I am currently using 4 pair of speakers in stereo and two subwoofer cabinets. Each cabinet has its own eq curve and time alignment. It was such a pain to get it right. It took me weeks to set up, but the outcome is near perfect to my ears. The bass response was by far the most difficult to get right. At listening position, you can't tell the sounds is coming from any particular speaker, even if you look right at it. Friends of mine had no idea music could be so enveloping. It's so satisfying.
I'm doing this in a small home theater with 90% music use, 10% movies. Minus the subwoofers. This got me +11 dB on bass and sub-bass down to 20Hz and +5dB higher up. There was some flaming on forums. I am using DSP modes in the AVR to switch between genres of music. It is perfect for live gig recordings. I get some trippy effects on some modes. I think I get some time smearing from the tweeters - but I can disconnect those. The crossovers are at 5kHz. I guess I could add LPFs to reign in the mids.
I had done this in the past too. I had a large space too fill at my work space. I did this on a shoe string budget. It literally took years to get it near perfect. Once I did l literally had a beautiful stage in front of me 16 or so feet back into the room. The sound was spectacular. The equipment was not expensive all second hand thrift store, from freinds, curbside and dumpsters. Every thing was there to be heard ( and some new stuff I didn't know was there ) and quite loud after the shop closed if I wanted. Nothing was next to each other. I cried when it had to come down...some of the regular customers weren't happy about it either. Bottom line experiment give each set of speakers thier own amplifier don't be afraid of equalizers and cover the cinder block wall with ruff plained rail road ties. Anyway make what you have work. So now I have a set of small speakers in my basement with a pair of Bose 301series IIs ( a pair of old Advent orange fried eggs in front) sitting outside and next to them . A pair of s speakers in paint cans on the floor behind me. The first watt is very nice wherever I am with a good sound stage. Those cinder blocks are covered with red oak plywood boards in the basement.
I run 3 pairs and a small sub. Two pair of floor speakers run through the receiver's 2 zone-control pre-outs and have their own dedicated amplifiers with independent tone controls. They are strategically placed in a 270 degree arc from the front to rear corners to maximize and balance sound distribution in the room. I also have 2 high-end bookshelf speakers that are placed in the rear bookshelf at listening level height, which run from the receiver's output, and drives them nicely. These fill in the gap between the rear floor speakers and balances out the sound in the room. I never play music very loud, just at a reasonable listening volume. The effect is extraordinary. Everyone who hears it is stunned at how clear and balanced the dynamics work to influence the music. It took a good number of combinations of receiver, speakers, and amplifiers to get it just right, but it's literally the best-sounding ensemble that I've ever cobbled together. I don't think I could ever intentionally go back to a one-speaker setup after experiencing this.
I made some stereo distributed mode loudspeakers for some fun. A/B them with some elac debut 5.2’s, very different sounds. Then I ran together because why not and and loved it, perfect complements.
I had these considerations when setting up my latest and probably final incarnation of a stereo system in our retirement home(I'm 71 and have been involved with audio (non-professionally) since the late '60s). I decided to pull out the stops and build the best system I could put together. The system is a mix of old and new and is only used for Stereo/LPs, no streaming or radio which can be had on the HT next to the stereo. Turntables Thorens TD-160C with Shure V15III (New 1976) - using Project Tubebox S2 VPI Prime, 10.5" printed arm, Ortofon 2M Black 250 LVB.(2021) using the McIntosh phono. Amps McIntosh MA352 (20201) McIntosh MC275 VI (2022) on the 2nd pre-output of the MA352 Speaker Selector Niles Audio selector with volume control to balance the speakers Speakers: JBL L100 (New) Century on the MA352 output 1 (Inside pair) Klipsch Forte II -(New 1989) modified with new tweeters and x--over. The Inside pair are about 10' apart and the listening position is about 15' back. The speakers are about 3' from the wall. So far I find I prefer the mix of the 2 amps/speakers. The speakers appear to compliment each other and fill in each others shortcomings. I tried 2 subs in the system originally but have pulled them, preferring the sound without them. It's possible (more likely probable) that my ears are getting old but I am finding the sound to be exquisite. I switch back and forth to the individual speakers and keep returning to the 2 pairs. I find I can get lost in the sound (with or without bourbon) and I have not found an issue with the soundstage. Maybe I just got lucky? Maybe the laws of physics don't apply in my man-cave?
I, like you, I find that speaker pairs, from different amps, running the same stereo signal, can indeed complement each other. That’s the principle of singers who harmonize. That’s the principle of a chorus. I’ve continued to add amplifiers and speakers of a bookshelf variety to my own stereo system in a small office. I have 10 stereo pairs of bookshelf speakers and five subwoofers. By adjusting volume heights direction and the equalizers on each amp, I’ve been able to create a chorus of speakers with a distinct phantom center for vocals and a great sound stage for a single listener and a single position me while I work at my computer workstation. The sound is amazing as I continue to tweak The signals going to each pair from each separate amplifier. Most of the speakers are 20 years old purchase from thrift stores along with 20 year old amplifiers. The whole system costs very little. But I love the sound.
Hello Elliot, same here. I paired Wharfedale Opus 2-2 with vintage Technics SB 7070 for the fronts. For stereo I use a vintage Luxman L-580. The sound is sublime, they complement each other. Excellent clarity, imaging and big sound. They sound much better then each of them individually. Much more detail and no need for sub, the technics have 14 inch bass drivers.
I run my 4 speaker setup with the other 2 speakers as surround speakers, as you mentioned near the end of your video. I like it. Also, don't have to turn up the music as loud to get that "immersive" music sound and disturbing the neighbors. 😁
Good content Gene. I've tried the multiple speaker setup in my younger days with JBL L-166 bookshelf speakers. The best results I've gotten was stacking them. Two pairs, left & right each on top of each other. The impact was quite satisfying! The bass hit with much more authority & depth! It totaled four 12" woofers! If you want to feel concert bass there's no way around cheating physics. The thing with the L-166 Horizon were their mid/tweeter arrangements. They were positioned side by side in vertical. In horizontal the mid/high are better aligned, not perfect. Weird that JBL would make a bookshelf horizontal rather than the classic standard vertical ? Also weird, they weren't mirror pairs either? But stacking them helped them do a better job at producing realistic sound levels monitoring. It only made clear to step up to JBL L-150A. They were towers with two 12" woofers each. That achieved the effect in a 12" square foot print. It wasn't utopian..but it was very impressive for young ears & poprock & 70s Fusion.
@@dennisbooth7097 I think that's what happens anyway when two pairs of speakers are run at the same time ? What I do know is it drops the amps resistance to 4 ohms if the 2 pairs are 8 ohm rated ? Only high current amps can handle such low loads at good volume without distortion or meltdown..or tweeter fry from all the dirty harmonics under distortion. I went through plenty of tweeters until I figured that out ?? Only beefy receivers have anything under 4 ohms. I only attempted running parallel with power amps. I believe I 1st tried that rigging with an NAD 2200.
Back in the 70’s when I was in college, people were stacking AR 3a’s or similar, with the top speaker inverted. It’s not too dissimilar to the modern tall speakers of today.
Much to my surprise I never thought I would endorse more then on pair of L/R mains... Until I heard a pair of jamo 507a's (ran as the inside pair) and a pair of Mirage Omni 150's (ran the outside pair) the two seemed to compliment eachother and really made an amazing sound stage for all that was listened to. Now that being said don't know how that does with home theater and all only listened in stereo modes with music.
@@joeschmoe435 the same speakers will work well as long as they are equidistant to the listener or if you time align them. Otherwise, vocal clarity will suffer.
Hi,. How about if all the speakers are the same and placed or located in each corner of the room. I also use multiple amps. One drives the treble, one drive the mids and one for bass. What's your opinion on this setup. I am interested to know what you would say to this. One thing I've noticed is stereo speration is very good. It sounds very good at low volumes. This is the best sounding and realistic system I've ever built.
I am running 4 pairs of Polk Audio T-15 Bookshelf speakers from a Yamaha AS301 (60 watts per channel). The speakers are 8 Ohm impedance so I wire them in parallel so the impedance is 4 Ohms. I connect each parallel pair to the A, B speaker terminals so I can switch then from the front of the amplifer. If iset it to A+B I have 8 speakers running. I can perceive no differnce between running 4 at a time vs all 8 if I adjust the volume. I stack the speakers (on their sides) in sort of a poor mans linear array. I have a large family room with high celing. I love this set up as the amp runs cool to the touch. I cannot turn the voilume up more than half way or its too loud. I have a Polk SW-10 subwoofer (gain set at the mid point) connected to the LFE output of the Amplifier. I have connected my TV to the amp via the optical output and even though it is only in 2 channel stereo it sounds great. For example in action movies you can hear a helicopter moving across ythe sound stage and dialog is clear ( I ahev no center channel). I prefer 2 channel becuase I mainly listen to music. I paid $49.00 a pair for the T-15s, $349.00 for the Yamaha amp and $119.00 for the Subwoofer. I consider it a budget hi-fi system. I'd like to upgrade but I think I spend most of my hi-fi budget on CDs ( I have over 1500 CDs + hundreds of cassette tapes and Vinyl). Is there a simple way to determine how many watts are going to the speakers .....I tried measuring the voltage & current with a multimeter as I know Power in Watts = Voltage x Current (at least in a DC circuit). Anyhow to my ears I get a lot of enjoyment out of the system as the Yamaha brings out great detail and stereo imaging. For the price I have not been able to find anything that beats this however I am on the lookout to upgrade one day.
I run two pairs but of the exact same models purchased at the same time. I would never dream of running two pairs of different models as "audio intuition" would suggest it would be a disaster. I absolutely love my setup. I still have great imaging and soundstage PLUS massive output with very low distortion as none are working very hard.
Magnepan did listening tests with non-professional listeners where they did three channel stereo with a center channel that played L+R at half the volume (- 3 db) and for orchestral music people found it to sound more like an orchestra. In the 1930's Bell Labs published that this was the way to play orchestral music. For opera where you might not want the effect of a center channel if you want to place individual singers I turn off the center channel or play it in 5 channel if the disc has it and I use 5 channels for SACD. I have a selector switch on my center channel amplifier and I have the drivers of the 45 triodes driving an extra pair of 45 triodes the outputs of which go through one output transformer to get L+R without interfering with the stereo channels. Then I transformer couple the stereo channels to the grids of 833A radio station transmitter tubes run gently at 1000 Volts through Hammond's biggest air gapped output transformers to get enough power to use Magnepan 0.7 speakers and because the Magnepan center channel is slightly different from the stereo speakers I use a more modest GM70 triode.
Back when I was a kid, around 15 years old I did this as well but quickly discovered that no matter how you do it it’s still better with one pair alone than with dual pairs. More often than not those setups sound horrible. The last two systems I saw like this were both Klipsch. It’s like they buy the lower one and then buy a higher model but want to keep them both connected somehow. Then they get used to the wall of sound, and there’s no going back.
Seeing this gave me the idea about trying to distribute the center channel between the inner set and leaving the outer set left and right. It would seem to be a way to create a phantom center image directly in the center of the screen.
I’ve had really great results running multiple stereo speakers. Haveing a inner and outer set widened the sound stage to floating between the two speakers. No loss in positioning or clarity. Same signal to both channels. The outer set sit 3 feet farther out and two feet closer. The are Omni directional speakers so that might be helping the comb filtering
depending on my seating i can run a two set system or even a three set system. it not comb filtering uncontrolably, preserving details and having a great stereo image is a coicidence created by positioning and my room. it started when using the boombox on the wall behind my seat on my desk as back speakers for surround sound. for curriosities sake i ran both from the same 2 channel signal, which resulted in a cancelation at my seat that created binaural stereo. i now use binaural instead of surround. when moving from the desk chair to my tv seat (the wall 90° to my desk) i noticed the two speaker sets creating a correct stereo image centered on my tv, so i ran the tv speaker setup (center, sub, L-R, L-R ultrawide) in synchronization to see if it still fits, and it did. all these things combined have a better frequency response than any of the sets alone. and the image is awesome. so i now use this frankenstein wall of sound made from desktop speakers, a boombox and the tv setup as my cinema and listening system.
I dont know if i even qualify as an audiophile. I have svs ultra towers and a legit 100 watt rms yamaha integraded. It will pound your chest and the imaging is very exceptional. How do you feel about stacked speakers, one on top of another? My dad's system is 4 pioneer hpm 900s 2 stacked left and 2 stacked right, powered by an a pioneer sx1280, and 2 1000 watt subs. It sounds like your at a rock concert. Just interested in your opinion. Thanks for the video
I have a pair of 1976 Celestion 15's and a pair of Elac b5.2's. Celestion's are placed on the floor and Elac's are placed on top of the Celestion's. I'm not happy with the sound of those speakers separately, but, when I play them together, I'am. I'm sure I'm not having an ideal representation, but I like the sound they produce together: Celestion's help with the bass, Elac's with the mids and treble. I still think I want a bit more treble, but I like it. Thanks for your video. Very informative.
I run 2 pairs of speakers in my tiny living room for a different reason: the main speakers of the main amp are aimed broadsided because of the television that they happen to accompany. When listening to music lengthwise and also because of the small room dimensions, it's very easy to step out of the speakers field of sound. So I have two book shelf speakers on a mini amp aimed lengthwise and above ear level, to continue the sound when I get up from my seat, or for people standing around during a party.
I didn't know people did this with two pairs up front. Seems overkill but I must admit it looks cool lol. I like to utilize my surrounds for 2 channel music listening. I have a 5.2 setup but in my Anthem receiver I have a profile for music where I use 'all stereo' with the center off & the rear speakers at a much lower level than the fronts, you almost can't even tell they're on until you turn down the fronts. The effect is a much wider & "wrap around" stereo image. I know this is sacreligious to 2 channel purists but I find it hard to resist once I've dialed it in. It's kind of similar to the old Pro Logic 2 music type DSP's but much cleaner & fuller sounding when I compare the two modes. So with what was said about comb filtering, does this mean bipole speakers are an inherently poor concept? I just ditched some Def Tech SR9080's that seemed to have lots of comb filtering when I slightly moved my head, I could hear the highs coming & going... Failed experiment, back to monopole & happier.
Yes I think bipole are better than dipole but nothing compares to correctly placed monopole speakers with proper tuning for the room correction. Having said that, there are some situations and room layouts where bipole speakers are useful for home theater.
Can you use that set for music, or is in on 2 speakers only when you play music? You need a good algorithm that can do music on 5.1 system, the < 2008 systems just can't do that for me. some sets can do 2 speaker sets, that can be on algorithms so it sounds good
Musical harmony can happen when blending bi wireable dipole tower planar magnetic tweeter, planar midrange with cone subwoofer. Addingthe dual woofers of a typical tower box speaker (in this case a B&W and not using its cone tweet and mid range). The Dipole planars, as you know are not affected by an adjacent box speaker. I tried this today and now get fast clarity and decay in acoustic with gut punchier bass. I would never thought to do this until I watched your video. A big thanks.
I run two pairs of speakers carefully positioned vertically stacked tweeter to tweeter. I also use a tuned baffle between the tweeters. Frequency sweeps indicate the linearity is better with the two pairs than with a single pair. This configuration is based on the Advent stack principle with the baffle my contribution. Imaging does not suffer. I must point out this is a proof of concept setup using four Sony SS-CS5s.
A sweep will not necessarily pick up on lobing or comb filtering issues. It might look linear, but you're still losing information through interference and comb filtering.
I consulted an amplifier and speaker designer about all the THEORETICAL problems of what I was doing. His take was after doing dozens of designs and then building them following theory and computer modeling, he found the end result usually depended on the room and placement. The design did not necessarily predict what the result would be. In this case the pros far outweigh the cons. This was done with real world experimentation. In other words I listened to them and made changes until I got what I was looking for instead of just saying this won't work so I won't even try.
I have 4.1 setup (never found a center I liked, but that's a different discussion). This is of course 2 main and 2 rear, not side by side. If I play 2 channel it sounds great, but I feel it's fantastic in all channel stereo. Belive the setting on my pioneer is Ext.Stereo (Extended Stereo). But I have wondered if this is a loudness bias, as I do Jump back and forth. Also you didn't talk about power subs and how that could change the dynamics. I have a large record collection, and a sub feels like a must for pushing out those lower frequency. Does the source change your opinion on this?
My first major car stereo was a quadraphonic eight track. I'll never forget dark side of the moon in quad. I kept that deck until I couldn't find parts for it anymore. I even took it apart and adjusted the speed of the motor until the tracks were perfect length.. ahh the old days
Hey Gene, I know this is an older post, but just found it. You noted it would be a good addition ( having front wides) in an Atmos configuration, but in that scenario the front wides are pulled forward. What would be the problem if they were wide, but set back closer to the back wall (but with room to breath) and boosted in volume a little more (run from a separate amp via front pre-outs)? Would that potentially help the in a stereo listening mode (if for example you had a couple different types of speakers you really liked, but other-wise want to keep your setup speaker consistent for Dolby Atmos movie viewing). Or does that also create cancellation effects etc. even if both sets are toed-in directly focused toward a listener in the typical center (left to right-wise) of the room. This I would I think would at least help with A/B listening even if the B set weren’t in the perfect place for a typical Stereo listening setup. Thanks, and love the detailed “why” beyond the typical content/advice given on some other stations that you provide!
I have a different and somewhat unique use case. I like omnidirectional speakers. My first were gen1 Bose 601's (stolen in a break-in unfortunately). Currently have Ohm Walsh 5000 Talls. Also have pair of Magnepan LRS+ on order. Seeking a budget, quasi-omindirectional setup for a non-primary listening space. Current "experiment" is 3 pairs of Sony SS-CS5's ($113 per pair from Amazon) stacked one upon the other on custom tripod speaker stands to insure the middle, primary pair's tweeters are aimed directly at primary listening position with tweeter exactly at ear level. Bottom pair are aimed "out" exactly 90 degrees from primary pair (HUGE room with sidewalls 10 feet away). Top pair are inverted and aimed "in" 90 degrees from primary pair, and bouncing off 120" home theatre screen on back wall. Distance between stacks is approximately 10 feet. In summary, the "stacks" are pretty much squared up at their corners -- and held in place with some Blue Tac -- with the top and bottom speakers drivers facing in opposite directions.) Also present are a pair of SVS 1000 Pro's crossed over at 80Hz. Have only completed preliminary listening tests, but initial experience is that it sounds good -- for the money (3 x $113 = $339). Much more listening in store as summer winds down and we head into a Michigan winter. NOTE: Have purchased the GR Research upgrade for the primary, on-axis pair but have not yet had time to install.
I am running 1.5 sets of speakers from an amp with A/B channels and I definitely care about "accuracy". I have LS 50s about 7 feet off the wall with Rti A9s (woofers only) 3 feet behind and to the side. I plug the ports on all of my speaker because I need tight and accurate bass. The speakers totally disappear and present a very wide and deep layered sound stage. I have a much better system, but what I like about this set up is that I get strong bass even at lower volume with port plug in. It's like having a loudness button without degrading the signal with tone controls. The Polks are 6 dB more efficient than the LS 50s, so the bass is louder but in a good way, because I use port plugs for tight and accurate bass. I despise bloated or resonated boomy bass, but I am getting none of it in this set up. I know it's not really what you are referring too. I would not waste time setting up two pairs of mids and highs. That would be a given disaster.
If you stack your speakers instead of putting them side by side, it preserves your imaging. Combining warm speakers with bright speakers seems to give the best of both worlds. It's actually amazing.
Interesting video. Ive watched many other videos on this topic and have researched the effects of comb filtering. My experience doesn’t reflect my research. I have a substantial pair of floor standers. A couple of years ago, against all good advice I decided to try biamping those speakers, so invested in a 2nd, but different, power amp. As you can probably guess, it offered no real benefits other than a 3db gain at any given position on the preamp volume control. So, I purchased an identical pair of floor standers virtically stacked them in a Column array. So, I have a digital source connected to a DDC, connected to a DAC, connected to a preamp with 2 sets of live outputs connecting to separate and different stereo power amps. 1 of which powers the top of the stack, whilst the other powers the bottom. I don’t employ any measuring equipment other than my auditory system I don’t notice any shift in tonal balance as I walk around the room. No ‘suck out’ or reenforcement. Maybe, just maybe, a svery slight drop in high frequency presence. But that may be psycho acoustics playing tricks, because that’s what I was told to expect. My speaker stacks are 10.5 apart and my listening seat is 11.5 feet from my speakers! I can easily and swiftly switch from listening just to the bottom pair, to just the top pair, to both pairs simultaneously. The clarity, resolution, detail, neutrality, imaging and soundstage remain stable and constant. I normally listen at around 80db. With 1 set of speakers driven the dynamic swing is around 16db by. With both pairs driven, the dynamic swings widens to 24db. It has been suggested to me by other RUclipsrs that maybe, my hearing is defective. But I didn’t hear them clearly and my audiologist would challenge that. Even though the power amps are different, they both have the same, fixed gain of 26db and my preamp has unity gain. My 98 inch tv sits between my floor standers but further back and throws a tremendous soundstage using its integral speakers only. I have the added benefit that if a power amp develops a fault, or a speaker becomes defective, I still have a fully functional 2 channel system whilst repairs are on going. Enjoy the music.
I agree gene....how people don't notice this is scary...i am willing to bet those people listen more to music than movies....but i think 🤔 if they are identical now you talking,but amps does the same creating a big dynamic sound ...thats all you do id doubling the sound coming from a set of 4 identical speakers...great video
Multiple point sources of sound do more harm than good, with the exception of a carefully well designed line array. it is all about timing, phase, and arrival times. Many good videos on comb filtering, which you need to understand that to get the basics of what is going on here. Great topic, hope it helps folks.
I had a pair of B&W DM 570s and B&W DM 300s running next to each other and I thought it sounded amazing the 300's had a punchier bass and the 570's had more present treble
I have this setup where i stack a 2 way (on top is KEF sealed two way) atop of a 3 way Kef Q tech... Both are fed from my amp (that has two sets of speaker terminals) but the top speaker which is turned 90 degrees inward, is fed by a hair fine speaker wire and it creates this oddly bizzare but enjoyable wall of sound effect (both towards the normal listening position AND when u sit in between them (it feels as if you are sitting in the middle of the stage) I dont know why it happens. My friend says its just luck and agree with him but im keeping it and my two cents here is: be careful when multi-speaker listening but DO experiment and see what you get
I'm so happy that you mentioned back in the day with quadraphonic, it was in my time,4 chs playing independently,pioneer qx949a, really greatly technology at the time. Now keeping up with all the new stuff is so complicated and expensive, so much combinations WOW. These days I'm still enjoying a 5.1 Set up. My advice is to work with a budget and keep it simple. All the best.
Kinda a different subject, but I listen to all my music in multi-channel stereo and love it. 2 front, 1 center, 2 side , 2 front height. It sounds fantastic!!
Definitely underrated! Similar to how I am running my Yamaha receiver. Looking to add a back pair for essentially a 9.1 setup. Are you using a Dolby Atmos, Yamaha receiver or something else?
I listened to music like that for years. I just recently got into just listening to music with 2 channel stereo. Took a bit get used to . But now I prefer music with just 2 channels now.
Same here. Ever since purchasing a Focal center channel a year ago. Sounds great. However, I recently returned to 2.1 after recently upgrading to a new sub, a Rythmik 12FVXSE. Sounds more focused, natural & balanced to me. Just gotta figure out presets now, so I can toggle between video & music. Thing is, some music is now being recorded in Atmos 😜
I did it for years in the 90's it was my poor man's surround sound system and it worked great. I had a stereo hifi vcr and an eq which I still have and in fact I still have my equipment except for the vcr and all of it still works I no longer use 2 pairs of speakers anymore but back then when surround systems cost more than what I made I to make do with what I had. I just used this set up mainly for movies not so much for music but I did a few times and it sounded pretty good. Oh by the way I had a pair in front and a pair behind me never next to each other.
This is interesting, because I have two sets, a medium sized set of floor standers (made myself) and a set of Yamaha bookshelf speakers. When I run them together with my Rotal A11, sure there is a fuller sound, but there is also a definite quality drop in imaging, both with depth and channel separation. Even more peculiar, when I run both, there is a definite shift of sound to the left channel at my 'normal' listening position. Moving my head closer changes and even eliminates that, but there are some bad sonic aberrations happening with the mix of the 4 total speakers and my room acoustics.
I inherited a pair of Vienna Acoustics Haydn speakers and found the sound fantastic, incredibly clear. They aren't very big, but for my small office they are perfect. The only thing I wasn't happy about was that they didn't produce enough bass for my liking, so I've tried a second set of speakers and it somehow didn’t make me smile as much, so I've removed the second set, and added an Onkyo subwoofer that I've bought at a thrift store instead and after fine-tuning the subwoofer amplifier, the sound in my little office is 👌
Even when I was doing car stereo contests I found the best sound was with three sets of speakers two tweets two mids, two subs. I found, when I introduced even rear speakers, it would draw the soundstage back would even do cancellation to my subs. With six speakers, 4 in front and 2 subs in back, I was running about 141+ db, and listening to "thriller" I could plainly hear the door open in the left of stage and the person walking across the stage, then the door closing on the right. When listening to music you could point to where each musician was standing on stage,. And orchestra's were breathtaking! I even had a recording of the Saturn 5 liftoff, and it would rock the car on it's springs! Anything above 1/2 volume you couldn't light a lighter in that car, even at a standstill. Excellent video. One set of speakers wave time alignment and bunches of power was my ticket, and I have some trophies to prove it. Now I want to get my old pioneer amp going again 160 wpc with. 02 distortion.. and caps as big as beer cans... Lol
Not sure my friend, possibly. I run HDI3600 (per your other video) with some B&W CM10s , there is a small amount of distance between them, both running from the same preamp, 2 identical amps driving each pair - 2 left, 2 right, and I find they compliment each other very nicely. The HDI add to the LF, CM10 to details. I'd say having both is a net improvement from a subjective standpoint.
Just get a surround processor and turn them into discrete channels. Why ruin the sound of good speakers with comb filtering playing the same content through them?
@@Audioholics So I finally had a look in the cabinet of the 3600s - not bad, I've seen worse. Mid-grade wire, but soldered directly to terminals, somewhat disappointing to see drivers made overseas, also disappointing unbranded electrolytics on the wooders and mid-woofer, no-name MET film on tweeters, look low cost, and average cement resistors - They really could have used metal oxide stock. 8 caps total per speaker across 2 crossover boards - HF/LF. Inductors are mid-grade, but slightly better with slightly thicker gauge, better than average. I ran some cost estimates to replace with some mid-range Mundorf stuff, came to $600--700 for the pair. Thinking of maybe doing this to the 3600 later this year. Others use Mundorf stock, that says something..
@@Audioholics You know what my friend, comb filtering - I'm looking at really disappointing parts in the entire crossover network. For the price they list them at for the parts used, the more I look at it, the easier it is to get pretty disappointed. I'll be ordering the Mundorf EVOs and wire wound resistors to replace their bargain basement electrolytics and sand cast mix.. Having a closer look at the internal wiring, it's also pretty sad. No friend, bigger considerations than a little theoretical sound clash on a chart/graph.
Hi Gene, Great information. I was thinking about doing it... Do to lack of space, I must install the front speakers in the ceiling. Which are the best speakers to do this job, without having to put double speakers ? Thank you,
You could look at options from Triad that angle the baffle so the mid/tweet fire towards the listening area. There are other brands that offer motorized speakers that drop down on an angle when in use.
Hi, I'll get soon a pair of 3-way floor standing speaker to replace my bookshelves ones. What I had in mind, is place the two bookshelves left and right from my listening position but on the same line as me or almost on the same line. I can't place them really behind like in a classic quadraphonic setup. And send them audio that is only present on their respective sides (so something like negate L from R and R from L respectively), I've found a solution to do it (there are few vst plugin that are dedicated to mid-side treatment and do that), will have to fix delay, cancellation, phase issues, etc, also the room is treated, but not at all for that config, but what do you think about the idea ? I don't know what the result will be, but I think I might get a better soundstage maybe by having full L or R signal being sent from another source that is more to the right and left from my listening position. Would also have some kind of high pass filter on them to have them only reproduce signal above, maybe 300Hz, don't know yet, will have to try. (in any case, I have the hardware etc to try it, so the experiment will not really cost me anything outside of time). Thank you for this video and maybe for your answer ^^
Regarding running 2 pairs of speakers in stereo. I'm running two Klipsch 620's on the main Denon receiver but I also bi amped a 4ohm JVC running two Polk RT 35's . The Klipsch towers are 6 feet apart, then the bi amped Polk's are 3 ft farther and 1 ft forward and pointed at the main seating position . I wish I could just send you a picture. I use them both Klipsch and the Polk's in surround as well, so with the Klipsch center, it's a gentle curve in the front. (Worst room Ever! ) I love it but I haven't tried any other configurations yet.....any input? And I'm stuck against the back wall so I still have to figure out sub placement, 2 Klipsch 12 " subwoofers. But that is a different question for a different video. Any positive input is welcome.
I have an old system where I run a pair of Infinity Entra 2's floor standers with a pair of Mission 761i bookshelves sitting on top of them with my Marantz 1150 integrated amp. The Infinity are very warm and the Missions are very clear, so a great combination as far as sound tone. Clear and detailed with a fullness around it. In my room in my old house the imaging was rock-solid. You could pick out the location - horizontally, vertically, and depth of each instrument or voice. Very even volume (no peaks or lobes) and clear throughout the frequency range I could hear. In my new house, I haven't been able to get the imaging solid. I am limited in my placement options, but I've tried several things. Right now, I have the Infinitys toed in just a little and the Missions toed in a lot so that they are crossed in front of the primary listening position. It does an okay job but the Instruments or voices seem to move around as frequency changes. Still a nice listening experience - I do have to focus to notice it - and of course I don't notice it if I'm in another room working or cooking dinner. As far as comb filtering, I haven't heard any but I can't hear anything over 10khz anyway, so it might be there above that range, but I wouldn't know it.
Not needed comb effect turns into roar. In small home room the sound field needs point source , an accurate sound field need less drivers ,and I use a ribbon tweeter, subwoofer and use duo 2 in open baffle on top top and 8in carbon fiber woofer 70hz and cut the 1k to 5k hz and it sounds great, my subs are 70hz down. Omg the duodayton18s play the room and do not give listener fatigue. I dont build anymore 50 year experience in car an home an clubs. Retired and blind crippled but not crazy, tinnitus and 13,000hz audible to me . ❤ your comments
Cool video. I just figured this out for myself when I added a pair of Focal chorus 807v to my system. The speakers sound great but I like them played by themselves with a subwoofers ×2 . I tried them as front presence channels and running the Polk r 200s as my mains but it didn't sound right.
What if you STACK two different types of speakers in 2.0 stereo setup? Use two amps, boost highs on top, lows on bottom, bi-amping the system? I have done this many times and got sound greater than the sum of all parts. Any thoughts on this setup regarding interference patterns? Thanks.
Any time you run multiple speakers playing the same signal without proper time delay or processing, you're causing combing effects. Flipping and stacking is an equally bad idea: ruclips.net/video/r84ynSuFt6g/видео.html
I've briefly thought 'what if I put some bookshelf speakers on top of those floorstanders, maybe I'll try it one day' then never bothered or given it any further thought... Now I know why not to bother or give it any more thought! Thanks Gene
Hi, I have one pair of Monitor Audio silver 6 floorstander speakers on the outside of a pair of Quad Esl63 electrostatic speakers. Looking from the left- 1 Monitor Audio cabinet then 1 electrostatic speaker, then TV table with 49inch TV, then 1 electrostatic speaker and finally 1 Monitor Audio cabinet speaker. I swap the speaker pairs over occasionally but I have never had both pairs of speakers running at the same time. The Quad speakers sound totally different from the Monitor Audio speakers ,more detailed but with less bass. Don't think I will ever play music through both pairs at the same time. My amplifier only has one set of speaker outputs and it's not much hassle to swap the cables from one pair to the other, especially with banana plugs on the end of each cable. Don't want to risk damaging my classic Roksan Kandy KA1 MK3 amplifier. Plus, most music has been mastered for 2 channel stereo and not 4 channel stereo. Okay, you can get 5.1 sound now but that's for surround sound systems.
I agree 100%. I’ve actually had my Klipsch Heresy beside my La Scala’s and when the Heresys were playing you thought the La Scala’s were playing. So not a good idea.
You get lobing no matter what you do. A center channel causes lobing, a subwoofer crossing over to the main L & R fronts causes lobing, surround channels cause lobing. The biggest issue for most people isn't the type of lobing detected in a perfect test room, it's what's happening in YOUR room. For the most part, reflections will be the big problem. USE TWO SETS OF SPEAKERS IF YOU WANT TO and don't worry about lobing. I've done it several times. If you have the ability to vary the loudness and equalization for each pair, you can play to their strengths. You might be surprised at how much you can approach what sounds like a near field listening experience. Mostly though, IT'S JUST FUN, and you could be very happily surprised.
I run two pairs of Klipsch kg 5.5 fronts speakers but got them to sound better if I put them in stacked position and the top pair upside down so the horns are close together and I love it for now but I always try different things so until a new idea comes along I'll leave them like that .
Haha, very timely video. I finally just got my Thiel 2.2's back from my ex after not seeing them for 6 years, but haven't hooked them up for the reasons you bring up. I have a pair of Focal Kanta No 2's I could set them next to - but the only thing I'd be accomplishing is to make sure they're still fully functional! But I wouldn't be able to evaluate them against the Focal's in any meaningful way. Each speaker needs to have a very different positioning for optimum soundstage and response. One or the other would necessarily suffer. Unless I can employ the services of a friend or two - they'll remain in their boxes until I do my secondary setup in the den.
I agree with you, but I had DCM Time Window speakers that had two tweeters and two woofers in the same enclosure that were at an angle to each other that sounded and imaged very good, with those speakers the trick was to keep them away from the walls.
Decades ago, people would buy a pair of Advent speakers (now referred to as OLA's, or Old Large Advents) and fall in love with them. They would then buy a second pair and stack them vertically, with the woofers together (bottom speaker upside-down). This gave 3-6 dB more output, a tad more bass extension, and less distortion for a given SPL. But again, I emphasize, these were stacked speakers, not side-by-side.
Good video Gene, I enjoyed it. My only comment would be I find the use of four speakers up front a terrible waste when they could be used to expand the system into a multich rig. For music there's no need to have a center channel and running 5.1 source in a quad playback system will work just fine. I was confused by your comment against using towers for rear channels since bookshelf's are always placed on ear level stands anyway? What's the difference? cent' anni. Sal1950
Gene, I’d like to see you review the Halo Spring 3 KTE and or the Halo May KTE. These are R2R DACs and your review would be worth hearing. I expect honest and open reviewing from you. Some may not agree, but it will be fact based. The truth isn’t guaranteed to be pretty.
I was an authorized Hi-Fi audio tech I worked at a high-end store in the late seventies I bought a pair of JBL L150s and then a pair of JBL 4311s. I currently listen to a Marantz receiver although I've got Phase Linear and SAE systems too normally I just listen to the 4311s they're at perfect listening height sitting on top of the l150s when I get pissed off I'll turn on the l150s too
I have a setup that will make you cringe. I have 2 old school 3 ways with 12" woofers in front and 2 bookshelf speakers on stands in the rear. I have an 8" ported sub behind my couch with the port pointed at the back of the couch. The bookshelf speakers don't have the same sensitivity as the big speakers so they play at a slightly lower volume. I have reversed the left/right signal so the rear speakers are right/left. This adds another dimension to the sound. I don't listen to everything this way but use this most of the time. There is no question that my system is not in the same category as those you and your followers are used to but I love it and isn't that what counts? I hope I don't get too much abuse for admitting this.
Gene what about stacking speakers (they never sounded good side bey side) But My older DLK 1 1/2 speaker were Stacked sounded better than just one, back in those day imaging was not yet invented or designed in the speaker and by stacking the speakers actually had better separation and imaging, Same w the DLK 2 and 3 (Stacking height was 49" to 53")
Very good analysis! I wondered how it would be in a Studio Room where it is common to have Near-field , Mid-fields and Main Monitors side by side? Your thoughts
A Anechoic chamber is great for tests but not for listening , adjust your home/car to taste not just specifications. All ears are sorta different. You can hear the room by covering one ear for test. Listen and learn My brother/sister audiophiles
I run 2 pair simultaneously and it’s fantastic. Go figure I got the idea from my car 30 years ago. Seems like a no brainer. Park yourself in the middle and enjoy the X-Factor
When I see two speaker pairs like that I assume the person is running just one pair sometimes and the other pair other times. They might have some particular reason to run one pair like they have two very efficient speakers and run off a low wattage SET amp and then a big pair that run on a high power amp. But if I were doing that I would put the speakers: AB AB not like shown at 3:00 which is AB BA because you'd think the separation for each pair should be the same. Depending on which pair is in use you'd sit a bit to the left or right
Hi , great informative video, I use 2 sets of speakers but mine front and rear of the room with a and b on Rotel A 11 , so can either front on or rear on , or both together, I recently replaced my b&w 602 s3 for 606 s2 , but I still like my old speakers so that why I have this set up. Totally agree with your findings having 2 sets of speakers side by side . Regards mark
I made it. I have 4 Sony speakers (okay, I already know that Sony doesn't serve as a reference in the audiophile world) and each pair does left and right. One on top of the other. Each pair has the original amplifier, exactly the same model. The signal source is a dvd player. They are interconnected by Y audio cable. All audio cables are shielded. I got a powerful soundstage, but the sound was muffled. The solution was to add a crossover. Result: I hear a powerful, clean sound, dry and defined bass sounds. Excellent for rock/pop.
You have taken exempels for drivning two different paires, but what about pairing two paire of smål speakers of the same model with the same preamp that has got two identical output to two identical poweramps in stereo? Exempel: RME + 2* Rotel RB-1552 + 2* paire of Dali Rubicon2 in a d'appolito position W. H. R
Perhaps the photos illustrate one pair playing as part of a home theater setup and one set which is used when they play stereo music. I concede the wide baffle is a problem but with how loud people play this stuff they probably couldn’t hear anything outside of 50 - 2000 hz anyway.
I was hoping you were going to talk more about how best to set up two sets of speakers for A-B testing. Of course it is better to not have two sets of speakers next to each other, even if only one pair is playing at a time, for a long-term setup. But say you are demoing a new pair and want to switch on the fly with your current pair for a comparison before you complete your purchase (like you did with the RTJs and RBHs.) Was your setup ideal, or would something else have been better for A-B testing? Like could you have theoretically spaced the speakers a little further apart from each other? Or perhaps could you have put right-Speaker-A on the outside and right-Speaker-B on the inside but set it up vice versa on the left so that each stereo pair were equadistant from their mates (like I see some retailers do)?
I believe this is all done for looks as you'll notice the shiny copper k lips h woofers everywhere. Some folks are just more concerned with looks which is understandable but I don't think they really care much about imaging or soundstage vs lots of shiny speakers.
Most audio here is on ambient settings, Stereo source or ATMOS stream, just emulating the source on the 12 speakers i own. I can switch to front speakers for all sources. My front channel are just 2 very large custom JAMO speaker, for if i need that old stereo sound, only 2 with 6 meters between them
Absolutely agree with that analysis. My question is this. Years ago some audiophiles stacked one on top of the other identical large advent speakers in discrete stereo pairs in 2 channel. Would your point still hold true about loss of stereo imaging and high frequency cancelation or would it enhance the sound accuracy?
I do have two pairs of speakers connected to my amp but I never run them together, 1 is some big focal Towers , the other pair is some monitor Audio bookshelves set on top of the focal Towers , one would argue that it's really bad idea but they never play together, the focals is for daytime listening and the monitor audios for evening listening as in the UK we have small flats with really bad sound insulation, they both run with room correction and I did once try to listen to music with all the speaker on and although it is definitely louder , the sound accuracy and the sound stage was horrendous but I had to try to realise that running two pairs of speakers together is a really really bad idea if you do like accuracy .
So I've got a pair if technics SB-CL50 bookshelf speakers, and sat the moment, on top of a customized pair of Sony towers. Nothing used in the sony speaker is original, its definitely all much better quality, but the woofer is still un crossed over, but I dont hear any audible break up at its higher ranges. The technics have like a 3rd order crossover, forgive me I dont remember exactly what all the crossovers are, but I know it's the type that does like 18db per octave and I've heard they also can cause phase to change with frequency, so it's not easy to mate it up with more ordinary crossover type speakers. I also have the bookshelfs on top set up straight ahead, whilst the towers are slightly towed in. I know theres probably some reflections from the top of the towers but from what I hear they mesh well in this room, which is by no means ideal. The woofers are like 2 ft away and the tweeters are slightly offset and about 12 inches away. I know there may be some unwanted audio interference, but it may be possible that the phase thing from the technics crossover might actually be helping out in this scenario. It seems the highs are ok, I can hear it to 16khz, but it's the same with only one pair and my ear right next to the tweeter, so that might be something along the way in the proccessing.. I know my phone I could hear to about 18khz, and it fades out but still feel "pressure" from it up to 22.5khz. My main reciever is a pioneer vsx-815, in case theres some numbers to support that or just that in its age, it might have lost some high frequency capabilities. My custom towers have gold wood GW-12PC/8 12s, 1 per tower, and some dayton audio tweeters, with the caps from some others I swapped in, that definitely had some distortion(but they were very loud, and good for party speakers back then) I used to need the bookshelfs to fill in the mids as I had some pioneer car subwoofers and the aforementioned distorting tweeters in it. Now I dont need them, but I from what I've listened to maybe because I have one slightly towed in and one straight, it seems to sound quite good. I was supposed to have already built a new pair of towers using two of those gold wood woofers in each tower, and some audiopipe tweeters that some may scoff at for being a car audio brand. But they are 4 ohms, can absolutely handle alot of power for tweeters, and at least in the past, they both sounded more crisp and clean than even these daytons sound, although once more recently, I heard a discrepancy between the pair. All on their own even.. might be the caps being a bit older now, or maybe it was just the specific music I had been playing had weaker highs to the right.., I havent even done more testing since, but obviously when I make them I will be retesting, and if there is definitely discrepancy, I'll swap the caps out, if it's still uneven, I'll use something else. I'll probably still set those bookshelfs on top, they'll be on much less power, and I may even use the mounting arms that I got with the speakers to mount them up and farther away.. though I obviously dont have atmos. If I do that i may get a new seperate crossover to use some time delay between the main reciever and the crown amp i have powering my towers.. i heard paul McGowan trashing crown amps in a video, but I'm assuming hes talking about the very old school club amps as this one is much newer and sounds good to me, did exactly what I wanted to, actually drives my 12 inch woofers properly, unlike the pioneer reciever, which definitely had a bit of lacking bass(at least after I found out the prior owner had the 40hz eq boosted up like 10db. Reset it all flat of course.)
In my book if it sounds good - do it. I have built my system to a tight budget with mainly second user kit and I have to say I have developed a great sound (to my ears). Two matched Amps and two similar Tannoy Floor standers bi-wired, I have tried all sorts of combinations and only with both amps and both pairs of speakers do I get the detail and soundstage. I do not allow myself to be seduced by graphs and sine waves on paper and just stick to my ears. I have spent less than £2,000 on two 120W NAD amps, two Tannoy Floor standers, a Michell deck, a Pure Tuner, a NAD CD and a NAD Cassette. So I probably do not have the most sensitive or refined ear which is just as well as I could not afford to support more demanding ears. Bottom line is I am very happy with my system and it's two pairs of speakers.
Only necessary if you're not sitting at or near the sweet spot. I usually prefer phantom center of a pair of speakers properly set up over a dedicated center when sitting at MLP.
I'm designing a outdoor system under a 12' roof open on 3 sides with a wall on one of the long sides. The space is 20' by 50'. Can you imagine any advantage to having two sets of two stereo speakers, each pair on a separate amp. I was thinking since this is such a narrow space I might position two like the old 30 degrees from center quadrophonic arrangement with the inner pair at lower volume. The listening area is spread out so high volume on the ends seems like a mistake. Comments are appreciated.
completely disagree with the assertions made in this video Blog. I run 5 pairs of speakers through 5 power amps controlled by 5 preamps in stereo in a 27'x18'x12' treated room + a sub and it is GLORIOUS!!! I have not experienced 'comb filtering' and the soundstage is pinpoint accurate. I can switch in each 'set up' one at a time and it keeps getting better. I'm not talking about bookshelf speakers but towers. I have no doubt that the sound gets more solid and concert realistic with very little distortion because each set is just coasting along. I still like to get to concert levels and dozens of people who have heard it are blown away.....
Great explanation as always... (off-topic) Could you please debunk the myth of audiophile "feet" for electronics? Some audiophile magazines claimed the isolation feet under the amps or dacs could change the soundstage, the bass response, or the details of their music! then they go on reviewing some of these feet claiming this has better midrange this has better depth in soundstage, and of course the best rating were the most expensive ones (500$).
Some capacitors also exhibit an electrical response when stressed physically. This response can be significant. This response is called the "microphonic effect" because the frequency of the response is often in the audible range.
Very true. Just follow the path of a voice or instrument all the lonng way down to your listening room - then your setup, YOUR room, YOUR hearing, YOUR taste - it's literally indefinite. Adding another pair of speakers to the pair you already have most likely will NOT better the experience. Better to put the money into romm treatment.
If you have a big room you need big towers. I got rid of some Polks and replaced them with SVS Ultra's and the Ultra's can easily fill my large room at concert level volume.
All new Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers are in the USA now and they are some of the very best speakers to EVER come on the world market ! They are really in a Class of it's Own....
I am currently using 4 pair of speakers in stereo and two subwoofer cabinets. Each cabinet has its own eq curve and time alignment. It was such a pain to get it right. It took me weeks to set up, but the outcome is near perfect to my ears. The bass response was by far the most difficult to get right. At listening position, you can't tell the sounds is coming from any particular speaker, even if you look right at it. Friends of mine had no idea music could be so enveloping. It's so satisfying.
I’m running a very similar set up right now and the sound is just phenomenal
I'm doing this in a small home theater with 90% music use, 10% movies. Minus the subwoofers. This got me +11 dB on bass and sub-bass down to 20Hz and +5dB higher up. There was some flaming on forums. I am using DSP modes in the AVR to switch between genres of music. It is perfect for live gig recordings. I get some trippy effects on some modes. I think I get some time smearing from the tweeters - but I can disconnect those. The crossovers are at 5kHz. I guess I could add LPFs to reign in the mids.
I had done this in the past too. I had a large space too fill at my work space. I did this on a shoe string budget. It literally took years to get it near perfect. Once I did l literally had a beautiful stage in front of me 16 or so feet back into the room. The sound was spectacular. The equipment was not expensive all second hand thrift store, from freinds, curbside and dumpsters. Every thing was there to be heard ( and some new stuff I didn't know was there ) and quite loud after the shop closed if I wanted. Nothing was next to each other. I cried when it had to come down...some of the regular customers weren't happy about it either. Bottom line experiment give each set of speakers thier own amplifier don't be afraid of equalizers and cover the cinder block wall with ruff plained rail road ties. Anyway make what you have work. So now I have a set of small speakers in my basement with a pair of Bose 301series IIs ( a pair of old Advent orange fried eggs in front) sitting outside and next to them . A pair of s speakers in paint cans on the floor behind me. The first watt is very nice wherever I am with a good sound stage. Those cinder blocks are covered with red oak plywood boards in the basement.
What if you run multiple amps with multiple speakers, them adjust to taste?
I run 3 pairs and a small sub. Two pair of floor speakers run through the receiver's 2 zone-control pre-outs and have their own dedicated amplifiers with independent tone controls. They are strategically placed in a 270 degree arc from the front to rear corners to maximize and balance sound distribution in the room. I also have 2 high-end bookshelf speakers that are placed in the rear bookshelf at listening level height, which run from the receiver's output, and drives them nicely. These fill in the gap between the rear floor speakers and balances out the sound in the room. I never play music very loud, just at a reasonable listening volume. The effect is extraordinary. Everyone who hears it is stunned at how clear and balanced the dynamics work to influence the music. It took a good number of combinations of receiver, speakers, and amplifiers to get it just right, but it's literally the best-sounding ensemble that I've ever cobbled together. I don't think I could ever intentionally go back to a one-speaker setup after experiencing this.
I made some stereo distributed mode loudspeakers for some fun. A/B them with some elac debut 5.2’s, very different sounds. Then I ran together because why not and and loved it, perfect complements.
I had these considerations when setting up my latest and probably final incarnation of a stereo system in our retirement home(I'm 71 and have been involved with audio (non-professionally) since the late '60s).
I decided to pull out the stops and build the best system I could put together. The system is a mix of old and new and is only used for Stereo/LPs, no streaming or radio which can be had on the HT next to the stereo.
Turntables
Thorens TD-160C with Shure V15III (New 1976) - using Project Tubebox S2
VPI Prime, 10.5" printed arm, Ortofon 2M Black 250 LVB.(2021) using the McIntosh phono.
Amps
McIntosh MA352 (20201)
McIntosh MC275 VI (2022) on the 2nd pre-output of the MA352
Speaker Selector
Niles Audio selector with volume control to balance the speakers
Speakers:
JBL L100 (New) Century on the MA352 output 1 (Inside pair)
Klipsch Forte II -(New 1989) modified with new tweeters and x--over.
The Inside pair are about 10' apart and the listening position is about 15' back. The speakers are about 3' from the wall.
So far I find I prefer the mix of the 2 amps/speakers. The speakers appear to compliment each other and fill in each others shortcomings. I tried 2 subs in the system originally but have pulled them, preferring the sound without them.
It's possible (more likely probable) that my ears are getting old but I am finding the sound to be exquisite. I switch back and forth to the individual speakers and keep returning to the 2 pairs.
I find I can get lost in the sound (with or without bourbon) and I have not found an issue with the soundstage.
Maybe I just got lucky? Maybe the laws of physics don't apply in my man-cave?
I, like you, I find that speaker pairs, from different amps, running the same stereo signal, can indeed complement each other. That’s the principle of singers who harmonize. That’s the principle of a chorus. I’ve continued to add amplifiers and speakers of a bookshelf variety to my own stereo system in a small office. I have 10 stereo pairs of bookshelf speakers and five subwoofers. By adjusting volume heights direction and the equalizers on each amp, I’ve been able to create a chorus of speakers with a distinct phantom center for vocals and a great sound stage for a single listener and a single position me while I work at my computer workstation. The sound is amazing as I continue to tweak The signals going to each pair from each separate amplifier. Most of the speakers are 20 years old purchase from thrift stores along with 20 year old amplifiers. The whole system costs very little. But I love the sound.
Hello Elliot, same here. I paired Wharfedale Opus 2-2 with vintage Technics SB 7070 for the fronts. For stereo I use a vintage Luxman L-580. The sound is sublime, they complement each other. Excellent clarity, imaging and big sound. They sound much better then each of them individually. Much more detail and no need for sub, the technics have 14 inch bass drivers.
@@KellyGerling Wow! That's impressive! I have to try something similar...
I run my 4 speaker setup with the other 2 speakers as surround speakers, as you mentioned near the end of your video. I like it. Also, don't have to turn up the music as loud to get that "immersive" music sound and disturbing the neighbors. 😁
Saved me from typing the same this.
I'm running 4 as dual stereo and they sound amazing :)
Good content Gene.
I've tried the multiple speaker setup in my younger days with JBL L-166 bookshelf speakers.
The best results I've gotten was stacking them. Two pairs, left & right each on top of each other.
The impact was quite satisfying!
The bass hit with much more authority & depth! It totaled four 12" woofers! If you want to feel concert bass there's no way around cheating physics.
The thing with the L-166 Horizon were their mid/tweeter arrangements. They were positioned side by side in vertical. In horizontal the mid/high are better aligned, not perfect. Weird that JBL would make a bookshelf horizontal rather than the classic standard vertical ? Also weird, they weren't mirror pairs either?
But stacking them helped them do a better job at producing realistic sound levels monitoring.
It only made clear to step up to JBL L-150A. They were towers with two 12" woofers each. That achieved the effect in a 12" square foot print.
It wasn't utopian..but it was very impressive for young ears & poprock & 70s Fusion.
I put a powered sub on the bottom of each speaker column
@@davidcarper5411 Now that's how to dislodge teeth. Lol
Is it possible to hook up the speakers parallel to the receiver
@@dennisbooth7097 I think that's what happens anyway when two pairs of speakers are run at the same time ?
What I do know is it drops the amps resistance to 4 ohms if the 2 pairs are 8 ohm rated ?
Only high current amps can handle such low loads at good volume without distortion or meltdown..or tweeter fry from all the dirty harmonics under distortion.
I went through plenty of tweeters until I figured that out ??
Only beefy receivers have anything under 4 ohms.
I only attempted running parallel with power amps. I believe I 1st tried that rigging with an NAD 2200.
@@dennisbooth7097 not recommended, the impedance could go very low which most receivers can t handle.
Back in the 70’s when I was in college, people were stacking AR 3a’s or similar, with the top speaker inverted. It’s not too dissimilar to the modern tall speakers of today.
Much to my surprise I never thought I would endorse more then on pair of L/R mains... Until I heard a pair of jamo 507a's (ran as the inside pair) and a pair of Mirage Omni 150's (ran the outside pair) the two seemed to compliment eachother and really made an amazing sound stage for all that was listened to. Now that being said don't know how that does with home theater and all only listened in stereo modes with music.
Also, when mixing two different types of speakers, the different group delay characteristics will often cause more cancellation.
What if it's 2 sets of the same speakers
@@joeschmoe435 the same speakers will work well as long as they are equidistant to the listener or if you time align them. Otherwise, vocal clarity will suffer.
Hi,. How about if all the speakers are the same and placed or located in each corner of the room. I also use multiple amps. One drives the treble, one drive the mids and one for bass. What's your opinion on this setup. I am interested to know what you would say to this. One thing I've noticed is stereo speration is very good. It sounds very good at low volumes. This is the best sounding and realistic system I've ever built.
I am running 4 pairs of Polk Audio T-15 Bookshelf speakers from a Yamaha AS301 (60 watts per channel). The speakers are 8 Ohm impedance so I wire them in parallel so the impedance is 4 Ohms. I connect each parallel pair to the A, B speaker terminals so I can switch then from the front of the amplifer. If iset it to A+B I have 8 speakers running. I can perceive no differnce between running 4 at a time vs all 8 if I adjust the volume. I stack the speakers (on their sides) in sort of a poor mans linear array. I have a large family room with high celing. I love this set up as the amp runs cool to the touch. I cannot turn the voilume up more than half way or its too loud. I have a Polk SW-10 subwoofer (gain set at the mid point) connected to the LFE output of the Amplifier. I have connected my TV to the amp via the optical output and even though it is only in 2 channel stereo it sounds great. For example in action movies you can hear a helicopter moving across ythe sound stage and dialog is clear ( I ahev no center channel). I prefer 2 channel becuase I mainly listen to music. I paid $49.00 a pair for the T-15s, $349.00 for the Yamaha amp and $119.00 for the Subwoofer. I consider it a budget hi-fi system. I'd like to upgrade but I think I spend most of my hi-fi budget on CDs ( I have over 1500 CDs + hundreds of cassette tapes and Vinyl). Is there a simple way to determine how many watts are going to the speakers .....I tried measuring the voltage & current with a multimeter as I know Power in Watts = Voltage x Current (at least in a DC circuit). Anyhow to my ears I get a lot of enjoyment out of the system as the Yamaha brings out great detail and stereo imaging. For the price I have not been able to find anything that beats this however I am on the lookout to upgrade one day.
I run two pairs but of the exact same models purchased at the same time. I would never dream of running two pairs of different models as "audio intuition" would suggest it would be a disaster. I absolutely love my setup. I still have great imaging and soundstage PLUS massive output with very low distortion as none are working very hard.
Magnepan did listening tests with non-professional listeners where they did three channel stereo with a center channel that played L+R at half the volume (- 3 db) and for orchestral music people found it to sound more like an orchestra. In the 1930's Bell Labs published that this was the way to play orchestral music.
For opera where you might not want the effect of a center channel if you want to place individual singers I turn off the center channel or play it in 5 channel if the disc has it and I use 5 channels for SACD. I have a selector switch on my center channel amplifier and I have the drivers of the 45 triodes driving an extra pair of 45 triodes the outputs of which go through one output transformer to get L+R without interfering with the stereo channels. Then I transformer couple the stereo channels to the grids of 833A radio station transmitter tubes run gently at 1000 Volts through Hammond's biggest air gapped output transformers to get enough power to use Magnepan 0.7 speakers and because the Magnepan center channel is slightly different from the stereo speakers I use a more modest GM70 triode.
Back when I was a kid, around 15 years old I did this as well but quickly discovered that no matter how you do it it’s still better with one pair alone than with dual pairs. More often than not those setups sound horrible. The last two systems I saw like this were both Klipsch. It’s like they buy the lower one and then buy a higher model but want to keep them both connected somehow. Then they get used to the wall of sound, and there’s no going back.
Seeing this gave me the idea about trying to distribute the center channel between the inner set and leaving the outer set left and right. It would seem to be a way to create a phantom center image directly in the center of the screen.
I'm doing this next in my experiments. A single center channel sounds alien to me.
I feel well positioned 4.2 configuration is great just not all up front
I’ve had really great results running multiple stereo speakers. Haveing a inner and outer set widened the sound stage to floating between the two speakers. No loss in positioning or clarity. Same signal to both channels. The outer set sit 3 feet farther out and two feet closer. The are Omni directional speakers so that might be helping the comb filtering
depending on my seating i can run a two set system or even a three set system. it not comb filtering uncontrolably, preserving details and having a great stereo image is a coicidence created by positioning and my room.
it started when using the boombox on the wall behind my seat on my desk as back speakers for surround sound. for curriosities sake i ran both from the same 2 channel signal, which resulted in a cancelation at my seat that created binaural stereo. i now use binaural instead of surround.
when moving from the desk chair to my tv seat (the wall 90° to my desk) i noticed the two speaker sets creating a correct stereo image centered on my tv, so i ran the tv speaker setup (center, sub, L-R, L-R ultrawide) in synchronization to see if it still fits, and it did.
all these things combined have a better frequency response than any of the sets alone. and the image is awesome.
so i now use this frankenstein wall of sound made from desktop speakers, a boombox and the tv setup as my cinema and listening system.
I dont know if i even qualify as an audiophile. I have svs ultra towers and a legit 100 watt rms yamaha integraded. It will pound your chest and the imaging is very exceptional.
How do you feel about stacked speakers, one on top of another? My dad's system is 4 pioneer hpm 900s 2 stacked left and 2 stacked right, powered by an a pioneer sx1280, and 2 1000 watt subs. It sounds like your at a rock concert. Just interested in your opinion. Thanks for the video
For good old fashioned 4 speaker stereo, stacking them instead of side by side can make a nice difference.
I have a pair of 1976 Celestion 15's and a pair of Elac b5.2's. Celestion's are placed on the floor and Elac's are placed on top of the Celestion's. I'm not happy with the sound of those speakers separately, but, when I play them together, I'am. I'm sure I'm not having an ideal representation, but I like the sound they produce together: Celestion's help with the bass, Elac's with the mids and treble. I still think I want a bit more treble, but I like it. Thanks for your video. Very informative.
I run 2 pairs of speakers in my tiny living room for a different reason: the main speakers of the main amp are aimed broadsided because of the television that they happen to accompany. When listening to music lengthwise and also because of the small room dimensions, it's very easy to step out of the speakers field of sound. So I have two book shelf speakers on a mini amp aimed lengthwise and above ear level, to continue the sound when I get up from my seat, or for people standing around during a party.
Short answer-Depending on the size of your room you can use 2 or 4 speakers and that can give you better results...
I didn't know people did this with two pairs up front. Seems overkill but I must admit it looks cool lol. I like to utilize my surrounds for 2 channel music listening. I have a 5.2 setup but in my Anthem receiver I have a profile for music where I use 'all stereo' with the center off & the rear speakers at a much lower level than the fronts, you almost can't even tell they're on until you turn down the fronts. The effect is a much wider & "wrap around" stereo image. I know this is sacreligious to 2 channel purists but I find it hard to resist once I've dialed it in. It's kind of similar to the old Pro Logic 2 music type DSP's but much cleaner & fuller sounding when I compare the two modes.
So with what was said about comb filtering, does this mean bipole speakers are an inherently poor concept? I just ditched some Def Tech SR9080's that seemed to have lots of comb filtering when I slightly moved my head, I could hear the highs coming & going... Failed experiment, back to monopole & happier.
Yes I think bipole are better than dipole but nothing compares to correctly placed monopole speakers with proper tuning for the room correction. Having said that, there are some situations and room layouts where bipole speakers are useful for home theater.
Can you use that set for music, or is in on 2 speakers only when you play music?
You need a good algorithm that can do music on 5.1 system, the < 2008 systems just can't do that for me.
some sets can do 2 speaker sets, that can be on algorithms so it sounds good
Musical harmony can happen when blending bi wireable dipole tower planar magnetic tweeter, planar midrange with cone subwoofer. Addingthe dual woofers of a typical tower box speaker (in this case a B&W and not using its cone tweet and mid range). The Dipole
planars, as you know are not affected by an adjacent box speaker. I tried this today and now get fast clarity and decay in acoustic with gut punchier bass. I would never thought to do this until I watched your video. A big thanks.
I run two pairs of speakers carefully positioned vertically stacked tweeter to tweeter. I also use a tuned baffle between the tweeters. Frequency sweeps indicate the linearity is better with the two pairs than with a single pair. This configuration is based on the Advent stack principle with the baffle my contribution. Imaging does not suffer. I must point out this is a proof of concept setup using four Sony SS-CS5s.
That still causes acoustical interference issues:
ruclips.net/video/r84ynSuFt6g/видео.html
@@Audioholics Do you guys take private questions? If you do how is it arranged….
@@Charles12509 www.audioholics.com/combo-pack-ebooks
A sweep will not necessarily pick up on lobing or comb filtering issues. It might look linear, but you're still losing information through interference and comb filtering.
I consulted an amplifier and speaker designer about all the THEORETICAL problems of what I was doing. His take was after doing dozens of designs and then building them following theory and computer modeling, he found the end result usually depended on the room and placement. The design did not necessarily predict what the result would be. In this case the pros far outweigh the cons. This was done with real world experimentation. In other words I listened to them and made changes until I got what I was looking for instead of just saying this won't work so I won't even try.
I have 4.1 setup (never found a center I liked, but that's a different discussion). This is of course 2 main and 2 rear, not side by side. If I play 2 channel it sounds great, but I feel it's fantastic in all channel stereo. Belive the setting on my pioneer is Ext.Stereo (Extended Stereo). But I have wondered if this is a loudness bias, as I do Jump back and forth. Also you didn't talk about power subs and how that could change the dynamics. I have a large record collection, and a sub feels like a must for pushing out those lower frequency. Does the source change your opinion on this?
My first major car stereo was a quadraphonic eight track. I'll never forget dark side of the moon in quad. I kept that deck until I couldn't find parts for it anymore. I even took it apart and adjusted the speed of the motor until the tracks were perfect length.. ahh the old days
Hey Gene,
I know this is an older post, but just found it.
You noted it would be a good addition ( having front wides) in an Atmos configuration, but in that scenario the front wides are pulled forward.
What would be the problem if they were wide, but set back closer to the back wall (but with room to breath) and boosted in volume a little more (run from a separate amp via front pre-outs)? Would that potentially help the in a stereo listening mode (if for example you had a couple different types of speakers you really liked, but other-wise want to keep your setup speaker consistent for Dolby Atmos movie viewing).
Or does that also create cancellation effects etc. even if both sets are toed-in directly focused toward a listener in the typical center (left to right-wise) of the room.
This I would I think would at least help with A/B listening even if the B set weren’t in the perfect place for a typical Stereo listening setup.
Thanks, and love the detailed “why” beyond the typical content/advice given on some other stations that you provide!
I have a different and somewhat unique use case. I like omnidirectional speakers. My first were gen1 Bose 601's (stolen in a break-in unfortunately). Currently have Ohm Walsh 5000 Talls. Also have pair of Magnepan LRS+ on order. Seeking a budget, quasi-omindirectional setup for a non-primary listening space. Current "experiment" is 3 pairs of Sony SS-CS5's ($113 per pair from Amazon) stacked one upon the other on custom tripod speaker stands to insure the middle, primary pair's tweeters are aimed directly at primary listening position with tweeter exactly at ear level. Bottom pair are aimed "out" exactly 90 degrees from primary pair (HUGE room with sidewalls 10 feet away). Top pair are inverted and aimed "in" 90 degrees from primary pair, and bouncing off 120" home theatre screen on back wall. Distance between stacks is approximately 10 feet. In summary, the "stacks" are pretty much squared up at their corners -- and held in place with some Blue Tac -- with the top and bottom speakers drivers facing in opposite directions.) Also present are a pair of SVS 1000 Pro's crossed over at 80Hz. Have only completed preliminary listening tests, but initial experience is that it sounds good -- for the money (3 x $113 = $339). Much more listening in store as summer winds down and we head into a Michigan winter. NOTE: Have purchased the GR Research upgrade for the primary, on-axis pair but have not yet had time to install.
I run 3 pairs,, sounds awesome
I'm running a set of Kef R3's and a set of Monitor Audio Silver 50's. Thinking of add some Revel M16's as well.
I think if he’s stacking up all those Cerwin Vega speakers ,he’s not worried about hi fidelity 😂 He’s rocking!!🤘🏻🤘🏻
I am running 1.5 sets of speakers from an amp with A/B channels and I definitely care about "accuracy". I have LS 50s about 7 feet off the wall with Rti A9s (woofers only) 3 feet behind and to the side. I plug the ports on all of my speaker because I need tight and accurate bass. The speakers totally disappear and present a very wide and deep layered sound stage. I have a much better system, but what I like about this set up is that I get strong bass even at lower volume with port plug in. It's like having a loudness button without degrading the signal with tone controls.
The Polks are 6 dB more efficient than the LS 50s, so the bass is louder but in a good way, because I use port plugs for tight and accurate bass. I despise bloated or resonated boomy bass, but I am getting none of it in this set up.
I know it's not really what you are referring too. I would not waste time setting up two pairs of mids and highs. That would be a given disaster.
Great info to try thanks
If you stack your speakers instead of putting them side by side, it preserves your imaging. Combining warm speakers with bright speakers seems to give the best of both worlds. It's actually amazing.
Interesting video. Ive watched many other videos on this topic and have researched the effects of comb filtering. My experience doesn’t reflect my research.
I have a substantial pair of floor standers. A couple of years ago, against all good advice I decided to try biamping those speakers, so invested in a 2nd, but different, power amp. As you can probably guess, it offered no real benefits other than a 3db gain at any given position on the preamp volume control. So, I purchased an identical pair of floor standers virtically stacked them in a Column array. So, I have a digital source connected to a DDC, connected to a DAC, connected to a preamp with 2 sets of live outputs connecting to separate and different stereo power amps. 1 of which powers the top of the stack, whilst the other powers the bottom. I don’t employ any measuring equipment other than my auditory system I don’t notice any shift in tonal balance as I walk around the room. No ‘suck out’ or reenforcement. Maybe, just maybe, a svery slight drop in high frequency presence. But that may be psycho acoustics playing tricks, because that’s what I was told to expect. My speaker stacks are 10.5 apart and my listening seat is 11.5 feet from my speakers! I can easily and swiftly switch from listening just to the bottom pair, to just the top pair, to both pairs simultaneously. The clarity, resolution, detail, neutrality, imaging and soundstage remain stable and constant. I normally listen at around 80db. With 1 set of speakers driven the dynamic swing is around 16db by. With both pairs driven, the dynamic swings widens to 24db. It has been suggested to me by other RUclipsrs that maybe, my hearing is defective. But I didn’t hear them clearly and my audiologist would challenge that. Even though the power amps are different, they both have the same, fixed gain of 26db and my preamp has unity gain. My 98 inch tv sits between my floor standers but further back and throws a tremendous soundstage using its integral speakers only. I have the added benefit that if a power amp develops a fault, or a speaker becomes defective, I still have a fully functional 2 channel system whilst repairs are on going.
Enjoy the music.
I agree gene....how people don't notice this is scary...i am willing to bet those people listen more to music than movies....but i think 🤔 if they are identical now you talking,but amps does the same creating a big dynamic sound ...thats all you do id doubling the sound coming from a set of 4 identical speakers...great video
Multiple point sources of sound do more harm than good, with the exception of a carefully well designed line array. it is all about timing, phase, and arrival times. Many good videos on comb filtering, which you need to understand that to get the basics of what is going on here. Great topic, hope it helps folks.
I had a pair of B&W DM 570s and B&W DM 300s running next to each other and I thought it sounded amazing the 300's had a punchier bass and the 570's had more present treble
I have this setup where i stack a 2 way (on top is KEF sealed two way) atop of a 3 way Kef Q tech... Both are fed from my amp (that has two sets of speaker terminals) but the top speaker which is turned 90 degrees inward, is fed by a hair fine speaker wire and it creates this oddly bizzare but enjoyable wall of sound effect (both towards the normal listening position AND when u sit in between them (it feels as if you are sitting in the middle of the stage) I dont know why it happens. My friend says its just luck and agree with him but im keeping it and my two cents here is: be careful when multi-speaker listening but DO experiment and see what you get
I'm so happy that you mentioned back in the day with quadraphonic, it was in my time,4 chs playing independently,pioneer qx949a, really greatly technology at the time. Now keeping up with all the new stuff is so complicated and expensive, so much combinations WOW. These days I'm still enjoying a 5.1
Set up. My advice is to work with a budget and keep it simple. All the best.
Kinda a different subject, but I listen to all my music in multi-channel stereo and love it. 2 front, 1 center, 2 side , 2 front height. It sounds fantastic!!
Definitely underrated! Similar to how I am running my Yamaha receiver. Looking to add a back pair for essentially a 9.1 setup. Are you using a Dolby Atmos, Yamaha receiver or something else?
I listened to music like that for years. I just recently got into just listening to music with 2 channel stereo. Took a bit get used to . But now I prefer music with just 2 channels now.
Same here. Ever since purchasing a Focal center channel a year ago. Sounds great. However, I recently returned to 2.1 after recently upgrading to a new sub, a Rythmik 12FVXSE. Sounds more focused, natural & balanced to me. Just gotta figure out presets now, so I can toggle between video & music. Thing is, some music is now being recorded in Atmos 😜
@@emailkenny Yeah, a good sub makes all the difference. I have two SVS 12x2's in the front corners. Those are my pride and joys.
No way, all channel music listening sucks balls, stereo all the way.
I did it for years in the 90's it was my poor man's surround sound system and it worked great. I had a stereo hifi vcr and an eq which I still have and in fact I still have my equipment except for the vcr and all of it still works I no longer use 2 pairs of speakers anymore but back then when surround systems cost more than what I made I to make do with what I had. I just used this set up mainly for movies not so much for music but I did a few times and it sounded pretty good. Oh by the way I had a pair in front and a pair behind me never next to each other.
This is interesting, because I have two sets, a medium sized set of floor standers (made myself) and a set of Yamaha bookshelf speakers. When I run them together with my Rotal A11, sure there is a fuller sound, but there is also a definite quality drop in imaging, both with depth and channel separation. Even more peculiar, when I run both, there is a definite shift of sound to the left channel at my 'normal' listening position. Moving my head closer changes and even eliminates that, but there are some bad sonic aberrations happening with the mix of the 4 total speakers and my room acoustics.
I inherited a pair of Vienna Acoustics Haydn speakers and found the sound fantastic, incredibly clear.
They aren't very big, but for my small office they are perfect.
The only thing I wasn't happy about was that they didn't produce enough bass for my liking, so I've tried a second set of speakers and it somehow didn’t make me smile as much, so I've removed the second set, and added an Onkyo subwoofer that I've bought at a thrift store instead and after fine-tuning the subwoofer amplifier, the sound in my little office is 👌
I just purchased a set of Hayden’s and they are fantastic. Plenty of bass for me but my listening room is small.
Even when I was doing car stereo contests I found the best sound was with three sets of speakers two tweets two mids, two subs. I found, when I introduced even rear speakers, it would draw the soundstage back would even do cancellation to my subs. With six speakers, 4 in front and 2 subs in back, I was running about 141+ db, and listening to "thriller" I could plainly hear the door open in the left of stage and the person walking across the stage, then the door closing on the right. When listening to music you could point to where each musician was standing on stage,. And orchestra's were breathtaking! I even had a recording of the Saturn 5 liftoff, and it would rock the car on it's springs! Anything above 1/2 volume you couldn't light a lighter in that car, even at a standstill. Excellent video. One set of speakers wave time alignment and bunches of power was my ticket, and I have some trophies to prove it. Now I want to get my old pioneer amp going again 160 wpc with. 02 distortion.. and caps as big as beer cans... Lol
Not sure my friend, possibly. I run HDI3600 (per your other video) with some B&W CM10s , there is a small amount of distance between them, both running from the same preamp, 2 identical amps driving each pair - 2 left, 2 right, and I find they compliment each other very nicely. The HDI add to the LF, CM10 to details. I'd say having both is a net improvement from a subjective standpoint.
Just get a surround processor and turn them into discrete channels. Why ruin the sound of good speakers with comb filtering playing the same content through them?
@@Audioholics So I finally had a look in the cabinet of the 3600s - not bad, I've seen worse. Mid-grade wire, but soldered directly to terminals, somewhat disappointing to see drivers made overseas, also disappointing unbranded electrolytics on the wooders and mid-woofer, no-name MET film on tweeters, look low cost, and average cement resistors - They really could have used metal oxide stock. 8 caps total per speaker across 2 crossover boards - HF/LF. Inductors are mid-grade, but slightly better with slightly thicker gauge, better than average. I ran some cost estimates to replace with some mid-range Mundorf stuff, came to $600--700 for the pair. Thinking of maybe doing this to the 3600 later this year. Others use Mundorf stock, that says something..
@@Audioholics You know what my friend, comb filtering - I'm looking at really disappointing parts in the entire crossover network. For the price they list them at for the parts used, the more I look at it, the easier it is to get pretty disappointed. I'll be ordering the Mundorf EVOs and wire wound resistors to replace their bargain basement electrolytics and sand cast mix.. Having a closer look at the internal wiring, it's also pretty sad. No friend, bigger considerations than a little theoretical sound clash on a chart/graph.
Hi Gene,
Great information. I was thinking about doing it...
Do to lack of space, I must install the front speakers in the ceiling. Which are the best speakers to do this job, without having to put double speakers ?
Thank you,
You could look at options from Triad that angle the baffle so the mid/tweet fire towards the listening area. There are other brands that offer motorized speakers that drop down on an angle when in use.
Hi, I'll get soon a pair of 3-way floor standing speaker to replace my bookshelves ones. What I had in mind, is place the two bookshelves left and right from my listening position but on the same line as me or almost on the same line. I can't place them really behind like in a classic quadraphonic setup. And send them audio that is only present on their respective sides (so something like negate L from R and R from L respectively), I've found a solution to do it (there are few vst plugin that are dedicated to mid-side treatment and do that), will have to fix delay, cancellation, phase issues, etc, also the room is treated, but not at all for that config, but what do you think about the idea ?
I don't know what the result will be, but I think I might get a better soundstage maybe by having full L or R signal being sent from another source that is more to the right and left from my listening position. Would also have some kind of high pass filter on them to have them only reproduce signal above, maybe 300Hz, don't know yet, will have to try. (in any case, I have the hardware etc to try it, so the experiment will not really cost me anything outside of time).
Thank you for this video and maybe for your answer ^^
Regarding running 2 pairs of speakers in stereo. I'm running two Klipsch 620's on the main Denon receiver but I also bi amped a 4ohm JVC running two Polk RT 35's . The Klipsch towers are 6 feet apart, then the bi amped Polk's are 3 ft farther and 1 ft forward and pointed at the main seating position . I wish I could just send you a picture. I use them both Klipsch and the Polk's in surround as well, so with the Klipsch center, it's a gentle curve in the front. (Worst room Ever! ) I love it but I haven't tried any other configurations yet.....any input? And I'm stuck against the back wall so I still have to figure out sub placement, 2 Klipsch 12 " subwoofers. But that is a different question for a different video. Any positive input is welcome.
I have an old system where I run a pair of Infinity Entra 2's floor standers with a pair of Mission 761i bookshelves sitting on top of them with my Marantz 1150 integrated amp. The Infinity are very warm and the Missions are very clear, so a great combination as far as sound tone. Clear and detailed with a fullness around it. In my room in my old house the imaging was rock-solid. You could pick out the location - horizontally, vertically, and depth of each instrument or voice. Very even volume (no peaks or lobes) and clear throughout the frequency range I could hear.
In my new house, I haven't been able to get the imaging solid. I am limited in my placement options, but I've tried several things. Right now, I have the Infinitys toed in just a little and the Missions toed in a lot so that they are crossed in front of the primary listening position. It does an okay job but the Instruments or voices seem to move around as frequency changes. Still a nice listening experience - I do have to focus to notice it - and of course I don't notice it if I'm in another room working or cooking dinner.
As far as comb filtering, I haven't heard any but I can't hear anything over 10khz anyway, so it might be there above that range, but I wouldn't know it.
I've got a pioneer the euro version of the 1250 160 wpc and clean as your mom's underwear lol. Aren't those old receivers great?
Not needed comb effect turns into roar. In small home room the sound field needs point source , an accurate sound field need less drivers ,and I use a ribbon tweeter, subwoofer and use duo 2 in open baffle on top top and 8in carbon fiber woofer 70hz and cut the 1k to 5k hz and it sounds great, my subs are 70hz down. Omg the duodayton18s play the room and do not give listener fatigue. I dont build anymore 50 year experience in car an home an clubs. Retired and blind crippled but not crazy, tinnitus and 13,000hz audible to me .
❤ your comments
Cool video. I just figured this out for myself when I added a pair of Focal chorus 807v to my system. The speakers sound great but I like them played by themselves with a subwoofers ×2 . I tried them as front presence channels and running the Polk r 200s as my mains but it didn't sound right.
What if you STACK two different types of speakers in 2.0 stereo setup? Use two amps, boost highs on top, lows on bottom, bi-amping the system? I have done this many times and got sound greater than the sum of all parts. Any thoughts on this setup regarding interference patterns? Thanks.
Any time you run multiple speakers playing the same signal without proper time delay or processing, you're causing combing effects. Flipping and stacking is an equally bad idea: ruclips.net/video/r84ynSuFt6g/видео.html
Promoter: How big do you want your speakers?
Audioholics: Yes
The other way I’ve set it up, was using Cambridge sound works cubes with Boston acoustic cr6 on there back behind the sound cubes
I've briefly thought 'what if I put some bookshelf speakers on top of those floorstanders, maybe I'll try it one day' then never bothered or given it any further thought... Now I know why not to bother or give it any more thought! Thanks Gene
Hi,
I have one pair of Monitor Audio silver 6 floorstander speakers on the outside of a pair of Quad Esl63 electrostatic speakers. Looking from the left- 1 Monitor Audio cabinet then 1 electrostatic speaker, then TV table with 49inch TV, then 1 electrostatic speaker and finally 1 Monitor Audio cabinet speaker.
I swap the speaker pairs over occasionally but I have never had both pairs of speakers running at the same time. The Quad speakers sound totally different from the Monitor Audio speakers ,more detailed but with less bass. Don't think I will ever play music through both pairs at the same time.
My amplifier only has one set of speaker outputs and it's not much hassle to swap the cables from one pair to the other, especially with banana plugs on the end of each cable. Don't want to risk damaging my classic Roksan Kandy KA1 MK3 amplifier.
Plus, most music has been mastered for 2 channel stereo and not 4 channel stereo. Okay, you can get 5.1 sound now but that's for surround sound systems.
I agree 100%. I’ve actually had my Klipsch Heresy beside my La Scala’s and when the Heresys were playing you thought the La Scala’s were playing. So not a good idea.
You get lobing no matter what you do. A center channel causes lobing, a subwoofer crossing over to the main L & R fronts causes lobing, surround channels cause lobing. The biggest issue for most people isn't the type of lobing detected in a perfect test room, it's what's happening in YOUR room. For the most part, reflections will be the big problem. USE TWO SETS OF SPEAKERS IF YOU WANT TO and don't worry about lobing. I've done it several times. If you have the ability to vary the loudness and equalization for each pair, you can play to their strengths. You might be surprised at how much you can approach what sounds like a near field listening experience. Mostly though, IT'S JUST FUN, and you could be very happily surprised.
I run two pairs of Klipsch kg 5.5 fronts speakers but got them to sound better if I put them in stacked position and the top pair upside down so the horns are close together and I love it for now but I always try different things so until a new idea comes along I'll leave them like that .
Haha, very timely video. I finally just got my Thiel 2.2's back from my ex after not seeing them for 6 years, but haven't hooked them up for the reasons you bring up. I have a pair of Focal Kanta No 2's I could set them next to - but the only thing I'd be accomplishing is to make sure they're still fully functional! But I wouldn't be able to evaluate them against the Focal's in any meaningful way. Each speaker needs to have a very different positioning for optimum soundstage and response. One or the other would necessarily suffer. Unless I can employ the services of a friend or two - they'll remain in their boxes until I do my secondary setup in the den.
I agree with you, but I had DCM Time Window speakers that had two tweeters and two woofers in the same enclosure that were at an angle to each other that sounded and imaged very good, with those speakers the trick was to keep them away from the walls.
Comb filtering, exactly! ~Great topic Gene! Thank you.
Decades ago, people would buy a pair of Advent speakers (now referred to as OLA's, or Old Large Advents) and fall in love with them. They would then buy a second pair and stack them vertically, with the woofers together (bottom speaker upside-down). This gave 3-6 dB more output, a tad more bass extension, and less distortion for a given SPL. But again, I emphasize, these were stacked speakers, not side-by-side.
I had that set-up. The one positive I remember was a larger sound stage. Listening to rock with a wall of sound!
Good video Gene, I enjoyed it.
My only comment would be I find the use of four speakers up front a terrible waste when they could be used to expand the system into a multich rig. For music there's no need to have a center channel and running 5.1 source in a quad playback system will work just fine.
I was confused by your comment against using towers for rear channels since bookshelf's are always placed on ear level stands anyway? What's the difference?
cent' anni.
Sal1950
Gene, I’d like to see you review the Halo Spring 3 KTE and or the Halo May KTE. These are R2R DACs and your review would be worth hearing. I expect honest and open reviewing from you. Some may not agree, but it will be fact based. The truth isn’t guaranteed to be pretty.
I play 2 JBL L4311 near the tv wall and 2 Advent Original near opposite wall. Sounds real good
I was an authorized Hi-Fi audio tech I worked at a high-end store in the late seventies I bought a pair of JBL L150s and then a pair of JBL 4311s. I currently listen to a Marantz receiver although I've got Phase Linear and SAE systems too normally I just listen to the 4311s they're at perfect listening height sitting on top of the l150s when I get pissed off I'll turn on the l150s too
I have a setup that will make you cringe. I have 2 old school 3 ways with 12" woofers in front and 2 bookshelf speakers on stands in the rear. I have an 8" ported sub behind my couch with the port pointed at the back of the couch. The bookshelf speakers don't have the same sensitivity as the big speakers so they play at a slightly lower volume. I have reversed the left/right signal so the rear speakers are right/left. This adds another dimension to the sound. I don't listen to everything this way but use this most of the time. There is no question that my system is not in the same category as those you and your followers are used to but I love it and isn't that what counts?
I hope I don't get too much abuse for admitting this.
So the front left and the back (left) are plugin on the R side of the amp ??.... Just changing the polarity of each back not enough ??
@@KillerKojak The back left is connected to the right output, the back right is connected to the left output *L- R
R- L
Gene what about stacking speakers (they never sounded good side bey side) But My older DLK 1 1/2 speaker were Stacked sounded better than just one, back in those day imaging was not yet invented or designed in the speaker and by stacking the speakers actually had better separation and imaging, Same w the DLK 2 and 3 (Stacking height was 49" to 53")
Very good analysis! I wondered how it would be in a Studio Room where it is common to have Near-field , Mid-fields and Main Monitors side by side? Your thoughts
A Anechoic chamber is great for tests but not for listening , adjust your home/car to taste not just specifications. All ears are sorta different. You can hear the room by covering one ear for test. Listen and learn
My brother/sister audiophiles
I run 2 pair simultaneously and it’s fantastic. Go figure I got the idea from my car 30 years ago. Seems like a no brainer. Park yourself in the middle and enjoy the X-Factor
When I see two speaker pairs like that I assume the person is running just one pair sometimes and the other pair other times. They might have some particular reason to run one pair like they have two very efficient speakers and run off a low wattage SET amp and then a big pair that run on a high power amp. But if I were doing that I would put the speakers: AB AB not like shown at 3:00 which is AB BA because you'd think the separation for each pair should be the same.
Depending on which pair is in use you'd sit a bit to the left or right
Hi , great informative video, I use 2 sets of speakers but mine front and rear of the room with a and b on Rotel A 11 , so can either front on or rear on , or both together, I recently replaced my b&w 602 s3 for 606 s2 , but I still like my old speakers so that why I have this set up. Totally agree with your findings having 2 sets of speakers side by side . Regards mark
I made it. I have 4 Sony speakers (okay, I already know that Sony doesn't serve as a reference in the audiophile world) and each pair does left and right. One on top of the other. Each pair has the original amplifier, exactly the same model. The signal source is a dvd player. They are interconnected by Y audio cable. All audio cables are shielded. I got a powerful soundstage, but the sound was muffled. The solution was to add a crossover. Result: I hear a powerful, clean sound, dry and defined bass sounds. Excellent for rock/pop.
Do 4 stereo speakers sound bad? I was thinking of adding two speakers behind me in stereo for added immersion.
You have taken exempels for drivning two different paires, but what about pairing two paire of smål speakers of the same model with the same preamp that has got two identical output to two identical poweramps in stereo? Exempel: RME + 2* Rotel RB-1552 + 2* paire of Dali Rubicon2 in a d'appolito position
W. H. R
My rear surrounds are Martin Logan CLX + MBL 116f 👍
Perhaps the photos illustrate one pair playing as part of a home theater setup and one set which is used when they play stereo music. I concede the wide baffle is a problem but with how loud people play this stuff they probably couldn’t hear anything outside of 50 - 2000 hz anyway.
Great info as always Gene. Thanks for the post.
I was hoping you were going to talk more about how best to set up two sets of speakers for A-B testing. Of course it is better to not have two sets of speakers next to each other, even if only one pair is playing at a time, for a long-term setup. But say you are demoing a new pair and want to switch on the fly with your current pair for a comparison before you complete your purchase (like you did with the RTJs and RBHs.) Was your setup ideal, or would something else have been better for A-B testing? Like could you have theoretically spaced the speakers a little further apart from each other? Or perhaps could you have put right-Speaker-A on the outside and right-Speaker-B on the inside but set it up vice versa on the left so that each stereo pair were equadistant from their mates (like I see some retailers do)?
I believe this is all done for looks as you'll notice the shiny copper k lips h woofers everywhere. Some folks are just more concerned with looks which is understandable but I don't think they really care much about imaging or soundstage vs lots of shiny speakers.
Most audio here is on ambient settings, Stereo source or ATMOS stream, just emulating the source on the 12 speakers i own.
I can switch to front speakers for all sources. My front channel are just 2 very large custom JAMO speaker, for if i need that old stereo sound, only 2 with 6 meters between them
Absolutely agree with that analysis. My question is this. Years ago some audiophiles stacked one on top of the other identical large advent speakers in discrete stereo pairs in 2 channel. Would your point still hold true about loss of stereo imaging and high frequency cancelation or would it enhance the sound accuracy?
Very bad idea: ruclips.net/video/r84ynSuFt6g/видео.html
Many years ago Paul Klipsch advocated a well separated center channel.
I do have two pairs of speakers connected to my amp but I never run them together, 1 is some big focal Towers , the other pair is some monitor Audio bookshelves set on top of the focal Towers , one would argue that it's really bad idea but they never play together, the focals is for daytime listening and the monitor audios for evening listening as in the UK we have small flats with really bad sound insulation, they both run with room correction and I did once try to listen to music with all the speaker on and although it is definitely louder , the sound accuracy and the sound stage was horrendous but I had to try to realise that running two pairs of speakers together is a really really bad idea if you do like accuracy .
So I've got a pair if technics SB-CL50 bookshelf speakers, and sat the moment, on top of a customized pair of Sony towers. Nothing used in the sony speaker is original, its definitely all much better quality, but the woofer is still un crossed over, but I dont hear any audible break up at its higher ranges. The technics have like a 3rd order crossover, forgive me I dont remember exactly what all the crossovers are, but I know it's the type that does like 18db per octave and I've heard they also can cause phase to change with frequency, so it's not easy to mate it up with more ordinary crossover type speakers. I also have the bookshelfs on top set up straight ahead, whilst the towers are slightly towed in. I know theres probably some reflections from the top of the towers but from what I hear they mesh well in this room, which is by no means ideal. The woofers are like 2 ft away and the tweeters are slightly offset and about 12 inches away. I know there may be some unwanted audio interference, but it may be possible that the phase thing from the technics crossover might actually be helping out in this scenario. It seems the highs are ok, I can hear it to 16khz, but it's the same with only one pair and my ear right next to the tweeter, so that might be something along the way in the proccessing.. I know my phone I could hear to about 18khz, and it fades out but still feel "pressure" from it up to 22.5khz. My main reciever is a pioneer vsx-815, in case theres some numbers to support that or just that in its age, it might have lost some high frequency capabilities. My custom towers have gold wood GW-12PC/8 12s, 1 per tower, and some dayton audio tweeters, with the caps from some others I swapped in, that definitely had some distortion(but they were very loud, and good for party speakers back then) I used to need the bookshelfs to fill in the mids as I had some pioneer car subwoofers and the aforementioned distorting tweeters in it. Now I dont need them, but I from what I've listened to maybe because I have one slightly towed in and one straight, it seems to sound quite good. I was supposed to have already built a new pair of towers using two of those gold wood woofers in each tower, and some audiopipe tweeters that some may scoff at for being a car audio brand. But they are 4 ohms, can absolutely handle alot of power for tweeters, and at least in the past, they both sounded more crisp and clean than even these daytons sound, although once more recently, I heard a discrepancy between the pair. All on their own even.. might be the caps being a bit older now, or maybe it was just the specific music I had been playing had weaker highs to the right.., I havent even done more testing since, but obviously when I make them I will be retesting, and if there is definitely discrepancy, I'll swap the caps out, if it's still uneven, I'll use something else. I'll probably still set those bookshelfs on top, they'll be on much less power, and I may even use the mounting arms that I got with the speakers to mount them up and farther away.. though I obviously dont have atmos. If I do that i may get a new seperate crossover to use some time delay between the main reciever and the crown amp i have powering my towers.. i heard paul McGowan trashing crown amps in a video, but I'm assuming hes talking about the very old school club amps as this one is much newer and sounds good to me, did exactly what I wanted to, actually drives my 12 inch woofers properly, unlike the pioneer reciever, which definitely had a bit of lacking bass(at least after I found out the prior owner had the 40hz eq boosted up like 10db. Reset it all flat of course.)
In my book if it sounds good - do it. I have built my system to a tight budget with mainly second user kit and I have to say I have developed a great sound (to my ears).
Two matched Amps and two similar Tannoy Floor standers bi-wired, I have tried all sorts of combinations and only with both amps and both pairs of speakers do I get the detail and soundstage. I do not allow myself to be seduced by graphs and sine waves on paper and just stick to my ears. I have spent less than £2,000 on two 120W NAD amps, two Tannoy Floor standers, a Michell deck, a Pure Tuner, a NAD CD and a NAD Cassette.
So I probably do not have the most sensitive or refined ear which is just as well as I could not afford to support more demanding ears. Bottom line is I am very happy with my system and it's two pairs of speakers.
I use one for full and one just the bass section as most hifi speakers have bi amp connectors anyways
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Thanks for clarifying. What are your thoughts on a 3.1 channel setup (center mono summed) for stereo music?
Only necessary if you're not sitting at or near the sweet spot. I usually prefer phantom center of a pair of speakers properly set up over a dedicated center when sitting at MLP.
I'm designing a outdoor system under a 12' roof open on 3 sides with a wall on one of the long sides. The space is 20' by 50'. Can you imagine any advantage to having two sets of two stereo speakers, each pair on a separate amp. I was thinking since this is such a narrow space I might position two like the old 30 degrees from center quadrophonic arrangement with the inner pair at lower volume. The listening area is spread out so high volume on the ends seems like a mistake. Comments are appreciated.
A bit late here. I run 2 sets of speakers for stereo, but not side by side. My second speaker set is a bookshelf stacked on my mains.
completely disagree with the assertions made in this video Blog.
I run 5 pairs of speakers through 5 power amps controlled by 5 preamps in stereo in a 27'x18'x12' treated room + a sub and it is GLORIOUS!!!
I have not experienced 'comb filtering' and the soundstage is pinpoint accurate.
I can switch in each 'set up' one at a time and it keeps getting better. I'm not talking about bookshelf speakers but towers. I have no doubt that the sound gets more solid and concert realistic with very little distortion because each set is just coasting along. I still like to get to concert levels and dozens of people who have heard it are blown away.....
You created sound reinforcement. Congrats.
How do you use a single source to output to that many preamps or amps simultaneously?
Great explanation as always... (off-topic) Could you please debunk the myth of audiophile "feet" for electronics? Some audiophile magazines claimed the isolation feet under the amps or dacs could change the soundstage, the bass response, or the details of their music! then they go on reviewing some of these feet claiming this has better midrange this has better depth in soundstage, and of course the best rating were the most expensive ones (500$).
Some capacitors also exhibit an electrical response when stressed physically. This response can be significant. This response is called the "microphonic effect" because the frequency of the response is often in the audible range.
Very true. Just follow the path of a voice or instrument all the lonng way down to your listening room - then your setup, YOUR room, YOUR hearing, YOUR taste - it's literally indefinite. Adding another pair of speakers to the pair you already have most likely will NOT better the experience. Better to put the money into romm treatment.
If you have a big room you need big towers. I got rid of some Polks and replaced them with SVS Ultra's and the Ultra's can easily fill my large room at concert level volume.
All new Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers are in the USA now and they are some of the very best speakers to EVER come on the world market ! They are really in a Class of it's Own....
Good topic. I have not seen this topic done until now.
I'm surprised he didn't mention the subwoofer setup for that klipsch picture.
I use multi channel stereo with my surround sound for music all the time and I think its just better than 2 speakers
How would you do the wiring in case I wanted to try it????