When a Boeing 737 Spins Out of Control (United Airlines Flight 585) - DISASTER BREAKDOWN
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- Опубликовано: 21 май 2024
- This video went out to my Patrons on Patreon Two Days before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: / disasterbreakdown
Twitter: / chloe_howiecb
In the 1990s a fatal mechanical fault was lurking within the tail of the world's most popular passenger plane. The Boeing 737 suffered two fatal accidents as the result of a design flaw that had been kept hidden for so long. What was it? Why wasn't it fixed? This episode of Disaster Breakdown takes a look into the accidents of United Airlines Flight 585 and USAir Flight 427 and the background of the investigation.
A thankyou to the guests who lent out their voices for this video. Including Plainly Difficult, you can check out their channel here: / plainlydifficult
00:00 Intro/Eastwind 517
04:35 United Airlines Flight 585
18:52 The Depths
36:22 British Airways G-BNLY
38:06 USAir Flight 427
53:46 Closing
#aviation
#america
#boeing
Sources:
United 585 Original Report: libraryonline.erau.edu/online...
United 585 Revised Report: reports.aviation-safety.net/1...
USAir 427 Report: reports.aviation-safety.net/1...
BA 747 G-BNLY Report: assets.publishing.service.gov...
Two interviews with relatives of United 585 victims:
• United Flight 585 - Em...
• United Flight 585 - Do...
"The Boeing Files":
planesafe.org/
planesafe.org/?page_id=477
Relevant NTSB Animations:
• Boeing 737 rudder issu...
Other Sources:
www.nbc11news.com/2023/03/07/...
tailstrike.com/database/8-sep...
special.seattletimes.com/o/ne...
www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/mag...
www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fil...
• Flight 585 Newscast 3-...
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...
library.unt.edu/gpo/NCARC/saf...
aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...
romesentinel.com/stories/vict...
A thank you to the guests who were ever so kind to lend out their voices for this video. Big thanks to Plainly Difficult for also making a contribution. Make sure to check out his channel here: ruclips.net/user/PlainlyDifficult If you like my content, I'm sure you love his variety of work :)
This video went out to my Patrons two days before going public here. If you'd like to support the channel further, consider joining the Disaster Breakdown Patreon from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
Twitter: twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCB
I love your videos. They keep getting better and better 😍😍😍
An epic cameo!
haha i recognised Plainly Difficult instantly and had to pause to check the comments!
Did a double take when I heard Plainly Difficult's voice. This is an incredibly researched video, always worth waiting for the next one!
Is Plainly as cool and chill as they seem? I'm so curious
And then the 737MAX scandal showed, that Boeing learned absolutely nothing from this.
I'm sure I'll get round to the 737 max one day
exactly 😢
Lobbying works. They should have been *(legally) NUKED into forced liquidation* by the Feds like Enron, Napster, and Megaupload. But they insisted on blaming the pilots and dangling juicy military planes and missiles contracts to keep their "business" going.
The Boeing of the 90s is not the Boeing of today, it's McDonnell Douglas in all but name.
It's not that Boeing learned nothing, it's that the USA heavily favours and protects Boeing. If these issues (these 3 planes, the 737MAX scandal + the knowledge that the companies KNEW about it and did nothing) had happened to any other airline the US would've demanded their entire fleets be grounded immediately, but because it was Boeing little-to-nothing was done.
And if other countries attempt to ground them the US will hit them massive economic punishment.
Engineer: "This is terrible! We have to find out how to fix this!"
CEO: "This is terrible! We have to find out how to avoid fixing this!"
* snort * sounds about right
They found out and fixed it. Incredible detective work
Yep. Look at Commodore computers of the 80s/early 90s. Their technology was better than Apple and PC with their Amiga. They owned and manufactured the 6502 CPUs used in Apple II, C=64, Atari and dozens of other computers. The engineers at Commodore did amazing work with so little budget.
CEO & Management mishandled everything, pocked money, and wasted their talent so they can make money on the losses via taxes. Kind of like how Discovery+ gutted HBO & HBOmax, and now with "max" they are confused as to why everyone hates them, content creators and ex-subscribers.
They could have easily over-taken Apple and possibly the PC market if they had talent in management. A $2000 Amiga ran circles around $3000 clones and $5000 IBM PCs in the 1980s.
What did they do, pushed a $700 "game computer" and hamstrung their business Version with stupidity.
When it came to Steve Jobs, he knew to keep his engineers happy and listened to them as well as direct them to "make this work.".
The boeing 737 max in a nutshell
@@serverbf100mr Corporations in general in a nutshell I'd say. Give people lots of power with zero responsibility and this is what happens.
I'm glad Boeing learned from these accidents, and never covered up a malfunctioning flight system ever again. /s
LOL!
@@edwelndiobel1567 I know. LOL like the Joker
What about the “MAX”?
@@wafflesandcarolina9344there’s always one who cannot understand the concept of sarcasm
@@kevinrogan9871 - Kevin - I don't think you should be too hard and 'superior' on this - it's easy to fall into a trap when you are caught off-guard. It could happen to any of us...
And anyway, I don't think we should be playing a blame game with such serious subjects involved. Sorry!
I’m a flight attendant, my first week at a regional airline I was working on an airplane that had a yaw damper issue resulting in an uncommanded yaw. It was one of the scariest things I’ve ever been through to this day. I am so grateful for my pilots on that day.
Kathy You were lucky In my early days with TWA and B707s the Series Yaw Damper was installed. This was after the AA Jamaica Bay incident caused by a run away Parallel Yaw Damper actuator. My aircraft in question had been flying a month or so since modification. It started having intermittent yaw damp write ups. These were signed off at JFK, STL and LAX. I signed it off once. Inbound LAX the aircraft had a sudden rudder kick. One of the aft FA;s was slammed side ways and broke three ribs. The aircraft log was Red Circled ( cannot fly till proven airworthy). After a long night of repeating wiring checks and shaking wires we found it. One wire at the at the equipment rack would open when we shook it. The wire was not properly stripped when it was crimped.
Actually the AA Jamaica Bay incident was similar to this but at takeoff. The electric actuator had a fault that caused it to go full over.
The pilot engaged the AP at takeoff, the rudder went full over and the aircraft impacted the water. I heard some hanger pilot discussing how to handle a hard over rudder. When you read the report after brake release the aircraft impacted about 55 seconds later. It did not reach 150 feet. After that the AP was not to be engaged below 400 feet on takeoff.
Holy Cow. Workers may be 'rushed' as there are always deadlines. Don't Rush, just make it perfect ... @@jayreiter268
I personally am grateful to the flight attendants who are professional safety and rescue personnel disguised as nice, calming people who hand out Goldfish crackers and coffee. You're the ones who will save me if an accident occurs. You will follow your intense training (which I think few people appreciate), you will shout, maybe shove, and you might even be impolite. You will take command, and you will save my life. Thank you. Never think less of yourself or your profession. I could not do it.
@@beenaplumber8379 Excellent comment, and so absolutely true.
Never expect a corporation to take the ethical stance and admit fault.
Capitalists have no incentive to value human lives.
Right on.
I wonder if some day, after generations of psychotherapy, moral philosophy and prosperity, human civilization will have figured out how to raise itself with such high a degree of moral character, that we can expect even corporations to act ethically throughout.
I guess Nietzsche and Dostojewski would say no, but they didn't know psychotherapy and the information-age. I'm optimistic, though I'll be probably gone for 10thousands of years before that happens.
@@kayjay7585 unfortunately, that's why we have regulations and organizations like OSHA. Infuriating when corporations lobby congress to lower regulations. The very regulations that make things safe (or at least minimize risks) for both employees and consumers.
@@benjie128 yeah, it's why we can't have nice things. Regulations can be stifling, but they wouldn't be so stifling if companies would act responsibly, which they don't universally.
Even if 99 out of 100 do act responsibly, we need regulations to protect workers, clients and the general public of that 1 company who otherwise would end up harming people...
But in 10thousand years, who knows?
That United 737 crash was brutal. 90% of the plane was up to 30 feet underground. The bodies were “Atomized” according to FAA.
USAir 427 was so destroyed that the site was declared a biohazard.
From a physics standpoint this is virtually impossible.
@@SteveBueche1027ok... How about pulverized or splattered?
Sad to think about it, but I'd personally prefer "atomised" if I was on that unfortunate flight. RIP.
@@SteveBueche1027Yay science! What velocity would supply the amount of kinetic energy able to achieve the feat of atomised bodies then please?
I was at my grandma’s house right across the street from the park. The impact was insane, everything shook, my brother fell off the chair, we thought a bomb had gone off.
Thankfully my grandma didn’t let us kids get a closer look or even leave the house after.
Sit down bot
@@YanDaOne_QCwhy do you assume he’s a bot?
@@taxiway207 Because he's probably a boy
@@marclehman1032 a boy?
@@nitehawk86 opps I meant bot
The transcripts for the cockpit recording of United 585, leading up to the accident, really highlight how incredibly good both the Captain and First Officer were. These two pilots knew each other well, but they maintained impeccable professionalism throughout the flight. The moments leading up to the crash show how they had basically no time to react. The captain makes a couple of alarmed exclamations, the first officer screams in terror and then, thats it, it's over, almost as quickly as the problem started. Truly chilling and horrifying that even two great pilots could not save their plane because of this catastrophic fault.
On the CVR the FO'S scream at the end is awful .RIP
Don't worry, the management of Boeing & Parker all lived happily ever after, with fat bonuses and fat retirement benefits allowing for a lifetime of visiting tropical islands - on their luxury yachts or on planes they're sure won't crash.
I was surpirsed that Desaster Breakdown didn't mention what happened to those scumbags.
Biggest winners are the shareholders and FAA officials who don't have to work
@@LorenzJahn Nothing happened, so that's probably why.
You ever notice that celebrity private jets never crash? Small planes with lesser celebrities crash a lot.
@@tegg.7958 Yeah, they can personally pay for better maintenance I think.
The fact that the EXACT same issue had to happen 3 times before it was fixed is still mind boggling to me
It took nearly a decade for them to figure out what was happening with the rudder servo valve. They knew it was the likely culprit, they just couldn’t prove it.
It's called capitalism. People are worth less to airlines, and indeed, any other company, than money.
Should I remind you about two 737 Max crashes before they even started fixing it. Boeing doesn't change its ways.
@@streettrialsandstuffjust wanted to mention the same thing!
@@somerandombetafish7866 A new 737 cost around 80 million dollars. Even ignoring the cost of scaring passengers and settlements with dead passengers, that's enough for capitalism to try and fix it. Sometimes it's just hard, and this one seemed to be.
Whistleblowers might seem unsavory to some, but it's more than apparent just how much we've had to rely on them, to take such risks and condemnation, simply to get information we didn't even know was being concealed, distorted or blatantly ignored in the name of profit or the adherence to a schedule set by those with clout but no context for the repurcussions now inevitably set on a course with innocent, trusting lives.
Those with clout do have the context. They know what they're risking when ignoring these things. They do not care, because it does not affect them personally; the loss of profit margins from fixing the problems, however, does. The powerful are sociopaths.
It's comforting to know that there are still a few people of character from within our midst who will sacrifice their careers and friendships to "blow the whistle" on unsafe or unethical practices within organizations both governmental and private.
@@bearowen5480 well said man, well said 👍
@@lemax6865 They're insured, too.
@@deathkorpsofkriegguardsmen8488 Yeah, except they did cover it up - kinda the point of this video. Boeing knew this was a problem in October 1992 when they were discussing in that memo what to do about it and how expensive each option was, then 2 months later releasing their statement that the UA585 crash was due to weather, not the PCU. Maybe they hadn't made the temperature connection yet in 1992, but they knew their PCU's had dangerous problems, and they did nothing but hide it (and their research concerning it) from the NTSB. They didn't help the NTSB by conducting secret research into the problem and concealing it from the NTSB during an open investigation into the crash of one of their planes. That was inexcusable. I've really gone off Boeing.
Imagine being Ron Schleede, and having Boeing trying to trick you for a second time in another United accident investigation, trying to cover up design flaws in their planes. (The other being United 811)
Schleede was used to it, his first investigation was AA96 back in 72'
I was scheduled to be on the United flight 585 to Colorado Springs, where my son was going to pick me up. My brother and sister in law, who lived in Denver, talked me into canceling the flight and said they would drive me to the Springs the next day.
Damn. I'd wake up every day and kiss the ground
Thank God!!
@@ScumBagInFL believe me, I do. I say a prayer of thanks every day. I had flown into Denver from Washington Dulles, on my way back from Germany. My son was going to drive me back to northern New Mexico where I lived. I’m so thankful that my brother and sister in law met me at the airport and talked me into canceling the flight.
Thank heavens.
@shirleybrooks1599 well glad you're here to tell the tale
In remembrance to those lost on USAir Flight 427:
Captain Peter Germano, 45
First Officer Charles B. Emmett III, 38
Flight Attendant Stanley Roosevelt Canty, 29
Flight Attendant April Lynn Slater, 28
Flight Attendant Sarah Elizabeth Slocum-Hamley, 28
David Donovan Garber, 39
Walter F. Heiligenberg, 56
Edwin Francisco Vega, 45
Chadwick Morris, 35
Johné Stahl Bigelow-Abbott
Ani Ardhaldjian
Narod Ardhaldjian, 2
Marla Renee Dickerson, 25
Joseph S. Duffy Jr., 28
Thomas Dean Harger, 41
Joan Elizabeth Van Bortel, 29
Edward L. Mahoney, 60
Daniel Michael Ruzich, 33
Susan Lisle Schwenkler, 31
Joel Kent Thompson, 61
Michael C. Williams, 28
Gregory Paul Morford, 40
Anthony Christopher Rich, 27
Paula Marie Rich, 29
David Huxford, 54
Patricia Harris Offley, 46
Larry J. Grondin, 41
John Joseph Kupchun, 52
Laurie Ann Baer, 32
Mary B. Havlin, 35
Deborah J. Norden, 40
David Wheeler
Todd I. Johnson, 37
Rick Schell, 44
William H. Aher, 54
Thomas Walter Arrigoni Jr., 49
Marshall Lee Berkman, 57
Harry F. Bernard, 49
Lee Scott Blake, 34
Ron Brown, 49
Ronald Cale, 47
Daniel A. Clark, 61
Guy Clegg Jr., 44
Lawrence William Cole, 33
John Cooper, 38
Michael J. Cosseboom
Timothy Kenneth Davis, 35
Randall J. Dellefield, 37
Karen Ann Dickson, 40
James R. Eller, 38
Dwight R. Evans, 41
Robert J. Evans, 52,
Michael Louis Felger
Lisa Marie Ferm, 34
Charles Fiantaca
Kevin C. Flaherty, 35
Richard Charles Garmhausen II, 33
Jeffrey Ziegler Gingerich
Leonard C. Grasso, 41
Gary Stephen Hapach, 33
Charles M. Hardobey, 45
Steven J. Heintz, 41
Joy A. Henderson, 30
Melvin LeRoy Henry Sr., 36
Scott Holden, 55
William J. Kabbert II, 39
Daniel Xavier Kafcas, 61
Thomas Leroy Kinsey, 39
Bernard J. Koch, 49
Carolyn A. Kwasnoski
Daniel Kwasnoski, 59
Robert E. Leonhardt, 47
Gerald R. Lindstrom, 60
David Warren Ling, 46
Kirk Douglas Lynn, 26
Bruce Robert Malenke, 45
Robert M. Marciniak, 23
Timothy McCoy, 27
Timothy Scott McIlvried, 32
Charles Davis McNamara, 43
Paul McSherry, 35
William I. Menarcheck Jr., 43
David A. Mirilovich, 37
David F. Musick, 55
Brian A. Nugent, 36
Brian E. Nichols, 37
Jeffrey P. O'Keefe, 36
William Criss Peters, 54
José R. Ponce Jr., 41
Santhirasegaran Ramasamy, 35
Eugene Raykin, 27
Kevin Philip Rimmell, 34
Edward Ryan
Frank A. Santamaria, 37
Alan Paul Sefcik, 43
Richard T. Schillinger, 60
Stephen M. Shortley, 37
Ernest Rusell Smathers Jr., 43
Andrew F. Solensky, 45
Janet Stamos, 40
Thomas Paul Szczur, 42
Jocelyn P. Taylor, 35
Bernie Varisco
Bernard Raymond Waters Jr., 50
Earl L. Weaver III, 50
Kathleen B. Weaver, 44
Brian Paul Weaver, 16
Lindsay Blair Weaver, 11
Scott James Weaver, 7
Lee Allan Weaver, 62
Donna A. White, 34
Edwin Wiles, 50
Curtis J. Young, 37
Michelle Maria Ziska, 36
Lance E. Schelhaas, 20
Daniel A. Averill, 43
John T. Dickens III, 47
John David Lamanca, 27
John Spahr, 49
Richard Burritt Talbot, 61
DeWitt Stewart Worrell, 54
Steve Wilson Wyant, 38
Denise Kay Jenkins, 28
Joseph Koon Jr., 50
Charlotte Lorraine Langan, 55
William Thomas Langan, 57
Manville Mayfield, 68
Nimish Virendra Oza, 28
Holmes Webb, 51
Jack R. White, 55
Paul Olson, 34
Robert J. Connolly, 43
From what I've read, everything was so chill and pleasant in the cockpit that evening. One of the pilots who was drinking juice said, my wife would like this, she loves pineapple. Kind of a weird detail that has always stuck in my mind and depressed me for some reason. That everything was so nice. Until it wasn't.
Wow, a two year old and an entire family died on this flight 😭
Can we also see those that sadly lost their lives on United 585? Not that I'm asking for it but since that accident was also covered.
@@RBMapleLeaf I posted a comment somewhere in the comments section with a list of those on board flight 585.
there's 6 people with the same last name (3 kids among them) and unless this is a coincidence it's a mighty depressing situation because someone lost 6 members of their family at once
Interesting that Boeing's secretive attitude to the servo actuator problem predates its merger with M-D. So perhaps the change in corporate culture at Boeing, which has been widely blamed on the merger, had actually already begun earlier.
See lauda air 767 1991 cover up.
What's that? An American corporation being scummy? I would have never guessed.
add Jal 123 Boeing was paid big dollars to do a repair right
@@dknowles60 Yes, and they skimped on it, with disastrous consequences (for the passengers and crew, not for Boeing, of course).
Maybe MD and Boieng was a perfect match made in hell.
I haven’t commented on a RUclips video since about 2018, but the fact that your content is on a free platform is crazy, it’s better than many documentaries out there
True
Chloe isdoing the Gods work here. She is such a great aviation and other transport options breakdown analysis. One of the subs I will have notification bells on., would love her to get her million one day soon. Her standards and research into these disaster breakdown series have been incredible to watch and have grown and grown in production value since the start,
A full-fledged documentary, covering multiple incidents, with an immensely deep level of research and collaborations from some of my other favorite creators - this was so worth the wait.
Keep up the excellent work!!!
Yaaaayyy
Hear hear !!!
Love the snark at 34:22. We need more sassy Chloe, especially when there is blatant ignorance at the corporate level.
Another great video, and I loved Plainly Difficult’s appearance! (Plane-ly Difficult?)
This is why you listen to your pilots, copilots, and mechanics/engineers. This is what happens when companies turn a blind eye to concerns raised by their employees. I hope the families of the victims were able to get a monetary settlement of some sort (it's also tragic that no one faced legal repercussions, nor was there public acknowledgement or apology made).
This story effects me personally. My parents have openly admitted in recent years that they regularly flew on the Boeing B737 family during the six year period that the rudder valve was malfunctioning. Right now as I'm typing this comment, ice cold chills are souring their way up my spine as I dread to imagine for a moment the possibility of what if that failure happened while one of my parents were on the plane. I could very well not be here if that happened. Luckily though, since 1996, the valves have not malfunctioned and it appears that the B737 is flying towards a much brighter and safer future... although the story of the Boeing B737 MAX family is, to use your own words, best saved for another day.
Dude! I had a similar thought while watching this. However the experience was more personal as I was the one. I was young (8-9) and don't remember what model plane it was, but wouldn't be surprised if it was a 737 given how prolific they were and are. Hell, I even flew into Richmond in 1990!
my dad was a pilot on the 737 at that time, and I'm very glad nothing bad ever happened to him, we also took flights to family vacations a lot and the 737 was really widespread. I heard of that rudder issue much later and shuddered a bit.
on the other hand, I don't know how many thousand 737s flew around the world back then, most of them multiple times a day, and just 2 crashed. Of course every crash is one too many, but I bet we all did more dangerous things in our lives than flying on a 737. I wouldn't feel too special we made it 😏
I feel that getting away with this probably bolstered their confidence to get away with the whole MCARS thing. i refuse to believe that UAL 585, USA427, LNI 610 and ETH302 are completely unconnected from each other in that sense at least...
No it doesn't. Your parents were not on the crashed. The families and friends of the passengers on the crashed flight were personally affected.
Millions of us travelled on these types of planes during that time, the vast majority of us arrived safely.
I appreciate the great job the NTSB do investigating all crashes.
It’s like a serial killer that keeps getting away, even though you know who it is. And they just keep on claiming lives.
And the serial killer hide there face behind the shoulders of the companies top leaders face of profit.
I remember Mayday covered this. While their show is an hour as well, by the time you subtract ad space and such they only had 40-ish minutes to cram this into. You've definitely added more context to this story. I'm pretty sure Mayday did showcase the 3 crashes, investigators troubles trying to find out what was wrong, the cold shock hard over and reversal eventually being found and showcasing Boeing's fix for it.
But I don't remember Maybe going into Boeing already knowing what was wrong and trying to cover it up. That part of the story sounded new to me.
I'm find the videos here to be much more content dense than a lot of the Mayday episodes, so even if I've seen the incident on Mayday I'm still watching it here. It's high quality content for sure.
They would never go into something like that. Too risky. Lawsuits. And they are owned by the same shareholders as every other company, like Boeing.
They only ever focus on the crash and how it improved aviation safety and only focuses on corruption if it was the number one cause of the crash like any time there is a investigation into a McDonald Douglas aircraft it’s almost always corruption
If Mayday is the one I'm thinking of they also lose at least two minutes after each ad break recapping what happened just before. Hilariously frustrating to watch on UK television as our broadcasters aren't allowed to run ads as often as American ones do, so you watch the end of one section and then go straight into the recap of what you literally just watched 😂😭
@@Ellie-rx3jt That's not an American show. American shows are no better, but Mayday/ACI is Canadian. Blame Canada! (Most of the actors have strong Canadian accents.)
I remember hearing, that one of the engineers or investigators remembered doing the extreme thermal testing which ultimately proved, that the problem part could go wrong, when he was in the military. It was his idea to apply it. Goes to show, how investigators having various backgrounds & experiences can be helpful.
I was stationed at Ft. Carson, CO. in March of 1991, and it is about 5 miles from Widefield Park. I remember driving over there and seeing the smoking remains of UAL 585 in the park, only hours after impact. It was in the middle of the park, so I couldn't see any remnants of the aircraft, but could still see the smoke from the impact crater. I parked on the street and viewed it from between two houses, and remember that there was yellow police tape running the length of the block of homes in their backyards, as these homes backed up to Widefiled Park. There was much talk at the time that the pilots deliberately put the plane down in the middle of this park, which was surrounded by homes on all sides, but after watching this video it is clear to me now that it was pure luck that no one was killed on the ground.
This story brings to mind the "Applegate memorandum" regarding the DC-10's cargo door problem. In both cases, a known problem that the companies kept quiet about until things went terribly wrong.
Early 747s had the same cargo door issues as the DC-10s
@@shaunstrasser1 Similar issues, though less catastrophic due to differences in aircraft design.
got 15 mins in before i realized this is an hour long video. So excited! these videos have only gotten more and more impressive since i started watching them a year or two ago. I love seeing the channel evolve and grow, nice work as always!
Thank you so much for watching even after all this time :)
@@DisasterBreakdownI love in depth videos...but I also watch them on 1.25 or 1.5 speed. I totally understand proper speaking speed and I am NOT criticizing at ALL. Does watching the video faster still count as full viewing, or does is not count due to not taking as long? Just curious because I'd to have it count against creators like yourself.
The loss of flight 427 had a larger effect than you would imagine, live about 2 hours north and some of the volunteers from here went down to help and I think they're still haunted by it. Sad part is this isn't the first time a manufacturer had a bad design that they ignored repeatedly that downed planes.
I was just beginning to work in the mental health field here in Pittsburgh at the time. You are very right. The brave men and women, who worked at that dreadful site were severely traumatized. Blessings, peace and gratitude to those who do these horrific jobs.
Yeah, and unfortunately, that company merged with Boeing. 😮
It seems to me that Boeing think they are a law unto themselves. They must have big bumps in their rugs cuz they have a lot of things swept under them.
Yet another great video. Thank you.
Great video, exploring not just a single accident but a whole saga. Loving the longer, more polished vids, Chloe!
I agree🎉❤
When I first saw this, I thought it was going to be one of episodes for Disaster Averted, didn't think it was going to be apart of the whole broken rudder fiasco. Another well done video!
UA 585 happened in 1991 when I had one year with UA. At the time, we were told the cause was wind shear. Thanks for this investigative report.
I used to hold Boeing in such high regard but not anymore. I listened to this story long ago on “The Flight Channel “ but it suggested that Boeing did not know about the actuator until a flight survived the rudder hard over. Now it seems that they’ve been covering up flaws for a long time now and not just on the Max 8’s
Always follow the golden corporate rule: blame the people who died, such as the pilots (who cannot respond to defend themselves), place the burden on the weather (something we cannot do anything about) and then if all else fails, dump the problem on former management of the company--not your current CEO.
@@765kvline Don't give them ideas!
@@amodmishra3030 Sadly . . . I think it is too late for that . . .
Yes taking the piss is right! I got though 30 minutes of this thinking I was only 20 in going it must be finished soon, boy was I surprised. As always thanks Chloe. Awesome to have Plainly in there too!
Thank you for watching!
This was an enlightening deep dive into this tragic oversight. I was flying B737-200 as a flight attendant in the late 90's and this situation created a lot of fear for passengers and crew alike. Had we known the depth of the circumstances at the time, it would have been much worse and I remember being smoothed over about our fears. We can only believe what we were told at the time. Who knows what was really going on? Yikes. Thankfully, incident free. Your videos are excellent. Keep them going!
So unreal that the Eastwind 737 witnessed the TWA 800 tragedy, how freaky is that??? Good video, thanks x
The exact same 737 to boot.
What kind of moron puts hot A/C components UNDER a fuel tank, tho?? Heat RISES.
I’m very glad now that the B737 is so much more safer than it was during the 90s. Still shouldn’t have taken two(nearly three) crashes/hull loses to fix that faulty rudder.
We need a 737 MAX video and covering what happened on those two crashes as well
Cost-cutting and greed were what happened with the 737 MAX.
Boeing was in the midst of creating an actual clean sheet design (NMA/"797"), but once American Airlines placed 100+ orders for a "new-engined 737" (at the same time they ordered hundreds more Airbus neos) in 2010, they basically canceled the NMA and went all-in on putting lipstick on a pig (creating a 50-year old design with new engines and severely compromised flight dynamics). They even canceled modernizing the vastly superior 757 for that 50-year old plane!!! 😭
@@odeiraoloap its only greed, the 737 max could have been a good plane, modernizing old designs instead of creating new ones can be a good way to keep what is good. B-52 are a good example of that, these planes have twice the age of their pilots but they are highly reliable.
@@elnalaombrebois5665they even remove mcas description in the aircraft manual at first.
which means pilots don't even know what happen at that time.
@@odeiraoloap Wasn't the 757 famously nicknamed "The Pencil" it was basically the plane of its day even though it was a narrow body I believe. Those General Electric / Rolls Royce Engines (I was unsure which engines they were I know the 767 had the P&W 4060 engines)
The 757 had other nicknames but the pencil is one that stand out to me.
@@elnalaombrebois5665 All they did with the currently flying B52s was replace the engines that were basically the SAME SIZE as the Cold War-era engines, not shoehorn engines that were over 3 times the size.
This just shows: never trust a corporation when they try to blame something entirely out of their control, like the weather.
Indeed, you could have stopped at "never trust a corporation". 😑
Putting aside the tragedy, this was a real treat. I love that you manage to combine humour, sarcasm, empathy and incredible detail, along with another favourite in Plainly Difficult. I'm fighting off a chest infection, bored and grumpy, so this is timely, thank you!
i always love to hear a "the pilot would later tell investigators" in the beginning of these kind of videos.
it means that at least some people survived and i can just relax watching the video without googling spoilers.
The fact it took a few crashes and one very lucky incident to finally find the problem and Boeing resolving it is really mind boggling
Its hard to hear that I flew on aircraft that had this issue back in the 90s multiple times and not only did Boeing & PH not care about my safety, they tried to cover up accidents they knew the cause of and stifle investigators. I studied these accidents years ago and its fascinating because it was such a failure on so many levels but I never knew just how many people knew and did nothing or worse. Great work, this is a well-covered series of events and I learned something new.
What an excellent exploration of corporate rot. The deflection and denial on display here is breathtaking. Thank you Chloe for your outstanding work.
I was a little sad when you stopped doing the weekly videos and instead went for the long form, but this is truly one of my favorite ones you've ever done. So good and totally worth it. Thank you for your work!!!
United 427 crashed very close to my hometown. It was something everyone in the area talked about for years. This is the best analysis I've seen of this series of crashes - amazing job!
Another hardcover event happened in 2002 with a northwest 747 over the Pacific Ocean luckily all survived
That was most likely unrelated but still an amazing story how they flew it like that for 2 hours.
@@debbieyochum-ux2cs it was after both accidents but same kind of failure just different aircraft
@@jamesx4952 That was because the aircraft was the prototype 747-400 and the PCU broke because the testing that plane was undergoing before it entered service was very harsh and extreme.
@@debbieyochum-ux2cs the PCU should have been replaced be for being sold to Northwest
@@dknowles60 Yeah it should of been but it wasn’t for some reason.
Some familiar voices I hear!
You are both the voices of my household chores, which may sound strange but I LOVE a good DB or PD vid as I tuck into chores. You both always make my workloads lighter and such well made vids are such a joy to listen to as I get jobs done, and I suspect you have hundreds of viewers shared between you who would say the same!
WOW!!! The production value on this video is through the roof! The accuracy on the CGI model for Colorado Springs and the Western slope is spot on! I almost felt like I was driving down Academy Blvd again...
It's so crowded here now sadly. :( I used to love driving but it's so stressful here nowadays.
You tied the history of these incidents together beautifully. The documentation just chilled me, proof in writing how bad the whole thing was. Another incredible job, thank you.
24:53 I just gotta say how the 737 ultimately is the airplane that keeps on giving. First the all know MAX fiasco, now this. Yikes.
May those who died in both crashes rest in peace.
It’s wild to think how deep this story goes. I’ve watched the videos on these disasters done by Mayday and Mentor Pilot, but neither touched on the internal investigation being done by United, nor the fact that the failure of the servo was known a lot earlier than initially believed.
Amazing work as always in putting this video together.
My favourite part of all your videos is when aircraft that were in someway involved in one accident and survived, find themselves involved in other accidents down the line.
What are the odds that the same 737 the flew Eastwind 517 would also be a 'witness' to the crash of TWA 800? Same with the Trident that had its tail damaged in that accident at Heathrow later going on to crash as BEA Flight 548.
There was also another 747 that had struck it's back end on the runway (i think due to a poor landing), and the same plane lost the tail end a few years later. Sadly, there were more passengers (like 400+),
A Toyota, with its limited passenger capacity will be recalled for a seemingly minor issue, but a whole airline, and manufacturers take chances with hundreds of lives both on and off the sky. Plus, unnecessary PTSD for the recovery team!!
They should be jailing the top fishes for such crimes, the same way they jail incompetent pilots and engineers! This thing would have been corrected the moment the first plane landed.
I'm sure they just said, "What are the odds of a malfunction ...?" End of story
My dad worked for Boeing for 27 years, he would NEVER fly on a Boeing plane EVER until his death.
Wow! I feel like such a fool! Boeing was just a myth, created by a PR dept with help from the govvy.
Glad that my folks considered Airbus more and more nowadays.
Ouch.
If it’s Boeing, I’m _not_ going?
@@moonprincess500 They aren't any better, still a monolithic corporation that only cares about profit.
Then again, French culture is a very safety-minded culture, so that probably has something to do with it.
It's interesting that an LA Supreme Court jury looked at the crash of SilkAir 185 and determined that the rudder was the cause of the crash there as well, despite the NTSB saying it was likely a pilot suicide. The jury/court was not given access or allowed to look at or hear anything about the NTSBs verdict and that they came to this conclusion based on forensic evidence found under an electron microscope with the PCU in the rudder.
the ntsb also tested if a rudder hard over would dive at the same rate that radar showed and it did not as it would have and also a hard over does not explain a manual disabling of the cvr
@@topgun1457 The Indonesian NTSC did a separate report and found that there was inconclusive evidence to determine cause. Occam's Razor is likely at play here, but it's just weird to see how 3 individual reports came to vastly different conclusions
@@camtro033 Occam's Razor did apply IMO, dude literally went broke two weeks before and it was the 20th anniversary of a survivors guilt incident.
Thank you for a stellar job on this video. You deserve a journalism award for your research and analysis. I'm blown away by the superb quality of this video. Congratulations on a job well done!
Wow, thank you for your kind words!
If I am not mistaken of the United crash, the first officer was the first woman to be hired as a pilot for United Airlines
No, the first woman pilot of united is Gail Gorski.
@@MUHAMMADLUQMANAIDIDBINRONISARI ohhhh ok. The one i watched air disasters about this accident the narrator says “at 42, shes one of the first female flight officers in United’s history”
@@joeyragsdale1998"One of the first" is completely different from just "first", that's what they meant with the correction, probably.
@@odeiraoloap yea i mustve misassumed that. My bad
@@joeyragsdale1998I remember that phrase too (in 🇮🇩, the program is named air crash investigation)
Intrigued and curious about this string of accidents and incidents. Ready to fully watch it. Thanks Chloe for producing such a high quality insight!
You are very welcome!
@@DisasterBreakdowngreat video as usual Chloe...do you have any plans to do videos on Airshow accidents /crashes?
Wow. This all occurred before the infamous “reverse takeover” of McDonnell Douglas that many consider the downfall of Boeing. I applaud you; I’ve seen and read numerous accounts of the rudder hardcover incidents, and don’t recall ever seeing this evidence that Boeing was almost immediately aware of the potential cause yet kept it close to the vest. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
I live in the Springs and learned to fly on the Front Range. It’s always (ALWAYS) bumpy. I was utterly terrified on my solo XC. So the mountain-rotor hypothesis would have presented a very plausible get-out-of-jail card for Boeing. And they went with it, just like they went with “stupid third world pilots” a couple decades later.
some of the McDonnell Doughlas employees and higher ups already migrated to Boeing before
My friend was on the plane that crashed in Colorado springs. At his memorial was a USAF Academy painting of a T38 commissioned for his graduating class I noticed the tail number on the t38 was 585, same flight number on the doomed aircraft.
I like the partnership between you and plane difficult! Another banger from disaster breakdown ❤
Wonderful video! I love this indepth look at what caused a crash. Also, hearing Plainly Difficult's voice threw me for a moment but it was a delight to have them included!
Same, my brain was like "Wait, what? I was not expecting this, holy moly!"
Holy fuck this video was incredible. This is better than any documentary on tv or any streaming service.
I love this channel
Please do more crossovers with plainly difficult, I love his content too
I could sense your frustration at the investigation. Such a small part causing so much damage 😢 Thanks for letting Plainly help explain 👍 I've been a fan of his for at least 5 years ❤
Well done! I am very familiar with both the crash in Colorado Springs And Pittsburgh. This was a very thorough unpacking of these incidents.
This video was so well done. All of them are, but I can tell you're in your groove. Been a fan since lock downs started. You're so thorough, I love it!
Chloe the type of girl to just drop an hour long deep dive into a 737 rudder issue on a Friday night, and I'm here for it.
Thank you for your effort in making this video. Seeing all the evidence you've brought to light, is there any chance you could revisit MI-185?
I did know this one straight away because it was something so easy to check and find but because of simple lack of maintenance and regular maintenance checks went a bit too long A part within a part for redundancy was simply faulty or the jackscrew not lubricated . That PSU part was the size and diameter of a pencil and you have the piece in the middle of that . The reason they missed it was because of company performance. Boeing is also a major military contractor and that goes back years . This is why the public were not given straight disclosure.
It was not lack of maintenance it was a design problem.
Remarquable analyse. Difficile d'imaginer le temps dédié aux recherches et à l'édition de ces 58 minutes. Merci !
As much as these longer videos take up a lot of time and energy, the quality absolutely shows. This video was a gem and having guest speakers like Plainly Difficult who I've been watching for a while now made it even better. Can't wait to see your take on the next disaster(s).
John from PD's cameo threw me! great vid, as usual.
He's so cool :)
I really enjoy your new spicy narrative style! 😂 Also very happy to see a collab between you and John, two of my favorite channels.
i'm stoked this is one of my favorite air disaster channels anyway, but this video is all of what i'm about. love the direction you're taking with the channel!
Agree
I am absolutely loving these longer format videos. Thank you for your hard work and your clear and concise explanation of so many tragedies. It is only in studying them that we can avoid them in the future.
Excellent! I was spellbound by this video! Thank you for your extensive research and for the excellent presentation. You outdid yourself on this one!
RIP to all who lost their lives in these tragic crashes.
Awestruck by the depth and clarity of content. Beautiful presentation! Keep up the good work! You are getting better with every video!
you have quickly become one of my favorite youtubers. while i spent over a year just watching your videos here and there, your new approaches to telling these stories have really made me keep coming back for more. amazing work as always and keep it up!! so many flights land successfully every day and people use that to calm themselves, but that means we might end up forgetting just how tragic airplane disasters and crashes can be. how incredibly lucky eastwind 517 was to land with only one injury!!!
Excellent reporting!
I was a frequent airline flyer in those years, and I followed the reporting of these incidents in the newspapers at the time.
It is wonderful, to me, to see someone put all the pieces together, now all of the facts are known.
Well done!
Lovely greetings from Germany. You're making a great job, and I like your calm, respectful voice.
For my opinion, you're the best.
Big, fat thumbs up 👍👍👍
Ups, just seen, it's the voice of "plainly difficult"..
I'm a member of this Chanel too.
There was another 737 rudder hardover incident onboard MetroJet flight 2710 which the rudder pedals moved all the way to the left during cruise. The co-pilot pushed the left pedal to return the rudder to the center position. The pedals did not respond and seemed to be jammed. The pilots disengaged the yaw damper and activated a standby rudder system that utilizes a backup hydraulic valve; the rudder pedals then moved back to center. The cause remains Undetermined.
Fantastic work queen 🙏💜 You can absolutely tell all that hard work payed off! I was just thinking during your last week about hoping to see a little collab work between you and Plainly Difficult, so I definitely smiled when I heard his voice. Absolutely love the work you do!
MUCH BETTER than the Mayday/Air Disasters episode on this subject, lots more fascinating & infuriating info. Excellent work!
Agree to disagree I LOVE the videos but I like air disaster more
This is a phenomenal documentary. Sad that Boeing has never changed.
Lots of appreciation for the level of research and detail that went into this, it absolutely paid off! Great video, as always :)
Wow! I was not expecting to hear Plainly Difficult on this video! What a nice cameo. Great job as always!
This was very well done! Thank you for showing the correct approach 585 had to Colorado Springs from the South to runway 35. (now 35L) Many videos wrongly assume it was from the North as Denver is North of Colorado Springs. I lived about 3/4 of a mile from the crash remember that morning. My Dad was jogging on the Watson Jr. High track and actually saw it go down and was interviewed by the NTSB. He was a volunteer deputy sheriff who helped at the site as well.
Another first class production. Watching the journey you've made in your videos has been an inspiring privilege. Keep up the amazing work.
Outstanding work. Way better than any episode of _Mayday_
The amount of research you put into this really shines through.
I saw another YT video that covers the Denver flight but I couldn't resist continuing to watch your video and am glad I did.
Thank you so much for all your good work.
Good luck and godspeed in all your travels & endeavors.
It's been a little bit since I last saw a video of yours and I just got to say that I love the small edition of comedy. It does help in order to get through the video and it's well placed to not come across as making the light of the situation.
Keep it up!
alright so... ive become a fan of this channel. the production just keeps going up and up and up. like seriously your editing skills are off the charts compared to mine... I dont do all this fancy pants animation stuff :P yes I know... some of it is FS2020. Im talking about the other bits.
keep calm and content on lady.
btw, the new long format is just... phenomenal
I do have a local story to me of a heli crash that may be interesting... not sure how to send you those pieces of info.
About to watch this now. One hour of goodness awaits. Glad to see your videos keep getting better.
Thank you!
I'm a retired airline pilot and I lived in the Boulder, Colorado area at the time of the UA-585 crash. It was a shocking tradgedy.
I was a fairly experienced glider pilot at that time. In the 1970s I had done some glider flights in mountain wave soaring conditions near Pike's Peak out of the now closed Black Forest Gliderport a few miles north of the Colorado Springs airport. On one of my flights I had topped out at 37,000 feet!
Mountain wave can best be explained (I hope) by its analogy to observing a slightly submerged log across a smoothly flowing stream. The water's surface is smooth and undisturbed upstream of the log, but downstream of the obstruction, it forms a series of standing waves with decreasing amplitude the further the water is downstream of the log.
Now imagine a mountain ridge in place of the log and the high altitude winds blowing over it analogous to the water in the stream. The invisible wave of rising air that forms immediately downwind of the ridge can rise as high as four or five times as high as the ridge, depending on how fast the air mass is moving! A glider flown in that wave can soar to incredible heights. I think the current world record is above 60,000'!
The wave is very smooth and laminar, but when you move too far downwind it reverses direction and becomes downward. At the point of reversal and just below it there is a rotating vortex called a "rotor" which is very turbulent. When atmospheric conditions are right a rotor cloud can clearly be seen from the ground. The stronger the wind, the greater the rotor turbulence. In this excellent video that is correctly alluded to as a possible cause of the upset of UA-585.
When I heard about this accident I naturally suspected that this crash might have been caused by the 737 encountering a strong rotor on its final approach to COS. Based upon my experience with mountain wave soaring, that was not an unreasonable assumption.
The 737 like most airliners of that vintage was equipped with a yaw damper. This was mentioned by Chloe in the description of the Eastwind incident where the rudder hardover was corrected by switching off the yaw damper per the checkist. The damper senses small yaw divergences during steady state flight and commands minor rudder deflections to counteract yawing motion that are incidental to all swept wing airplanes ("Dutch roll"). It makes the aircraft easier to control in turbulence and gives the customers a smoother ride.
I wouldn't rule out uncommanded rudder inputs from the yaw damper from inducing the faulty servo valve system to jam, initiating a large scale rudder reversal hard over. The aircraft is normally rolled with ailerons, but a heavily deflected rudder can also cause the aircraft to roll due to a phenomenon called "yaw induced roll", which is likely what caused the UA-585 and USAir crashes.
After the United accident, I was flying with a captain on the DC-10 who had recently come off several years on the 737. He told me that he had experienced a rudder reversal hard over while in cruise at high altitude. He said that it took full aileron and full differential engine thrust to regain straight and level flight. The rudder remained fully deflected and he had made an emergency landing using opposite aileron and differential thrust to maintain control. Maintenence could not duplicate the condition on the ground. The captain reported what had happened to his chief pilot and the FAA. He claimed that the Feds never interviewed him, and as far as he knew, it was never investigated by FAA. This is second hand information and I made no effort to verify it through other sources, so treat it with appropriate skepticism.
Years later after the cause of the United and USAirways crashes was determined to be the faulty design of the rudder boost actuator, I was in simulater training for transition to the 737. We were required to recover from several roll upset events induced by the sim instructor. It was a one time training event. The procedure, best I can remember it, was to apply full aileron and rudder in the direction of roll, and completing it to upright wings level flight attitude. At the time I was flying F-4s in the reserves, so flying momentarily upside down was routine to me, but my sim partner had come up through the general aviation pipeline with no aerobatic training. He found the recovery procedure a bit unsettling, but had no problem performing the maneuver safely.
Yesterday i went on a plane for the first time in 30 years.
Now i can start watching your videos again 😉
Almost an hour-long video!! Congratulations!! ❤ PS. I really like the direction your channel is going to right now, Chloe. These quality and complexity improvements truly make up for all of the waiting period! Keep it up😊
Awesome Job Chloe ❤ I love when you do long videos and your touch on accident investigations amazing job it’s so great for us aviation geeks including me 😊 10/10
I only had to watch this for 2 minutes to know that it was the frozen rudder scandal. Glad to see you working on these bigger topics!
When Plainly Difficult showed up I SQUEALED! Great video as always!
In remembrance to those lost on United Flight 585:
Captain Harold Leon Green, 52
First Officer Patricia Karen Eidson, 42
Flight Attendant Anita Patricia Maria Lucero, 21
Flight Attendant Lisa LaRaine Church, 21
Flight Attendant Monica Smiley, 22
Bonnie Lynn Ausin Bachman, 40
Dan Thomas Birkholz, 35
Andy Bodnar, 41
Mildred Ann Brown, 38
William T. Crabb, 51
Clarence Clay Crawford, 72
Josephine Evelyn Crawford, 65
Robert Louis Geissbuhler Jr., 39
Pamela S. Gerdts, 39
Fred Arthur Hoffman II, 40
Herald R. Holding, 57
Maurice Lamotte Jenks III, 49
Michael Kavanagh, 30
Kevin Scott Kodalen, 29
Andrzej J. Komor, 39
Paula Jean McGilvra, 43
Vincent A. Riga, 55
Lester Keith Ross, 44
Peter Jon Van Handel, 45
Takashi Yoshida, 45
RIP all victims.
Bonnie Bachman was the Off Duty Flight Attendant heading home.
Your comments never cease remind me of the human cost of these tragedies. Just looking over those names, those young flight attendants with promising careers ahead of them. Extremely sad.
@@DisasterBreakdown Thank you for this, Chloe. My goal of archiving passenger lists is to make sure these people are not forgotten, and to actually be people rather than just numbers in a tally. Each of these people had a story. Unfortunately, there are quite a few accidents that have been lost to time, mainly in Soviet-era times, or languages I simply do not understand, or I haven’t been able to find any information on.
@@DisasterBreakdown It sure is a bone chilling to see accidents like these and just in general someone dying of a young age when they had a promising life ahead. I can't say myself for certain but it definitely does haunt me sometimes how young some of the victims are.