Your videos only get better. I’ve just spent over two hours watching them, from mountain thermals to the most recent glassing tips, and this practical marksmanship set. I’ve gotta say man, these have proven to be invaluable for me in prepping for my hunts and staying sharp off-season. Thanks for all the effort you put into these
Wonderful content. I cannot stop watching your videos. As a novice elk hunter from the East who heads to the West to hunt, these are all things I have thought about but your vast experience really put things in perspective. Thanks for doing this.
@@CliffGray you gotta walk before you can run. Don't poopoo range time. Most guys don't know how to hold a gun consistently. They flinch. They need to learn their weapon. Yes, you need to practice real world shooting, with wind, and breathing and all that. But most guys can barely shoot well at a range. If a guy can't get sub moa at a range he needs work. He should be a good range shooter, and then expand to real world.
growing up we always used a paper plate. 3rds in the plate and your good to go in vitals. I didn't worry about precision until my time in mil and later on at the range
I just went into local mountains & shot pretty much level but my rear rest set up wasn't the best. Out of 7 shots only 5 hit an 8.5 x 11 paper target at 550 yards. 2 other shots at a clanger were taken with only one hitting. Yes, you have to practice with what works for you! Thanks Cliff! I'll get out more & shoot in real life.
Ive experienced this first hand. A 300yd prone shot on a whitetail is waaaaay different than ringing a 6” steel target at the same distance and position. Recovered the deer but it changed my mind on longish shots on game. My daughter, (who is a lights out shooter and understands variables) barely missed the vitals of a mule deer at 437yds. We never recovered the animal despite full evening and full morning of tracking. It broke her heart. We learned from that. Wind is a big big deal. Appreciate your real world knowledge. Great vid. Helpful.
for sure. You mention wind - such a big one that we discount up in the mountains. Just looking at a ballistics chart at distances above 400yds will open some folks ideas on how much the wind matters. So hard to call wind up there...
Last year we practiced in high dessert, random angles to wind and random distance, range, dial and shoot. This year practicing between 7000-9000 feet, hike, range, dial and shoot boulders. Wife and kids shooting 4-6” groups at 450 yards. Wiser precision adapter converts trek poles to large bipod. Trek poles are adjustable and allow a solid rest and since attached to rifle allows left hand to tuck into shoulder to aim rifle. This adapter is gold as we have yet to see a shot that is prone on the elk we hunt. Between strep slopes and obstacles you need a large bipod. We also use nikon rangefinder and kestrel for atmospheric and then call wind using 5mph in kestrel as baseline. Love your videos, huge help for dialing in our gear and tactics.
I've used the wiser quick-stix quite a bit, good stuff. Sounds like you guys are ready! Glad the videos have been helpful, wish I had more time to get more out. Thanks, Cliff
Great advice. I have been shooting rocks and water jugs since the 1960’s. Angles greater than 30 degrees extend your zero. Put these in you ballistics cheat sheets. Also, study your animal. Know body dimensions and remember them. This is hold adjustments. I would also add that you need to hike to a position and shoot then hike to another. Make a course with different angles, distances, and wind angles. Then get faster. Create muscle memory and learn to shoot fast. I agree totally about the group size. Build target, Olympic, and sniper rifles for years. I have many rifles that are 1/4” to 0 for rifles. Last year my 12 1/2 year old granddaughter drew an elk hunt on the Valle Vidal in NM. She shoot a 7mm Wby Mag with a 155 Federal Terminal Ascent at 3,301 first dirty cold shot. She worked on shooting detergent’s bottles (rinsed and cleaned) full of water. Then down to 1/2 size bottles, then down to clay skeet targets. She shot off sticks, pack with a rest mounted to it,Bi-pod, log and jacket over a rock. The end results was after 3 days of hiking over 30 miles for 9,300 to 10,200 ft in elevation, on Halloween evening dropped a 320 Bull at 375 yards on the 1st shot. In all honesty the rifle shoots about 6/10” MOA but opens up fast due to thin barrel. Why we focus on 1st cold shot placement. If it is a good one, rarely will there need to be a 2nd one.
I was a Small Arms Training range operator in the Canadian Army from 2003-2007. With the C7A1 (Canadian version of the M16, shooting 5.56mm NATO), we did 4x 5-shot groupings prone, unsupported to zero, and then 1 scored group (also prone, unsupported) at 100 meters with an Elcan C79 3.4x Optical gunsight. To get a perfect score on your Personal Weapons Test (PWT), you needed to shot a 150mm, 5 shot group at 100m. This is roughly a 5.3 MOA group. To get 3 points, you had to get a 200m, 5 shot group, at 100m. That is roughly a 7 MOA group. (Over that, you got a 0-score on your grouping score and were likely to fail your weapons test, as the next strings were harder). This was the basic standard for ALL soldiers in the Canadian army (albeit, there were different personal weapons tests that emphasized advanced combat shooting techniques, especially for combat trades). I trained guys who fought in Afghanistan with that as their benchmark level of marksmanship, including a CANSOF operator. 5.56 mm NATO has serious shortcomings past 300 meters, giving rise to the DMR - but if you could shoot better than 5 MOA prone, unsupported consistently, you could land a center of mass hit on a Taliban insurgent out to 250m with a high level of confidence he would be incapacitated... that was enough to get my buddies home alive.
Great video and analysis. Once I’ve sighted in a rifle, I move mostly to practice with sticks: standing, sitting, and kneeling. Where I hunt, I usually end up shooting fairly close while sitting or kneeling in brush after a long stalk. I most often am shooting calm animals, so I tend to have plenty of time to calm down and take a proper shot instead of rushing.
Cliff, just got back from NM. I was guiding my 14 year old granddaughter on public land. After 2 hail storms and 30 miles on foot, she killed a massive 6X8 bull that scored 373.75. I love hunting with kids. Nothing like seeing the excitement on their faces.
A significant % of hunters couldn’t shoot a 3 foot group at 350 yds in field positions! With their rifle that they shoot 1” groups at a 100 yd rifle range from the concrete bench.
Agree 100% with this. As someone who focuses a lot on dialing in reloads the one thing that changes dramatically that you cant account for is how temperature variations will effect your velocity which in turn effects accuracy.
Wind- the reason why a 2 MOA shooter rarely (if ever) equals an 8” group at 400 yards in the real world. Another easy practice option is to find a PCP air gun with similar feel & controls as your hunting rifle. Backyard & small acreage friendly. You can get the long range experience with only 100 yards. And a few bucks of ammo will last all day. And whenever I think I’m doing pretty good, I pick up my flintlock & feel the humility sink in.
This makes a lot of sense to me! I don't hunt in a mountain environment . We hunt in the woods, up close. I like to hang some steel targets and bang away at them like it's a BB gun. Too much settling in at the range makes a person too dependent on routine . Animals don't show up when you are good and ready.
As an experienced marksmen and avid hand loader, i will say handloading a "1 group down to a .5 inch MOA at 100 matters. That can shrink your actual field groups by order of magnitudes. It does matter to understand in field conditions, variables in rest, etc.
Excellent advice and overview. I like the after pronghorn hunt idea. I live in West Virginia which has plenty of angle terrain but is mostly private. I plan on doing a Wyoming mule deer 🦌 and pronghorn hunt in the fall and bringing two rifles. My .270 Win for pronghorn and 300 WSM for mule deer 🦌. Yes I know that either one can easily take both species but I want to put a western species under each one of their belts so to speak
Love it! I watch almost every video when I can because they are informative and hilarious at some level. “Even PETA won’t mind shooting at rocks!” Thank you for sharing.
Low light, cold hands, adrenaline rush, awkward position, bulky clothes, moving target, cant see the numbers on the dials on the scope in the dark blind, fog from breath on the scope lens, switchy wind… haha Ya man… situational/positional shooting training and wind reading is pretty important.
Agree. I believe that field accuracy get 3x worse in the field. People screw up in the trigger squeeze and follow through. You need to talk through the shooting sequence of sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze and follow through. This helps a lot. Also shooting competition brings in stress to your shooting and conditions you.
Just found your channel and really enjoying it so far. Really appreciate you passing on what you know. I am a sufferer of buck-fever-cant-shoot-anymore-itis. This video is for me.
Great video. You have a wicked channel. My question though is if you can’t get to a shooting position where you 100% will put the animal down, are you really hunting? Even if you make that 500 yard shot, do you really deserve that kill? Did you really hunt that animal or did you happen to see it at 500 yards and use your high priced technology to bring it down? I guess because I live in the west and am lucky to get out all the time. I don’t mind blowing a spot on an animal to close the distance because I always learn. I wish we would put more value on the skill aspect of the sport and less on wonder gear and just getting that trophy. After all isn’t the trophy only there to remind you of the experience?
Thanks for the comment. I tend to agree with everything you are saying. To each his own on shot distance, etc... but yes more concentration on skill building and less on gear masturbation would be a good thing for most!
How important is your equipment in getting down to 2-3" group in the field? For example, how important is it to have a rifle that will do a 1" group from the bench, vs a rifle that averages 1.5-2.0 inches from the bench?
The reality is for the vast majority of hunters, given their current level of confidence, it isn’t important at all. Practicing shooting off real world rests, reps shooting under tense situations, etc… are 10x more important.
This is why I barely shoot my rifle and why I dry fire 98% of the time. With dry firing, I can practice follow through, angle shot, different shooting positions and etc. And all for free and doesn't wear my barrel out. And at the comfort of my own home. And did I mention I save on driving time and gas?
Adrenaline, nerves, awkward stances, temp differences, altitude differences, using different ammo to zero, poorly mounted optics + people generally lying about their groups = YOUR FINDINGS
Buck fever takes a good shooter and turns him to jelly. I have a friend whom I've hunted with for years. He is good for the first shot but if the animal doesn't go down he just as well put his rifle away because it will be luck if he hits again.
If thats the case, then you need more magnification or a finer cross hair...id say magnification. A 4 power scope isnt enough for 400 yards in a hunting situation.
I took several from Ward Brian, Mountain Shooting School. I’m not sure if Ward is still teaching civilian courses, or if he is only doing military classes nowadays. Hope that helps
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Your videos only get better. I’ve just spent over two hours watching them, from mountain thermals to the most recent glassing tips, and this practical marksmanship set. I’ve gotta say man, these have proven to be invaluable for me in prepping for my hunts and staying sharp off-season. Thanks for all the effort you put into these
Hey Sean, appreciate the feedback. Glad they are helpful. Thanks, Cliff
Wonderful content. I cannot stop watching your videos. As a novice elk hunter from the East who heads to the West to hunt, these are all things I have thought about but your vast experience really put things in perspective. Thanks for doing this.
@@CliffGray you gotta walk before you can run. Don't poopoo range time. Most guys don't know how to hold a gun consistently. They flinch. They need to learn their weapon. Yes, you need to practice real world shooting, with wind, and breathing and all that. But most guys can barely shoot well at a range. If a guy can't get sub moa at a range he needs work. He should be a good range shooter, and then expand to real world.
growing up we always used a paper plate. 3rds in the plate and your good to go in vitals. I didn't worry about precision until my time in mil and later on at the range
I just went into local mountains & shot pretty much level but my rear rest set up wasn't the best. Out of 7 shots only 5 hit an 8.5 x 11 paper target at 550 yards. 2 other shots at a clanger were taken with only one hitting. Yes, you have to practice with what works for you! Thanks Cliff! I'll get out more & shoot in real life.
Ive experienced this first hand. A 300yd prone shot on a whitetail is waaaaay different than ringing a 6” steel target at the same distance and position. Recovered the deer but it changed my mind on longish shots on game. My daughter, (who is a lights out shooter and understands variables) barely missed the vitals of a mule deer at 437yds. We never recovered the animal despite full evening and full morning of tracking. It broke her heart. We learned from that. Wind is a big big deal. Appreciate your real world knowledge. Great vid. Helpful.
for sure. You mention wind - such a big one that we discount up in the mountains. Just looking at a ballistics chart at distances above 400yds will open some folks ideas on how much the wind matters. So hard to call wind up there...
Last year we practiced in high dessert, random angles to wind and random distance, range, dial and shoot. This year practicing between 7000-9000 feet, hike, range, dial and shoot boulders. Wife and kids shooting 4-6” groups at 450 yards. Wiser precision adapter converts trek poles to large bipod. Trek poles are adjustable and allow a solid rest and since attached to rifle allows left hand to tuck into shoulder to aim rifle. This adapter is gold as we have yet to see a shot that is prone on the elk we hunt. Between strep slopes and obstacles you need a large bipod. We also use nikon rangefinder and kestrel for atmospheric and then call wind using 5mph in kestrel as baseline. Love your videos, huge help for dialing in our gear and tactics.
I've used the wiser quick-stix quite a bit, good stuff. Sounds like you guys are ready! Glad the videos have been helpful, wish I had more time to get more out. Thanks, Cliff
Great advice. I have been shooting rocks and water jugs since the 1960’s. Angles greater than 30 degrees extend your zero. Put these in you ballistics cheat sheets. Also, study your animal. Know body dimensions and remember them. This is hold adjustments.
I would also add that you need to hike to a position and shoot then hike to another. Make a course with different angles, distances, and wind angles. Then get faster. Create muscle memory and learn to shoot fast.
I agree totally about the group size. Build target, Olympic, and sniper rifles for years. I have many rifles that are 1/4” to 0 for rifles.
Last year my 12 1/2 year old granddaughter drew an elk hunt on the Valle Vidal in NM. She shoot a 7mm Wby Mag with a 155 Federal Terminal Ascent at 3,301 first dirty cold shot. She worked on shooting detergent’s bottles (rinsed and cleaned) full of water. Then down to 1/2 size bottles, then down to clay skeet targets. She shot off sticks, pack with a rest mounted to it,Bi-pod, log and jacket over a rock.
The end results was after 3 days of hiking over 30 miles for 9,300 to 10,200 ft in elevation, on Halloween evening dropped a 320 Bull at 375 yards on the 1st shot.
In all honesty the rifle shoots about 6/10” MOA but opens up fast due to thin barrel. Why we focus on 1st cold shot placement. If it is a good one, rarely will there need to be a 2nd one.
Thanks Jeffery. Some great additional thoughts. Congrats to your granddaughter and to you on being an epic grandpa to take her elk hunting 👍
I was a Small Arms Training range operator in the Canadian Army from 2003-2007.
With the C7A1 (Canadian version of the M16, shooting 5.56mm NATO), we did 4x 5-shot groupings prone, unsupported to zero, and then 1 scored group (also prone, unsupported) at 100 meters with an Elcan C79 3.4x Optical gunsight.
To get a perfect score on your Personal Weapons Test (PWT), you needed to shot a 150mm, 5 shot group at 100m. This is roughly a 5.3 MOA group.
To get 3 points, you had to get a 200m, 5 shot group, at 100m. That is roughly a 7 MOA group. (Over that, you got a 0-score on your grouping score and were likely to fail your weapons test, as the next strings were harder).
This was the basic standard for ALL soldiers in the Canadian army (albeit, there were different personal weapons tests that emphasized advanced combat shooting techniques, especially for combat trades).
I trained guys who fought in Afghanistan with that as their benchmark level of marksmanship, including a CANSOF operator.
5.56 mm NATO has serious shortcomings past 300 meters, giving rise to the DMR - but if you could shoot better than 5 MOA prone, unsupported consistently, you could land a center of mass hit on a Taliban insurgent out to 250m with a high level of confidence he would be incapacitated... that was enough to get my buddies home alive.
Very practical and real world advice. You know what you’re talking about. You deserve a lot more subscribers
Thanks Harold, I really appreciate the support.
Great video and analysis. Once I’ve sighted in a rifle, I move mostly to practice with sticks: standing, sitting, and kneeling. Where I hunt, I usually end up shooting fairly close while sitting or kneeling in brush after a long stalk. I most often am shooting calm animals, so I tend to have plenty of time to calm down and take a proper shot instead of rushing.
I’m keen to go on an Alaskan hunt, and am anticipating that I’ll have to stretch my comfort zone, in terms of range and shooting positions.
Cliff, just got back from NM. I was guiding my 14 year old granddaughter on public land. After 2 hail storms and 30 miles on foot, she killed a massive 6X8 bull that scored 373.75. I love hunting with kids. Nothing like seeing the excitement on their faces.
Thanks for the info Cliff. Several years did just that. We all got antelope but most fun we had was shooting rocks across a draw.
For sure! Thanks for the comment Ralph hope all is good
No one thinks about wind, temps,altitude, up versus down hill shots. heart rate the list goes on 👊🏻
Absolutely
A significant % of hunters couldn’t shoot a 3 foot group at 350 yds in field positions! With their rifle that they shoot 1” groups at a 100 yd rifle range from the concrete bench.
True!
Agree 100% with this. As someone who focuses a lot on dialing in reloads the one thing that changes dramatically that you cant account for is how temperature variations will effect your velocity which in turn effects accuracy.
Wind- the reason why a 2 MOA shooter rarely (if ever) equals an 8” group at 400 yards in the real world. Another easy practice option is to find a PCP air gun with similar feel & controls as your hunting rifle. Backyard & small acreage friendly. You can get the long range experience with only 100 yards. And a few bucks of ammo will last all day. And whenever I think I’m doing pretty good, I pick up my flintlock & feel the humility sink in.
This makes a lot of sense to me! I don't hunt in a mountain environment . We hunt in the woods, up close. I like to hang some steel targets and bang away at them like it's a BB gun. Too much settling in at the range makes a person too dependent on routine . Animals don't show up when you are good and ready.
good way to do it! realistic practice is best
As an experienced marksmen and avid hand loader, i will say handloading a "1 group down to a .5 inch MOA at 100 matters.
That can shrink your actual field groups by order of magnitudes. It does matter to understand in field conditions, variables in rest, etc.
Excellent advice and overview. I like the after pronghorn hunt idea. I live in West Virginia which has plenty of angle terrain but is mostly private.
I plan on doing a Wyoming mule deer 🦌 and pronghorn hunt in the fall and bringing two rifles. My .270 Win for pronghorn and 300 WSM for mule deer 🦌. Yes I know that either one can easily take both species but I want to put a western species under each one of their belts so to speak
good luck on those hunts! fun ones
@@CliffGray thank you 🙏 very much and I believe that they will be fun. Perfect first western hunt.
Love it! I watch almost every video when I can because they are informative and hilarious at some level.
“Even PETA won’t mind shooting at rocks!” Thank you for sharing.
haha! thanks man
Low light, cold hands, adrenaline rush, awkward position, bulky clothes, moving target, cant see the numbers on the dials on the scope in the dark blind, fog from breath on the scope lens, switchy wind… haha
Ya man… situational/positional shooting training and wind reading is pretty important.
Agree. I believe that field accuracy get 3x worse in the field. People screw up in the trigger squeeze and follow through. You need to talk through the shooting sequence of sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze and follow through. This helps a lot. Also shooting competition brings in stress to your shooting and conditions you.
I think the competition is probably a great route for folks… no experience myself but sounds fun and great for the skillset
Just found your channel and really enjoying it so far. Really appreciate you passing on what you know. I am a sufferer of buck-fever-cant-shoot-anymore-itis. This video is for me.
glad to help! we all can get a little buck fever!
Great video man, thank you.
Great video. You have a wicked channel. My question though is if you can’t get to a shooting position where you 100% will put the animal down, are you really hunting? Even if you make that 500 yard shot, do you really deserve that kill? Did you really hunt that animal or did you happen to see it at 500 yards and use your high priced technology to bring it down?
I guess because I live in the west and am lucky to get out all the time. I don’t mind blowing a spot on an animal to close the distance because I always learn.
I wish we would put more value on the skill aspect of the sport and less on wonder gear and just getting that trophy. After all isn’t the trophy only there to remind you of the experience?
Thanks for the comment. I tend to agree with everything you are saying.
To each his own on shot distance, etc... but yes more concentration on skill building and less on gear masturbation would be a good thing for most!
@@CliffGray Leave my 12 gauge out of it!
As a former Marine Sniper (‘03-‘07) with 3 deployments under my belt I promise everything he just said is accurate.
thanks man! appreciate it
I know this is an older video, but squirrel hunting can give you a lot of experience on uphill angles.
For sure 👍
How important is your equipment in getting down to 2-3" group in the field? For example, how important is it to have a rifle that will do a 1" group from the bench, vs a rifle that averages 1.5-2.0 inches from the bench?
The reality is for the vast majority of hunters, given their current level of confidence, it isn’t important at all. Practicing shooting off real world rests, reps shooting under tense situations, etc… are 10x more important.
Just found your channel...Great job Lots of info
What kind of range finder are you using?? Im looking for range finding Binos vortex or Sig
I love your content!
This is why I barely shoot my rifle and why I dry fire 98% of the time. With dry firing, I can practice follow through, angle shot, different shooting positions and etc. And all for free and doesn't wear my barrel out. And at the comfort of my own home. And did I mention I save on driving time and gas?
not a bad approach!
How tight should you pull the rifle in your shoulder pocket when firing something like a 7mm mag? I know it’s a very rookie question.
Adrenaline, nerves, awkward stances, temp differences, altitude differences, using different ammo to zero, poorly mounted optics + people generally lying about their groups = YOUR FINDINGS
Pretty much! 👍
Buck fever takes a good shooter and turns him to jelly. I have a friend whom I've hunted with for years. He is good for the first shot but if the animal doesn't go down he just as well put his rifle away because it will be luck if he hits again.
At 400 yds, your crosshairs cover up the entire animal. It’s tough!
If thats the case, then you need more magnification or a finer cross hair...id say magnification. A 4 power scope isnt enough for 400 yards in a hunting situation.
Did you say Ward Ryan?
Ward Brein
Backfire proved how ineffective RUclips commenters are.
Was totally epic.
What was the name of the long range class you took?
I took several from Ward Brian, Mountain Shooting School. I’m not sure if Ward is still teaching civilian courses, or if he is only doing military classes nowadays. Hope that helps
Need I say it .. you are 100% dead on ..no pun intended
Ha!
If I was shooting 13inch grp at 300 yards I'd retire
Won’t other hunters get mad if you start blasting in the field?
Don't do it during hunting season, or go shoot in an area that isn't a hunting area.
What scope was mounted on that tikka?
Nightforce NXS 50mm
30% hit rate?
Id get fired so fast as a guide. Lol
A good shot with a bad rifle will out shoot a piss poor shot with a great rifle every time.