Hey EDHRECast, I've been an avid watcher for a long time and wanted to say you guys have been doing amazing work for commander and to keep up the good work!
Guys, sorry for the really tough name but soooooo glad I have been mentionned online :D Atroxentis is the name of my band and comes from a dad joke in Latin. Love ya guys ! (Olivier)
I think the drillworks mole is being paired with Agatha's soul cauldron. By having a +1/+1 on Agatha and the mole exiled to the cauldron, the player can now pay 1 and tap agatha to give her 2 +1/+1 counters. Edit: It starts to make more sense when you see the amount of Invokers on her page as well
Yeah, I think it's less the Mole's ability being the draw on its own with her reduction, but the use of it for easy growth of her power to get the old draft wincon creatures' abilities online for cheap.
Thank you for this tech! I just built her and have been relying on Forgotten Ancient or Halena and Alena (I think that's their name) for counters as well as just randomly exiling creatures with cauldron. I did win the first game I played... Svella is definitely an all-star in the 99.
Plus it can give that ability to any creature with a 1/1 counter on it. Spare mana at the end of the end step before your turn? Pump Agatha up by a lot and make all your creatures bigger. Do you have All Will Be One on the field? Start burning things out.
Exactly plus even discounting the cauldron synergy being able to drop it on turn 1 Agatha turn 2 and just racking up her power is completely reasonable on its own
I think the goal of Drillworks Mole isnt necessarily that Agatha reduces its activation cost. Thats more of a side effect. Its that it importantly puts counters on Agatha, which powers up her cost reduction. I dont think that necessarily means its a great card in the deck, but I think you need to evaluate it on the basis of it pumping Agatha for cheap rather than on how much Agatha enables the mole.
Boardwipes and Control are part of the game as well, at every stage. You can't just expect for people to sit there and just lose without doing anything. Otherwise is just a race between four games of solitaire.
I have one deck in particular built to make the game go a certain way, a zombie deck with Nevinyrral that is designed to have as many ways as possible to create an arbitrary number of zombies. When it works it creates a true zombie apocalypse movie, a slow start as everyone underestimates the horde while tangling with each other, the moment someone’s mistake leads to an endless army of the dead besieging the walls, and then either a moment of heroic co-operation as former enemies work together to conquer the scourge or of selfish despair as they protect themselves first and let the horde take the others. I even took out all of the aristo win cons specifically because the full turn cycle where three other players are trying to figure out how the hell to survive is so fun, and is more fun for the other players. Nevinyrral’s Zombie Apocalypse is one of the most fun decks I play.
I play nevinyrral too, and it’s called the nevinyrral disco, when he keeps bouncing in and out of the battlefield and blowing everything up, and it does become the theme of the game every time 😂
"I edit the show THAT IS NOT GONNA FLY" and this is why ladies and gentleman and everything in between, Joey is and will always be the only Challenge the Stats rightful heir.
I love these three men. They have such a cool and diverse take and they are giant dorks ❤️. Special shoutout to Dana. You mentioned a Vhal + Haunted one deck a while back, and I went searching for it. Thankfully it was up on your Archidekt. I had almost got this deck to work but couldn't figure it out. Your list was great to get my head around the pieces I needed!
I'm not playing Joey's list (I play a heavier lands strat), but he DID get me into the deck by talking about how fun it is. Can confirm, it's suuuper fun
If I didn't already have 3 Golgari decks I would build her. I was between Baba Lysaga and Yargle and Multani, and I already wanted to build a deck where all I did was repeatedly sac my commander, so Yargle and Multani won that choice..
Challenge the stats option is cadaverous bloom in Korvold, Fae-Cursed King Decks. It's in only 15 decks and I think it should be in way more. It allows the player to keep the chain going of casting spells by exiling all the lands they draw with Korvod.
Love the point about Reclaimation Sage- I play a landfall deck where I often pump my attackers after blocks... I often have to make it crystal clear that I'm hitting for 15 F O R N O W- COULD BE MORE LATER :)
I think the mole is there to boost Agatha. I don’t think the players care about the Mole’s activated ability, but it would seem the player would want a sure fire way to boost Agatha’s power in order to reduce the cost of OTHER activated abilities.
Thinking the same thing. Pay 1 colorless to activate the mole, Agatha gets a +1/+1, now every other ability you activate going forward costs 1 less. If you sol ring and mole turn 1, you can cast Agatha and give it +1 counter turn 2.
@@brandoncreek5709It would be difficult to assess whether that choice is relevant outside the context of the deck. Given that SnakeskinVeil is in 50% of Agatha decks, it does not appear to be an either/or factor. Many decks would both include Snakeskin to protect Agatha and the Mole to simultaneously power up her ability. I can see the merit in both.
Real innovation from Joey using his challenge the stats at instant speed instead of the traditional sorcery. Also, is the Syr Konrad card they use in every episode a Joey alter? Because that is sweet!
The more Green there is in the pod the longer the game is likely to take because of how much is happening on each Green player’s turns (especially with Enchantress and Landfall decks). So if I see more than one Green deck, and/or Control deck in a Commander pod I’m going to expect it to be a 1 or 2 game night. I was in a pod once at my LGS where we had 2 Green decks (1 Landfall and 1 Big Stompy) and 2 Control decks on our 2nd game of the night and we couldn’t even finish because the store had to close. And the first game we played was just as long because we all played Green decks that had just so much going on (I was close to winning that game too but somebody used mass land destruction and I was the first one out because I was hurt the most by it and couldn’t stabilize afterwards).
It would be interesting to see an episode on the number of permanents in the average deck vs. one off spells. I tend to lean heavily into permanents that give repeated value but it would be interesting to see how other people build decks and the thought process behind it.
I built an Agatha deck and it might just be one of my new favorite decks. It's not leaning into combos, but the versatility and flexibility of all of the activated abilities makes it really satisfying to pilot. It's even pulled off some insane wins! Once when I was at 1 life, and once on my upkeep at instant speed when i had my whole library milled before I would have had to draw and lose.
There are also decks that can look very scary, they start doing a lot but fold to the smallest piece of interaction and removal. One of my favorite decks Sauron, the Dark Lord does this. The way I built him is he makes a single big token and smacks you for a bunch and loots. But he struggles to end games if the token gets blocked or removed. One game i had I sat down with Syr Ginger, just threw the deck together the night before. I tell everyone out loud I have no idea how this deck will play. Guy next to me sits down plays a land passes net turn discards because he didnt land, next turn plays a black and plays reanimate on Avacyn. The rest of the game was just play a land get hit for 7.
46:20 I have to say, from personal experience, that when it comes to attackers take backs, it is almost always the fault of the attacker not giving people enough time to respond before actually declaring their attackers. So often I see people, sometimes even having an on board response, have to be like, ‘hey, actually we need to move to combat before you can just declare your attackers at me,’ not saying that is what this is referring to, but that’s usually how it plays out, at least in my experience
Rhystic Study : About "paying the one" for Rhystic Study, the player playing it is responsible of "remembering it", not the opponent. Remembering one’s trigger is always the responsibility of the player who controls the ability. This is usually, but not always, the controller of the object that has the ability. It doesn’t matter that the triggered ability may allow an opponent to take an optional action - the controller of the trigger is responsible for remembering it and prompting the opponent to make a choice. Examples include things like Frost Titan, Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tithe. One of the many skills tested in Magic is the ability of players to remember their own triggered abilities. Players should not be punished for the inabilities or poor memories of their opponents. Why might a player want to remind an opponent of their triggered ability? It’s possible that the trigger might benefit themselves more than their opponent or it might inconvenience their opponent so reminding them makes sense. And on the case of a player drawing late a card from Rhystic Study even in casual this should be forbidden because it let him draw potential answers he wouldn't have drawn if he didn't ask you the permission from is trigger.
I mean, i had a game last night where i had just finished my bladewing the risen blink deck(weird but seemed cool) andni explained the theme, and the guy next to me quitely switched decks, and his commander was one that whenever a nontoken creature died it came back under his control. Completely derailed my entire game, made my deck almost impossible to play because i HAD to use every single piece of removal on his commander otherwise i couldnt play. 😊
Is Bladewing a hidden Commander ? There is artifact blink effects but typically blink is through Azorius colors not Rakdos unless you include black return to play when it dies effects under blink. I’d be curious to hear how that deck works.
Commending players for doing something cool during a game is something I especially try to do with newer players. They need the encouragement, and deserve to know that it was something enjoyable.
I tend to be one of those Hunt the Weak players they were talking about. There's a couple reasons: my decks tend to be agro, such as Gruul Stompy and Boros Equipment, and the fewer players there are, the fewer chances that someone has an answer for the threats that I'm playing. But second, I found in my formative years of EDH that the player who didn't get picked on because they weren't in a strong position tended to win. These tended to be mana screwed players who didn't do anything early game and let their opponents spend all their resources on each other, or worse, a blue player who never put down a threat, thus was never pressured. Admittedly, there's been a few games where I felt bad for taking out a player around turn 5 or 6 because they never played a blocker, so I'm looking to make some of my deck less ... villainous? But I legitimately don't know how to play any other kind of deck, so if anyone has suggestions for an entrenched Naya Mage like me to slow my roll, I'm all ears.
In my play group we tend to remove "weak links", at least if you're in a strong position. the reason is : the paranoia of board wipe. The best way to ensure there isn't a reset incomming that might shift the game completely out of control is removing a player if you can.
46:04 part of what makes this part tricky is people will go “Rec Sage targeting x”. They skipped through passing priority while casting it so you have to go back
What do you guys feel about takebacks when it is closer to something like "I could have sequenced that better"? Like, let's say someone immediately plays a Rec Sage to deal with a Caged sun, then plays out a Beast whisperer/Guardian Project? I feel like I want everybody to be playing their best, and part of that, to me, is offering that level of takeback to my opponents if I catch them quickly enough, but I can see how that is very much something that can fall onto that weird vibes corner cases.
@@davidstar2686 Oh snap! Thanks. My decks are for sure more geared towards the slower start, but that's not to say they're not powerful decks. People at my LGSs typically are afraid of my decks, yet I avoid cards like Sol Ring, Rampant Growth, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, and other early turn tier 1 plays. I typically ramp via cards like Druid's Repository, Bear Umbra, Inspiring Statuary, and similar cards that are based more around being aggro or the strategy that the deck is aiming for. By avoiding those more staple cards, I can stay off people's radar and I won't draw as much removal.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel thank you. I have 29 commander decks and 8 oathbreaker decks. I really enjoy typal decks so I also remove tutors and staple cards like sol ring for those kinds of things. My favorite ramp cards are normally cards like the diamonds, sad robot, coveted jewel, and the plannar die rocks because my wife loves planeschase We save sol ring and crypt for decks with enough power to back it up early game.
@@davidstar2686 Oh snap, that's awesome! I love Covered Jewel, such a fun thing to add to the game. It's like Monarch on steroids and just gets everyone in the game attacking more and actually having to think about blocks and such.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I like to have one in all my creature decks. I also like to swap in bonders collar once in a while so my home pods have some random hug moments.
One aspect you didn't really touch upon is that, in order to avoid thirty minute turns, some decks just need to take "shortcuts", by which I mean: assume that your random 2-drop resolves, make sure to announce all your triggers and replacement effects, and then start resolving them without going around the table in priority order for every single trigger. If someone takes a second to consider their options or re-read a card, it's only fair to let them counter or stifle even though you've technically already started putting your counters and tokens on the battlefield. It's a common compromise in the interest of keeping the game moving. I think it's also fair to point out the interactions the table might not be familiar with and allow them to react after they have that information, even if that involves an ETB trigger they *technically* allowed by not countering the spell. Winning just because an opponent wasn't aware of a fringe rules interaction isn't in the spirit of EDH, in my humble opinion. YMMV based on your table's skill level, of course. My primary pod also meets for entire weekends, so we tend to be very lenient with missed triggers. When it's 2am and your seventh game of the night, you're bound to miss one here or there.
I think takebacks are fine if it’s something small while it’s still on the stack, and/or a play is made without a clear understanding of the situation. I’ve had to make a take back before on a play I made to buff a creature I was intending to block with not realizing at first that the attacker couldn’t be blocked by a bigger creature because it was a Ring Bearer (I had never played against a LOTR deck before that and didn’t know what the Ring Bearer benefits were fully yet). So I believe taking back small mistakes made based on a misunderstanding of publicly revealed information in the game, or the game has not advanced too far from a missed trigger that isn’t a “may” ability is fine. I’m also more understanding towards newer players because I myself am somewhat new to Magic (I only started collecting and really playing Magic around the time the Doctor Who Precons came out). I know that stress can also be a huge factor in such misplays and missed triggers because I personally get nervous in games about how much time I take to make decisions, when I’m not used to a new deck, or I have a lot to keep track of on my board and/or somebody else’s. And I am just as understanding about others not allowing takebacks when a game is reaching the point where decisions and consequences can dramatically change the overall state of the game (especially when it their stuff is being affected by it). So it really just comes down to timing, and the base comprehension level of the game itself.
This game might be deep, but how often do we see the same thing over, and over again? The social aspect of the game gives it a 4th dimension. The ability to play beyond just the cardboard, and play with friends is I think what really makes us love things like finding hidden gems, cool unique synergies, commanders built around theme, or in a clever way, commanders who involve your opponents. It's all tied to how your friends react, EVERY TIME. In short, we play with friends, not cards. Find ways to involve people, and commander will flourish.
i had a moment with my maeve deck where i hadn’t quite thought about its potential to make mana. in mono blue, having about 13 mana available on some ridiculously early turn casting my commander then goading three things that turn cycle. it was interesting for sure but im probably rarely gonna keep such big mana hands with that deck
I am aware that Grave Betrayal is a slow card, but that doesn’t stop me from still trying to play it. Currently running it in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck.
I feel 'taking a turn off' later can work if a board wipe happens in sequence *before* you (I.E. Farewell) then playing it during the rebuilding stage.
I am normally trying to build by decks in both ways, so they can be aggressive if no one else is, but have an alternative game plan to do if combat damage is not the way. That being said, I can see the phases you described quite frequently
14:43 I agree with Dana here; it is very frequent that someone has a very explosive start, and if someone doesn't cut them off early, it will develop into a nigh unstoppable force sooner, rather than later. 19:42 That moment when someone's response to play turn 2 Rhystic Study is to...play their own turn 2 Rhystic Study (yes, that has happened). 46:34 No, Joey, you are not being a butt for holding up standards, my dude. There's a fine line between being mean and standing your ground.
Regarding the Rec Sage and take back discussion, if you’re fearful of something of yours being targeted, there’s nothing stopping you from asking “what are you targeting with that?” And “if you’re coming after me I will counter that now. Choose wisely.” Make some deals 😆.
I have no problem without a play by turn 4. I'm a big fan of staying under the radar and letting my opponents use their removal on each other. I suppose I play a bit more casually, but still, I'm one of those guys that started taking sol ring out of most of my decks as I'm not looking for that kind of start.
Here’s a possible challenge the stats. Given the number of Shanna, Purifying Blade decks that run token generation as a lifegain engine, I find it odd that there are only 54 decks that are running Pledge of Unity. 3 mana to potentially gain a huge amount of life and grow your army seems very good. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
As usual, really great work. You guys make interesting and informative content. I do think the ire you show to combo wins at the end is a bit unwarranted. Combo has as much story to it's win as any other, it's just being done behind the scenes.
@@EDHRECast I'd agree with them that by mostly speaking about "we" at that part, it came maybe unintentionally out very much as don't play combo/control with us because it ruins the story of a game. Which is honestly not an unusual take in the commander community even though I don't personally agree with it and it may not be what was intended. I enjoyed this episode overall though.
The story: so, i wait until no one looks like will counter my tutor then i do the same to my combo pieces and i won! Every single game, every single time. What a funny story heh? Like a said 2 times in a row.
Surely the anatomy would be vastly different depending on power level as well? Because a game of CEDH is going to look VERY different than a game of, I dunno, artist tribal.
Not to knock artist tribal, I just finished up my John Avon tribal deck- I'm just saying it's going to be a much more relaxed game than a full on game of CEDH played on the stack on turn 3
I've learned I have alot of experience behind me playing, that I am often first target due to reputation of winning games even when I am far behind. Which I am ok with. But it means i have to build my decks a certain way.. more removal than normal. And more self protection than normal.
See my local playgroup usually just use the pre game discussion to see who has the best jokes or puns with their deck... and then when we start we realize that someone snuck in slivers into this game... again
My only bad encounter I’ve had so far was a guy I was playing with who read what my commander did( the whole table did because it was new) and without saying a word when the game started he had a commander that basically shut mine down.
I absolutely love Necrologia in my Queza deck. I love the reactions I get when I pay all but 1 life as I cast it. Also a brutal spell for a Hive Mind trigger.
@@AmazingChestTTV I'll cast Necrologia paying 30 life. Queza triggers give me all the life back and 30 life to remove from opponents as I wish, let's just say 10 to each. Hive Mind triggers and each opponent has a copy of Necrologia on the stack, paying 30 life. So it's a whole lot of potential life loss for opponents. The main focus of the deck is to make the entire table draw cards and punish or exploit everyone else when they do. Windfall + Hive Mind is also pretty devastating when I've got like 20+ cards in my hand.
@@Junon01That makes sense except for the part about the copies making opponents pay 30 life. You pay the life as an additional cost when casting the spell, but the copies from Hive Mind aren't cast, they're just created, so no one else would have to pay life, but the value of X would be the same.
@@AmazingChestTTV Believe me, I checked the rules and rulings when I was making cuts.... and I thought I had this correct when I did!! But I mistakenly took the ruling that says "A copy’s controller can’t choose to pay any additional costs..." to mean that they had no choice but to pay the additional cost. I knew that if the opponents were actually casting the copies they could just make X=0, so the difference when the copy is created on the stack makes sense. Thanks for the clarification! I've only been playing for just over a year.
@@Junon01 no worries. MTG is only one of the most complex games ever and almost no one fully understands the way every card interaction should work. I had to look up the rulings on Hive Mind and all the rules about copying spells to make sure there wasn't something I was missing myself before I replied. I've even built whole decks around a specific interaction only to realize later that it didn't work the way I thought. both of those cards still seem good on their own in a Queza deck though.
I run maybe one or two tutors in my 13 decks, so I usually see decks winning by turn 6-7 as, not cEDH, but highly competitive casual. My decks don't really pop off until turn 9 at the earliest. Am I alone in this? I just like keeping it casual and love to actually see if my decks can beat yours when each does it's thing without the help of tutors.
i have said "i swear this doesnt usually happen" and a guy said "i heard that before". but come one.. i was playing a budget (50euro) golgari counters deck. And managed to win cause 4 cards were untouched and synergistic together.. none being the commander. So sometimes... it really doesnt usually do that
Since I don't trust people's evaluation of their own decks power, I usually ask if I can quickly skim through it. Or if they have an online decklist. Far too often I've told people my deck is a high power deck, only for them to say "yeah, mine too" and they are playing a precon with 5-10 upgrades. If I took them at their word it wouldn't have been a good experience for anyone. If someone refuses to communicate their decks powerlevel, I break out a cEDH deck and give them a piece of their own medicine. Then we can have the rule 0 discussion after the game when they no longer feel so clever.
I realized that I needed to build weaker decks after playing with Krenko and opening with a Sol Ring and Thousand-Year Elixir in hand. The game was very fast and not fun at all.
55:48 really don’t see inkshield as more interesting as a combo. It’s the same thing. I have no problem with combos personally but I don’t see an inkshield winning out of nowhere any different
Inkshield is just a one card wincon instead of a two card combo wincon. They both would feel equally unearned. To each their own, but I have never cared for these anti climactic, unearned wins to end a game. I agree with the analogy of it being a story. You want the story up until the end to be leading to something great, not to simply be dismissed at the end as irrelevant.
I can't agree that Command Beacon effects doesn't belong in Kadena. She eats so much removal due to her being your principal draw engine, and her deck is quite mana hungry, especially when you've powered up the deck a good notch or three. I run it, and it would have to be a real bombshell that took that card's place in my deck.
Drill works mole may not seem great at first glance, but in the right situation it can be awesome. Imagine you have 3 other creatures with activated abilities in play. Pay 1 mana to reduce the collective cost of your activated abilities by 3. Maybe a bit of a win more card, but still not terrible.
No wonder you get multiple LoL references playing and discussing EDH; had Commander existed pre-Kamigawa it very well could have been called League of Legends instead
Ever describe your deck completely, ie it's a land stax deck built around Storm Cauldron, and still have people complain about the deck doing the Storm Cauldron thing?
The mole looks like a fine enabler for the deck. 1 mana to make both it and her bigger and reduce the cost of everything else's abilities seems like it ends up doing a lot more work than you would expect for 1 mana. Haven't played the deck though, so maybe it's just bad 🤷♂
It's really good. I built the deck when WOE was released and got the Soul Cauldron in it as well. If you exile the mole with the Cauldron your Agatha gains the ability to 1,T: Put two counters on her.
One important thing regarding triggers is that they are EVERYONE's responsibility. Not just the person who plays it. Yeah, we'll all miss triggers, but you don't get to ignore someone's Rhystic Study because they aren't paying attention. "Do you pay the 1" is a bit of a meme and we love to say it, but ideally the player casting the spell should remember to pay the 1 without being reminded by someone at the table.
That is wrong. If it’s a may ability, and the person controlling the triggered ability says nothing, the game assumes they chose to ignore the trigger. If it wasn’t a may ability, then it would be required by all parties to keep track of it, but even in competitive settings a little more emphasis of blame is put on the one controlling the permanent with the triggered ability.
Hard disagree with the Inkshield... I used to love and play that card all the time in my Orzhov Aristocrats, but what I realized is that out of 5 games I won, 4 were due to Inkshield. It didn't matter if my engine was on or off, if I was the archenemy, if I was last... that card was winning the game by itself. Even a combo needs some setup, Inkshield just needs mana to cast.
I hate the turns to win conversation. The number of times someone has said turn 8-9 and then they drop their $20,000 staxx deck or a deck that wins with combat damage. You just get stuck in 8 turns of being outclassed or soft locked out.
So, I really think you guys have it wrong about combos and high level play. The game gets more, not less, interesting when everyone didn't compromise during the deck building process. The game gets better, not worse, when everyone is trying their hardest to win. If someone sits down with me at a cEDH table, I don't have to have a weird discussion to figure out if I should leave or not. We just play. If we lose, we have to consider that interaction when deck building now. If someone wins on combo, I need to have a real discussion with myself on if I plan to prep against that in the future. I think I've only ever hurt people's feelings at casual tables - not cEDH tables. Hot take, whining until your friends change their play patterns is toxic.
Some people like to see more diverse cards and strategies. CEDH is fine as long as everyone wants to play advanced rock paper scissors. I like to build my own decks and cEDH meta is solved.
@@collinshields1019 cEDH is not solved. Take a look at some of the most recent tournament results. They're all kinds of new weird decks there. Just like with every game, a meta emerges, but the field is pretty wide. Also, because of the large card pool, new effective strategies are being discovered all the time.
Okay im kind of annoyed at the arguments Matt has with Joey when he challenges stats. Like just move on please, its not that funny or entertaining to hear the little bickering (especially from Matt)
Hey EDHRECast, I've been an avid watcher for a long time and wanted to say you guys have been doing amazing work for commander and to keep up the good work!
Guys, sorry for the really tough name but soooooo glad I have been mentionned online :D Atroxentis is the name of my band and comes from a dad joke in Latin. Love ya guys ! (Olivier)
I think the drillworks mole is being paired with Agatha's soul cauldron.
By having a +1/+1 on Agatha and the mole exiled to the cauldron, the player can now pay 1 and tap agatha to give her 2 +1/+1 counters.
Edit: It starts to make more sense when you see the amount of Invokers on her page as well
Yeah, I think it's less the Mole's ability being the draw on its own with her reduction, but the use of it for easy growth of her power to get the old draft wincon creatures' abilities online for cheap.
Thank you for this tech! I just built her and have been relying on Forgotten Ancient or Halena and Alena (I think that's their name) for counters as well as just randomly exiling creatures with cauldron. I did win the first game I played... Svella is definitely an all-star in the 99.
@@andrewfornes5320Snakeskin Veil, Vastwood Fortification, Rishkar, Agitator Ant, Fight Rigging, all great cards in my own agatha list as well
Plus it can give that ability to any creature with a 1/1 counter on it. Spare mana at the end of the end step before your turn? Pump Agatha up by a lot and make all your creatures bigger. Do you have All Will Be One on the field? Start burning things out.
Exactly plus even discounting the cauldron synergy being able to drop it on turn 1 Agatha turn 2 and just racking up her power is completely reasonable on its own
I think the goal of Drillworks Mole isnt necessarily that Agatha reduces its activation cost. Thats more of a side effect.
Its that it importantly puts counters on Agatha, which powers up her cost reduction.
I dont think that necessarily means its a great card in the deck, but I think you need to evaluate it on the basis of it pumping Agatha for cheap rather than on how much Agatha enables the mole.
This episode just revealed to me that Craw Wurm got reprinted enough to merit an alternate art.
Somehow It has 3😂
Boardwipes and Control are part of the game as well, at every stage. You can't just expect for people to sit there and just lose without doing anything. Otherwise is just a race between four games of solitaire.
So…cEDH? :p
cEDH is the exact opposite of solitaire. People barely run any win conditions excluding super degenerate combos so they can pack more interaction.
My group does Takebacks more in the sense of "If you haven't gained new information since the point you want to roll back to, it's okay"
I have one deck in particular built to make the game go a certain way, a zombie deck with Nevinyrral that is designed to have as many ways as possible to create an arbitrary number of zombies. When it works it creates a true zombie apocalypse movie, a slow start as everyone underestimates the horde while tangling with each other, the moment someone’s mistake leads to an endless army of the dead besieging the walls, and then either a moment of heroic co-operation as former enemies work together to conquer the scourge or of selfish despair as they protect themselves first and let the horde take the others. I even took out all of the aristo win cons specifically because the full turn cycle where three other players are trying to figure out how the hell to survive is so fun, and is more fun for the other players. Nevinyrral’s Zombie Apocalypse is one of the most fun decks I play.
I play nevinyrral too, and it’s called the nevinyrral disco, when he keeps bouncing in and out of the battlefield and blowing everything up, and it does become the theme of the game every time 😂
"I edit the show THAT IS NOT GONNA FLY" and this is why ladies and gentleman and everything in between, Joey is and will always be the only Challenge the Stats rightful heir.
Love your show 👍 in 2025 i am flying from Norway to US and head for Magicon... I am definently going to play with all.
I love these three men. They have such a cool and diverse take and they are giant dorks ❤️.
Special shoutout to Dana. You mentioned a Vhal + Haunted one deck a while back, and I went searching for it. Thankfully it was up on your Archidekt.
I had almost got this deck to work but couldn't figure it out. Your list was great to get my head around the pieces I needed!
Low key, the “slightly less vs more powerful threat” is the crux of good gameplay
I’ve totally taken on Joey’s deck list for Baba Lysaga. It’s so much fun and I’m glad that Joey has convinced me to build it.
I've been thinking about it for about a month.
I'm not playing Joey's list (I play a heavier lands strat), but he DID get me into the deck by talking about how fun it is. Can confirm, it's suuuper fun
This is the baba lyjoey fan club. I built it because of him too!! Lol
If I didn't already have 3 Golgari decks I would build her. I was between Baba Lysaga and Yargle and Multani, and I already wanted to build a deck where all I did was repeatedly sac my commander, so Yargle and Multani won that choice..
The last episode of gameplay he was on (I think Commander at Home?) Really made me want to build it. Looked absolutely amazing to play
Challenge the stats option is cadaverous bloom in Korvold, Fae-Cursed King Decks. It's in only 15 decks and I think it should be in way more. It allows the player to keep the chain going of casting spells by exiling all the lands they draw with Korvod.
Not to mention it has the history value of being part of one of the first dedicated combo decks.
Yeah Korvold really needs the help here to be powerful... sarcasm btw.
@@JelloBrandIt's about making the deck more consistent so the deck doesn't stall out and waste everyone's time
Love the point about Reclaimation Sage- I play a landfall deck where I often pump my attackers after blocks...
I often have to make it crystal clear that I'm hitting for 15 F O R N O W- COULD BE MORE LATER :)
I think the mole is there to boost Agatha. I don’t think the players care about the Mole’s activated ability, but it would seem the player would want a sure fire way to boost Agatha’s power in order to reduce the cost of OTHER activated abilities.
Thinking the same thing. Pay 1 colorless to activate the mole, Agatha gets a +1/+1, now every other ability you activate going forward costs 1 less. If you sol ring and mole turn 1, you can cast Agatha and give it +1 counter turn 2.
This is true, it's just a little too low-impact IMO. I'd rather have a Snakeskin Veil or something for added protection.
@@brandoncreek5709It would be difficult to assess whether that choice is relevant outside the context of the deck. Given that SnakeskinVeil is in 50% of Agatha decks, it does not appear to be an either/or factor. Many decks would both include Snakeskin to protect Agatha and the Mole to simultaneously power up her ability. I can see the merit in both.
Real innovation from Joey using his challenge the stats at instant speed instead of the traditional sorcery. Also, is the Syr Konrad card they use in every episode a Joey alter? Because that is sweet!
It is the basic Syr Konrad with Joey’s face photo-shopped onto it.
Edit: There are some other details that were altered like the lantern.
21:37 Joey, you are my spirit animal.
The more Green there is in the pod the longer the game is likely to take because of how much is happening on each Green player’s turns (especially with Enchantress and Landfall decks). So if I see more than one Green deck, and/or Control deck in a Commander pod I’m going to expect it to be a 1 or 2 game night. I was in a pod once at my LGS where we had 2 Green decks (1 Landfall and 1 Big Stompy) and 2 Control decks on our 2nd game of the night and we couldn’t even finish because the store had to close. And the first game we played was just as long because we all played Green decks that had just so much going on (I was close to winning that game too but somebody used mass land destruction and I was the first one out because I was hurt the most by it and couldn’t stabilize afterwards).
It would be interesting to see an episode on the number of permanents in the average deck vs. one off spells. I tend to lean heavily into permanents that give repeated value but it would be interesting to see how other people build decks and the thought process behind it.
I built an Agatha deck and it might just be one of my new favorite decks. It's not leaning into combos, but the versatility and flexibility of all of the activated abilities makes it really satisfying to pilot.
It's even pulled off some insane wins! Once when I was at 1 life, and once on my upkeep at instant speed when i had my whole library milled before I would have had to draw and lose.
Great topic and discussion. Thank you all.
There are also decks that can look very scary, they start doing a lot but fold to the smallest piece of interaction and removal.
One of my favorite decks Sauron, the Dark Lord does this. The way I built him is he makes a single big token and smacks you for a bunch and loots. But he struggles to end games if the token gets blocked or removed.
One game i had I sat down with Syr Ginger, just threw the deck together the night before. I tell everyone out loud I have no idea how this deck will play. Guy next to me sits down plays a land passes net turn discards because he didnt land, next turn plays a black and plays reanimate on Avacyn. The rest of the game was just play a land get hit for 7.
My Galadriel scry deck does this. Lots of moving synergies but some removal and it stops the engine.
46:20 I have to say, from personal experience, that when it comes to attackers take backs, it is almost always the fault of the attacker not giving people enough time to respond before actually declaring their attackers. So often I see people, sometimes even having an on board response, have to be like, ‘hey, actually we need to move to combat before you can just declare your attackers at me,’ not saying that is what this is referring to, but that’s usually how it plays out, at least in my experience
I mean, if they do rush past the beginning of combat phase you can always force them to back up because they’re required to allow people to respond
Rhystic Study :
About "paying the one" for Rhystic Study, the player playing it is responsible of "remembering it", not the opponent.
Remembering one’s trigger is always the responsibility of the player who controls the ability. This is usually, but not always, the controller of the object that has the ability. It doesn’t matter that the triggered ability may allow an opponent to take an optional action - the controller of the trigger is responsible for remembering it and prompting the opponent to make a choice. Examples include things like Frost Titan, Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tithe. One of the many skills tested in Magic is the ability of players to remember their own triggered abilities. Players should not be punished for the inabilities or poor memories of their opponents. Why might a player want to remind an opponent of their triggered ability? It’s possible that the trigger might benefit themselves more than their opponent or it might inconvenience their opponent so reminding them makes sense. And on the case of a player drawing late a card from Rhystic Study even in casual this should be forbidden because it let him draw potential answers he wouldn't have drawn if he didn't ask you the permission from is trigger.
I mean, i had a game last night where i had just finished my bladewing the risen blink deck(weird but seemed cool) andni explained the theme, and the guy next to me quitely switched decks, and his commander was one that whenever a nontoken creature died it came back under his control. Completely derailed my entire game, made my deck almost impossible to play because i HAD to use every single piece of removal on his commander otherwise i couldnt play. 😊
Is Bladewing a hidden Commander ? There is artifact blink effects but typically blink is through Azorius colors not Rakdos unless you include black return to play when it dies effects under blink. I’d be curious to hear how that deck works.
Commending players for doing something cool during a game is something I especially try to do with newer players. They need the encouragement, and deserve to know that it was something enjoyable.
I tend to be one of those Hunt the Weak players they were talking about. There's a couple reasons: my decks tend to be agro, such as Gruul Stompy and Boros Equipment, and the fewer players there are, the fewer chances that someone has an answer for the threats that I'm playing. But second, I found in my formative years of EDH that the player who didn't get picked on because they weren't in a strong position tended to win. These tended to be mana screwed players who didn't do anything early game and let their opponents spend all their resources on each other, or worse, a blue player who never put down a threat, thus was never pressured.
Admittedly, there's been a few games where I felt bad for taking out a player around turn 5 or 6 because they never played a blocker, so I'm looking to make some of my deck less ... villainous? But I legitimately don't know how to play any other kind of deck, so if anyone has suggestions for an entrenched Naya Mage like me to slow my roll, I'm all ears.
Was going through my cards and he mentioned sakura-tribe elder right at the exact moment I can't across mine. Wild timing
In my play group we tend to remove "weak links", at least if you're in a strong position. the reason is : the paranoia of board wipe. The best way to ensure there isn't a reset incomming that might shift the game completely out of control is removing a player if you can.
46:04 part of what makes this part tricky is people will go “Rec Sage targeting x”. They skipped through passing priority while casting it so you have to go back
What do you guys feel about takebacks when it is closer to something like "I could have sequenced that better"? Like, let's say someone immediately plays a Rec Sage to deal with a Caged sun, then plays out a Beast whisperer/Guardian Project? I feel like I want everybody to be playing their best, and part of that, to me, is offering that level of takeback to my opponents if I catch them quickly enough, but I can see how that is very much something that can fall onto that weird vibes corner cases.
I don´t mind it as long as it doesn´t affect the game too much
Looking forward to this episode!
I would love to here about how your decks fit into these categories. I love your content!
@@davidstar2686 Oh snap! Thanks. My decks are for sure more geared towards the slower start, but that's not to say they're not powerful decks. People at my LGSs typically are afraid of my decks, yet I avoid cards like Sol Ring, Rampant Growth, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, and other early turn tier 1 plays. I typically ramp via cards like Druid's Repository, Bear Umbra, Inspiring Statuary, and similar cards that are based more around being aggro or the strategy that the deck is aiming for. By avoiding those more staple cards, I can stay off people's radar and I won't draw as much removal.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel thank you. I have 29 commander decks and 8 oathbreaker decks. I really enjoy typal decks so I also remove tutors and staple cards like sol ring for those kinds of things. My favorite ramp cards are normally cards like the diamonds, sad robot, coveted jewel, and the plannar die rocks because my wife loves planeschase
We save sol ring and crypt for decks with enough power to back it up early game.
@@davidstar2686 Oh snap, that's awesome! I love Covered Jewel, such a fun thing to add to the game. It's like Monarch on steroids and just gets everyone in the game attacking more and actually having to think about blocks and such.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I like to have one in all my creature decks. I also like to swap in bonders collar once in a while so my home pods have some random hug moments.
One aspect you didn't really touch upon is that, in order to avoid thirty minute turns, some decks just need to take "shortcuts", by which I mean: assume that your random 2-drop resolves, make sure to announce all your triggers and replacement effects, and then start resolving them without going around the table in priority order for every single trigger. If someone takes a second to consider their options or re-read a card, it's only fair to let them counter or stifle even though you've technically already started putting your counters and tokens on the battlefield. It's a common compromise in the interest of keeping the game moving.
I think it's also fair to point out the interactions the table might not be familiar with and allow them to react after they have that information, even if that involves an ETB trigger they *technically* allowed by not countering the spell. Winning just because an opponent wasn't aware of a fringe rules interaction isn't in the spirit of EDH, in my humble opinion. YMMV based on your table's skill level, of course.
My primary pod also meets for entire weekends, so we tend to be very lenient with missed triggers. When it's 2am and your seventh game of the night, you're bound to miss one here or there.
I think takebacks are fine if it’s something small while it’s still on the stack, and/or a play is made without a clear understanding of the situation. I’ve had to make a take back before on a play I made to buff a creature I was intending to block with not realizing at first that the attacker couldn’t be blocked by a bigger creature because it was a Ring Bearer (I had never played against a LOTR deck before that and didn’t know what the Ring Bearer benefits were fully yet). So I believe taking back small mistakes made based on a misunderstanding of publicly revealed information in the game, or the game has not advanced too far from a missed trigger that isn’t a “may” ability is fine. I’m also more understanding towards newer players because I myself am somewhat new to Magic (I only started collecting and really playing Magic around the time the Doctor Who Precons came out). I know that stress can also be a huge factor in such misplays and missed triggers because I personally get nervous in games about how much time I take to make decisions, when I’m not used to a new deck, or I have a lot to keep track of on my board and/or somebody else’s. And I am just as understanding about others not allowing takebacks when a game is reaching the point where decisions and consequences can dramatically change the overall state of the game (especially when it their stuff is being affected by it). So it really just comes down to timing, and the base comprehension level of the game itself.
This game might be deep, but how often do we see the same thing over, and over again?
The social aspect of the game gives it a 4th dimension. The ability to play beyond just the cardboard, and play with friends is I think what really makes us love things like finding hidden gems, cool unique synergies, commanders built around theme, or in a clever way, commanders who involve your opponents. It's all tied to how your friends react, EVERY TIME.
In short, we play with friends, not cards. Find ways to involve people, and commander will flourish.
i had a moment with my maeve deck where i hadn’t quite thought about its potential to make mana. in mono blue, having about 13 mana available on some ridiculously early turn casting my commander then goading three things that turn cycle. it was interesting for sure but im probably rarely gonna keep such big mana hands with that deck
playing in Croatia now and it's great. very healthy games with managed expectations.
I am aware that Grave Betrayal is a slow card, but that doesn’t stop me from still trying to play it. Currently running it in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck.
I feel 'taking a turn off' later can work if a board wipe happens in sequence *before* you (I.E. Farewell) then playing it during the rebuilding stage.
Ah the best podcast of the week
I am normally trying to build by decks in both ways, so they can be aggressive if no one else is, but have an alternative game plan to do if combat damage is not the way. That being said, I can see the phases you described quite frequently
14:43 I agree with Dana here; it is very frequent that someone has a very explosive start, and if someone doesn't cut them off early, it will develop into a nigh unstoppable force sooner, rather than later.
19:42 That moment when someone's response to play turn 2 Rhystic Study is to...play their own turn 2 Rhystic Study (yes, that has happened).
46:34 No, Joey, you are not being a butt for holding up standards, my dude. There's a fine line between being mean and standing your ground.
Regarding the Rec Sage and take back discussion, if you’re fearful of something of yours being targeted, there’s nothing stopping you from asking “what are you targeting with that?” And “if you’re coming after me I will counter that now. Choose wisely.” Make some deals 😆.
I have no problem without a play by turn 4. I'm a big fan of staying under the radar and letting my opponents use their removal on each other. I suppose I play a bit more casually, but still, I'm one of those guys that started taking sol ring out of most of my decks as I'm not looking for that kind of start.
Here’s a possible challenge the stats. Given the number of Shanna, Purifying Blade decks that run token generation as a lifegain engine, I find it odd that there are only 54 decks that are running Pledge of Unity. 3 mana to potentially gain a huge amount of life and grow your army seems very good. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
I don't know about Drillworks Mole in Agatha decks, but I am realizing that I should be running the card in my Omarthis, Ghostfire Initiate deck.
As usual, really great work. You guys make interesting and informative content. I do think the ire you show to combo wins at the end is a bit unwarranted. Combo has as much story to it's win as any other, it's just being done behind the scenes.
Thanks! Don't confuse us *observing* people's ire to be the same as *endorsing* people's ire! ;)
@@EDHRECast I'd agree with them that by mostly speaking about "we" at that part, it came maybe unintentionally out very much as don't play combo/control with us because it ruins the story of a game.
Which is honestly not an unusual take in the commander community even though I don't personally agree with it and it may not be what was intended.
I enjoyed this episode overall though.
The story: so, i wait until no one looks like will counter my tutor then i do the same to my combo pieces and i won!
Every single game, every single time. What a funny story heh? Like a said 2 times in a row.
Surely the anatomy would be vastly different depending on power level as well? Because a game of CEDH is going to look VERY different than a game of, I dunno, artist tribal.
Not to knock artist tribal, I just finished up my John Avon tribal deck- I'm just saying it's going to be a much more relaxed game than a full on game of CEDH played on the stack on turn 3
Unless they say otherwise, they are always assuming the casual level of play.
4:18 (Joey casts Time Stop) 🤣
I've learned I have alot of experience behind me playing, that I am often first target due to reputation of winning games even when I am far behind. Which I am ok with. But it means i have to build my decks a certain way.. more removal than normal. And more self protection than normal.
See my local playgroup usually just use the pre game discussion to see who has the best jokes or puns with their deck... and then when we start we realize that someone snuck in slivers into this game... again
I often find post-game discussion way easier to handle than pre-game ones.
My only bad encounter I’ve had so far was a guy I was playing with who read what my commander did( the whole table did because it was new) and without saying a word when the game started he had a commander that basically shut mine down.
Joey, would LOVE to see a Hylda deck tech on Upping the Average🔥🙏🏼
Joey with the perfect segway!
"PIVOT!" - Ross
I absolutely love Necrologia in my Queza deck. I love the reactions I get when I pay all but 1 life as I cast it. Also a brutal spell for a Hive Mind trigger.
What is the synergy with Hive Mind?
@@AmazingChestTTV I'll cast Necrologia paying 30 life. Queza triggers give me all the life back and 30 life to remove from opponents as I wish, let's just say 10 to each. Hive Mind triggers and each opponent has a copy of Necrologia on the stack, paying 30 life. So it's a whole lot of potential life loss for opponents. The main focus of the deck is to make the entire table draw cards and punish or exploit everyone else when they do. Windfall + Hive Mind is also pretty devastating when I've got like 20+ cards in my hand.
@@Junon01That makes sense except for the part about the copies making opponents pay 30 life. You pay the life as an additional cost when casting the spell, but the copies from Hive Mind aren't cast, they're just created, so no one else would have to pay life, but the value of X would be the same.
@@AmazingChestTTV Believe me, I checked the rules and rulings when I was making cuts.... and I thought I had this correct when I did!! But I mistakenly took the ruling that says "A copy’s controller can’t choose to pay any additional costs..." to mean that they had no choice but to pay the additional cost. I knew that if the opponents were actually casting the copies they could just make X=0, so the difference when the copy is created on the stack makes sense. Thanks for the clarification! I've only been playing for just over a year.
@@Junon01 no worries. MTG is only one of the most complex games ever and almost no one fully understands the way every card interaction should work. I had to look up the rulings on Hive Mind and all the rules about copying spells to make sure there wasn't something I was missing myself before I replied. I've even built whole decks around a specific interaction only to realize later that it didn't work the way I thought. both of those cards still seem good on their own in a Queza deck though.
Extremely good dad joke back and forth
I run maybe one or two tutors in my 13 decks, so I usually see decks winning by turn 6-7 as, not cEDH, but highly competitive casual. My decks don't really pop off until turn 9 at the earliest. Am I alone in this? I just like keeping it casual and love to actually see if my decks can beat yours when each does it's thing without the help of tutors.
Okay where can I find that Chisei deck?!
i have said "i swear this doesnt usually happen" and a guy said "i heard that before". but come one.. i was playing a budget (50euro) golgari counters deck. And managed to win cause 4 cards were untouched and synergistic together.. none being the commander. So sometimes... it really doesnt usually do that
If new information has been revealed no take backsies, or if you're like 3 plays ahead of yourself you cant rewind thw whole way.
Since I don't trust people's evaluation of their own decks power, I usually ask if I can quickly skim through it. Or if they have an online decklist. Far too often I've told people my deck is a high power deck, only for them to say "yeah, mine too" and they are playing a precon with 5-10 upgrades. If I took them at their word it wouldn't have been a good experience for anyone.
If someone refuses to communicate their decks powerlevel, I break out a cEDH deck and give them a piece of their own medicine. Then we can have the rule 0 discussion after the game when they no longer feel so clever.
Great Job as usual... entertaining and interesting
I realized that I needed to build weaker decks after playing with Krenko and opening with a Sol Ring and Thousand-Year Elixir in hand. The game was very fast and not fun at all.
I have Krenko for newer players to play and have a good chance at winning.
Drill works mole can increase the power of the commander making their first line stronger... for other effects
21:45 Syr Konrad looks different, did I miss something in the video?
It’s the Syr Konrad art with Joey’s face photo-shopped onto it.
It’s an alter sleeve art of Joey, they made them a while ago. The reclamation sage is the same way with Matt’s likeness
55:48 really don’t see inkshield as more interesting as a combo. It’s the same thing. I have no problem with combos personally but I don’t see an inkshield winning out of nowhere any different
Inkshield is just a one card wincon instead of a two card combo wincon. They both would feel equally unearned. To each their own, but I have never cared for these anti climactic, unearned wins to end a game. I agree with the analogy of it being a story. You want the story up until the end to be leading to something great, not to simply be dismissed at the end as irrelevant.
The mole gives Agatha a cheap consistent +1 counter every turn. Her ability reduction is based on her power. Plus it's such a low target for removal
Thumbs up for that matt dad joke 👍🏻
I can't agree that Command Beacon effects doesn't belong in Kadena. She eats so much removal due to her being your principal draw engine, and her deck is quite mana hungry, especially when you've powered up the deck a good notch or three. I run it, and it would have to be a real bombshell that took that card's place in my deck.
Drill works mole may not seem great at first glance, but in the right situation it can be awesome. Imagine you have 3 other creatures with activated abilities in play. Pay 1 mana to reduce the collective cost of your activated abilities by 3. Maybe a bit of a win more card, but still not terrible.
No wonder you get multiple LoL references playing and discussing EDH; had Commander existed pre-Kamigawa it very well could have been called League of Legends instead
What is turn 7?
I know some people that go after the player they know is good whether they r in the lead or behind lol................
Ever describe your deck completely, ie it's a land stax deck built around Storm Cauldron, and still have people complain about the deck doing the Storm Cauldron thing?
You had me at Stax (leaving the table to find another game).
The mole looks like a fine enabler for the deck. 1 mana to make both it and her bigger and reduce the cost of everything else's abilities seems like it ends up doing a lot more work than you would expect for 1 mana. Haven't played the deck though, so maybe it's just bad 🤷♂
It's really good. I built the deck when WOE was released and got the Soul Cauldron in it as well. If you exile the mole with the Cauldron your Agatha gains the ability to 1,T: Put two counters on her.
Nah sorry Matt, Joey got this Segway. You had not mentioned challenge the stats at all
Suggestion if you aren't doing this already. Clip the dad jokes and make them the shorts for your channel.
ROR has been removed.
Alright, alright, alright
If you miss your trigger and its a may sorry not sorry
One important thing regarding triggers is that they are EVERYONE's responsibility. Not just the person who plays it. Yeah, we'll all miss triggers, but you don't get to ignore someone's Rhystic Study because they aren't paying attention. "Do you pay the 1" is a bit of a meme and we love to say it, but ideally the player casting the spell should remember to pay the 1 without being reminded by someone at the table.
Except they're not. It's in the rules
That is wrong. If it’s a may ability, and the person controlling the triggered ability says nothing, the game assumes they chose to ignore the trigger. If it wasn’t a may ability, then it would be required by all parties to keep track of it, but even in competitive settings a little more emphasis of blame is put on the one controlling the permanent with the triggered ability.
I like Road of Return. It tends to do some good work in my Kogla feck.
I LOST THE GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hard disagree with the Inkshield... I used to love and play that card all the time in my Orzhov Aristocrats, but what I realized is that out of 5 games I won, 4 were due to Inkshield. It didn't matter if my engine was on or off, if I was the archenemy, if I was last... that card was winning the game by itself. Even a combo needs some setup, Inkshield just needs mana to cast.
Nice, got to be like #690 lol
I hate the turns to win conversation. The number of times someone has said turn 8-9 and then they drop their $20,000 staxx deck or a deck that wins with combat damage. You just get stuck in 8 turns of being outclassed or soft locked out.
So, I really think you guys have it wrong about combos and high level play. The game gets more, not less, interesting when everyone didn't compromise during the deck building process. The game gets better, not worse, when everyone is trying their hardest to win. If someone sits down with me at a cEDH table, I don't have to have a weird discussion to figure out if I should leave or not. We just play. If we lose, we have to consider that interaction when deck building now. If someone wins on combo, I need to have a real discussion with myself on if I plan to prep against that in the future. I think I've only ever hurt people's feelings at casual tables - not cEDH tables. Hot take, whining until your friends change their play patterns is toxic.
Some people like to see more diverse cards and strategies. CEDH is fine as long as everyone wants to play advanced rock paper scissors. I like to build my own decks and cEDH meta is solved.
@@collinshields1019 cEDH is not solved. Take a look at some of the most recent tournament results. They're all kinds of new weird decks there. Just like with every game, a meta emerges, but the field is pretty wide. Also, because of the large card pool, new effective strategies are being discovered all the time.
Okay im kind of annoyed at the arguments Matt has with Joey when he challenges stats. Like just move on please, its not that funny or entertaining to hear the little bickering (especially from Matt)