And how do we get these companies to REALLY listen?
by not byuing their crap
@@s.g.3042 That I can do.
I have an ion tape2pc, got it at goodwill for 7 bucks, it was basically in brand new condition, no dust, perfectly clean, extremely lightly used. It's a pos. Deck 1 will only play on the right channel (probably why it was donated). Deck 2 sounds okay for what it is I guess. But the playback speed is not adjustable! No pot on the motor, and all pots on the board are not adjustable. Deck 2 played way too fast, like 3%-4% or something, I can't remember exactly. The way I adjusted it was to put a belt in that was too tight, got it within .35%-.5% accuracy. But it REEKS. There is some type of adhesive that I swear makes you lightheaded with the top off, and with the top on you can still smell it once you know what the smell is. Needless to say it's packed up, it was junk anyway.
One would think a top-line manufacturer like Sony would licence Dolby and make on high quality cassette deck.
And at least Ferric cassettes that are Sony-Branded like the HF
IstvanN1961 Dolby won’t license its tape noise reduction any more. :(
@@tarstarkusz National Audio Company was using new old stock tape to make their cassettes. They claim to be developing a newly manufactured tape formulation, but it hasn't arrived yet.
@@tookitogo You'd think it would be pretty easy to clone without breaking the patent since you could do it digitally.
Is the patent on Dolby systems even valid anymore? I thought that stuff was supposed to expire after a certain couple of years, kind of like the Sony Trinitron shadow masks. I doubt Dolby would reapply for a patent that hasn't been in use since 2000.
OMG who buys this crap?
I am trying to sell a Kenwood dual tape deck from the later 90s for less than 20 bucks and nobody wants it. And it is 10 times better than this garbage.
No, that is a lie. Shame on you.
It's a 100 times better. 😆
Because people aren't interested in good old quality hifi anymore. And many people also think that used products are bad. Sadly
@@Richard-bq3ni Indeed
Yes, that is literally the problem. Very few people want a cassette deck in this day and age, those do want a 3 head machine. I really don't understand why they make these except perhaps to deliberately con people.
I have a Kenwood KX-W891 dual deck from 1991 that works perfectly.
I might get into cassettes after I collect a few more records. They dont look as cool while they are playing but they are still nice to have
You mean cassettes aren't as cool when playing? You don't sit there watching the reels spin around while the tape plays with the take up reel getting progressively bigger like I used to? Wow!
@@AstrosElectronicsLab I can feel your nostalgia 😂 that's awesome
Loved this. It is so important these days in the age of throw away or anything but bang for your buck to take in advice from those who know their stuff. It can save SOOOOO much money and frustration. You highlight the main issue which is how much cheap and nasty tat there is around AND worse still how much is COPIED to look like other gear that has a reputation for high quality or at least 'quality' ? My biggest issue with tape units over the decades has been the way manufacturers back then did not supply a spare belt replacement kit or at least offer one. At one stage here in the UK I think we had the parts guarantee laws that told manufacturers and suppliers that they had to have parts available for sold items for up to 5 years after the item was sold. There are a lot of older units about, I have a Technics and a Marantz unit DUAL cassette with dolby and and and (Oh a nice led display dual channel with a multitude of different cassette formats for record / playback AND quality well built cassette drive units) BUT again replacing belts et can be a real headache. Certainly the music centres mass produced and similar hi fi stacks were thrown out or sold cheap cos the belts had stretched or were worn out? YET the systems themselves were really good re the actual sound quality, speaker units et So I get a little annoyed when I think back on the manufacturers promoting which face it they did to get extra sales, especially new gear et the throwaway society. BUT of course as they did that, they needed to bolster the money in their back pockets at the expense of the consumer? So cut costs, build quality and sell it for the same or more? AND it's getting worse. 👀
"Maybe it's Wabuchi instead of Mabuchi?"
No, clearly it's Wumbo...
It actually stands for "Weizhen." That motor was made by "Shenzhen Weizhen Motor co.,ltd."
My two fave techies, you and Techmoan! Based on your thorough review of the Tascam CD-A580, and it's twin sister, the Teac AD-850. I had been in search of a really good cassette deck for a while since my once glorious 1980 Akai 702DII deck could not be successfully resuscitated after two professional repair attempts. As I commented on that video, I purchased the Teac deck directly from the company at a very nice "open box" discount on eBay. It came fully sealed and never opened! I am so pleased with it's all-around performance since receiving it early May this year. Although you do a test and surgery on the Tascam machine, you did not note the motors and mechanisms on either as you did here. Since I do not wish to ruin my warranty, would you please? It'd be interesting to see! Thanks for your in depth looks and comments.
The TEAC and TASCAM decks use real Tanashin mechanisms with metal flywheels and TRW motors.
There is a significant record market, so decent equipment is still being made. Cassettes today are very much a super-fringe market, so there is no motivation to make decent cassette decks. The cassette enthusiast market is microscopic.
Which is why today's new release cassettes are instant collector's items.
Cassettes have an inherent quality limit that required herculean effort to produce even decent quality audio. That effort was made by a few brands in the 1980s when competing against early audio CDs. Since then, the effort has been abandoned and we only have different levels of bad quality, some sold under zombies of once respected brands.
Or just buy a 40-year-old high end deck off of Ebay and it'll work a million times better than any new deck.
Great video. I’m avoiding any cassette deck made in the last 20 years, but regardless, this was very informative and eye-opening.
I was just looking up the history of Marantz and didn't realize it was purchased by Denon by a holding group. Now it is owned by Sound United LLC. Another holdings group. Also looks like they do Polk audio too. Now I can't say much about wanting to group everything into one Holding company. Some of them did really good and turned things around. But most as we know are just in it to cut corners and make the most profit. Sigh. One more thing I just found. They tried to Purchase Onkyo but pulled out. Onkyo also includes Pioneer elite and one other brand.
idahofur InMusic Group bought many struggling, bankrupt, consumer and similar music companies such as Alesis, Denon, Akai, Marantz, Numark, Stanton, Ion...
Denon/Marantz (D&M Holdings) isn't bad. It's the new version of "Marantz Professional" that has become a low-cost brand. ION is part of the same group.
What an excellent review of these modern tape decks...thank you for the thoroughness of your reviews!!
This is a great comparison. The consumer is not going to know the difference in quality of internal components when they appear very similar.
Actual buyer doesn not even know what Mabuchi or tanashin is !!!!!!. Probably a Milenial. Just pust the ASUS logo on the motor ... it is the same !!!. Why they went into trouble of facking a motor that has not been in production for 20 years !!!!!
I've been searching for official test tapes for well over a decade. Is that Teac test tape something you lucked into, something you picked up from your work as cassettes were phased out, or did you pay the full (expensive) asking price for it?
I do not think you need special recorded tape to check wow and flatter. What you need is stable source of 1KHz signal, that you record with your tape recorder on blank tape, and then you play that tape on that recorder and measure the wow and flatter meter. Because it is random or pseudo random the measurement should be valid. As for the source of signal, well you can search on net or app for your phone, there are a lot of apps to generate sinewave. Your phone usually will generate very height stability signal. The issue is where to get cheap wow fatter meter or better yet app for the phone or PC.
@@miroslawkaras7710 This issue with this method is having two passes, one for recording and the other for playback. The tapes created for wow and flutter measurement have exceptionally low native wow and flutter.
@@miroslawkaras7710 the recording and playback both will introduce wow and flutter, so the measured peak would be twice the actual (if recorded and played on the same deck).
@@UtkarshAmitabhSrivastava Double? So, couldn't you just divide the value in half and then subtract the result when you measure wow and flutter on another deck?
@@UtkarshAmitabhSrivastava In theory you absolutely correct, however that will be very unusual that initial recording phase and amplitude will sink exactly to the distortion made by tape recorder even very on very good tape recorder. The frequency of incident for sure will double. Eve if it true that the distortion double, you could divide the number by 2.. Another point is using master prerecorded tape assume that your future source will be only prerecorded tape (assuming master quality). I most cases you will use the same tape recorder to record and play, so as you said it will double the the distortion and this is true real life performance for this recorder. The advantage is that you do not need prerecorded master tape, and you still could estimate quality of the tape recorded. The master tape might be more important for real tape speed adjustment, if the music tapes are prerecorded on different recorders, not that important if same recorder is use., I do not have tape recorder any more unfortunately to try that. I wonder how it will work in practice. May somebody can try that and post what they see.
This makes me wonder if there wouldn't be a cottage market for a new high-grade tape mechanism. It could even start by using parts from a Tanashin mechanism just for the structural assembly. Don't try for miniaturization, just go with a large, heavy flywheel and a decent motor to keep the tape moving at a rock solid rate. You could attach the flywheel directly to the capstan with a clutch to engage and disengage instead of a belt. Maybe replace the capstan and pinch roller with custom-engineered parts. The unit would be *large* but provide good quality. If you're willing to sacrifice an all-analog path, you could even include a digital processor to implement Dolby B and C in software since the patents are long expired, and ADCs that easily exceed the capabilities of Type I tape are dirt cheap.
After watching this video I was surprised to see that my modern Victrola boombox has one of these knockoff mechanisms with a plastic flywheel, and with what appears to be a knockoff Mabuchi motor. The boombox sells for over $100.
Thanks for the info!
Now we've got to get dolby to start making class S noise reduction chips again... or at least get some Chinese company to make a semi-decent knock-offs...
@@passatb6break ehm nope...educate yourself, I use professional dbx gear, but their consumer grade NR back then was suboptimal. Dolby S was the onlybiable solution in the consumer market. Not dbx and not Hi-Com
@WindowsLogic Productions HX Pro + Dolby S = dream team
@@s.g.3042 Yes with those two technologies onboard even my mediocre Aiwa AD-S950 sounds bloody brilliant.
Dolby has no longer licensed their noise reduction systems since 2014, and there will probably never be sufficient demand to manufacture a clone of it, especially since virtually all of the pre-recorded cassettes sold today are not Dolby NR encoded. But there are computer programs which claim to provide a workalike to Dolby B or C decoding.
I wonder if there’s a technical reason why they couldn’t just use an off the shelf compander IC like the NE570 series or one of its many clones and compatible devices? Many analogue wireless microphone manufacturers use a variation of this to compress the audio in the transmitter then expand it in the receiver to increase dynamic range and reduce hiss. The deck could compress the audio to record it, then expand the audio on playback. I’d try it out myself if I had the time! Obviously there’d need to be a bypass switch for compatibility.
Sad to see that Hi-Fi has been reduced to this poor level of performance, no one seems interested in buying quality anymore, as long as it makes a passible sound, people will buy it.
The only way to buy a good cassette deck is to buy used, but make sure that what you buy is working, spare parts are now hard to find.
The Teac W-1200 and Tascam 222 Mk VII are reasonably good quality cassette decks, with decent quality parts, but it costs money to make a good product for a tiny amount of sales volume, so these decks cost quite a bit more than the cheaply made and cheaply priced Ion/Pyle/"Marantz Professional" units. Adjusted for inflation, the current-model Teac and Tascam decks sell for about the same price as a decent entry-level cassette deck from the late 1970s and provide a similar level of performance (which is to say, not state of the art but respectable quality).
Someone should start a service to tweak these decks - replace the motor with the highest quality ones from real Mabuchi, replace flywhjeel with something heavy, provide better separation of electronics from the PSU (vide TEAC) etc. Maybe even a better head could be installed?
Could you share what software you use to measure wow and flutter, frequencies, and such?
WFGUI by Alex Freed. Works on Windows only.
The site is currently down. Anyone know where a mirror copy is available to d/l?
@@trippmoore Here you go: www.amstereo.org/files/wfgui_8.zip
Hmm I don't think the OEMs are the only culprits. The companies that contract their services are more likely also aware of these knockoffs. A more respectable brand will surely be more involved in the process of design & manufacture. Nevertheless, it's best to buy from a brand that's known for making stuff like this (and that hasn't gone bankrupt and have its name licensed by some Chinese company - looking at you, Akai).
I don't claim to know the internal corporate workings of how these decks are made and sold. But I would at least hope that the companies putting their brand names on these decks (especially Marantz, since they are selling the most expensive version of them) would not knowingly accept knockoff and fake components to be used in them.
@@vwestlife the design of these might be a clone of a clone of a clone.. You never know with Chinese products. The original might actually be from a reputable OEM that uses decent parts and I expect reputable brands such as Marantz to do their homework.
They may have put on the metal flywheel to hide how bad that motor is.
I thought so, too. LOL
However, it just amplified the W/F factor...
@@AstrosElectronicsLab Those two mechanisms are not equal. The only way to know is to switch the metal flywheel with a plastic one. Though, that fake motor may be struggling a bit to push that little extra weight.
I hope one day they'll make a really good new tape deck again.
I bought a nakamichi cr-2 used, it was 'refurbished' so to say. But of course it broke half a year later.
Just replace the rubber pass motor loops
@@s.g.3042 the what?
Is that "Marantz Professional" the same company as the original? They have a different website and they do not cross-reference each other yet have the same logo.
I was really shocked when spotting the Marantz brand in this list!
Marantz profession is a brand owned by inMusic, along with aKai alesis ion and a bunch of others
@@CeeCeeGuitar Did the original Marantz lose some sort of trademark battle? Odd that they'd allow this. Perhaps though it's just a cash grab to sell the name with a sub-brand to protect the main product line? Still weird.
www.inmusicbrands.com/
www.soundunited.com/
The Marantz brand was bought by Philips in 1980, by Marantz Japan in 2001. In 2002 Marantz Japan and Denon merge to D+M Holding. In 2014 the Marantz Professional brand is bought by inMusic Brands, who also own Alesis, Numark, M-Audio and ION Audio among others. In 2017 D+M Holding was acquired by Sound United LLC (who is owned by DEI Holdings wno also own Polk Audio).
So in conclusion, Marantz and Marantz Professional are separate brands owned by separate corporate entities.
I have the exact similar deck made by Sonodyne. Sonodyne was a leading company who dealt in audio systems way back in 80's India.
In my deck the motor installed is an original Mabuchi Motor. And the mechanism has a stamped code on it. Interestingly my machine also has one daughter board in the region behind the record deck which contains some power regulating components.
Poor Chinese motor producer. He thought he had a good business, but now you are trying to ruin it.
I used to have the renkforce version of this deck, bought it in 2017 or early 2018 and it did have part numbers on the mechanisms and plastic flywheels but I cannot look up anything about the motors since I threw it out in spring 2019 when the recording side amplifyer started cutting out the left channel occasionally and the playback only side's playback head broke apart
swapped it for a SONY TC-K6B which plays back fine but in recording it is completely useless as on Chrome tapes it cannot record properly at all and on ferric tapes it just drops out completely sometimes. I think it might be a capacitor problem since it starts to smell really badly like old caps when running for too long (didn't bother to replace them simpliy because there are so many in there)
I think it was stored in a garden shed for a ling time, exposed to cold temperatures and moisture so that might explain it's issues... original belts are still fine tho not even particularely loose
Thanks for the info!
A tape player called Soundwave shouldn't amuse me as much as it does.
I still have the transformers Soundwave toy and it's cassette deck is much better than these, seriously!
This is NOT an official Tanashin mechanism. Quote from Kilobyte magazine 2019/2:
"But as it turned out, Tanashin
stopped manufacturing this product a while ago. Marcelo Inoue from the Audio Business Sales Department wrote in response: “Yes, our TN-21 series was a worldwide top seller cassette mechanism. But its production stopped over ten years ago. And we no longer produce any cassette mechanism ever since.”
What does top seller mean in this regard? Inoue continues: “The production of our model TN-21Z started in 1987 and finished in 2009. Total quantity produced was 146,979,000 units.”
So this makes room for the question: If Tanashin is not producing this mechanism anymore for some time now, then who does? The answer leads to China, as Inoue explains: “We definitely did not give any permission to a third company to produce our mechanisms. But there are indeed copy makers in China that might be producing similar product without any authorization.”...
The Sony CFD-S70 boombox is still using official Tanashin piano key mechanisms -- or at least someone making _exact_ duplicates of it, including the part number stamp -- on units with current production dates (of 2020). And TEAC and TASCAM are still making decks with Tanashin's solenoid-driven mechanisms, as well as that of the Toshiba Aurex boombox from 2018, which I showed in the video.
Wow!! Flutter!!
Great vid!!
I admire when youth like you care and love these equipments. I have been teaching for more than 60 years (I am old) and you are a great Professor!!!. You are from USA and we can understand you perfectly welll in Argetina, we do appreciate that. Cheers from frozen Argentina. I soshare please.
Pyle?...Pyle of Crap! Good video.
And speaking of “Pyle” of crap, I did a video demonstrating my 1970’s Superscope Storyteller portable cassette player which is a playback only unit. I got it off of eBay last week, and that was the first time I tested it with a cassette player. It came with an original box and a cassette player itself, and it runs on 4 C batteries. It works great, it plays great, and sound really good. I also tested with a Bluetooth cassette adapter, and an Updated Tape Player with an SD card inside of a cassette and it plays MP3’s on a Superscope Storyteller.
Superscope was the brand name for cassette decks, recorders, and also put out the Superscope Storyteller series on book and cassettes with 40 titles based on classic fairy tales, bible stories and Alice stories by Lewis Carroll, and it was designed for kids of all ages. I used to have the “Tom Thumb” Superscope Storyteller cassette since I was a kid, along with a few others from way back when. In case you haven’t here it is.
ruclips.net/video/gncLC2gi9SE/видео.html
Sanko was once a well-known brand of movie cameras and tape transport parts, especially motors and small meters.
would never use any of these decks even if they were free.
I go ahead and get a working 1989 Onkyo TA-2000 Cassette Deck and 1989 Onkyo DX-C300 to replace a piece of crap 2012 Panasonic SA-AK230 stereo player that doesn’t read disc anymore because quality are low compare to my 1989 Onkyo.
I don't know if this information will help, but I took a look inside my own Sony CFD-S70 (manufactured 2020-May), and it has a genuine Tanashin mech, with a metal flywheel. I don't recognize the brand of the motor, but it seems decent enough. I have a video on my channel detailing the components inside, with clear pictures of each component.
Thanks for the info!
@@vwestlife No problem bro!
I mean I guess tanashin mechanism with Mabuchi or even Sankyo with heavy flywheel can do less than 0.1% W&F.
Akai GX Forever :)
When brand new. After one month of use .. NOT ANY MORE !!!!!
It already does, if you measure in WRMS instead of DIN. See the upper number displayed when I was testing the ION deck.
@@vwestlife Yes you did. But those Tanashe crap will never beat the real stuff like Akai, Tascam or Nakamichi. It's not about the mechanism only, there's also something about the belts, the heads and the electronics that are so cheap in these decks.
@@renejansen5939
Keep your overpriced Nakamichi at home .
No one really need that .
A Yamaha KX530/KX930/KX690 can blow people away.
Their mechanism isn't complex.
That ending piece had a low hum that shook my house. Holy crap!
Hello! great video, keep it up!
I recently bought one of the QFX Rerun boomboxes (J-220BT) MFD 10TH JUNE 2020... It has exactly that same cassette mech as you say came out of a "$30 cheap boombox." Same "Mabuchi" motor and "HS" stamped on the mech. Indeed it has bad flutter, sounds a lot like your Pyle deck. Hopefully I can harvest a Sanko or real Mabuchi motor out of a late '90's deck and tell if it improves. Either way, I know the boombox is meant to be a novelty
This kinda feels like complaining about the lack of quality waterbeds today.
One thing that also may be a possibility is that it’s a genuine but used part. This is becoming increasingly common in the computer space which motherboard chipsets and graphics and it’s long been done with rare components (which is fine when they aren’t sold as NOS). If they do it en mass for chipsets which are much more complicated to remove properly then I’m sure it must happen a good bit with motors.
With the amount of e-waste out there and the number of cassette players “recycled” over the last decade I can see it as a decent possibility. Although good used should typically always perform better then new junk, I’m sure the recycling process is not kind to parts.
LOL! The "W" does not stand for "Wabuchi," It stands for "Weizhen." The full name of the company is "Shenzhen Weizhen Motor" where its based in Shenzhen, China.
Thanks for the info. But it's still obvious that they made their logo look like an upside-down Mabuchi logo!
@@vwestlife Yeah I kinda think that they intentionally ripped off their logo.
I might be wrong, but the "metal" wheel 4:46 looks like galvanized steel. If you look at the flakey pattern on it. They coat steel in zink to combat rusting, gives it that look. It would be a decent bit heavier than aluminum and/or that plastic wheel. Not sure that would have any significance, but I would be interested in how much more it weighs. also, the rubber has to go past the metal which is wider on one side in the groove than the other, meanwhile the plastic is just a same height groove
Yes, the flywheels are steel, not aluminum.
Sanko motors were also built in Nakamichi decks. Wow & Flutter were well beyond 0.10 % in the BX models. BTW DIN is a German Industry Standard. DIN 51100 is a specific standard for Audio. If a record player or recorder had less Wow & Flutter then 0.20% according this measurement standard it was considered HiFi.
A clean capstan and pinch roller is critical for good w&f performance.
Bought an older kenwood from goodwill for 3 bux and it sounds awesome. I’ve also heard the higher end single cassette decks are better then the duals.
Well, what about swapping out the motors on the Pyle deck?
More on that in a future video. I already started tinkering with it.
I here " Marantz" used to be one of the top quality HiFi audio manufacturers back in the 70s and early 80s. I had a Marantz silver series amplifier. it wasn't bad. It was from around the early 1980's. Not super powerful but had a nice clean sound.
Thanks so much for the demonstration provided at 15:00. That was a real ear torture!
You could go step further and pop off metal lids from the motors to compare what IC's they are using for speed control.
Where can we buy a high quality cassette player and converter?
From TEAC or TASCAM. I've done videos about them.
I'm glad I bought a Pioneer CTF-700 cassette recorder a few years ago. It may be 42 years old and heavy, but it still looks and sounds awesome. It will also outlast these things when it comes to reliability as well.
The problem with old decks is that the heads are worn out/have very little life left.
@@UtkarshAmitabhSrivastava Not always. My pioneer's heads show no signs of wear at all. All I had to do was change the belts and some switch cleaner and it worked perfectly.
So, what mechanism/motor combination does the current TASCAM deck have in it? The real Tanashin/Mabuchi combo, a Tanashin/Sanko combo, or knockoff stuff?
All TEAC and TASCAM decks use genuine Tanashin mechanisms with metal flywheels. My 202mkVII deck came with motors made by some company called TRW. I can't find any info on them, but at least they're not pretending to be Mabuchi!
@@vwestlife, thank you.
@@vwestlife, a company called TRW makes a lot of industrial stuff, so if it's the same one, then those might be pretty good.
Hi, interesting to watch and listen to your comments. The brand names alone are an indication that these are the 'budget' range of cassette decks. Not everyone is an audiophile and some people buy these cheap decks just as a means of listening to old tapes - without being too critical. Of course there are many top quality decks still around and the better 3-head type are always in great demand. Bottom line - you get what you pay for! I have just retired, but have worked on cassette decks for more than 50 years. During this time I specialized in cassette and open reel repairs, calibration and alignment and I still retain thousands of parts, including heads, motors and belts. I recently sold the last of a batch of combo (rec/play) heads on eBay which I had bought in Singapore in the late 90's. Interestingly, most sales went to Russia. These heads sold like wildfire! There is something special about the analogue sound of a good tape deck. I have owned many hundreds of decks, from Nakamichi to Revox, Sony, Teac, Akai and to mechanisms I have never seen before. If there is anything you would like to ask or parts you may need, then please feel free to drop me a line. Regards, Robert. RPG Electronics.
Thanks for this video! Look forward to your list of recommended stereo cassette decks on the market - when it's available. I used your recommended turntable list for my re-entry back to vinyl after +20 years.
I just bought a Pyle from Walmart that I needed ASAP for a project.. Im gonna run it into the ground until i save up for a 70s 80s vintage deck.
At 4:46 flywheel is not made of aluminum. It's obviously zinc covered steel. It's easy to recognise.