I appreciate the comprehensive and clear teaching by Jeff regarding this question. I encourage all to listen to Jeff’s clear pointing to Scripture to inform the answers to the posed question to this topic. Thank you Jeff!
In the 1990's I was asked by the pastor of a Baptist Church to lead the songs that were found in the pew hymnals. The only thing I said was the page # for the congregation. I was up on the platform by myself. The pastor sang well. Even though I was not exhorting or teaching the congregation I asked him if he would join me on the platform so that it would not look like the "appearance of evil" in that I was the leader of the church. He refused. He also allowed a woman to lead a adult co-ed Sunday school class. I left shortly after that. Also the last question about women songwriters was on my mind even BEFORE you addressed it. I sighed relief because I'm one. What a great message. Thanks be to God.
Thank you for this podcast 🙏I really appreciate the sensitivity with wich you have approached this topic. And thank you for encouraging us to develope the gift for writing congregational songs. I really love the church of God and I have this desire in my heart. I pray that the Lord will help me in this task, if it is in his will. Soli Deo Gloria 🙌
In the Bible four women, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, and Mary, are talked about writing and singing songs. Therefore, females writing songs of worship is Biblically sound.
Interesting discussion. But I feel it moves too glibly between what 'authority' means in NT terms and what modern usage of 'leadership' entails. Authority, both in home life and church, should be used rarely and very carefully. Also too keen on 'roles' rather than the underlying differences seen in Gen 2 etc. I'm assuming the narrow approach outlined would also prohibit women from reading scripture aloud in gatherings, or 'leading' praying, or even in giving notices which can be very directional.
Thanks for the comment, Andy. Good point about the difference between leadership, which at time can be more administrative, and authority, which is rooted in God's Word. Our aim here was to specifically address leading in song, but we often have women read the Scriptures in the gathering and wouldn't see an issue with participating in prayer or giving announcements. But each church is responsible to work out those details in way that corresponds with what they believe Scripture teaches about the complementary roles of men and women.
My understanding of the proper context of 1 Timothy 2 is that Paul was giving advice in a personal letter to Timothy about a specific issue in the church at Ephesus, not speaking about the Church in general. (He warns in the first chapter against false teaching that had been occurring.) Paul's teachings throughout the rest of the NT seem to indicate he was supportive of women in leadership roles within the Church. Also, the word Paul used - authentein - was an unusual choice, only being used once in the New Testament: in this verse. It has been defined as misuse of or abusive authority or dominance. Paul also said in verse 15 that women are saved in childbearing. If verse 12 is to be taken out of context and applied to all women regarding leadership roles within the Church universal, then why isn't verse 15 taught as doctrine as well?
our woman worship leader who plays and sings is under our pastor's leadership and none of us as a body of believers questions that, that is clear to the congregation. she does briefly pray or quote Scripture at times in between songs, says edifying words that we all appreciate, but -- the focus is the songs that she prays over to choose carefully for their Christ centered messages, whether hymns, or very select contemporary pieces. in fact we play and sing several of sovereign grace music songs. she has listened to podcasts from your ministry and glad for your Bible focus. she is discerning and discriminating to make sure that the focus remains on Jesus and our pastor approves and, of course, gives his input. she does this humbly, has a servant's heart, a godly example. also she teaches women in Bible study but not the men. the glory is the Lord's in it all. we pray to be correct about this topic. i have listened with interest what was said and thank you for the guidance offered. i recently read about heman who was chosen by king david (along with asaph and jeduthun) to lead worship and it talks about heman's 14 sons -- and 3 daughters -- under his authority. his daughters names are not mentioned but they are clearly singled out in Scripture as having a place and part in worship. the only women mentioned in that setting. i believe God made a point to not exclude them. He wanted them shown in that place of service or they would not have been heard of. i also read that king solomon had men and women singers so it sounds to me as though this was highly selective when women did have the occasion of service in a worship capacity as they were answerable to those men over them and answerable to the king who appointed them. there is a lesson in this instance too for us to know what God has revealed in His Word :)
How in the world is LEADING the song teaching but not writing it? Writing has much more to do with a depth of knowledge of scripture and doctrine and an ability to explain such things clearly (and artistically) - something which Bob Kauflin is familiar with as a songwriter himself. Ultimately such teaching is under the purview of the pastor, of course, since he has authority over what is said and sung for the church. However, you cannot possibly say that women should not be singing and leading a song (that often was written by a man) but a man should lead the song written by a woman. If she should not be leading, she should not be writing as well. (And thus we’d have to start striking many an old hymn from the hymnals…)
I like the thoughtfulness to consider this question. From the video, it seems that they are concerned with the public application and teaching of truth. The Bible doesn’t prohibit women from confessing or expressing that truth. As mentioned earlier in the comments, women of the Bible confessed truth and expressed praise in song as the Spirit led them. Even pagan Nebuchadnezzar was permitted to express truth about God. So I think the issue is much more about the application of leadership through teaching and authority than it is with confessing biblical truth. I invite someone to check my thinking for error as they are only my initial and unrefined thoughts. Thanks for the helpful discourse in the comments 👍
thanks for the reply, our folks love SG and all you do for the kingdom, we also love to sing the SG music; the lyrics that are truly God glorifying with solid Biblical foundation, unlike many of the so called Christian songs of today, we praise God for you
I don't think that's necessary if the conversation is just based on what the Word of God says. This isn't an opinion based conversation :) And it's good to have men being the ones "expositing" the Word in this case.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Maybe even a Sovereign Grace woman who is a lead vocalist! Or maybe a woman who writes worship music, such as maybe Kristyn Getty. Women who write songs seem to be a greater influence as a spiritual leader than one who merely sings the written words.
How do people view it as “women can’t be the lead pastor”? The Bible says leading the church, right? The church is people of God, so how do they get there?
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I appreciate the comprehensive and clear teaching by Jeff regarding this question. I encourage all to listen to Jeff’s clear pointing to Scripture to inform the answers to the posed question to this topic. Thank you Jeff!
In the 1990's I was asked by the pastor of a Baptist Church to lead the songs that were found in the pew hymnals. The only thing I said was the page # for the congregation. I was up on the platform by myself. The pastor sang well. Even though I was not exhorting or teaching the congregation I asked him if he would join me on the platform so that it would not look like the "appearance of evil" in that I was the leader of the church. He refused. He also allowed a woman to lead a adult co-ed Sunday school class. I left shortly after that.
Also the last question about women songwriters was on my mind even BEFORE you addressed it. I sighed relief because I'm one. What a great message. Thanks be to God.
Thank you for this podcast 🙏I really appreciate the sensitivity with wich you have approached this topic.
And thank you for encouraging us to develope the gift for writing congregational songs. I really love the church of God and I have this desire in my heart. I pray that the Lord will help me in this task, if it is in his will. Soli Deo Gloria 🙌
Not just the US culture Bob, definitely the UK too! Ty everyone for your careful and biblically faithful answers.
In the Bible four women, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, and Mary, are talked about writing and singing songs. Therefore, females writing songs of worship is Biblically sound.
Thank you. Really appreciate this.
Me gustaría que el video tenga subtitulos en español🙏
This is good! I’ve always felt this way but didn’t know how to articulate it biblically
I appreciate Jeff’s answer. It would be great if he could give a concise answer and then expound. I don’t think that’s possible for him though.
Interesting discussion. But I feel it moves too glibly between what 'authority' means in NT terms and what modern usage of 'leadership' entails. Authority, both in home life and church, should be used rarely and very carefully. Also too keen on 'roles' rather than the underlying differences seen in Gen 2 etc. I'm assuming the narrow approach outlined would also prohibit women from reading scripture aloud in gatherings, or 'leading' praying, or even in giving notices which can be very directional.
Thanks for the comment, Andy. Good point about the difference between leadership, which at time can be more administrative, and authority, which is rooted in God's Word. Our aim here was to specifically address leading in song, but we often have women read the Scriptures in the gathering and wouldn't see an issue with participating in prayer or giving announcements. But each church is responsible to work out those details in way that corresponds with what they believe Scripture teaches about the complementary roles of men and women.
@@bkauflin Thanks for replying
My understanding of the proper context of 1 Timothy 2 is that Paul was giving advice in a personal letter to Timothy about a specific issue in the church at Ephesus, not speaking about the Church in general. (He warns in the first chapter against false teaching that had been occurring.) Paul's teachings throughout the rest of the NT seem to indicate he was supportive of women in leadership roles within the Church.
Also, the word Paul used - authentein - was an unusual choice, only being used once in the New Testament: in this verse. It has been defined as misuse of or abusive authority or dominance.
Paul also said in verse 15 that women are saved in childbearing. If verse 12 is to be taken out of context and applied to all women regarding leadership roles within the Church universal, then why isn't verse 15 taught as doctrine as well?
our woman worship leader who plays and sings is under our pastor's leadership and none of us as a body of believers questions that, that is clear to the congregation. she does briefly pray or quote Scripture at times in between songs, says edifying words that we all appreciate, but -- the focus is the songs that she prays over to choose carefully for their Christ centered messages, whether hymns, or very select contemporary pieces. in fact we play and sing several of sovereign grace music songs. she has listened to podcasts from your ministry and glad for your Bible focus. she is discerning and discriminating to make sure that the focus remains on Jesus and our pastor approves and, of course, gives his input. she does this humbly, has a servant's heart, a godly example. also she teaches women in Bible study but not the men. the glory is the Lord's in it all. we pray to be correct about this topic. i have listened with interest what was said and thank you for the guidance offered.
i recently read about heman who was chosen by king david (along with asaph and jeduthun) to lead worship and it talks about heman's 14 sons -- and 3 daughters -- under his authority. his daughters names are not mentioned but they are clearly singled out in Scripture as having a place and part in worship. the only women mentioned in that setting. i believe God made a point to not exclude them. He wanted them shown in that place of service or they would not have been heard of. i also read that king solomon had men and women singers so it sounds to me as though this was highly selective when women did have the occasion of service in a worship capacity as they were answerable to those men over them and answerable to the king who appointed them. there is a lesson in this instance too for us to know what God has revealed in His Word :)
How in the world is LEADING the song teaching but not writing it? Writing has much more to do with a depth of knowledge of scripture and doctrine and an ability to explain such things clearly (and artistically) - something which Bob Kauflin is familiar with as a songwriter himself. Ultimately such teaching is under the purview of the pastor, of course, since he has authority over what is said and sung for the church. However, you cannot possibly say that women should not be singing and leading a song (that often was written by a man) but a man should lead the song written by a woman. If she should not be leading, she should not be writing as well. (And thus we’d have to start striking many an old hymn from the hymnals…)
I like the thoughtfulness to consider this question. From the video, it seems that they are concerned with the public application and teaching of truth. The Bible doesn’t prohibit women from confessing or expressing that truth. As mentioned earlier in the comments, women of the Bible confessed truth and expressed praise in song as the Spirit led them. Even pagan Nebuchadnezzar was permitted to express truth about God. So I think the issue is much more about the application of leadership through teaching and authority than it is with confessing biblical truth.
I invite someone to check my thinking for error as they are only my initial and unrefined thoughts. Thanks for the helpful discourse in the comments 👍
when the music team meets and prays before a gathering are the ladies free to lead out in prayer?
Absolutely, and encouraged to. In the meeting as well, if there is congregational prayer happening.
thanks for the reply, our folks love SG and all you do for the kingdom, we also love to sing the SG music; the lyrics that are truly God glorifying with solid Biblical foundation, unlike many of the so called Christian songs of today, we praise God for you
It's a no brainer..you have Miriam leading in Exodus..if a women is gifted let her use her gift
.
Read it carefully, she led women
Have the Pastor sing, but turn his mic off…. Really? That is the solution if you have no men who are capable of leading song worship?
A suggestion it will be a good idea to have a woman as part of your discussion.
I don't think that's necessary if the conversation is just based on what the Word of God says. This isn't an opinion based conversation :) And it's good to have men being the ones "expositing" the Word in this case.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Not necessary.
Maybe even a Sovereign Grace woman who is a lead vocalist! Or maybe a woman who writes worship music, such as maybe Kristyn Getty. Women who write songs seem to be a greater influence as a spiritual leader than one who merely sings the written words.
How do people view it as “women can’t be the lead pastor”?
The Bible says leading the church, right?
The church is people of God, so how do they get there?