My personal theory for the inhabitants of harondor (at least during gondorian rule), is that it was composed of dunedised haradrim (as opposed to the dunedised "middle men" of central gondor or the dunedised northmen of gondorian rhovanion, back in the day), as well as probably the last remnant of "pure" haradrim culture free of sauron's influence.
Additionally, during all the conflicts with the haradrim and sauron and the Castamir loyalists, it's likely that a significant amount of those Gondlrian haradrim fled north to Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, Pelarigir, and Belfalas, among other cities. Possibly this led to the establishment of "Chinatowns" (as in, areas primarily composed of gondorian haradrim and which practised haradrim culture and tradition) within gondorian cities. No textual evidence for this, but it's a cool idea.
Agreed, though Haradrim is an extremely broad term (it basically refers to everyone living south of Gondor) so there's probably no single Haradrim culture group.
@@SNWWRNNGtrue, when I say haradrim here I'm refering to near harad exclusively. It's not like there were jungle men and (native) mumakil in harondor.
My headcanon for Harondor is that, at the beginning of the Third Age, it was comprised of a collection of independent Númenórean city-states that mostly hugged the coast (with the northern ones being of the Faithful and the southern ones being of the King's Men), while the interior was dominated by warlike tribes of Southrons.
I've always felt that Harondor might well be dry scrubland as it's south of the Ephel Duath and would be exposed to dry East winds, unlike Ithilien, which might reduce rainfall significantly. just a thought.
I remember your video about problems in tolkiens world building, like populations of people appearing out of nowhere and with the way Aragorn seemingly was able to repopulate and acquire control most of Gondor's and Arnor's former territory. So, how was Aragorn able to repopulate the like's of Harondar, Ithilien, Annuminas, Tharbad and who knows how many other places with an exhausted weary population, that was bleed nearly dry after centuries of warfare.
There was a massive population boom in the north and in the south, and in Rohan too. In Arnor, since there was a state again, there could easily be some tens of thousands of people born in only a few years
@@anti-liberalismoalso in Arnor, Breeland was doing pretty good, and combine that with the rangers returning to society, and an influx of settlers due to all the gondorians who lost their homes in the war, and it's easy to imagine that Arnor's population quintupled within a decade or so.
With the orc threat gone after Sauron was finally defeated we can assume vast stretches of land that was previously out of reach became available for settlement which would result in alot more food production + breathing room resulting in a much higher population growth
I feel like a good video idea could be reviewing and exploring the accuracy of Crusader Kings 3 with the Realms in Exile mod. They've done some really good work!
Great video. Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) does a credible job in fleshing out Harondor in their Southern Gondor Module. I tend to believe that Gondor would have controlled the northern part of Harondor up to the fall of Minas Ithil. Afterwards their control would have quickly faded as more an more they would have to reorient their forces East towards Mordor itself. They probably would maintained a narrow strip along the Anduin stretching down the coast until it was level with Tolfalas and kept a few border forces along the Poros. The Haradrim Invasion of 2885 spelled the end of Gondor's buffer in Harondor.
Could you do a video analyzing the Ar-Adûnaim? While not canon, it would be cool to hear you discuss whether such a faction could exist or whether there could be a group of King's Men who neither got along with the Faithful nor with Sauron. It would also be interesting to get your take on their perspective, their population stats, etc. I bring this up since you did that Divide and Conquer battle royale video a while back, and the Ar-Adûnaim are from that mod.
I mean, the lore pretty much implies that there were more Numenorian Colonies to the South of Umbar, many of them populated by Kingsmen. And as all Kingsmen of Numenor, they would have seen themselves above the local men, would have sought lordship over them or at least to be left alone in their colonies, and as all the others they would have been usurped or overthrown at some point as their power had been spent by the ages.
My personal image of Harondor is that it has forests and shrublands around the coast and rivers and gets increasingly arid the further south/east you go
Excellent video as always! I've always had a strong curiosity for these border provinces that are almost never talked about. Harondor in particular seems strategically important yet we know very little about it; it does basically just seem like one of those perpetually disputed lands; if we continue the analogy with real-world history, it reminds me a lot of the strip of land that served as a border between the Roman/Byzantine world and the Persian/Saracen/Islamic world, specifically the highlands of the Tigris and Euphrates (today's Syrian-Turkish border, and East Syria in general); the cities there were often conquered, sacked and depopulated over centuries of warfare, and were all basically fortress cities for which war was commonplace.
We know that Elessar did make conquests in the south, riding along with Éomer. Because Harondor would be the first place in the way, I would assume that it rejoined the Reunited Kingdom at this point, since Elessar did retake Umbar and Harondor would have been first in the way (I guess Elessar could have invaded Umbar by sea, as he did while masquerading as Thorongil, but the fact that Éomer was involved makes me think he did it by land, or at the very least that a land invasion was involved, and so Harondor would have still been along the way).
I suspect there was a major power struggle among various factions of the Haradrim after Sauron fell. We do know that Aragorn did spend quite a bit of time at points during his reign fighting against the remnants of Gondor's foes so my personal theory is that not only did he retake Harondor for Gondor but Umbar as well.
Most likely he established a fortified border and used existing cities along the rivers and coastline as center points of defence, therefore Umbar and other cities make a lot of sense.
Harondar is one of those places that's endlessly fascinating because there's basically very little on it. There could have been a lot of interesting stories to tell.
Thanks once more my dear Sir. Another excellent vid with curious and entertaining info. I wanted to take a moment also, to mention a particular book you may or may not be familiar with. I know you have strong knowledge of the History of Middle-Earth series Christopher gifted us with and ideally, you also possess. All twelve volumes, together with Unfinished Tales, make for astounding reading and though more technical in nature than the novels, have a vast array of stories worth reading in and of themselves. Were you aware that there is in fact a 13th Volume? It's called, simply enough; The History of Middle-Earth Index. It contains a treasury of all the names of peoples, creatures, places, even distinct items and catalogues them alphabetically. Following each name, is the Volume, Chapter and even page within the Histories, within which it appears. This has proven an invaluable resource to me, as often I can't quite recall within which of the many books a particular subject was explored. Back when it first was developed, it was offered as a "Print on Demand" volume, by Harper Collins (hard cover, of course). (I'm not sure if Houghton Mifflin also published it.) Since then, it may be available off the shelf, I'm not altogether certain. VERY highly recommended! Cheers, my friend. 😊
That's awesome, I was hoping for this. Hey mate, can you also do the Withered Heath. I was always curious to know, if that region was the breeding ground of dragons... why didn't they spread forth into the lands of Men in great numbers? What kept them isolated in that bleak land?
It certainly became the cockpit of the armies of Gondor and harad fighting it out for dominance over this important border province and buffer state that contained the strategically important port of Umbar, Once has to wonder if Gondor first conquered the region and tried to hold on to it for so, was barring the strategical being necessities down to it being a hand populated by a strong numenirian exiled population even if they were the kings men, before eventually forced to integrate with Gondor
6:31 it wouldn’t make much sense strategically to totally withdraw from the region Harondor provided a needed buffer between harad and the heartlands of Gondor without it only the great River Anduin would provide any natural defenses for the important port cities like Pelagir and Dol Amroth and yes I’ve played a lot of third age total war so I’ve overanalyzed the geography Btw for my fellow total war players if your playing Gondor or any good faction and you want to give her a fighting chance build one ship and have it stationed by that little island in the middle of the Anduin river off Pellagir in doing so you have denied harad or Mordor a strategic crossing to strike into the heart of Gondor overwhelming her this way when Saroun gets the ring Gondor can stem the tide 8/10 playthroughs if you leave it too late to send a ship and Gondor looses Ithilian and Harondor then she will be overrun
It is possible that Harondor required a lot of irrigation to sustain agriculture, and after all the wars it was both deserted of people and turned into (semi-)desert because the irrigation was abandoned, so both meanings may be correct simultaneously. I doubt that the population of Harondor was high during the War of the Ring and there are no mentions of any polity that existed there. The political situation there may be similar to "the Wild Field". that separated the principalities of Rus' from the khanates of Tatars during the late Middle Ages, with huge areas of land inhabited only by adventurers and outlaws (later known as the Cossacks).
2:37 The first 'Ship King'--did not 'conquer', however...did travel as 'prince', confirmed 👍🏻 3:13 to 3:18 'Three more Ship Kings followed...' 6:136:537:21 to 7:26 🙄1944
My personal theory for the inhabitants of harondor (at least during gondorian rule), is that it was composed of dunedised haradrim (as opposed to the dunedised "middle men" of central gondor or the dunedised northmen of gondorian rhovanion, back in the day), as well as probably the last remnant of "pure" haradrim culture free of sauron's influence.
Additionally, during all the conflicts with the haradrim and sauron and the Castamir loyalists, it's likely that a significant amount of those Gondlrian haradrim fled north to Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, Pelarigir, and Belfalas, among other cities. Possibly this led to the establishment of "Chinatowns" (as in, areas primarily composed of gondorian haradrim and which practised haradrim culture and tradition) within gondorian cities. No textual evidence for this, but it's a cool idea.
Agreed, though Haradrim is an extremely broad term (it basically refers to everyone living south of Gondor) so there's probably no single Haradrim culture group.
@@SNWWRNNGtrue, when I say haradrim here I'm refering to near harad exclusively. It's not like there were jungle men and (native) mumakil in harondor.
My headcanon for Harondor is that, at the beginning of the Third Age, it was comprised of a collection of independent Númenórean city-states that mostly hugged the coast (with the northern ones being of the Faithful and the southern ones being of the King's Men), while the interior was dominated by warlike tribes of Southrons.
@@generalgrievous2202 The idea of Haradrim "chinatowns" in Gondor is actually really cool.
the polish translation for Harondor, or South Gondor, also translates the "desert land" as "deserted" rather than arid and sandy
I've always felt that Harondor might well be dry scrubland as it's south of the Ephel Duath and would be exposed to dry East winds, unlike Ithilien, which might reduce rainfall significantly. just a thought.
I remember your video about problems in tolkiens world building, like populations of people appearing out of nowhere and with the way Aragorn seemingly was able to repopulate and acquire control most of Gondor's and Arnor's former territory. So, how was Aragorn able to repopulate the like's of Harondar, Ithilien, Annuminas, Tharbad and who knows how many other places with an exhausted weary population, that was bleed nearly dry after centuries of warfare.
baby boom?
There was a massive population boom in the north and in the south, and in Rohan too. In Arnor, since there was a state again, there could easily be some tens of thousands of people born in only a few years
@@anti-liberalismoalso in Arnor, Breeland was doing pretty good, and combine that with the rangers returning to society, and an influx of settlers due to all the gondorians who lost their homes in the war, and it's easy to imagine that Arnor's population quintupled within a decade or so.
With the orc threat gone after Sauron was finally defeated we can assume vast stretches of land that was previously out of reach became available for settlement which would result in alot more food production + breathing room resulting in a much higher population growth
In addition to the previous points, remember Aragorn ruled for over a century. Populations can grow enormously in that length of time.
I feel like a good video idea could be reviewing and exploring the accuracy of Crusader Kings 3 with the Realms in Exile mod. They've done some really good work!
I need to actually check this one out. I've vaguely followed it on Steam, but never actually played it.
@@DarthGandalfYT hope you check it out and enjoy it!
Great video. Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) does a credible job in fleshing out Harondor in their Southern Gondor Module. I tend to believe that Gondor would have controlled the northern part of Harondor up to the fall of Minas Ithil. Afterwards their control would have quickly faded as more an more they would have to reorient their forces East towards Mordor itself. They probably would maintained a narrow strip along the Anduin stretching down the coast until it was level with Tolfalas and kept a few border forces along the Poros. The Haradrim Invasion of 2885 spelled the end of Gondor's buffer in Harondor.
Could you do a video analyzing the Ar-Adûnaim? While not canon, it would be cool to hear you discuss whether such a faction could exist or whether there could be a group of King's Men who neither got along with the Faithful nor with Sauron. It would also be interesting to get your take on their perspective, their population stats, etc. I bring this up since you did that Divide and Conquer battle royale video a while back, and the Ar-Adûnaim are from that mod.
I mean, the lore pretty much implies that there were more Numenorian Colonies to the South of Umbar, many of them populated by Kingsmen. And as all Kingsmen of Numenor, they would have seen themselves above the local men, would have sought lordship over them or at least to be left alone in their colonies, and as all the others they would have been usurped or overthrown at some point as their power had been spent by the ages.
My personal image of Harondor is that it has forests and shrublands around the coast and rivers and gets increasingly arid the further south/east you go
Excellent video as always! I've always had a strong curiosity for these border provinces that are almost never talked about. Harondor in particular seems strategically important yet we know very little about it; it does basically just seem like one of those perpetually disputed lands; if we continue the analogy with real-world history, it reminds me a lot of the strip of land that served as a border between the Roman/Byzantine world and the Persian/Saracen/Islamic world, specifically the highlands of the Tigris and Euphrates (today's Syrian-Turkish border, and East Syria in general); the cities there were often conquered, sacked and depopulated over centuries of warfare, and were all basically fortress cities for which war was commonplace.
Thanks for the content
another upload yeahhh
We know that Elessar did make conquests in the south, riding along with Éomer. Because Harondor would be the first place in the way, I would assume that it rejoined the Reunited Kingdom at this point, since Elessar did retake Umbar and Harondor would have been first in the way (I guess Elessar could have invaded Umbar by sea, as he did while masquerading as Thorongil, but the fact that Éomer was involved makes me think he did it by land, or at the very least that a land invasion was involved, and so Harondor would have still been along the way).
I always imagined Harondor similar to South Italy.
Hi Darth!
I'm confused. Did Gondor attempt to maintain some control over Harondor at this point?
I suspect there was a major power struggle among various factions of the Haradrim after Sauron fell. We do know that Aragorn did spend quite a bit of time at points during his reign fighting against the remnants of Gondor's foes so my personal theory is that not only did he retake Harondor for Gondor but Umbar as well.
Most likely he established a fortified border and used existing cities along the rivers and coastline as center points of defence, therefore Umbar and other cities make a lot of sense.
Love your content, so cool bro😎😎😎😎😎
Harondar is one of those places that's endlessly fascinating because there's basically very little on it.
There could have been a lot of interesting stories to tell.
Thanks once more my dear Sir. Another excellent vid with curious and entertaining info.
I wanted to take a moment also, to mention a particular book you may or may not be familiar with.
I know you have strong knowledge of the History of Middle-Earth series Christopher gifted us with and ideally, you also possess.
All twelve volumes, together with Unfinished Tales, make for astounding reading and though more technical in nature than the novels, have a vast array of stories worth reading in and of themselves. Were you aware that there is in fact a 13th Volume?
It's called, simply enough; The History of Middle-Earth Index. It contains a treasury of all the names of peoples, creatures, places, even distinct items and catalogues them alphabetically.
Following each name, is the Volume, Chapter and even page within the Histories, within which it appears.
This has proven an invaluable resource to me, as often I can't quite recall within which of the many books a particular subject was explored.
Back when it first was developed, it was offered as a "Print on Demand" volume, by Harper Collins (hard cover, of course).
(I'm not sure if Houghton Mifflin also published it.)
Since then, it may be available off the shelf, I'm not altogether certain. VERY highly recommended!
Cheers, my friend. 😊
Harondor kinda reminds me of the disputed lands in essos in game of thrones universe
Sounds like a great place to set a TTRPG campaign after the War of the Ring!
That's awesome, I was hoping for this. Hey mate, can you also do the Withered Heath. I was always curious to know, if that region was the breeding ground of dragons... why didn't they spread forth into the lands of Men in great numbers? What kept them isolated in that bleak land?
I would also like to see whatever lore is available for the Withered Heath and the rest of that area north of Rhovanion!
Grey Mountains/Withered Heath is definitely on the to-do-list. Both places appeal to me.
It certainly became the cockpit of the armies of Gondor and harad fighting it out for dominance over this important border province and buffer state that contained the strategically important port of Umbar,
Once has to wonder if Gondor first conquered the region and tried to hold on to it for so, was barring the strategical being necessities down to it being a hand populated by a strong numenirian exiled population even if they were the kings men, before eventually forced to integrate with Gondor
6:31 it wouldn’t make much sense strategically to totally withdraw from the region
Harondor provided a needed buffer between harad and the heartlands of Gondor without it only the great River Anduin would provide any natural defenses for the important port cities like Pelagir and Dol Amroth and yes I’ve played a lot of third age total war so I’ve overanalyzed the geography
Btw for my fellow total war players if your playing Gondor or any good faction and you want to give her a fighting chance build one ship and have it stationed by that little island in the middle of the Anduin river off Pellagir in doing so you have denied harad or Mordor a strategic crossing to strike into the heart of Gondor overwhelming her this way when Saroun gets the ring Gondor can stem the tide 8/10 playthroughs if you leave it too late to send a ship and Gondor looses Ithilian and Harondor then she will be overrun
Brazilian Portuguese translation says "agora uma terra disputada e deserta", in the sense it is currently empty instead of havung become a desert.
Im still waiting for the Lostladen video ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
It is possible that Harondor required a lot of irrigation to sustain agriculture, and after all the wars it was both deserted of people and turned into (semi-)desert because the irrigation was abandoned, so both meanings may be correct simultaneously.
I doubt that the population of Harondor was high during the War of the Ring and there are no mentions of any polity that existed there. The political situation there may be similar to "the Wild Field". that separated the principalities of Rus' from the khanates of Tatars during the late Middle Ages, with huge areas of land inhabited only by adventurers and outlaws (later known as the Cossacks).
I knew this video will eventually come
If it was a desert in the arid sense I think it would more sparse shrub/grassland rather than sand dunes like the deep sahara
2:37 The first 'Ship King'--did not 'conquer', however...did travel as 'prince', confirmed 👍🏻 3:13 to 3:18 'Three more Ship Kings followed...' 6:13 6:53 7:21 to 7:26 🙄1944
🌵🌵🌵Lostladen Desert🌵🌵🌵 ??? 💜💙💚💛🧡❤️ ???
So Rohan is practically Forondor?
I guess it could be.
Harondor is Serbia.. I mean Gondor
Like the comment if you're older than Serbia...I mean Gondor
@@anti-liberalismoonly elves can like this comment!!!
Funny that harondor is just harad + Gondor
I love this channel! May your subscribers grow to a million and beyond!
🧝🏻♂💍🧟♂🦅🧌🐉🧙🏻♂🐎
First