These conversations are important to move the industry forward. It may not always produce new results, but definitely helps eliminate some potential problems, saying something out loud always produces better thought. Thanks.
As soon as Mitchell started talking about paper wrappers vs. shrink I knew exactly where he was going. Several times I've caught the corner of a card when peeling the shrink off and damaged it even though I'm someone who is extremely careful during unboxing. I've come to appreciate paper wrappers much more in light of that.
What a great take on this topic. Truly appreciate the insight into some of the why behind decisions that are made. Mitchell is a fantastic guest and I’m really looking forward to part 2!
Component lists are especially useful when buying and selling used games, to check that all the components are there. Some components are impossible to identify from those lists, except by counting all the "square red tokens" to discover that those are the "27 action tokens" or whatever. A more useful list would describe "27 red square Action Tokens".
Onirim and its siblings are one of my favorite examples of beauty and whimsy. Even the packaging, the way the box opens up and unfolds to reveal the tray tells a little story. It's gorgeous.
I'd love to see a publisher create the base game in a lean/tightly packed box and then sell the expansion in a box big enough to move the base game too. That way you're only paying for the bigger box when you love the game enough to buy an expansion. You could even do that multiple times so that as the game grows, it moves from box to box like a hermit crab.
I can see where you’re coming from. The issue is that it would significantly increase the cost of the expansion so close to the cost of the game that customers would balk at it (it’s not just the cost of the box, but also the cost of freight shipping the box).
That only somewhat works if you have one expansion. You really think you should increase the size of the box with each expansion? Doesn't sound very realistic.
I still cannot believe how much more 'real' my prototypes feel when the corners of the cards/boards are rounded. It is like magic, so fully agree with you there!
Thanks guys, great talk! In terms of box size, I have to say that I actually prefer a deeper box, because slim boxes are opening up when you put them vertically on the shelf. In other words, the lid is drifting away from the box bottom after a short amount of time, and the content of the box is then piling up, so that you cannot just press them together, you need to actually take the whole box from the shelf and reorder the content and then be able to close the lid. For me as a person who always puts vertically the games on the shelf is this an important topic. Slim boxes like the ones from Clans of Caledonia or Brass Birmingham are beautiful to look at, but so cumbersome to put on the shelf. Deeper boxes don't have that problem as the lid produces enough pressure to hold the content in place. I hope game designer will rather consider deeper boxes in the future.
I think it is important to have the goal of the game and the game end conditions early in the rulebook. There are some games (First Rat and Ovation come to mind) that there are so many interesting and rewarding actions in the game that you lose sight of the game end condition and the game goes on forever.
I've always poked fun at Point Salad's box size. The entire game fits perfectly in half of the box, which is split by a cardboard divider. I understand that it was most likely a standard box size that was easy to just re skin for the game.
That's a good observation! There definitely are cases where the graphic designer has a template for previous games and using it can reduce the chances of missing an important detail (and we have heard that people like when similar games line up cleanly on their shelf).
Hyperborea is a game that uses wooden cubes and kinda needed to - the cubes are coloured and placed on tracks to generate effects but the cubes are drawn at random from your bag. So they can’t be different shapes and sizes and they have to feel identical to the touch.
I have so many comments of so many other games that do what you are referencing that are sooooo good! But I kept thinking of other games as you moved on so I’ll just go with the last one here that I felt compelled to bring here. Potions of Azerland, which has a winner of the World Series of board gaming as the designer, does a triple layered board. As the consumer, you put them together with plastic rivets that normally get used for a spinner. Oros also did this for their boards. There is no glue and so risk of warping is low. But Potions is notable because the artist is Andrew Bosley. Love his stuff!!! It’s such a beautiful mid to lighter weight game. I am excited for that one to fulfill. Thanks for the video!
Along with boxes for packaging, a small touch that all games with a box should have the small rounded notches to make opening the box easier, and it also increases accessibility for those who make have trouble with their hands.
Interesting topic. As a game consumer, I will honestly admit that IMOP, theme, material's, and table presence sells a game to me while mechanics and gameplay make me fall in love with it and get it to the table. Not trying to blow smoke, but this is why SM games are so common on my shelf AND my table.
I love Easter Eggs in games, they're fun to find. Xia: Legends of a Drift System is one of my favourites for Easter Eggs (and of course the Easter Eggs in Stonemaier Games). Although I agree that having Easter Eggs in certain games could break the thematic immersion, so they're definitely not appropriate for every game. I'm super klutzy. I'm that person who knocks the table, so I always appreciate dual-layered boards! 😆
CGE likes to have the 'some assembly required' dual layer player boards in their games, where you have to fold and place the glue dots. I've seen it at least in Starship Captains and Kutna Hora. I'd agree and say they're a great middle ground! Kutna Hora is also one of the first games to feature 're-wood'. Its recycled wood and binder, and its able to make really detailed models!
I love the way the components sit in Scythe and Expeditions. We were playing Stamp Swap yesterday and it was super hard to count my daughter's empty spaces on the mat. There is some kind of spacing issue and the stamps slide around a bit as you play. (We play on the kitchen table because we have a small place and have no room for a dedicated gaming table.) I think the grid boxes are slightly larger than the stamps. We both agreed after trying to make it work that it is a problem. We love the game though. I love how SM thinks about slight issues in their games. Again, with Stamp Swap, it is hard for me to use the score track because the scoring boxes are not uniform in size. It wouldn't have been an issue for me before I had vision processing problems but now that I do, every time I score I have to check it 2 times to make sure that I did it correctly. That might just be a me problem but I thought I would mention it in case it helps. Love the topics. Love the idea of small rule books and love video options on how to play. We had never played Gloomhaven before but we played through GH: JOTL and are super impressed at how this taught us the game. It gave us the flavour and got us ready to move on to the full games. I feel like is the same thing as in Apiary and also how we learned Scythe. We are still learning Scythe bit by bit. We are through everything but Fenris and the modular board. Love this type of learning and expansion building where it gets just a bit more difficult. Thank you for making these videos and having such great games. One more thing, Rolling Realms introduced so many new games to us. Thank you! Also, the new dice are cool. Love mixing them with the old dice.
I appreciate that feedback about Stamp Swap! You're right that the cells in the grid are just slightly too big (to account for small differences in cardboard size). That's interesting to hear about the score track--I hadn't thought of that!
Jamey, have you looked at Kutna Hora's dual-layered player boards? They're two boards that the players essentially screw or push-pin together. I thought that was a genius way to get around needing to pre-manufacture the boards together. They also utilize recycled wood for their pieces which look wonderful - seems really on brand for Stonemaier as well.
I haven't seen them, but that's a really clever way to do it. CGE used an innovative method for such boards in SETI too. I'd love it if they shared their rewood tech!
I definitely prefer boxes to perfectly fit the content, or perfectly fit with a functional insert. Splendor is way too big of a box. Parks was amazing. I actually like The White Castle, I can get everything to just fit. It is great for people with limited shelf space, and nice when bringing a game to game night. I don’t mind baggies if it means having a smaller box. I would happily put together all dual-layer boards like in Sky Team. I find it really special to punch out everything, it’s an “intimate” part of getting a new game. Having to construct some of the game makes it even more special! I am most likely doing that before anyone else is sitting at the table, so the added time isn’t an issue. Personally, I will always want wooden pieces, even if they are cubes. If a game has minis I usually immediately look away and have no interest. Custom wood pieces (Parks) is definitely the most premium in my eye, screen-printed or not. And definitely, set-up and overview need to be on the back of the rule book. Good player aids for all players! I am fine not having a starting setup like Wingspan had. But since that is targeted at non-gamers, I think that was an awesome thing to include for those kinds of medium complexity “gateway” games. If there’s one thing I want most is proper sized boxes! I don’t care if everything is a different shape, but make it fit the components with as little air as possible! I kind of wish there was a format like A4 paper, where A3 is double, A5 is half, etc. If every box was a Ticket to Ride size, or half, or double, or 1/16th, etc., then everyone’s collection could be organized quite easily.
White castle is a horrible box. Also many games uses larger boxes to fit future content they have planned. Doing it your way would just mean you'd have to have a seperate box even for small expansions. I would hate that.
@@nihlify Or you could just make a box fit a complete and finished game perfectly. I feel cheated when a game has a ton of extra space or slots for extra content they have already planned. I also think that expansions are rarely worth it. As per The White Castle, I can’t tell if Matcha would fit or not, but I think with some careful planning it could.
I think the inserts very often are missing an important thing that is allowing the cards be sleeved, for lot of hobbyist the game is an expensive thing that we want to take care and usually I have to drop the insert because the cards just don't fit when they are sleeved, and is not because in the box is not enough space
Such a great video, especially for newer studios. Maybe it’s in part 2, but I would be interested to know the perspective on foreign versus domestic suppliers. We want our first game to be made 100% US but the difference in price is insane.
That's just the nature of manufacturing--it isn't just about the cost. The types of components that many games feature just aren't even made in the US.
I find many plastic inserts more annoying than useful, primarily when trying to store/carry games vertically. Much prefer a simple cardboard trough or divider and some plastic baggies. I do love it when games use pretty /custom components though, makes the playing experience better and more memorable for me.
I agree. Like 9/10 inserts doesn't work vertically even when they look neatly designed. Better to do the Uwe Rosenberg style and just give us plenty bags instead if you have lots of small components.
I really appreciated when Wingspan had a tutorial built in to show how to play. I think more games that have more complex rules sets should have tutorials. Also, providing some hints at strategy may be useful. I know that it’s fun to figure out how to do well in a game is great. The fact is, however, that I’m unlikely to iterate enough to be able to play it better. Thoughts?
I totally understand the need for some games to be beautiful. I’m working on a game that is so simple to learn and easy to play that people are generally caught off guard when they’re confronted by its depth and complexity. I’ve realized that I need to re-theme/re-brand the game to better visually convey its depth and crunchiness. I’m kind of a a loss thematically. Do you change for consultations?
That's smart of you to pair the theme and aesthetics with the depth of the game. I always design with mechanisms and theme hand in hand--I'm not good at adding the theme later. :) Here's information about consultation: stonemaiergames.com/about/advice-and-consultation/
Hi Jamey. Several times in this discussion the cost of producing a fancy component comes up as a limiting factor (custom dice, dual layer boards) but a real cost - or even a common range - is never mentioned. Is this not expanded on for secrecy reasons, is the cost per unit so variable between games (and dependent on size of print run) that it's just not useful to speculate on, or something else? I am always interested in the specifics and would prefer to hear "it could be $5-10 per copy for this" as a reason a publisher might not upgrade that component rather than a mysterious "cost is a factor".
The cost is incredibly variable based on the exact composition, size, unit quantity, manufacturer, etc. Plus, I just don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every component cost. Like, if you asked me for the cost of 1 dual-layered mat in Scythe, I know that it's around 4x more expensive than a standard 1.5mm player mat, but I would be estimating the exact cost of either at best. When we get estimates from our manufacturer, every component isn't itemized--I'm given a cost for the entire product, and it's only when I specifically ask for an itemized component that I see the cost. The cost makes an impression on me--enough that I can speak about it publicly--but I don't know the exact cost by heart, and it's far too variable based on those factors I mentioned to broadcast it with any semblance of accuracy or responsibility. If a publisher says that "cost is a factor", it means that the component in question will add at least $5 to the consumer price of the game.
I personally prefer less plastic in my boardgames, unless that plastic can justify itself through utility - it's kinda a climate guilt thing. So I was quite happy with all the plastic inside Scythe - the insert organised stuff well, and the plastic mechs and minis felt in proportion to their role in the game. But the Wingspan bird shop tray to me kinda feels flimsy/tacky and unnecessary (we can just have a bird shop row of cards on the table).
If you only play the base game, the tray is very nice for storage. Although, Yes, it isn't really needed on the table, and if you have a few or all expansions, it might not all fit in for storage.
My comments: Packaging - You can't win. There are too many strong, conflicting beliefs on this topic. (And my own opinion changes with time.) Beauty - The dice sold you a copy of Euphoria to me. Custom dice are amazing, but I don't know that I would tell Garphill (for example) they should have put custom dice in their South Tigris games - the small dice with standard pips do the job very nicely. Best component of all time: Viticulture's glass beads. One component is 2 types of grapes and 4 types of wine. Talk about bang for your buck. Underappreciated chance for beauty: shape of game boards. I love the pentagonal boards of Viscounts of the West Kingdom and Tawantinsuyu, I love the rounded corners on the Tapestry board. These boards have a similar appeal to custom dice. Utility - As for dual-layered boards, I'm pretty sure the fan demand for them is 90% due to Scythe's popularity. So it's ironic you have had to resist doing them at times. Pendulum might benefit from them. I think the grippiness of the Tapestry boards works pretty well. I admit this was a major selling point for me of the Expeditions expansion, and also for a Terraforming Mars expansion kickstarter which offered them for that game. I'm a thrifty gamer, but dual-layer is probably the type of premium component I'm most willing to pay for. Onboarding - The variant provided in Inventors of the South Tigris for the first game was very clever and effective (play 3 rounds rather than 4 and use a goal card that gives you a sense of direction). Another good example is Terra Mystica, where they tell you which faction to use and where to place your starting dwellings for your first game - two impossible decisions for first-time players. Some rule books also provide strategy tips - why don't more games do that? Through the Ages also has a shortened hand-holding first game in the rule book. I also really appreciate a card or prominent back of the rule book description of the setup rules (e.g., 2/3/4p setup differences, buffs for non-first player, etc.). This is part 1? Hoping the next episode might include: 1) solo mode, 2) player aids (enough for each player), 3) hire professional writers for the rule book, 4) color blind friendly, 5) rules appendix with every card/tile explained (thank you Wingspan, Ark Nova) and every icon
Absolutely! We talk about this in the video. We always try to allow for enough space for sleeved cards (which includes space in every direction, as not only are sleeved cards wider, but they're also thicker). This is far more important in games where you're frequently shuffling cards or picking up cards off the table than in other games. At the same time, space can be created in the box for a sleever simply by removing the insert. The converse is that games with lots of cards could require a significantly bigger insert (and box) to accommodate sleeved cards, which drives up the price for everyone...including the 80% or so of people who don't sleeve cards. Lots to consider!
We're talking about two different things. The additional cost of *custom wooden shapes* in comparison to wooden cubes is minimal. The additional cost of custom painted resin tokens as compared to wooden cubes is huge. Also, the price you mention is not accurate. The price for Scythe's realistic resources is around $30-$35 in retail; the price of Scythe itself is $100. That's not half.
@@jameystegmaier Got it. Thanks! The price I mentioned is accurate, at least for retailers in Germany. The resources were never below 30 Dollars, while the base game could be had for 55 Dollars without expansions.
@@larsgutsein3910 We can't control what retailers charge, but you can see the actual prices on the Stonemaier Games webstore. The two products are priced nowhere close to each other.
@@jameystegmaier Hm. I approximatly have 300 Games. So I think the answer is yes. :-) But I can't remember one and I know I threw away lots of plastic inserts.
This makes sense for some games, one that comes to mind is Fit to Print. The insert doesn't allow you to store all the desks fully assembled inside the box. But they fit without the insert. Not really sure why they decided to even have one, considering it's also a very simple one.
Inserts… if it’s the cheap generic plastic one idc at all, the game could come without one for all I care. I’ll keep it in the box as long as everything fits, meaning if expansion content comes out and now things don’t fit, I’m chucking the insert without thought. I don’t care if the box size is similar to other company games because im not necessarily storing each game by company. I want a box that is just right with a little extra room if expansions could be a thing. Too small and im annoyed I’ll have to have two boxes. Too big just so it matches the shape of other games and im annoyed but what can I do.
These conversations are important to move the industry forward. It may not always produce new results, but definitely helps eliminate some potential problems, saying something out loud always produces better thought. Thanks.
Awesome chat!
The guest presenter was fantastic, he matched you with his knowledge and personability!
As soon as Mitchell started talking about paper wrappers vs. shrink I knew exactly where he was going. Several times I've caught the corner of a card when peeling the shrink off and damaged it even though I'm someone who is extremely careful during unboxing. I've come to appreciate paper wrappers much more in light of that.
What a great take on this topic. Truly appreciate the insight into some of the why behind decisions that are made. Mitchell is a fantastic guest and I’m really looking forward to part 2!
Thanks Garrett!
Component lists are especially useful when buying and selling used games, to check that all the components are there. Some components are impossible to identify from those lists, except by counting all the "square red tokens" to discover that those are the "27 action tokens" or whatever. A more useful list would describe "27 red square Action Tokens".
Onirim and its siblings are one of my favorite examples of beauty and whimsy. Even the packaging, the way the box opens up and unfolds to reveal the tray tells a little story. It's gorgeous.
I'd love to see a publisher create the base game in a lean/tightly packed box and then sell the expansion in a box big enough to move the base game too. That way you're only paying for the bigger box when you love the game enough to buy an expansion. You could even do that multiple times so that as the game grows, it moves from box to box like a hermit crab.
I can see where you’re coming from. The issue is that it would significantly increase the cost of the expansion so close to the cost of the game that customers would balk at it (it’s not just the cost of the box, but also the cost of freight shipping the box).
That only somewhat works if you have one expansion. You really think you should increase the size of the box with each expansion? Doesn't sound very realistic.
I still cannot believe how much more 'real' my prototypes feel when the corners of the cards/boards are rounded. It is like magic, so fully agree with you there!
Thanks guys, great talk! In terms of box size, I have to say that I actually prefer a deeper box, because slim boxes are opening up when you put them vertically on the shelf. In other words, the lid is drifting away from the box bottom after a short amount of time, and the content of the box is then piling up, so that you cannot just press them together, you need to actually take the whole box from the shelf and reorder the content and then be able to close the lid. For me as a person who always puts vertically the games on the shelf is this an important topic. Slim boxes like the ones from Clans of Caledonia or Brass Birmingham are beautiful to look at, but so cumbersome to put on the shelf. Deeper boxes don't have that problem as the lid produces enough pressure to hold the content in place. I hope game designer will rather consider deeper boxes in the future.
I think it is important to have the goal of the game and the game end conditions early in the rulebook. There are some games (First Rat and Ovation come to mind) that there are so many interesting and rewarding actions in the game that you lose sight of the game end condition and the game goes on forever.
Jamey I *LOVED* this video! Very thought provoking!!! I shared it with my game group
Thank you! :)
I've always poked fun at Point Salad's box size. The entire game fits perfectly in half of the box, which is split by a cardboard divider. I understand that it was most likely a standard box size that was easy to just re skin for the game.
That's a good observation! There definitely are cases where the graphic designer has a template for previous games and using it can reduce the chances of missing an important detail (and we have heard that people like when similar games line up cleanly on their shelf).
Great conversation and interesting topics! Thank you for picking this particular topic
I wish Space Base had dual layer boards. It's so easy to brush the cubes out of place.
Hyperborea is a game that uses wooden cubes and kinda needed to - the cubes are coloured and placed on tracks to generate effects but the cubes are drawn at random from your bag. So they can’t be different shapes and sizes and they have to feel identical to the touch.
I agree!
I have so many comments of so many other games that do what you are referencing that are sooooo good! But I kept thinking of other games as you moved on so I’ll just go with the last one here that I felt compelled to bring here. Potions of Azerland, which has a winner of the World Series of board gaming as the designer, does a triple layered board. As the consumer, you put them together with plastic rivets that normally get used for a spinner. Oros also did this for their boards. There is no glue and so risk of warping is low. But Potions is notable because the artist is Andrew Bosley. Love his stuff!!! It’s such a beautiful mid to lighter weight game. I am excited for that one to fulfill. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for mentioning another way to do multiple layers!
Along with boxes for packaging, a small touch that all games with a box should have the small rounded notches to make opening the box easier, and it also increases accessibility for those who make have trouble with their hands.
Interesting topic. As a game consumer, I will honestly admit that IMOP, theme, material's, and table presence sells a game to me while mechanics and gameplay make me fall in love with it and get it to the table. Not trying to blow smoke, but this is why SM games are so common on my shelf AND my table.
Thanks! I feel the same way about games I love, and that's why we aim to pair those elements in our games.
Couldn't agree more with every one of these topics so far, can't wait to hear about the rest 💕
I love Easter Eggs in games, they're fun to find. Xia: Legends of a Drift System is one of my favourites for Easter Eggs (and of course the Easter Eggs in Stonemaier Games). Although I agree that having Easter Eggs in certain games could break the thematic immersion, so they're definitely not appropriate for every game.
I'm super klutzy. I'm that person who knocks the table, so I always appreciate dual-layered boards!
😆
CGE likes to have the 'some assembly required' dual layer player boards in their games, where you have to fold and place the glue dots. I've seen it at least in Starship Captains and Kutna Hora. I'd agree and say they're a great middle ground! Kutna Hora is also one of the first games to feature 're-wood'. Its recycled wood and binder, and its able to make really detailed models!
Thanks! We're looking into trying the CGE method of glueless dual-layered player mats.
I love the way the components sit in Scythe and Expeditions. We were playing Stamp Swap yesterday and it was super hard to count my daughter's empty spaces on the mat. There is some kind of spacing issue and the stamps slide around a bit as you play. (We play on the kitchen table because we have a small place and have no room for a dedicated gaming table.) I think the grid boxes are slightly larger than the stamps. We both agreed after trying to make it work that it is a problem. We love the game though. I love how SM thinks about slight issues in their games. Again, with Stamp Swap, it is hard for me to use the score track because the scoring boxes are not uniform in size. It wouldn't have been an issue for me before I had vision processing problems but now that I do, every time I score I have to check it 2 times to make sure that I did it correctly. That might just be a me problem but I thought I would mention it in case it helps.
Love the topics. Love the idea of small rule books and love video options on how to play. We had never played Gloomhaven before but we played through GH: JOTL and are super impressed at how this taught us the game. It gave us the flavour and got us ready to move on to the full games. I feel like is the same thing as in Apiary and also how we learned Scythe. We are still learning Scythe bit by bit. We are through everything but Fenris and the modular board. Love this type of learning and expansion building where it gets just a bit more difficult.
Thank you for making these videos and having such great games. One more thing, Rolling Realms introduced so many new games to us. Thank you! Also, the new dice are cool. Love mixing them with the old dice.
I appreciate that feedback about Stamp Swap! You're right that the cells in the grid are just slightly too big (to account for small differences in cardboard size). That's interesting to hear about the score track--I hadn't thought of that!
I think the Boonlake's dual player mats are also assembled by the player while unpackaging the game for the first time and making the setup.
Nice!
Jamey, have you looked at Kutna Hora's dual-layered player boards? They're two boards that the players essentially screw or push-pin together. I thought that was a genius way to get around needing to pre-manufacture the boards together.
They also utilize recycled wood for their pieces which look wonderful - seems really on brand for Stonemaier as well.
I haven't seen them, but that's a really clever way to do it. CGE used an innovative method for such boards in SETI too. I'd love it if they shared their rewood tech!
I definitely prefer boxes to perfectly fit the content, or perfectly fit with a functional insert. Splendor is way too big of a box. Parks was amazing. I actually like The White Castle, I can get everything to just fit. It is great for people with limited shelf space, and nice when bringing a game to game night. I don’t mind baggies if it means having a smaller box.
I would happily put together all dual-layer boards like in Sky Team. I find it really special to punch out everything, it’s an “intimate” part of getting a new game. Having to construct some of the game makes it even more special! I am most likely doing that before anyone else is sitting at the table, so the added time isn’t an issue.
Personally, I will always want wooden pieces, even if they are cubes. If a game has minis I usually immediately look away and have no interest. Custom wood pieces (Parks) is definitely the most premium in my eye, screen-printed or not.
And definitely, set-up and overview need to be on the back of the rule book. Good player aids for all players! I am fine not having a starting setup like Wingspan had. But since that is targeted at non-gamers, I think that was an awesome thing to include for those kinds of medium complexity “gateway” games.
If there’s one thing I want most is proper sized boxes! I don’t care if everything is a different shape, but make it fit the components with as little air as possible! I kind of wish there was a format like A4 paper, where A3 is double, A5 is half, etc. If every box was a Ticket to Ride size, or half, or double, or 1/16th, etc., then everyone’s collection could be organized quite easily.
White castle is a horrible box.
Also many games uses larger boxes to fit future content they have planned. Doing it your way would just mean you'd have to have a seperate box even for small expansions. I would hate that.
@@nihlify Or you could just make a box fit a complete and finished game perfectly. I feel cheated when a game has a ton of extra space or slots for extra content they have already planned. I also think that expansions are rarely worth it. As per The White Castle, I can’t tell if Matcha would fit or not, but I think with some careful planning it could.
Great topic!
I think the inserts very often are missing an important thing that is allowing the cards be sleeved, for lot of hobbyist the game is an expensive thing that we want to take care and usually I have to drop the insert because the cards just don't fit when they are sleeved, and is not because in the box is not enough space
Indeed, about 5% of hobby gamers will sleeve cards, so we try to account for the extra space needed for such cards in our inserts.
Such a great video, especially for newer studios. Maybe it’s in part 2, but I would be interested to know the perspective on foreign versus domestic suppliers. We want our first game to be made 100% US but the difference in price is insane.
That's just the nature of manufacturing--it isn't just about the cost. The types of components that many games feature just aren't even made in the US.
I find many plastic inserts more annoying than useful, primarily when trying to store/carry games vertically. Much prefer a simple cardboard trough or divider and some plastic baggies. I do love it when games use pretty /custom components though, makes the playing experience better and more memorable for me.
I agree. Like 9/10 inserts doesn't work vertically even when they look neatly designed. Better to do the Uwe Rosenberg style and just give us plenty bags instead if you have lots of small components.
I absolutely love the Apiary insert.
Thank you!
I really appreciated when Wingspan had a tutorial built in to show how to play. I think more games that have more complex rules sets should have tutorials. Also, providing some hints at strategy may be useful. I know that it’s fun to figure out how to do well in a game is great. The fact is, however, that I’m unlikely to iterate enough to be able to play it better. Thoughts?
I think there’s a nice balance to strike-a few tips, but nothing that universally the only thing to ever do when you play.
I totally understand the need for some games to be beautiful.
I’m working on a game that is so simple to learn and easy to play that people are generally caught off guard when they’re confronted by its depth and complexity.
I’ve realized that I need to re-theme/re-brand the game to better visually convey its depth and crunchiness.
I’m kind of a a loss thematically.
Do you change for consultations?
That's smart of you to pair the theme and aesthetics with the depth of the game.
I always design with mechanisms and theme hand in hand--I'm not good at adding the theme later. :)
Here's information about consultation: stonemaiergames.com/about/advice-and-consultation/
Awesome conversation! This is why im a Stonemeier fan girl....
Thank you! :)
Hi Jamey. Several times in this discussion the cost of producing a fancy component comes up as a limiting factor (custom dice, dual layer boards) but a real cost - or even a common range - is never mentioned. Is this not expanded on for secrecy reasons, is the cost per unit so variable between games (and dependent on size of print run) that it's just not useful to speculate on, or something else? I am always interested in the specifics and would prefer to hear "it could be $5-10 per copy for this" as a reason a publisher might not upgrade that component rather than a mysterious "cost is a factor".
The cost is incredibly variable based on the exact composition, size, unit quantity, manufacturer, etc. Plus, I just don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every component cost. Like, if you asked me for the cost of 1 dual-layered mat in Scythe, I know that it's around 4x more expensive than a standard 1.5mm player mat, but I would be estimating the exact cost of either at best. When we get estimates from our manufacturer, every component isn't itemized--I'm given a cost for the entire product, and it's only when I specifically ask for an itemized component that I see the cost. The cost makes an impression on me--enough that I can speak about it publicly--but I don't know the exact cost by heart, and it's far too variable based on those factors I mentioned to broadcast it with any semblance of accuracy or responsibility.
If a publisher says that "cost is a factor", it means that the component in question will add at least $5 to the consumer price of the game.
I personally prefer less plastic in my boardgames, unless that plastic can justify itself through utility - it's kinda a climate guilt thing. So I was quite happy with all the plastic inside Scythe - the insert organised stuff well, and the plastic mechs and minis felt in proportion to their role in the game. But the Wingspan bird shop tray to me kinda feels flimsy/tacky and unnecessary (we can just have a bird shop row of cards on the table).
If you only play the base game, the tray is very nice for storage. Although, Yes, it isn't really needed on the table, and if you have a few or all expansions, it might not all fit in for storage.
My comments:
Packaging - You can't win. There are too many strong, conflicting beliefs on this topic. (And my own opinion changes with time.)
Beauty - The dice sold you a copy of Euphoria to me. Custom dice are amazing, but I don't know that I would tell Garphill (for example) they should have put custom dice in their South Tigris games - the small dice with standard pips do the job very nicely. Best component of all time: Viticulture's glass beads. One component is 2 types of grapes and 4 types of wine. Talk about bang for your buck. Underappreciated chance for beauty: shape of game boards. I love the pentagonal boards of Viscounts of the West Kingdom and Tawantinsuyu, I love the rounded corners on the Tapestry board. These boards have a similar appeal to custom dice.
Utility - As for dual-layered boards, I'm pretty sure the fan demand for them is 90% due to Scythe's popularity. So it's ironic you have had to resist doing them at times. Pendulum might benefit from them. I think the grippiness of the Tapestry boards works pretty well. I admit this was a major selling point for me of the Expeditions expansion, and also for a Terraforming Mars expansion kickstarter which offered them for that game. I'm a thrifty gamer, but dual-layer is probably the type of premium component I'm most willing to pay for.
Onboarding - The variant provided in Inventors of the South Tigris for the first game was very clever and effective (play 3 rounds rather than 4 and use a goal card that gives you a sense of direction). Another good example is Terra Mystica, where they tell you which faction to use and where to place your starting dwellings for your first game - two impossible decisions for first-time players. Some rule books also provide strategy tips - why don't more games do that? Through the Ages also has a shortened hand-holding first game in the rule book. I also really appreciate a card or prominent back of the rule book description of the setup rules (e.g., 2/3/4p setup differences, buffs for non-first player, etc.).
This is part 1? Hoping the next episode might include: 1) solo mode, 2) player aids (enough for each player), 3) hire professional writers for the rule book, 4) color blind friendly, 5) rules appendix with every card/tile explained (thank you Wingspan, Ark Nova) and every icon
Your comment is a great preview for part 2! :)
Is there ever consideration for space for cards with sleeves?
Seems like some games have room and some … ain’t no way
Absolutely! We talk about this in the video. We always try to allow for enough space for sleeved cards (which includes space in every direction, as not only are sleeved cards wider, but they're also thicker). This is far more important in games where you're frequently shuffling cards or picking up cards off the table than in other games. At the same time, space can be created in the box for a sleever simply by removing the insert. The converse is that games with lots of cards could require a significantly bigger insert (and box) to accommodate sleeved cards, which drives up the price for everyone...including the 80% or so of people who don't sleeve cards. Lots to consider!
If the cost for realistic resources is minimal, why are the resource tokens for Scythe so expensive in retail? Like half the price of the game.
We're talking about two different things. The additional cost of *custom wooden shapes* in comparison to wooden cubes is minimal. The additional cost of custom painted resin tokens as compared to wooden cubes is huge. Also, the price you mention is not accurate. The price for Scythe's realistic resources is around $30-$35 in retail; the price of Scythe itself is $100. That's not half.
@@jameystegmaier Got it. Thanks! The price I mentioned is accurate, at least for retailers in Germany. The resources were never below 30 Dollars, while the base game could be had for 55 Dollars without expansions.
@@larsgutsein3910 We can't control what retailers charge, but you can see the actual prices on the Stonemaier Games webstore. The two products are priced nowhere close to each other.
I hate inserts. The first thing I throw away...
Is there any game in your collection that still has its original insert?
@@jameystegmaier Hm. I approximatly have 300 Games. So I think the answer is yes. :-) But I can't remember one and I know I threw away lots of plastic inserts.
This makes sense for some games, one that comes to mind is Fit to Print. The insert doesn't allow you to store all the desks fully assembled inside the box. But they fit without the insert. Not really sure why they decided to even have one, considering it's also a very simple one.
Inserts… if it’s the cheap generic plastic one idc at all, the game could come without one for all I care. I’ll keep it in the box as long as everything fits, meaning if expansion content comes out and now things don’t fit, I’m chucking the insert without thought. I don’t care if the box size is similar to other company games because im not necessarily storing each game by company. I want a box that is just right with a little extra room if expansions could be a thing. Too small and im annoyed I’ll have to have two boxes. Too big just so it matches the shape of other games and im annoyed but what can I do.