20:08 Thanks for plugging Plus/4 World :-) I've been running it for more than 20 years now. Last month I finally opened a Pat Reon for it (link in the footer), but I guess without a large social media presence, it's not really happening. Oh well :-)
I got a C16 for my 13th birthday and immediately noticed the dearth of any kind of support here in North America. Luckily I found a dedicated mail-based users group in a magazine and joined. We started as a small bunch of BASIC 3.5 enthusiasts sharing our handiwork via tape, but quickly became disk-based "underground games traders" once we got wind of Europe's brilliant efforts with the TED line. If it wasn't for this group providing a lifeline that never emerged here in retail, my C16 would have been abandoned to the closet long before it critically failed a couple years later, to be replaced with a more dependable C64.
The improved color palette wasn't the only upgraded feature over the 64. BASIC V3.5 was more improved than the C64's BASIC V2. BASIC 3.5 had better disk commands, program loop control, joystick control, sound and graphic commands, in addition to a built in assembly monitor - amongst other improvements.
Also the 1551 drive is four times as fast as the really slow 1541 (which is of course because of Commodore messing up the data handling hardware on the computer side).
Fantastic video. Another thing about the Plus/4 built in software is that it required a floppy drive. It wasn't possible to use the database at all without one. Oddly the function keys were pre-programmed with floppy drive commands (apart from HELP). Not exactly sensible on the C16. Also, SHIFT-RUN/STOP was for floppy too (from what I can remember). I used someone's C64 that had the C16 tape deck with adaptor, which I thought was odd at the time. Years later I realised what most likely was the reason, and this video confirmed it. Also, the new ports were way easier to damage the plugs of. Edit: Oh yes, the BASIC was much better than on the C64, and of course the VIC-20 it was supposed to replace. I would love to get a C16 or Plus/4 again, but for now I'll stick to emulation and the massive archive I have.
One thing no one talks about is that the (original NTSC) TED CPU and video timings are identical to the Atari 8-bit, resulting in the same pixel aspect ratio (also shared by Apple, CGA, Ti-99, CoCo, Amiga, and many others). In fact, the (original NTSC) VIC-20 and C64 are weird outliers in that they have narrower pixel aspect ratio that allows the elimination of composite chroma artifacts. The bottom line is that the NTSC C16 suffered the same composite chroma artifacts as Atari 8-bit and other home computers of the era. However, no one noticed or cared because by the time it came out, North American home computer users bought monitors - and Commodore monitors were connected by S-Video. Weirdly, the narrow pixel aspect ratio of the NTSC C64 would become VERY well known later on, when Capcom made a mistake designing their CPS hardware. Originally they intended it to have a square pixel aspect ratio, but they made a mistake and by the time they noticed it was too late. By pure coincidence, the narrow pixel aspect ratio matched the NTSC C64.
Interesting. You mean narrower pixels? Can a ratio be narrow? I have seen videos comparing games on C64 with Atari, and the aspect ratio really seems to be very different.
@@MaxQ10001 Yes narrow pixels. Due to the way NTSC color works, most 8-bit systems used a pixel aspect ratio of 7:8 (this is also the pixel aspect ratio of DVDs). These pixels are a bit narrow, but still pretty close to square. The NTSC C64 pixels are significantly narrower, with a 7:9 ratio. You can most easily see this by looking at the classic C64 boot screen, because the characters are 8x8 pixels in size. The narrow pixels gives each text character a somewhat pleasant "tall" appearance rather than the more fat and square appearance of most others. There are technical reasons why this pixel aspect ratio made sense for the C64, but anyway the bottom line is that 40 characters took up a much smaller fraction of a scanline and this left a lot of cycles left over for the C64's famously large sprites (8 sprites of 24 pixel width on a scanline). As for the Capcom CPS board ... uhhh ... there's no technical reason for its pixels to be the same size as the C64. It was just a mistake and a coincidence. Oops! But regardless, it would define the look of classic Capcom games like Streetfighter II.
Who cares about more colors, when you have worse animation and far worse sound? I didn't switch from C64 to Atari ST just because of sound, I went to Amiga500
@@CaptainDangeax I'm not sure precisely what your meaning is, but the C16 was intended to be a replacement for the VIC-20, not the C64. And it's better than the VIC-20 all around, in terms of hardware capabilities. However, by the time the C16 and Plus/4 came out, Jack's price war against Texas Instruments brought the C64's price down enough to destroy the VIC-20 and all of its competition. We'll never know what might have happened if Jack didn't have his vindictive vendetta against TI.
My first computer was the Plus/4 which I got for Christmas 1985. My parents got it from Debenhams in Cardiff. I was slightly gutted as my neighbour across the road had a C64
Commodore Plus/4 was my very first computer. It was both blessing and a curse: lack or poor games kinda forced me into explorations: programming in Basic (pretty decent version 4.0) and then Machine Language (yes, there was a built-in Machine Language Monitor). After all these years (oh-time-flies-so-fast) I think everything I'm today as the IT engineer started at that time, with this tiny machine. Nostalgic...
I forgot about icicle works, brings back fond memories. I was given a plus 4 for Christmas as they were half the price of the c64. Naturally I wanted the c64 as my friend had them
Atari had it in the 70s . How much transistors do we need to store the palette? I never understand why the 6502 did not get more registers in the 6510. How do sprites work with color? I feel like they would need an 1 bit alpha channel. Then resolve priority. Then ask the winning sprite or background to put the index on a bus. If this is 1, use spriteId . Then look up color. This is kinda obvious in the two PPUs in the pcEngine. So total number of colors adds not cost to sprites. C64 VIC-2 has 12 data bits and runs at 2 MHz vs 8bit TED and 1.8 MHz . Only difference is that in bitmap multicolor mode VIC-2 has 3 color attributes vs 2 on Ted.
And that BASIC and the programmable macro (function) keys and the easy (if rudimentary) text windowing and the 60K of free RAM (on the plus/4) and a faster CPU and disk drive… sigh.
My Commodore 16 ran hot and cooked itself. If you have one, I'd suggest using a desk fan to keep it cool. One of the fun things: The BASIC / OS in the Commodore 16 is identical to what the Plus/4 had.
Great overview of these models. I was still centered on the C64 when these computers came out so I learned a lot about them. Well worth the anticipation for this video after seeing the close poll results.
Ted was a response to the sinclair spectrum 16k. The vic2 yields were not good enough at the time, it ran too hot because of the sprites. So it made sense to start a cheaper product ans then it made sense to try out various products based around the chip The 16k spectrum turned out to not be a ttheat once 48k software came out and vic2 yields improved. Jack had left and nobody knew how to run commodore The 116, 264 and then 364 came first. The 232 and c16 came later. The 232 didnt make sense due to the cost of ram, so it never made it out The 264 was going to be sold in various bundles, the +4 bundle was the only one that survived. There was a trademark issue with the name they were going to use.
Regarding the colour palette and its reduction in the C64, I recently undertook a (somewhat pointless) study into how Amstrad could have increased the palette of the CPC range from 27 to 216 and then 729 colours (even if only 16 could be an sccreen at once without timing trickery) simply by doubling up the RGB pins. It might be worth your while discussing how the old computers generated colour and mapped it to screen. The Spectrum and C16/64 used means of manipulating the luminance-chrominance signals, whereas the BBC and Amstrad generated RGB (the BBC just digitally and the Amstrad used hi-Z states on GPIO for greater numbers of levels, which I manipulated in my gedankenexperiment).
Older chips only has one pin. VIC-2 had separate pins for luma and chromance. So these don’t fight for bandwidth as much. The chromance signal is modulated by multiplying with sine and cosine. Multiplication gets real chip for low bits. So for 256 colors, invest 4 bits for luma. Then you get away with 2 bit multiplications. Both and signed ints do not really change this.
On RGB systems adding more colours is trivial since you simply need a few more resistors in the resistor ladder used to convert a digital R, G or B level to analogue. The problem is, if you have more colours, you need more memory for the screen buffer. At 3 bits per pixel (8 colours), a 320x200 screen needs a 24K frame buffer. That's already a substantial amount of memory both in financial cost and in space on a system with only 64K of address space. Bump that up to 256 colours (3/3/2 bits per pixel for R/G/B) and now you're up to 64K just for the screen buffer. Non-RGB systems that generate NTSC or similar colours directly work quite differently, but in the end you still have the same problem: more colours means more memory.
While the C16 was actually absolete and only causes confusion among retailors and consumers. And so i was actually about to say that the C16 shouldn’t exist since many corners were cut. But since an upgraded 64K C16 could handle AMEZING looking homebrew games, I do see lots of potential in that system nontheless😁
Jack intended the Commodore 116 to cost only $49 and it would have been very successful at that price. He intended it to be a replacement for the VIC-20 which also had graphics and sound on one chip and no sprites., but beat the VIC-20 in CPU speed, RAM, resolution, colour palette and BASIC. Jack intended the Plus/4 to be for small businesses that couldn't afford a real business computer at $1,000 or more. They should have not released the Plus/4 and instead offered a Commodore 64 with a bundle of business apps.
My first computer was the VIC-20 and I have a lot of nostalgia for it so I can easily see how someone who had a Commodore 16 or Plus/4 would have a lot of nostalgia for it. The Commodore 16 was essentially an enhanced VIC-20 as it had graphics and sound on one chip and no sprites, but had a faster CPU, more RAM, higher resolution, more colours, and a better BASIC. If only it had come out when the VIC-20 was discontinued and was sold for $49 as Jack intended, then it would have been very successful.
My mum bought us a C16 back in the mid 80's here in Australia. My very first game was Jack Attack and I was around 8 at the time. I can't remember what happened exactly, but we only had the computer for a few weeks before we took it back to the store and upgraded to the C64 instead. I'd glad we did!
I had a C64 as a kid, and I remember wanting to find a dead C16 so I could put my C64's innards into that cool looking black case. Unfortunately, it never happened.
Some can wonder why Commodore was going backwards by 1984 instead of find ways to make a cheaper version of the C64, and keeping the C64 as their base standard for 8-bit computers until the Amiga came out.
Yes, I have a Plus/4 somewhere that I want to look at on the channel but I can't get to most of my stuff at the moment and tried to look for it twice without success (I have too much stuff!). I did find my Amiga 500 the other day though, so I am sure it will turn up eventually.
The problem the Japanese presented was they got you the same product for half the price. There wasn't really a risk with home computers because they were just selling low-end machines. Plus the price of the commodore 64 was rapidly going down as the price of stuff like memory went down
When i was a teenager mid 8ties, really did not get all those side releases after the C64. Including the 128 and 128D although i owned the latter. Learned from previous mistakes Commodore thought it was an even greater plan to do it once again with the later released Amiga computers.
My mate had a Plus 4 and I remember I told him I knew how to create the floating blue ball from the film Explorers. Of course this was a lie but when I couldn't, I told him it worked on my Spectrum so it must be a Commodore problem. Spent the day playing one of the racing games shown in the video instead.
My first computer was a C16 while unfortunately I do not still have that computers I do have a +4, I miss those days says the guys sat in front of 6 HD monitors running from a single computer.
I was playing with c16 computer, the games were amazing at those times. Many children loved the computer, the games were copied from others, that is why people bought it. I Europe the Commodore ruled the market, the PC was for the industry, and the Sega, Nintendo was for western countries.
I have a C16 as well as a Plus4 in the collection. Can;t say I've done an awful lot with them though. One of these days. Cool to see that there's an active home brew community.
I found two Plus/4s at two different yard sales and they both worked but both stopped working. I swapped the TEDs and one started working again and the other one still didn't, so I guess the TED was the problem with one and now the other has two problems.
Thanks for this video. It is an update with all special or interesting facts about the 264 commodore series. Perhaps I miss some technical facts already mentioned in the comments. Jack Tramiel throw a real computer for the masses.
I think if it would have had some sprite support it would have been a better competitor to the c64. Sometimes it is much easier to make games with proper sprite support. Although the latest homebrew games prove nice games can be made for it
I started with Aquarius (sold it in change, but found another later from flea market) and continued with Salora Manager (rebranded VTech Laser 2001. Manual threatened that satellite laser would melt the computer, if mistreated, or something like that). Never had Commodore, MSX or Sinclair, never could type any software published (basic, or sometimes hex) on Finnish computer magazine 🙄 I was one week in local electric appliance shop, where I saw C16 and tried it a bit. Graphics commands instead of poke and peek brought it in some sense on par with competition. Didn't buy it. Atari ST (trend continues: avoid mainstream popular computers) was fairly good, until moving to PC (first 286 with most likely EGA, good enough for fractal landscapes) was truly something 😅
@@TheLairdsLair in my view, Amiga had flare and color and sound, while ST was more like boring office worker 😁 But yes, way better supported than either of my previous choices. Oh, what could I have been with Spectrum or C64 background, game dev perhaps 🤔 (not likely, as I'm bad / not interested in gaming, Mario Kart and Pokemon Go being exceptions - they are fun play. I became -boring- _serious apps_ dev for desktop, web and android with some interest for Marlin FW)
I was bought a Commodore 16 for Christmas. I'd had C64 before and because this was newer, I thought it would be better (I was very young at the time). It didn't take long to be very disappointed in pretty much every aspect. The case is nice though
I remember way way way back, seeing a C16 in a Post Office and being amazed at how the thing looked, slick black and startling white keys, it screamed professional to me at the time.
The VIC-20/C16 was before my time, I just wish they had a 4_Gigahertz version of the 6502, so it could still be relevant in today's world lol It would be so fast that you could dither your way to SVGA resolutions using magic tricks with the original clumsy architecture, emulate hifi sound, use wifi and run GPT4o to write BASIC programs, which would run faster than assembly language.
Hi, i do not recall that advertisement you mention at 20:45 - i did not even recognize it initially as a Australian advert. As for the price, i purchased a C64 new in Australia in late 1983 for @ 399 as a kit with the data cassette. Why did i buy it - i used to catch a train to the city and some time in the seat infront of me was 2 "business men with suits" talking about the C64 and has the whopping amount of free memory after it booted up which almost noting else had at the time for similar money - plus all the peripherals. 8/10 people used the datacassette, yo had to be rich to have the extra hard drive - oops sorry floppy drive, but almost everyone called it a hard drive - it i remember correctly the floppy drive was very expensive and cost 60-80% of the C64 I kept it until i purchased a Amiga 500 in late 1988 for ??? 500-599
Did the Commodore 16 actually light up like that? If it did, it looked pretty damn cool, especially with the black casing. Why, oh, why did Commodore stick with that ugly brown motif for their much better gear *C64? I wasn't fond of the off-white color of the C128, either. The backwards compatibility of the C128 was a godsend as everything was for the C64. Addendum- My first computer was a C128 and once I got my Nes/Master System in 1986 I never used it again.
My brother-in-law bought a C16. He was disappointed as he thought it could run C64 games and felt let down. I know very little about this and the Plus4 which came at a time the market was going 16-bit.
Why oh why wouldnt commodore use the SID? It must have cost them cents by that point. That would have left more free silicon on the TED, possibly allowing for hardware sprites.
MSX never made it here. Which is unfortunate, in my opinion. I acquired a C16 when it was discounted. I liked the extended BASIC, and the faster CPU (I thought, it turned out to not be much faster when averaged out.) No sprites and two voice square wave sound was lackluster compared to the Commodore 64. This was before we knew the Commodore 64 will still be manufactured and sell for a decade more and become the best selling single model in history.
Color capability, Sprites & playfields was the polycount/cuda cores of its day, shame nobody was forward thinking enough to get it. Done right the machine could have beaten the upcoming consoles in terms of capability and it would have remained strong against the upcoming 16bit systems. If it had a SID2 with the stuff they left on the cutting room floor, it would have been a legendary system. But they instead designed it for an imaginary market and wanted to sell it as a PC.
Jack intended the Commodore 116 to cost $49 and replace the VIC-20 so it wasn't intended to be a video game system. Like the VIC-20 the graphics and sound were on the same chip and had no sprites, but it had a faster CPU, more RAM, higher resolution, more colours, and a better BASIC. At $49 it would have been very successful as a first computer, like the VIC-20 was.
Was it Phil , can't remember the surname, ginger and wore thick specs, that had a C16 at SJL? I remember playing a really bad version of Paperboy on it!
About the Mexico part, it was the right company but the wrong store. Aurrera had three major store chains, the simply called Aurrerá, Superama and Gran Bazar. ruclips.net/video/peRR8TjMBCQ/видео.htmlsi=LNLbqZaTF3f0ZomN The latter was the the one that sold the Commodore computers, not just the 16, but also the 64 and later Amiga. They pushed the 16 as it was perfect for the economy back then. However, it wasn’t the stores that pushed the sales of the computers, it was the distributor, Sigma. They were everywhere, with TV ads, dedicated stores and a paid TV show, part gameshow, for the state-owned commercial network, Imevisión (I don’t remember if it was daily or weekly).
No one thought Commodore was doomed when the C16 and Plus/4 came out. They just thought they were bad products and that Commodore would move on and do better things, which it did. No one knew Irving Gould would purposefully destroy it.
Jack initiated the TED computers. He was thinking the Commodore 116 would replace the VIC-20 as the inexpensive first computer at $49 and it would have been very successful at that price. The Plus/4 was supposed to be for small businesses that couldn't afford an expensive $1,000 or more business computer, thus the 4 business apps in ROM. But Jack left before they were finished and things became a mess as was evident when the computers came out very overpriced.
I had plus4 and I absolutely loved it! Underrated machine. In terms of advantages over the 64 it also had far better basic and a built in machine language monitor.
@@TheLairdsLair: I'm saying that "hence" already includes the idea of "why" as part of its definition, so you don't even have to say the "why." It's just '"hence" and then the thing that it's referring to. Plus, not only would that be avoiding the redundancy, it's easier.
I think the only redundant thing here is your endless, and rather ridiculous, comments about grammar. This is a retro gaming channel, not the Oxford Dictionary consultation group.
I guess bad payment inspired the successful engineers to apply elsewhere. Probably documentation was bad, so that not even a slow evolution was possible.
Stories I've read suggest the built-in software of the plus/4 was going to be on a much larger ROM than what they shipped. the author of the software had to cut features to fit it into the smaller ROM. Another dumb idea from Commodore!
A lot of limitations stem from the low code density of more bits. Why did commodore not add arithmetic instructions for 1-4 bytes? So many free opcodes!
I envision a backwards compatible chip which gets rid of the SRAM, and like TED stores everything in DRAM. So have 128 kB of it. Only CPU and VIC are connected to it. Ramp up the clock rate. The other components sit on the traditional bus. New modes never stop the CPU. Better scrolling. Pages for color. What kind of memory chips are in a C128? 16 chips!! So why not got 16bit? At least, memory interleave should work: twice the data rate. And still I think that fast page mode works on those chips: 4 times the data rate. VIC should load bursts of 32 bit. Like EGA.
That would have been great for the Commodore 128 instead of having two video chips with lesser capability. Jack intended the Commodore 116 to cost $49 and to replace the VIC-20 as an inexpensive first computer. That would have worked out well at $49. The Plus/4 was intended to be a business computer for small businesses that couldn't afford a $1,000 plus business computer, thus the 4 ROM apps, but they should have offered a Commodore 64 with a business bundle instead. The subsequent Commodore 128 with 80 columns and CP/M ability would have been the next step up for businesses who could afford it.
Great video and very well researched topic! Also great choice of games. My channel is focused around the Commdore 16/116 and Plus/4. I demostrate some of the latest marvels on real hardware which are unbelievable well made!
@@ArneChristianRosenfeldt I was talking about the 8551 UART chip(which the C64 had to emulate in software) which enabled a baud rate of 19200 compared to C64s 1200 or just 300 with the standard CBM modem. Sadly, it turns out that they only put it in the Plus/4 and not the C16.
The Plus/4 CPU only runs at an effective 1.76 MHz in the border and it's essentially half that (0.88 Mhz) while displaying the screen. It has the same design as the Atari computers, where the CPU and graphics DMA share the same bus and the CPU is being constantly halted while fetching graphic data, so trying to compare those 1.7x Mhz speeds to the C64 is apples to oranges.
And the "much better BASIC" of the C16 and Plus/4 are slower than C64 BASIC despite the marginally faster CPU throughput. All those extra commands and "better memory management" have a big speed cost.
Jack Tramiel was the worst thing to happen to Commodore. This computer family was a debacle and I'm glad he was fired and transferred to Atari. Otherwise I'm sure the Amiga would never never be designedand made
@TheLairdsLair let me just warn you i know what I'm talking about so how about you go and educate yourself before crossing swords with me. Wikipedia is your friend. I'll wait kiddo
So hang on, firstly you try to tell me that Jack Tramiel is the worst thing to happen to his own company that he founded. Then you try to tell me that Wikipedia is a reliable source and then you threaten me and try to belittle me by calling me a child. Wow. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
The C16 is like the Apple Lisa. It doesn’t have a FAQ. It has a list of Seldom Asked Questions.
20:08 Thanks for plugging Plus/4 World :-) I've been running it for more than 20 years now. Last month I finally opened a Pat Reon for it (link in the footer), but I guess without a large social media presence, it's not really happening. Oh well :-)
Great work, such a great website!
Csabo and Luca are the heart and soul of this site. Also the small and fine community around it is something special!
I got a C16 for my 13th birthday and immediately noticed the dearth of any kind of support here in North America. Luckily I found a dedicated mail-based users group in a magazine and joined. We started as a small bunch of BASIC 3.5 enthusiasts sharing our handiwork via tape, but quickly became disk-based "underground games traders" once we got wind of Europe's brilliant efforts with the TED line. If it wasn't for this group providing a lifeline that never emerged here in retail, my C16 would have been abandoned to the closet long before it critically failed a couple years later, to be replaced with a more dependable C64.
The improved color palette wasn't the only upgraded feature over the 64. BASIC V3.5 was more improved than the C64's BASIC V2.
BASIC 3.5 had better disk commands, program loop control, joystick control, sound and graphic commands, in addition to a built in assembly monitor - amongst other improvements.
TEDmon plus a working reset lets kids dive into assembly language before they know that it is supposed to be difficult.
Also the 1551 drive is four times as fast as the really slow 1541 (which is of course because of Commodore messing up the data handling hardware on the computer side).
In fact, while C64 was released, BASIC 4.0 was ready. But there is not enough time to adapt for C64.
In fact, while C64 was released, BASIC 4.0 was ready. But there is not enough time to adapt for C64.
@@hayrettinyildiz8018it wasnt a time issue but a rom size issue. Rom was expensive back in the early 80s.
Fantastic video.
Another thing about the Plus/4 built in software is that it required a floppy drive. It wasn't possible to use the database at all without one.
Oddly the function keys were pre-programmed with floppy drive commands (apart from HELP). Not exactly sensible on the C16. Also, SHIFT-RUN/STOP was for floppy too (from what I can remember).
I used someone's C64 that had the C16 tape deck with adaptor, which I thought was odd at the time. Years later I realised what most likely was the reason, and this video confirmed it.
Also, the new ports were way easier to damage the plugs of.
Edit: Oh yes, the BASIC was much better than on the C64, and of course the VIC-20 it was supposed to replace.
I would love to get a C16 or Plus/4 again, but for now I'll stick to emulation and the massive archive I have.
One thing no one talks about is that the (original NTSC) TED CPU and video timings are identical to the Atari 8-bit, resulting in the same pixel aspect ratio (also shared by Apple, CGA, Ti-99, CoCo, Amiga, and many others). In fact, the (original NTSC) VIC-20 and C64 are weird outliers in that they have narrower pixel aspect ratio that allows the elimination of composite chroma artifacts.
The bottom line is that the NTSC C16 suffered the same composite chroma artifacts as Atari 8-bit and other home computers of the era. However, no one noticed or cared because by the time it came out, North American home computer users bought monitors - and Commodore monitors were connected by S-Video.
Weirdly, the narrow pixel aspect ratio of the NTSC C64 would become VERY well known later on, when Capcom made a mistake designing their CPS hardware. Originally they intended it to have a square pixel aspect ratio, but they made a mistake and by the time they noticed it was too late. By pure coincidence, the narrow pixel aspect ratio matched the NTSC C64.
Probably why loads of C16 games have been ported over to the Atari 8-bit.
Interesting. You mean narrower pixels? Can a ratio be narrow? I have seen videos comparing games on C64 with Atari, and the aspect ratio really seems to be very different.
@@MaxQ10001 Yes narrow pixels. Due to the way NTSC color works, most 8-bit systems used a pixel aspect ratio of 7:8 (this is also the pixel aspect ratio of DVDs). These pixels are a bit narrow, but still pretty close to square. The NTSC C64 pixels are significantly narrower, with a 7:9 ratio. You can most easily see this by looking at the classic C64 boot screen, because the characters are 8x8 pixels in size. The narrow pixels gives each text character a somewhat pleasant "tall" appearance rather than the more fat and square appearance of most others.
There are technical reasons why this pixel aspect ratio made sense for the C64, but anyway the bottom line is that 40 characters took up a much smaller fraction of a scanline and this left a lot of cycles left over for the C64's famously large sprites (8 sprites of 24 pixel width on a scanline).
As for the Capcom CPS board ... uhhh ... there's no technical reason for its pixels to be the same size as the C64. It was just a mistake and a coincidence. Oops! But regardless, it would define the look of classic Capcom games like Streetfighter II.
Who cares about more colors, when you have worse animation and far worse sound? I didn't switch from C64 to Atari ST just because of sound, I went to Amiga500
@@CaptainDangeax I'm not sure precisely what your meaning is, but the C16 was intended to be a replacement for the VIC-20, not the C64. And it's better than the VIC-20 all around, in terms of hardware capabilities.
However, by the time the C16 and Plus/4 came out, Jack's price war against Texas Instruments brought the C64's price down enough to destroy the VIC-20 and all of its competition. We'll never know what might have happened if Jack didn't have his vindictive vendetta against TI.
My first computer was the Plus/4 which I got for Christmas 1985. My parents got it from Debenhams in Cardiff. I was slightly gutted as my neighbour across the road had a C64
Commodore Plus/4 was my very first computer. It was both blessing and a curse: lack or poor games kinda forced me into explorations: programming in Basic (pretty decent version 4.0) and then Machine Language (yes, there was a built-in Machine Language Monitor). After all these years (oh-time-flies-so-fast) I think everything I'm today as the IT engineer started at that time, with this tiny machine. Nostalgic...
I forgot about icicle works, brings back fond memories. I was given a plus 4 for Christmas as they were half the price of the c64. Naturally I wanted the c64 as my friend had them
Just imagine if the 64 had had that colour palette...
That would have been something.
It wouldn't make much difference. You wouldn't be able to use them all in a meaningful way. It didn't help the Atari 8 bits.
And the 1.76 MHz processor🎉
Atari had it in the 70s . How much transistors do we need to store the palette? I never understand why the 6502 did not get more registers in the 6510.
How do sprites work with color? I feel like they would need an 1 bit alpha channel. Then resolve priority. Then ask the winning sprite or background to put the index on a bus. If this is 1, use spriteId . Then look up color. This is kinda obvious in the two PPUs in the pcEngine. So total number of colors adds not cost to sprites.
C64 VIC-2 has 12 data bits and runs at 2 MHz vs 8bit TED and 1.8 MHz . Only difference is that in bitmap multicolor mode VIC-2 has 3 color attributes vs 2 on Ted.
And that BASIC and the programmable macro (function) keys and the easy (if rudimentary) text windowing and the 60K of free RAM (on the plus/4) and a faster CPU and disk drive… sigh.
So much nostalgia, and unearthed memories.
My Commodore 16 ran hot and cooked itself. If you have one, I'd suggest using a desk fan to keep it cool.
One of the fun things: The BASIC / OS in the Commodore 16 is identical to what the Plus/4 had.
with less parts inside the PCB and a slower clock, I wonder why.
Great overview of these models. I was still centered on the C64 when these computers came out so I learned a lot about them. Well worth the anticipation for this video after seeing the close poll results.
I had a commodore 16+4 the 10 games that came with it were very good and original
Ted was a response to the sinclair spectrum 16k. The vic2 yields were not good enough at the time, it ran too hot because of the sprites. So it made sense to start a cheaper product ans then it made sense to try out various products based around the chip
The 16k spectrum turned out to not be a ttheat once 48k software came out and vic2 yields improved. Jack had left and nobody knew how to run commodore
The 116, 264 and then 364 came first. The 232 and c16 came later. The 232 didnt make sense due to the cost of ram, so it never made it out
The 264 was going to be sold in various bundles, the +4 bundle was the only one that survived. There was a trademark issue with the name they were going to use.
Regarding the colour palette and its reduction in the C64, I recently undertook a (somewhat pointless) study into how Amstrad could have increased the palette of the CPC range from 27 to 216 and then 729 colours (even if only 16 could be an sccreen at once without timing trickery) simply by doubling up the RGB pins.
It might be worth your while discussing how the old computers generated colour and mapped it to screen. The Spectrum and C16/64 used means of manipulating the luminance-chrominance signals, whereas the BBC and Amstrad generated RGB (the BBC just digitally and the Amstrad used hi-Z states on GPIO for greater numbers of levels, which I manipulated in my gedankenexperiment).
Older chips only has one pin. VIC-2 had separate pins for luma and chromance. So these don’t fight for bandwidth as much. The chromance signal is modulated by multiplying with sine and cosine. Multiplication gets real chip for low bits. So for 256 colors, invest 4 bits for luma. Then you get away with 2 bit multiplications. Both and signed ints do not really change this.
On RGB systems adding more colours is trivial since you simply need a few more resistors in the resistor ladder used to convert a digital R, G or B level to analogue.
The problem is, if you have more colours, you need more memory for the screen buffer. At 3 bits per pixel (8 colours), a 320x200 screen needs a 24K frame buffer. That's already a substantial amount of memory both in financial cost and in space on a system with only 64K of address space. Bump that up to 256 colours (3/3/2 bits per pixel for R/G/B) and now you're up to 64K just for the screen buffer.
Non-RGB systems that generate NTSC or similar colours directly work quite differently, but in the end you still have the same problem: more colours means more memory.
While the C16 was actually absolete and only causes confusion among retailors and consumers.
And so i was actually about to say that the C16 shouldn’t exist since many corners were cut.
But since an upgraded 64K C16 could handle AMEZING looking homebrew games,
I do see lots of potential in that system nontheless😁
Jack intended the Commodore 116 to cost only $49 and it would have been very successful at that price. He intended it to be a replacement for the VIC-20 which also had graphics and sound on one chip and no sprites., but beat the VIC-20 in CPU speed, RAM, resolution, colour palette and BASIC.
Jack intended the Plus/4 to be for small businesses that couldn't afford a real business computer at $1,000 or more. They should have not released the Plus/4 and instead offered a Commodore 64 with a bundle of business apps.
I have incredible love for this system.
My first computer was the VIC-20 and I have a lot of nostalgia for it so I can easily see how someone who had a Commodore 16 or Plus/4 would have a lot of nostalgia for it. The Commodore 16 was essentially an enhanced VIC-20 as it had graphics and sound on one chip and no sprites, but had a faster CPU, more RAM, higher resolution, more colours, and a better BASIC. If only it had come out when the VIC-20 was discontinued and was sold for $49 as Jack intended, then it would have been very successful.
Nice to hear :)
My mum bought us a C16 back in the mid 80's here in Australia. My very first game was Jack Attack and I was around 8 at the time. I can't remember what happened exactly, but we only had the computer for a few weeks before we took it back to the store and upgraded to the C64 instead. I'd glad we did!
Monty on the run !!!!
Oh the hours wasted playing that, nice, warm and fuzzy memories
I'm going to have to change my ringtone because every time you introduce a new fact I think I'm getting a call!
I had a C64 as a kid, and I remember wanting to find a dead C16 so I could put my C64's innards into that cool looking black case. Unfortunately, it never happened.
Happy memories (:
Loved Monkey Magic(:
Some can wonder why Commodore was going backwards by 1984 instead of find ways to make a cheaper version of the C64, and keeping the C64 as their base standard for 8-bit computers until the Amiga came out.
Another great video and overview. Have you got a C16/Plus4 among your goodies?
Yes, I have a Plus/4 somewhere that I want to look at on the channel but I can't get to most of my stuff at the moment and tried to look for it twice without success (I have too much stuff!). I did find my Amiga 500 the other day though, so I am sure it will turn up eventually.
The problem the Japanese presented was they got you the same product for half the price. There wasn't really a risk with home computers because they were just selling low-end machines. Plus the price of the commodore 64 was rapidly going down as the price of stuff like memory went down
When i was a teenager mid 8ties, really did not get all those side releases after the C64. Including the 128 and 128D although i owned the latter. Learned from previous mistakes Commodore thought it was an even greater plan to do it once again with the later released Amiga computers.
My mate had a Plus 4 and I remember I told him I knew how to create the floating blue ball from the film Explorers. Of course this was a lie but when I couldn't, I told him it worked on my Spectrum so it must be a Commodore problem. Spent the day playing one of the racing games shown in the video instead.
My first computer was a C16 while unfortunately I do not still have that computers I do have a +4, I miss those days says the guys sat in front of 6 HD monitors running from a single computer.
that jingle 😄
good video btw
I was playing with c16 computer, the games were amazing at those times. Many children loved the computer, the games were copied from others, that is why people bought it. I Europe the Commodore ruled the market, the PC was for the industry, and the Sega, Nintendo was for western countries.
I have a C16 as well as a Plus4 in the collection. Can;t say I've done an awful lot with them though. One of these days. Cool to see that there's an active home brew community.
I found two Plus/4s at two different yard sales and they both worked but both stopped working. I swapped the TEDs and one started working again and the other one still didn't, so I guess the TED was the problem with one and now the other has two problems.
Thanks for this video. It is an update with all special or interesting facts about the 264 commodore series. Perhaps I miss some technical facts already mentioned in the comments. Jack Tramiel throw a real computer for the masses.
I think if it would have had some sprite support it would have been a better competitor to the c64. Sometimes it is much easier to make games with proper sprite support. Although the latest homebrew games prove nice games can be made for it
I started with Aquarius (sold it in change, but found another later from flea market) and continued with Salora Manager (rebranded VTech Laser 2001. Manual threatened that satellite laser would melt the computer, if mistreated, or something like that).
Never had Commodore, MSX or Sinclair, never could type any software published (basic, or sometimes hex) on Finnish computer magazine 🙄
I was one week in local electric appliance shop, where I saw C16 and tried it a bit. Graphics commands instead of poke and peek brought it in some sense on par with competition. Didn't buy it.
Atari ST (trend continues: avoid mainstream popular computers) was fairly good, until moving to PC (first 286 with most likely EGA, good enough for fractal landscapes) was truly something 😅
I'd definitely say the Atari ST is mainstream, it was really well supported and sold in the millions, led the Amiga for many years.
@@TheLairdsLair in my view, Amiga had flare and color and sound, while ST was more like boring office worker 😁 But yes, way better supported than either of my previous choices.
Oh, what could I have been with Spectrum or C64 background, game dev perhaps 🤔 (not likely, as I'm bad / not interested in gaming, Mario Kart and Pokemon Go being exceptions - they are fun play. I became -boring- _serious apps_ dev for desktop, web and android with some interest for Marlin FW)
I was bought a Commodore 16 for Christmas. I'd had C64 before and because this was newer, I thought it would be better (I was very young at the time). It didn't take long to be very disappointed in pretty much every aspect. The case is nice though
Oh dear, that must have been crushing!
I had a commodore 16+4 back in the day I got from Debenhams
Great video! I really loved these games back then
I love Xzap on the c16… I still play that today on my ps4!!!
Kick-start was a favourite.
I remember way way way back, seeing a C16 in a Post Office and being amazed at how the thing looked, slick black and startling white keys, it screamed professional to me at the time.
This was an excellent video.
My first comp. Still use it today. It's had a Ram upgrade to allow it to play Plus 4 software. Game wise C16 has some right little gems 💯
Why would the 16 have been a replacement for the 20 when the 64 had already been out and doing that job quite nicely by then?
Keeping it under $100 I think he said.
Memory was pretty darn expensive back then.
I use to think the 16 meant it had 16-bit power in it.
😂😂😂😂
The VIC-20/C16 was before my time, I just wish they had a 4_Gigahertz version of the 6502, so it could still be relevant in today's world lol
It would be so fast that you could dither your way to SVGA resolutions using magic tricks with the original clumsy architecture, emulate hifi sound, use wifi and run GPT4o to write BASIC programs, which would run faster than assembly language.
Bill Held, the designer of the TED chip and the lead on the C128, is a Facbbook friendm.
I completed that Auto Zone game
Whats the game shown before the Australian advert with "save the stupid princess" at the bottom? Looks impressive
Dork Dave
Hi, i do not recall that advertisement you mention at 20:45 - i did not even recognize it initially as a Australian advert. As for the price, i purchased a C64 new in Australia in late 1983 for @ 399 as a kit with the data cassette.
Why did i buy it - i used to catch a train to the city and some time in the seat infront of me was 2 "business men with suits" talking about the C64 and has the whopping amount of free memory after it booted up which almost noting else had at the time for similar money - plus all the peripherals.
8/10 people used the datacassette, yo had to be rich to have the extra hard drive - oops sorry floppy drive, but almost everyone called it a hard drive - it i remember correctly the floppy drive was very expensive and cost 60-80% of the C64
I kept it until i purchased a Amiga 500 in late 1988 for ??? 500-599
I hade also a c-16 and had a lot of fun with it
Did the Commodore 16 actually light up like that? If it did, it looked pretty damn cool, especially with the black casing. Why, oh, why did Commodore stick with that ugly brown motif for their much better gear *C64? I wasn't fond of the off-white color of the C128, either. The backwards compatibility of the C128 was a godsend as everything was for the C64.
Addendum- My first computer was a C128 and once I got my Nes/Master System in 1986 I never used it again.
My brother-in-law bought a C16. He was disappointed as he thought it could run C64 games and felt let down. I know very little about this and the Plus4 which came at a time the market was going 16-bit.
My first computer was the Commodore 116
Why oh why wouldnt commodore use the SID? It must have cost them cents by that point. That would have left more free silicon on the TED, possibly allowing for hardware sprites.
MSX never made it here. Which is unfortunate, in my opinion. I acquired a C16 when it was discounted. I liked the extended BASIC, and the faster CPU (I thought, it turned out to not be much faster when averaged out.) No sprites and two voice square wave sound was lackluster compared to the Commodore 64. This was before we knew the Commodore 64 will still be manufactured and sell for a decade more and become the best selling single model in history.
There technically was one American MSX model, but it was part of a larger setup meant for the production of MIDI tracks.
Color capability, Sprites & playfields was the polycount/cuda cores of its day, shame nobody was forward thinking enough to get it.
Done right the machine could have beaten the upcoming consoles in terms of capability and it would have remained strong against the upcoming 16bit systems. If it had a SID2 with the stuff they left on the cutting room floor, it would have been a legendary system.
But they instead designed it for an imaginary market and wanted to sell it as a PC.
Jack intended the Commodore 116 to cost $49 and replace the VIC-20 so it wasn't intended to be a video game system. Like the VIC-20 the graphics and sound were on the same chip and had no sprites, but it had a faster CPU, more RAM, higher resolution, more colours, and a better BASIC. At $49 it would have been very successful as a first computer, like the VIC-20 was.
Was it Phil , can't remember the surname, ginger and wore thick specs, that had a C16 at SJL? I remember playing a really bad version of Paperboy on it!
Yes, used to sit with us in science
10:50 - Hungarian game and text :)
About the Mexico part, it was the right company but the wrong store. Aurrera had three major store chains, the simply called Aurrerá, Superama and Gran Bazar. ruclips.net/video/peRR8TjMBCQ/видео.htmlsi=LNLbqZaTF3f0ZomN
The latter was the the one that sold the Commodore computers, not just the 16, but also the 64 and later Amiga. They pushed the 16 as it was perfect for the economy back then.
However, it wasn’t the stores that pushed the sales of the computers, it was the distributor, Sigma. They were everywhere, with TV ads, dedicated stores and a paid TV show, part gameshow, for the state-owned commercial network, Imevisión (I don’t remember if it was daily or weekly).
At this time all other computers were taking a leap forward. Commodore took 10 leaps back. We all realized commodore was doomed at that point in time
Yeah, how was the same fab able to produce the chips for the Amiga1000?
No one thought Commodore was doomed when the C16 and Plus/4 came out. They just thought they were bad products and that Commodore would move on and do better things, which it did. No one knew Irving Gould would purposefully destroy it.
Where you found Hungaroring game? I had it in my childhood but now i cannot download to try
Right here: plus4world.powweb.com/software/Hungaroring
HS, the jingle 😂😂😂
What's the "Welcome" quote at the beginning of each vid?
Welcome STUN Runner
@@TheLairdsLair It's always bugged me! LOVE your channel!!
@@TheLairdsLair And now I want a Lynx!
What were they thinking…
Indeed!
Jack initiated the TED computers. He was thinking the Commodore 116 would replace the VIC-20 as the inexpensive first computer at $49 and it would have been very successful at that price. The Plus/4 was supposed to be for small businesses that couldn't afford an expensive $1,000 or more business computer, thus the 4 business apps in ROM.
But Jack left before they were finished and things became a mess as was evident when the computers came out very overpriced.
I thought the Commodore 16 had faster CPU, than a Commodore 64.
Atari did the Commodore years before with Atari 800.
I wish I'd never sold mine
I had plus4 and I absolutely loved it! Underrated machine. In terms of advantages over the 64 it also had far better basic and a built in machine language monitor.
More bloated, slower BASIC.
15:06: "Already... already"? Heh, oops. And "...the 116, the [16], and the Plus/4..."
* Shows a 16 and two Plus/4s instead.
Some of the arcade ports on the C16 are laughable - see Ghosts & Goblins, Commando and Green Beret in particular.
the hires graphics gobbles up 10k of ram when active so you get even less left!
The "why" is already built into "hence," hence "hence" just being used as "hence..." instead of "hence why..."
What on earth are you going on about?
@@TheLairdsLair: I'm saying that "hence" already includes the idea of "why" as part of its definition, so you don't even have to say the "why." It's just '"hence" and then the thing that it's referring to. Plus, not only would that be avoiding the redundancy, it's easier.
I think the only redundant thing here is your endless, and rather ridiculous, comments about grammar. This is a retro gaming channel, not the Oxford Dictionary consultation group.
Hence why you're a total bell end
Hence why you need to get a life
It has a better basic than the c64.
I never understood why they made a new model that was simultaneously much worse and much better lol.
I guess bad payment inspired the successful engineers to apply elsewhere. Probably documentation was bad, so that not even a slow evolution was possible.
Stories I've read suggest the built-in software of the plus/4 was going to be on a much larger ROM than what they shipped. the author of the software had to cut features to fit it into the smaller ROM. Another dumb idea from Commodore!
A lot of limitations stem from the low code density of more bits. Why did commodore not add arithmetic instructions for 1-4 bytes? So many free opcodes!
I wish they had of put energy into a VIC-III chip instead
I envision a backwards compatible chip which gets rid of the SRAM, and like TED stores everything in DRAM. So have 128 kB of it. Only CPU and VIC are connected to it. Ramp up the clock rate. The other components sit on the traditional bus.
New modes never stop the CPU. Better scrolling. Pages for color.
What kind of memory chips are in a C128? 16 chips!! So why not got 16bit? At least, memory interleave should work: twice the data rate. And still I think that fast page mode works on those chips: 4 times the data rate. VIC should load bursts of 32 bit. Like EGA.
That would have been great for the Commodore 128 instead of having two video chips with lesser capability.
Jack intended the Commodore 116 to cost $49 and to replace the VIC-20 as an inexpensive first computer. That would have worked out well at $49.
The Plus/4 was intended to be a business computer for small businesses that couldn't afford a $1,000 plus business computer, thus the 4 ROM apps, but they should have offered a Commodore 64 with a business bundle instead. The subsequent Commodore 128 with 80 columns and CP/M ability would have been the next step up for businesses who could afford it.
2:33 what was that 😮
"...1/10th of your brain"? Apparently they were only using 1/10 of their brains because "1/10th" doesn't make sense! It's saying "one tenthTH," oops!
I upgraded my C16 to 64k. 🤣
Great video and very well researched topic! Also great choice of games. My channel is focused around the Commdore 16/116 and Plus/4. I demostrate some of the latest marvels on real hardware which are unbelievable well made!
Versus C64 facts. 1.76Mhz processor compared to
The C64 also has line interrupts. So your last point is just better BASIC .
@@ArneChristianRosenfeldt I was talking about the 8551 UART chip(which the C64 had to emulate in software) which enabled a baud rate of 19200 compared to C64s 1200 or just 300 with the standard CBM modem. Sadly, it turns out that they only put it in the Plus/4 and not the C16.
The Plus/4 CPU only runs at an effective 1.76 MHz in the border and it's essentially half that (0.88 Mhz) while displaying the screen. It has the same design as the Atari computers, where the CPU and graphics DMA share the same bus and the CPU is being constantly halted while fetching graphic data, so trying to compare those 1.7x Mhz speeds to the C64 is apples to oranges.
And the "much better BASIC" of the C16 and Plus/4 are slower than C64 BASIC despite the marginally faster CPU throughput. All those extra commands and "better memory management" have a big speed cost.
Jack Tramiel was the worst thing to happen to Commodore. This computer family was a debacle and I'm glad he was fired and transferred to Atari. Otherwise I'm sure the Amiga would never never be designedand made
LOL, it was his company, he founded it, so how can he be the worst thing to happen to his own company? That makes zero sense.
@TheLairdsLair let me just warn you i know what I'm talking about so how about you go and educate yourself before crossing swords with me. Wikipedia is your friend. I'll wait kiddo
So hang on, firstly you try to tell me that Jack Tramiel is the worst thing to happen to his own company that he founded. Then you try to tell me that Wikipedia is a reliable source and then you threaten me and try to belittle me by calling me a child. Wow. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
(Going back a little:) There's no such thing as a "CES show." Guess why.
What a hunk of junk
Never knew there was a 'Commodore 16'🫤, I was a an ATARI 800 guy myself.