Same here. I learned only last week: quads for stretchable, malleabe models like character, and n-gons for hard-surfaced models only if you want shapes fixed and unchanged. Before last week, I used to do quads on all hard-surfaces and avoid n-gons for wrong reasons. Now I welcome n-gons for hard-surfaced models.
First, I would like to say that creating the hard surface with boolean workflow instead of the classic quad box modelling, it's faster allows more iterations and changes during development and art direction and I encourage everyone to implement in your workflow. But the final deliverable should always be in quads. That means you should manual/automatic and fix your hard surface. That's what the VFX industry requires at least at the top-level studios. All hard surface models are subdivided at final renders and usually change different software too. Like take your model in Houdini for simulations or rigged in Maya, painted in Mari /SubstancePainter/3d coat etc. My advice as a 3d art director to modellers should be to always learn to have a clean topology as a deliverable. Having a boolean can help for concept designs, build something quick etc but the final should be cleaned up.
VFX is a completely different area, so yes, quads are a must. I disagree about the final deliverable model being in quads. If it is a static hard surface game asset with proper triangulation then it is a waste of time. I have delivered game ready models using ngons by simply triangulating them properly. The software will never know whether you modeled in ngons/quads because everything will be triangles. Houdini is for simulations, and rigging requires careful topology as well. Neither of these are purely hard surface. I am talking specifically about hard surface models only without the exceptions of BFX/organics, where it obviously won’t work
@@JoshGambrell yup i will agree on that for game models if you properly controlled triangulate them, so those area's won't screw over in the engine. it's a really good to go and big time saver for unrequited topology.
@@JoshGambrell you delivered "game ready models using n-gons"? This is a bad habit the finished model should be quads and triangles. This is to avoid guesswork when game engines triangulate models.
@@PrefoX point me to a pro that only models in quads please. Even the guns in modern video games does not, characters are the only exception, and thats only around animated areas.
@@JoshGambrell I am learning Blender, coming from Solidworks and going through the Blender Guru tutorials you are talking about like the chair one. I am trying to replicate all the furniture products I've done throughout the years in SW to Blender so I can do photorealistic models (contemporary products, some with upholstery as well), and then sell them on something like CG trader so I can earn some passive income with products that I had already done in 3D. For this purpose, my main question as a noob is - is this a viable way to make the 3Ds assets that I want to sell or will I have problems with clients in the future because of "bad topology" and what not? Thank you in advance ;)
I agree with him. Back when I started learning 3d 12 years ago, using quadrilateral workflow was a necessity and there weren't any tutorials to teach or preach otherwise. If something saves your time in 3D, learn it with all your might; I had to figure this out the hard way trying to Sub-D my way through abominations that looked nothing like the reference I was modelling them on until I decided to actually actively study edgeflow. Understanding Box modelling, curves modelling, Nurbs or even metaball modelling are valuable as a skill, but one should always remember that they are core skills that are to be learnt gradually and not be held as something of a dogmatic practice that is mocked or memed to moon. If you enjoy Boolean workflow, take your time with it while still making steady progress in traditional modelling techniques, the plethora of information on them and their absolute dominance in certain industry makes them a distant yet important goal. I find this channel a breathe of fresh air for hard surface enthusiasts and wish we as a community (*cough blender cult *cough) should embrace the prospect of ingenuity in application rather than mindless debate and discussion on what reigns supreme.
The key people need to understand is that quads are only essential with meshes you're going to deform. I'd avoid ngons on a character, but for hard surface it's a non-issue
@reezlaw: Nice clarification. Is that a hard rule or would there be exceptions where ngons doesn’t pose a problem when deforming things? (Disclaimer: I’m asking as a relatively newcomer to Blender and 3D.)
@@mixchief what happens when deforming ngons is that you might have some visual weirdness, but if it's somewhere you don't really notice for whatever reason then who cares?
@@seemysight I remember, 2005, when I learned Maya, everything was triangulated. Even during the modeling process itself. I don’t think quad modeling had become de facto back then. :)
Your channel has been one of the biggest improvement to my workflow. I spent 3 years learning the quad workflow, to do many things that could be done better with ngons and booleans. Now, my models have improved an insane amount thanks to your videos, so I just want to give a huge thanks!
Quads are required in many professional industries like film, game industries. I worked for a outsourcing company in game industry and I know that. Back in 2015 or 2016(too long ago can't remember), I did some props for some games. Their requirements were that you must submit both high poly and low poly, for each low poly, the triangle count was limited to 3k with +/- 5 as tolerance(not as low count as possible). For high poly, you need all quads and on top of that, they required good topology flow since they wanted to do some tweaks later in their own studio, so keep good topology flow is what they truly want. Also, most of the time, design phase has done before modeling department comes in, it is done in 2d and by concept art department. If modeling people want to change something or improve the design, they must communicate with lead, or supervisor and manager. In large projects, people normally don't do that. So maintaining a good topology flow is a required skill in those industries. As for quads, if your topo is good, you can make things all quads very easily.
I have never done this type of Ngon based hard surface modeling... just discovered your tutorials and it is like a whole new world opened to my mind! Amazing. Thank you!
In the Ngon modeling method, different levels of bevel can be achieved by using a second bevel modifier with weight method instead of angles option and later controlling the 'mean bevel weight' for edges, this way we can control the bevels.
From my understanding, you want quads or tris due to how normals act as well as just texturing a model. Sure if you are doing a simple texture in Substance painter it's whatever, but complex textures, you'd want quads to have that square checkered pattern on unwrap. So in the end you want to retopologize your model or clean it up so you don't have n-gons. It's ok to work with at the start. Cause I know majority of the game engines out there turn your models into tris, but if they are in quads it makes it easier and the lighting on the model looks 10x better.
Watching this video I found out that I know little about both ways, and thanks to you now I know that I reaaaally need to learn more about topology. I usually model chaotically between the two workflows depending on what I modeled but I never really took the time to understand topology. Thanks Josh!
And with the ngon workflow you can assign the bevel width on each edge by setting a crease or bevel weight, and you can use a custom bevel profile to get custom bevel shapes.
I used to create levels for quake 2 and unreal tournament 20 years ago. Simple cubes etc. The first model in this video is much more logical for me 😊 It's also how I'm learning blender now.
I think the point is: they don't need retopo. Unreal will deal with flat surfaces and split them perfectly into tris. Check Josh's old videos. He's doing lots of Boolean cleanup. The only reason to retopo is to sudivide for detail shots in keyshot. I also still prefer quad process, but I also boolean and ngon and then just use the weld modifier, knife tool and few loops to get clean. The reason is, that I model for visualisation like Tim Zarki and I always sudivide into oblivion for high quality detail renderings. I'm a designer by craft and at work I use alias automotive. I only blender for fun in the evening.
@@teahousereloaded hopefully the other game engines catch up to Unreal in that respect. The reason being is, Unreal's design philosophy is that you're carving out space in a finite environment. Meaning, you'll never see a true giant sandbox in Unreal. But in general, I am new to modeling.
Those would be good issues that maybe Josh or someone else detailed a bit more in-depth, with practical examples, as that appears to be a potential hurdle, still, in the ngon-workflow. (I’m still new to things 3D so this confuses me.)
@@mixchief Sadly this is a quite comprehensive topic. I suggest to learn quad modelling that you look at the older tutorials from this channel. Also the "chair tutorial" from blender guru (Andrew price) is a gem as it explains quite clearly how to redirect edgeflow. You don't have to model in quads, but it's necessary to understand how to so you don't get confused if you run into problems.
Absolutely agree, i've always been a quad workflow guy since day one, because that was how i was taught, and i still to be honest simply because that's what i do automatically. But i've come to learn that it really doesn't matter any more, especially now we have a decent hardened/weighted normals workflow in Blender, the only caveat i would add, is that while triangulating the model will usually sort the topology out with no issues, occasionally if your triangles are too long and thin it can cause issues in many engines, so while you don't need to turn ngons into quads, try to make your ngons evenly distributed so when they're triangulated they make decent sized triangles (as close to right angle as possible).
@@JoshGambrell oh and yes you're right there are some engines out there that hate ngons, mainly indie ones like gameguru, but they're far and few between, and not worth worrying about unless you're specifically making assets for them.
Imho, the real question is: A - modelling more slowly with Subsurface, Quads and Curves getting a good topology right away (but with less flexibility on modifications)? B - or model quickly with Ngons and Booleans but then, when the model is finished, DO A RETOPOLOGIZATION in order to deliver models accepted by everyone and for every need (for any sort of texturing, deform, animation ...)? I think the answer lies somewhere in between: if you learn to model with the two systems, you will speed up your workflow but above all you will be able to model EVERYTHING (and not just robots for snotchildren) and for every market need. You will be able to model following blueprints and reference images, automotive, people and characters as well as environments and vehicles specifically hard surface, but with the advantage of being able to texturize them without problems.
IMHO Model HP with quads and subdiv for baking and texturing. For games - retopo with n-gons to reduce tris count For animation - retopo with quads You should do what you need for your project and share as is if you want. If target is to make universal asset for public, then do all. Or even multiple game-ready retopos with different tris count.
I just recently started doing hard surface modeling with BoxCutter and Hard Ops in Blender, which I'm enjoying a lot, but I came from 3DS Max and the quad-based workflow, and I've already run into situations where remembering quad tricks has helped solve a few hard surface NGON puzzles. Definitely good to know both.
Great video Josh! Really glad I watched this. I am a new Blender user but a long-time 3D modeler. Blender (and you specifically) has really opened my eyes to the N-Gon workflow. I think this is because booleans are so much more stable and usable now than they ever were before and this workflow is now making so much more sense to use. I am currently using this workflow for a hard surface project and I am really loving it. Thanks so much for the amazing content!!
I haven't got any problems with ngons in general (horses for courses, right?) but I think you're maybe giving the quad modelling a little bit of a short shrift. Yes, for this shape, ngons are going to be a little easier to handle. But for something with curvier shapes, quad topo is going to give you smoother output-- you're not cutting holes in spheres with a bunch of ngons. What you're doing with that bevel modifier on the ngon mesh is creating your control loops, and you can use a bevel modifier on the quad topo to create them if you want, rather than doing it destructively like you're doing (the ngon mesh has the advantage that you don't have to use bevel weight, because you're basically telling it what edges to bevel based on the ngon you make; you do have to be careful about bevelling to prevent the creation of poles if you want to subdiv afterwards.) Or, you could edge crease instead, and skip making all those control loops, and then you're going to find it much easier to do future editing. With what you start with, though, creases aren't going to be great, for the same reason that you notice pinching: you're not paying any attention to non-planar 3 and 5 poles in the quad mesh, which kinda defeats the purpose of the quad topo anyways. After you fix those poles, creasing will be just fine as a way to control the sharpness of the edge.
@@JoshGambrell Did you link the right tutorial? He has 1 ngon through most of it, then eventually 3 adjacent ngons, describing a flat section rather than a curved section, and it creates pinching (even with the forgiving preview-- use a matcap to see better.) Eventually, he applies the subsurf to use more ngons-- and yes, any topo problem can be solved by throwing enough verts at it, but the issue is the same as you complain about here with your quad mesh: you create something that is a giant pain to work with.
Yeah I have an object with many curves subtle pieces and the Ngons might just work and have no visible issues or really visible, kinda randomly (subtle curves).
Now put both of them up for sale or even free in a non-Blender only market with labeling indicating "all quads" or ""has ngons." Which one will get more downloads? As a side note: retopo on an ngon object to make it quads will take longer to create the whole asset than just doing it with quads from step one.
That is all very relative to the final output of your model, is it going to get subdivided at render time? deformed? There is nothing wrong with Ngons as long as you are aware when to and when not to use them. I have worked on many films, and everything tends to get subdivided at render time so that polygons never look faceted. The only reason is that nowadays, directors and movies are changing constantly and models/props that were supposed to be seen from far away, all of the sudden are seen much closer, etc...there's many variables nowadays on how movies are made.Concept art is a different story, and so is game assets, personal work, etc. so there is no really wrong/right ( there kind of is :D ) as long as you know when to use them. my 2 cents! Good video
I first learned the All-Quads workflow, but with avoiding Proximity Loops at all times: I use the Edge Crease ([Shift]+[E]) and Mark Sharp ([Ctrl]+[E]) and Clear Sharp ([Ctrl]+[E]) features instead of proximity loops to change the sharpness of edges on the subdivided mesh without changing the original non-subdivided mesh.
Depends on the intention. What defines "better" is it's functionality in the given environment. If you hand an animator something made of ngons, on a feature, your looking for a new job, and that's even if your lead allows it to get that far lol What's better is that you have an understanding of both. There is no better just an understanding of when and where to use either or.
Sometimes I casually return to watching these n-gon workflow videos just to feel validated knowing that the headaches caused by the traditional quads workflow are just a thing of the past. It's kinda mesmerizing.
Understanding the basics is always so important for creativity, freedom, and flexibility. Especially, when I think about node-based modeling and simulations known from Houdini and Blender you need to know how things behave, otherwise, you can't solve your task. The life of a designer and artist is not about applying the known effects on something and growing your effects library in your memory. It's about knowing how things behave, so you can achieve everything.
As somebody who started with 3D using SketchUp and then learnt Blender and got tired of quads (sorry but I hate having to worry so much about quads when I'm modelling instead of simply making things and flowing with it), this has impressed me (the first part made in 30 seconds). For modelling things for architecture this could be a game changer. I'm going to check that Boxcutter thing right now!
@@JoshGambrell I'm quite sure it will! In Blender I felt like a mathematician having to deal with tiles and planning ahead all the time where to put or cut the tiles. And I understand they are important for things like games or deformations, but they have no meaning for static image or video (where the objects don't deform). I'll check your video about it right now :).
3-D printed stuff modelled with ngons and Boolean operators , while character design using sub-serf and loop cuts, knife cuts for the base mesh. I am a retired engineer who does this as a hobby so I don't have the issue of having to produce game assets to professional standards. As long as it will animate it does the job. Static items like furniture seem OK done either method. Nice tutorial :)
@@AlienTux Yes I usually find myself cleaning off some of the extra topology the slicer added using the old school tools like a file or side-cutters :)
I find it interesting that subsurf workflow is defined as completely separate from boolean workflow. I've always used a subsurf first, either set to simple or catmull with supporting loops, then added bool and bevel modifiers after to remove hard edges where the cutting happens. The booleans interpolate better when intersected with subsurf loops, I've found.
@@carlomdlf The same as what? Just cutting straight into ngons or large quads? Not necessarily. I've seen awful shading explode over the surface when bools just triangulate a large quad as best they can. Adding support loops seems to correct it. Or force the surrounding faces back into a flatly shaded ngon, at least.
Clean topology with quads allow for sub division, which can't be done with n‐gons, also you may experience shading errors even with triangulation. Quads are cleaner overall. If you want faster way of modeling with quad topology- prepare predefined surfaces to stitch the model with equal edge counts.
I really like the video, speaking as someone who has spent literally months trying to work with subdiv quad topology it can really really suck. At 20:30 when he's talking about programs not accepting ngons, ZBrush is one of them, so it needs to be triangulated when importing, which is better to do in Blender.
it's worth pointing out that you can absolutely use ngons with subsurf so long as they are on a flat plane and protected from deformation like any other area. an ngon, when subdivided, turns into quads- it'll just create a bunch of poles- which don't matter as long as they are on a flat surface and don't need to deform.
For fun I tried learning subsurface modeling in C4d in around 2014, but it was so daunting having to put in all this effort to make something that looked relatively basic, and you better not make any mistakes because it's destructive! I quickly learned to appreciate boolean modeling, but the mesh quality wasn't very good since the quality didn't scale well to combine over 5 shapes, but maybe that's because my poly count was too low (Volume Builder + ZRemesher wasn't around at the time). I started learning Blender last week and I already had my mind blown by the Edge Crease tool before knowing about modeling plugins
Thanks for the insight, this will help in future practice but again I like to think that before going the fast way one should learn the slow one. Ultimately you are right, understanding topology is the way to do any kind of modeling
I think that it really depends on if you want to create some static mesh, probably even hard-surface, or if you try to create something you want to deform with an armature later, I guess. I model for 3d printing and for animation, with very different workflows. Booleans are great for hard surface, but for animation later, you probably will have to refine the mesh afterwards. Quad is "correct" if you want to deform and use SubD afterwards. You should always have in mind how the model is used afterwards.
I've realized for a few years that the boolean (boxcutter) has a lot of potential when it comes to modeling. I've already met people who call it wicked and either I'm totally wrong or the others aren't ready for it yet. I'm pretty sure that such a procedure will be the future and maybe then the programs like blender will automatically adapt a bool to the quad afterwards. I also find it much more entertaining to quad the ngons afterwards than to mess around with quads so that they get into the desired shape.
Great video! Can't believe how much time I've been wasting creating simple models with the quad workflow when you laid it out this way. Definetly going to be picking up hard ops and box cutter this week, and maybe one of the blenderbros tutorials :)
Getting back into 3d modelling with blender since 2013/2014. It's cool to see how far the application has come. I'm seeing a lot of tutorials are teaching by the n-gon workflow over the sub-d workflow. I think the technology for the ngon workflow just wasn't there 10 years ago. So much faster.
Great video! Several year ago, when I started to learn 3d modeling, always had problems with quad-subsurf workflow, especially with high quad count of the result. Good that this video showed up in feed when I decided to revisit 3d modeling. Maybe I'll have a better run at it now. Just need to find some hardware at reasonable price.
Just out of pure curiosity, why use proximity loops to sharpen up the subsurface mesh? Why not something like: Edge select > Select sharp edges > 30 degrees ish > bevel weight 100 > bevel modifier by weight with a profile of 90?
Great vid, thanks. Being a noob, I’m still struggling with a lot of this. So, if I’m doing archviz and I have a large flat wall with endless loop cuts to create windows and doors, should I go to the trouble of dissolving the unnecessary edges? Doing so reduces the poly count but results in lots of ngons. It’s a slightly different question than which technique I should use to create the openings in the first place, which is addressed in the video.
Quad/subdiv workflow is best for animating characters, where the mesh will be constantly deformed. For vehicles, architecture, anything that is not biological, hardsurf/ngon workflow will do a better job at lower tricount, all you have to do is make sure you have good normals for good shading.
Not just animation actually: in vfx, your ngon model would be rejected instantly. To be fair the quad version presented in the video would be rejected as well, but not as badly because at least it's fixable. Kind of.
Would it be rejected because it might cause issues with other quad based software in the pipeline or the renderer? I wonder if it would be rejected for UE4 or other game engine based VFX work...
Usually when exporting through any format for vfx, render, etc., your model is triangulated anyway. I suppose that when you work with ngons, you just have make sure that you don't have any convex ngons.
@@andrewwelch5017 It would be rejected because in vfx they want even quad for sims, destruction, deformations, displacement maps, etc. So ngons are a no-go, and the quad model presented in the video doesn't has quad, but not even quads.
I usually start designing in "I don't care about topo" mode and when the shape is fine I'll retopo it. Isn't this the way they do it in industry as well? Because I think you'll run into trouble with texturing stretches if you don't have an evenly distributed mesh. I also learned you shouldn't use subdivision to "shape" a mesh (like you did here - basically create a round edge out of a sharp base one), but just to smooth it out. But I guess this a rule you can really bend.
Oh no, I’m not talking about game assets. I’m aiming for 3D short movies. Somewhere between game and cgi / photo realism like Andrew Hodgson is doing. But from him I learned he’s just retopoing stuff concept artists, who don’t care about topo, giving him as part of a pipeline.
Interesting video Josh. As I have mentioned in some comments about your previous videos, I think people get way too hung up about ngons. If your render engine supports ngons and that is all your are rendering in, then I say go for it. Booleans have been a part of 3D for a very long time now. Seriously, adding control loops and all that farnarkeling about? No thanks. It's a bit like saying that turbocharged engines in cars are evil, just because! Each to their own of course, but the Boxcutter/HOps workflow is one that saves a literally countless amount of time. Mind you, the docs are not always up to scratch. Anyway, yes we should always strive for good topology and shading, but within reasonable limits. If it renders well, then it's good. My old LightWave days taught me the virtues of clean topology, but it is always a trade-off. Cheers, Stefan
I really do not like the subd workflow, but it is not the only quad workflow. My preferred workflow is quad w/ manual bevels for low poly, ngon for high polys as they don't touch the game engine. I have never understood when people say quads, tris or ngons are "bad" except when talking to a beginner. They're all tools in the modeller's arsenal. Good vid though.
Thank you for making this video. For proof of concept or creative/artistic purposes, yeah Ngons definitely cut it. But using them regularly for your assets can be a problem, as this sort of editing is more destructive and harder to manipulate after the fact. In case you want to reuse assets or geometry you have created in the past (which you should to simplify workflow), quads and loops are more friendly on this regard.
so after watch this and your video about triangulate in blender, can we use boleans and after that triangulate and will be ok as a game asset? I'm asking because im use to model with quads and i find difficult to create many hard surfaces using only quads without have the need to subdivide more
I can't figure out what option this is: when I'm using boxcutter, sometimes the shape I create has a red background/outline (and works like i expect) and sometimes it has a grey or blue background/outline with low opacity and works in some weird way I can't figure out. Help!
the quad thing comes in nice for speed or sweeping organic shapes. but i think a combo of tech is really the best. the last step for game assets before import into engine should be a triangulate algo. so it all goes into tris anyway. using extra vis edges to lead the algos into a better solution is a good thing to do before you run triang...
Hi Josh (or whoever read this), I'm sorry my English in advance. Could you recommend me an article or video link about what is ngon, quad and I think I heard something about trid? or tri?. I understood (or maybe misunderstood) that quads is a subdivision in polygons compound of 4 vertex. am I'm right? Ngon... not sure by now. And tri or trid... could be something about triangles? 3 vertex? Thanks
I remember that I used to listen closely to my teachers and then after time went on, I noticed more and more that they were wrong on many things. Triangles bad, ngons bad, booleans bad, if two meshes touches each other they should be merged into one mesh. Videos like these are great to show how wrong the teachings of people who don't work in the industry anymore can be. Everything in 3D is a triangle at the end and if it looks good, job's done.
I definitely agree with your opinion that you should not get into non-quad modeling before you have a really good comprehension for clean geometry. Personally there's very few situations where I would personally use the boolean workflow, a lot of it has to do with my preference for larger bevels and that I think it's good practice to always try to push yourself to create something with quads to expand your capabilities. I think the main area where you would get a lot of good use out of the boolean workflow would be with hard surface objects which have been milled with drills, think about something like the top receiver of a desert eagle.
Super helpful. It's been bothering me for awhile now trying to understand why some of the tutorials I've done leave ngons in their model since it's been hammered into me when I learned basic 3D in school a long time ago that I'm only supposed to use quads. I've also been meaning to find this boxcutter tool after I finished another project or two. I've just switched into Blender from Maya so I'm trying to kind of ease into using Blender before I do start using that tool. I still do have some questions as to how ngons would affect the model in the future, but I trust that this workflow is okay since I've seen it so much in recent years (and in many tutorials). Thanks for the informative video!
Josh thanks for your tutorials man but i have some serious questions about your techniques in box cutter and hard ops I am a game modeler and it appears that these plugins and ngons are not good for game modeling cuz every model you make with this technique has a lot of weird looking ngons and cleaning them up takes massive time so what is the benefits of these add-ons in game resolution modeling? Of course its good for making a highpoly model but even then you need to manually retopo that cuz that topology you made is useless so am i wrong about my statement?! Do this boolean based add-ons really useful in game asset modeling?!!
They are fine for game asset modeling. Important thing when working is you know what you are working *for*. If I know it will be a game asset, I take my poly distribution and topology more seriously so I know it will be as little of a hassle as possible to optimize for game engines. We are actually working on an in-depth game asset course covering this, since it’s really hard to explain everything in a single video. It requires specific technique and study.
@@JoshGambrell Thanks for the reply Josh looking forward to see that specific course But can i ask when that gonna publish and where?Here on the youtube? Can we know some more exact info?!
Yep, Gumroad, our website, blender market. Pricing will be reasonable compared to content offered. We’ll make sure to announce it ahead of time, if not on release day!
I am on the newer side to modelling, and I have no idea what tools you're using right out of the gate. What are those amazingly fast blue and pink boxes you're making that allow you to so easily cut and bevel that initial model? I don't recognize that tool at all, and I haven't seen any other RUclips tutorial using them. Where do I get that for my Blender, or are they vanilla and I've just never seen anyone using them? Please, someone help, because I don't even know where to start with googling that sort of thing.
@@JoshGambrell Thanks! I'm looking them up and they seem to be on 2.8 and not 2.9. Am I confused here, or will I have to revert to 2.8 for hard object modelling if I want to use these tools?
~4:15, you say the most important thing is to understand topology. There are a few facets to topology that I can think of. Could you be more specific? What about understanding topology are you referring to?
Being a game developer I always say - if it looks righ and animates right - it is right :-). And if you can edit it easier / faster - go for it. I had to "unlearn" this all-quads approach some time ago, and now I use whatever gives me the results faster.
You should explain how you set your interface that way where you get to just box select over things and things happen. This is the first time I’m ever seeing someone do that. Please respond on this. Because it caused me to just close out on the first tutorial I watched from you.
You make valid points in this video but the starting shape that you then recreate with quads ( or try to) is really bias towards your workflow. I could start the other way around from a curvy sub D shape, something like Arrimus 3d would do in an obscure looking 10 years old max, try and recreate it with bool operations today and arrive to the conclusion that quads are still the BETTER way, and produce more visually interesting, full of life, hard surface, futuristic sci fi results. I understand that this workflow is more fun, refreshing and efficient but like everything else if you rely too much on it like you are doing, it ends up affecting design decisions heavily. You may not admit it but it shows, if you take a step back from your work, or glance at your video thumbnails. Don't get me wrong, that is not necessarily a bad thing if you are happy with the result, I am just saying that it has a clear impact that must be considered when picking the right tool for the job.
Yes definetly. Those people who throw shit at quads are assuming that a 3d artist needs to model only rounded boxes and cylinders with some rounded boxes and cylinders cuts here and there. And of course quads "are only for VFX and characters". According to them, there's nothing existing in between a zbrush character and a cube with a couple of cool random cuts. I'm not a vfx artist or a character guy, but I use quads every freakin' day to build furniture , architectural details and such... mostly for archviz, product visualization and VR. N-gons are just bad in 90% of cases. Of course if you only do this kind of boxy stuff and don't need proper Uv mapping, LODs or game engine work, you can get away with ngons.
i ever use quads workflow... i studied this 10 years ago with maya and ok, is difficult to understand topology and make complicate shapes with only quads sometimes, but if you want to export to zbrush to make a high poly from a blockout model is better to have your base made with quads to avoid artifacts... after this you can use tris for the low poly model and baking, but with quads at blockout model probably is slower but you have a perfect base to make the rest of the workflow without headaches...
I only use higher dimensional n-hedra & time-crystals & Lie Groups from the E8 quasicrystal lattice, but this tutorial was very helpful… to my friend. He thanks you.
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Friendship broken with quads. Now Ngons is my best friend.
Same here. I learned only last week: quads for stretchable, malleabe models like character, and n-gons for hard-surfaced models only if you want shapes fixed and unchanged.
Before last week, I used to do quads on all hard-surfaces and avoid n-gons for wrong reasons. Now I welcome n-gons for hard-surfaced models.
First, I would like to say that creating the hard surface with boolean workflow instead of the classic quad box modelling, it's faster allows more iterations and changes during development and art direction and I encourage everyone to implement in your workflow. But the final deliverable should always be in quads. That means you should manual/automatic and fix your hard surface. That's what the VFX industry requires at least at the top-level studios. All hard surface models are subdivided at final renders and usually change different software too. Like take your model in Houdini for simulations or rigged in Maya, painted in Mari /SubstancePainter/3d coat etc. My advice as a 3d art director to modellers should be to always learn to have a clean topology as a deliverable. Having a boolean can help for concept designs, build something quick etc but the final should be cleaned up.
VFX is a completely different area, so yes, quads are a must. I disagree about the final deliverable model being in quads. If it is a static hard surface game asset with proper triangulation then it is a waste of time. I have delivered game ready models using ngons by simply triangulating them properly. The software will never know whether you modeled in ngons/quads because everything will be triangles. Houdini is for simulations, and rigging requires careful topology as well. Neither of these are purely hard surface. I am talking specifically about hard surface models only without the exceptions of BFX/organics, where it obviously won’t work
@@JoshGambrell yup i will agree on that for game models if you properly controlled triangulate them, so those area's won't screw over in the engine. it's a really good to go and big time saver for unrequited topology.
It seems then booleans is for sketching in 3D. It seems about right 👍🏽
@@JoshGambrell you delivered "game ready models using n-gons"? This is a bad habit the finished model should be quads and triangles. This is to avoid guesswork when game engines triangulate models.
@@codewarrior145 he said he triangulated them before they were delivered...
Josh when I first started watching him: "Ngons are Terrible! Only keep them when you absolutely have to!"
Josh Now: "NGons are the greatest"
We were all brainwashed at one point LOL
I can relate to this xD
@@JoshGambrell na ngons are still shitty for every pro
@@PrefoX point me to a pro that only models in quads please.
Even the guns in modern video games does not, characters are the only exception, and thats only around animated areas.
@@JoshGambrell I am learning Blender, coming from Solidworks and going through the Blender Guru tutorials you are talking about like the chair one.
I am trying to replicate all the furniture products I've done throughout the years in SW to Blender so I can do photorealistic models (contemporary products, some with upholstery as well), and then sell them on something like CG trader so I can earn some passive income with products that I had already done in 3D.
For this purpose, my main question as a noob is - is this a viable way to make the 3Ds assets that I want to sell or will I have problems with clients in the future because of "bad topology" and what not? Thank you in advance ;)
I agree with him. Back when I started learning 3d 12 years ago, using quadrilateral workflow was a necessity and there weren't any tutorials to teach or preach otherwise. If something saves your time in 3D, learn it with all your might; I had to figure this out the hard way trying to Sub-D my way through abominations that looked nothing like the reference I was modelling them on until I decided to actually actively study edgeflow.
Understanding Box modelling, curves modelling, Nurbs or even metaball modelling are valuable as a skill, but one should always remember that they are core skills that are to be learnt gradually and not be held as something of a dogmatic practice that is mocked or memed to moon.
If you enjoy Boolean workflow, take your time with it while still making steady progress in traditional modelling techniques, the plethora of information on them and their absolute dominance in certain industry makes them a distant yet important goal. I find this channel a breathe of fresh air for hard surface enthusiasts and wish we as a community (*cough blender cult *cough) should embrace the prospect of ingenuity in application rather than mindless debate and discussion on what reigns supreme.
"Once you understand the rules
, you can bend them very easily"
Totally agree. Great video.
The key people need to understand is that quads are only essential with meshes you're going to deform. I'd avoid ngons on a character, but for hard surface it's a non-issue
@reezlaw: Nice clarification. Is that a hard rule or would there be exceptions where ngons doesn’t pose a problem when deforming things? (Disclaimer: I’m asking as a relatively newcomer to Blender and 3D.)
@@mixchief what happens when deforming ngons is that you might have some visual weirdness, but if it's somewhere you don't really notice for whatever reason then who cares?
@@mixchief if you want any deformation with predictable results you should use quads and triangulate any ngon
@@seemysight I remember, 2005, when I learned Maya, everything was triangulated. Even during the modeling process itself. I don’t think quad modeling had become de facto back then. :)
Does it not effect texturing?
Your channel has been one of the biggest improvement to my workflow. I spent 3 years learning the quad workflow, to do many things that could be done better with ngons and booleans. Now, my models have improved an insane amount thanks to your videos, so I just want to give a huge thanks!
Happy to help!
9:01 instead of extruding and filling , enable f2 addon and when selecting the vertex on the corner and press f will fill it with the next 2 vertex
or press 4, when machin3 tools is enabled.
Ngons can have issues with auto LODs in game engines. If you are using the asset in games without LODs, or making the load yoursel, it should be fine.
I was always taught that anything other than quads was taboo in any situation. Thank you so much for this.
Quads are required in many professional industries like film, game industries. I worked for a outsourcing company in game industry and I know that. Back in 2015 or 2016(too long ago can't remember), I did some props for some games. Their requirements were that you must submit both high poly and low poly, for each low poly, the triangle count was limited to 3k with +/- 5 as tolerance(not as low count as possible). For high poly, you need all quads and on top of that, they required good topology flow since they wanted to do some tweaks later in their own studio, so keep good topology flow is what they truly want. Also, most of the time, design phase has done before modeling department comes in, it is done in 2d and by concept art department. If modeling people want to change something or improve the design, they must communicate with lead, or supervisor and manager. In large projects, people normally don't do that. So maintaining a good topology flow is a required skill in those industries. As for quads, if your topo is good, you can make things all quads very easily.
I have never done this type of Ngon based hard surface modeling... just discovered your tutorials and it is like a whole new world opened to my mind! Amazing. Thank you!
In the Ngon modeling method, different levels of bevel can be achieved by using a second bevel modifier with weight method instead of angles option and later controlling the 'mean bevel weight' for edges, this way we can control the bevels.
From my understanding, you want quads or tris due to how normals act as well as just texturing a model. Sure if you are doing a simple texture in Substance painter it's whatever, but complex textures, you'd want quads to have that square checkered pattern on unwrap. So in the end you want to retopologize your model or clean it up so you don't have n-gons. It's ok to work with at the start. Cause I know majority of the game engines out there turn your models into tris, but if they are in quads it makes it easier and the lighting on the model looks 10x better.
Watching this video I found out that I know little about both ways, and thanks to you now I know that I reaaaally need to learn more about topology.
I usually model chaotically between the two workflows depending on what I modeled but I never really took the time to understand topology.
Thanks Josh!
And with the ngon workflow you can assign the bevel width on each edge by setting a crease or bevel weight, and you can use a custom bevel profile to get custom bevel shapes.
I used to create levels for quake 2 and unreal tournament 20 years ago. Simple cubes etc. The first model in this video is much more logical for me 😊 It's also how I'm learning blender now.
I'd be interested in seeing you retopologize one of these Ngon workflow models.
I think the point is: they don't need retopo. Unreal will deal with flat surfaces and split them perfectly into tris.
Check Josh's old videos. He's doing lots of Boolean cleanup.
The only reason to retopo is to sudivide for detail shots in keyshot.
I also still prefer quad process, but I also boolean and ngon and then just use the weld modifier, knife tool and few loops to get clean.
The reason is, that I model for visualisation like Tim Zarki and I always sudivide into oblivion for high quality detail renderings.
I'm a designer by craft and at work I use alias automotive. I only blender for fun in the evening.
@@teahousereloaded hopefully the other game engines catch up to Unreal in that respect. The reason being is, Unreal's design philosophy is that you're carving out space in a finite environment. Meaning, you'll never see a true giant sandbox in Unreal.
But in general, I am new to modeling.
@@Orphanlast all the other engines are equal with unreal on that respect. the real issues come with any deformations, UVs, and LODs.
Those would be good issues that maybe Josh or someone else detailed a bit more in-depth, with practical examples, as that appears to be a potential hurdle, still, in the ngon-workflow. (I’m still new to things 3D so this confuses me.)
@@mixchief Sadly this is a quite comprehensive topic. I suggest to learn quad modelling that you look at the older tutorials from this channel. Also the "chair tutorial" from blender guru (Andrew price) is a gem as it explains quite clearly how to redirect edgeflow.
You don't have to model in quads, but it's necessary to understand how to so you don't get confused if you run into problems.
Absolutely agree, i've always been a quad workflow guy since day one, because that was how i was taught, and i still to be honest simply because that's what i do automatically. But i've come to learn that it really doesn't matter any more, especially now we have a decent hardened/weighted normals workflow in Blender, the only caveat i would add, is that while triangulating the model will usually sort the topology out with no issues, occasionally if your triangles are too long and thin it can cause issues in many engines, so while you don't need to turn ngons into quads, try to make your ngons evenly distributed so when they're triangulated they make decent sized triangles (as close to right angle as possible).
You’re absolutely right. I usually chop the ngons into bits so I avoid that.
@@JoshGambrell oh and yes you're right there are some engines out there that hate ngons, mainly indie ones like gameguru, but they're far and few between, and not worth worrying about unless you're specifically making assets for them.
Imho, the real question is:
A - modelling more slowly with Subsurface, Quads and Curves getting a good topology right away (but with less flexibility on modifications)?
B - or model quickly with Ngons and Booleans but then, when the model is finished, DO A RETOPOLOGIZATION in order to deliver models accepted by everyone and for every need (for any sort of texturing, deform, animation ...)?
I think the answer lies somewhere in between: if you learn to model with the two systems, you will speed up your workflow but above all you will be able to model EVERYTHING (and not just robots for snotchildren) and for every market need. You will be able to model following blueprints and reference images, automotive, people and characters as well as environments and vehicles specifically hard surface, but with the advantage of being able to texturize them without problems.
IMHO
Model HP with quads and subdiv for baking and texturing.
For games - retopo with n-gons to reduce tris count
For animation - retopo with quads
You should do what you need for your project and share as is if you want.
If target is to make universal asset for public, then do all. Or even multiple game-ready retopos with different tris count.
@@severgun exactly one is not better than the other its useful for different applications
I just recently started doing hard surface modeling with BoxCutter and Hard Ops in Blender, which I'm enjoying a lot, but I came from 3DS Max and the quad-based workflow, and I've already run into situations where remembering quad tricks has helped solve a few hard surface NGON puzzles. Definitely good to know both.
For sure!
This was a question I had.. Why do quads matter if you're not bending it? .... they don't.
Great video Josh! Really glad I watched this. I am a new Blender user but a long-time 3D modeler. Blender (and you specifically) has really opened my eyes to the N-Gon workflow. I think this is because booleans are so much more stable and usable now than they ever were before and this workflow is now making so much more sense to use. I am currently using this workflow for a hard surface project and I am really loving it. Thanks so much for the amazing content!!
Thanks Mike, really glad it helps!
I haven't got any problems with ngons in general (horses for courses, right?) but I think you're maybe giving the quad modelling a little bit of a short shrift. Yes, for this shape, ngons are going to be a little easier to handle. But for something with curvier shapes, quad topo is going to give you smoother output-- you're not cutting holes in spheres with a bunch of ngons. What you're doing with that bevel modifier on the ngon mesh is creating your control loops, and you can use a bevel modifier on the quad topo to create them if you want, rather than doing it destructively like you're doing (the ngon mesh has the advantage that you don't have to use bevel weight, because you're basically telling it what edges to bevel based on the ngon you make; you do have to be careful about bevelling to prevent the creation of poles if you want to subdiv afterwards.) Or, you could edge crease instead, and skip making all those control loops, and then you're going to find it much easier to do future editing. With what you start with, though, creases aren't going to be great, for the same reason that you notice pinching: you're not paying any attention to non-planar 3 and 5 poles in the quad mesh, which kinda defeats the purpose of the quad topo anyways. After you fix those poles, creasing will be just fine as a way to control the sharpness of the edge.
We made a video on organics with bools/ngons already. Check this out: ruclips.net/video/sViHcoMOHWs/видео.html
@@JoshGambrell Did you link the right tutorial? He has 1 ngon through most of it, then eventually 3 adjacent ngons, describing a flat section rather than a curved section, and it creates pinching (even with the forgiving preview-- use a matcap to see better.) Eventually, he applies the subsurf to use more ngons-- and yes, any topo problem can be solved by throwing enough verts at it, but the issue is the same as you complain about here with your quad mesh: you create something that is a giant pain to work with.
Yeah I have an object with many curves subtle pieces and the Ngons might just work and have no visible issues or really visible, kinda randomly (subtle curves).
Now put both of them up for sale or even free in a non-Blender only market with labeling indicating "all quads" or ""has ngons." Which one will get more downloads? As a side note: retopo on an ngon object to make it quads will take longer to create the whole asset than just doing it with quads from step one.
Another thing you can do to reduce time if you're going for the quad/subd workflow, is to retopologize on top of the ngon/boolean model.
That is all very relative to the final output of your model, is it going to get subdivided at render time? deformed? There is nothing wrong with Ngons as long as you are aware when to and when not to use them. I have worked on many films, and everything tends to get subdivided at render time so that polygons never look faceted. The only reason is that nowadays, directors and movies are changing constantly and models/props that were supposed to be seen from far away, all of the sudden are seen much closer, etc...there's many variables nowadays on how movies are made.Concept art is a different story, and so is game assets, personal work, etc. so there is no really wrong/right ( there kind of is :D ) as long as you know when to use them. my 2 cents! Good video
The information here checks out. Good shit man. You just brought my workflow out of the dark ages.
I first learned the All-Quads workflow, but with avoiding Proximity Loops at all times:
I use the Edge Crease ([Shift]+[E]) and Mark Sharp ([Ctrl]+[E]) and Clear Sharp ([Ctrl]+[E]) features instead of proximity loops
to change the sharpness of edges on the subdivided mesh
without changing the original non-subdivided mesh.
Depends on the intention. What defines "better" is it's functionality in the given environment. If you hand an animator something made of ngons, on a feature, your looking for a new job, and that's even if your lead allows it to get that far lol What's better is that you have an understanding of both. There is no better just an understanding of when and where to use either or.
Sometimes I casually return to watching these n-gon workflow videos just to feel validated knowing that the headaches caused by the traditional quads workflow are just a thing of the past. It's kinda mesmerizing.
Understanding the basics is always so important for creativity, freedom, and flexibility. Especially, when I think about node-based modeling and simulations known from Houdini and Blender you need to know how things behave, otherwise, you can't solve your task. The life of a designer and artist is not about applying the known effects on something and growing your effects library in your memory. It's about knowing how things behave, so you can achieve everything.
As somebody who started with 3D using SketchUp and then learnt Blender and got tired of quads (sorry but I hate having to worry so much about quads when I'm modelling instead of simply making things and flowing with it), this has impressed me (the first part made in 30 seconds). For modelling things for architecture this could be a game changer. I'm going to check that Boxcutter thing right now!
You’ll love it!
@@JoshGambrell I'm quite sure it will! In Blender I felt like a mathematician having to deal with tiles and planning ahead all the time where to put or cut the tiles. And I understand they are important for things like games or deformations, but they have no meaning for static image or video (where the objects don't deform). I'll check your video about it right now :).
@@almarma We have plenty of Hard Ops and Boxcutter tutorials, you'll have a packed schedule lol
3-D printed stuff modelled with ngons and Boolean operators , while character design using sub-serf and loop cuts, knife cuts for the base mesh. I am a retired engineer who does this as a hobby so I don't have the issue of having to produce game assets to professional standards. As long as it will animate it does the job. Static items like furniture seem OK done either method. Nice tutorial :)
and here I am cleaning the topology off of my 3d printable models...
@@AlienTux Yes I usually find myself cleaning off some of the extra topology the slicer added using the old school tools like a file or side-cutters :)
I find it interesting that subsurf workflow is defined as completely separate from boolean workflow. I've always used a subsurf first, either set to simple or catmull with supporting loops, then added bool and bevel modifiers after to remove hard edges where the cutting happens. The booleans interpolate better when intersected with subsurf loops, I've found.
wouldn't booleans work the same? just faces are smaller so shading artifacts are less noticable
@@carlomdlf The same as what? Just cutting straight into ngons or large quads? Not necessarily. I've seen awful shading explode over the surface when bools just triangulate a large quad as best they can. Adding support loops seems to correct it. Or force the surrounding faces back into a flatly shaded ngon, at least.
Clean topology with quads allow for sub division, which can't be done with n‐gons, also you may experience shading errors even with triangulation. Quads are cleaner overall. If you want faster way of modeling with quad topology- prepare predefined surfaces to stitch the model with equal edge counts.
I really like the video, speaking as someone who has spent literally months trying to work with subdiv quad topology it can really really suck. At 20:30 when he's talking about programs not accepting ngons, ZBrush is one of them, so it needs to be triangulated when importing, which is better to do in Blender.
it's worth pointing out that you can absolutely use ngons with subsurf so long as they are on a flat plane and protected from deformation like any other area. an ngon, when subdivided, turns into quads- it'll just create a bunch of poles- which don't matter as long as they are on a flat surface and don't need to deform.
Yep, just hit it with a crease and you're good to go.
For fun I tried learning subsurface modeling in C4d in around 2014, but it was so daunting having to put in all this effort to make something that looked relatively basic, and you better not make any mistakes because it's destructive! I quickly learned to appreciate boolean modeling, but the mesh quality wasn't very good since the quality didn't scale well to combine over 5 shapes, but maybe that's because my poly count was too low (Volume Builder + ZRemesher wasn't around at the time). I started learning Blender last week and I already had my mind blown by the Edge Crease tool before knowing about modeling plugins
Thanks for the insight, this will help in future practice but again I like to think that before going the fast way one should learn the slow one.
Ultimately you are right, understanding topology is the way to do any kind of modeling
Excellent! I agree NGONS have their place and can significantly speed up your work especially for stills. Great demonstration
This channel is so underrated!!!!!!!!!!
also for adding supporting loops the best way for vanilla users is to use a 2 edge bevel with profile on 1
thank u !!
I think that it really depends on if you want to create some static mesh, probably even hard-surface, or if you try to create something you want to deform with an armature later, I guess. I model for 3d printing and for animation, with very different workflows. Booleans are great for hard surface, but for animation later, you probably will have to refine the mesh afterwards. Quad is "correct" if you want to deform and use SubD afterwards.
You should always have in mind how the model is used afterwards.
Agreed, but that is why the title is “hard surface” because there are limitations ;)
Even for animations, if the model doesn't bend, I don 't see the problem.
I've realized for a few years that the boolean (boxcutter) has a lot of potential when it comes to modeling. I've already met people who call it wicked and either I'm totally wrong or the others aren't ready for it yet. I'm pretty sure that such a procedure will be the future and maybe then the programs like blender will automatically adapt a bool to the quad afterwards. I also find it much more entertaining to quad the ngons afterwards than to mess around with quads so that they get into the desired shape.
Thanks for this Josh, it has opened up a quicker way for me to model. Thanks again.
i like the "hit it with this", "hit it with that"... sounds very professional :D
Oh!! Than You for clarifying this mystery and misunderstanding about ngons.
Great video! Can't believe how much time I've been wasting creating simple models with the quad workflow when you laid it out this way. Definetly going to be picking up hard ops and box cutter this week, and maybe one of the blenderbros tutorials :)
Thanks man! Let us know if you need any help, and you’ll love them addons!
Nice Josh, My early understanding of not using ngons was in animation if the model must bend stretch ngon will break.
Love the vid,your point id so valid,What i use blender for ngons really dont bother me
thats the beauty of blender. You could easily do the first step and clean it up in case you want to do a subd on it.
Getting back into 3d modelling with blender since 2013/2014. It's cool to see how far the application has come. I'm seeing a lot of tutorials are teaching by the n-gon workflow over the sub-d workflow. I think the technology for the ngon workflow just wasn't there 10 years ago. So much faster.
Great video! Several year ago, when I started to learn 3d modeling, always had problems with quad-subsurf workflow, especially with high quad count of the result. Good that this video showed up in feed when I decided to revisit 3d modeling. Maybe I'll have a better run at it now. Just need to find some hardware at reasonable price.
Just out of pure curiosity, why use proximity loops to sharpen up the subsurface mesh? Why not something like: Edge select > Select sharp edges > 30 degrees ish > bevel weight 100 > bevel modifier by weight with a profile of 90?
You can do either or.
Fun fact :
Josh actually hearts every comment !
Great vid, thanks. Being a noob, I’m still struggling with a lot of this. So, if I’m doing archviz and I have a large flat wall with endless loop cuts to create windows and doors, should I go to the trouble of dissolving the unnecessary edges? Doing so reduces the poly count but results in lots of ngons. It’s a slightly different question than which technique I should use to create the openings in the first place, which is addressed in the video.
Well, I'm sold! I was never great at topology in subsurf but for my purposes super clean quad meshes aren't necessary anyway.
Quad/subdiv workflow is best for animating characters, where the mesh will be constantly deformed. For vehicles, architecture, anything that is not biological, hardsurf/ngon workflow will do a better job at lower tricount, all you have to do is make sure you have good normals for good shading.
And with a lot of newer tools added in 2.9 Blender, its become really simple to fix normals, and shading stuff is honestly a lot easier as well.
Not just animation actually: in vfx, your ngon model would be rejected instantly. To be fair the quad version presented in the video would be rejected as well, but not as badly because at least it's fixable. Kind of.
Would it be rejected because it might cause issues with other quad based software in the pipeline or the renderer? I wonder if it would be rejected for UE4 or other game engine based VFX work...
Usually when exporting through any format for vfx, render, etc., your model is triangulated anyway. I suppose that when you work with ngons, you just have make sure that you don't have any convex ngons.
@@andrewwelch5017 It would be rejected because in vfx they want even quad for sims, destruction, deformations, displacement maps, etc. So ngons are a no-go, and the quad model presented in the video doesn't has quad, but not even quads.
Thanks for making this one Josh. This answered so many questions I have been having recently about this subject. Thanks again for the great content.
Thanks, happy to help
Thanks for explaining and comparing these!
I usually start designing in "I don't care about topo" mode and when the shape is fine I'll retopo it. Isn't this the way they do it in industry as well?
Because I think you'll run into trouble with texturing stretches if you don't have an evenly distributed mesh. I also learned you shouldn't use subdivision to "shape" a mesh (like you did here - basically create a round edge out of a sharp base one), but just to smooth it out. But I guess this a rule you can really bend.
No need to retopo if you handle shading/triangulation properly (assuming for game assets)
Oh no, I’m not talking about game assets. I’m aiming for 3D short movies. Somewhere between game and cgi / photo realism like Andrew Hodgson is doing. But from him I learned he’s just retopoing stuff concept artists, who don’t care about topo, giving him as part of a pipeline.
Interesting video Josh. As I have mentioned in some comments about your previous videos, I think people get way too hung up about ngons. If your render engine supports ngons and that is all your are rendering in, then I say go for it. Booleans have been a part of 3D for a very long time now. Seriously, adding control loops and all that farnarkeling about? No thanks. It's a bit like saying that turbocharged engines in cars are evil, just because! Each to their own of course, but the Boxcutter/HOps workflow is one that saves a literally countless amount of time. Mind you, the docs are not always up to scratch. Anyway, yes we should always strive for good topology and shading, but within reasonable limits. If it renders well, then it's good. My old LightWave days taught me the virtues of clean topology, but it is always a trade-off.
Cheers,
Stefan
I really do not like the subd workflow, but it is not the only quad workflow. My preferred workflow is quad w/ manual bevels for low poly, ngon for high polys as they don't touch the game engine. I have never understood when people say quads, tris or ngons are "bad" except when talking to a beginner. They're all tools in the modeller's arsenal. Good vid though.
Can I bake down all the Bools so its one solid piece for 3D printing? Thanks for the input.
Can you uv and texture the left one and use painter? Also, you can use creases instead of adding edges.
I would like to know this as well
Yea, you need to triangulate it properly though.
@@JoshGambrell what if this is for VFX and not video game, would you recommend quad method for surfacing?
Yes, quads distributed evenly for VFX, almost always
@@JoshGambrell thank you, kinda of disappointed this method is so fast
Thank you for making this video. For proof of concept or creative/artistic purposes, yeah Ngons definitely cut it. But using them regularly for your assets can be a problem, as this sort of editing is more destructive and harder to manipulate after the fact. In case you want to reuse assets or geometry you have created in the past (which you should to simplify workflow), quads and loops are more friendly on this regard.
so after watch this and your video about triangulate in blender, can we use boleans and after that triangulate and will be ok as a game asset? I'm asking because im use to model with quads and i find difficult to create many hard surfaces using only quads without have the need to subdivide more
Do you have a video where you turn such a ngon model into the game-ready model to be textured in substance?
still waiting for this answer too
i really wonder this too!
Way more work with sub-d quads. Awesome video. Thanks.
I can't figure out what option this is: when I'm using boxcutter, sometimes the shape I create has a red background/outline (and works like i expect) and sometimes it has a grey or blue background/outline with low opacity and works in some weird way I can't figure out. Help!
you went over many useful tools I could use thanks for the vid
"If you triangulate the mesh that has N-gons, it should work with any game engine anyways". This is simillar to humans discovering fire.
the quad thing comes in nice for speed or sweeping organic shapes. but i think a combo of tech is really the best. the last step for game assets before import into engine should be a triangulate algo. so it all goes into tris anyway. using extra vis edges to lead the algos into a better solution is a good thing to do before you run triang...
thank you so much! you are such an awesome teacher!
Hi Josh (or whoever read this), I'm sorry my English in advance.
Could you recommend me an article or video link about what is ngon, quad and I think I heard something about trid? or tri?.
I understood (or maybe misunderstood) that quads is a subdivision in polygons compound of 4 vertex. am I'm right?
Ngon... not sure by now.
And tri or trid... could be something about triangles? 3 vertex?
Thanks
What addon does those cuts? Hardops? Where I can just draw in a shape and cut that out of the object?
I remember that I used to listen closely to my teachers and then after time went on, I noticed more and more that they were wrong on many things. Triangles bad, ngons bad, booleans bad, if two meshes touches each other they should be merged into one mesh. Videos like these are great to show how wrong the teachings of people who don't work in the industry anymore can be. Everything in 3D is a triangle at the end and if it looks good, job's done.
"I don't want you to model with me, I want you to watch me"
He's onto me
I definitely agree with your opinion that you should not get into non-quad modeling before you have a really good comprehension for clean geometry. Personally there's very few situations where I would personally use the boolean workflow, a lot of it has to do with my preference for larger bevels and that I think it's good practice to always try to push yourself to create something with quads to expand your capabilities. I think the main area where you would get a lot of good use out of the boolean workflow would be with hard surface objects which have been milled with drills, think about something like the top receiver of a desert eagle.
Super helpful. It's been bothering me for awhile now trying to understand why some of the tutorials I've done leave ngons in their model since it's been hammered into me when I learned basic 3D in school a long time ago that I'm only supposed to use quads. I've also been meaning to find this boxcutter tool after I finished another project or two. I've just switched into Blender from Maya so I'm trying to kind of ease into using Blender before I do start using that tool. I still do have some questions as to how ngons would affect the model in the future, but I trust that this workflow is okay since I've seen it so much in recent years (and in many tutorials). Thanks for the informative video!
1:37 what was that red tool's name and how do I use it?
Very helpful Josh! Great for people starting out and for continued best practice!
Josh thanks for your tutorials man but i have some serious questions about your techniques in box cutter and hard ops
I am a game modeler and it appears that these plugins and ngons are not good for game modeling cuz every model you make with this technique has a lot of weird looking ngons and cleaning them up takes massive time so what is the benefits of these add-ons in game resolution modeling?
Of course its good for making a highpoly model but even then you need to manually retopo that cuz that topology you made is useless so am i wrong about my statement?!
Do this boolean based add-ons really useful in game asset modeling?!!
I believe that his point was that it doesn't usually matter if you have Ngons. Just convert to triangles before exporting to a game engine.
They are fine for game asset modeling. Important thing when working is you know what you are working *for*. If I know it will be a game asset, I take my poly distribution and topology more seriously so I know it will be as little of a hassle as possible to optimize for game engines. We are actually working on an in-depth game asset course covering this, since it’s really hard to explain everything in a single video. It requires specific technique and study.
@@JoshGambrell Thanks for the reply Josh looking forward to see that specific course
But can i ask when that gonna publish and where?Here on the youtube?
Can we know some more exact info?!
Yep, Gumroad, our website, blender market. Pricing will be reasonable compared to content offered. We’ll make sure to announce it ahead of time, if not on release day!
非常有价值的一课，非常感谢，值得反复观看和思考🥰
Awesome video, very well presented.
I am on the newer side to modelling, and I have no idea what tools you're using right out of the gate. What are those amazingly fast blue and pink boxes you're making that allow you to so easily cut and bevel that initial model? I don't recognize that tool at all, and I haven't seen any other RUclips tutorial using them. Where do I get that for my Blender, or are they vanilla and I've just never seen anyone using them? Please, someone help, because I don't even know where to start with googling that sort of thing.
Hard ops and boxcutter, im using them in most of my vids and they’re usually in the description
@@JoshGambrell Thanks! I'm looking them up and they seem to be on 2.8 and not 2.9. Am I confused here, or will I have to revert to 2.8 for hard object modelling if I want to use these tools?
~4:15, you say the most important thing is to understand topology. There are a few facets to topology that I can think of. Could you be more specific? What about understanding topology are you referring to?
Being a game developer I always say - if it looks righ and animates right - it is right :-). And if you can edit it easier / faster - go for it. I had to "unlearn" this all-quads approach some time ago, and now I use whatever gives me the results faster.
Spot on!
You should explain how you set your interface that way where you get to just box select over things and things happen. This is the first time I’m ever seeing someone do that. Please respond on this. Because it caused me to just close out on the first tutorial I watched from you.
Is there an issue while texturing and UV unwrap.
Thanks
valuable lesson once again
Quad workflow is super important for VFX though right? Things need to animate well, subdivide well, be sculptable, Transformable, etc.
You make valid points in this video but the starting shape that you then recreate with quads ( or try to) is really bias towards your workflow. I could start the other way around from a curvy sub D shape, something like Arrimus 3d would do in an obscure looking 10 years old max, try and recreate it with bool operations today and arrive to the conclusion that quads are still the BETTER way, and produce more visually interesting, full of life, hard surface, futuristic sci fi results. I understand that this workflow is more fun, refreshing and efficient but like everything else if you rely too much on it like you are doing, it ends up affecting design decisions heavily. You may not admit it but it shows, if you take a step back from your work, or glance at your video thumbnails. Don't get me wrong, that is not necessarily a bad thing if you are happy with the result, I am just saying that it has a clear impact that must be considered when picking the right tool for the job.
Yes definetly. Those people who throw shit at quads are assuming that a 3d artist needs to model only rounded boxes and cylinders with some rounded boxes and cylinders cuts here and there.
And of course quads "are only for VFX and characters". According to them, there's nothing existing in between a zbrush character and a cube with a couple of cool random cuts.
I'm not a vfx artist or a character guy, but I use quads every freakin' day to build furniture , architectural details and such... mostly for archviz, product visualization and VR.
N-gons are just bad in 90% of cases.
Of course if you only do this kind of boxy stuff and don't need proper Uv mapping, LODs or game engine work, you can get away with ngons.
i ever use quads workflow... i studied this 10 years ago with maya and ok, is difficult to understand topology and make complicate shapes with only quads sometimes, but if you want to export to zbrush to make a high poly from a blockout model is better to have your base made with quads to avoid artifacts... after this you can use tris for the low poly model and baking, but with quads at blockout model probably is slower but you have a perfect base to make the rest of the workflow without headaches...
what about for 3d print and slice programs is it okay with ngons?¿
I only use higher dimensional n-hedra & time-crystals & Lie Groups from the E8 quasicrystal lattice, but this tutorial was very helpful… to my friend. He thanks you.
This will be interesting thanks!
I am always going to be working with ngons now thanks saves so much time
Fantastic video Josh, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us all again :)
Great video!