What to do when we find another person’s presence not nourishing? | Thich Nhat Hanh, 2014 07 30
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- The full question was: When we find another person’s presence not nourishing, how can we withdraw skillfully? Or should we withdraw?
This question was asked by a teenager during a Q & A session with Thich Nhat Hanh at a summer retreat in Plum Village (2014).
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I have experienced narcissistic abuse. I had to temporarily abandon my empathy for my abuser in order to remain whole. I had to leave the situation for my health. I had PTSD for a year after. But I have empathy for him. I want him to find peace. It just won't be coming from me. I think we can love and have compassion for people from afar. I think sometimes the most compassionate thing is absence, "no", a closed door, and self respect.
I agree, truly that monster the more I showed compassion the more monster came out of him, so scary,
Agreed.
Alot of comments saying this is a dangerous response, that Thay doesn't experience true narcissicism. Thay opposed the Vietnam war, put his life on the line and spoke to world leaders. It was the very worst kind of abuse and violence that he experienced... All around him. Yet he chose the path of compassion and love. We are always quick to dismiss people who hurt us and yes we do need to back away at times. But his advice is to pray about it, get help from others. And try and offer understanding to the other person. That person also has free will but we should always try our best to help others. Because in so doing we are also helping ourselves... We have also been that abusive or un nourishing person (on some level) whether we want to admit it or not
I believe they're only hearing what they choose to. The latent fear of the "narcissist" is clouding their judgement and limiting their ability to truly listen. The "fear for this young girl" is a mirror into their fear for their own vulnerability. Many are probably in the process of healing from or continuing to suffer their past. I wish them all a path of clarity and true healing that they may find peace and happiness ♥️🙏♥️
Well said!@@SYWYRD
The most loving thing you can do for them is walk away sometimes
Grateful for Thay, but this answer is DANGEROUS ⚠️ Boundaries are important.⚠️We can hold compassion without being people pleasers. We cannot help all people.⚠️ IF WE put the "happiness" of others before ourselves we will cultivate co dependent behavior and this will cause us great suffering.
⚠️ We must decide for ourselves where our boundaries are and we can hold compassion from afar. This is a very challenging question.
What if this person we're asking about an abusive partner who is possibly chronically verbally or physically abusive?
Thay seems to be speaking from his experience being surrounded by supportive Sangha. Not all people live in this way. Many people have only the support of themselves.
Many people are born into abusive families and gravitate towards abusive relationships. It is okay to take care of our safety and well-being and it is okay to walk away from abusive relationships.
GABRIEL CRAFT.-I did that using the teachings of Christ. Turn the other cheek, love your energy, do onto others what you would want done onto you. The extreme abuse I experienced was in my family and then I married a very manipulative covertly abusive man. Eventually many years later I had a revelation. No Higher power wants us to be abused or disrespected or accept either and most especially in relationships that are meant to be loving. In our own home. I understand this young girls dilemma at her age I was very inspired by St Francis of Assisi and Make me a channel of your peace.
Mindfulness helps and what I also learned was developing communication skills did not help as the people in question are/were abusive. Metta to all young people with this question 🙏
Thay had lived with people who want to kill him back in Vietnam war, in many years. I agree with your comment but I don't think Thay was speaking with the experience of being surrounded by good people. It could be the opposite, he lived in dangerous time so he had cultivated great compassion & acceptance.
I myself am easily to get affected by negative emotions from other people so I know there is a thin line between "protect yourself" and "weaken your emotional immunity and acceptance". Sometimes we should avoid toxic environments but other time we must engage in difficult situations since they are also unavoidable part of life.
I'm grateful to have the chance to learn about multiple perspectives such as your comment and Thay's teaching.
@@LeKhang98 ⚘🐞
@@LeKhang98 agree with you.
will also caue the world much suffering as well. No is a good answer.
Having too much empathy and compassion can make you a target for narcissistic abuse. This is a tricky subject.
Thank you, this is my experience also. It is a very tricky subject indeed.
This is also my personal experience. Some people are best avoided. This is wisdom. 🔆
Compassion is being aware of the narcissist's many shortcomings. By having boundaries, the narc won't be able to play you.
Agree. As a victims of abuse myself, I practiced all he said and ended up getting hurt verbal and physical in the end. Best advice is to run. Some people are unable to receive help.
I agree. I think we need to avoid people who inflict their suffering on us and do so in a way that does not make us suffer too. I’ve noticed these suffering people tend to bring out the worst in us. Departing with empathy for ourselves (and our boundaries) and their unfixable suffering (narcissists) is the goal but a very hard thing to achieve. Especially when you’ve been broken down and emotionally abused. Our life long journey is not only to be aware of this suffering, but be able to gracefully live a life of peace and happiness.
Self-compassion for oneself first when caught up with a sociopath.
A difficult question.
I asked the plum village for advice when I was 26, in 1995.
I was with a very difficult man, father of my children.
They were very sweet but had no solution for me.
Then I found paramahansa Yoganandas teachings.
Followed his SRF lessons for 3 years.
What a life saver.
I built boundaries.
He was more forthright.
Bad company breeds bad habits.
A drowning man and pull the rescuer down with him.
Narcissistic personality types seek out empathetic types and drain them.
Plum village was beautiful to visit.
It is a collective energy field.
I don't think my ex would of lasted an hour there.
Their cumulative energy would of made him extremely uncomfortable and demasked him.
TNH had many rules and I feel for a young person to try and "love" a stronger energy (negative) will be hard and they will be overwhelmed.
Yogananda taught about boundaries in a way that is healthy for a empath who wants to "save" the world.
Stand back.
Say no.
Follow the teachings of one's guru.
Blessings to all the great teachers.
They each have a message.
🙏
Thank you for sharing this. I am new to Buddhism and have so much to learn but I have two people who are quite emotionally abusive whom I am trying to learn to set better boundaries with to protect myself and my children.
Thank you for this message. Just recently started reading autobiography of a Yogui by Paramahansa Yogananda and your message is encouraging me to go deeper into his teachings as well. This subject is very tricky because compassion and love cannot be given to everyone when there is a strong discomfort inside of us. I just put boundaries and stopped talking with someone who I really appreciated because I couldn't handled it any longer. The best decision was to stop communicating and seeing each other for my spiritual and mental health.
There is something dangerous in this answer. There are people in this world who are dangerous and as this is a young girl asking the question I would have concerns for her safety. The answer is generalised and focussed towards a person in need, but if the person is controlling and narcissistic, the girl should change snider her safety and well being. It is really important to be specific about why this person is not nurturing.
Thanks🙏🏾💜
Tbh I'd like to hear a nun answer thus question There is special danger for women by malevolent predators.
Also teens can be idealistic about their ability to help someone.
Our dear Thay readily acknowledges that he does not understand everything and is not infallible.
*Better question:*
_“how do we handle someone who 1.) regardless how much love & compassion we offer, they always seem to need more, 2.) they repay our efforts with toxicity and abuse, and 3.) We sacrifice other good people (eg coworkers, children) because we’re too busy helping, or even “enabling”, them. This person seems irreparably damaged, an abusive parasite who feeds on the blood of the virtuously compassionate, a hospital patient that demands all nurses and doctors in the ward.”_
This is addressed in his talk on "hungry ghosts"🙏
Some people do need to be cut off. We can cut people out while still holding compassion in our hearts for them.
100%
Especially narcissists. They want nothing but your pain and true suffering.
How to cut them off when you have to see them everyday
@@sun-wo9vp just keep listening to these teachings. Breathe in, breathe out and say to yourself "i know you are suffering" and smile to your pain.
Don't run from the anger or frustration or guilt. Listen to your body, notice when you need to escape to the bathroom to vent (google mammalian dive reflex...it also works with icepacks: hold them to your face, esp cheeks, neck forehead and the area around your ears) and reset with your mindful breathing. It is really really hard to deal with the conflicting emotions. Keep listening to his teachings and exercises and don't be hard on yourself. Learn to notice when you are at home and that person is still in your head. Find a healthy way to vent: weight training, pilates, running, stretching, crying etc and remember to try not to water the seeds of unhealthy emotions. If you can't love this person, at least don't beat yourself up for feeling bad.
Goodluck, i really wish you the best.
And remember that these things are skills that need to be learned practised and take continual work before they become habits.
Seems to me that some individuals are so highly dysfunctional that it’s much better to stay away. One can pray and practice tonglen for them.
Sometime loving at a distance is a good option. But never to abandon them.
MAYBE YOU ARE HIGHLY DYSFUNCTIONAL .
@@stud000000079 abandoning will have to be an option if our lives or our loved ones' lives are in danger from this person.
Difficult subject, and I appreciate Thay's perspective.
However, some people are not just lost, some are very abusive and hostile and don't want help. Anger feeds the ego, and unfortunately too many people have never experienced peace or gotten past their ego. I think sometimes disengaging is the proper, and safe, thing to do. As others have noted, it's a very generalized question and answer.
There's a difference between someone who is not nurturing and someone who is violent and abusive.
I think all females should practice a martial art. If they never need to use it, that's great, but it's a violent world in many ways, alas, and it's good to be prepared.
How wonderful answer to this, for me, difficult question, THANK YOU Venerable Thay for sharing your understanding and compassion with all of us. Evangelina Cortes.
I love Thay, but this time he doesn’t seem to know that the young girl might be speaking of an abusive parent, grandparent, teacher, priest, or someone else she cannot trust. I hope she gets counseling from a different perspective. Bless Thay and the sangha. Namaste 🙏
What to do if that person does not want any help? What to do if that person does not agree with your way of seeing? We all have our own very different perceptions... What to do when that person is not open to change or to new information? Sometimes things are the way they are, nothing to do about it. Like it is just meant to be that way. And maybe that person needs to be abandoned just to be able to feel his/her suffering more, so that the realisation can ripen in them that they need to change something in themselves. .......??
listen and nod. the person will find what they need, somwhere and get better.
This advice is very relaxing, thank you Guillaume! :)
@@rashkehof2458 indeed. don't doze off though. ;)
I agree I know someone that wouldn't expect help or advice as to why people are pulling away from them she just doesn't see it its everyone else and not her...I know she needs help but I feel I'm not that person anymore I have to protect my state of mind around her
this man kill me every time i listen to him. in this world there is a human like him! lots of compassion and love !!!1
Having Understanding towards each other and Unconditional Love for each human being is difficult to practice but NEVER IMPOSSIBLE with PRACTICE ...
Suffering leads to Misery ..
Thankyou for such meaningful answer..
Deepen your purpose...nailed it!!!
Such a great insight - if you continue to suffer you cannot Offer Help..
This insight this view helps me a lot but lacking Friends at this molent makes it difficult to offer help. Now l understand a little better that we both suffer . It is nice to see that such a young person is already offered this beautiful advice.
So much wisdom, I relate to the question. Now Thay not explaining how to fix the situation with withdrawing, but rather seek for understanding and acceptance on both sides, is heart opening ! And I'm inspired with friends and family with whom I feel like the young woman. And to remind the Buddha love everyone is wow !
But what if the young woman was asking about a partner who was abusive? Not all people live in supportive community. Many people are born into abusive families. Many people are trying to survive abusive relationships and they need to be told that it is okay to walk away.
To help with love may not always be the answer. Sometimes you have to allow the fire to extinguish before you can get close to the source.
This sounds really codependent. I don't think it's responsible to promote children to be around abusive people.
I believe many are only hearing what they choose to. The fear of the "narcissist" or "evil" or "abuser" is clouding their judgement and limiting their ability to truly listen with understanding. The "fear for this young girl" is a mirror into their fear for their own vulnerability. Many are probably in the process of healing from or continuing to suffer their past. Thay is quite clear. While the Buddha knew how to kill a man, he never had to. He used his understanding to handle each unique situation as it arose. We only may control ourselves, and the fear of not being able to control the actions/words/intentions of the "enemy" is something we must surpass to find peace. Many questions I see here are also addressed in his talk about "hungry ghosts", perhaps some might find further understanding by seeking out those words. I wish all a path of clarity and true healing that we may find peace and happiness ♥️🙏♥️
I think his experience is limited in this one. He has been close to highly conscious people his whole life and has likely never been in close relation or targeted by a highly narcissistic person in which case staying close to them could be enabling and so not helping them or you. One of my mentors says "everyone is deserving of love but not everyone is deserving of my love." Much respect to Thay, he speaks of what he knows and does what he can.
Excellent comment Jocelyn. Speaking of issues in the abstract as Thay did in his response this time, isn't helpful to people who have to live with energy suckers and abusers. Those people need to be 'loved' from a distance because otherwise we give them ample opportunity to destroy us as we attempt to offer them compassion.
@@ddhqj2023 Yes indeed!
The guy was basically banned from his home country for expressing love and compassion towards both sides of the conflict, despite both sides accusing him of supporting the other party. He knows what he is talking about. And he also knows when there is a limit but the question is about nourishing, not abusive behaviour...
Looking deeply at the Right Action Thay took in opposition to the atrocities of the Vietnam War is a wonderful category of how to engage with someone who is acting in unnourishing ways. Thay did not choose the path of passivity, and he chose the path of compassionate, radical action. It cost him access to his mother country and root temple for nearly the rest of his life. And he showed the world how to turn toxic excrement into fertile mud and blossom like a lotus from the mud of uncertainty and suffering. He did not teach nor model to remain passive and sit in toxic excrement without mindfully engaging . . . with Right Action. Some beings are Hungry Ghosts as Thay describes in many of his teachings--and will seek to "profit" off the Sangha and/or "consume" the Sangha in some way no matter how much the Sangha offers them. The Ninth through the Fourteenth Mindfulness Trainings offer wisdom to my heart on this topic.
I wish Tich Nhat Hans video were easier to listen too. There is always restlessness, coughing and talking in the back ground.
i think it will help if you practise mindfulness and compassion while listening. If you deepen your insight you may realise there could be many reasons for coughing & talking
Peace and Blessings, Everyone.🙏💙☸️
May happiness accompany you with every step, my friend ♥️🙏♥️
for once, I just do not like Thay's response. If you do not like someone - it is YOUR dislike, not theirs, and you cannot assume that they are faulty and in need of your help. Mostly, if you dislike someone, you are objecting to something in yourself and projecting it. The one thing to do is cultivate presence, as he says. Then YOU become more at ease and not such a fault-finding pain-in-the-neck. Imagining you can 'fix' other people - well, that is not going to end well. Ever. Unless you are fully enlightened, in which case you won't be commenting here.
What if that person does not want our help and pushes us away? We cannot keep imposing ourselves on him.
Im sure this is great advice for some situations, but surely there are contexts in which the relationship has to be terminated altogether because neither person has the ability to help the other person and in fact the relationship itself is keeping both people stuck. Andd perhaps these people have trauma (as many of us do) such that they don't have friendships with healthy nourishing people to help them in an effective way.
I think we must take it on a case-by-case basis. We should love all- no debating that. That said, we must also permit wisdom and intuition to guide our actions. There are some, such as my one remaining parent, who can honor best, love and respect best, at a distance. Some people are just not going to change. The will to do so is not there.
I do love most of Thay's teachings. I was awed by this young person's insightful question. It's really important for me not to abandon myself. I know early causes and conditions led me to being lacking in the area of healthy boundaries. One of the most freeing things I did was to let go of a sibling that had no capacity for insight into his behavior. I believe it is a condition called anosognosia. It was the kindest thing I could do for myself after decades of trying prayer, affirmations, meditation, twelve step programs and invoking the Bodhisattvas!
I agree completely. At times these people can be family, but if that's what it takes to keep yourself healthy, then that's what must be done even more so, because they have the natural ability to hurt you simply because of who they are.
Very much needed is experience. If that person is in charge of a grandchild. As dangerous as the situation may be they are adults living their life the best they can. My emotions would put me there attempting harm reduction. And in harm's way. Thankfully I broke my wrist to stop me to care for myself. Two weeks later he was shot and killed. Grandson was safe nearby with other Grandmother. 🙏
Beautiful Child 🙏
I liked the way he talked about this in 30 mins
“If you continue to suffer, the other person will continue to suffer.” 🤔
Yeah that was serious straight up textbook codependency. I love Thay but his response here seems like dangerous advice especially in the case of relationships that involve verbal mental and physical abuse.
@@GABRIEL_CRAFT I wonder about the young people and children’s questions. I’ve listened to quite a few and I see their vulnerability. They are developing children. I can see myself at that age, and imagine being beside Thay and the love and peacefulness he exudes and knowing his strength in adversity, his life story? I think it’s very, very tricky.
You should read his teaching and books. Otherwise its looks strange.
Thank you, Thay!
Could you upload the video for the rest of Thay's answer? I really want to the whole answer
The comments on here saying its dangerous ect are not recognising we are born into an individualistic society and we find this kind of idea frightening ,it is the system of individualism that has created the most damage and many of us suffer from its many destructive paths ,greed ,fighting for what's mine ,my spacey health ,my view, my boundaries always me me me ,in countries where it is collective in thinking Thay's approach can easily be understood ,I think by not seeing this clearly and deeply we think that Thay was asking too much from us ,I think Thay perhaps knew how dramatic the effects of individualism had on everyone and he maintained that self compassion and compassion of another is the only way to break this terrible individualism that we believe is normal but in fact isn't ,it happened to serve those in power who needed slaves (us) to serve them so we were separated from our groups and forced to make money in big cities ect ...
First step is to heal yourself.
But I don’t have friends nor friends who are practitioners :/
สาธุ สาธุ สาธุ หลวงพ่อค่ะ 🙏🙏🙏
TNH made an error here. He is human, a male, and living with ideals of a monk living a rarified existence. I believe he may have harmed this girl through this bit of advice. I hope it didn't prolong her abuse. She looks beaten down badly and so brave to adk him out of desperation and dire need for encouragement to trust her instincts. Instead her experience and instincts were invalidated.
seems to be a gentle sensitive man, but who says he has all the answers?
What if I don't have friends or colleagues and find another presence still not noroushing?
Don't worry, friend. Although it may not be time for you to be happy in the 3D world, there will always be a listening ear in this virtual world. Hope your life could be better and more fulfilled.
@@jameschang659 Thank You for your kind words. Greetings from germany.
@@Krillin1993 To be honest, I saw your replies and hope I can be of help to you. I am not trying to impose or anything but if you need an accountability partner or a friend in your struggles, hit me up. I can be found at the Conquered Self forums under the name Fargone. Hope to see you soon.
Exactly. Many people do not live within a supportive community. Many people exist in abusive families and abusive relationships. It is important that we draw boundaries and take care of ourselves first. What if this young person was asking about a verbally or physically abusive partner?
Thay is my teacher.
What if we are not fortunate enough to have your sangha where we live?
You can always find wise people around you. They are very easy to accept friendships.
@@stud000000079 unfortunately I have not yet found a wise selfless person
@@pureintentions7 he or she does not have to be completely selfless. We may never find friends if we are trying to look for perfect people.
@@stud000000079 only meant for the books. Practically very few have really good friends.
Não tem tradução 😢😢😢😢
Sometimes even Thich Nhat Hanh talks past the other person.
That said, I did think it was insightful that he recommended to bring other people into the mix.
Also, he at least conceded that breaking off a relationship abruptly could be destabilizing *for the questioner* and not just for the hypothetical person.
A very good answer! ☀️🌈🌹🐰💋🎀😍🦄🐞😘🙏❤️🦋
I love and respect Thich Nhat Hanh like the world do but this advice is not healthy for many of us. Narcissists is in abundance and if you don't run you will be destroyed. Don't try to fix one or think if you keep giving they will change. No one can make a narcissist a nicer person. Been there done that! Young Lady if a relationship is unhealthy move on.
🙏🏽💝🌹
I wonder why people a speaking in the back ground. Not very respectful.
these are the translators for the people who do not speak english :D
Inspiring
1:22
caritatem et pacem
Pastor
🙏😘🌻
hi army ·ᴗ·
Yea, but abuse...
Couldn't someone with a halfway decent microphone have recorded this important conversation? Surely someone's out there with technology today to clean this up so it is possible to listen without resorting to drugs or drink.
It will wipe out your last life's karma
Debbie Krasniqi - what did you mean? That sticking with them will wipe out your karma ? Thanks for clarifying.
🙏
Would you be nice and stop withdrawling money from my account plum village thiefs, do nit donate to plum village