The operational losses are a constant in Naval Aviation. I grew up on Naval Air Stations and saw losses of pilots and crew at every one. My best friend and I watched helplessly as his Dad’s F8 crashed into the ocean right in front of my house. The thing is, it was his stepdad. His real Dad was also a Navy pilot who was also killed in an Aviation incident. We read the Navy Times, and in the back it listed the KIA/MIA from Vietnam each week- the Navy losses were staggering and felt through the community. Everybody knew someone and their families that suffered loss .
All military aviation is risky. The equipment is pushed to the limits and maintained by mechanics that sometimes have less than a year of experience. I knew a warrant Officer that was the test pilot for the local aviation detachment when I was stationed in West Germany. He went to pick up and OH-58 form maintenance one time and during the pre-flight found out they had filled the rotor hub with hydraulic fluid. it was supposed to be 30 weight oil. Needless to say, some corrective action, was required before the helicopter was returned to the unit.
I appreciated your presentation very much. I served on the Oriskany from 1969 to 1973, first as the hotsuit man on the Crash Crew and later as a Fly 2 yellow shirt. While serving and up to now, I've never felt that the Oriskany got the credit and attention she, her crew and Air Wings deserved. Thank you.
My dad served on the Oriskany as an air traffic controller during the Korean War. He got out of the Navy at NAS Olathe in 1957 and immediately went to work with the CAA and of course, later on, the FAA, at the Kansas City ARTCC until retirement in 1985.
Superb video Mr Ward. People don't realise how dangerous a carrier is or the amount of aircraft lost in Vietnam. RIP to all the lost carrier servicemen and pilots.
My coworker served on the oriskany in Vietnam and I always asked him abt it granted he was just a grumpy old fart and got fired but still cool nonetheless
My Dad was on Oriskany 72 -75 while she was home ported at NAS Alameda. He was in Fox Div. Had my first dependents cruise on her. Laying flat on my back, I watched the Golden Gate Bridge pass over head and thinking the top of the mast was going to hit. And, I can truly say the biggest thing I got to steer was the Oriskany. Had the wheel for a bit. Glad she became a reef and not razor blades.
One thing that caught my eye was the amazing number of pilots listed as 'Rescued.'' What a testament to the air crews, their SERE training, and the SAR crews who got them out.
This presentation hit hard. We were trained in the art of firefighting from Navy boot camp onward, into our operational commands, and then once a year between deployments. At the end of FRAMP at Whidbey in VAQ-129, we had a mandatory class titled 'Shipboard Safety', taught by a PO1 who had Vietnam deployment experience. As part of the syllabus, he showed us 3 films, 'Trial by Fire' about the Forrestal fire in 67, another about the Enterprise fire in 69, and the Oriskany fire which you detailed in this video. This was the first time of many that we saw these films in training, and they pointed out the mistakes made in each one, so that we wouldn't make them all over again. It was stressed that living aboard a US carrier is one of the most hazardous environments there is, and we took it to heart. On the 3 deployments (and work-ups) I made during my Navy tenure, there were fire drills at least once every day, and there were occasions when we actually had to fight real fires. Nothing as major or devastating as the ones in the films, but we prevailed before they got out of hand. But back to your video CDR Mooch, I had no idea the combat and operational losses aboard the Oriskany were so severe aside from that one major fire. I am now 63, and many years out of the Navy, but all of those drills, training, and experience are still foremost in my mind, and can be put to use in everyday life if need be. I'm still working in Aviation Maintenance to this day, and all of this is still very relevant to my daily activity. Thanks again for another great presentation. BZ
When I was in boot camp at Great Lakes in 10/1979, one of my company commanders, was onboard the Forrestal when that accident happened. He sat us all down one evening and shared the story of his experiences - it made a very big impression on all of us.
Thank you for remembering the USS Oriskany! My father served in Vietnam on her. He told me about the fire and that he lost all his personal belongings. He was a cook and bomb stacker. He never really talked much about it and it's nice to know what happened. Thank you!
Mooch, my FIL CDR (Ret) Jim Nunn was a young pilot that ejected out of a VF-162 F-8 off the cat at night, underwater, and survived. He was also in the Oriskany fire, which he also survived. Sad times for all those brave warriors from the Bloody (CVW) 16 that gave the ultimate sacrifice.
@@seeingeyegod yep. I believe he is the only person to survive a night underwater ejection. Doctors said it because he was a big strong guy (callsign Tarzan), so when he broke his neck on ejection it didn’t kill him or even knock him out. After the SAR helo pulled him out of the water and got him on deck, he tried to go man the spare and continue his mission, before the crew made him go to Medical.
That was a sobering yet fascinating report on the trials of Oriskany in the Vietnam war. I was USAF attending Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA in 1973 yet I had always found Navy carrier operations of great interest and I managed to get up to Alameda as soon as I could. I vividly recall stepping out on the pier where Oriskany and Enterprise were across from each other, while Ranger was nearby. It took some doing trying to grasp the size of those ships while also reflecting on the irony of Enterprise and Oriskany sharing a common dock as well as such tragic histories. RIP to all those lost.
I got to tour the carrier Saratoga when it was Stationed in Jacksonville Florida before she was decommissioned. My best friend was in the Navy and was a cook on the carrier. I could not believe how big it actually was! He took me all over and through the ship. I’ll never forget it. I wish every American citizen would tour our military bases and ships to get a better understanding of our military and how and what our service men and women do for our country and all of us. It would give people a better perspective of what is required to keep us safe when important military spending bills come up so those of us that call our representatives could voice our concerns and support for our military.
My dad was on the Mighty O during these years as the catapult operator! I have all his Oriskany books as well. I bought him an Oriskany hat to wear at the VA where he volunteers. He still gets a lot of comments on it. May the 44 lost, RIP.
Ward, I'm not sure if you knew this, but we had a survivor of this fire serving with us in VF-102, 30 years after this fire. Amazing to work with soneone who directly witnessed this tragic day.
I was on USS F D Roosevelt (CVA-42) during some of this time. We knew we were living on a powder keg, but accepted the risk. Forestall and Oriskany experienced the worst of the worst. It brings tears to my eyes thinking about it now. Thanks for reminding us, Mooch, that sea service is dangerous and to remember those that have perished. BZ.
My dad served on three aircraft carriers between 1965 and 1969. His job was to work on F-8 Corsairs. He did two tours in Vietnam. I don't remember which aircraft carriers he was on. He volunteered to work on jets in Cam Ranh Bay twice. I think he said the jet were too damaged to land on an aircraft carrier after the missions. He did serve in Army Reserve. He reenlisted in the Navy in 1980 as “AX” technician and retired in 1994 as CCC PO1and AX technician. My dad is enjoying his retirement and his golfing is what keep him going. Ward, thank you for sharing what was a heartbreaking story for the sailors to perish in the fire. They will never be forgotten.
Thank you for remembering and honoring these brave men. My Dad was assigned to VF-111 and was onboard during the fire. He had been a brown shirt and a green shirt. He told me a few stories from this time.
When Oriskany was sitting at Mare Island Vallejo CA I used to look at her across the way and think of her history. She was docked there for many years…just sitting and growing older. I was always reminded of her history and the sacrifice made by so many. She served her country above and beyond 🫡🇺🇸 May we never forget the lives lost at sea.
One of my instructors in dive school, Travis Allinson, was the superintendent for the sinking of the Oriskany. He was the first guy to dive on her after the sinking too. Id love to see her final resting place for myself some day.
Thanks Ward, my recruiter told me of the fire when I returened from A school in teh spring of 74. Far too many people in this country willl ever know of their dedication to duty and ultimate sacrifice.
A good friend of mine in junior high and high school, Bill Johnson, lost his father and this fire. He never got to meet him as he was born several months after the fire. He was an aviator, LTJG William Johnson.
My brother served on the Oriskany during that time... So many stories. Wish he were still around to relate them. He did survive the fire though. The way he explained it was much like you did. Said the guy panicked and tossed the flare into the locker. He said his bunk was not far from the locker. He was on his way to the deck when he was basically launched out of the passage onto the deck from the explosion. He didn't get hurt though.
My uncle was on the Oriskany when the fire happened. I remember him telling me the story and when he said "locker" I envisioned a foot locker and a small hand flare. I had no idea he meant a large flare and a massive room locker. My uncle passed away a few years ago with Alzheimer's disease.
The elementary school my sister went to had a pen pal program for people serving in Viet Nam. Each kid would draw a couple of names and the kid would write letters to the guys they were assigned. My sister was given two guys on USS Oriskany. They exchanged letters for a couple of months then the fire happened. She never heard from them again.
We came to aid Oriskany when she was on fire . We pulled along her starboard side and transferred pumps as she had list to starboard . I was radarman in cic and went to bridge and witnessed sailors on carrier throw lines to raise pumps up. After emergency repairs in subic bay . We escorted her back to states . She refueled us at sea one time. We kept her in site on radar as she was steaming at max speed .I know this because we were at 30 knots and she was out of site after seven days . I remember she went north towards San Francisco and we went to home port in San Diego. If I recall we made our home port from yankee station and San Diego in twelve days . I have film of her going from we’re we rendezvous with us on trip back . I was USS Dale DLG 19 .
Excellent presentation. It’s important to discuss and remember history or we will forget and won’t learn from it, and instead repeat it. God bless the souls that were lost. Hero’s one and all, May they rest in peace.
I joined the Air Force three years after this tragedy. Not having navy ties, I was nonetheless familiar with this incident and a bit of the history of this ship. I attended high school in Oriskany, NY and passed by the monument to the battle every school day for eight years. The Oriskany was a proud ship.
I served on board the Hancock CVA 19 for two years and two more on the Chicago CG11. (1974 to 78) I was a well trained ET but the school that benefited me most and had the biggest impact was the week long fire fighting training. Ships burn and the constant fire fighting drilling and 24/7 fire watches gave me comfort serving on these ancient ships.
Thank you for the in depth episode on this tragedy Ward. Lest we never forget the sacrifices all of our service members endured during this time in our history.
Excellent presentation of a terrifying incident. Factually stated sans opinion. Thank you for raising the standard of fact presentation. "For want of a nail, a shoe was lost. For want of a shoe a horse was lost. For want of a horse...."
Ward thanks for telling this story. My dad was on the Oriskany in that era. You mentioned aircraft losses as “Combat or Operational” can you breakdown operational losses. That was a significant number. Combat is self explanatory. Was just in Norfolk at the Naval Museum this week and saw the large model of the USS America and thought of you. The USS Wisconsin was a great tour as well. As a small child my dad would take me onboard the ships he was on. The smells of the Wisconsin reminded me of that time 50+ years ago.
Suggest getting the book BLOODY SIXTEEN by PETER FEY - it's the history of the USS Oriskany & Air Wing 16 during the whole period (Operation Rolling Thunder) covered in this video - along with all the aircraft losses, both combat & operational.
Operational losses are just things that happen that occur with the loss of an aircraft like having a system malfunction while in flight that causes the pilot to eject or crash without being involved in combat. For example, one of the planes failed to launch correctly from the catapult which resulted of the loss of the entire crew.
I was ships company aboard the USS Bon Home Richard CVA-31 during two WestPac cruises in 1967 & 68. After an Underway Replenishment (UNREP) it was determined that there was a missing aircraft parachute flare. Crews were mustered on the hangar deck and the responsible party was ordered to step forward. With the promise of no disciplinary action one young sailor stepped forward and led officers to the hidden flare. Subsequently the young sailor was loaded aboard the COD and flown to the Philippines never to be heard from again. In light of the Oriskany fire no one was in any mood to tolerate such dangerous behavior.
My father was on the "O" on this deployment. He was tasked with the working party to recover bodies in officer country. The event caused a long term bout of alcoholism through an AQ training tour at Millington to cross into the newly formed F-14 platform with VF-2 on Enterprise in September of '73. He never talked about the fire until I joined the Navy in '92 before I left for the 7th fleet and the start of a 20 year career as a parachute rigger. Would love to share this video with him but not sure how it would affect him.
May I recommend a book about the '67-'68 Oriskany cruises written by a VA-65 pilot who flew 100's of combat sorties over North Vietnam: "Dead Men Flying" by Mike "Mule" Mullane. His squadron sailed with twelve A-4E Skyhawks and twenty-two pilots. After seven days, it had eight aircraft and nineteen pilots. The author had over one hundred days to go, and knew he would never see home again. It is a brilliantly written, intimate book. Had I read it as a 21 year old AOCS Candidate I may have sought another career. I came across it after reading an excellent review by Stephen Coonts.
A sobering episode Ward. Even as a S70B2 TACCO you think you are across the vast majority of Naval Aviation history from most countries I had no idea of O's history in that period. Thanks for the reminder. Vale
People don’t understand the A-3 Whale difficulties in landing on an Aircraft Carrier plus the pilot’s professionalism while flying them. I remember them during my deployments on the Forestall. It would be interesting to see something about the Whale’s history and especially landing and takeoff from a carrier.
They have one at New England Air Museum at Bradley (Hartford) And I just remember seeing it as a kid and thinking it was an ugly beast. Seeing it as an adult, I marvel at the fact that it operated from a carrier.
I served on the USS Ranger CV-61 from 85 to 88. Interestingly enough, my two uncles (father's side) served in her during the Vietnam War. That, out of the way, I currently live in Upstate NY. Oriskany, NY, is a short drive from me. One of the USS Oriskany's anchors and an A-4 make up part of a memorial to that great ship near the east end of the town of Oriskany.
I served aboard the Mighty O in 1975 on her last deployment before decommissioning. I forgot the name of the Typhoon but we were in it for 3 days and had to return to Subic. The starboard cat was not used for the remainder of the deployment. I was with va153 and it was the squadron's last cruise too!
Incredible presentation Ward Carroll. I was on USS FOX (DLG-33) on Oct. 9 A-4E 152085 VA 164 when Ltjg Larry J. Cunningham off the USS ORISKANY was shot down and rescued by FOX. I was PN3 (Ship's Office) USS FOX (DLG-33) second Vietnam deployment. ☮
Thank you, Sir, for a very sobering reminder, not just for us sailors but for the nation, of the sacrifices made by those during a very unpopular war. May they all rest in peace.
Noooo... I would say, more luck, is why the ship survived to be sunk as a reef*. Professionalism would have never even tempt fate by even tossing the munition in the first place. On the other hand, those mistakes made DID in fact change things. One, it started the change in culture (which took at least a decade to mature, which dove tails with the fact that companies began to make the products we today take for granted: All the reflective materials for marking, EEBD's and the like) * Fire damage (and the loss of day-to-day performance as result) was probably the biggest incentive to decom Oriskany when they did...
Thank you for this respectful accounts of events. This is such a depressing incident because of how it started with the flares when the sailor could have just as easily thrown the flare into the ocean. I've always felt that this incident shows that we are a forgiving nation. The sailors made a stupid youthful mistake and for that could easily have spent their lives in prison for it. In an earlier era, they might have been hung the next morning.
Have to respectfully disagree with this take. You can’t throw ordinance around that causes 40 humans to die and not do any jail time. That isn’t right. Not saying lock them up forever, but should’ve done a year plus insane amount of community service
@@Ed-jg3ud I don't disagree. A year plus community service, sure. But they weren't hung, even though I'm sure that right after the disaster, many wanted to, and they weren't jailed for life.
Mooch, that story was absolutely incredible. As much as I’ve known about other catastrophes would’ve happened on ships I’ve never heard of that one on the Oriskany. Such amazing detail that you provide on these videos, thank you again for your service and God bless all of those perished on that day.
I was in G division CVA 34 1967,68,69,70. Byron butch martens AO3 red shirt fwd assembly, bomb elevator maint po, red shirt fligh 13:20 t deck crew. Worked 15 hrs day 68 tet offensive. John McCaine flew off ship and landed in no. Vietnam city park lake. Lost 90 guys per cruise on the three I was on. Ship mates made life bearable. Saw too many pilots die.and crash. Went back 2007 and 2008. Saigon to set up factory. Music on radio Elvis Presley. Older men grabbed my hands. Felt safe there.
I saw some of our aircraft go in the water on launch. Launching and landing on an aircraft carrier are probably the two most dangerous evolutions in aviation. Only 3 carriers experienced the devastation that occurred on Big O - the other 2 being the mentioned horror on Forrestal and then on Enterprise in January, 1969. I am glad that Oriskany wasn't scrapped. She now lays on the bottom off of Pensacola where she is a diving attraction and a home for fish. BTW, Ward mentioned in the losses that the recon aircraft that were lost were all combat. High losses were true for all recon aircraft. This was because they had to go in following a strike to assess damage. The enemy was waiting for them. The ones I remember were the RF-8 Crusaders, the A-3D Skywarriors, and the RA-5C Vigilantes.
My great uncle, Eugene Ely was a little help with the Navy brown shoes ;). Served on the FID from 87 to 90 (last fire day before Med Dep out of of Mayport). Could not get those HB3 doors to seal vertically even back then. Dad was a USN Pilot WWII. Must be a genetic thing,but I was a pit snipe/Cryo tech, but I love MSFS. Great channel.
Thank you for informing us of facts that weren't readily available back during the Vietnam War, and showing the remarkable bravery and sacrifice these soldiers gave for our country.
Sir Ward… I have watched your channel for years.., as an American Allie.. here in 🇳🇿… & while I know so so much of the stands our militaries have made…, & the costs… Be spend the minutes reading the names of the aircrew in this… getting present to the true cost…. It’s forever humbling 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🇺🇸🇦🇺🇳🇿
Mate… we/ I… 58years.. have sat here in NZ in the luxury & stability & peace provide for us in the South Pacific..🙏 and while always having been mindful of & impressed/ thankful for the feats of “them yanks”, but in my luxury n peace I have always seen it on tv…/ thought it was just 🇺🇸 throwing it’s weight around…👍 But I have forgotten to re present myself to the literal guys/ people involved .. this lists are so sobering Anyway a huge cheers to the USN🙏🙏🙏
Ward, I couldnt help but notice that Oriskanys Senior Medical Officer, CDR Donahue was killed in the fire. This must have had a dramatic effect on the medical services conducted during and after the tragedy.
Thanks Ward for the detailed reports. As in most disasters, it is frightening how quickly control of a situation is lost. God bless all those men & their families.
My first ship, I reported to the Oriskany in January 1971. Unsure if it was factual, but we were told during training that several men who perished were near OBA Canister Lockers but were untrained in their use. A sad day indeed.
Probably true. When I went through boot camp (San Diego) in 1962, we were shown an OBA and given a few sentences about it but I still don't know how to use the thing. Also, I don't know to this day where the life jackets ("float coats") were stowed, and never knew about the self-deploying life rafts stowed in cans lining the flight deck edge... found out about that as a civilian touring the Lex which is now a beached museum. Much survival depends on training.
I recently read “Return to Saigon” by Larry Duthie. He was a Navy attack pilot on the Orsikany during this time frame with two cruises. The book goes into great detail about combat operations and later on the fire. Well worth the read.
Mooch, I was on the Oriskany that day. I was in ready room four of VF-162. Commander Dick Bellinger was the CO, I was sitting in the front row seats on the left side facing the back door when the PA system went off for the third time , Ltjg Rich Minnich One of our pilots came busting through the back door coughing and gagging and what I saw behind him was a wall of black smoke out in the passageway, I knew we were in trouble. What I didn’t know then was he would be shot down 15 months later and he didn’t get out of the aircraft. All in all it was one hell of a day! And here we are in the month of October soon the be the 57th anniversary of that Day, That I remember all too well.
The rest of the story... CDR Bellinger was a rather rotund man (no disparagement intended) who was trapped in his stateroom at the time of the fire and was unable to escape through the standard-sized porthole which faced a seaward catwalk. The Commander then stripped naked and soaped down, then was able to exit the compartment basically uninjured. Later, after the fire was secured, he unsuccessfully attempted to repeat the feat.
This dovetails wonderfully with a book about Air Wing 16 which I read this past year. Sir, the series of mistakes which led to this event could have been so easily avoidable it's tragic. Just like the Forrestal, we had to learn things the lethal way. So terrible. Thank you, Sir, for this terrific post. I truly appreciate it.
Fascinating and accurately detailed by Coammander Clayto, Ret. Just what I would expect from a UVa Engineering graduate. IB was one of my roommates in 1969/70. It was good to hear of him again!
When the fire on the Oriskany happened, my father was on board the Intrepid. Oriskany was due to relieve the Intrepid and allow them to rotate off station. When the fire happened, the Intrepid needed to stay on station longer while a replacement carrier could be found.
Thank you, Ward. I thought that I was up to speed on Naval history, but this was illuminating. What an incredible loss, and lesson and process and procedure.
Great video Mooch. People need to know the dangers that face shipboard operations, and always remember the people that gave their lives protecting our freedoms.
All from mishandling of a twenty four pound flare.... Five years ago I retired from a Fortune 100 electric utility. All operations that involved hazardous conditions were begun with a safety meeting of the crew before action. I am sure this incident and others like it led to the safety culture in industries like ours.
i remember reading WW-II BB exchanges and being horrified at how little it took to cripple warships after even a small explosion. Damage Control seems to be the MOST IMPORTANT task on ship.
In 1978 I viewed a training film called "It happened on the Oriskany". I had never heard of that bird farm before that, but the film made an impression.
Brothers never forgotten and never should be. Mooch, I got to watch Oriskany go under the waves when they sank her off the coast of Pensacola. Kind of fitting they'd reef an aircraft carrier here off the home of the "Cradle of Naval Aviation". As a young buck I got to see the Lexington many a time here around the time you was training for/in and airborne in Tomcats in the mid/late 80s up to her final decommissioning. Even got to go aboard the Forrestal during her brief stay at NAS Pensacola. Lots of history came through here and even more history making Naval Aviators trained down here.
Thanks so much for this Commander. This was before my time but shocked the hell out of me. As always your vids are informative and first class. Thanks for being you.
Thanks, Ward. I was on the Oriskany that day. Your report is close to what I heard on board, although there were several explanations for the flares igniting. I was an RM3 in CR Division, heading for the mess deck with a couple of other radiomen after a mid-watch. We heard "This is not a drill" just as a wall of dark smoke moved aft down the passageways. None of us made it to our battle stations so we joined work parties and did what we could to move ammo and aircraft, etc.
The operational losses are a constant in Naval Aviation. I grew up on Naval Air Stations and saw losses of pilots and crew at every one. My best friend and I watched helplessly as his Dad’s F8 crashed into the ocean right in front of my house. The thing is, it was his stepdad. His real Dad was also a Navy pilot who was also killed in an Aviation incident. We read the Navy Times, and in the back it listed the KIA/MIA from Vietnam each week- the Navy losses were staggering and felt through the community. Everybody knew someone and their families that suffered loss .
😢
All military aviation is risky. The equipment is pushed to the limits and maintained by mechanics that sometimes have less than a year of experience. I knew a warrant Officer that was the test pilot for the local aviation detachment when I was stationed in West Germany. He went to pick up and OH-58 form maintenance one time and during the pre-flight found out they had filled the rotor hub with hydraulic fluid. it was supposed to be 30 weight oil. Needless to say, some corrective action, was required before the helicopter was returned to the unit.
I appreciated your presentation very much. I served on the Oriskany from 1969 to 1973, first as the hotsuit man on the Crash Crew and later as a Fly 2 yellow shirt. While serving and up to now, I've never felt that the Oriskany got the credit and attention she, her crew and Air Wings deserved. Thank you.
my dad was on her at that time he was a red shirt
I greatly appreciated the straightforward, no embellishment presentation.
My dad served on the Oriskany as an air traffic controller during the Korean War. He got out of the Navy at NAS Olathe in 1957 and immediately went to work with the CAA and of course, later on, the FAA, at the Kansas City ARTCC until retirement in 1985.
Superb video Mr Ward. People don't realise how dangerous a carrier is or the amount of aircraft lost in Vietnam. RIP to all the lost carrier servicemen and pilots.
Aaaaa
My coworker served on the oriskany in Vietnam and I always asked him abt it granted he was just a grumpy old fart and got fired but still cool nonetheless
My Dad was on Oriskany 72 -75 while she was home ported at NAS Alameda. He was in Fox Div. Had my first dependents cruise on her. Laying flat on my back, I watched the Golden Gate Bridge pass over head and thinking the top of the mast was going to hit. And, I can truly say the biggest thing I got to steer was the Oriskany. Had the wheel for a bit. Glad she became a reef and not razor blades.
One thing that caught my eye was the amazing number of pilots listed as 'Rescued.''
What a testament to the air crews, their SERE training, and the SAR crews who got them out.
This presentation hit hard. We were trained in the art of firefighting from Navy boot camp onward, into our operational commands, and then once a year between deployments. At the end of FRAMP at Whidbey in VAQ-129, we had a mandatory class titled 'Shipboard Safety', taught by a PO1 who had Vietnam deployment experience. As part of the syllabus, he showed us 3 films, 'Trial by Fire' about the Forrestal fire in 67, another about the Enterprise fire in 69, and the Oriskany fire which you detailed in this video. This was the first time of many that we saw these films in training, and they pointed out the mistakes made in each one, so that we wouldn't make them all over again. It was stressed that living aboard a US carrier is one of the most hazardous environments there is, and we took it to heart. On the 3 deployments (and work-ups) I made during my Navy tenure, there were fire drills at least once every day, and there were occasions when we actually had to fight real fires. Nothing as major or devastating as the ones in the films, but we prevailed before they got out of hand. But back to your video CDR Mooch, I had no idea the combat and operational losses aboard the Oriskany were so severe aside from that one major fire. I am now 63, and many years out of the Navy, but all of those drills, training, and experience are still foremost in my mind, and can be put to use in everyday life if need be. I'm still working in Aviation Maintenance to this day, and all of this is still very relevant to my daily activity. Thanks again for another great presentation. BZ
When I was in boot camp at Great Lakes in 10/1979, one of my company commanders, was onboard the Forrestal when that accident happened. He sat us all down one evening and shared the story of his experiences - it made a very big impression on all of us.
Thank you for remembering the USS Oriskany! My father served in Vietnam on her. He told me about the fire and that he lost all his personal belongings. He was a cook and bomb stacker. He never really talked much about it and it's nice to know what happened. Thank you!
Mooch, my FIL CDR (Ret) Jim Nunn was a young pilot that ejected out of a VF-162 F-8 off the cat at night, underwater, and survived. He was also in the Oriskany fire, which he also survived. Sad times for all those brave warriors from the Bloody (CVW) 16 that gave the ultimate sacrifice.
he ejected from the plane while it was underwater?
@@seeingeyegod yep. I believe he is the only person to survive a night underwater ejection. Doctors said it because he was a big strong guy (callsign Tarzan), so when he broke his neck on ejection it didn’t kill him or even knock him out. After the SAR helo pulled him out of the water and got him on deck, he tried to go man the spare and continue his mission, before the crew made him go to Medical.
That was a sobering yet fascinating report on the trials of Oriskany in the Vietnam war. I was USAF attending Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA in 1973 yet I had always found Navy carrier operations of great interest and I managed to get up to Alameda as soon as I could. I vividly recall stepping out on the pier where Oriskany and Enterprise were across from each other, while Ranger was nearby. It took some doing trying to grasp the size of those ships while also reflecting on the irony of Enterprise and Oriskany sharing a common dock as well as such tragic histories. RIP to all those lost.
I got to tour the carrier Saratoga when it was
Stationed in Jacksonville Florida before she was decommissioned. My best friend was in the Navy and was a cook on the carrier. I could not believe how big it actually was! He took me all over and through the ship. I’ll never forget it. I wish every American citizen would tour our military bases and ships to get a better understanding of our military and how and what our service men and women do for our country and all of us. It would give people a better perspective of what is required to keep us safe when important military spending bills come up so those of us that call our representatives could voice our concerns and support for our military.
My dad was on the Mighty O during these years as the catapult operator! I have all his Oriskany books as well. I bought him an Oriskany hat to wear at the VA where he volunteers. He still gets a lot of comments on it. May the 44 lost, RIP.
Ward, I'm not sure if you knew this, but we had a survivor of this fire serving with us in VF-102, 30 years after this fire. Amazing to work with soneone who directly witnessed this tragic day.
And that, children, is why every sailor is a firefighter. I was still in high school when this happened, but I remember it. Thank you, Commander. 🤙🏼
I was on USS F D Roosevelt (CVA-42) during some of this time. We knew we were living on a powder keg, but accepted the risk. Forestall and Oriskany experienced the worst of the worst. It brings tears to my eyes thinking about it now. Thanks for reminding us, Mooch, that sea service is dangerous and to remember those that have perished. BZ.
My dad served on three aircraft carriers between 1965 and 1969. His job was to work on F-8 Corsairs. He did two tours in Vietnam. I don't remember which aircraft carriers he was on. He volunteered to work on jets in Cam Ranh Bay twice.
I think he said the jet were too damaged to land on an aircraft carrier after the missions. He did serve in Army Reserve.
He reenlisted in the Navy in 1980 as “AX” technician and retired in 1994 as CCC PO1and AX technician. My dad is enjoying his retirement and his golfing is what keep him going. Ward, thank you for sharing what was a heartbreaking story for the sailors to perish in the fire. They will never be forgotten.
One minor correction, Eric: the F-8 was known as the "Crusader". Just trying to help... (I worked on them too).
Thank you for remembering and honoring these brave men.
My Dad was assigned to VF-111 and was onboard during the fire. He had been a brown shirt and a green shirt. He told me a few stories from this time.
Thank you, Ward, for that detailed report on USS Oriskany's Vietnam deployments.
When Oriskany was sitting at Mare Island Vallejo CA I used to look at her across the way and think of her history. She was docked there for many years…just sitting and growing older. I was always reminded of her history and the sacrifice made by so many. She served her country above and beyond 🫡🇺🇸 May we never forget the lives lost at sea.
One of my instructors in dive school, Travis Allinson, was the superintendent for the sinking of the Oriskany. He was the first guy to dive on her after the sinking too. Id love to see her final resting place for myself some day.
Thanks Ward, my recruiter told me of the fire when I returened from A school in teh spring of 74. Far too many people in this country willl ever know of their dedication to duty and ultimate sacrifice.
A good friend of mine in junior high and high school, Bill Johnson, lost his father and this fire. He never got to meet him as he was born several months after the fire. He was an aviator, LTJG William Johnson.
My brother served on the Oriskany during that time... So many stories. Wish he were still around to relate them. He did survive the fire though. The way he explained it was much like you did. Said the guy panicked and tossed the flare into the locker. He said his bunk was not far from the locker. He was on his way to the deck when he was basically launched out of the passage onto the deck from the explosion. He didn't get hurt though.
My uncle was on the Oriskany when the fire happened. I remember him telling me the story and when he said "locker" I envisioned a foot locker and a small hand flare. I had no idea he meant a large flare and a massive room locker.
My uncle passed away a few years ago with Alzheimer's disease.
The elementary school my sister went to had a pen pal program for people serving in Viet Nam. Each kid would draw a couple of names and the kid would write letters to the guys they were assigned. My sister was given two guys on USS Oriskany. They exchanged letters for a couple of months then the fire happened. She never heard from them again.
We came to aid Oriskany when she was on fire . We pulled along her starboard side and transferred pumps as she had list to starboard . I was radarman in cic and went to bridge and witnessed sailors on carrier throw lines to raise pumps up. After emergency repairs in subic bay . We escorted her back to states . She refueled us at sea one time. We kept her in site on radar as she was steaming at max speed .I know this because we were at 30 knots and she was out of site after seven days . I remember she went north towards San Francisco and we went to home port in San Diego. If I recall we made our home port from yankee station and San Diego in twelve days . I have film of her going from we’re we rendezvous with us on trip back . I was USS Dale DLG 19 .
Thank you. My Dad was aboard USS Oriskany at the time. He was with VF-111.
Devastating!!! The casualty list of names by itself hits me broadside.
Excellent presentation. It’s important to discuss and remember history or we will forget and won’t learn from it, and instead repeat it. God bless the souls that were lost. Hero’s one and all, May they rest in peace.
I joined the Air Force three years after this tragedy. Not having navy ties, I was nonetheless familiar with this incident and a bit of the history of this ship. I attended high school in Oriskany, NY and passed by the monument to the battle every school day for eight years. The Oriskany was a proud ship.
8 years of high school, down the drain
I served on board the Hancock CVA 19 for two years and two more on the Chicago CG11. (1974 to 78) I was a well trained ET but the school that benefited me most and had the biggest impact was the week long fire fighting training. Ships burn and the constant fire fighting drilling and 24/7 fire watches gave me comfort serving on these ancient ships.
Thank you for the in depth episode on this tragedy Ward. Lest we never forget the sacrifices all of our service members endured during this time in our history.
Excellent presentation of a terrifying incident. Factually stated sans opinion. Thank you for raising the standard of fact presentation. "For want of a nail, a shoe was lost. For want of a shoe a horse was lost. For want of a horse...."
Great presentation, we salute those brave service members who sacrificed so much. Bloody 16 will not be forgotten. Thanks Ward!
Ward thanks for telling this story. My dad was on the Oriskany in that era. You mentioned aircraft losses as “Combat or Operational” can you breakdown operational losses. That was a significant number. Combat is self explanatory. Was just in Norfolk at the Naval Museum this week and saw the large model of the USS America and thought of you. The USS Wisconsin was a great tour as well. As a small child my dad would take me onboard the ships he was on. The smells of the Wisconsin reminded me of that time 50+ years ago.
Suggest getting the book BLOODY SIXTEEN by PETER FEY - it's the history of the USS Oriskany & Air Wing 16 during the whole period (Operation Rolling Thunder) covered in this video - along with all the aircraft losses, both combat & operational.
@@johnkuechle9563 thank you very much. I remember hearing the name a lot until the Forrestal fire.
Operational losses are just things that happen that occur with the loss of an aircraft like having a system malfunction while in flight that causes the pilot to eject or crash without being involved in combat. For example, one of the planes failed to launch correctly from the catapult which resulted of the loss of the entire crew.
I was ships company aboard the USS Bon Home Richard CVA-31 during two WestPac cruises in 1967 & 68. After an Underway Replenishment (UNREP) it was determined that there was a missing aircraft parachute flare. Crews were mustered on the hangar deck and the responsible party was ordered to step forward. With the promise of no disciplinary action one young sailor stepped forward and led officers to the hidden flare. Subsequently the young sailor was loaded aboard the COD and flown to the Philippines never to be heard from again. In light of the Oriskany fire no one was in any mood to tolerate such dangerous behavior.
What was the kid going to do with the flare?
My father was on the "O" on this deployment. He was tasked with the working party to recover bodies in officer country. The event caused a long term bout of alcoholism through an AQ training tour at Millington to cross into the newly formed F-14 platform with VF-2 on Enterprise in September of '73.
He never talked about the fire until I joined the Navy in '92 before I left for the 7th fleet and the start of a 20 year career as a parachute rigger.
Would love to share this video with him but not sure how it would affect him.
Just ask.
May I recommend a book about the '67-'68 Oriskany cruises written by a VA-65 pilot who flew 100's of combat sorties over North Vietnam: "Dead Men Flying" by Mike "Mule" Mullane. His squadron sailed with twelve A-4E Skyhawks and twenty-two pilots. After seven days, it had eight aircraft and nineteen pilots. The author had over one hundred days to go, and knew he would never see home again. It is a brilliantly written, intimate book. Had I read it as a 21 year old AOCS Candidate I may have sought another career. I came across it after reading an excellent review by Stephen Coonts.
My Father served on USS Gambier Bay during the Battle of Samar. Much respect to the Sailors and Air Crew on Oriskany.
How old are you?
@ markmclaughlin2690 Battle O F F Samar ! (...).
Thanks for posting, I've never heard this tragic story before. Frightening to see how quickly things got out of control.
A sobering episode Ward. Even as a S70B2 TACCO you think you are across the vast majority of Naval Aviation history from most countries I had no idea of O's history in that period. Thanks for the reminder. Vale
People don’t understand the A-3 Whale difficulties in landing on an Aircraft Carrier plus the pilot’s professionalism while flying them. I remember them during my deployments on the Forestall. It would be interesting to see something about the Whale’s history and especially landing and takeoff from a carrier.
The A-3 should have never been used on a "small" Essex class.
@@michaels.5878 Well while I agree with you the powers that be decided they could. The Whales was a tight enough fit for the Forestall class carrier.
It's hairy to watch. 70,000 lbs landing a on a postage stamp. VQ 1 and 2 flew them in the day.
They have one at New England Air Museum at Bradley (Hartford)
And I just remember seeing it as a kid and thinking it was an ugly beast.
Seeing it as an adult, I marvel at the fact that it operated from a carrier.
@@bobandbally88 We had a wingtip strike by El 4 on our A-7E I don’t remember what cruise it was on but we had to replace our rudder and the yaw pack.
Gone but NEVER forgotten thanks in, no small part, to you! Thanks, Brother!
I served on the USS Ranger CV-61 from 85 to 88. Interestingly enough, my two uncles (father's side) served in her during the Vietnam War. That, out of the way, I currently live in Upstate NY. Oriskany, NY, is a short drive from me. One of the USS Oriskany's anchors and an A-4 make up part of a memorial to that great ship near the east end of the town of Oriskany.
I served aboard the Mighty O in 1975 on her last deployment before decommissioning. I forgot the name of the Typhoon but we were in it for 3 days and had to return to Subic. The starboard cat was not used for the remainder of the deployment. I was with va153 and it was the squadron's last cruise too!
Incredible presentation Ward Carroll. I was on USS FOX (DLG-33) on Oct. 9 A-4E 152085 VA 164 when Ltjg Larry J. Cunningham off the USS ORISKANY was shot down and rescued by FOX. I was PN3 (Ship's Office) USS FOX (DLG-33) second Vietnam deployment. ☮
Thank God for those unsung heroes, the plane guard cans, et al.
Thank you, Sir, for a very sobering reminder, not just for us sailors but for the nation, of the sacrifices made by those during a very unpopular war. May they all rest in peace.
Thanks for the generous support.
Professionalism & dedication is what kept these ships afloat .......what every Sailor is about!
Noooo... I would say, more luck, is why the ship survived to be sunk as a reef*. Professionalism would have never even tempt fate by even tossing the munition in the first place. On the other hand, those mistakes made DID in fact change things. One, it started the change in culture (which took at least a decade to mature, which dove tails with the fact that companies began to make the products we today take for granted: All the reflective materials for marking, EEBD's and the like) * Fire damage (and the loss of day-to-day performance as result) was probably the biggest incentive to decom Oriskany when they did...
Thank you for this respectful accounts of events. This is such a depressing incident because of how it started with the flares when the sailor could have just as easily thrown the flare into the ocean.
I've always felt that this incident shows that we are a forgiving nation. The sailors made a stupid youthful mistake and for that could easily have spent their lives in prison for it. In an earlier era, they might have been hung the next morning.
Another example of safety procedures being written in blood.
Have to respectfully disagree with this take. You can’t throw ordinance around that causes 40 humans to die and not do any jail time. That isn’t right. Not saying lock them up forever, but should’ve done a year plus insane amount of community service
@@Ed-jg3ud I don't disagree. A year plus community service, sure. But they weren't hung, even though I'm sure that right after the disaster, many wanted to, and they weren't jailed for life.
@@Ed-jg3ud I don't think prison sentences for unintentional even if preventable or careless accidents is justice. That's revenge and is unproductive.
@@wyskass861 reckless negligence with items that are lethal is not revenge, it’s 100% justice, morally and legally in the eyes of the law!
Mooch, that story was absolutely incredible. As much as I’ve known about other catastrophes would’ve happened on ships I’ve never heard of that one on the Oriskany. Such amazing detail that you provide on these videos, thank you again for your service and God bless all of those perished on that day.
Thank you for this Ward 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I was in G division CVA 34 1967,68,69,70. Byron butch martens AO3 red shirt fwd assembly, bomb elevator maint po, red shirt fligh 13:20 t deck crew. Worked 15 hrs day 68 tet offensive. John McCaine flew off ship and landed in no. Vietnam city park lake. Lost 90 guys per cruise on the three I was on. Ship mates made life bearable. Saw too many pilots die.and crash. Went back 2007 and 2008. Saigon to set up factory. Music on radio Elvis Presley. Older men grabbed my hands. Felt safe there.
I saw some of our aircraft go in the water on launch. Launching and landing on an aircraft carrier are probably the two most dangerous evolutions in aviation. Only 3 carriers experienced the devastation that occurred on Big O - the other 2 being the mentioned horror on Forrestal and then on Enterprise in January, 1969. I am glad that Oriskany wasn't scrapped. She now lays on the bottom off of Pensacola where she is a diving attraction and a home for fish.
BTW, Ward mentioned in the losses that the recon aircraft that were lost were all combat. High losses were true for all recon aircraft. This was because they had to go in following a strike to assess damage. The enemy was waiting for them. The ones I remember were the RF-8 Crusaders, the A-3D Skywarriors, and the RA-5C Vigilantes.
Once again, every Marine a rifleman, every sailor a firefighter. Heroic service that makes one proud to be an American!
My great uncle, Eugene Ely was a little help with the Navy brown shoes ;). Served on the FID from 87 to 90 (last fire day before Med Dep out of of Mayport). Could not get those HB3 doors to seal vertically even back then. Dad was a USN Pilot WWII. Must be a genetic thing,but I was a pit snipe/Cryo tech, but I love MSFS. Great channel.
Thank you for informing us of facts that weren't readily available back during the Vietnam War, and showing the remarkable bravery and sacrifice these soldiers gave for our country.
For a real deep dive, go read ‘Bloody 16’ by Peter Fey. Great history of the Mighty O during this time period
Sir Ward… I have watched your channel for years.., as an American Allie.. here in 🇳🇿… & while I know so so much of the stands our militaries have made…, & the costs…
Be spend the minutes reading the names of the aircrew in this… getting present to the true cost…. It’s forever humbling 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🇺🇸🇦🇺🇳🇿
Mate… we/ I… 58years.. have sat here in NZ in the luxury & stability & peace provide for us in the South Pacific..🙏 and while always having been mindful of & impressed/ thankful for the feats of “them yanks”, but in my luxury n peace I have always seen it on tv…/ thought it was just 🇺🇸 throwing it’s weight around…👍
But I have forgotten to re present myself to the literal guys/ people involved .. this lists are so sobering
Anyway a huge cheers to the USN🙏🙏🙏
Jeezuss what a brutal lesson in the discipline, no tossing flares/explosives
Thanks CDR Carroll! Mike McKinley V1 USS Oriskany WestPac 66, 67-68.
Ward, I couldnt help but notice that Oriskanys Senior Medical Officer, CDR Donahue was killed in the fire. This must have had a dramatic effect on the medical services conducted during and after the tragedy.
Ward, was never knew about this terrible event. Thanks for presenting this important part of Naval history.
Thanks Ward for the detailed reports. As in most disasters, it is frightening how quickly control of a situation is lost. God bless all those men & their families.
Great information.
I was ship’s company aboard USS BENNINGTON CVS 20 starting in January 1967 during these times. 🇺🇸⚓️
My first ship, I reported to the Oriskany in January 1971. Unsure if it was factual, but we were told during training that several men who perished were near OBA Canister Lockers but were untrained in their use. A sad day indeed.
Probably true. When I went through boot camp (San Diego) in 1962, we were shown an OBA and given a few sentences about it but I still don't know how to use the thing. Also, I don't know to this day where the life jackets ("float coats") were stowed, and never knew about the self-deploying life rafts stowed in cans lining the flight deck edge... found out about that as a civilian touring the Lex which is now a beached museum. Much survival depends on training.
Thanks for covering the Oriskany's Conflagration. Everyone knows about the Forrestal, but Oriskany is less known.
NAVAIR manuals were written in Blood never forget that.
I recently read “Return to Saigon” by Larry Duthie. He was a Navy attack pilot on the Orsikany during this time frame with two cruises. The book goes into great detail about combat operations and later on the fire. Well worth the read.
Mooch, I was on the Oriskany that day. I was in ready room four of VF-162. Commander Dick Bellinger was the CO, I was sitting in the front row seats on the left side facing the back door when the PA system went off for the third time , Ltjg Rich Minnich One of our pilots came busting through the back door coughing and gagging and what I saw behind him was a wall of black smoke out in the passageway, I knew we were in trouble. What I didn’t know then was he would be shot down 15 months later and he didn’t get out of the aircraft. All in all it was one hell of a day! And here we are in the month of October soon the be the 57th anniversary of that Day, That I remember all too well.
Thanks for the detail, Roger. A hell of a day indeed. And may we never forget the efforts of guys like Rich. #RIP
The rest of the story... CDR Bellinger was a rather rotund man (no disparagement intended) who was trapped in his stateroom at the time of the fire and was unable to escape through the standard-sized porthole which faced a seaward catwalk. The Commander then stripped naked and soaped down, then was able to exit the compartment basically uninjured. Later, after the fire was secured, he unsuccessfully attempted to repeat the feat.
Your the Best Narrator Truly
Bellinger was a kick ass skipper. So sorry to see his mind go before his body.
This dovetails wonderfully with a book about Air Wing 16 which I read this past year. Sir, the series of mistakes which led to this event could have been so easily avoidable it's tragic. Just like the Forrestal, we had to learn things the lethal way. So terrible.
Thank you, Sir, for this terrific post. I truly appreciate it.
Ward you’re an excellent reporter of bad and good events.
Thanks! Great Content!
Thanks for the support, Michael!
Heartbreaking video. Good job as always Ward.
That was shocking and well done. I had no idea about the heavy losses. Thank You for not forgetting.
Fascinating and accurately detailed by Coammander Clayto, Ret. Just what I would expect from a UVa Engineering graduate. IB was one of my roommates in 1969/70. It was good to hear of him again!
I can not begin to imagine the line of reasoning to see an igniting flare and deciding that INTO the locker was AN option let alone the BEST option.
When the fire on the Oriskany happened, my father was on board the Intrepid. Oriskany was due to relieve the Intrepid and allow them to rotate off station. When the fire happened, the Intrepid needed to stay on station longer while a replacement carrier could be found.
Thank you, Ward. I thought that I was up to speed on Naval history, but this was illuminating. What an incredible loss, and lesson and process and procedure.
Saw the Oriskany up close in Hong Kong harbor summer 1970 when I was a kid. Good to know more about its history. Thanks Ward.
Another great video Ward!! Thank you!!
Thank you Ward.
Great video Mooch. People need to know the dangers that face shipboard operations, and always remember the people that gave their lives protecting our freedoms.
All from mishandling of a twenty four pound flare....
Five years ago I retired from a Fortune 100 electric utility. All operations that involved hazardous conditions were begun with a safety meeting of the crew before action. I am sure this incident and others like it led to the safety culture in industries like ours.
Never underestimate how much damage two unsupervised seamen can do.
thank you.
i remember reading WW-II BB exchanges and being horrified at how little it took to cripple warships after even a small explosion. Damage Control seems to be the MOST IMPORTANT task on ship.
When there's a big fire and/or explosions, that takes priority. The war will just have to wait.
I was waiting in the Philippines to report to VA-164 when the fire occured. The 67-68 cruise was long days for us Ordies.
IYAOYAS !
Wow, I didn't know anything about this, I had heard of the Oriskany but not of the fire or ops.
I approved of the moment of silence while we reviewed the list of casualties.
I used to see the Oriskany in Bremerton as a kid. I had no idea about any of this, but this is why we are here, to learn stuff.
In 1978 I viewed a training film called "It happened on the Oriskany". I had never heard of that bird farm before that, but the film made an impression.
Brothers never forgotten and never should be.
Mooch, I got to watch Oriskany go under the waves when they sank her off the coast of Pensacola. Kind of fitting they'd reef an aircraft carrier here off the home of the "Cradle of Naval Aviation". As a young buck I got to see the Lexington many a time here around the time you was training for/in and airborne in Tomcats in the mid/late 80s up to her final decommissioning. Even got to go aboard the Forrestal during her brief stay at NAS Pensacola. Lots of history came through here and even more history making Naval Aviators trained down here.
May God comfort the families of those who perished. My sincerest condolences. Thank you Ward.
Absolutely Positively
Thanks so much for this Commander. This was before my time but shocked the hell out of me. As always your vids are informative and first class. Thanks for being you.
I had the model of the USS Oriskany when I was a kid in the early 1970s.
Wow! Amazing, sobering story. Well reported, thank you.
Was new to me. Thank you for telling this story.
Thanks, Ward. I was on the Oriskany that day. Your report is close to what I heard on board, although there were several explanations for the flares igniting. I was an RM3 in CR Division, heading for the mess deck with a couple of other radiomen after a mid-watch. We heard "This is not a drill" just as a wall of dark smoke moved aft down the passageways. None of us made it to our battle stations so we joined work parties and did what we could to move ammo and aircraft, etc.
Good Video 👍