This is wonderful. I never questioned that Tolkien was influenced by Platonism & Neoplatonism, in a kind of grand unifying sweep that encompasses both schools.
Great vid. Tolkien was absolutely "familiar" with Greek/Roman mythology. Like all "academics" of his time and for the preceding 3000 years, he could read/write Greek/Latin. He even makes mention of first reading the "The Iliad" getting lost within the world and never really ever leaving again. He put a thick varnish of Germanic language and imagery on top of his own mythology, but he was touching on the same universally "applicable" themes that Plato first put to the page. This "applicability" was the bedrock of Tolkien's writing and the reason his works are so widely and well-received. Cheers.
Also. Heaven and hell are Pagan ideas that Catholics and Christians copied, based mostly on Elysium and Tartarus. So even if Tolkien did mention heaven and hell it would also be Pagan, and pre-Christian
What is the Norse text you are referring to in the beginning of the video? i cannot make it out. I have found those same Dwarwen names in Snorres Edda. Some of the earliest christian texts, maybe before they could be consider christian also states that there is a One God and from him emanates lesser gods, our world is in those text created by a lesser, evil god. Great video.
This is such a good presentation, I don't want to quibble over details. Tolkein was very much influenced by Norse mythology and Plato, as well as his friend CS Lewis (but that's another video). Spot on about Tolkein's use of reincarnation as a plot device, if not a key component in his made-up, hodge-podge Anglo-Saxon mythology. As one commentor has said, the Hebrew Shema affirms that their God is One. And that the doctrine of the Trinity also affirms that God is One in three Persons, not three gods and not One God manifesting in three, which is a heresy called modalism. I'd also point out that monotheism is a thorn in the side of Christianity because it is not biblical. Monotheism is an idea from the Enlightenment. The biblical peoples believed in many gods, even the early Christians. See St Paul's presentation in Athens in the Books of Acts and in his letter to the Ephesians (6:12). Perhaps our modern western sensibilities do not want to wrestle with the ideas of reincarnation and the existence of a multi-layered spiritual world.
Good points, but I'm rejecting the idea of the Biblical God as being the Platonic One. Its just simply not possible. I know Christians Platonists like to say that, but its ridiculous. That's a debate that's been raging for centuries and it won't be solved here on RUclips.
The Atlantis parallel was obvious from the start. I don't debate this stuff with people, so I just assumed it was supposed to be an Atlantis parallel but I supposed you could argue the point based around whether the fall was due to corruption or nature. It seems like in both worlds, it was corruption that lead to the downfall. The Lucifer parallel with the main villain is very obvious too ( the jealous one). I don't think it should be viewed as a Christian verses pagan issue. It's a straight up tail of universal truths and those never change, even if religions do.
Nice another initiated to "the secret that can't be told" I had this "idea" really recently that the TWO towers are the state and the church, the church inhabited by saruman, who had good intention but because of the blindness from the people and their "weakness" turned from the wise, pure and clear (spirituality) to many colored, confusing and decieving(religion), I could go into more detail but you get the idea, also I noticed in my the two tower princip is really present, 2 of religion and 2 of state or Big cooperations and they stand out in hight like all present all seeing entities, however I live in an "important" place, Switzerland, basicly a if not the operation basis of both sauron and saruman (keep in mind that the Vatican is guided by swisssoldiers) Also my city is full of "magic"symbols, only visible to those who see, Its always buffeling to me how strong the veils are to those who do not see, hidden but not hidden. I can't even comprehend how I was once blind to it. The trinity however does not contradict the one, the confusion of the blind is the issue. You could say "1 +1=2=3=1" or something
I have heard about the Ring of Gyges and of course, the myth of Atlantis. It is the elves who reincarnate in Tolkien's mythology. It seems to methat Gandalf resurrects because he turns from gray to white. Your argument about hobbits reincarnating is weak. I think they were possessed by the deceased in the barrow downs. So, they retrieve old daggers from the Dunedain? That does not mean they reincarnate. Sam comes back from his quest. He does not reincarnate. They don't live in burial grounds, they live in sustainable holes in the ground. Sauron comes back because the ring is not destroyed. Not because he reincarnates. It's as if the ring is his only Horcrux. (Harry Potter) He simply takes on different forms as the Maiar can do.
In the old tradition, going into the burial mound and retrieving items from your previous life was important. This would be accompanied by a reawakening of your old memories. To gain entry you need to recite the password. The password was your previous name. You can see Gandalf remembers it, when Aragorn and company call him by that name. This awakens his memory. You have to pay attention to the symbolism to get it. Or you can read Tolkien's letters.
Excepting reincarnation, most of that is part of Christianity and so is not in competition. Christianity, even in the Bible, ties sins to lusts that enslave people. The ring has always struck me as being from Plato (it's too obvious), but this view of lusts (just search "passions" and "sins", bc "passions" are another translation of epimythia) has simply always been a part of Christianity. "Monotheism" like people usually mean it is a product of the 18th century Enlightenment. Christianity has always had angels and demons. In the east, salvation is characterized as "theosis," a becoming God. St. Athanasius summed up the incarnation as "God became man so that man might become God." There are elemental spirits in positive and negative senses in the Bible. The "stoicheia tou kosmou" in Gal 4.3 are negative, but when you see references to stars leaping for joy or the winds praising God in the OT, it's positive. Tolkien's One is simply not the One of classical Platonism. It is only sensible by way of Christianity. The One is not a person, does not act. Tolkien's Illuvitar does. He creates the world and that Valar create in imitation (including Morgoth). Creation is something done by the Demiurge in Platonism. Tolkien's One is thoroughly in the vein of the early Christian reworkings of Platonism, not in the vein of the original, Plotinus, or Aristotle. Moreover, Tolkien melds the biblical Flood and Atlantis together in Numenor. In the biblical account, the fallen angels descend and take human wives. They have monstrous offspring who distort the spiritual nature of their fathers, and they turn the people from worshiping God to worshiping them. These elements just aren't anywhere in Plato's Atlantis. The hybrids aren't that prominent but the turn to a false god is very much part of the text. If anything, this shows he may have read Charles' translation of I Enoch in addition to Plato (though it may be just the Bible). The only element in your video that isn't both Christian and Platonist in its outlook is reincarnation. This doens't mean that it isn't platonist, but more that most of the time the two aren't in competition. Even reincarnation is reputed to be in Origen. His actual works deny it, but the works of Origen (who was a Platonist and a Catholic) as they circulated in Tolkien's day would portray him as supporting it based on quotations by his enemies. The really interesting question, then, is "Was Tolkien an Origenist?" If he was, then all of the elements belong in both categories.
As I said in the video the Christian God is a Trinity and cannot ever be confused with "The One." All-Father is a Pagan term not a Christian term. "In the biblical account, the fallen angels descend and take human wives. They have monstrous offspring..." These elements are NOT in Tolkien either.
@@countvanbruno182 I understand your argument to be "He is a Platonist, therefore he is not a Christian Platonist, because the two are incompatible." The argument is rooted in a false dichotomy. Drawing on one doesn't preclude drawing on others. First, on Enoch, I didn't actually say that all those elements were in Tolkien. I gave a summary of the story. The element I did line up was the worship of a false God. That is not in Plato's Atlantis. You did something similar with your description of the story of Atlantis. Not all the elements you recounted were in the story, but that doesn't count against his borrowing from it. The two stories are quite similar and easy to mix and match. Regarding "the One," it and "Trinity" have existed in the same works for a very, very long time. You are asserting that they cannot be used together, but the fact remains that they historically have been, and you have given no reason to think Tolkien thought them at odds. Rather, we have good reason to believe Tolkien did not. Dennis (Dionysius the Areopagite) wrote a book "The Divine Names," and one of those was "the One," but it was also a Trinitarian work. It presented the world order in a Platonist hierarchy of mediated being. It was wildly popular in the Middle Ages in Latin translation. It remains an important source for Roman Catholic theology to this day. Tolkien, being both a Medievalist and Roman Catholic, overlapped Dionysius in both areas. I don't see any reason to think Tolkien considered the two terms to be in tension. You may believe they are, but that has little bearing on whether he did. You have a very good argument that Tolkien was a Platonist. Your argument that his Platonism is not colored through Christian sources is strained, at best.
"I don't see anything Catholic in this." Then you're making the same mistake the Greeks did, and the same mistake the Christians made with regard to the Greeks. Transcendence (Christian) and immanence (Greek), as well as divine unity AND multiplicity are all metaphysically true. However, no one mode of expression is capable of representing all these truths at one and the same time, and so different expressions assign different weights to these truths---while still preserving that which is de-emphasised, but recoverable, for those with the wisdom to see, hear, and learn.
Good discussion of an underappreciated influence on Tolkien! Sadly, I did notice one small mistake. The Norse poem that contains the list of Dwarf names is actually the Voluspa: musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2015/07/hobbit-origins-catalog-of-dwarves.html?m=1. But hey, that's just a sidelight here in this video.
Great video, would love to see you make more videos on Tolkien
Such a peaceful and enchanting voice and with beautiful music, thank you brother i really enjoyed this.
This is wonderful. I never questioned that Tolkien was influenced by Platonism & Neoplatonism, in a kind of grand unifying sweep that encompasses both schools.
Great vid. Tolkien was absolutely "familiar" with Greek/Roman mythology. Like all "academics" of his time and for the preceding 3000 years, he could read/write Greek/Latin. He even makes mention of first reading the "The Iliad" getting lost within the world and never really ever leaving again. He put a thick varnish of Germanic language and imagery on top of his own mythology, but he was touching on the same universally "applicable" themes that Plato first put to the page. This "applicability" was the bedrock of Tolkien's writing and the reason his works are so widely and well-received. Cheers.
The Kalavela, Finland's national poem, was also an influence on Tolkien.
Numenor and the one ring = atlantis and the ring of gyges
Great video.
The deep electronic sound/music during the bit on Plato, what is it? Great thinking music
Just an ambient loop I came up with. I may consider putting it on my bandcamp if you like.
I love this analysis I think you should also analyze the Silmarillion and see the gnostic aspects of it
I have one planned for that
Also. Heaven and hell are Pagan ideas that Catholics and Christians copied, based mostly on Elysium and Tartarus. So even if Tolkien did mention heaven and hell it would also be Pagan, and pre-Christian
sounds good
This is true I’ve noticed this through Tolkiens works as well
very well done
Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad!
The Blessed Trinity is One.
very cool video
a piece of art, with your music, the narrating and the fairy ideas!!!
What is the Norse text you are referring to in the beginning of the video? i cannot make it out. I have found those same Dwarwen names in Snorres Edda.
Some of the earliest christian texts, maybe before they could be consider christian also states that there is a One God and from him emanates lesser gods, our world is in those text created by a lesser, evil god.
Great video.
"The Gylfaginning" www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm
He was heavily influenced by Irish mythology also
So basically it’s like he took western history, culture and mythology and put it in a blender threw the mixture into the oven baked a cake out of it
This is such a good presentation, I don't want to quibble over details. Tolkein was very much influenced by Norse mythology and Plato, as well as his friend CS Lewis (but that's another video). Spot on about Tolkein's use of reincarnation as a plot device, if not a key component in his made-up, hodge-podge Anglo-Saxon mythology.
As one commentor has said, the Hebrew Shema affirms that their God is One. And that the doctrine of the Trinity also affirms that God is One in three Persons, not three gods and not One God manifesting in three, which is a heresy called modalism.
I'd also point out that monotheism is a thorn in the side of Christianity because it is not biblical. Monotheism is an idea from the Enlightenment. The biblical peoples believed in many gods, even the early Christians. See St Paul's presentation in Athens in the Books of Acts and in his letter to the Ephesians (6:12).
Perhaps our modern western sensibilities do not want to wrestle with the ideas of reincarnation and the existence of a multi-layered spiritual world.
Good points, but I'm rejecting the idea of the Biblical God as being the Platonic One. Its just simply not possible. I know Christians Platonists like to say that, but its ridiculous. That's a debate that's been raging for centuries and it won't be solved here on RUclips.
The Atlantis parallel was obvious from the start. I don't debate this stuff with people, so I just assumed it was supposed to be an Atlantis parallel but I supposed you could argue the point based around whether the fall was due to corruption or nature. It seems like in both worlds, it was corruption that lead to the downfall. The Lucifer parallel with the main villain is very obvious too ( the jealous one). I don't think it should be viewed as a Christian verses pagan issue. It's a straight up tail of universal truths and those never change, even if religions do.
Nice another initiated to "the secret that can't be told" I had this "idea" really recently that the TWO towers are the state and the church, the church inhabited by saruman, who had good intention but because of the blindness from the people and their "weakness" turned from the wise, pure and clear (spirituality) to many colored, confusing and decieving(religion), I could go into more detail but you get the idea, also I noticed in my the two tower princip is really present, 2 of religion and 2 of state or Big cooperations and they stand out in hight like all present all seeing entities, however I live in an "important" place, Switzerland, basicly a if not the operation basis of both sauron and saruman (keep in mind that the Vatican is guided by swisssoldiers)
Also my city is full of "magic"symbols, only visible to those who see, Its always buffeling to me how strong the veils are to those who do not see, hidden but not hidden. I can't even comprehend how I was once blind to it. The trinity however does not contradict the one, the confusion of the blind is the issue. You could say "1 +1=2=3=1" or something
Lord of the rings = cult of saturn
I have heard about the Ring of Gyges and of course, the myth of Atlantis. It is the elves who reincarnate in Tolkien's mythology. It seems to methat Gandalf resurrects because he turns from gray to white. Your argument about hobbits reincarnating is weak. I think they were possessed by the deceased in the barrow downs. So, they retrieve old daggers from the Dunedain? That does not mean they reincarnate. Sam comes back from his quest. He does not reincarnate. They don't live in burial grounds, they live in sustainable holes in the ground. Sauron comes back because the ring is not destroyed. Not because he reincarnates. It's as if the ring is his only Horcrux. (Harry Potter) He simply takes on different forms as the Maiar can do.
In the old tradition, going into the burial mound and retrieving items from your previous life was important. This would be accompanied by a reawakening of your old memories. To gain entry you need to recite the password. The password was your previous name. You can see Gandalf remembers it, when Aragorn and company call him by that name. This awakens his memory. You have to pay attention to the symbolism to get it. Or you can read Tolkien's letters.
Excepting reincarnation, most of that is part of Christianity and so is not in competition.
Christianity, even in the Bible, ties sins to lusts that enslave people. The ring has always struck me as being from Plato (it's too obvious), but this view of lusts (just search "passions" and "sins", bc "passions" are another translation of epimythia) has simply always been a part of Christianity.
"Monotheism" like people usually mean it is a product of the 18th century Enlightenment. Christianity has always had angels and demons. In the east, salvation is characterized as "theosis," a becoming God. St. Athanasius summed up the incarnation as "God became man so that man might become God." There are elemental spirits in positive and negative senses in the Bible. The "stoicheia tou kosmou" in Gal 4.3 are negative, but when you see references to stars leaping for joy or the winds praising God in the OT, it's positive.
Tolkien's One is simply not the One of classical Platonism. It is only sensible by way of Christianity. The One is not a person, does not act. Tolkien's Illuvitar does. He creates the world and that Valar create in imitation (including Morgoth). Creation is something done by the Demiurge in Platonism. Tolkien's One is thoroughly in the vein of the early Christian reworkings of Platonism, not in the vein of the original, Plotinus, or Aristotle.
Moreover, Tolkien melds the biblical Flood and Atlantis together in Numenor. In the biblical account, the fallen angels descend and take human wives. They have monstrous offspring who distort the spiritual nature of their fathers, and they turn the people from worshiping God to worshiping them. These elements just aren't anywhere in Plato's Atlantis. The hybrids aren't that prominent but the turn to a false god is very much part of the text. If anything, this shows he may have read Charles' translation of I Enoch in addition to Plato (though it may be just the Bible).
The only element in your video that isn't both Christian and Platonist in its outlook is reincarnation. This doens't mean that it isn't platonist, but more that most of the time the two aren't in competition. Even reincarnation is reputed to be in Origen. His actual works deny it, but the works of Origen (who was a Platonist and a Catholic) as they circulated in Tolkien's day would portray him as supporting it based on quotations by his enemies. The really interesting question, then, is "Was Tolkien an Origenist?" If he was, then all of the elements belong in both categories.
As I said in the video the Christian God is a Trinity and cannot ever be confused with "The One." All-Father is a Pagan term not a Christian term.
"In the biblical account, the fallen angels descend and take human wives. They have monstrous offspring..." These elements are NOT in Tolkien either.
@@countvanbruno182 I understand your argument to be "He is a Platonist, therefore he is not a Christian Platonist, because the two are incompatible." The argument is rooted in a false dichotomy. Drawing on one doesn't preclude drawing on others.
First, on Enoch, I didn't actually say that all those elements were in Tolkien. I gave a summary of the story. The element I did line up was the worship of a false God. That is not in Plato's Atlantis. You did something similar with your description of the story of Atlantis. Not all the elements you recounted were in the story, but that doesn't count against his borrowing from it. The two stories are quite similar and easy to mix and match.
Regarding "the One," it and "Trinity" have existed in the same works for a very, very long time. You are asserting that they cannot be used together, but the fact remains that they historically have been, and you have given no reason to think Tolkien thought them at odds. Rather, we have good reason to believe Tolkien did not. Dennis (Dionysius the Areopagite) wrote a book "The Divine Names," and one of those was "the One," but it was also a Trinitarian work. It presented the world order in a Platonist hierarchy of mediated being. It was wildly popular in the Middle Ages in Latin translation. It remains an important source for Roman Catholic theology to this day. Tolkien, being both a Medievalist and Roman Catholic, overlapped Dionysius in both areas. I don't see any reason to think Tolkien considered the two terms to be in tension. You may believe they are, but that has little bearing on whether he did.
You have a very good argument that Tolkien was a Platonist. Your argument that his Platonism is not colored through Christian sources is strained, at best.
"I don't see anything Catholic in this." Then you're making the same mistake the Greeks did, and the same mistake the Christians made with regard to the Greeks. Transcendence (Christian) and immanence (Greek), as well as divine unity AND multiplicity are all metaphysically true. However, no one mode of expression is capable of representing all these truths at one and the same time, and so different expressions assign different weights to these truths---while still preserving that which is de-emphasised, but recoverable, for those with the wisdom to see, hear, and learn.
Good discussion of an underappreciated influence on Tolkien! Sadly, I did notice one small mistake. The Norse poem that contains the list of Dwarf names is actually the Voluspa: musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2015/07/hobbit-origins-catalog-of-dwarves.html?m=1. But hey, that's just a sidelight here in this video.
Its also in the Gylfaginning as I stated in the video. Please see the link www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm
@@countvanbruno182 O.K., all good then.