I also don't really view this as a product to be used on each daily cup of coffee... But more as a tool for grinder calibration. It helps you understand which setting gives you the best yield of grounds in the correct size for a particular extraction method.
I feel you. I do have an almost-cheap one. The real question is: is it capable of grind to same size particles? because mine does. It is even antique looking, some grains fly away sometimes, but it serves me well. I can brew a great espresso and that's all matters.
I’ve owned the Kruve sifter for several years and for most of that time I used it sparingly on a weekend when I had ample time to tinker. Over the last year, I’ve come to use it every day and come to the conclusion Kruve really missed the mark when it came to recommending 400-800 microns for pour over coffee. That leads to far too much waste and time spent sifting. I use 200-1400 microns. I don’t have the money for a $2-3K grinder and have a Barratza Encore and a OE Lido 2 hand grinder and I end up getting 20-30% of the grind above that 1400 micron size which is a lot of wasted surface area. I regrind it with the hand grinder a few times until all the large particles pass through the 1400 micron sieve and then tap the whole sifter several times on the counter which will dust 2-3 grams of fines down. I happen to like having fines in my coffee for texture but most will be stuck to the larger particles and not fall through the sifter. Sieving at 200 microns and losing 5% of the total weight of the coffee you grind produces an incredibly forgiving cup that doesn’t stop up a filter or produce astringency. I would love to see this method used to compare a Baratza Encore + Kruve combination to something higher end to see how much one’s able to hack the lower end setup. I spend about an extra minute sifting and regrinding every morning. It really doesn’t take too much time.
I have a home made coffee sieve. I put a tea pot sieve inside a jar that it fits in, throw my grinds in, put the lid on and give it a shake. Gets all the fine powder like grinds out. Works amazing for my French Press. 21grams and it'll sieve out about 1g of powder. Didn't cost a cent because I already had the bits at home!
I use a cheap cheap grinder with relatively high quality burs but still it produces so many fines, I also use the sieve from a teapot and the fines do not go to waste as I can reuse them on an aeropress, which surprisingly, produces the better tasting coffee, albeit with 80°C water
It's an excellent tool to use to dial in your grinders. That's what we use it for. I found that my coaser settings was all wrong and was able to improve my extraction because I realized that my bulk grinder is more accurate and even as you go finer.
There's an extensive discussion about particle size distribution in Illy's book on espresso. He suggests that espresso in particular requires a mixture of large and small particles to allow flow and proper extraction respectively. Of course, flow is not a problem when it comes to drip/steep coffee, so this product may very well be suitable in those areas. He also explains why sifting is generally a poor method for measuring particle size distribution of ground coffee (especially for finer particle sizes), but the superior alternatives are obviously unavailable to consumers or even most professional baristas/coffee enthusiasts. Good video.
Hey James, would love to hear more of your thoughts on "fines" and how they affect brewing. Thanks a bunch for the review - keep the great vids coming!
I think they basically contribute some bitterness to the cup which for a coffee your brain kind of expects. I did have a Chemex Coffee once at an espresso shop and it was so smooth it was more tea like than coffee which I thought was interesting but it didn't seem like a coffee for me. Wasn't bad it's just not something I'd want all the time. Especially with milk drinks where the coffee will be too smooth I think.
@@BensCoffeeRants Eh, sounds like you're just not familiar with any kind of filtered coffee. All such coffee comes out very clean when done properly. You're right that fines contribute bitternes, though. They also clog up filters, making brew times long.
@@edwardchester1 The chemex brew the cafe made was just exceptionally smooth and tea like. Maybe it was their grinder or their coffee and technique. I am more familiar with espresso but I've done chemex and aeropress etc
Another thing to keep in mind with 400 vs 800 micron is that surface area of a sphere is squared(4*pi*r^2) so 2x difference is diameter means 4x difference in surface area for extraction. Admittedly though that's not a fully true statement since coffee has a good amount of porosity so the true surface area difference between a 400 and 800 micron particle coffee may not be that big.
James, I’ve been using the Kruve for a couple mouths now and I gotta say, for immersion (French press) it’s fantastic. I use the 300 um and it sifts about 10% out in less than a minute, smoothing the brew a lot. It’s like getting a pour over taste with the control I love from French press coffee. I also use a large pored kitchen sieve to get my boulders out, and re-grind this 10% back through my hand grinder, using the 300 um sieve last. This seems to reduce grind waste. Pro tip, I “smack” the kruve on my Palm (“moderately hard”). This seems to force the particles to fall off the bottom of the sieve, allowing more to get through faster. Thanks for the review!
My biggest issue is they don't have anyway to add on a third sieve to this thing. For everything I know about hydraulics in a pressurized system where your median particle size is in a distribution is very important. (Weirdly the are parallels in hydrofracking and espresso brewing.) Skew effects flow along with size. Anyways, I'm a geology student and am familiar with scientific sieves. So naturally I found three small low quality sieves on ebay (65, 200, and 800 um) for $25 to use to make my own espresso grind blend at home for much cheaper than upgrading my blade grinder. Waste from this process can be used in my moka pot. I got this low end espresso machine as a gift and want to see what I can maximize from it. Because a lack of funds hasn't stopped me from being insufferable before and it won't stop me now.
I would have really enjoyed this being used as a sort of scientific comparison of different grinders, grind 50 grams what percentage of fines did you get out. Just a thought.
I did not need to know this exists. My family is already about to put me in cuckcoos nest because I'm mixing baking soda and epson salt in our distilled water.
if the screen sizes are correct it could work for making hash but only if the mesh is the right size(bigger then 25 microns-125 microns), or you could use it for coffee.
Agree with James: for morning coffee before work, it just takes too much time, and the waste is quite a lot (Kalita 155,15 grams, used 800-400 sieve as recommended by Kruve, and Baratza Virtuoso 16/40). If it's Saturday evening, and there's no time pressure , Kruve it is.
The same argument holds for espresso machines. Far, far too much work to use a sub $5000 espresso machine to make everyday morning shots or lattes. There are just too many variables to monitor: bean variety, roast, freshness, grind size, amount, tamp, heat, pressure of extraction, portafilter size, time of brew, volume of water to bean, type of milk and quality/temp of froth. Yet James does speak favourably to making everyday espresso drinks. The Kruve filters help "dial in" machine or manual grind settings for each bean variety and is quite tedious for every morning's cup. That said, skip the espresso machines and Kruve until the weekend or later in the day for refining coffee drinking.
@@joepangean6770 Very true. Though to be fair, James does point out that he doesn't have an espresso machine at home and views it as a work/hobby thing, not a daily routine thing.
Incase anyone thinks these are stupid expensive but wants one, go on Amazon and get yourself some stainless steel micron screens with gaskets from the brewing equipment, then stack them in a container. If you're crafty, it's an easy task. Go to the container store or hobby lobby.. you're bound to find the perfect fit somewhere. You can alternatively buy a roll of each screen for like $30... so for less than the cost of this device you can make several of these and give them as gifts. Support the brand if you are able/want to, but this is just an alternative if you can't.
This may remove fines, but what about boulders? Don't they matter? And exactly what "micron screens" are you going to get at a craft store? I doubt they actually conform to any scientific mesh porosity standard.
@@MikeTrieu What? I think you got a bit confused and might want to re read that. You'd be removing both... because you'd be creating a tray for both. I went over that comment several times and can not understand how you came to that. You'd either be using brewing screens and stacking them in a container (from the container or craft store), or buying screens by the sheet or roll on Amazon to make your own (which you would need to attach to a frame to stack). Either way, Kruve screens don't translate lol. Totally different and they're definitely not accurate. I own a Kruve myself and use far more expensive sieves at work, which is why I made this comment.
Thank you for this! Quite aside from this product, your mention of true scientific quality sieves sparked a question of some real import to me; what about reviews of top end grinders testing particle uniformity with sieves! Even better, testing with sieves, and then measuring and comparing extractions against these results. I spent a good amount of time, and if anyone's doing such testing, they don't appear to be sharing it! Any thoughts? Would it be practical for you to do it? Would it be of any real value to anyone other than to satisfy my curiosity? Thanks!
I’ve used a sifter before when I was using one of those Krups electric grinders…And it did seem to help. Once I got a decent grinder and then tried coffee, with or without the sifter, it didn’t seem to really make much of a difference.
the thing is I don't like the idea of throwing away coffee that was produced with such care... the only possibility is maybe competition? IDK, since I switched from Hario Skerton to Zassenhaus Quito I am amazed how good is this grinder...
One more thing that would be an interesting review is that Automatic pour over that you had on one of your vlogs. How do you like it? Pros? Cons? Besides that i love all of your videos and i get excited every time you post a new one!
I have the big set of 12 screens. As you say, I do not see any reason to use it for everyday use, but when I adjust my grinder, I think it's gold worth, as it makes it easier to find the right size of the ground coffee. I have a Lido 3 hand grinder and it's not always so easy to find back after adjusting between different brewers.
Lol this is essentially a small classifier. We use larger versions of these for gold panning. I may purchase one of these to use as a more portable gold classifier.
This looks like a really interesting product. Do you think it could be used to verify a grinder is working properly? I have a vario which hit a rock and have had doubts about it for some time. I am wondering if this set could prove the grind is off or at least give a datum point for a new grinder?
Hmmm...I looked at this for a very different reason. Seems something like this could be a good teaching tool on grind settings for different brewing methods.
Haha, I also watch a lot of guitar videos on RUclips, and get them in my feed all the time. I thought this was some new guitar pick judging from the thumbnail before I watched the video haha.
It's always interesting to see different perspectives on products based on the reviewers' routines/knowledge/expertise/daily use. I often find myself coming up short in this way in my own day job as a tech reviewer. Here, this review really seems to miss the mark both when James talks about not using this with a cheap grinder and when talking about 400-800 being too wide a particle size range. So used, is james, to using high end gear and producing top-tier coffee that he can't see the broader picture. One of these at a cost of £80 for a 5 sieve version combined with a cheap grinder still gives you far more control and opportunity to remove fines than a grinder that costs many times that. Meanwhile, yes, you absolutely could easily integrate this into your daily routine without too much fuss or meaningful waste. A few grams of fines (filtered-out boulders can be re-ground) isn't making the difference for anyone.
Love this review; I'd never heard about the screens being annoying before so that is good to know about. It's still probably the most accessible product like it (or only product in its category intended for easy home use). I have it on my wish list but it's not high priority. I do sift sometimes, but use a tea strainer just to get *some* of the fines out. I find that is enough to get some clarity to the coffee and really bring out the flavor notes, if I'm having trouble getting them. I do this rarely, and have a Lido 3 (for reference as to my grind quality). It would be interesting to experiment with a more precise tool than the tea strainer so I can set the size of fines to throw away, and to take some boulders out. I do hear that some people sift with these, then add some back in because with such a uniform particle size they claim the flavor gets flat, so they add a bit of fines and boulders back in to add a little depth. I agree about using the money to upgrade a grinder instead if you're using a blade grinder or
Mike Ouellette I have found that lighter roasts produce more fines in a hand grinder (skreton) than darker roasts. My guess is it is because the lighter roasted coffee is harder to grind. It takes more pressure before it breaks and thus more fines are created. The darker roasted coffee takes less pressure and thus breaks more cleanly. Of course, someone who actually knows something about grinder science, physics etc is welcome to give a better explanation to my experience (theory).
I know lido3 is supposed to be a good hand grinder but some hand grinders or grinders in general are great for one type of grind and then just good or ok for other types. I cant temember but maybe Lido is more of an espresso grinder and you're using it for pour over? James did a comparison between a bunch of hand grinders for espresso and pour over but I forget where the lido stood. Now there's also the 1zpresso brand that's popular. I got a K plus model coming that is supposedly good for pourover and espresso range.
lol I have a cheap burr grinder and use a standard fine kitchen sieve to separate coarse from fine. The coarser stuff for filter and the fines for espresso. Decent budget system, I'd say.
I like to drink espresso and pour over coffee, but it is hard to find a grinder which do both good. So I decided for a espresso grinder and use the fellow shimmy when I want a pour over. For me still better than 2 grinders
I wonder if you could just strap the Kruve to an orbital sander to automate the agitation bit. Might actually make using it more palatable as a daily occurrence rather than just for special occasions. Or, heck, maybe Kruve could come out with their own purpose-built mechanical agitator.
I love dark roasts, but they're very brittle, generating lots of fines even in a decent grinder. Filtering out the fines is critical to get a decent cup of coffee. Right now, I use a sugar sifter, which works fairly well, but sends fines floating around my kitchen.
I started sifting my (pretty sub-optimal mid-range breville burr) grinder because it just wasn't doing a good enough job, but I've since upgraded to a Baratza Vario. From a blind tasting perspective, do you think you could notice the difference between a sifted and non-sifted brew in a pour-over / french press setting? I originally sifted my French Press course grind because it was so inconsistent, and I figured the long immersion nature of the French Press would exacerbate the over-extraction of the fines. I did notice a big difference myself, though I haven't really tried pour-over w/ sifted grinds.
Thanks for doing this review. So, does the Kruve Sifter actually make a cup of coffee taste better or noticeably different? I'm a bit surprised that you didn't make two different brews (one with, one without) and provide some sort of comparison. Yes, a personal subjective test, but isn't better or different taste the end goal here?
Steve Faull it's interesting - I was also hoping for this sort of review when I saw the video come up. But James made a great point - the results you get are fundamentally dependent on how good/bad your grinder is in the first place. And if you have a cheap grinder that's producing A LOT of fines, then really you should just be upgrading instead of tossing out half your grind. It just doesn't seem best suited for its advertised purpose (and arguably, leaving fines in can improve the brew). Still, I agree it would've been nice to see a flavour comparison with something standard like a Baratza Encore or Wilfa.
Yeah, probably not for me. I am an obsessive home enthusiast with two Sette grinders (one for filter, one for espresso). I have burned a fair amount of money on coffee gadgets that produced subjective micro improvements at best. I'll just keep saving for that EK. ;)
Interesting product, when I first heard about the barista who won a world championship using it I kind of wanted one. I was using a cheaper GE burr grinder and it seemed useful. A couple of months ago I upgraded to the Baratza Encore and completely forgot about the Kruve.
Hi - what is your limit for cheap? I am kind of crazy about hand grinders, owning quite a collection spaning from say 100 bucks to thousands .... and there are quite a few very good ones that you can get for 100 - 300 (roughly guessing the range). Its not what I would call cheap .. so thats why I ask where is your limit for that . :)
You know, these sifts could actually be used whether or not a given grinder is creating more uniform ground coffee than another... in a pretty scientific, measurable way. Perhaps worth a video?
Anyone else notice that James has a very different voice in older videos? I thought it was maybe his mic setup at first, but it’s not just that - he has a different cadence and tone. It’s really interesting, I wonder why that is!
Absolutely agree, I have the same set, and its a great tool (though I dont use it for day to day brewing unless I have some great coffee that I really want to make shine :) ). For me the difference of sifted for pour over or espresso seams quite large actually (but I use only 200 micron band - so say 400 - 600 or 600 - 800). One tip for anyone who wants not to throw out any amount of coffee - fines bellow the finest sieve used are great for turkish style, above that there is great espresso band /not giving any numbers as it depends on the tools used for espresso/, and above that another band would be great for pour over (like 500-800?) ... I usually regrind anything coarser and sift it into fractions I want to use... so the outcome is great coffee and no wasted fractions at all :)
Interesting stuff. I've been testing the kruve at home, and while i get rid of lots of fines by sifting, it seems to me that the coffee is too oxidized/"dead" after sifting it for a minute. Might just be a psychological thing, but i seem to like the end result in the cup better when the coffee has the ability to bloom...Opinions on this?
Excellent point. Although we expresso drinkers don't go for the blookm oxidation is still the enemy of coffee. Coffee should be brewed as close to grind time as possible. The increased oxidation created any all that shaking and exposure to more oxygen & time probably offsets any benefits from removing a few fines. JMO; not an expert...
@@cdvax11 Yeah, that's not a thing. There won't be any meaningful extra oxidation just by shaking your grinds around a bit - certainly no more than the faffing around with distribution tools and such like that people do with their puck prep. Probably just the affect of the lower extraction from getting rid of the fines that changes the flavour.
@@jezgiddings I've done it once or twice and it works fine. I think some grinders may clog up if its lower powered. The only issue I could see is that you could get more coffee particles in places you normally wouldn't because its expecting large whole beans put in. It also could affect the quality of grind (maybe positively who knows).
Regrind using the exact same grinder with that known variability? Isn't that the definition of insanity? Seriously, though, you're more likely to just increase your fines than get any appreciable uniformity.
It's also his mic and recording environment. There's some reverberation from the room he's in here. Not a good recording environment. That said, many people who record their voices as a hobby or for a living do end up with a different voice over the years.
can you make a video about flat disk burr grinder vs conical burr grinder? Also, I wanna know about your opinion between the Wilfa Start grinder vs Breville Smart Grinder Pro. Thanks!
I upgraded from the Breville Smart Grinder to a mid/high-range Baratza because I found the flow rate of my pour-overs were being affected by fines, and I have since noticed a decent difference. I enjoyed the Breville for 2 years, so many it was just outliving itself a bit, but that said I definitely can't understate the importance of grind consistency in the pour-over setting especially
Your videos are great, you deserve more viewers. That's indicative of a greater journey of evangelizing great coffee to the commodity coffee industry. I just listened to you on the The Coffee Podcast! Thanks for doing that as well, it was a great listen. Highly recommend to anyone here. James are you doing any events in Seattle anytime soon? :D
Blind test on coffee I believe it's kinda difficult to do blind tests because random people's sensory skills are not that good especially for people with common sour-bitter confusion. It is different though if you test the coffee to people with Q-Grader or R-Grader or something sensorial title like those because their certification is legit enough to prove them as an expert in tasting coffee.
Whilst I think Kruve have made a bit of a rod for their own backs, initially, with too small sieve meshes (excluding coarser grind settings) & slightly unrealistic suggested sieve intervals (high wastage - but this can be mitigated by using larger intervals), some of the points raised seem a little off the mark. I'm not sure there is a burr grinder of any known type that can fit the entire distribution between particles of a given size & those twice that size (producing ~70% in that range would be considered good). What is the sdev. of a ~£130 grinder distribution vs that of a £40-£50 hand grinder?
Huh? They've got sieves that go up as course as whole beans. Were those not available three years ago? As far as intervals, I suppose that's up to personal taste. But they do have complete sets for that very purpose.
@@MikeTrieu At the coarser end of drip grind, you can't even capture 50% between 400 & 1100Kruve (largest stock size), that means a lot of wastage. Kruve sift suggestions are more like sieves x2 apart. They only made the XL sifter sizes (1200/1400/1600) because I asked them to.
I'm confused by this product. Everybody tells me that freshly grinded coffee looses a lot of flavors in minutes. Know using the sifter which takes some minutes, I have perfectly calibrated grains, but I loose so much flavors in the same time... what's the clue, and where's the benefit?
is grind uniformity really that important? I understand the concept but does it really make such a substantial difference to warrant the excessive attention given to it?
In blind taste testing, I prefer the taste of my coffee from the Hario Skerton Pro over the Baratza Vario and the EK 43 for Kalita Wave pour over. Espresso is quite a different matter.
Does anyone make particle sorters to separate coffee by particle size ? Gotta be much harder than laser cell sorting and would be slow but il curious how you’d perceive the difference between brews with more homogeneous but irregular surface areas
why throw away those "unfit" particles? the fines could be used in turkish coffee, and the coarsely ground ones can be cooked to a mirra (a type of syrian coffee), or for a cold brew maybe?
I actually like the idea of this for different coffee. I can grind once and then separate everything into french press, pourover, and espresso/turkish.
You shake it with air, you oxidize your coffee faster! And is very long for a cup of coffee... The price is too high, i prefer buy a good grinder directly... After only 3 months, you lost it in your cupboard...
All these extra tools.. It's getting to point where I can just walk over to a nice coffee shop which uses an expensive machine and come back by the time I would've finished from all the setup
Maybe actually show it in use, how you personally prefer to use it etc. Sure you shake but showing the workflow is normally part of a review. Normally you are so extensive in details and method, this felt phoned in because you needed a video out due to being sent a product. Also, if we like the ABCD coffee's in the current test, will we be able to purchase more of them?
Well, not exactly the same. You'll get rid of the fines, sure, but you'll also be trapping the boulders along with your yield. The point of the Kruve is to isolate that sweet spot.
Hmm, if grain size affects flavour, and too small, and too big particles are undesirable, then does that mean that the very fine grind for espresso makes espresso a bad coffee? Same for French press, it's grains have to be bigger than the medium grains for poured coffee. I dunno, I think that a good coffee is a good coffee, and the different brewing methods just satisfy different kinds of tastes... But I don't have to make a living out of me saying my coffee is better than other other's coffee, so in that case it might make sense to try and invent all sorts of "differences" that aren't truly 100% there :/
its more about the evenness of it. While he specifically compared sizes required for pourover, the same methodology applies to espresso and french press and any other method, you want the particles to be the same size otherwise they all extract and different rates which is uneven and usually results in a bitter or sour cup. Hope this helps!
100% clicked the video because I thought it was a guitar plectrum review. Stayed for the coffee. Subscribed!
Exactly what I thought too, excellent reviews.
lol i clicked cuz I thought it was for weed
Welcome to the rabbit hole 😏
@@jeil5676 you might be able to make hash with the fine filter
Me too lol
I also don't really view this as a product to be used on each daily cup of coffee... But more as a tool for grinder calibration. It helps you understand which setting gives you the best yield of grounds in the correct size for a particular extraction method.
This
"If you're using a cheap hand grinder" -cuts to shot of the exact hand grinder I use... ☹️
I feel you. I do have an almost-cheap one. The real question is: is it capable of grind to same size particles? because mine does. It is even antique looking, some grains fly away sometimes, but it serves me well. I can brew a great espresso and that's all matters.
Dr B what grinder are you using. I’m starting my coffee journey and am looking for a cheap ish grinder.
@@EvanJHawes hario or porlex. Mr. Hoffman has a video on this too though...
@MatchaLatte I'm still there. I don't really have a problem with a Hario. Yeah they aren't consistent but I don't mind that much
I use the same one, its great
I’ve owned the Kruve sifter for several years and for most of that time I used it sparingly on a weekend when I had ample time to tinker. Over the last year, I’ve come to use it every day and come to the conclusion Kruve really missed the mark when it came to recommending 400-800 microns for pour over coffee. That leads to far too much waste and time spent sifting. I use 200-1400 microns. I don’t have the money for a $2-3K grinder and have a Barratza Encore and a OE Lido 2 hand grinder and I end up getting 20-30% of the grind above that 1400 micron size which is a lot of wasted surface area. I regrind it with the hand grinder a few times until all the large particles pass through the 1400 micron sieve and then tap the whole sifter several times on the counter which will dust 2-3 grams of fines down. I happen to like having fines in my coffee for texture but most will be stuck to the larger particles and not fall through the sifter. Sieving at 200 microns and losing 5% of the total weight of the coffee you grind produces an incredibly forgiving cup that doesn’t stop up a filter or produce astringency. I would love to see this method used to compare a Baratza Encore + Kruve combination to something higher end to see how much one’s able to hack the lower end setup. I spend about an extra minute sifting and regrinding every morning. It really doesn’t take too much time.
I have a home made coffee sieve. I put a tea pot sieve inside a jar that it fits in, throw my grinds in, put the lid on and give it a shake. Gets all the fine powder like grinds out. Works amazing for my French Press. 21grams and it'll sieve out about 1g of powder. Didn't cost a cent because I already had the bits at home!
I use a cheap cheap grinder with relatively high quality burs but still it produces so many fines, I also use the sieve from a teapot and the fines do not go to waste as I can reuse them on an aeropress, which surprisingly, produces the better tasting coffee, albeit with 80°C water
It's an excellent tool to use to dial in your grinders. That's what we use it for. I found that my coaser settings was all wrong and was able to improve my extraction because I realized that my bulk grinder is more accurate and even as you go finer.
There's an extensive discussion about particle size distribution in Illy's book on espresso. He suggests that espresso in particular requires a mixture of large and small particles to allow flow and proper extraction respectively. Of course, flow is not a problem when it comes to drip/steep coffee, so this product may very well be suitable in those areas. He also explains why sifting is generally a poor method for measuring particle size distribution of ground coffee (especially for finer particle sizes), but the superior alternatives are obviously unavailable to consumers or even most professional baristas/coffee enthusiasts.
Good video.
Hey James, would love to hear more of your thoughts on "fines" and how they affect brewing.
Thanks a bunch for the review - keep the great vids coming!
I think they basically contribute some bitterness to the cup which for a coffee your brain kind of expects. I did have a Chemex Coffee once at an espresso shop and it was so smooth it was more tea like than coffee which I thought was interesting but it didn't seem like a coffee for me. Wasn't bad it's just not something I'd want all the time. Especially with milk drinks where the coffee will be too smooth I think.
@@BensCoffeeRants Eh, sounds like you're just not familiar with any kind of filtered coffee. All such coffee comes out very clean when done properly. You're right that fines contribute bitternes, though. They also clog up filters, making brew times long.
@@edwardchester1 The chemex brew the cafe made was just exceptionally smooth and tea like. Maybe it was their grinder or their coffee and technique. I am more familiar with espresso but I've done chemex and aeropress etc
Another thing to keep in mind with 400 vs 800 micron is that surface area of a sphere is squared(4*pi*r^2) so 2x difference is diameter means 4x difference in surface area for extraction.
Admittedly though that's not a fully true statement since coffee has a good amount of porosity so the true surface area difference between a 400 and 800 micron particle coffee may not be that big.
Wow, watching your older stuff really shows how much you've grown as a presenter and YT personality.
That’s not James, that’s his deep-voiced twin
Love the hairstyle change at 1:30 lol
Watching in 2022 and so amazed on how James' voice changed over the years.
1.25x the speed James will sound like present-day James. Also, how have I only come across this video now? Haha
Oh the early-day James!
Omg, you're right!
each step in speed is equal to him consuming another double shot
@@jackaw1197 or one fewer double shots the night before
James, I’ve been using the Kruve for a couple mouths now and I gotta say, for immersion (French press) it’s fantastic. I use the 300 um and it sifts about 10% out in less than a minute, smoothing the brew a lot. It’s like getting a pour over taste with the control I love from French press coffee.
I also use a large pored kitchen sieve to get my boulders out, and re-grind this 10% back through my hand grinder, using the 300 um sieve last. This seems to reduce grind waste.
Pro tip, I “smack” the kruve on my Palm (“moderately hard”). This seems to force the particles to fall off the bottom of the sieve, allowing more to get through faster.
Thanks for the review!
My biggest issue is they don't have anyway to add on a third sieve to this thing. For everything I know about hydraulics in a pressurized system where your median particle size is in a distribution is very important. (Weirdly the are parallels in hydrofracking and espresso brewing.) Skew effects flow along with size. Anyways, I'm a geology student and am familiar with scientific sieves. So naturally I found three small low quality sieves on ebay (65, 200, and 800 um) for $25 to use to make my own espresso grind blend at home for much cheaper than upgrading my blade grinder. Waste from this process can be used in my moka pot. I got this low end espresso machine as a gift and want to see what I can maximize from it. Because a lack of funds hasn't stopped me from being insufferable before and it won't stop me now.
I dreamt that I went to a coffee shop and it looked just like that room! Great video 👽
I would have really enjoyed this being used as a sort of scientific comparison of different grinders, grind 50 grams what percentage of fines did you get out. Just a thought.
He has some videos like that
I did not need to know this exists. My family is already about to put me in cuckcoos nest because I'm mixing baking soda and epson salt in our distilled water.
I do the same thing and getting same remarks🤪
My initial thoughts are: why is James reviewing a wood guitar pick?
I’m excited to see what this actually is xD
Damn, James' arms looking buff here!
if the screen sizes are correct it could work for making hash but only if the mesh is the right size(bigger then 25 microns-125 microns), or you could use it for coffee.
Agree with James: for morning coffee before work, it just takes too much time, and the waste is quite a lot (Kalita 155,15 grams, used 800-400 sieve as recommended by Kruve, and Baratza Virtuoso 16/40). If it's Saturday evening, and there's no time pressure , Kruve it is.
The same argument holds for espresso machines. Far, far too much work to use a sub $5000 espresso machine to make everyday morning shots or lattes. There are just too many variables to monitor: bean variety, roast, freshness, grind size, amount, tamp, heat, pressure of extraction, portafilter size, time of brew, volume of water to bean, type of milk and quality/temp of froth. Yet James does speak favourably to making everyday espresso drinks. The Kruve filters help "dial in" machine or manual grind settings for each bean variety and is quite tedious for every morning's cup. That said, skip the espresso machines and Kruve until the weekend or later in the day for refining coffee drinking.
@@joepangean6770 Very true. Though to be fair, James does point out that he doesn't have an espresso machine at home and views it as a work/hobby thing, not a daily routine thing.
Incase anyone thinks these are stupid expensive but wants one, go on Amazon and get yourself some stainless steel micron screens with gaskets from the brewing equipment, then stack them in a container. If you're crafty, it's an easy task. Go to the container store or hobby lobby.. you're bound to find the perfect fit somewhere. You can alternatively buy a roll of each screen for like $30... so for less than the cost of this device you can make several of these and give them as gifts. Support the brand if you are able/want to, but this is just an alternative if you can't.
This may remove fines, but what about boulders? Don't they matter? And exactly what "micron screens" are you going to get at a craft store? I doubt they actually conform to any scientific mesh porosity standard.
@@MikeTrieu What? I think you got a bit confused and might want to re read that. You'd be removing both... because you'd be creating a tray for both. I went over that comment several times and can not understand how you came to that. You'd either be using brewing screens and stacking them in a container (from the container or craft store), or buying screens by the sheet or roll on Amazon to make your own (which you would need to attach to a frame to stack). Either way, Kruve screens don't translate lol. Totally different and they're definitely not accurate. I own a Kruve myself and use far more expensive sieves at work, which is why I made this comment.
So interesting to see this little piece of Hoffmann history. The background music tho... 😂
Very good this analysis for a clean cup of bright coffee ... I think I will make the investment in good grinder...
Thank you for this! Quite aside from this product, your mention of true scientific quality sieves sparked a question of some real import to me; what about reviews of top end grinders testing particle uniformity with sieves! Even better, testing with sieves, and then measuring and comparing extractions against these results. I spent a good amount of time, and if anyone's doing such testing, they don't appear to be sharing it! Any thoughts? Would it be practical for you to do it? Would it be of any real value to anyone other than to satisfy my curiosity? Thanks!
Check out Socratic Coffee on Insta
Re. Waste: Boulders can be re-ground, flour collected and used for Turkish coffee. 😊
I’ve used a sifter before when I was using one of those Krups electric grinders…And it did seem to help. Once I got a decent grinder and then tried coffee, with or without the sifter, it didn’t seem to really make much of a difference.
2:01 This is now pops on my screen everytime i go an online shopping website
the thing is I don't like the idea of throwing away coffee that was produced with such care... the only possibility is maybe competition? IDK, since I switched from Hario Skerton to Zassenhaus Quito I am amazed how good is this grinder...
One more thing that would be an interesting review is that Automatic pour over that you had on one of your vlogs. How do you like it? Pros? Cons? Besides that i love all of your videos and i get excited every time you post a new one!
I have the big set of 12 screens. As you say, I do not see any reason to use it for everyday use, but when I adjust my grinder, I think it's gold worth, as it makes it easier to find the right size of the ground coffee. I have a Lido 3 hand grinder and it's not always so easy to find back after adjusting between different brewers.
Lol this is essentially a small classifier. We use larger versions of these for gold panning. I may purchase one of these to use as a more portable gold classifier.
This looks like a really interesting product. Do you think it could be used to verify a grinder is working properly? I have a vario which hit a rock and have had doubts about it for some time. I am wondering if this set could prove the grind is off or at least give a datum point for a new grinder?
Hmmm...I looked at this for a very different reason. Seems something like this could be a good teaching tool on grind settings for different brewing methods.
Haha, I also watch a lot of guitar videos on RUclips, and get them in my feed all the time.
I thought this was some new guitar pick judging from the thumbnail before I watched the video haha.
It's always interesting to see different perspectives on products based on the reviewers' routines/knowledge/expertise/daily use. I often find myself coming up short in this way in my own day job as a tech reviewer. Here, this review really seems to miss the mark both when James talks about not using this with a cheap grinder and when talking about 400-800 being too wide a particle size range. So used, is james, to using high end gear and producing top-tier coffee that he can't see the broader picture. One of these at a cost of £80 for a 5 sieve version combined with a cheap grinder still gives you far more control and opportunity to remove fines than a grinder that costs many times that. Meanwhile, yes, you absolutely could easily integrate this into your daily routine without too much fuss or meaningful waste. A few grams of fines (filtered-out boulders can be re-ground) isn't making the difference for anyone.
I agree. Besides, one can save up the different grind sizes in different containers, and adapt one's brewing method accordingly.
I use coco powder dispenser, just to sieve out the smallest stuff. :)
Not ideal, but considering the prices, it's pretty cool.
I've tried lots of different sieves... but this gadget sure seems more convenient for experimenting. I don't sieve anymore, though...
This will be very helpful for grinder shootouts
Love this review; I'd never heard about the screens being annoying before so that is good to know about. It's still probably the most accessible product like it (or only product in its category intended for easy home use). I have it on my wish list but it's not high priority. I do sift sometimes, but use a tea strainer just to get *some* of the fines out. I find that is enough to get some clarity to the coffee and really bring out the flavor notes, if I'm having trouble getting them. I do this rarely, and have a Lido 3 (for reference as to my grind quality). It would be interesting to experiment with a more precise tool than the tea strainer so I can set the size of fines to throw away, and to take some boulders out. I do hear that some people sift with these, then add some back in because with such a uniform particle size they claim the flavor gets flat, so they add a bit of fines and boulders back in to add a little depth.
I agree about using the money to upgrade a grinder instead if you're using a blade grinder or
Mike Ouellette I have found that lighter roasts produce more fines in a hand grinder (skreton) than darker roasts. My guess is it is because the lighter roasted coffee is harder to grind. It takes more pressure before it breaks and thus more fines are created. The darker roasted coffee takes less pressure and thus breaks more cleanly.
Of course, someone who actually knows something about grinder science, physics etc is welcome to give a better explanation to my experience (theory).
I know lido3 is supposed to be a good hand grinder but some hand grinders or grinders in general are great for one type of grind and then just good or ok for other types. I cant temember but maybe Lido is more of an espresso grinder and you're using it for pour over? James did a comparison between a bunch of hand grinders for espresso and pour over but I forget where the lido stood. Now there's also the 1zpresso brand that's popular. I got a K plus model coming that is supposedly good for pourover and espresso range.
lol I have a cheap burr grinder and use a standard fine kitchen sieve to separate coarse from fine. The coarser stuff for filter and the fines for espresso. Decent budget system, I'd say.
I like to drink espresso and pour over coffee, but it is hard to find a grinder which do both good. So I decided for a espresso grinder and use the fellow shimmy when I want a pour over. For me still better than 2 grinders
If I watch five James Hoffmann videos a day, how many days until I've seen them all?
Interesting to see how faryou have come in the "polish" of videos.
I wonder if you could just strap the Kruve to an orbital sander to automate the agitation bit. Might actually make using it more palatable as a daily occurrence rather than just for special occasions. Or, heck, maybe Kruve could come out with their own purpose-built mechanical agitator.
I love dark roasts, but they're very brittle, generating lots of fines even in a decent grinder. Filtering out the fines is critical to get a decent cup of coffee. Right now, I use a sugar sifter, which works fairly well, but sends fines floating around my kitchen.
Wouldn’t grinding coarser balance it out or am I wrong?
I started sifting my (pretty sub-optimal mid-range breville burr) grinder because it just wasn't doing a good enough job, but I've since upgraded to a Baratza Vario. From a blind tasting perspective, do you think you could notice the difference between a sifted and non-sifted brew in a pour-over / french press setting?
I originally sifted my French Press course grind because it was so inconsistent, and I figured the long immersion nature of the French Press would exacerbate the over-extraction of the fines. I did notice a big difference myself, though I haven't really tried pour-over w/ sifted grinds.
Sifting is great when one is stuck with a blade grinder, a home sieve is enough to get the finest grounds for an espresso
Thanks for doing this review. So, does the Kruve Sifter actually make a cup of coffee taste better or noticeably different? I'm a bit surprised that you didn't make two different brews (one with, one without) and provide some sort of comparison. Yes, a personal subjective test, but isn't better or different taste the end goal here?
Steve Faull it's interesting - I was also hoping for this sort of review when I saw the video come up. But James made a great point - the results you get are fundamentally dependent on how good/bad your grinder is in the first place. And if you have a cheap grinder that's producing A LOT of fines, then really you should just be upgrading instead of tossing out half your grind. It just doesn't seem best suited for its advertised purpose (and arguably, leaving fines in can improve the brew). Still, I agree it would've been nice to see a flavour comparison with something standard like a Baratza Encore or Wilfa.
Try just removing the top 15% or so for drip & the bottom 15% or so for immersion. There shouldn't be any need to lose a huge amount of the grind.
Yeah, probably not for me. I am an obsessive home enthusiast with two Sette grinders (one for filter, one for espresso). I have burned a fair amount of money on coffee gadgets that produced subjective micro improvements at best. I'll just keep saving for that EK. ;)
Interesting product, when I first heard about the barista who won a world championship using it I kind of wanted one. I was using a cheaper GE burr grinder and it seemed useful. A couple of months ago I upgraded to the Baratza Encore and completely forgot about the Kruve.
Have you noticed a huge change in the amount of particle variation once you switch grinders?
The improvement was like day and night. Set at mid range for pour over the Encore is very consistant.
Would love a review of cheap hand grinders. Interested to know what kind of quality you can get out of them
Hi - what is your limit for cheap? I am kind of crazy about hand grinders, owning quite a collection spaning from say 100 bucks to thousands .... and there are quite a few very good ones that you can get for 100 - 300 (roughly guessing the range). Its not what I would call cheap .. so thats why I ask where is your limit for that . :)
You know, these sifts could actually be used whether or not a given grinder is creating more uniform ground coffee than another... in a pretty scientific, measurable way. Perhaps worth a video?
Anyone else notice that James has a very different voice in older videos? I thought it was maybe his mic setup at first, but it’s not just that - he has a different cadence and tone. It’s really interesting, I wonder why that is!
Can you make a Robur shot taste like a shot from an EK43 by sieving the grinds to a similar particle distribution?
Absolutely agree, I have the same set, and its a great tool (though I dont use it for day to day brewing unless I have some great coffee that I really want to make shine :) ). For me the difference of sifted for pour over or espresso seams quite large actually (but I use only 200 micron band - so say 400 - 600 or 600 - 800). One tip for anyone who wants not to throw out any amount of coffee - fines bellow the finest sieve used are great for turkish style, above that there is great espresso band /not giving any numbers as it depends on the tools used for espresso/, and above that another band would be great for pour over (like 500-800?) ... I usually regrind anything coarser and sift it into fractions I want to use... so the outcome is great coffee and no wasted fractions at all :)
damn james is ripped
Cool😎look like guitar pick
Interesting stuff. I've been testing the kruve at home, and while i get rid of lots of fines by sifting, it seems to me that the coffee is too oxidized/"dead" after sifting it for a minute. Might just be a psychological thing, but i seem to like the end result in the cup better when the coffee has the ability to bloom...Opinions on this?
Excellent point. Although we expresso drinkers don't go for the blookm oxidation is still the enemy of coffee. Coffee should be brewed as close to grind time as possible. The increased oxidation created any all that shaking and exposure to more oxygen & time probably offsets any benefits from removing a few fines. JMO; not an expert...
@@cdvax11 Yeah, that's not a thing. There won't be any meaningful extra oxidation just by shaking your grinds around a bit - certainly no more than the faffing around with distribution tools and such like that people do with their puck prep. Probably just the affect of the lower extraction from getting rid of the fines that changes the flavour.
Why not just regrind the large particles rather than throw them away?
Grinding already ground coffee can damage burr grinders
@@danielopezx01 how?? why???
@@jezgiddings I've done it once or twice and it works fine. I think some grinders may clog up if its lower powered. The only issue I could see is that you could get more coffee particles in places you normally wouldn't because its expecting large whole beans put in. It also could affect the quality of grind (maybe positively who knows).
Regrind using the exact same grinder with that known variability? Isn't that the definition of insanity? Seriously, though, you're more likely to just increase your fines than get any appreciable uniformity.
Oh, *KROOVY*
Not only do you have great content but I love how you film/edit. :)
His voice has changed considerably since then.
It's also his mic and recording environment. There's some reverberation from the room he's in here. Not a good recording environment.
That said, many people who record their voices as a hobby or for a living do end up with a different voice over the years.
can you make a video about flat disk burr grinder vs conical burr grinder? Also, I wanna know about your opinion between the Wilfa Start grinder vs Breville Smart Grinder Pro.
Thanks!
I upgraded from the Breville Smart Grinder to a mid/high-range Baratza because I found the flow rate of my pour-overs were being affected by fines, and I have since noticed a decent difference. I enjoyed the Breville for 2 years, so many it was just outliving itself a bit, but that said I definitely can't understate the importance of grind consistency in the pour-over setting especially
Your videos are great, you deserve more viewers. That's indicative of a greater journey of evangelizing great coffee to the commodity coffee industry. I just listened to you on the The Coffee Podcast! Thanks for doing that as well, it was a great listen. Highly recommend to anyone here. James are you doing any events in Seattle anytime soon? :D
Anything planned for NYC? :)
Wish you had discussed how coffee tastes more and done some blind tests.
Blind test on coffee I believe it's kinda difficult to do blind tests because random people's sensory skills are not that good especially for people with common sour-bitter confusion. It is different though if you test the coffee to people with Q-Grader or R-Grader or something sensorial title like those because their certification is legit enough to prove them as an expert in tasting coffee.
Whilst I think Kruve have made a bit of a rod for their own backs, initially, with too small sieve meshes (excluding coarser grind settings) & slightly unrealistic suggested sieve intervals (high wastage - but this can be mitigated by using larger intervals), some of the points raised seem a little off the mark. I'm not sure there is a burr grinder of any known type that can fit the entire distribution between particles of a given size & those twice that size (producing ~70% in that range would be considered good). What is the sdev. of a ~£130 grinder distribution vs that of a £40-£50 hand grinder?
Huh? They've got sieves that go up as course as whole beans. Were those not available three years ago? As far as intervals, I suppose that's up to personal taste. But they do have complete sets for that very purpose.
@@MikeTrieu At the coarser end of drip grind, you can't even capture 50% between 400 & 1100Kruve (largest stock size), that means a lot of wastage. Kruve sift suggestions are more like sieves x2 apart. They only made the XL sifter sizes (1200/1400/1600) because I asked them to.
I'm confused by this product. Everybody tells me that freshly grinded coffee looses a lot of flavors in minutes. Know using the sifter which takes some minutes, I have perfectly calibrated grains, but I loose so much flavors in the same time... what's the clue, and where's the benefit?
If only Kruve had sets in stock ...
is grind uniformity really that important?
I understand the concept but does it really make such a substantial difference to warrant the excessive attention given to it?
yes
Aren’t the large grind best for cold brew and the fines best for espresso¿
Too fine is bad for espresso
@@minamur So, Turkish, then?
In blind taste testing, I prefer the taste of my coffee from the Hario Skerton Pro over the Baratza Vario and the EK 43 for Kalita Wave pour over. Espresso is quite a different matter.
You have really good taste buds! In theory, that's true because high RPM motor in electric grinders produce heat that affect the taste of the coffee
its also good for sifting kief
Does anyone make particle sorters to separate coffee by particle size ?
Gotta be much harder than laser cell sorting and would be slow but il curious how you’d perceive the difference between brews with more homogeneous but irregular surface areas
why throw away those "unfit" particles?
the fines could be used in turkish coffee, and the coarsely ground ones can be cooked to a mirra (a type of syrian coffee), or for a cold brew maybe?
I might need glasses.
$130 is about half the current cost. I would maybe have bought at $130, but no way at $270.
thing looks like a huge guitar pic
I actually like the idea of this for different coffee. I can grind once and then separate everything into french press, pourover, and espresso/turkish.
uh...
who trows away fines? you can make a kind of turkish coffee with them,
Ok I have my perfect particle size and what about other that left? Trash?
You could make a good coffee scrub out of it :D or use it in gardening, coffee is a pest deterrent in some cases
Muy bueno este analisis para una taza limpia de cafe brillante...creo que hare la inversion en buen molino...
Ummm I was excited but now I’ll keep searching
I am sad. I thought this product would make James happy.
From the thumbnail I thought this was a guitar pick
You shake it with air, you oxidize your coffee faster! And is very long for a cup of coffee...
The price is too high, i prefer buy a good grinder directly...
After only 3 months, you lost it in your cupboard...
I love your Neil Gaiman voice
All these extra tools.. It's getting to point where I can just walk over to a nice coffee shop which uses an expensive machine and come back by the time I would've finished from all the setup
Maybe actually show it in use, how you personally prefer to use it etc. Sure you shake but showing the workflow is normally part of a review.
Normally you are so extensive in details and method, this felt phoned in because you needed a video out due to being sent a product.
Also, if we like the ABCD coffee's in the current test, will we be able to purchase more of them?
kruve sifter is too expensive !!! just use tea strainer more cheaper and it have same result
Well, not exactly the same. You'll get rid of the fines, sure, but you'll also be trapping the boulders along with your yield. The point of the Kruve is to isolate that sweet spot.
Even for a fussy day-to-day coffee maker thing is a waste of money to buy and a waste of time and coffee to use.
Just buy a better grinder!
Just another reason to extract more money
Excellent for cannabis, overkill for coffee
Why is this in my suggested videos? I don't even drink coffee...
Is it just me, or does James seem a little drunk here?
Hmm, if grain size affects flavour, and too small, and too big particles are undesirable, then does that mean that the very fine grind for espresso makes espresso a bad coffee? Same for French press, it's grains have to be bigger than the medium grains for poured coffee. I dunno, I think that a good coffee is a good coffee, and the different brewing methods just satisfy different kinds of tastes... But I don't have to make a living out of me saying my coffee is better than other other's coffee, so in that case it might make sense to try and invent all sorts of "differences" that aren't truly 100% there :/
its more about the evenness of it. While he specifically compared sizes required for pourover, the same methodology applies to espresso and french press and any other method, you want the particles to be the same size otherwise they all extract and different rates which is uneven and usually results in a bitter or sour cup. Hope this helps!
No. just no.
That thing is kinda useless.
...Please lose the 🎶 music… Thank you...
Please lower the volume of the background audio track, or remove it altogether when you're speaking. Its distracting, thank you.
not distracting at all
Personally I don't find it hugely distracting - but I do agree it could be a little bit lower in the mix.
I was listening on a current model MacBook Pro, thanks for considering the change.