Challenging stuff. I hate when I think I'm grooving in 7, start a fill, and immediately my brain reverts to 4, causing me to lose the 1. Having a bass grooving in the odd time helps though.
@MomoTheBellyDancer Exactly, but the bass player often has a longer time scale that is distinct for a full bar. Money by Pink FLoyd comes to mind. It's easy to play that because the bass line is so memorable. Similarly, the singer helps keep you track of the very long time scale, when changes are coming, etc. Without the singer, some song would require you just to count bars in your head.
@MomoTheBellyDancer on your first comment i thought you were joking....it was funny....but reading through i realize you were NOT joking... your logic and reasoning, is deadly accurate here.....like a good lawyer.. ..im just learning to play drums enough to multitrack on my original songs, and i have a taste for odd meters, but this is above MY payscale..... (im a guitarist mainly.... ) ...i figure, just like when i learned guitar, a 'little' Jazz background will put me way ahead of the pack.... so this is a good lesson for me.... I DO believe that learning to play "Money' will be good for me, cos i like Nick Mason......and his style.....and it isnt in just 4/4.... and its impressive that the song was SUCH a big hit....it kinda snuck under the radar into the public consciousness.... I sure wont be learning any Mahavishnu stuff, because im more into Ringo, and Levon, and Keltner these days....(it suits my songwriting style ) but i think this is one of 80/20s best lessons...and im here to learn. Thanks for your input....Sir..... ;-)
Your drum face has an I-just-woke-up-at-the-dentist-and-my-mouth-is-completely-numb vibe to it. I'm a fan. And though I'm a total drumming noob (coming from some popular stringed instruments) your videos are really bringing into focus the way I want to play.
My advice would be to treat those as individual grooves you gotta learn. 3+4 and 4+3 are both very common in east european music, they have really different feels to them and both require some getting used to. 2+3+2 is unheard of though, as far as any traditional music I've ever studied or heard.
You can count 7, knowing how you structure it. In Kumi na moja, Simon Phillips plays 11/8. First part of the piece, he plays 5/4 + one eight (or 4/4 + 3/8), in the bridge he plays 12/8 minus one eight. Of course, Simon doesn't need to count. But some of us do.
I don’t know if anyone else does this but I like to count 5 as 1 + 2 + 3 , 7 as 1 + 2 + 3 + 4. I feel this helps feel more of a pulse to the meter. This has helped me internalize them and feel it as more of a pulse
Nathan Randolph lots of people think of it that way. Check out Frank Zappa’s Joe’s Garage album featuring Vinnie Colaiuta and you’ll hear that type of counting all over the place. That era of Zappa’s music pretty much taught me everything I know about odd meters. The ultimate mindfuck is the solo section on Keep It Greasey, which is in 19/16, subdivided 7/16 - 5/16 - 7/16.
The next step is to feel the 1-2-3-4 like quarter notes, then flip every other measure to the upbeats. Now you’re playing 7/8 measures but tapping a nice 7/4 pulse for people to nod their heads to.
I feel like it's always about approaching the groove with the intention of the odd meter and not just cutting down or addind to a 4/4 groove. There are very very interesting and musical grooves that can also be contained in the bar. Although I agree that playing phrases over the bar tends to make everything sound more fluid.
Dig this a lot. Chris Coleman has a video of odd time that changed my conception of odd time. He plays a passage in 25/16, which he’s voicing as 7/8, 2/4, 3/16 He breaks down the count on each time signature, gets the audience to clap along, and then rips it to pieces. The takeaway being that any time signiature can be broken down into groups of 2 and 3. When you approach odd time from that perspective, it really recontextualizes the options available for odd time, which helps avoid the mission impossible feel you’ve previously discussed
I'm not a drummer, but vocal syllables like konnakol helps a lot with feeling 2, 3, 4, 5, etc groupings which can be used together to create longer beat cycles similar to what you're talking about. Listen to south indian percussionists play in odd rhythm cycles and you'll hear how free they sound.
Your demonstration of playing over the bar line both in straight and odd time was perhaps the best demo of anything you've done on your channel. And it also reminds me that I really need to bone up my practice routine....
Odd meters, where would we be without 'em! A great way to be challenging, and add excitement to the mix!! Thanks again Nate for this invaluable insight dude, stay cool!!!
I been struggling to find an easier way to get odd meters over the bar line. This may be what I’ve been looking for. I’ve learned that you helping me learn helps my students learn. Thank you
I find that learning even the basics of konnakol has helped me tremendously with odd time stuff. Indian music is linear and has no harmony, only melody and rhythm, so their focus on rhythm is way more advanced, as well as how they see and feel rhythm. Even polymetric and polyrithmic stuff starts becoming easier to understand. Even if you just use the bols to speak rhythms and don't make use of kaidas, tihais and so on.
If you say the full word, you're actually adding extra duration to the last beat. The faster your tempo is, the more time you're adding to the last beat. Eleven is worse, as it adds one triplet to the end of the beat if you say the full word.
I'm Greek and when I count from 1 to 4 everything has 2 syllables except 4 that has 3, tessera.. That's tes se ra, so what I did because it confused me was to cut the se, so it became te ra if you know what I mean
This is great! As a garage band punk with no classical training, jazz always seemed like a walled garden that only a certain type of musician is allowed to play in. Your work helps de-mystify all of that so that I can create a skillset that is more refined than ticking in four, playing a fill, hitting a crash, and ticking in four.
Aha, my specialty! I may not be very versatile, quick, or have the cleanest control, but I've spent so much time improvising and practicing with odd times that I can lock into just about any one I want after a few bars to get a handle on it. It helps make up for how clunky I am when it comes to fast stuff.
80/20 Drummer! This is brilliant!! I've never heard this somewhat complicated concept explained so eloquently. Cant wait to begin practicing using this technique.
DUDE - what a GREAT video! I'm a keyboard player, and I've been watching your stuff. Piano/keys are technically a part of the percussion family, and if I'm not locked in with the drummer, then it just sounds wrong and bad. Just like playing with better drummers has improved my relationship with rhythm, your videos have also helped me to improve my relationship with rhythm. I just signed up for your list and downloaded the above transcription. Can't wait to apply it to the keys! Thank you so much for being here, and for doing what you're doing. - Andrew Colyer, New York
This is exactly what gavin harrison talks about when he talks about using regular subdivision pulse to keep the listener grounded while playing any odd time signature. 1/4 note pulse over 7/8 , it goes even odd even second bar , by playing 1 1/4 note pulse over 5/8 your creating a common anchor point . that everything else can revolve around !! Its great practice. I awlays had issues hearing two bar phases of 5/8 in my head , when I stopped listening that way. I started to come together.
I always just listened to and played along with Bulgarian folk music and also practiced 4 over 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, & 13 to a click and vice versa 3 over 4 etc. Thanks for the video👍
Wow the part about law and order and sopranos was very insightful. I had to pause the video for like five minutes and think about how that concept can be applied to my songwriting and not just my odd meter drumming. I think I may have to rewrite a few transitions to be less like “neat endings” and more like... sopranos endings idk... and keep listeners attention section to section. Thanks for putting that gem in my head.
Dude I don't even drum or play an instrument properly. But programming in drum patterns all the time on my phone (especially on the toilet 😏), has really made me appreciate what actual drummers can do. I even find myself randomly tapping my fingers and thumbs on random objects, always creating drum patterns. The thing is, when I program them it's usually in 4/4, but when I'm doing it live I just have full control over all of it. Seeing this video reminded me of that nasty habit I have, this is awesome! 💎
One thing that elevated those kind of exercises for me was when I felt the difference of playing the phrases over a count instead of counting over the phrases. A simple variation to strengthen this feeling of the one (and the big beat), is adding accents. Both verbally and on the kit :)
Great insight! Thank you and I’ll try it first thing in the morning.I’ll let you know how it went, although only the last minute it makes sense to me, maybe because I’ve understood only that by now. It is going to keep me busy for some time. I was always supposing how Donati is thinking it, and I guess it should be this way, only more simplified for us mortals.
@@nicolechacon7323 Oh, good idea, I can use the trei -ze. Now, problems start at 17 ! But I'm not often confronted with this. My fellow musicians don't allow me to write arrangements in odd time signatures, as they think my arrangements in four are already pains in the ass (I'm a big fan of cuban music, obviously they are not).
You can play in 4/4 so effortlessly because you've internalized 4/4 meter. You have to do that with every other meter as well, internalize it. Learn to play 200 songs in 7/8 and you'll be fine in 7/8. Jmho
Alternative description: Step 1: don't know odd meter Step 2: listen to King Gizzard a bunch Step 3: ??? Step 4: You've internalized odd meter This is really it. Anything you can practice will end up being learned, and odd meter isn't even particularly difficult with a bit of investment. Polyrhythms... now those can be hard on a level that requires much more prior engagement. Still, everything is possible.
Bill Peart Right. It's all anectodal. I grew up mostly playing to songs in 6 (not a conscious effort at the time, it just so happened a lot of bands I like write songs in 6). When I tried holding down a basic 4/4 groove it was actually awkward for me for about a week.
Well the best exercise I found to play over the bar in odd metters is to play ostinatos right hand, 3s, 4s, 5s etc with simple kick snare pattern, then adding complexity on these two elements Ofc with counting loud
I like to think of odd time phrased evenly until you come around to a common denominator. Or any even number combo + the remainder of the phrase. Like 2 bars of 7 = 14 beats + the 1. This can allow cool polyrhythmic groupings to emerge. Like 5 over 7. It also allows grooves to be displaced until the common denominator cycles through. As long as you can feel/count the longer phrases it can open up your world. One of my favorites is “The Grid” from Tigran Hamasyan. But a more simplistic example that grooves really hard is “Seven Days” by Sting. Cool video man! 🤘🏼😎
The 80/20 Drummer Haha! Yes! Indeed it is in 4. Unless you count it in some weird variation of 5/16 and close the phrase with the remainder. That’s what I’m saying though, is that odd times should feel like 4. In the case of “The Grid,” 4/4 feels odd, lol. Another cool time example is from the same Mockroot album, “To Negate.” I believe it’s in 13/8, but the beat is felt in 4/4 until enough bars come around to resolve it evenly. I love this kind of stuff! Thanks for the reply man! 🤘🏼😎
This is where marching-style grids really come in handy. Just playing it on a pad helps train your ear hear where the downbeat falls against odd groupings, whether in odd meter or not. Grids = help you play over the bar.
I essentialy started out with odd time signatures (often, well into the upper-teens), completely unaware that it was, in any way, 'advanced'. On the contrary, I had a bad case of 'imposter syndrome' because of it. Eventually, I would learn to 'count' my natural oscillations. But I never got over the imposter syndrome... and was easily impressed to see someone just playing a simple 4/4 rhythm ('Why can't I sound disciplined and 'real' like that?'). But it's significant that I NEVER COUNTED until much later (that's why I am able to 'feel' odd meters to this day).
Great lesson Nate, as always! I assume that your concept relies on the usage of polymeters. Am I right? The most famous example of polymeters in pop music is Kashmir's riff over Bonzo's 4/4 groove ;)
I love them, and I had little normal bars in my life. However I know the jail. I overcome a new challenge by splitting beats into triples, and a rest, keeping in mind where the 1 is. Over time I get the feeling and then I can play without loosing it.
The key instructional piece for me, that is missing is, "where is this going?" At the end of our ramble in playing smaller units of time , in 2 or 4, over a grid of some odd time, 5 or 7 or whatever, we have to have the wherewithal/ presence of mind to be able to land with the other players, on the next important ensemble passage, or 1 of the bar. I didn't catch your approach. Are you counting in your head, "1 2 3 4 5 6 7:, or are you just "feeling a time/space pattern/ pulse"?. And how do you arrive together at the end of your bar-over-running', say , in 21 measures of 5? Just asking. Love your references, and you honesty and your humor..../
I love odd meters, I like a nice funky 15/16, I totally understand the bar line jail though, after a while you don't think of it as a jail cell, more like a bigger jail cell where you can do more, I like to play over the bar on a odd time, I don't really count odd times, its a feeling now, even times I haven't done before if I can feel it I can play it.
We are used to a lot of rythmic patterns in 4/4, but when it comes to odd time signatures, we have a choice between a neutral counting, or a specific pattern. In his method Contemporary drummer + 1, for the tune Island magic, Dave Weckl explains he counts 1 2 3 & (two quarters two pointed eights). It's a clave in 7/8. Very difficult. You can play salsa singing the son clave, or the rumba clave, but how are we supposed to sing a specific clave on any tune in 11 or 15 ? I chose the neutral counting, that allows me to put the accents where I want and feel a particular pattern without being stuck to it. In "19 days", Gavin Harrison counts 7 7 5. Piece of cake.... till the music comes in !
“It’s a lot more boring right?” No. You grooved harder and it made me bob my head when you phrased simpler. I think for odd meters you’re totally right about having more flowing phrasing but I wouldn’t necessarily make that a priority over making the tune bump in whatever meter. The average listener doesn’t play music, Ethelred blind to a lot of the nuance we think is important.
I am not a drum player, but this just showed me how much I don't know about music. Whenever I hear 7/8, 5/8 and other odd meters I get lost in counting the beats... :/
Great instruction! Another helpful idea- Download this video; Download Music Speed Changer App; Listen to this at a slower tempo and begin slammin' the odd meters. 👍
May I ask if there is a special reason why you put that Tama S.L.P. kit on the video cover ? ( Or is it called "thumbnail ? " ) Just curious. greetings,...and stay healthy !
I find many of your videos interesting to watch and listen to and some instructional, but I didn't find this one helpful. In fact, when you got to the "2 bar phrases over 5" bit around 6:00 and I started ignoring the count on screen and instead started my own count, I found them to be just basic 4/4 (with the snare on 1) and the 5/4 might have been happening underneath, but there was no sense of that pulse. In effect, I didn't find these to have a 5/4 feel at all, and if there were accompaniment with this with other musicians who had an actual 5/4 feel, I think if I played this way, they would want to kill me - except of course in limited parts where it felt interesting - but the whole feel? Nah. I think it's really more about learning how to Feel 5/4 or 7 or whatever and less about how to play feeling 4/4 while counting 5/4, which feels like cheating and missing the point of the odd meter to begin with since you are really just playing even meter anyway. Maybe I'm completely off here and don't know what I'm talking about - but my $.02 nonetheless.
I agree, I think putting the 5 on the kick, snare, left foot or combination while adding 2 or 3-bar long phrases on top of that would be a better way to practice. Many odd meters have started to feel very comfortable to me after listening to and playing odd meters for so long that doing fills that go over the bar feels pretty intuitive. Also most of these examples are basically just polymeters which is another level of complexity added if you're just trying to be able to play longer phrases in odd meters.
not sure if my level of drumming allows me to have a word on this, but i think i'm pretty fluent in odd time sigs. what worked for me i guess was ingesting an insane amount of danny carey drumming and improvising with my band, all this over a pretty long period of time with consistence. then again, i'm a pretty-much-self-taught drummer of a post-rock/alternative band so i just kinda figured it out for myself
crifox16 Same here, though I've never played in a band. However, thanks both to playing a lot of Soundgarden and, more importantly, Tool, and to my general interest causing me to practice odd times, I can jump into pretty much any one I want (including off-sixteenths!), and it's pretty satisfying to have a skill subset that's fairly rare like that. Helps make up for much of lumbering oaf I am when it comes to speed.
I am fortunate to have played in the fusion years.. odd times are fairly natural to us old goats.. Hey what were the names of the three jazz drummers you mentioned? I could not quite make them out thanks :)
Bill - Marcus Gilmore plays drums with the Vijay Iyer Trio. Gilad Hekselman is a jazz guitarist. I think he's played with a variety of drummers but Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and Jeff Ballard come to mind. Tigran Hamasyan is a pianist. I'm not as familiar with his music and am not sure which drummers he's worked with. Cheers!
@@philipthoennes4546 Thank you a bit late lol.. Love your videos.. both the knowledge as well as the humor.. Young drummers don't know how good they have it today regarding the internet.. I had a radio 😉🥁
I always found odd time signatures exciting. I never got boxed into thinking of music as only naturally phrasing into 4/4. Within odd time... rhythmic phrases become as unique and interesting as melodic phrases, which are obviously not always sung in even quarter or eighth note phrases. Bill Bruford, Phil Collins and Neil Peart helped me regularly escape the 4/4 prison of popular music.
Ha, love Anger management! Sting had an old song with Vinnie “I hung my head” , it shows that keeping a accent on the down beat while the rest of the limbs follow the language somewhere else can have a pretty simple, but audible difference..
I didn't watch the hole thing but if you didn't talk about grouping, then to make your life easier when soloing or improvise in general break the time signature in to groups for example: 7/4 1234 123 5/4 123 12. Like that i found it more comfortable.
Tried phrases of 4 over 9/8 the other day. #fail... Probably much like when I'm gonna have to solo in 17 on Tuesday 🤦🏼 anyway.. can be nice to hide the skip beat in the middle of the bar. So if for example you're in 7/8, turn that into 14/16, grouped 3,3,2,3,3 to make a sort of clave to phrase around. Which means you'll naturally phrase over the barline every time. From there you know that you can play in constant groups of three as long as you throw in a group of 2 anywhere in the bar.... And that's my secret for getting everyone on the gig lost.. including myself 🧐
I grew up listening to big band and jazz then moved on to other time signatures so it came naturally to me, I guess, no idea. I guess I don't think about it anymore.
It's perfectly doable not to think about a 4/4 count but are you saying that you would be able to do any odd signature without counting it? Is it simply a case of practice?? I never was any good with numbers...
Since this is my favorite thing, I've found one major thing to help with it is to work on polyrhythms. Say you start with layering some kind of 3/8 or 3/16 lead over a straight time beat, or a 1/4 note lead over a 7/8 or 9/8, and get yourself used to the oscillation that results from it; it will help develop the ability to count "on top" of what you're playing, so to speak, so that you might play around a bit without hitting a specific reference beat, but still maintain the count in your head. Even just trying for a minute or two each time you're improvising; that's pretty much what I've been doing, and I can do some pretty neat stuff on the fly with it now; plus, if you want to do wacky stuff like play something that comes to 29/8 or 37/8, it can really exercise your mental math.
At 5:27 You say you are going to play a two beat phrase - but when you play I'm hearing two three beat phrases, and then random stuff that sounds three beat to me: 1 2and3, 1 2and3, 1and2 3, 1and2 3and, 1 2 3and, 1 2and3, I'm confuse, sorry
Hey, can anybody tell what the trashy stack is being used to the right of the bass drum? I think I know what the top cymbal is, a Zildjian EFX crash, but I don’t know what the bottom one is. Thanks.
im no drummer, does 80/20 mean anything? there is also a band i know called 30/70 that is heavily rhythm based, it almost leads me to believe they are related to the same concept.
Hi thanks for the lesson. I'm a beginner and can read notation. But on your download there are these numbered things on top of each bar: eg 5:35", 6:10", 6.44". Can you or one of the commenters explain what this is.. sorry for my ignorance. It's probably very obvious.
Challenging stuff. I hate when I think I'm grooving in 7, start a fill, and immediately my brain reverts to 4, causing me to lose the 1. Having a bass grooving in the odd time helps though.
MomoTheBellyDancer Seriously? Or is that sarcasm?
@MomoTheBellyDancer Exactly, but the bass player often has a longer time scale that is distinct for a full bar. Money by Pink FLoyd comes to mind. It's easy to play that because the bass line is so memorable. Similarly, the singer helps keep you track of the very long time scale, when changes are coming, etc. Without the singer, some song would require you just to count bars in your head.
MomoTheBellyDancer the musicians are not playing alone, they are playing together as an ensemble. It’s their job to support their fellow musicians
@MomoTheBellyDancer on your first comment i thought you were joking....it was funny....but reading through i realize you were NOT joking...
your logic and reasoning, is deadly accurate here.....like a good lawyer..
..im just learning to play drums enough to multitrack on my original songs, and i have a taste for odd meters,
but this is above MY payscale..... (im a guitarist mainly.... ) ...i figure, just like when i learned guitar, a 'little' Jazz background will put me way ahead of the pack....
so this is a good lesson for me....
I DO believe that learning to play "Money' will be good for me, cos i like Nick Mason......and his style.....and it isnt in just 4/4....
and its impressive that the song was SUCH a big hit....it kinda snuck under the radar into the public consciousness....
I sure wont be learning any Mahavishnu stuff, because im more into Ringo, and Levon, and Keltner these days....(it suits my songwriting style )
but i think this is one of 80/20s best lessons...and im here to learn.
Thanks for your input....Sir..... ;-)
I agree
Your drum face has an I-just-woke-up-at-the-dentist-and-my-mouth-is-completely-numb vibe to it. I'm a fan. And though I'm a total drumming noob (coming from some popular stringed instruments) your videos are really bringing into focus the way I want to play.
Don’t you dare ever change the channel theme I love it so much it’s obscene.
When I play 7/8 I like to count 1-2-3- 1-2- 1-2 or a different variation of that. It makes the beat feel like it flows better.
You can count in a number of different ways and it will feel different. 1 2 3 4 1 2 3. 1 2, 1 2 3, 1 2...etc
My advice would be to treat those as individual grooves you gotta learn. 3+4 and 4+3 are both very common in east european music, they have really different feels to them and both require some getting used to. 2+3+2 is unheard of though, as far as any traditional music I've ever studied or heard.
You can count 7, knowing how you structure it. In Kumi na moja, Simon Phillips plays 11/8. First part of the piece, he plays 5/4 + one eight (or 4/4 + 3/8), in the bridge he plays 12/8 minus one eight. Of course, Simon doesn't need to count. But some of us do.
I don’t know if anyone else does this but I like to count 5 as 1 + 2 + 3 , 7 as 1 + 2 + 3 + 4.
I feel this helps feel more of a pulse to the meter. This has helped me internalize them and feel it as more of a pulse
Nathan Randolph lots of people think of it that way. Check out Frank Zappa’s Joe’s Garage album featuring Vinnie Colaiuta and you’ll hear that type of counting all over the place. That era of Zappa’s music pretty much taught me everything I know about odd meters. The ultimate mindfuck is the solo section on Keep It Greasey, which is in 19/16, subdivided 7/16 - 5/16 - 7/16.
1+2+3=6, and 1+2+3+4=10. Please explain...
David Andrew Moore The last number is an 8th note.
The next step is to feel the 1-2-3-4 like quarter notes, then flip every other measure to the upbeats. Now you’re playing 7/8 measures but tapping a nice 7/4 pulse for people to nod their heads to.
@@hotdammusic 1+2+3 has five characters and 1+2+3+4 has seven :)
I feel like it's always about approaching the groove with the intention of the odd meter and not just cutting down or addind to a 4/4 groove. There are very very interesting and musical grooves that can also be contained in the bar. Although I agree that playing phrases over the bar tends to make everything sound more fluid.
Dig this a lot. Chris Coleman has a video of odd time that changed my conception of odd time. He plays a passage in 25/16, which he’s voicing as 7/8, 2/4, 3/16
He breaks down the count on each time signature, gets the audience to clap along, and then rips it to pieces. The takeaway being that any time signiature can be broken down into groups of 2 and 3. When you approach odd time from that perspective, it really recontextualizes the options available for odd time, which helps avoid the mission impossible feel you’ve previously discussed
I'm not a drummer, but vocal syllables like konnakol helps a lot with feeling 2, 3, 4, 5, etc groupings which can be used together to create longer beat cycles similar to what you're talking about. Listen to south indian percussionists play in odd rhythm cycles and you'll hear how free they sound.
How do you play 25/16
Your demonstration of playing over the bar line both in straight and odd time was perhaps the best demo of anything you've done on your channel. And it also reminds me that I really need to bone up my practice routine....
Odd meters, where would we be without 'em! A great way to be challenging, and add excitement to the mix!! Thanks again Nate for this invaluable insight dude, stay cool!!!
I been struggling to find an easier way to get odd meters over the bar line. This may be what I’ve been looking for. I’ve learned that you helping me learn helps my students learn. Thank you
I find that learning even the basics of konnakol has helped me tremendously with odd time stuff. Indian music is linear and has no harmony, only melody and rhythm, so their focus on rhythm is way more advanced, as well as how they see and feel rhythm. Even polymetric and polyrithmic stuff starts becoming easier to understand. Even if you just use the bols to speak rhythms and don't make use of kaidas, tihais and so on.
Mega agree with you and do the same
Yeah bro exactly. That video on Indian drum language changed my life. I realized that the word Seven is two syllables and that was confusing my brain
If you say the full word, you're actually adding extra duration to the last beat. The faster your tempo is, the more time you're adding to the last beat. Eleven is worse, as it adds one triplet to the end of the beat if you say the full word.
konnakol unlocks everything. It's like the secret language of a mathematical universe.
I'm Greek and when I count from 1 to 4 everything has 2 syllables except 4 that has 3, tessera.. That's tes se ra, so what I did because it confused me was to cut the se, so it became te ra if you know what I mean
This is great! As a garage band punk with no classical training, jazz always seemed like a walled garden that only a certain type of musician is allowed to play in. Your work helps de-mystify all of that so that I can create a skillset that is more refined than ticking in four, playing a fill, hitting a crash, and ticking in four.
Aha, my specialty! I may not be very versatile, quick, or have the cleanest control, but I've spent so much time improvising and practicing with odd times that I can lock into just about any one I want after a few bars to get a handle on it.
It helps make up for how clunky I am when it comes to fast stuff.
Where's one?
If you find the G spot, then .... never mind;-)
I can see you're coming out of your shell and pushing it a bit. I respect that man. There aren't many introverts on youtube.
Now you mentioned it, I'm eager to hear the channel theme in 7/8 or 9/8.
80/20 Drummer! This is brilliant!! I've never heard this somewhat complicated concept explained so eloquently. Cant wait to begin practicing using this technique.
DUDE - what a GREAT video! I'm a keyboard player, and I've been watching your stuff. Piano/keys are technically a part of the percussion family, and if I'm not locked in with the drummer, then it just sounds wrong and bad. Just like playing with better drummers has improved my relationship with rhythm, your videos have also helped me to improve my relationship with rhythm. I just signed up for your list and downloaded the above transcription. Can't wait to apply it to the keys! Thank you so much for being here, and for doing what you're doing. - Andrew Colyer, New York
Another cool thing to practice. Thanks as always.
But first - channel theme - in 4 😂🤘🏻 you’re the best dude
This is exactly what gavin harrison talks about when he talks about using regular subdivision pulse to keep the listener grounded while playing any odd time signature. 1/4 note pulse over 7/8 , it goes even odd even second bar , by playing 1 1/4 note pulse over 5/8 your creating a common anchor point . that everything else can revolve around !! Its great practice. I awlays had issues hearing two bar phases of 5/8 in my head , when I stopped listening that way. I started to come together.
This is some gold. Thanks Nate. Gonna practice this stuff.
I always just listened to and played along with Bulgarian folk music and also practiced 4 over 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, & 13 to a click and vice versa 3 over 4 etc. Thanks for the video👍
You smile so much more when you count out loud while you're playing than just about anything else I've ever seen on your channel. lol
woah.. i think this might be a game changing video for me. thanks ;o
Wow the part about law and order and sopranos was very insightful. I had to pause the video for like five minutes and think about how that concept can be applied to my songwriting and not just my odd meter drumming. I think I may have to rewrite a few transitions to be less like “neat endings” and more like... sopranos endings idk... and keep listeners attention section to section. Thanks for putting that gem in my head.
Dude I don't even drum or play an instrument properly.
But programming in drum patterns all the time on my phone (especially on the toilet 😏), has really made me appreciate what actual drummers can do.
I even find myself randomly tapping my fingers and thumbs on random objects, always creating drum patterns.
The thing is, when I program them it's usually in 4/4, but when I'm doing it live I just have full control over all of it.
Seeing this video reminded me of that nasty habit I have, this is awesome! 💎
Enjoyable and informative as always. Thanks!
Best drum tutorial I have ever seen on RUclips. Thank you.
Love the Matt Cameron mentions!! Great vid 🤘 Thank you ⚡⚡
One thing that elevated those kind of exercises for me was when I felt the difference of playing the phrases over a count instead of counting over the phrases.
A simple variation to strengthen this feeling of the one (and the big beat), is adding accents. Both verbally and on the kit :)
Little rough in the morning, but I did enjoy it, and I appreciate your passion Drum Brother!
Very helpfull exersice! Thanks for the idea!
Great insight! Thank you and I’ll try it first thing in the morning.I’ll let you know how it went, although only the last minute it makes sense to me, maybe because I’ve understood only that by now. It is going to keep me busy for some time. I was always supposing how Donati is thinking it, and I guess it should be this way, only more simplified for us mortals.
Ow my brains. Sounds pretty sick though, I’ll have to give this a try
when i count seven I say "sev". one two three four five six sev one
Good tip. But I'm french. Problems start only with 14, quatorze.
@@ofdrumsandchords Ze
@@nicolechacon7323 Oh, good idea, I can use the trei -ze. Now, problems start at 17 ! But I'm not often confronted with this. My fellow musicians don't allow me to write arrangements in odd time signatures, as they think my arrangements in four are already pains in the ass (I'm a big fan of cuban music, obviously they are not).
Absolutely, that was a big step up for me w a small thing...the uniform single syllable count is huge
Odd meters - or how i like to call them: HOW TF DO YOU PLAY THIS
You can play in 4/4 so effortlessly because you've internalized 4/4 meter. You have to do that with every other meter as well, internalize it. Learn to play 200 songs in 7/8 and you'll be fine in 7/8. Jmho
Alternative description:
Step 1: don't know odd meter
Step 2: listen to King Gizzard a bunch
Step 3: ???
Step 4: You've internalized odd meter
This is really it. Anything you can practice will end up being learned, and odd meter isn't even particularly difficult with a bit of investment. Polyrhythms... now those can be hard on a level that requires much more prior engagement. Still, everything is possible.
Min huang Trout Mask Replica and Lick My Decals Off, Baby!
Absolutely. Intuition is key to odd meter. Manually calculating each measure is just non viable.
Bill Peart Right. It's all anectodal. I grew up mostly playing to songs in 6 (not a conscious effort at the time, it just so happened a lot of bands I like write songs in 6). When I tried holding down a basic 4/4 groove it was actually awkward for me for about a week.
But - playing snare on 1 is illegal :0
That’s only for clapping
You better let Ginger Baker know!!!
"Funk is on the one Baba!"
cbix unless you’re doing progressive stuff!
hahahaha .. great comment ;-)
Well the best exercise I found to play over the bar in odd metters is to play ostinatos right hand, 3s, 4s, 5s etc with simple kick snare pattern, then adding complexity on these two elements
Ofc with counting loud
Oh man, so well said and so true for me! Thank you!
Nate I really liked your playing in this video, usually I think jazz drums can be a little too floaty. Not so here. I love the channel.
I like to think of odd time phrased evenly until you come around to a common denominator. Or any even number combo + the remainder of the phrase. Like 2 bars of 7 = 14 beats + the 1. This can allow cool polyrhythmic groupings to emerge. Like 5 over 7. It also allows grooves to be displaced until the common denominator cycles through. As long as you can feel/count the longer phrases it can open up your world. One of my favorites is “The Grid” from Tigran Hamasyan. But a more simplistic example that grooves really hard is “Seven Days” by Sting. Cool video man! 🤘🏼😎
Love seven days. But The Grid is in 4 ;)
The 80/20 Drummer Haha! Yes! Indeed it is in 4. Unless you count it in some weird variation of 5/16 and close the phrase with the remainder. That’s what I’m saying though, is that odd times should feel like 4. In the case of “The Grid,” 4/4 feels odd, lol. Another cool time example is from the same Mockroot album, “To Negate.” I believe it’s in 13/8, but the beat is felt in 4/4 until enough bars come around to resolve it evenly. I love this kind of stuff! Thanks for the reply man! 🤘🏼😎
This is where marching-style grids really come in handy. Just playing it on a pad helps train your ear hear where the downbeat falls against odd groupings, whether in odd meter or not. Grids = help you play over the bar.
Yea the marching guys are great at this. Too bad my marching video got like 2000 views
Always great content, funny that the drum kit on the title page has wood hoops and today i just started making some for my kit.
I essentialy started out with odd time signatures (often, well into the upper-teens), completely unaware that it was, in any way, 'advanced'. On the contrary, I had a bad case of 'imposter syndrome' because of it. Eventually, I would learn to 'count' my natural oscillations. But I never got over the imposter syndrome... and was easily impressed to see someone just playing a simple 4/4 rhythm ('Why can't I sound disciplined and 'real' like that?'). But it's significant that I NEVER COUNTED until much later (that's why I am able to 'feel' odd meters to this day).
I laughed at how Shatnerian you sounded when describing the individual counts in the odd timings lol.
Mr sulu. Fire.
Awesome!!!! I play guitar and i like watch your videos , I learn a lot about rhythm.
Watched two of your vids and you mention so many of my fav drummers. So wierd
Please make us a video about John Teodore , specially about his Mars Volta's years!!
Great lesson Nate, as always!
I assume that your concept relies on the usage of polymeters. Am I right?
The most famous example of polymeters in pop music is Kashmir's riff over Bonzo's 4/4 groove ;)
👏🏽good analogies in the beginning there 🎶
Phil Collins makes odd time groove. Home by the sea 2 and Back in New York City groove so hard.
I love them, and I had little normal bars in my life. However I know the jail. I overcome a new challenge by splitting beats into triples, and a rest, keeping in mind where the 1 is. Over time I get the feeling and then I can play without loosing it.
Thank you.Continued success !
i don't think i'll ever play in these time signatures, but i know having a handle on them will greatly improve my playing overhead
Jon Onabowu smashing "Actual Proof" at 2:11!! Now there's an odd time roast
The key instructional piece for me, that is missing is, "where is this going?" At the end of our ramble in playing smaller units of time , in 2 or 4, over a grid of some odd time, 5 or 7 or whatever, we have to have the wherewithal/ presence of mind to be able to land with the other players, on the next important ensemble passage, or 1 of the bar. I didn't catch your approach. Are you counting in your head, "1 2 3 4 5 6 7:, or are you just "feeling a time/space pattern/ pulse"?. And how do you arrive together at the end of your bar-over-running', say , in 21 measures of 5? Just asking. Love your references, and you honesty and your humor..../
I love odd meters, I like a nice funky 15/16, I totally understand the bar line jail though, after a while you don't think of it as a jail cell, more like a bigger jail cell where you can do more, I like to play over the bar on a odd time, I don't really count odd times, its a feeling now, even times I haven't done before if I can feel it I can play it.
you and carter are go to for anything drums
Pheurst. Thank you for this new video
I really like 7/8. Thx for the content!
We are used to a lot of rythmic patterns in 4/4, but when it comes to odd time signatures, we have a choice between a neutral counting, or a specific pattern. In his method Contemporary drummer + 1, for the tune Island magic, Dave Weckl explains he counts 1 2 3 & (two quarters two pointed eights). It's a clave in 7/8. Very difficult. You can play salsa singing the son clave, or the rumba clave, but how are we supposed to sing a specific clave on any tune in 11 or 15 ?
I chose the neutral counting, that allows me to put the accents where I want and feel a particular pattern without being stuck to it. In "19 days", Gavin Harrison counts 7 7 5. Piece of cake.... till the music comes in !
“It’s a lot more boring right?”
No. You grooved harder and it made me bob my head when you phrased simpler. I think for odd meters you’re totally right about having more flowing phrasing but I wouldn’t necessarily make that a priority over making the tune bump in whatever meter. The average listener doesn’t play music, Ethelred blind to a lot of the nuance we think is important.
I kinda caught that too. I agree that it sounds less boring playing repetitively in even meters.
I am not a drum player, but this just showed me how much I don't know about music. Whenever I hear 7/8, 5/8 and other odd meters I get lost in counting the beats... :/
Exactly. I watch a lot of bass drum and piano channels. Music is music.
Great instruction! Another helpful idea- Download this video; Download Music Speed Changer App; Listen to this at a slower tempo and begin slammin' the odd meters. 👍
May I ask if there is a special reason why you put that Tama S.L.P. kit on the video cover ? ( Or is it called "thumbnail ? " )
Just curious.
greetings,...and stay healthy !
When I hear jazz in an odd time signature, I just don’t know where the down beat is
I find many of your videos interesting to watch and listen to and some instructional, but I didn't find this one helpful. In fact, when you got to the "2 bar phrases over 5" bit around 6:00 and I started ignoring the count on screen and instead started my own count, I found them to be just basic 4/4 (with the snare on 1) and the 5/4 might have been happening underneath, but there was no sense of that pulse. In effect, I didn't find these to have a 5/4 feel at all, and if there were accompaniment with this with other musicians who had an actual 5/4 feel, I think if I played this way, they would want to kill me - except of course in limited parts where it felt interesting - but the whole feel? Nah. I think it's really more about learning how to Feel 5/4 or 7 or whatever and less about how to play feeling 4/4 while counting 5/4, which feels like cheating and missing the point of the odd meter to begin with since you are really just playing even meter anyway. Maybe I'm completely off here and don't know what I'm talking about - but my $.02 nonetheless.
I agree, I think putting the 5 on the kick, snare, left foot or combination while adding 2 or 3-bar long phrases on top of that would be a better way to practice. Many odd meters have started to feel very comfortable to me after listening to and playing odd meters for so long that doing fills that go over the bar feels pretty intuitive. Also most of these examples are basically just polymeters which is another level of complexity added if you're just trying to be able to play longer phrases in odd meters.
not sure if my level of drumming allows me to have a word on this, but i think i'm pretty fluent in odd time sigs. what worked for me i guess was ingesting an insane amount of danny carey drumming and improvising with my band, all this over a pretty long period of time with consistence. then again, i'm a pretty-much-self-taught drummer of a post-rock/alternative band so i just kinda figured it out for myself
crifox16 Same here, though I've never played in a band. However, thanks both to playing a lot of Soundgarden and, more importantly, Tool, and to my general interest causing me to practice odd times, I can jump into pretty much any one I want (including off-sixteenths!), and it's pretty satisfying to have a skill subset that's fairly rare like that. Helps make up for much of lumbering oaf I am when it comes to speed.
I am fortunate to have played in the fusion years.. odd times are fairly natural to us old goats.. Hey what were the names of the three jazz drummers you mentioned? I could not quite make them out thanks :)
Bill -
Marcus Gilmore plays drums with the Vijay Iyer Trio.
Gilad Hekselman is a jazz guitarist. I think he's played with a variety of drummers but Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and Jeff Ballard come to mind.
Tigran Hamasyan is a pianist. I'm not as familiar with his music and am not sure which drummers he's worked with.
Cheers!
@@philipthoennes4546 Thank you a bit late lol.. Love your videos.. both the knowledge as well as the humor.. Young drummers don't know how good they have it today regarding the internet.. I had a radio 😉🥁
Great video mate 👌
0:53 who?
Vijay Iyer Trio (Marcus Gilmore on drums, Stephan Crump on bass)
Matthew Waterman thank you!
I always found odd time signatures exciting. I never got boxed into thinking of music as only naturally phrasing into 4/4. Within odd time... rhythmic phrases become as unique and interesting as melodic phrases, which are obviously not always sung in even quarter or eighth note phrases. Bill Bruford, Phil Collins and Neil Peart helped me regularly escape the 4/4 prison of popular music.
Ha, love Anger management!
Sting had an old song with Vinnie “I hung my head” , it shows that keeping a accent on the down beat while the rest of the limbs follow the language somewhere else can have a pretty simple, but audible difference..
Cool lesson!
Nice approach! One question, what is the name of the drummer / group at 10:32? I know you said it but i couldn't figure it out. Thank you!
I didn't watch the hole thing but if you didn't talk about grouping, then to make your life easier when soloing or improvise in general break the time signature in to groups for example: 7/4 1234 123 5/4 123 12. Like that i found it more comfortable.
great vid
this gives me a cool idea: when playing 4/4 you can have the hihat or ride doing a 7 beat phrasing to really make things interesting
Well, now you know what a polyrythm is lol
@@miguelrengifo5491 oh right, duh XD
Tried phrases of 4 over 9/8 the other day. #fail... Probably much like when I'm gonna have to solo in 17 on Tuesday 🤦🏼 anyway.. can be nice to hide the skip beat in the middle of the bar. So if for example you're in 7/8, turn that into 14/16, grouped 3,3,2,3,3 to make a sort of clave to phrase around. Which means you'll naturally phrase over the barline every time. From there you know that you can play in constant groups of three as long as you throw in a group of 2 anywhere in the bar.... And that's my secret for getting everyone on the gig lost.. including myself 🧐
I loved the similes at the beginning. I found them to be very accurate
thank you!
Cool Bro...
Superb!
I grew up listening to big band and jazz then moved on to other time signatures so it came naturally to me, I guess, no idea. I guess I don't think about it anymore.
Good job.
I don’t have much trouble with 7 or 5 but when it’s comes to meters like 15/16 or 19/16, 18/8 and so on I get really confused
I worked out playing in 5 listening to and shedding on James Black stuff
0:41 Gilad Hekselman, Tigran and who was the first one?
vijay iyer
It's perfectly doable not to think about a 4/4 count but are you saying that you would be able to do any odd signature without counting it? Is it simply a case of practice?? I never was any good with numbers...
Since this is my favorite thing, I've found one major thing to help with it is to work on polyrhythms. Say you start with layering some kind of 3/8 or 3/16 lead over a straight time beat, or a 1/4 note lead over a 7/8 or 9/8, and get yourself used to the oscillation that results from it; it will help develop the ability to count "on top" of what you're playing, so to speak, so that you might play around a bit without hitting a specific reference beat, but still maintain the count in your head.
Even just trying for a minute or two each time you're improvising; that's pretty much what I've been doing, and I can do some pretty neat stuff on the fly with it now; plus, if you want to do wacky stuff like play something that comes to 29/8 or 37/8, it can really exercise your mental math.
Yeah Man. But you said My Buddies name Vijay iyer. Good lord. We were bandmates. Great Video thank you!
my prediction is that you're going to say play over the barline
NAILED IT
At 5:27 You say you are going to play a two beat phrase - but when you play I'm hearing two three beat phrases, and then random stuff that sounds three beat to me: 1 2and3, 1 2and3, 1and2 3, 1and2 3and, 1 2 3and, 1 2and3,
I'm confuse, sorry
Hey, can anybody tell what the trashy stack is being used to the right of the bass drum? I think I know what the top cymbal is, a Zildjian EFX crash, but I don’t know what the bottom one is. Thanks.
im no drummer, does 80/20 mean anything? there is also a band i know called 30/70 that is heavily rhythm based, it almost leads me to believe they are related to the same concept.
Your channer is very underrated.
I really learn more on your channel than on any other much bigger channels like drumeo.
You really know how to get in the head of a struggling drummer to find weak spots
is there a full version of your intro, good video btw
Hi thanks for the lesson. I'm a beginner and can read notation. But on your download there are these numbered things on top of each bar: eg 5:35", 6:10", 6.44". Can you or one of the commenters explain what this is.. sorry for my ignorance. It's probably very obvious.