A few pertinent anecdotes from our newly birthed GMC in Texas- our congregation didn't meet the 2/3 vote but we had a majority that walked out of the doors and have had a service every Sunday since the vote occurred. We have a building now (praise God for miracles) and run a blended worship service. Even with all of this, we are now less in debt than we were previously and making steady progress. We left behind a money pit older building (elevator was nonfunctional for months with many elderly members) with no operational budget to hire necessary staff for children and youth, so the conference is "helping" them out for right now. A recent regional meeting was held nextdoor in a newer, debt-ridden gymnasium where it was touted that we'd all "be back". Well, no we won't. Several of our members were helping out with clerical duties over there out of love- and they are just now pulling away from doing that. Reality is going to bite and the reassurances of the conference are going to be pretty shallow when they have to shut the doors. UMC hierarchy got too big for its breeches and thought they could command the loyalty of the sheep when the shepherds are leaving the gates open for the wolves.
Seriously no offense to anyone involved, but when all the dust settles, I hope that the only thing anyone is considering is whether or not what is being proposed in the UMC church discipline is biblical. It has been my experience, nearly 100% of the time, that when term “progressive” is used, it usually means straying from traditional, biblical interpretation. On another note, anytime politics is involved in a church decision, spirituality is usually not being considered…At any rate. I hope all involved will do nothing but seek God and His leadings. At this point the only rational thing to do, in my estimation, is come up with a fair departure monetary percentage payment, and call it a day.
For the hierarchy, this is ONLY about MONEY. I had questioned my husband about this UMC ability as he had once been a pastor in the UMC>. This is nothing more than filthy lucre on the part of the hierarchy. And this policy is wicked. It was the congregants who paid for the building, the upkeep, and all other financial matters like paying the pastor and the wicked hierarchy, who would not have been paid their salaries and retirement without the CONGREGANTS being faithful givers. On the other hand, the congregants knew this and gave anyway. All of this is so opposed to Scripture.
I think the hierarchy has lots of reasons for doing what they do, sometimes primarily money, but also because of power, but also sentimentality and nostalgia. The dream of the UMC was pretty much that it might become the church of the whole US. Instead, we have had consistent decline, and now tons of people want out. It is discouraging, and for many it is easier to presume that they want out because they are misinformed or filled with bad intentions. I reckon they justify making monetary claims by saying things like “It’s because of our norms and policies that you have been able to get and retain highly trained clergy,” or “It is because of the UMC brand that people have come to you instead of other churches in town, as they trust the brand.” I think both of these things fail to be very convincing, especially over the last three decades. But I still think it’s okay for us to admit that a lot of this is framed by an understanding of the UMC local churches being sorta like franchises. I find myself wondering if a franchise branch of, say, McDonald’s has to pay a fee to the corporation if they decide they want to start selling other foods associated with other brands, or if they can just leave without any fees…
I would leave this denomination period!!I knew a long time ago there was something very wrong with their beliefs, and a lot of Baptists are trending the same way,that's why I go to an independent church!
Our church made the decision to leave. Wasn't easy, still think it was right. The door goes both ways, can always walk away. Folks been doing just that to the UMC since day one. So sad and did not have to happen. God bless you all going through this, regardless of the path you take. Just choose well and by your faith only.
This is all very frustrating. I am a member of the church in Jonesboro. We actually today just lost the property in court and have until August 1 to vacate. The whole thing is disgusting. They have attacked John at every turn as well.
It's all about power and money to this denomination!very sad what is going on with a lot of churches in the United States, we better come back to god and morals before its too late!!judgement day I believe is coming soon!!
It is hard to leave a church a family has attended for decades, or for generations. But sometimes you are left without an option. I could not be part of a denomination where the local church does not own its building, or makes its own minister selection.
Yeah, our covenant governance is done by an episcopacy that is supposed to carry out the will of Christ first and their annual conference second. Congregational models are governed locally, but Methodist structure has pretty much always been connectional and episcopal. When we all stand by the Discipline, it works well. Very few imagined that there might be a time when our denominational leadership would work against its own connectional covenant.
I have a bigger issue with comments from Bishops saying “I see no issue with homosexuality and will marry and ordain them”. Maybe we can do drag queens for children’s church as lighting the candles. What an empowered laity! Not.
I am 74 years old and I group up in a church called "Wesleyan Methodist Church". They no longer exist, the Wesleyan church broke away from the Methodist church because of the liberal stance the Methodist Church had. Wesleyan church was very conservative. My question to anyone out there, can you tell me why the Methodist Church of today, Ordains Homosexuals as preachers of the church when the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is an abomination unto Lord, you are blaspheming Christ Himself by taking this position. Help me understand why you think this is OK. You all know the scripture references I am talking about. Thank you.
Denny, I imagine you and I would agree with great and succinct clarity about the Christian faith. If you watch more of my content, I hope you feel both validated and challenged to better understand the unfortunate complexity of the situation. Things that often seem simple can get quite convoluted. If the question behind your question is how and why suckers like me continue to stick with the UMC despite clear violations of scripture, the long and short of it is that I don’t think there’s an uncorrupted denomination, and I just need to bloom where planted and keep calling folks to biblical holiness wherever they are. But if we keep taking our ball and going home, eventually Christian fellowship will just be a figment of the past.
@@plainspokenpod Sure, and who cares because the Methodists came from the Anglicans, and they left the Catholics; this is the history of a fragmented body of Christians. Why should someone stay Methodist instead of one of a thousand other denominations?
I am leaning on the numerous times in th Bible where Jesus says love your neighbor. How can youbegin a new church that is based on keeping a group of people out !!!!
Plain and simple the reason comes down to money, I'm a Christian, worship God and follow his word and read my bible but stopped attending church because 2-3 times a month I would get letters saying I needed to donate more, the church is becoming lost in politics and greed.
Yikes. 2-3 times a month? That's pretty rare, Neil. I honestly haven't ever heard of something like that. I support some ministries that email asks for money attached to new information, but I can honestly say I haven't ever heard of a church asking for money in printed mail that often. I'd ask you to consider if perhaps you have drawn a general truth about all churches that is actually based on a very exceptional situation. In my church, though I preach on money when the scriptures come up that talk about it (and there are a few), I don't send out letters or emails asking folks to give. We don't even have an offertory in worship anymore. It turns out folks just give to a ministry that they think is doing good work. With respect to the denominational angst, yes, it has a lot to do with money/mammon/assets. The problem is that the material can and often does get tied up with spiritual matters. A physical building and monetary assets very much determine what kind of ease or problems a local church community is going to have in doing ministry. It is not an easy or simple thing to leave behind the assets accrued, built, and maintained by a couple generations of Methodists. And it doesn't seem to be very easy for some conferences to let go of those things, either, for reasons that are harder for me to acknowledge.
@@plainspokenpod yours sounds like a church I would go to, my experience was years ago but I was trying to watch a Christmas service on streaming platform and during the service the treasurer was handing out Christmas bonuses to the priests, very inappropriate and turned that off too. Judt made me sick that isn't what the birth of Jesus is about.
Can’t leave? As individuals you can certainly leave. Just don’t show. If you’re a pastor, get another job…non-religious. Can your wife or kids take jobs to tide you over? House provided? Again, move out. Rent a trailer home or move in with others. A parishioner? Easy. Don’t go anymore. Go to a Biblical church or have home/private worship until you find one. No more $$$ to the Methodists. Turn off the faucet. What kind of religion is Methodist? As portrayed here, it sounds like a cult. Will you lose friends? Family? Certain perks? A building? Yes, maybe all of that. What’s better, the favor of man or the favor of God?
Did you watch the video? It takes for granted that these things are options. The concern is with collective bodies (churches) being able to hold onto the things that generations of Methodists built and entrusted to our generation. Surely losses will come with following Jesus. That doesn’t mean that we seek to lose or suffer more than necessary. And there’s a remarkable aspect to some Christian leaders causing churches to suffer. Those are the concerns here.
The issue a majority of churches is having is about MARRIAGE and what GOD'S WORD say's about it being between a MAN and a WOMAN NOT a marriage between same sex God warned about wolves in sheep's clothing Your not suppose to change what the Bible says and follow whatever is political correct man's law pertaining to Bible and any pastor or christian who has studied the Bible knows what it says
That is exactly what is happening in most churches unfortunately!when you compromise the gospel, I really have to question whether you are saved??if you stay in that mindset and never repent ,I fear for your soul!
as a Baptist, i wish y'all would just jump the fence, practice immersion and join us lol. we dont have these issues. yes we have some issues of our own, but thank God we arent debating whether or not the Bible is true. there is a denomination that comes close to us, yet still remains within Methodism, so why not consider joining the Congregational Methodist Church? it is still Wesleyan, yet each church elects their own pastors, and there is never a trust clause, u never have to worry about losing your property
And when they suspended him, it felt completely like a personal attack. They tried to church it up like they just wanted peace but, you can see through their language.
Why not just leave it and start another church? I personally am not staying at a church I don’t agree with. If there is no congregation then there no problem.
When generations of believers have operated out of the same place, where they are surrounded by memorials of saints who have gone before, where there are treasures stored up to glorify God for generations to come…one does not discard these things unless absolutely necessary. The people who built these things and sacrificed to make them possible did not do so for them to be flippantly abandoned by a future generation who cannot bear to contend for the faith.
@@plainspokenpod but the building isn’t the church. The building should not be idolized. I understand they have sweat and tears invested in it. But what is more important? A building or standing for the truth of the Bible? Choosing a building or place over the word of God is choosing an idol. God will bless them for choosing right.
Kevin, I just read an article this morning that I thought explained the century-old dysfunction in a helpful way: goodnewsmag.org/how-we-got-here-the-history-of-um-conflict-part-1/
this is why I worship at a non-denominanacial church. we strictly aim to follow the Bible and restore the church as began after our Lord and Savior Christ Jesu rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven
@@richardburik352 As long as it stays true to the Word and you have leadership who value preaching and serving more than power, praise and the purse. May God be in all you and your congregation does, brother.
Richard, I and many others believe that part of following Christ requires that we do so alongside other churches, sharing both money and an authority structure. We are concerned about the long term affects of churches being independent. I certainly wouldn't seek to remove the right to be independent, but I do want to clearly speak on behalf of the conviction that groups of congregations can and should work together. I would suggest to you that the model of churches in Acts of the Apostles require shared finances and authority structure. If that's the case, then we need to continue to persuade and provoke one another to purify our fellowships.
@@richardburik352 My Pentecostal Church is one of few that actually call this slop out. People say it very controversial and I say I love it. Two times a week he calls it out.
There arn't any! Start one in your area! Get two or three who believe in what John Wesley taught and start one. You could contact the Wesleyan Methodist denomination and get materials from them for Sunday School, starting a Church, etc. DO IT!!
Despite Larry's comment here, I and many others within the UMC are striving to be authentically and thoroughly Wesleyan in the old school way. I'd urge you to go to the Nowata Methodists' YT channel and see some of the explicitly Methodist material we have produced. Even so, we are few and far between. Let's pray for a better future!
I like how you victimized yourself at the end because the remaining members of the cabot UMC have come together in a time of adversity and a member of the congregation really stepped up and paid the debt off at the church.
Lutheran here, do not understand this issue, one of my kids is gay I still love her and would defend her rights, don't have to like it but my love will not stop.
OF COURSE love your daughter. NOBODY is saying we should stop loving sinners, Rodney. Christ died for sinners. The argument isn’t at all about whether we should love sinners, especially our children. It’s about how we show and feel love rightly in light of God’s clear warnings about same-sex behaviors. So if you’re being honest and you sincerely don’t understand, then the only thing to do is spend more time in scripture to seek understanding. I wish you well. Keep loving your precious daughter.
No one is truly gay. It is a sin just as murder is a sin. I went thru that with my daughter for about 3 years. The only good thing was she couldn’t get pregnant. But while I loved her I would not defend her right to be gay and behave in an unbiblical practice. It didn’t help that her girlfriend was literally crazy! She is one of the few people I’ve ever known in my life that I believe is truly demon possessed. My daughter’s children were humiliated by her behavior. She lost custody of all of them. God made male and female and if people stray from those types of relationships, then it’s just sin. It’s just a fantasy world they live in. What I’ve also found is that a lot of the “gays” hunt for a woman with children as they are child molesters. And, a lot of girls and boys who are choosing one of these lifestyles does so due to being molested themselves as kids. I have a nephew who right now is doing the trans thing. He knows better. But he began changing after being molested at a friends house. My daughter was raped by her bio dad and molested by others I’m pretty sure. She hasn’t told me yet but says she’s beginning to remember. She’s 42. And I was molested as a child. The few times I’ve gone to therapy, the therapist always recommends books to read. What I discovered about all of the recommended books is that they were all written by lesbians. So I didn’t read them. And now in our area (I can’t speak for others) is that all of the places you normally would have sent your family members to for help, are all run by trans and gays and other mentally ill people. So there’s no help for mental illness anymore. Pray for your daughter. Be kind to her. But you can’t support her lifestyle as a Christian. If you do she will never be convicted and saved. I have just given you some examples of my own experiences. One more thing. From my daughters relationship and others I have known, most lesbian relationships are very violent.
Update to your video… a special Retired judge from Ark. took the case. He ruled against the Jonesboro UMC. In favor of the ARK UMC conf. Haven’t heard what the Jonesboro church will do next in that area. But I’ve heard that they will likely start new church.
Once a video is published, it can’t really be updated. That’s one of the frustrating things about news commentary: when situations are prone to change, the record is left of a previous time in the story. But I’ll release a new one when there have been more developments. I had read about this judge’s unfortunate ruling. My understanding was that this isn’t yet the end of the road, but I could be wrong.
Why ? Let them go - methodists talking not being Christians -- again - and I was born and raised one and I can't understand this at all - shame on you !!
Why doesn't anyone ask, "where are the original Churches today?" Or better yet, "did the Lord will 30,000+ denominations and the continuing fragmentation of the body of Christ?" What about apostolic succession? Who codified the canon of Scripture? What is the teaching from John 6 and the early Fathers of the Church around the Eucharist? Having grown up Methodist, I appreciate that I was taught everything about covered dishes, choir specials, and Scripture, but we need a supernatural sense to be transmitted to us.
I mean, SOME Methodists are always asking and trying to answer those questions. I like those conversations. I also think the conversation I'm pointing to is worthy. The UMC actually generated some decent doctrinal pieces a few years ago called "By Water and the Spirit" and "This Holy Mystery" on the sacraments. I'm not familiar with anything decent having been written on the apostolic succession, although I'm sure something has been, as we continue to have ecumenical interaction with the Roman Catholic Church. We definitely need to reclaim the Methodist concern for seeking the form and power of righteousness through the Holy Spirit. Amen to that.
I serve two churches. Neither of them have disaffiliated. I have not sent any paperwork to the GMC or any other credentialing body. I’m pretty much committed to doing whatever my churches do. My position is that it is categorically wrong to coerce people or bodies into relationships against their will.
Correct me if I'm wrong. The UMC (the organization that supports gay rights among other things) owns the building's in question! So legally the people who are against homosexual's receiving what I consider human rights think they should own the building. Correct me if I'm wrong just want to know what's going on. I'm not a religious person per sey but I do want to understand.
The local church people own the building. The denomination is the trustee of the building on behalf of the owners. The local church’s people paid for the construction and maintenance of the building, along with all other assets.
Brothers/Brethren/Sisters= G80. Not even remotely speaking to anyone who calls themselves "Christians", but rather to the tribes of Israel of the same womb. He is speaking only to the House of Israel. Remember what Jesus said. Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Last I checked, The Redeemer of Israel is not a lier.
Pardon me for my interjection, but I believe the usage of terms like conservative/progressive and "woke" insert a negative political undertone to this whole conversation. If progressive or woke means that I accept that ALL people are loved by Christ, that Jesus didn't exclude members of the LGBTQ1+ community in his definition of "neighbor", that some people are born differently and that's OK, and that not all of the teachings of the Apostle Paul pertain to live in society in the year 2023, then I gladly wear the aforementioned titles of progressive and woke. John Miles could have backed down and regrouped after Jonesboro was denied right before Thanksgiving. He could have waited until after Christman and Advent to launch his little civil war. It was his choice as to when to start the fight. In this case, both side are wrong. I think the actions of N. Georgia Conference are wrong. My biggest concern right now has nothing to do with LGBTQ1+ rights but more to do with the seemingly out of control administration at both the Oklahoma and National conference, unaccountability in expenditures and business practices, and failure to be accountable to local church leaderships. Having said that, unless our UMC administration gets their house in order, this whole denomination is teetering on the brink of utter destruction. JMO
I don't think I said the word 'woke' in this video. Leaves me thinking you didn't watch it. I stand behind using that term, and other terms usually applied to the political realm, because the UMC so readily lends itself to be a mirror of our national politics. These categories apply because so many eagerly apply the same ethos to their faith as they do to their politics, and vice versa. The language you have in your understanding of how Christ's love works betray a framework that conservatives wouldn't even recognize. Of course, Jesus loves and died for everyone, but he also made clear that anyone who persists in unrepentant sin, especially that of a sexual nature, will not be welcomed into his Kingdom. Conservatives believe that; liberals don't. I'm 100% with you with respect to transparent and good faith financial practices and have nothing but affirmation for our shared passion there.
@@plainspokenpod With all due respect, sir. None of the 4 gospels records Jesus condemning anything of a sexual nature. His condemnation was generally reserved for Pharisees, wealthy people, and hypocrites. Paul, on the other hand was quick in his condemnation of many things including women talking in church while fully endorsing slavery. I in no way believe the teachings about societal rules of behavior are relevant to today's world. He, like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, was a man of his times with all of its warts and oppressive practices. I believe that Paul was a great teacher and prophet but not even in the same universe as Christ. And yes, I watched your video. No, you didn't use the word woke or queer (unlike Rob Renfro who throws those terms around like darts at his enemies). I just plain old hate the use of words as weapons. A word, like a bullet, can never be taken back and inflicts damage on both the innocent and the guilty. Some words are inherently harmful. Conservative, Liberal, Queer, Straight, Gay, the N word are all labels we use to identify who we choose to segregate and hate. If we, as the followers of Christ, continue to use these words, we will never find peace and will never be able to spread the word outside of our own friendly labels.
@@jamesschroder5944 I am not a Methodist nor do I know much about them. But I believe the heart of the matter here is the taking of one portion of Scripture above another. Paul was an Apostle of Christ and all of his words carry as much weight as any other portion of Scripture. To put it bluntly in love, if you have a problem with any word in the Bible, then the problem is with you, not the Bible. Our thinking as humans is always skewed by the culture we live in. Paul is authoritative on all he wrote. We cannot pick and choose which portions of Scripture to follow.
@@plainspokenpod Im Pentecostal and following the UMC movement closely. I really dont think you should have answered him. If he believes that gays get into heaven, no way you change his mind. The Bible is clear and it does not change with time or society. It doesnt change with the church or the pastor or bishop. Its rock solid and will be til the end of times. No amount of translations will change it.
There's no denominations, no licenced pastors, no church buildings, no liturgy, no Sunday worship, no Sunday school in my King James Bible New Testament.
Your pain is not caused by the LGBT community asking for full acceptance in the UMC. It is caused by your own homophobia and hatred (yes, I will call it hatred, because that’s what it is). Your pain is completely self inflicted. I have no sympathy at all for the hardness of your hearts. Shame.
Thank you for your openness 🙌🏻✝️
A few pertinent anecdotes from our newly birthed GMC in Texas- our congregation didn't meet the 2/3 vote but we had a majority that walked out of the doors and have had a service every Sunday since the vote occurred. We have a building now (praise God for miracles) and run a blended worship service. Even with all of this, we are now less in debt than we were previously and making steady progress. We left behind a money pit older building (elevator was nonfunctional for months with many elderly members) with no operational budget to hire necessary staff for children and youth, so the conference is "helping" them out for right now. A recent regional meeting was held nextdoor in a newer, debt-ridden gymnasium where it was touted that we'd all "be back". Well, no we won't. Several of our members were helping out with clerical duties over there out of love- and they are just now pulling away from doing that. Reality is going to bite and the reassurances of the conference are going to be pretty shallow when they have to shut the doors. UMC hierarchy got too big for its breeches and thought they could command the loyalty of the sheep when the shepherds are leaving the gates open for the wolves.
Christ centered people serve christ and by extension his church. UMC's are left with no christ centered servants
Thank you for speaking out and being honest about who you are. I am an elder in the WI-Annual Conference. I am with you. 😇
Seriously no offense to anyone involved, but when all the dust settles, I hope that the only thing anyone is considering is whether or not what is being proposed in the UMC church discipline is biblical. It has been my experience, nearly 100% of the time, that when term “progressive” is used, it usually means straying from traditional, biblical interpretation. On another note, anytime politics is involved in a church decision, spirituality is usually not being considered…At any rate. I hope all involved will do nothing but seek God and His leadings. At this point the only rational thing to do, in my estimation, is come up with a fair departure monetary percentage payment, and call it a day.
For the hierarchy, this is ONLY about MONEY.
I had questioned my husband about this UMC ability as he had once been a pastor in the UMC>. This is nothing more than filthy lucre on the part of the hierarchy. And this policy is wicked.
It was the congregants who paid for the building, the upkeep, and all other financial matters like paying the pastor and the wicked hierarchy, who would not have been paid their salaries and retirement without the CONGREGANTS being faithful givers. On the other hand, the congregants knew this and gave anyway.
All of this is so opposed to Scripture.
I think the hierarchy has lots of reasons for doing what they do, sometimes primarily money, but also because of power, but also sentimentality and nostalgia. The dream of the UMC was pretty much that it might become the church of the whole US. Instead, we have had consistent decline, and now tons of people want out. It is discouraging, and for many it is easier to presume that they want out because they are misinformed or filled with bad intentions. I reckon they justify making monetary claims by saying things like “It’s because of our norms and policies that you have been able to get and retain highly trained clergy,” or “It is because of the UMC brand that people have come to you instead of other churches in town, as they trust the brand.” I think both of these things fail to be very convincing, especially over the last three decades. But I still think it’s okay for us to admit that a lot of this is framed by an understanding of the UMC local churches being sorta like franchises. I find myself wondering if a franchise branch of, say, McDonald’s has to pay a fee to the corporation if they decide they want to start selling other foods associated with other brands, or if they can just leave without any fees…
I would leave this denomination period!!I knew a long time ago there was something very wrong with their beliefs, and a lot of Baptists are trending the same way,that's why I go to an independent church!
Our church made the decision to leave. Wasn't easy, still think it was right. The door goes both ways, can always walk away. Folks been doing just that to the UMC since day one.
So sad and did not have to happen. God bless you all going through this, regardless of the path you take. Just choose well and by your faith only.
This is all very frustrating. I am a member of the church in Jonesboro. We actually today just lost the property in court and have until August 1 to vacate. The whole thing is disgusting. They have attacked John at every turn as well.
It's all about power and money to this denomination!very sad what is going on with a lot of churches in the United States, we better come back to god and morals before its too late!!judgement day I believe is coming soon!!
It is hard to leave a church a family has attended for decades, or for generations. But sometimes you are left without an option. I could not be part of a denomination where the local church does not own its building, or makes its own minister selection.
Yeah, our covenant governance is done by an episcopacy that is supposed to carry out the will of Christ first and their annual conference second. Congregational models are governed locally, but Methodist structure has pretty much always been connectional and episcopal. When we all stand by the Discipline, it works well. Very few imagined that there might be a time when our denominational leadership would work against its own connectional covenant.
@@plainspokenpod ,
I get it, but Congregational is my choice.
I have a bigger issue with comments from Bishops saying “I see no issue with homosexuality and will marry and ordain them”. Maybe we can do drag queens for children’s church as lighting the candles. What an empowered laity! Not.
I am 74 years old and I group up in a church called "Wesleyan Methodist Church". They no longer exist, the Wesleyan church broke away from the Methodist church because of the liberal stance the Methodist Church had. Wesleyan church was very conservative. My question to anyone out there, can you tell me why the Methodist Church of today, Ordains Homosexuals as preachers of the church when the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is an abomination unto Lord, you are blaspheming Christ Himself by taking this position. Help me understand why you think this is OK. You all know the scripture references I am talking about. Thank you.
All I can say is, SIN IS INCLUSIVE!...
Denny, I imagine you and I would agree with great and succinct clarity about the Christian faith. If you watch more of my content, I hope you feel both validated and challenged to better understand the unfortunate complexity of the situation. Things that often seem simple can get quite convoluted. If the question behind your question is how and why suckers like me continue to stick with the UMC despite clear violations of scripture, the long and short of it is that I don’t think there’s an uncorrupted denomination, and I just need to bloom where planted and keep calling folks to biblical holiness wherever they are. But if we keep taking our ball and going home, eventually Christian fellowship will just be a figment of the past.
But hasn’t that been happening for the past 500 years or so?
@@plainspokenpod Sure, and who cares because the Methodists came from the Anglicans, and they left the Catholics; this is the history of a fragmented body of Christians. Why should someone stay Methodist instead of one of a thousand other denominations?
I am leaning on the numerous times in th Bible where Jesus says love your neighbor. How can youbegin a new church that is based on keeping a group of people out !!!!
Plain and simple the reason comes down to money, I'm a Christian, worship God and follow his word and read my bible but stopped attending church because 2-3 times a month I would get letters saying I needed to donate more, the church is becoming lost in politics and greed.
Yikes. 2-3 times a month? That's pretty rare, Neil. I honestly haven't ever heard of something like that. I support some ministries that email asks for money attached to new information, but I can honestly say I haven't ever heard of a church asking for money in printed mail that often. I'd ask you to consider if perhaps you have drawn a general truth about all churches that is actually based on a very exceptional situation. In my church, though I preach on money when the scriptures come up that talk about it (and there are a few), I don't send out letters or emails asking folks to give. We don't even have an offertory in worship anymore. It turns out folks just give to a ministry that they think is doing good work.
With respect to the denominational angst, yes, it has a lot to do with money/mammon/assets. The problem is that the material can and often does get tied up with spiritual matters. A physical building and monetary assets very much determine what kind of ease or problems a local church community is going to have in doing ministry. It is not an easy or simple thing to leave behind the assets accrued, built, and maintained by a couple generations of Methodists. And it doesn't seem to be very easy for some conferences to let go of those things, either, for reasons that are harder for me to acknowledge.
@@plainspokenpod yours sounds like a church I would go to, my experience was years ago but I was trying to watch a Christmas service on streaming platform and during the service the treasurer was handing out Christmas bonuses to the priests, very inappropriate and turned that off too. Judt made me sick that isn't what the birth of Jesus is about.
It is also very very refreshing to hear your point of view on this. It’s also sad that it has gotten to this point. But I do appreciate your coverage
So much for “graceful exit.”
Jimmie Swaggert's words: we are saved from our sins not in our sins.
From North Ga we have seen the same. A cheap shot by so called Bishops. The rules are in place, but don’t let that small issue get in the way.
I should be releasing another episode on the situation in North Georgia today or tomorrow. Stay tuned. Thanks for watching and engaging!
Can’t leave? As individuals you can certainly leave. Just don’t show. If you’re a pastor, get another job…non-religious. Can your wife or kids take jobs to tide you over? House provided? Again, move out. Rent a trailer home or move in with others. A parishioner? Easy. Don’t go anymore. Go to a Biblical church or have home/private worship until you find one. No more $$$ to the Methodists. Turn off the faucet. What kind of religion is Methodist? As portrayed here, it sounds like a cult. Will you lose friends? Family? Certain perks? A building? Yes, maybe all of that. What’s better, the favor of man or the favor of God?
Did you watch the video? It takes for granted that these things are options. The concern is with collective bodies (churches) being able to hold onto the things that generations of Methodists built and entrusted to our generation. Surely losses will come with following Jesus. That doesn’t mean that we seek to lose or suffer more than necessary. And there’s a remarkable aspect to some Christian leaders causing churches to suffer. Those are the concerns here.
It's happening. People are walking away to start new churches. And it is an interesting process-
As a former methodist, it sure looks like people are more concerned with being faithful to a man made denomination than following Jesus.
The issue a majority of churches is having is about
MARRIAGE and what GOD'S WORD say's about it being between a MAN and a WOMAN
NOT a marriage between same sex
God warned about wolves in sheep's clothing
Your not suppose to change what the Bible says and follow whatever is political correct man's law pertaining to Bible and any pastor or christian who has studied the Bible knows what it says
That is exactly what is happening in most churches unfortunately!when you compromise the gospel, I really have to question whether you are saved??if you stay in that mindset and never repent ,I fear for your soul!
as a Baptist, i wish y'all would just jump the fence, practice immersion and join us lol. we dont have these issues. yes we have some issues of our own, but thank God we arent debating whether or not the Bible is true. there is a denomination that comes close to us, yet still remains within Methodism, so why not consider joining the Congregational Methodist Church? it is still Wesleyan, yet each church elects their own pastors, and there is never a trust clause, u never have to worry about losing your property
Haven't finished watching, but are you referring (at about 2:30 of your video) to Ready to Harvest? It was excellent.
The Bible is quite honest about both the human propensity to distort or refuse GOD's revelation and the consequences that result.
And when they suspended him, it felt completely like a personal attack. They tried to church it up like they just wanted peace but, you can see through their language.
Why not just leave it and start another church? I personally am not staying at a church I don’t agree with. If there is no congregation then there no problem.
When generations of believers have operated out of the same place, where they are surrounded by memorials of saints who have gone before, where there are treasures stored up to glorify God for generations to come…one does not discard these things unless absolutely necessary. The people who built these things and sacrificed to make them possible did not do so for them to be flippantly abandoned by a future generation who cannot bear to contend for the faith.
@@plainspokenpod but the building isn’t the church. The building should not be idolized. I understand they have sweat and tears invested in it. But what is more important? A building or standing for the truth of the Bible? Choosing a building or place over the word of God is choosing an idol. God will bless them for choosing right.
Why would a congregation want to leave? It is because the denomination is changing Bible teachings?
Kevin, I just read an article this morning that I thought explained the century-old dysfunction in a helpful way: goodnewsmag.org/how-we-got-here-the-history-of-um-conflict-part-1/
This is a bad situation which gives Christ a black eye.
Or it can be viewed as a necessary separating of wheat & chaff. Moving forward requires fidelity to the Word.
this is why I worship at a non-denominanacial church. we strictly aim to follow the Bible and restore the church as began after our Lord and Savior Christ Jesu rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven
@@richardburik352 As long as it stays true to the Word and you have leadership who value preaching and serving more than power, praise and the purse. May God be in all you and your congregation does, brother.
Richard, I and many others believe that part of following Christ requires that we do so alongside other churches, sharing both money and an authority structure. We are concerned about the long term affects of churches being independent. I certainly wouldn't seek to remove the right to be independent, but I do want to clearly speak on behalf of the conviction that groups of congregations can and should work together. I would suggest to you that the model of churches in Acts of the Apostles require shared finances and authority structure. If that's the case, then we need to continue to persuade and provoke one another to purify our fellowships.
@@richardburik352 My Pentecostal Church is one of few that actually call this slop out. People say it very controversial and I say I love it. Two times a week he calls it out.
Follow the property/money.
sue them into bankruptcy
Personally I'm waiting this out to find what churches are Wesleyan. Then I will go back
There arn't any! Start one in your area! Get two or three who believe in what John Wesley taught and start one. You could contact the Wesleyan Methodist denomination and get materials from them for Sunday School, starting a Church, etc. DO IT!!
Despite Larry's comment here, I and many others within the UMC are striving to be authentically and thoroughly Wesleyan in the old school way. I'd urge you to go to the Nowata Methodists' YT channel and see some of the explicitly Methodist material we have produced. Even so, we are few and far between. Let's pray for a better future!
I like how you victimized yourself at the end because the remaining members of the cabot UMC have come together in a time of adversity and a member of the congregation really stepped up and paid the debt off at the church.
Schism is a result of sin....
Lutheran here, do not understand this issue, one of my kids is gay I still love her and would defend her rights, don't have to like it but my love will not stop.
OF COURSE love your daughter. NOBODY is saying we should stop loving sinners, Rodney. Christ died for sinners. The argument isn’t at all about whether we should love sinners, especially our children. It’s about how we show and feel love rightly in light of God’s clear warnings about same-sex behaviors. So if you’re being honest and you sincerely don’t understand, then the only thing to do is spend more time in scripture to seek understanding. I wish you well. Keep loving your precious daughter.
No one is truly gay. It is a sin just as murder is a sin. I went thru that with my daughter for about 3 years. The only good thing was she couldn’t get pregnant. But while I loved her I would not defend her right to be gay and behave in an unbiblical practice. It didn’t help that her girlfriend was literally crazy! She is one of the few people I’ve ever known in my life that I believe is truly demon possessed. My daughter’s children were humiliated by her behavior. She lost custody of all of them. God made male and female and if people stray from those types of relationships, then it’s just sin. It’s just a fantasy world they live in. What I’ve also found is that a lot of the “gays” hunt for a woman with children as they are child molesters. And, a lot of girls and boys who are choosing one of these lifestyles does so due to being molested themselves as kids. I have a nephew who right now is doing the trans thing. He knows better. But he began changing after being molested at a friends house. My daughter was raped by her bio dad and molested by others I’m pretty sure. She hasn’t told me yet but says she’s beginning to remember. She’s 42. And I was molested as a child. The few times I’ve gone to therapy, the therapist always recommends books to read. What I discovered about all of the recommended books is that they were all written by lesbians. So I didn’t read them. And now in our area (I can’t speak for others) is that all of the places you normally would have sent your family members to for help, are all run by trans and gays and other mentally ill people. So there’s no help for mental illness anymore. Pray for your daughter. Be kind to her. But you can’t support her lifestyle as a Christian. If you do she will never be convicted and saved. I have just given you some examples of my own experiences. One more thing. From my daughters relationship and others I have known, most lesbian relationships are very violent.
@@ritadyer9295 I agree 100% with your last statement!!!
Update to your video… a special Retired judge from Ark. took the case. He ruled against the Jonesboro UMC. In favor of the ARK UMC conf. Haven’t heard what the Jonesboro church will do next in that area. But I’ve heard that they will likely start new church.
Once a video is published, it can’t really be updated. That’s one of the frustrating things about news commentary: when situations are prone to change, the record is left of a previous time in the story. But I’ll release a new one when there have been more developments. I had read about this judge’s unfortunate ruling. My understanding was that this isn’t yet the end of the road, but I could be wrong.
How old is Rev John Miles? Knew one many years ago in Arkadelphia ark
Why ? Let them go - methodists talking not being Christians -- again - and I was born and raised one and I can't understand this at all - shame on you !!
Why doesn't anyone ask, "where are the original Churches today?" Or better yet, "did the Lord will 30,000+ denominations and the continuing fragmentation of the body of Christ?" What about apostolic succession? Who codified the canon of Scripture? What is the teaching from John 6 and the early Fathers of the Church around the Eucharist? Having grown up Methodist, I appreciate that I was taught everything about covered dishes, choir specials, and Scripture, but we need a supernatural sense to be transmitted to us.
I mean, SOME Methodists are always asking and trying to answer those questions. I like those conversations. I also think the conversation I'm pointing to is worthy. The UMC actually generated some decent doctrinal pieces a few years ago called "By Water and the Spirit" and "This Holy Mystery" on the sacraments. I'm not familiar with anything decent having been written on the apostolic succession, although I'm sure something has been, as we continue to have ecumenical interaction with the Roman Catholic Church. We definitely need to reclaim the Methodist concern for seeking the form and power of righteousness through the Holy Spirit. Amen to that.
Not understanding your personal position. Has your church disaffiliated and more importantly, have you disaffiliated?
I serve two churches. Neither of them have disaffiliated. I have not sent any paperwork to the GMC or any other credentialing body. I’m pretty much committed to doing whatever my churches do. My position is that it is categorically wrong to coerce people or bodies into relationships against their will.
What does the Holy Spirit say,?
Come out of her, my people.
Correct me if I'm wrong. The UMC (the organization that supports gay rights among other things) owns the building's in question! So legally the people who are against homosexual's receiving what I consider human rights think they should own the building. Correct me if I'm wrong just want to know what's going on. I'm not a religious person per sey but I do want to understand.
The local church people own the building. The denomination is the trustee of the building on behalf of the owners. The local church’s people paid for the construction and maintenance of the building, along with all other assets.
Just walk away
Like yo see John Miles video .
Brothers/Brethren/Sisters= G80. Not even remotely speaking to anyone who calls themselves "Christians", but rather to the tribes of Israel of the same womb.
He is speaking only to the House of Israel.
Remember what Jesus said.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Last I checked, The Redeemer of Israel is not a lier.
Pardon me for my interjection, but I believe the usage of terms like conservative/progressive and "woke" insert a negative political undertone to this whole conversation. If progressive or woke means that I accept that ALL people are loved by Christ, that Jesus didn't exclude members of the LGBTQ1+ community in his definition of "neighbor", that some people are born differently and that's OK, and that not all of the teachings of the Apostle Paul pertain to live in society in the year 2023, then I gladly wear the aforementioned titles of progressive and woke. John Miles could have backed down and regrouped after Jonesboro was denied right before Thanksgiving. He could have waited until after Christman and Advent to launch his little civil war. It was his choice as to when to start the fight. In this case, both side are wrong. I think the actions of N. Georgia Conference are wrong. My biggest concern right now has nothing to do with LGBTQ1+ rights but more to do with the seemingly out of control administration at both the Oklahoma and National conference, unaccountability in expenditures and business practices, and failure to be accountable to local church leaderships. Having said that, unless our UMC administration gets their house in order, this whole denomination is teetering on the brink of utter destruction. JMO
I don't think I said the word 'woke' in this video. Leaves me thinking you didn't watch it. I stand behind using that term, and other terms usually applied to the political realm, because the UMC so readily lends itself to be a mirror of our national politics. These categories apply because so many eagerly apply the same ethos to their faith as they do to their politics, and vice versa.
The language you have in your understanding of how Christ's love works betray a framework that conservatives wouldn't even recognize. Of course, Jesus loves and died for everyone, but he also made clear that anyone who persists in unrepentant sin, especially that of a sexual nature, will not be welcomed into his Kingdom. Conservatives believe that; liberals don't.
I'm 100% with you with respect to transparent and good faith financial practices and have nothing but affirmation for our shared passion there.
@@plainspokenpod With all due respect, sir. None of the 4 gospels records Jesus condemning anything of a sexual nature. His condemnation was generally reserved for Pharisees, wealthy people, and hypocrites. Paul, on the other hand was quick in his condemnation of many things including women talking in church while fully endorsing slavery. I in no way believe the teachings about societal rules of behavior are relevant to today's world. He, like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, was a man of his times with all of its warts and oppressive practices. I believe that Paul was a great teacher and prophet but not even in the same universe as Christ. And yes, I watched your video. No, you didn't use the word woke or queer (unlike Rob Renfro who throws those terms around like darts at his enemies). I just plain old hate the use of words as weapons. A word, like a bullet, can never be taken back and inflicts damage on both the innocent and the guilty. Some words are inherently harmful. Conservative, Liberal, Queer, Straight, Gay, the N word are all labels we use to identify who we choose to segregate and hate. If we, as the followers of Christ, continue to use these words, we will never find peace and will never be able to spread the word outside of our own friendly labels.
@@jamesschroder5944 I am not a Methodist nor do I know much about them. But I believe the heart of the matter here is the taking of one portion of Scripture above another. Paul was an Apostle of Christ and all of his words carry as much weight as any other portion of Scripture. To put it bluntly in love, if you have a problem with any word in the Bible, then the problem is with you, not the Bible. Our thinking as humans is always skewed by the culture we live in. Paul is authoritative on all he wrote. We cannot pick and choose which portions of Scripture to follow.
@@plainspokenpod Im Pentecostal and following the UMC movement closely. I really dont think you should have answered him. If he believes that gays get into heaven, no way you change his mind. The Bible is clear and it does not change with time or society. It doesnt change with the church or the pastor or bishop. Its rock solid and will be til the end of times. No amount of translations will change it.
There's no denominations, no licenced pastors, no church buildings, no liturgy, no Sunday worship, no Sunday school in my King James Bible New Testament.
Your pain is not caused by the LGBT community asking for full acceptance in the UMC. It is caused by your own homophobia and hatred (yes, I will call it hatred, because that’s what it is). Your pain is completely self inflicted. I have no sympathy at all for the hardness of your hearts. Shame.