After so many years, I have piles of loot that I've never equipped. I like crafting because it saves vault space and gives you control of the gear. I'm a solo player so raids are not in my wheelhouse.
It is crazy to me that anyone wants crafting gone. I want my reason to engage with the game to be to have FUN, not just to jump through hoops for a chance to pull the lever on the slot machine. I agree with you about crafting actually increasing my engagement with certain raids. It gives a tangible reward to look forward to and respects my time.
Absolutely nothing crazy. Crafting made non-redborder craftable weapons auto-dismantle. This removes excitement from all those drops. For that reason, I don't like crafting. But I like it because crafting gives clear progression path. Actually, Tizzle highlighted pros and cons very precisely.
@@alexander.sabinin hear me out right... just make it so you can enhance random drops of craftable weapons. They did it with raid adepts and those are non craftable random drops that are a significantly better system than just being able to enhance your trait perks on worlddrop weapons even if most adepts aren't worth going after.
Everyone i play with regularly far prefers cafting. We play a lot. Even after all the red borders, we still played. But then we were able to play with awesome new weapons
Yeah see there are two different sides for Destiny, there is the loot Chase and build crafting/actually playing with your loot. And I agree with you, since I'm more of a build crafter, it's fun to mess around with different perks and the game is way more enjoyable to me being able to use different rolls of weapons. I don't like not getting a perk combo I want to try out because of RNG.
Yeah crafting is awesome, I’ve completed warlords ruin 164 times and still haven’t gotten the coveted lead from gold/volt shot indebted kindness, crafting would clear this frustration up.
I think some kind of knockout system would maybe balance the scales. I’ve been after an Eddy Current/Jolting Feedback AR in VH the second reset hit and API unmasked the vespers loot pool. I have had 200+ drops of that AR now easily and still don’t have that roll. I think we need to find a balance between crafting a god roll an hour after the content drops and having to suffer hundreds of runs to get what you want. Neither are good for playerbase retention. I’m a prime example too of Tizzle’s point on raid loot. Literally haven’t run Salvations a single time since I unlocked my last pattern and I didn’t hate the raid at all.
But rng is literally broken. That doesn't mean rng is a bad thing. It means bungie fucked up. You ran it 164 because of perk weighting. It's not functioning as intended. If it was working as intended, you might realise rng can actually be cool. A way to be excited about the things that drop from a chest. Of course it's hard to get excited though when the system is broken
@@oxsila What about guns without the perk weighting bug affecting them all that much? Do we even know if Indebted Kindness was affected? Also, risking running anything 164 times is NOT something to be excited about at all. There needs to be a way of eventually guaranteeing the roll you want. I'm not sure why Bungie doesn't just copy/paste Necrochasm's method of obtaining a weapon, which balances both RNG (early Oversoul jackpot) with a sense of progression (requires 20 Oversoul to obtain).
i settled for my beacon rounds volt shot roll. Because that is the only volt shot i have ever gotten to drop. I don’t mind dungeons not having crafting but i wish we could attune or something to weight the drops.
His example is literally what's happening to me right now lol. 2010 on everything but legs. This is week 4. Granted, I don't do ALL the pinnacle activities in the game but since I can't guarantee they'll drop for me anyway, I just do 2 or 3 and hope for the best.
Red borders was revolutionary and it would attract people that wouldn’t want to grind in a game. Grinding only works if you don’t end up with time that felt wasted. Grind dungeon for a specific drop, or stay OT at work for the same time.
I haven't even worried about getting a good roll for Velocity Baton because it honestly feels like it would be a waste, I have one and it'll probably fill the role I need it to if I throw it on. I also got my indebted kindness from banshee and don't plan on farming the first encounter for the "god roll" the only reason I'll keep going into it is because I want buried bloodline
I am pro red border and crafting, not because I don’t want to grind the game, but because I don’t want to be forced to play a specific activity that I don’t find appealing over and over again for the sake of a drop. I prefer to grind activities or go for challenges that I find more enjoyable. Having guarantee behind the activities I am required to do frees me up for things I want to do instead
@ I agree man. I stopped playing for a while, but returned to join raid LFGs. The game has been more enjoyable this way, and I haven’t felt like I’m missing out until this season
You are not an anomaly. Many of us want crafting. Also raid loot stopped being the pinnacle of weapons since WQ. Crafting has little to do with it. Putting raid perks on random weapons outside raids was a large mistake that took more away from them then crafting did.
@oxsila No, I play pve exclusively. I only have the pulse crafted, and even then, it's just another incandescent primary: We have the world drop sidearm. The Kingfall hand cannon. Lunas howl. Calus mini tool. And now this... There's just no real reason to want this unless you really like pulses. We already have enough incan primaries... People keep saying the bow is good, but I have legit not seen a single person use it since the raid launched. People reviewed it, and then nobody used it, "legendary trinity ghoul" my ass... I shouldn't have to explain why the glaive and sword aren't good. I see the SMG used a lot by some people, but that one is completely on me it just doesn't seem like something I would use im not a fan of SMGs anymore after the HC and Pulse buffs in PvE. Idk if it's just me, but I really dont understand the hype for the salvations edge weapons they're all sidegrades at best or garbage at worst.
Nobody meantions that even without crafting, there is still a point where you are done with an activity. Non-crafting just makes us grind longer or give up and take a less desirable roll. I'm still not running a 3 year old raid etc
I absolutely love crafting. Most of the people I've heard say they aren't keen on it have spent the time, gotten it all, & now don't engage with the content. I definitely think there's room for work on the crafting system to benefit everyone more but I can't say I've ever felt like I'm missing out by just being able to reshape a different perk or something. It's made me step out of my comfort zone more & actually use different perks since I can opt to swap them out. Weightgate doesn't give me hope in the idea of "you'll get it eventually" when there's no form of bad luck mitigation or any way for me to slowly chip away it it. I get the roll or I don't, that's it
Hey Tizz, I really appreciate the discussion going on here. I made a post on your community post regarding changes players would like to see in D2 regarding weapon crafting and the points you posit in this video really highlights the value of crafting to someone - like me - who craves a bit of a loot grind. I highlight the possibility for a hybrid system on my aforementioned post whereby you could use the crafting system to enable players to change one or more of the columns in an otherwise RNG weapon. However, I love the idea of adding a system (as you mention) like ritual activities giving multiple perk selections and weapon attunement. The Vesper’s Host grind really highlights why I hate a pure RNG based system. I just want my attrition orbs demon baton to open up build crafting. I love love love Vesper’s host as a dungeon but grinding the first or 2nd encounter for a possibility at my coveted roll just feels bad man. It’s burning me out and making me not want to play my favorite dungeon. Also, this style of play isn’t encouraging me to engage with or master the dungeon. Why not make it so some of the triumphs (that increase ice breaker drop chance) increase the chance at getting triple or double perks? That encourages mastery of the dungeon at the very least!
I'm with you on this one, I love crafting especially for limited time stuff like sessions. As a PvP main, my enjoyment is getting better at PvP, not a never ending grind for something that will most likely just get vaulted right after I get it.
I absolutely love crafting, that is probably not a novel statement. Having said that your solution of multiple perk columns and attunement is a reasonable alternative IMHO. The attunement on exotic class items made a massive difference.
I've been thinking this for a while but having a world where crafting exists AND a deterministic path to multiple perks on a weapon would be FANTASTIC. I would feel rewarded with my ability to craft a seasonal weapon but would still play an activity if it meant the same weapon could drop with double or triple the perks. Ex. I've been using Lost Signal a lot this season but have to frequently go back to Mars to recraft the weapon depending on if I use it in the new dungeon or CoE. If I could grind last season's activities to get a Lost Signal with the 4 perks I want, I'd STILL be playing those activities.
I have 2 lost signal. Auto-loading and then OFA / Vorpal. If I could farm for a roll that had both in one, with reasonable rng protection, I’d be farming that all the time
i never fully understood the anti-crafting crowd. if you don't like crafting and wanna grind for your rolls, then just do it lol. if u don't like crafting don't craft.
This feels like a pretty bad faith argument, nobody is against crafting because they “don’t like crafting and wanna grind”, they’re anti-crafting because it has diluted the loot chase down to a checklist that can be completed just by playing for like 15 minutes every week. Craftable weapons were also objectively superior to random rolls until rather recently. As long as crafting is the intended method of getting a god roll and not a means of bad luck protection, anti-crafters are absolutely valid in their criticisms.
@@turntwiggy Omg.. I hate the loot chase argument. In order to unlock alll the patterns in the salvation's edge raid, it took 9 clears, 1 raid per week. Before you roll your eyes and say just 1 raid? Yes, 1 raid because that's what most people have time for. Majority of players can't even engage with raids because of how time consuming they are or not able to put together a team. If there was no crafting and it was a slot machine, I wouldn't even have bothered playing the raid more than 1 or 2 times. Mind you, it was 9 clears because I used 3-4 deepsight harmonizers. If that wasn't there, another 3-4 clears...12 clears of a raid which is around 12 weeks for most players to unlock all patterns is a fair grind imo. Yeah, hardcore players will have it unlocked in 2-3 weeks but that's the reward for playing more. Making it a slot machine is just demoralizing.
If you don’t like [system] don’t participate in [system] is almost never a good argument. Obviously no one’s gonna handicap themselves when the system is in the game(unless you’re part of a very niche crowd doing some challenge or something). They can use the mechanic and still not like the mechanic.
@@turntwiggytalk about a bad faith argument, the chase is RIGHT THERE. You’re looking at 199 McNuggets and because someone’s got a bacon double cheeseburger on the next table you just can’t eat a nugget? The nugget is worthless to you? You didn’t even want a cheeseburger. Why are you jealous of the cheeseburger? Eat your nuggets.
@@turntwiggy you missed the part where if you're going into something like a raid just to chase godrolls, the exotic, or for the title not because the raid drops materials you need or you enjoy it you are quite literally filling a checklist. The checklist argument has ALWAYS been in bad faith because of that and yall act like there is any sort of incentive to chase random rolls of weapons over crafting just because you Stockholm syndromed yourselves into believing you enjoyed having to run the same raid once a week on all 3 characters just to barely get a 3/5 drop if even that, just to throw the roll in the vault to gather dust because 1. Its not exactly what you're looking for and 2. You burned out on the game being forced to play content you don't really enjoy to get loot to take into content you would enjoy. Its never been about crafting being a checklist or being excited about getting the random drop godroll, but its absolutely been about people parroting the same "argument" over and over without even giving it any thought. Y'all are no better than the people that chase dopamine opening CSGO cases or the people who WANT loot boxes in video games.
Wow, it is so nice to see a content creator echo my exact sentiments on crafting/loot. Like you, I get my fun from using unique builds and actually PLAYING the game. As you said, I don't need a carrot to want to play, I just enjoy it. That said, I do enjoy having a goal that I know is achievable. As a result, I've barely played the seasonal content this season due to how bad the reward structure is. It feels like no matter how much effort I put in there, I'm not gonna get what I want so I may as well spend my time on something in the game that seems doable. I've spent basically all my time grinding Wicked Sister and even though I haven't gotten the roll I want after 5 resets, it feels like a significantly less shitty grind because at least with the resets I have a way to deterministically increase my odds of getting the roll as time goes. My favorite part of the season honestly has been getting the patterns for the Garden weapons. Had they not made those craftable, I would not have touched Garden all season, but now I've spent 10+ hours in that raid as a result of the red borders. I have barely even used them, but I'm a completionist and that still gave me a light at the end of the tunnel, therefore being enjoyable to me. I just hate the attitude from crafting-hating creators of "oh no, there's no crafting, you'll actually have to play the game now". I promise I'll play the game either way. If there's crafting, most of my time will be spent testing new builds and weapons in activities I enjoy and would recommend to friends. With no crafting, I'm toiling away at an activity I don't like, ending my play sessions disappointed. I wish there was a toggle for "I don't need the carrot actually, give me crafting" lol
Amen. Look at axial lacuna - would I have ever used that fusion if I didn’t just happen to have the pattern and wanted to try out some fusion perk combos? Definitely not!
I loved the red border system. I've been playing since day 1 Destiny and it was a great release to finally be able to get the exact rolls i wanted after 10 years of almost never getting the desired rolls let alone a 5/5. I've been playing onslaught trying to get a arsenal/Chill Liturgy and at this point I'd kill just for a 2/5 roll! And if it wasn't for red borders in Garden I would have never touched that dammit raid again! Had to beg friends to rerun it a few times to get my auto and fusion!
The red border system was fantastic, however, they went too far right out of the gate in that they gave crafting enhanced perks and made rng weapons pointless. So now we have crafted weapons AND rng weapons with enhanced perks. Enhanced perks should've only ever been on rng weapons and then that would make it fine to just give EVERY single weapon in the game the ability to be crafted. The issue now is, crafters are used to having enhanced perks. So there's no way they can go back and make crafted weapons not have enhanced perks. It's cooked.
In my own experience, Crafting was and is a great motivation for me to get into activities that I otherwise wouldn’t do. I hate raiding with randoms (my friends stopped playing a while back), but getting the weapons patterns gets me to return to that raid with randoms on a far more regular basis than I otherwise would have. Without it I would probably try a raid once and then rarely run it again. I’ve even had times where I ended up getting the godroll for the weapon before I’ve even gotten all the red boarders for said weapon, yet I kept playing to get the full weapon pattern. Without crafting, I’d have just left there and never come back. I’ve also found myself grinding raids just to get red boarders for weapons that I don’t even really want, just for the sake of having them available and completed. Without crafting I’d certainly not do any of that whatsoever. The same applies to seasonal weapons as well. Edit: Turns out you mentioned these very points in your video lol.
Crafting is great for a lot of reasons. I especially like it because I can change perks if they nerf/buff something. I mostly just play for fun though, so weapon drops are just a bonus to add on, not replace my fun.
Crafting is better tbh. Chasing god rolls wastes my time. Iron banner wastes my time as a PVE player when i just want two guns. Randy god roll and chill clip sidearm. The RNG loot pool seems like it's not fixed either, recognisable rolls are still dropping.
If loot drops we're consistently better, I wouldn't miss crafting. I don't have time to engage too seriously as I have a family and a full time job, so crafting is a big benefit to me. Anyway, here's my two cents. Crafting needs to be available, but random drops should have the possibility of getting premium perks/combinations. Sure, you can use the encalve to get that 140 hand cannon with the roll of triple-tap and frenzy (Austringer PvE classic). But, if you want the adept version with explosive payload and chaos reshaped...well...you'll just have to wait for RNJesus to bless you. I think the real enjoyment for most in PvE comes down to build crafting. In order to build craft, you need specific tools, and while those tools should require some challenge to acquire, those challenges need an element of consistency. If you need an Arc LMG with demolitionist to finish you latest mad scientist experiment, you should be allowed to get exactly that after a certain level of engagement (assuming the thing you want actually exists).
I get the feeling crafting vs rng really comes down to personality. I see crafting as an option to get a god roll weapon so I can do harder content. Some people enjoy the thrill of getting the god roll randomly. I have never enjoyed gambling in Vegas, but I understand why people do. I'm sure there's a balance between the two somewhere.
Thanks for all the good content you’ve been putting out lately. I know these videos take time, energy, commitment and a love for the game. You have become one of the most respected voices in Destiny for me. Regarding crafting, I like to have the weapons crafted because they feel like a weapon was designed just for me. It’s something that feels really unique and special. The same people that complained about crafting weapons are the same people complaining that they can’t get the weapons they want in 2 runs of the seasonal content. Now we wait for the knee jerk reaction by Bungie…
Bro, multi perks are truly the best! Vault space is the most valuable resource in the game to me. Even if I already have the godroll, I'd grind for multiperks. In fact, I hated that bungie took away the multiperk world drops. They are instadelete now.
deterministic way to eventually achieve the intended goal is the absolute key......that is well said..... crafting was awesome....I sure hope they bring it back
100% yay. Crafting is the best. I can actually play the game with the guns that I want in a game that I paid for. It's great. Why would anyone want crafting gone. Only people with no jobs or other responsibilities would want it gone. Can't believe we would want less fun in a world that's so busy. I just want to be able to work towards something with the limited time I have and actually get it in the end and eventually play with said item. The enjoyment comes from using the cool item, not just getting it and then grinding for the next item.
The reputation reset/extra perk columns for ALL vendors is THE answer!Everybody wins (even though I wouldn't put it past Bungie to fuck with perk weighting again) The tonic system (working correctly)could still work along side this for the seasonal stuff .The reason I like crafting is mainly for my neverending lack of vault space that Bungo don't seem to care too much about.With crafting I don't have to be afraid to delete any of it .Exotic class items also need to be pulled from collections that would free up 100 slots for me .Great video Tizzle let's thumbs it up for exposure to Bungo!
I have been saying for awhile now they need to bring back the way the season of the Dawn was. That season was awesome and so was the activity. Anyway, the way it was setup is when you got through the activity, you got to select what weapon you wanted depending on what totem (i think that is what they were) you were linked to. If you did the activity right, you got to select what weapons you wanted to focus and you got to get about 4 or 5 of them per activity. It was awesome. Bring that type of thing back. Make it kind of like the raids where you can interact with the chest and select what you want. I don't mind RNG at all, but going through the activity and being able to grab what you want feels rewarding. Keep red borders limited and let us do that. I get excited when i get the God roll i am looking for. Like the God Roll Gridskipper i got. They need to have a balance of valuing people's time and RNG to where you can still have RNG, but still go after what you want.
They should change crafting to the actual perks that are dropped. You may get all of the perks found within 7 or 8 drops along with the red borders. But maybe you still have yet to get incandescent. You will have to keep farming to unlock that weapon perk within crafting. This will elongate the time it takes to have weapon fully unlocked. This also helps with weight gate issues. As long as the perk drops on a random roll it's unlocked for that weapon in crafting. That's my take on how to update and blend the issues we are having. Bring back crafting. Maybe for artifice armor too. I was also locked out for 4 weeks trying to get a warlock bond to be at max light. Incredibly frustrating. Great video
I think what you said at the end really nails it BOTH crafting and non crafting players just want some level of agency in their drops THATS IT everyone wins. And that’s coming form someone who’s pretty decently anti crafting even though I utilize it
For me, it's the same situation for you when you mentioned Salvation's Edge. A thing with me in D1 was I would go back to old missions and such not for loot, but to just mess around and have fun. Ever since Duality and Bungie making exotic drops random instead of a quest like Ghorn or Wish-ender, getting that exotic is when my time in those activities end. Even D1 raids were fun to go back to and mess around in, but D2 ones for reprised raids and Salvation's Edge include champs which take away the fun of the game for me. Them taking away Leviathan also killed it for me as that was a fun raid to do on repeat and was a good way to introduce players to D2 raiding. Taking that away removed quite a lot for the game (both literally and figuratively) to where it hurt too much. Hell, crafting these days doesn't feel worth it to me either at this point ever since Bungie made everything power disabled/minus power so the fun for me has been drained away since the power system that has been a thing for years is now gone and replaced with a terrible, artificial difficulty system.
I started during the Dawning in season of the seraph. The fact that I could grind to get the season weopons crafted made me chase those and the I started grinding for raid red boarders. I was very hesitant to do because I'm more solo and don't like dealing with the toxicity of wiping and the person who was helping us understand and clear ends up leaving. So, it was amazing to be able to catch up and be a little prepared for lightfall. It made me grind dungeons and other activities due to wanting all types of gear because of the artifact always changing. I can go into a season excited to use the weopons I've grinded for. The fact that dungeons, World weopons, crucible, iron banner, trials, crucible, comp, and of course gambit. These are my grinding weopons that I have to combat bungie horrible RNG. I've chased so many weopons and can't get the rolls I want or due to being able to reset some activities to increase perk drops on weopons strongly helps to make me grind more. Now I have to live in the season activity focusing weopons that don't drop what you focus for and how much can they expect you to play onslaught, or tomb of elders hoping for weopons to never get meanwhile trying to chase all the other weopons in the game. There isn't enough time in a day for an average player to ever get stuff in the game. Some people get to live in destiny while others have to live life and enjoy destiny but spend so much time grinding for now nothing due to the weopons not dropping rolls even after bungie supposedly fixed random drops. Out of 100 engrams I never got 1 single roll of air trigger chill clip. Of course I'd love to have crafting!!! I'm tired of getting screwed every way in the game and at least felt I could win some with crafting. Now I feel like this is the most grinding season I've ever played just to get partial god rolls.
THANK YOU! most people are missing that AGENCY is what the serious grinders want, not always determinism on the final loot. I got every single 4/4 from OG onslaught (barrel/mag/both perks) via rng and three were shinys because I put in the time and knew I had a decent chance at it. but this season, I don't have a single 5/5, I've stopped at just getting the two perks because tonics are awful and you just get less loot per run than OG. throughout the game, people don't actually have a problem with RNG loot per se, but the lack of ability to meaningfully improve your chance at a roll. why can't we focus weapons in the dungeon? why does IB focusing cost so much glimmer? why are tonics not working??? why can't we get multiple perks on comp/trials/ib/seasonal/dungeon weapons for being higher rank? bungie is going to take the wrong lesson from this season that players want crafting back so they play more. but actually, they just want to feel rewarded for their time, and maintain the chase. into the light was a massive success but they didn't replicate any of the increased agency or amount of loot
Personally I was pretty happy with the way the crafting system was. I love being able to tweak a weapon to get the right feel or experiment with different perk combinations. Chasing patterns has been my main way of engaging with the game the past few years, even now.
Someone from Bungie should hire this man. I would love a deterministic method for obtaining a given roll, which still retains the hype of getting a 'random' god roll.
8:48 I want to and here, why not let banshee resets increase the perks on LEGEND/MASTER lost sectors, keep the weapons rotation, but if i have reset banshee a lot, let this sectors also get the múltiple godrolls in 1 gun, not just a small chance at it
100% this is by far the best video on weapons drops. I have 0 god rolls of the seasonal weapons and I just can't bring myself to grind more for them. Contest of Elders is fun but after grinding Onslaught all of act 1 and not getting the rolls I want, I just don't want to do Contest of Elders over and over
I think keeping weapons craftable is important, so you can always get the roll you want no matter how bad your RNG is. However, I think Enhanchement should only be allowed on naturally dropped weapons. It would make those drops special, and give people the loot chase they want if they want the extra boost that enhanced weapons give.
Tbh, the reason I played died long ago. I know a lot think it’s weird or boring, but I loved farming raids. Learning tech for encounters, skips and speeds. But that shit died out. Went to low man’s, but I can’t even skull drag people through trio wish/vog like I used to. Crafting, I like. I always thought that it should take multiple runs to get one red border outside of the guaranteed weekly. Makes people get better and in turn, find that the game is a lot deeper than shoot and loot.
About your point for increasing your Light Level @ 6:24, I disagree with parts of this. Agency is part of it, sure, but for me, and basically everyone that I used to play with but have since quit, it's the WHY? Why should I have to "level up" my character to redo activities that I had access to a season ago? Why "level up" my gear and weapons when the same guns I had 4 years ago do the same shit? Origin perks are lazy and boring, completely ignore-able "upgrades" from previous weapons. The weapons are just side-grades of each other, with no real character progression. Instead it's all about just creating a "toolbox" of stuff to putz around with, without any true standout weapons that incentivise you to keep playing. What the heck is the point of weapon rarities when all you use is legendary's within the first 2 hours of the game anyways? Everything is so damned safe in D2, there is hardly a reason to build-craft beyond the enjoyment of it, and it all amounts to ability spam of the same abilities you already have access to anyways. You still kill shit quickly with a bog-standard loadout, even in GMs (i've gilded my Conqueror title a few times with basic ass gear and perks). Raid SHOULD be the reason, but they all amount to communication puzzles rather than challenging combat encounters that require these builds. The attributes in the game are boring and too balanced for the sake of PVP. When I started my D2 journey years ago, I had hoped it'd provide deep RPG systems, where you can feel your character get stronger. This game, isn't that. With the current foundations the game is built on, that will NEVER happen. Add stuff like perk rarities, where you can individually upgrade each perk on a weapon within a finite energy system akin to armor or something, so if you want an Exotic tier version of Kill Clip, you can. More player progression is sorely needed in a game that has been out for so long. Add unique effects to your character when you reach a certain attribute threshold, to make a character with 200 resilience or mobility or discipline actually MEAN something. The outlined ideas in that Armor Update article about having a potential bonus charge to your grenade when you have really high Discipline is... something I guess, but that is just lazy man. You just get to do more of the same? Why not provide extended durations, new effects or higher damage or something instead? Idk man, Bungie just seems scared to INNOVATE their game. Sorry for the tangent that won't get read anyways.
Dropping seasonal AND dungeon crafting in the same episode was definitely a choice... Likely to up playtime during a slow year. Like you said, Revenant's loot structure is abysmal.
I like crafting. I don't want to be reduced to forever chasing loot just because many people seem to have a gambling addictiin and need the "thrill" of getting a 5/5 to drop, then put it in the vault and never use it. I played the Coil to get red borders. I have not touched Tomb of Elders beyond the required run for the story mission. I'm not interested in running the hamster wheel while gambling on rng.
My issue with the anti crafting people is that they aren't fixing the issue by getting rid of crafting. Like, if your problem is that you stop engaging with activities because you got the patterns, that'll happen when you get the god roll anyways. It happens with every raid whether you get the patterns or not for some people. For some they start to even feel upset that it didn't drop what they wanted after forever because they dont actually enjoy the activity, and being forced to constantly do it for the god roll is ridiculous. Crafting isnt the problem, loot outside of guns and fun activities are. When armor becomes important again and if they start to add more loot in the game it'll become something to go for. But throwing away crafting it the hopes that the god roll guns will be so worth grinding will only piss people off again like it did before.
OK, I am all for crafting as well as farming-specific loot. One of the issues in the game when it comes to farming is going into a raid with a GM and players want a specific loadout. If I need Vesper’s grenade launcher with bait and switch and I have several runs, but no luck I shouldn’t be denied a party invite because I don’t have that specific roll. It reminds me of Destiny One and having the G horn. Some players couldn’t do Croda or volt of Glass because they didn’t have that specific item bungee needs to do is Balance the option to keep crafting but also farming and keep options of grenade launches or whatever weapon available so if you don’t have this specific weapon you have opitions.
in d1 and even more so in d2 having the meta gun does not matter. you can easily beat stuff without them. ill never understand why people say they cant get into stuff without them.
I personally like crafting even if I get why it does kinda kill the chase for some folks but it’s genuinely insane to me that into the light was a rough draft of a system mostly everyone liked and they just haven’t expanded on that. Like attuning was godly as you were getting tons of whatever you wanted it’s just that the brave weapons had pretty bloated pools but attunement as well as focusing engrams was perfect it felt like it pleased everybody and just went nowhere.
I have to add to my earlier comment... You're so particular about the DETAILS of each thing in this game. Crazy how your OCD has made so many other players BETTER with what we had to work with. I hear inside your words... the IMPACT of the changes and how they've taken something fun from you. This is new content to me. A human side. 👈💪😎
@itztizzle I missed the "face video". Because I didn't catch it when it dropped... I refuse me looking it up. My OCD. Way back when I first commented... I asked you if you were like me? Seeing a billboard and counting each space and letter by twos. 👈👀
@itztizzle EVERYTHING resonates. What I need you to do now... Accept the challenge of the DEVS. With considerations to the fact they want to make it SO challenging to complete ANYTHING flawlessly... Even baby Vanguard feels worse than the NIGHTFALL now. 👈🤔
Every single vendor should offer engram focusing and multiple perk drops after resets, that would be the reward for engaging in their activities and greatly increase your chances of landing the roll of a weapon you're chasing. Despite #weightgate, I feel like Vesper was a test, because weekly rotation dungeons should offer double-loot in normal dungeons (no one is farming normal dungeons for armor, except when Spire released for the cowboy hat). Like expert raids, expert mode dungeons should offer weapons with double perks. Without these, crafting will always be the only fair solution.
Maybe the greatest mistake is that they took both craftable AND focusing at the same time. Didn't even try to ease into it, just ripped out both at the same time to be replaced with Tonics (which focus half of the time)
I think that the major change that ruined crafting for me was allowing us to spend mats to level u weapons. Now I have no materials and I never use the weapon bc I just craft and vault it. Part of what drew me into d1 was the long grind, using weapons to unlock perks and getting materials to apply this perks. This is what crafting could be. Instead of giving bum ass perks on a gun at lvl1 why not no perks and 5 levels where you can get the perks from a pool and choose masterwork and mags/ barrels. I want to have incentive to shoot things with guns. I also think curated rolls should be a thing, like shinies I want to get a guaranteed decent roll on an adept with two random perks along side. Why am I running 40+ GMs in a week to get a shit roll of a strand linear fusion that I haven’t used since when it could come at base with like auto loading and firing line.
If one of those people that have prestiged IB 4 times, every single engram outside of 2 has been focused on Tinasha's. I have yet to get the perk combo I want even once, it's maddening
I am pro crafting also but I would settle for a system where all the random rolls you acquire could be pulled from collections that way it gives the people that need it their carrot but also solves the vault space issue because as of right now it feels bad not caring about any of the weapons from this season since they aren’t super overpowered
Crafting has more upside than downside. I don't engage in the new content as much anymore because it's possible for me to farm 24/7 and still don't get the roll that I want. I would have play more if I'm chasing red borders.
Crafting is simply the best thing destiny 2 added as a non-gameplay based mechanic. They introduced it in such an odd state with all the different crafting materials and needing to use red borders to get more materials and every legendary could be a red border even if it wasn't craftable etc. and when they refined it to only use base game resources and added glimmer paid level ups etc. It was indeed way better for casual players. And I'll say this: It solved so many problems for the community that it actually boggles my mind as to how Bungie decided AGAINST it for Revenant. Crafting's ONE downside is that it takes priority over the loot chase, which is an understandable frustration. Bungie don't wanna put however many days, weeks, months into content only for it to be relevant for a few weeks while people get their red borders... but the problem with that mindset is *they already limit the viability of repeated content farming themselves*. They rotate content in and out of the game. They add an arbitrary timer to content and therefore, loot. The FOMO was bad, and it was so much worse before the idea of craftable weapons. Even craftable weapons from previous seasons are STILL obtainable and using them, you can get the patterns. That's what seasonal content needs. It's a limited time event, meant to exist in the game for any time between 15~ months to as little as 3 months. This is what craftable weapons are PERFECT for; in a years time, you won't care about whose engaging in the tomb of elders, cause they can't, and players would rather have full and complete access to all the gear that gamemode offered, but they can't, because it's gone. Seriously I do NOT understand why the ONE downside of "discourages playing content long past its release date" somehow takes precedent to ANYONE except the top 0.1% of players who LIVE for the game and would rather always be chasing something than ever think they have everything they want, when the problems it solve, including: Weaker emphasis on FOMO, saves vault space, removes frustration from RNG, allows for lower level players to get access to god roles that their playtime would never allow for unless they were lucky, it simply saves time and so many other benefits. Hell, one benefit I can think of right now is it allows people to more comfortably shift into other content. PVP and PVE have different viable weapon roles, I am a sole PVE player, I don't play crucible and if I did, I kept ZERO PVP viable weapons from my years on the game. I'd have to grind hand cannons, pulse rifles, snipers, fusions etc. to even get one I'd be happy to into pvp with, but since I have patterns, I can just make a viable one right now. No vault space needed, just a quick Google search on what weapons and perks are good in PVP and I can make it. I think bungie shot themselves in the foot with the apparent apprehension towards Crafting in revenant. Especially given the tonic system's major downsides of NOT WORKING. To incentivise more loot chase, Bungie opted to make Revenant weapons focusable through a system that didn't even work... when they could've just made them craftable, a system that only even broke once (and in a fun way, not a month long agonisingly dreadful way) and now people will a year or so from now, be missing out on these weapons because they either couldn't focus them or craft them or find the time to farm for them or new weapons came out and took priority from the vault space these weapons did take up and now they're not used nearly as much as they should've been. If I had to shift some blame, I think the reception to into the light being so positive had a hand in this. Bungie misinterpreted people playing that gamemode over and over as a sign that people want grind over crafting, which is completely untrue. The fact is, into the light was free, had 12 great weapons, was easy, it had limited time shiny collectibles, it's still in the game (meaning FOMO besides for the shiny version didn't matter nearly as much) and it had a simple, easy, free focusing mechanic that lasted indefinitely until you decided what other thing you wanted to farm for instead. All these things do not apply to Revenant, it'll be gone soon, there's way more divisive weapons, the focusing doesn't work, it's paid seasonal content and there's only base weapon drops, no adepts or shiny versions. They should've just made it craftable...
Imo bungie have just got it completely the wrong way around. Any activity that permiability stays in the game (raids/dungeons/gms) don't need crafting. Seasonal activities should be craftable so that you can get the god rolls before the activity leaves the game. Your 100% right about drop rates and how tonics don't work.
Thanks TIZZLE! I'm THE Crafter and actually feel in many instances my crafted weapons are far better than most available exotics for my purposes. OCD! 👈🤣 Ditto! I have only two and a half years playing so I try to keep the best roll from each weapon available since then. I've never farmed a damn thing except XP or whatever it took to get a particular exotic weapon. Maybe I'm different... Because I'm happy to play simple Vanguard 100 times a day. I just never focused on a particular armor because, as a HUNTER, I've got Assassin's Cowl, and for me, being invisible (at will) can't be topped by any other exotic. I'd like to expound more upon everything you addressed... It's just so much and in such amazing detail... As always, you're the best in the game figuring this shit out and explaining it in a way I enjoy watching and listening to. You also are very specifically DESTINY and that's why I really dig you. A guy I'd look forward to playing with when I get home from work. Keep your chin and the amazing content UP! 👈💪😎
I think noncraftable weapons are a thing of the past. True grinding for RNG rolls back in the day wasn't as bad because there were only 4 to 6 perks per column at most with only 4 to 5 different weapons dropping for each activity. Now there is at minimum 7 perks per column to bloat the grind time making a 2 or 3 out of 5 drop the most common result. And farming doesn't fix the issue of replay value. It just forces you to hyper fixate on as many rolls of each weapon in case the sandbox changes. Which stresses vault storage, another sore point that Bungie hems and haws about fixing.
I think you hit the nail head on with agency (focusing or attunement) and multiple perks per column, but I'd also like to add in a 3rd in the form of amount of loot. IMO loot should ideally have 2 of the 3 to make the chase rewarding while still keeping it a chase. Into the Light had like 1.5/3, focusing wasn't a 100% guarantee so it gets half a point but 2 chests on master and a ton of tokens give you the amount. With enough time playlists actually hit all 3. Enough resets give you more perks, you can directly focus the current (and past) seasons weapon AND you get a lot of engrams doing multiple resets. Something like dungeons or (weekly) competitive are the complete opposite (outside of Vesper chest). Encounters have tables but no guarantee on a certain drop, there's no way to get multiple perks AND encounters can take a while to even get through. It's not if, but when you repeat your favorite dungeon enough, it will leave a taste of shit in your mouth if you don't get anything close to what you're looking for. Or in competitive it's 3 games with (basically) 0 loot to roll once, with a max of 3 per week (until season changes). Crafting completely subverts all 3 and I love it for it. Doesn't matter if there's no proper focusing, doesn't matter if I don't get multiple perks, doesn't matter if I don't get truckloads of loot. Just a constant chug until you hit 5/5 and then it's the roll you want (obviously having focusing or amount speed up crafting progress). Also a personal anecdote, none of the people I play with want to play the current seasonal content because they made the mistake of saying that "they'll be craftable eventually".
Do people not remember that raid weapons weren't random for the first four years of the the franchise? The latter two raids in d1 had one randomized perk column with three options for each gun. And since the red borders showed up in WQ... Forsaken, Shadowkeep, and Beyond Light was the only period (of three years) where raids had true random rolls.
I agree. I go for red borders. Chasing loot is fun but then they need to increase drops. RNG just to get a weapon to drop then more RNG to get the roll you want. Too much for too little.
I think Bungie should lean into crafting more than they do. There should be crafting exclusive perks available. With that said there should also be non-craftable weapons available also. The ritual weapons shouldn’t be craftable and there should be 3 different perk combos to encourage players to run all 3. Back to crafting, I would like to see a quest line added at the relic conduit vendor. The reward of the quest would be a new legendary cipher which would give you the option to add a 3rd weapon perk column to any crafted legendary weapon. Use this quest as an opportunity to freshen up some of the forgotten parts of the game. The legendary cipher would be available to get once per season. After the quest the vendor will reward rank progress for completed tasks and the reset reward can be a harmonizer. This is just something that I would like to see happen. I don’t think that would ruin the experience for veteran players but it could open a door to close the gap a little for the new players that are struggling.
The revamped season of undying weapons gave me a reason to re-engage with Breach Executable / Vex BG's last season because those were randomly rolled weapons. It took me quite a while to land my heal clip / incandescent Martyr's. I had rolls I wanted on Breachlight, Patron, Line, and Perfect Paradox, too. I think the best solution is a mix of crafting and random rolls. Crafting respects my time. (As it does everyone else's time.) I completely understand the argument that once you have your red borders, you don't need to play said raid any more; imagine if those people wanted to sherpa others to their red borders instead of saying they don't want to play that activity any more. They certainly don't need to, but that would make for a much healthier attitude throughout the D2 community, in my opinion. P.S. - I still haven't landed the envious / BnS Bitter/Sweet either. Lol. The Bitter/Sweet tonic has had about the same chance to drop it as attunement has in my own anecdotal experience. Roughly 60% of the time, it drops it. I do get a lot of Liturgies and Exuviaes, too. P.P.S. - They need to add multiple perks to Iron Banner weapons after rank resets like they do strikes, crucible, and gambit. Non-craftable seasonal weapons would also be a great recipient of this change like you mentioned as well.
I almost get SE title and thanks crafting for it, because I tried every weapon from it with different perks and now I want almost every adept weapon with 2-3 concrete perks in each column.
I like crafting, it’s easy & useful but that also means everyone basically has the exact same rolls. This season is different and they brought back the chase for the perfect roll and I like that even more. Its so much fun getting the roll you and your friends have been farming for before them and rubbing it in their face 😂👌🏽
I 100% agree !!! I play FAR more hours than 90% of the community and it's bad for me and my horrid RNG luck - a reason i don't by ANY lottery tickets. and this is a PAID game! Why so much bloody grind? - My RNG is nuts Poor! I have reset Iron banner FIVE TIMES chasing my FIRST bloody air trigger/chill clip. that's over 150 Engrams plus millions in glimmer to RNG for a 1 in 49 chance item. It SUX! and that's just my first of that roll, NOT a god roll! - PLUS the RNG is made worse with a broken Potions system with the potions not dropping their correct weapons!! AND the one Flake for the newest weapons doesn't drop AT ALL, no matter what seasonal content i run, breaking down seasonal weapons etc. it freakin' BRUTAL Brave weapons focus was actually ok. Tonics are complete Dog Shit. and there is ZERO protection baked in to the RNG where say after 50 engrams, odds double, 75, triple etc. Or like you say Tizzle, resetting Iron banner 5x and STILL 1 perk in each column? AND what the hell with 25k glimmer an attempt for Iron Banner. should be 5k max. we do not have enough glimmer cap to save up for these events, and with the odds so shitty, 25k is theft. I worked crazy hard accumulating planetary resources as reserve and every bit is consumed on a single endeavor. Much more of this and it will be on to another game. Makes me sad. If they had stayed at the old red border structure would have been fine. took effort to craft and then level.
Bro just in your first 30 secs of this video made nod hard in agreement. Insta-sub for the well thought out vid and opinions. Looking forward to more of your D2 vids. Pro-crafting supporter myself but can completely understand the other side. Maybe a good catch up mech is to make the drops craftable in the final act or once the next episode begins. EX: make Revenant weapons craftable when Ep 3 starts
I love crafting. I’m a completionist so I grind the hell out of a raid to get red borders and complete all patterns. I even started with Garden again although I don’t like the raid so much. This season without focusing or crafting is terrible. Especially when does damned tonics don’t even work. I like your suggestion of multi column perks ( that’s why I run still those simple strikes to gain reputation. In conclusion: removing the focusing was a mistake
Its crazy to think back and the logic for crafting being to "curb RNG" now that we know weight gate has existed since forsaken. Think about how many complaints about RNG that drove them to make crafting wouldn't have existed. That being said, crafting was an excellent decision and its baffelling that they removed it like they did
i spend a good bit of time playing d2 and while I prefer crafting, I can understand the appeal of having more grind/chase. The thing is, if there's not gunna be crafting, there need to be better systems in place that reduce the extent of RNG. Historically, this has come in the form of engram focusing and attunement. Unfortunately, neither of those things exist for the seasonal weapons in revenant, and--let's face it--the tonic system is a woefully inferior alternative. If they ditched the tonic system and brought back engram focusing and/or attunement, then I, as an anti-crafter, could live with that. But I think crafting is ultimately better due to the more or less deterministic path it gives to desired rolls and the freedom and flexibility it provides to buildcrafters.
They took a step forward with into the light and took 2 steps back with the tonics focusing. Into the light was close to perfect. Just make enough loot drop and give us double perks that aren't insanely rare. That's how you keep both sides as happy as possible.
Love your view Tiz I agree with your thoughts too! Was going to ask if you’re up for doing a settings video of your keybinds etc would love to see how to be as optimal as possible
Great points about crafting Tizzle. I agree 💯 percent. I've only been playing D2 since Dec 2023 and got into raids and dungeons in June of 2024. I am not a fan of raids but love the loot, and the only reason why I replay raids is because of the ability to craft my favorite raid weapons. I'm currently one roll away from getting the deliverance pattern (deliverance is the reason I started raiding). Once I get that, I'll be free from VOD and will finally be able to continue farming Crota for over souls and my Swordbreaker red boarders and all of the other Croata weapons. Bungie IMO is doing all of this intentionally... Scaling back D2 content and making the loot grind harder since the content is shorter. They figure that the loot grind will keep us busy. FYI. I got a 4 out of 5 God roll of Bitter/Sweet turing in potions to Eido, give it a try. Roll dropped with hard launch + spike nades + envious arsenal + bait/switch. Only thing missing was handling MW. Visit Eido and turn in your potions. Some of us are not using the potions anyway. 🍻
Crafting is also good because of resources. If the ONLY thing you are farming an activity for is the weapon, then you just get bored and angry pulling a slot machine, sometimes for AGES. However, if you get a good amount of needed resources like Enhancement Cores or Prisms, hell even shards, you would actually want to farm weapons because it isn't the SOLE thing you are going for. Adding more use cases for these resources as well, maybe masterworks for like cosmetics or something. You need more of them and so have more need/want to go and farm that weapon, you need resources anyways so 2 in 1.
Bungie should keep crafting but lock it until the end of the season with some benefit for using the non-crafted version to insensitive players to keep playing but to help if people are unlucky and don't get the god roll they want they're still guaranteed to get the roll they want at the end of the season. Definitely feel like this is a better solution then not having crafting at all.
It sucks because Revenant would’ve had some of the best seasonal weapons in the game if they were craftable and more people had easier access to those desired rolls. Vantage Point and Noxious Vetiver both with attrition orbs/jolting feedback. Scavenger’s Fate with a 5/5 PvP roll of slideshot or lone wolf/closing time would’ve made everyone quit using Matador (unless they nerf lone wolf and closing time). The season pass has Liturgy with disorienting/slideways/chill clip but also has volatile launch and blast radius MW (both completely useless, so it’s a 3/5 roll. Quick launch and handling MW is what you really want). Almost all of these weapons are legit S tier and if we had more access to them then we would all have more fun with the build crafting potential.
Bad balance isn't a good reason to remove crafting. Balance better. Scav Fate already invalidates all other energy shotties simply because of bad balance.
In addition to what you said about how tonics work, i think a lot of times its also important how a system feels. And what is one of the biggest memes, if not the biggest in gaming: Potions. And i dont want to be disrespectful but as seasoned devs they had to know that right? Show me any Potion, Elixir, Concoction, Draught, Perfume, whatever system and my eyes instantly glaze over. Timer based, grindy buff systems like that always either fall into the " Hmm thats good, might need that gonna hoard it" category. Fast forward to you ending the game/season with 3000 of them in your bag. Oooor so convoluted or useless its not even worth engaging with. And we got parts of both, so as a gamer i feel like ive been conditioned to not like it for years before ever even starting this season, which is a shame. (sorry for the rant)
Realest mf to ever speak on this topic. I dont mind if its 15 red borders per gun or if it's multiple-perks on reset, but just guarantee a light at the end of that tunnel for people who grind for it.
As far as this season goes it is just the new elders tonics that didn't focus properly. If you were popping bitter sweet focus tonics with the amount you play it's near impossible to not eventually get envious/BnS. The tonics are actually pretty crazy there's a reddit post of someone using them with just kills and no activity completions and the drops are insanely high. You just gotta remember to pop them. Crafting, no crafting.. this isn't what saves Destiny.
I’m calling BS on you, Shaggy. Ten Iron Banner rank resets would take (roughly) 300 matches. That’s a LOT, but it’s certainly plausible that someone could play that much in 10 days’ time. However, if one DID play out those 300 matches, s/he would earn at least 200 Iron Banner engrams. The probability of rolling Air Trigger + Chill Clip from any one focused roll is 2.04%. The CUMULATIVE probability of receiving that roll at least once, from 200 tries, is **98.4%**. Is it possible that you’re telling the truth? Yes. Is it overwhelmingly likely that you’re lying, though? Emphatically, YES.
People need crafting now because the old days of destiny 1 is long gone, the community and audience is completely different. they dont have the time they did then and the games direction is not what it was back in 2014. i HATE crafting but I know the need of the people and crafting just needs refinement to be rewarding but not turn on the game simplistic to achieve. bungie sadly has not found that happy medium.
Like you I primarily play to get better at the same, rather than specific weapon drops. But red borders are awesome, I would rather have that then total rng. I like the idea of attunement as you rank up
I noticed the request to get rid of crafting was coming from Streamers content creators and people who no life the game. No one else complained. Problem is, you can not put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once its there it needs to stay there. You DONT remove things from this game! Sunsetting should've taught us that. Plus, now that Bungie has been caught red handed "weighting" perks people are really gonna demand crafting back. They also now have huge perk pools on weapons. Plus, grinding is longer now than ever. Strikes are longer, Exotic Quests are longer and Dungeons as well. No one should be playing this game day in day out, you will grow to hate this game.... fast.
I'm with you 100%. I play content if it's fun and/or incredibly rewarding. I played contest of elders a lot more than onslaught salvation cause it's fun for me. I played echoes cause the guns could be crafted. I played og onslaught cause it was fun + all guns where good.
After so many years, I have piles of loot that I've never equipped. I like crafting because it saves vault space and gives you control of the gear. I'm a solo player so raids are not in my wheelhouse.
Funny how I'm both solo and raid-team ready, and I do the exact same thing like you.
Crafting has saved me vaultspace so many times!
It is crazy to me that anyone wants crafting gone. I want my reason to engage with the game to be to have FUN, not just to jump through hoops for a chance to pull the lever on the slot machine. I agree with you about crafting actually increasing my engagement with certain raids. It gives a tangible reward to look forward to and respects my time.
@@LordTonzilla Hot take: a looter shooter without any way of guaranteeing the exact loot you want is only a single step away from being a gacha game.
@@jamescruz8678 Well... you still have to pay for the expansion to get the chance to acquire loot
Absolutely nothing crazy. Crafting made non-redborder craftable weapons auto-dismantle. This removes excitement from all those drops. For that reason, I don't like crafting. But I like it because crafting gives clear progression path.
Actually, Tizzle highlighted pros and cons very precisely.
@@alexander.sabinin hear me out right... just make it so you can enhance random drops of craftable weapons. They did it with raid adepts and those are non craftable random drops that are a significantly better system than just being able to enhance your trait perks on worlddrop weapons even if most adepts aren't worth going after.
I don’t think people want crafting gone because there’s for sure a middle ground
Relying only on RNG is insane
Bring back crafting
Everyone i play with regularly far prefers cafting. We play a lot. Even after all the red borders, we still played. But then we were able to play with awesome new weapons
Yeah see there are two different sides for Destiny, there is the loot Chase and build crafting/actually playing with your loot.
And I agree with you, since I'm more of a build crafter, it's fun to mess around with different perks and the game is way more enjoyable to me being able to use different rolls of weapons.
I don't like not getting a perk combo I want to try out because of RNG.
Yeah crafting is awesome, I’ve completed warlords ruin 164 times and still haven’t gotten the coveted lead from gold/volt shot indebted kindness, crafting would clear this frustration up.
I think some kind of knockout system would maybe balance the scales. I’ve been after an Eddy Current/Jolting Feedback AR in VH the second reset hit and API unmasked the vespers loot pool. I have had 200+ drops of that AR now easily and still don’t have that roll. I think we need to find a balance between crafting a god roll an hour after the content drops and having to suffer hundreds of runs to get what you want. Neither are good for playerbase retention.
I’m a prime example too of Tizzle’s point on raid loot. Literally haven’t run Salvations a single time since I unlocked my last pattern and I didn’t hate the raid at all.
Oof, running a dungeon that many times without getting a desired role is just torture.
But rng is literally broken. That doesn't mean rng is a bad thing. It means bungie fucked up. You ran it 164 because of perk weighting. It's not functioning as intended. If it was working as intended, you might realise rng can actually be cool. A way to be excited about the things that drop from a chest. Of course it's hard to get excited though when the system is broken
@@oxsila What about guns without the perk weighting bug affecting them all that much? Do we even know if Indebted Kindness was affected? Also, risking running anything 164 times is NOT something to be excited about at all. There needs to be a way of eventually guaranteeing the roll you want. I'm not sure why Bungie doesn't just copy/paste Necrochasm's method of obtaining a weapon, which balances both RNG (early Oversoul jackpot) with a sense of progression (requires 20 Oversoul to obtain).
i settled for my beacon rounds volt shot roll. Because that is the only volt shot i have ever gotten to drop. I don’t mind dungeons not having crafting but i wish we could attune or something to weight the drops.
The legs drop example was legit...even better is when you need one leg item for a power level and it drops 5 class items back to back.
I wish o could get 5 pinnacle class items lol..I think I've dropped that many total since the most recent power cap change
His example is literally what's happening to me right now lol. 2010 on everything but legs. This is week 4. Granted, I don't do ALL the pinnacle activities in the game but since I can't guarantee they'll drop for me anyway, I just do 2 or 3 and hope for the best.
The definitive D2 experience
Coming from a mainly pvp player, the removal of crafting was a big blow to my enjoyment for the game (granted I still play the game every day).
I relate to this comment in a spiritual level
Red borders was revolutionary and it would attract people that wouldn’t want to grind in a game. Grinding only works if you don’t end up with time that felt wasted. Grind dungeon for a specific drop, or stay OT at work for the same time.
I haven't even worried about getting a good roll for Velocity Baton because it honestly feels like it would be a waste, I have one and it'll probably fill the role I need it to if I throw it on. I also got my indebted kindness from banshee and don't plan on farming the first encounter for the "god roll" the only reason I'll keep going into it is because I want buried bloodline
@@ryangranquist9580i like that dungeon, I don't care about the loot, I play it for the fun of it.
I am pro red border and crafting, not because I don’t want to grind the game, but because I don’t want to be forced to play a specific activity that I don’t find appealing over and over again for the sake of a drop. I prefer to grind activities or go for challenges that I find more enjoyable. Having guarantee behind the activities I am required to do frees me up for things I want to do instead
@ I agree man. I stopped playing for a while, but returned to join raid LFGs. The game has been more enjoyable this way, and I haven’t felt like I’m missing out until this season
You are not an anomaly. Many of us want crafting. Also raid loot stopped being the pinnacle of weapons since WQ. Crafting has little to do with it. Putting raid perks on random weapons outside raids was a large mistake that took more away from them then crafting did.
I agree
I dont even think it's that, many raid weapons just don't have desirable perk rolls, salvations edge for me was literally worthless imo.
He is an anomaly in that he is content creator that is pro crafting. That's a rarity. CC's tend to be pro rng for the most part.
@@50_Sea_50_Weed The bow and the pulse rifle are worth getting. It depends what you play though. Is all you play PvP? Coz that will decide for you
@oxsila No, I play pve exclusively.
I only have the pulse crafted, and even then, it's just another incandescent primary:
We have the world drop sidearm. The Kingfall hand cannon. Lunas howl. Calus mini tool. And now this... There's just no real reason to want this unless you really like pulses. We already have enough incan primaries...
People keep saying the bow is good, but I have legit not seen a single person use it since the raid launched. People reviewed it, and then nobody used it, "legendary trinity ghoul" my ass...
I shouldn't have to explain why the glaive and sword aren't good.
I see the SMG used a lot by some people, but that one is completely on me it just doesn't seem like something I would use im not a fan of SMGs anymore after the HC and Pulse buffs in PvE.
Idk if it's just me, but I really dont understand the hype for the salvations edge weapons they're all sidegrades at best or garbage at worst.
Nobody meantions that even without crafting, there is still a point where you are done with an activity. Non-crafting just makes us grind longer or give up and take a less desirable roll. I'm still not running a 3 year old raid etc
I absolutely love crafting. Most of the people I've heard say they aren't keen on it have spent the time, gotten it all, & now don't engage with the content. I definitely think there's room for work on the crafting system to benefit everyone more but I can't say I've ever felt like I'm missing out by just being able to reshape a different perk or something. It's made me step out of my comfort zone more & actually use different perks since I can opt to swap them out. Weightgate doesn't give me hope in the idea of "you'll get it eventually" when there's no form of bad luck mitigation or any way for me to slowly chip away it it. I get the roll or I don't, that's it
Hey Tizz,
I really appreciate the discussion going on here. I made a post on your community post regarding changes players would like to see in D2 regarding weapon crafting and the points you posit in this video really highlights the value of crafting to someone - like me - who craves a bit of a loot grind. I highlight the possibility for a hybrid system on my aforementioned post whereby you could use the crafting system to enable players to change one or more of the columns in an otherwise RNG weapon. However, I love the idea of adding a system (as you mention) like ritual activities giving multiple perk selections and weapon attunement.
The Vesper’s Host grind really highlights why I hate a pure RNG based system. I just want my attrition orbs demon baton to open up build crafting. I love love love Vesper’s host as a dungeon but grinding the first or 2nd encounter for a possibility at my coveted roll just feels bad man. It’s burning me out and making me not want to play my favorite dungeon. Also, this style of play isn’t encouraging me to engage with or master the dungeon. Why not make it so some of the triumphs (that increase ice breaker drop chance) increase the chance at getting triple or double perks? That encourages mastery of the dungeon at the very least!
I'm with you on this one, I love crafting especially for limited time stuff like sessions. As a PvP main, my enjoyment is getting better at PvP, not a never ending grind for something that will most likely just get vaulted right after I get it.
I absolutely love crafting, that is probably not a novel statement. Having said that your solution of multiple perk columns and attunement is a reasonable alternative IMHO. The attunement on exotic class items made a massive difference.
I've been thinking this for a while but having a world where crafting exists AND a deterministic path to multiple perks on a weapon would be FANTASTIC. I would feel rewarded with my ability to craft a seasonal weapon but would still play an activity if it meant the same weapon could drop with double or triple the perks.
Ex. I've been using Lost Signal a lot this season but have to frequently go back to Mars to recraft the weapon depending on if I use it in the new dungeon or CoE. If I could grind last season's activities to get a Lost Signal with the 4 perks I want, I'd STILL be playing those activities.
I have 2 lost signal. Auto-loading and then OFA / Vorpal.
If I could farm for a roll that had both in one, with reasonable rng protection, I’d be farming that all the time
i never fully understood the anti-crafting crowd. if you don't like crafting and wanna grind for your rolls, then just do it lol. if u don't like crafting don't craft.
This feels like a pretty bad faith argument, nobody is against crafting because they “don’t like crafting and wanna grind”, they’re anti-crafting because it has diluted the loot chase down to a checklist that can be completed just by playing for like 15 minutes every week. Craftable weapons were also objectively superior to random rolls until rather recently. As long as crafting is the intended method of getting a god roll and not a means of bad luck protection, anti-crafters are absolutely valid in their criticisms.
@@turntwiggy Omg.. I hate the loot chase argument. In order to unlock alll the patterns in the salvation's edge raid, it took 9 clears, 1 raid per week. Before you roll your eyes and say just 1 raid? Yes, 1 raid because that's what most people have time for. Majority of players can't even engage with raids because of how time consuming they are or not able to put together a team. If there was no crafting and it was a slot machine, I wouldn't even have bothered playing the raid more than 1 or 2 times. Mind you, it was 9 clears because I used 3-4 deepsight harmonizers. If that wasn't there, another 3-4 clears...12 clears of a raid which is around 12 weeks for most players to unlock all patterns is a fair grind imo. Yeah, hardcore players will have it unlocked in 2-3 weeks but that's the reward for playing more. Making it a slot machine is just demoralizing.
If you don’t like [system] don’t participate in [system] is almost never a good argument. Obviously no one’s gonna handicap themselves when the system is in the game(unless you’re part of a very niche crowd doing some challenge or something). They can use the mechanic and still not like the mechanic.
@@turntwiggytalk about a bad faith argument, the chase is RIGHT THERE. You’re looking at 199 McNuggets and because someone’s got a bacon double cheeseburger on the next table you just can’t eat a nugget? The nugget is worthless to you? You didn’t even want a cheeseburger. Why are you jealous of the cheeseburger? Eat your nuggets.
@@turntwiggy you missed the part where if you're going into something like a raid just to chase godrolls, the exotic, or for the title not because the raid drops materials you need or you enjoy it you are quite literally filling a checklist. The checklist argument has ALWAYS been in bad faith because of that and yall act like there is any sort of incentive to chase random rolls of weapons over crafting just because you Stockholm syndromed yourselves into believing you enjoyed having to run the same raid once a week on all 3 characters just to barely get a 3/5 drop if even that, just to throw the roll in the vault to gather dust because 1. Its not exactly what you're looking for and 2. You burned out on the game being forced to play content you don't really enjoy to get loot to take into content you would enjoy. Its never been about crafting being a checklist or being excited about getting the random drop godroll, but its absolutely been about people parroting the same "argument" over and over without even giving it any thought. Y'all are no better than the people that chase dopamine opening CSGO cases or the people who WANT loot boxes in video games.
Wow, it is so nice to see a content creator echo my exact sentiments on crafting/loot. Like you, I get my fun from using unique builds and actually PLAYING the game. As you said, I don't need a carrot to want to play, I just enjoy it. That said, I do enjoy having a goal that I know is achievable. As a result, I've barely played the seasonal content this season due to how bad the reward structure is. It feels like no matter how much effort I put in there, I'm not gonna get what I want so I may as well spend my time on something in the game that seems doable. I've spent basically all my time grinding Wicked Sister and even though I haven't gotten the roll I want after 5 resets, it feels like a significantly less shitty grind because at least with the resets I have a way to deterministically increase my odds of getting the roll as time goes.
My favorite part of the season honestly has been getting the patterns for the Garden weapons. Had they not made those craftable, I would not have touched Garden all season, but now I've spent 10+ hours in that raid as a result of the red borders. I have barely even used them, but I'm a completionist and that still gave me a light at the end of the tunnel, therefore being enjoyable to me.
I just hate the attitude from crafting-hating creators of "oh no, there's no crafting, you'll actually have to play the game now". I promise I'll play the game either way. If there's crafting, most of my time will be spent testing new builds and weapons in activities I enjoy and would recommend to friends. With no crafting, I'm toiling away at an activity I don't like, ending my play sessions disappointed. I wish there was a toggle for "I don't need the carrot actually, give me crafting" lol
Amen. Look at axial lacuna - would I have ever used that fusion if I didn’t just happen to have the pattern and wanted to try out some fusion perk combos? Definitely not!
I loved the red border system. I've been playing since day 1 Destiny and it was a great release to finally be able to get the exact rolls i wanted after 10 years of almost never getting the desired rolls let alone a 5/5. I've been playing onslaught trying to get a arsenal/Chill Liturgy and at this point I'd kill just for a 2/5 roll! And if it wasn't for red borders in Garden I would have never touched that dammit raid again! Had to beg friends to rerun it a few times to get my auto and fusion!
The red border system was fantastic, however, they went too far right out of the gate in that they gave crafting enhanced perks and made rng weapons pointless. So now we have crafted weapons AND rng weapons with enhanced perks. Enhanced perks should've only ever been on rng weapons and then that would make it fine to just give EVERY single weapon in the game the ability to be crafted. The issue now is, crafters are used to having enhanced perks. So there's no way they can go back and make crafted weapons not have enhanced perks. It's cooked.
I don't mind farming for weapon rolls...IF the focusing mechanism (TONICS!) Actually Fkn Worked!!!
In my own experience, Crafting was and is a great motivation for me to get into activities that I otherwise wouldn’t do. I hate raiding with randoms (my friends stopped playing a while back), but getting the weapons patterns gets me to return to that raid with randoms on a far more regular basis than I otherwise would have. Without it I would probably try a raid once and then rarely run it again.
I’ve even had times where I ended up getting the godroll for the weapon before I’ve even gotten all the red boarders for said weapon, yet I kept playing to get the full weapon pattern. Without crafting, I’d have just left there and never come back.
I’ve also found myself grinding raids just to get red boarders for weapons that I don’t even really want, just for the sake of having them available and completed. Without crafting I’d certainly not do any of that whatsoever.
The same applies to seasonal weapons as well.
Edit: Turns out you mentioned these very points in your video lol.
Crafting is great for a lot of reasons. I especially like it because I can change perks if they nerf/buff something. I mostly just play for fun though, so weapon drops are just a bonus to add on, not replace my fun.
Crafting is better tbh.
Chasing god rolls wastes my time. Iron banner wastes my time as a PVE player when i just want two guns. Randy god roll and chill clip sidearm. The RNG loot pool seems like it's not fixed either, recognisable rolls are still dropping.
Yoo chablo.. Love your videos! What's the randy god roll for pve? Didn't know I should look out for one.
@nullpointer5603 randy's god roll is gutshot straight and Kinetic tremors its the best legendary scout in the game right now. Thanks mate 👍
@@Chablo91 Thanks :)
i didn't even get one kinetic tremors so far from like 45 engrams.fortunatley i have my sidearm after 9 days of grinding O__O
They added crafting to reduce the vault space too.
If loot drops we're consistently better, I wouldn't miss crafting. I don't have time to engage too seriously as I have a family and a full time job, so crafting is a big benefit to me. Anyway, here's my two cents.
Crafting needs to be available, but random drops should have the possibility of getting premium perks/combinations. Sure, you can use the encalve to get that 140 hand cannon with the roll of triple-tap and frenzy (Austringer PvE classic). But, if you want the adept version with explosive payload and chaos reshaped...well...you'll just have to wait for RNJesus to bless you.
I think the real enjoyment for most in PvE comes down to build crafting. In order to build craft, you need specific tools, and while those tools should require some challenge to acquire, those challenges need an element of consistency. If you need an Arc LMG with demolitionist to finish you latest mad scientist experiment, you should be allowed to get exactly that after a certain level of engagement (assuming the thing you want actually exists).
I agree with everything you said 100% Also if you’ve played for the entire lifespan of D2 you just don’t have the vault space to hold all these rolls.
I get the feeling crafting vs rng really comes down to personality. I see crafting as an option to get a god roll weapon so I can do harder content. Some people enjoy the thrill of getting the god roll randomly. I have never enjoyed gambling in Vegas, but I understand why people do. I'm sure there's a balance between the two somewhere.
Agreed on crafting a new weapon for specific purpose. Thanks for all the content
Thanks for all the good content you’ve been putting out lately. I know these videos take time, energy, commitment and a love for the game. You have become one of the most respected voices in Destiny for me. Regarding crafting, I like to have the weapons crafted because they feel like a weapon was designed just for me. It’s something that feels really unique and special. The same people that complained about crafting weapons are the same people complaining that they can’t get the weapons they want in 2 runs of the seasonal content. Now we wait for the knee jerk reaction by Bungie…
Bro, multi perks are truly the best! Vault space is the most valuable resource in the game to me. Even if I already have the godroll, I'd grind for multiperks.
In fact, I hated that bungie took away the multiperk world drops. They are instadelete now.
deterministic way to eventually achieve the intended goal is the absolute key......that is well said.....
crafting was awesome....I sure hope they bring it back
100% yay. Crafting is the best. I can actually play the game with the guns that I want in a game that I paid for. It's great. Why would anyone want crafting gone. Only people with no jobs or other responsibilities would want it gone. Can't believe we would want less fun in a world that's so busy. I just want to be able to work towards something with the limited time I have and actually get it in the end and eventually play with said item. The enjoyment comes from using the cool item, not just getting it and then grinding for the next item.
The reputation reset/extra perk columns for ALL vendors is THE answer!Everybody wins (even though I wouldn't put it past Bungie to fuck with perk weighting again) The tonic system (working correctly)could still work along side this for the seasonal stuff .The reason I like crafting is mainly for my neverending lack of vault space that Bungo don't seem to care too much about.With crafting I don't have to be afraid to delete any of it .Exotic class items also need to be pulled from collections that would free up 100 slots for me .Great video Tizzle let's thumbs it up for exposure to Bungo!
I have been saying for awhile now they need to bring back the way the season of the Dawn was. That season was awesome and so was the activity. Anyway, the way it was setup is when you got through the activity, you got to select what weapon you wanted depending on what totem (i think that is what they were) you were linked to. If you did the activity right, you got to select what weapons you wanted to focus and you got to get about 4 or 5 of them per activity. It was awesome. Bring that type of thing back. Make it kind of like the raids where you can interact with the chest and select what you want. I don't mind RNG at all, but going through the activity and being able to grab what you want feels rewarding. Keep red borders limited and let us do that. I get excited when i get the God roll i am looking for. Like the God Roll Gridskipper i got. They need to have a balance of valuing people's time and RNG to where you can still have RNG, but still go after what you want.
They should change crafting to the actual perks that are dropped. You may get all of the perks found within 7 or 8 drops along with the red borders. But maybe you still have yet to get incandescent. You will have to keep farming to unlock that weapon perk within crafting. This will elongate the time it takes to have weapon fully unlocked. This also helps with weight gate issues. As long as the perk drops on a random roll it's unlocked for that weapon in crafting.
That's my take on how to update and blend the issues we are having.
Bring back crafting. Maybe for artifice armor too. I was also locked out for 4 weeks trying to get a warlock bond to be at max light. Incredibly frustrating.
Great video
I think what you said at the end really nails it BOTH crafting and non crafting players just want some level of agency in their drops THATS IT everyone wins. And that’s coming form someone who’s pretty decently anti crafting even though I utilize it
For me, it's the same situation for you when you mentioned Salvation's Edge. A thing with me in D1 was I would go back to old missions and such not for loot, but to just mess around and have fun. Ever since Duality and Bungie making exotic drops random instead of a quest like Ghorn or Wish-ender, getting that exotic is when my time in those activities end. Even D1 raids were fun to go back to and mess around in, but D2 ones for reprised raids and Salvation's Edge include champs which take away the fun of the game for me.
Them taking away Leviathan also killed it for me as that was a fun raid to do on repeat and was a good way to introduce players to D2 raiding. Taking that away removed quite a lot for the game (both literally and figuratively) to where it hurt too much.
Hell, crafting these days doesn't feel worth it to me either at this point ever since Bungie made everything power disabled/minus power so the fun for me has been drained away since the power system that has been a thing for years is now gone and replaced with a terrible, artificial difficulty system.
I started during the Dawning in season of the seraph. The fact that I could grind to get the season weopons crafted made me chase those and the I started grinding for raid red boarders. I was very hesitant to do because I'm more solo and don't like dealing with the toxicity of wiping and the person who was helping us understand and clear ends up leaving. So, it was amazing to be able to catch up and be a little prepared for lightfall. It made me grind dungeons and other activities due to wanting all types of gear because of the artifact always changing. I can go into a season excited to use the weopons I've grinded for. The fact that dungeons, World weopons, crucible, iron banner, trials, crucible, comp, and of course gambit. These are my grinding weopons that I have to combat bungie horrible RNG. I've chased so many weopons and can't get the rolls I want or due to being able to reset some activities to increase perk drops on weopons strongly helps to make me grind more. Now I have to live in the season activity focusing weopons that don't drop what you focus for and how much can they expect you to play onslaught, or tomb of elders hoping for weopons to never get meanwhile trying to chase all the other weopons in the game. There isn't enough time in a day for an average player to ever get stuff in the game. Some people get to live in destiny while others have to live life and enjoy destiny but spend so much time grinding for now nothing due to the weopons not dropping rolls even after bungie supposedly fixed random drops. Out of 100 engrams I never got 1 single roll of air trigger chill clip. Of course I'd love to have crafting!!! I'm tired of getting screwed every way in the game and at least felt I could win some with crafting. Now I feel like this is the most grinding season I've ever played just to get partial god rolls.
THANK YOU! most people are missing that AGENCY is what the serious grinders want, not always determinism on the final loot. I got every single 4/4 from OG onslaught (barrel/mag/both perks) via rng and three were shinys because I put in the time and knew I had a decent chance at it. but this season, I don't have a single 5/5, I've stopped at just getting the two perks because tonics are awful and you just get less loot per run than OG.
throughout the game, people don't actually have a problem with RNG loot per se, but the lack of ability to meaningfully improve your chance at a roll. why can't we focus weapons in the dungeon? why does IB focusing cost so much glimmer? why are tonics not working??? why can't we get multiple perks on comp/trials/ib/seasonal/dungeon weapons for being higher rank?
bungie is going to take the wrong lesson from this season that players want crafting back so they play more. but actually, they just want to feel rewarded for their time, and maintain the chase. into the light was a massive success but they didn't replicate any of the increased agency or amount of loot
Personally I was pretty happy with the way the crafting system was. I love being able to tweak a weapon to get the right feel or experiment with different perk combinations. Chasing patterns has been my main way of engaging with the game the past few years, even now.
Crafting is a fun grind.
Build crafting is amazing.
Secrets in destiny 2 was the best.
Ggs man
Someone from Bungie should hire this man. I would love a deterministic method for obtaining a given roll, which still retains the hype of getting a 'random' god roll.
8:48 I want to and here, why not let banshee resets increase the perks on LEGEND/MASTER lost sectors, keep the weapons rotation, but if i have reset banshee a lot, let this sectors also get the múltiple godrolls in 1 gun, not just a small chance at it
100% this is by far the best video on weapons drops. I have 0 god rolls of the seasonal weapons and I just can't bring myself to grind more for them. Contest of Elders is fun but after grinding Onslaught all of act 1 and not getting the rolls I want, I just don't want to do Contest of Elders over and over
I think keeping weapons craftable is important, so you can always get the roll you want no matter how bad your RNG is. However, I think Enhanchement should only be allowed on naturally dropped weapons. It would make those drops special, and give people the loot chase they want if they want the extra boost that enhanced weapons give.
Tbh, the reason I played died long ago. I know a lot think it’s weird or boring, but I loved farming raids. Learning tech for encounters, skips and speeds. But that shit died out. Went to low man’s, but I can’t even skull drag people through trio wish/vog like I used to.
Crafting, I like. I always thought that it should take multiple runs to get one red border outside of the guaranteed weekly. Makes people get better and in turn, find that the game is a lot deeper than shoot and loot.
About your point for increasing your Light Level @ 6:24, I disagree with parts of this. Agency is part of it, sure, but for me, and basically everyone that I used to play with but have since quit, it's the WHY?
Why should I have to "level up" my character to redo activities that I had access to a season ago? Why "level up" my gear and weapons when the same guns I had 4 years ago do the same shit? Origin perks are lazy and boring, completely ignore-able "upgrades" from previous weapons. The weapons are just side-grades of each other, with no real character progression. Instead it's all about just creating a "toolbox" of stuff to putz around with, without any true standout weapons that incentivise you to keep playing. What the heck is the point of weapon rarities when all you use is legendary's within the first 2 hours of the game anyways? Everything is so damned safe in D2, there is hardly a reason to build-craft beyond the enjoyment of it, and it all amounts to ability spam of the same abilities you already have access to anyways. You still kill shit quickly with a bog-standard loadout, even in GMs (i've gilded my Conqueror title a few times with basic ass gear and perks). Raid SHOULD be the reason, but they all amount to communication puzzles rather than challenging combat encounters that require these builds. The attributes in the game are boring and too balanced for the sake of PVP.
When I started my D2 journey years ago, I had hoped it'd provide deep RPG systems, where you can feel your character get stronger. This game, isn't that. With the current foundations the game is built on, that will NEVER happen. Add stuff like perk rarities, where you can individually upgrade each perk on a weapon within a finite energy system akin to armor or something, so if you want an Exotic tier version of Kill Clip, you can. More player progression is sorely needed in a game that has been out for so long. Add unique effects to your character when you reach a certain attribute threshold, to make a character with 200 resilience or mobility or discipline actually MEAN something. The outlined ideas in that Armor Update article about having a potential bonus charge to your grenade when you have really high Discipline is... something I guess, but that is just lazy man. You just get to do more of the same? Why not provide extended durations, new effects or higher damage or something instead? Idk man, Bungie just seems scared to INNOVATE their game. Sorry for the tangent that won't get read anyways.
Dropping seasonal AND dungeon crafting in the same episode was definitely a choice...
Likely to up playtime during a slow year. Like you said, Revenant's loot structure is abysmal.
I like crafting. I don't want to be reduced to forever chasing loot just because many people seem to have a gambling addictiin and need the "thrill" of getting a 5/5 to drop, then put it in the vault and never use it.
I played the Coil to get red borders. I have not touched Tomb of Elders beyond the required run for the story mission. I'm not interested in running the hamster wheel while gambling on rng.
My issue with the anti crafting people is that they aren't fixing the issue by getting rid of crafting. Like, if your problem is that you stop engaging with activities because you got the patterns, that'll happen when you get the god roll anyways. It happens with every raid whether you get the patterns or not for some people. For some they start to even feel upset that it didn't drop what they wanted after forever because they dont actually enjoy the activity, and being forced to constantly do it for the god roll is ridiculous. Crafting isnt the problem, loot outside of guns and fun activities are. When armor becomes important again and if they start to add more loot in the game it'll become something to go for. But throwing away crafting it the hopes that the god roll guns will be so worth grinding will only piss people off again like it did before.
OK, I am all for crafting as well as farming-specific loot. One of the issues in the game when it comes to farming is going into a raid with a GM and players want a specific loadout. If I need Vesper’s grenade launcher with bait and switch and I have several runs, but no luck I shouldn’t be denied a party invite because I don’t have that specific roll. It reminds me of Destiny One and having the G horn. Some players couldn’t do Croda or volt of Glass because they didn’t have that specific item bungee needs to do is Balance the option to keep crafting but also farming and keep options of grenade launches or whatever weapon available so if you don’t have this specific weapon you have opitions.
in d1 and even more so in d2 having the meta gun does not matter. you can easily beat stuff without them. ill never understand why people say they cant get into stuff without them.
@ exactly but you do hear it and maybe crafting with farming is the key.
@@dlbarnes whenever i use lfg its extremely rare to ever run into that situation.
@ Its not a constant situation but it does happen
I personally like crafting even if I get why it does kinda kill the chase for some folks but it’s genuinely insane to me that into the light was a rough draft of a system mostly everyone liked and they just haven’t expanded on that. Like attuning was godly as you were getting tons of whatever you wanted it’s just that the brave weapons had pretty bloated pools but attunement as well as focusing engrams was perfect it felt like it pleased everybody and just went nowhere.
Keep preaching Tizzle. Hopefully they hear you!
Great insights bro thanks. Would love you to make a video on your thoughts on the current player count and how to get more new players into the game.
I have to add to my earlier comment... You're so particular about the DETAILS of each thing in this game. Crazy how your OCD has made so many other players BETTER with what we had to work with. I hear inside your words... the IMPACT of the changes and how they've taken something fun from you. This is new content to me. A human side. 👈💪😎
thank you! Glad it resonates with you!
@itztizzle I missed the "face video". Because I didn't catch it when it dropped... I refuse me looking it up. My OCD. Way back when I first commented... I asked you if you were like me? Seeing a billboard and counting each space and letter by twos. 👈👀
@itztizzle EVERYTHING resonates. What I need you to do now... Accept the challenge of the DEVS. With considerations to the fact they want to make it SO challenging to complete ANYTHING flawlessly... Even baby Vanguard feels worse than the NIGHTFALL now. 👈🤔
Every single vendor should offer engram focusing and multiple perk drops after resets, that would be the reward for engaging in their activities and greatly increase your chances of landing the roll of a weapon you're chasing. Despite #weightgate, I feel like Vesper was a test, because weekly rotation dungeons should offer double-loot in normal dungeons (no one is farming normal dungeons for armor, except when Spire released for the cowboy hat). Like expert raids, expert mode dungeons should offer weapons with double perks. Without these, crafting will always be the only fair solution.
Maybe the greatest mistake is that they took both craftable AND focusing at the same time. Didn't even try to ease into it, just ripped out both at the same time to be replaced with Tonics (which focus half of the time)
I think that the major change that ruined crafting for me was allowing us to spend mats to level u weapons. Now I have no materials and I never use the weapon bc I just craft and vault it. Part of what drew me into d1 was the long grind, using weapons to unlock perks and getting materials to apply this perks. This is what crafting could be. Instead of giving bum ass perks on a gun at lvl1 why not no perks and 5 levels where you can get the perks from a pool and choose masterwork and mags/ barrels. I want to have incentive to shoot things with guns. I also think curated rolls should be a thing, like shinies I want to get a guaranteed decent roll on an adept with two random perks along side. Why am I running 40+ GMs in a week to get a shit roll of a strand linear fusion that I haven’t used since when it could come at base with like auto loading and firing line.
If one of those people that have prestiged IB 4 times, every single engram outside of 2 has been focused on Tinasha's. I have yet to get the perk combo I want even once, it's maddening
I am pro crafting also but I would settle for a system where all the random rolls you acquire could be pulled from collections that way it gives the people that need it their carrot but also solves the vault space issue because as of right now it feels bad not caring about any of the weapons from this season since they aren’t super overpowered
Crafting has more upside than downside. I don't engage in the new content as much anymore because it's possible for me to farm 24/7 and still don't get the roll that I want. I would have play more if I'm chasing red borders.
I liked last episode where the weapons that dropped had a set of red boarder, and a second set of none craftable weapons.
Crafting is simply the best thing destiny 2 added as a non-gameplay based mechanic. They introduced it in such an odd state with all the different crafting materials and needing to use red borders to get more materials and every legendary could be a red border even if it wasn't craftable etc. and when they refined it to only use base game resources and added glimmer paid level ups etc. It was indeed way better for casual players.
And I'll say this: It solved so many problems for the community that it actually boggles my mind as to how Bungie decided AGAINST it for Revenant. Crafting's ONE downside is that it takes priority over the loot chase, which is an understandable frustration. Bungie don't wanna put however many days, weeks, months into content only for it to be relevant for a few weeks while people get their red borders... but the problem with that mindset is *they already limit the viability of repeated content farming themselves*. They rotate content in and out of the game. They add an arbitrary timer to content and therefore, loot. The FOMO was bad, and it was so much worse before the idea of craftable weapons. Even craftable weapons from previous seasons are STILL obtainable and using them, you can get the patterns. That's what seasonal content needs. It's a limited time event, meant to exist in the game for any time between 15~ months to as little as 3 months. This is what craftable weapons are PERFECT for; in a years time, you won't care about whose engaging in the tomb of elders, cause they can't, and players would rather have full and complete access to all the gear that gamemode offered, but they can't, because it's gone.
Seriously I do NOT understand why the ONE downside of "discourages playing content long past its release date" somehow takes precedent to ANYONE except the top 0.1% of players who LIVE for the game and would rather always be chasing something than ever think they have everything they want, when the problems it solve, including: Weaker emphasis on FOMO, saves vault space, removes frustration from RNG, allows for lower level players to get access to god roles that their playtime would never allow for unless they were lucky, it simply saves time and so many other benefits. Hell, one benefit I can think of right now is it allows people to more comfortably shift into other content. PVP and PVE have different viable weapon roles, I am a sole PVE player, I don't play crucible and if I did, I kept ZERO PVP viable weapons from my years on the game. I'd have to grind hand cannons, pulse rifles, snipers, fusions etc. to even get one I'd be happy to into pvp with, but since I have patterns, I can just make a viable one right now. No vault space needed, just a quick Google search on what weapons and perks are good in PVP and I can make it.
I think bungie shot themselves in the foot with the apparent apprehension towards Crafting in revenant. Especially given the tonic system's major downsides of NOT WORKING. To incentivise more loot chase, Bungie opted to make Revenant weapons focusable through a system that didn't even work... when they could've just made them craftable, a system that only even broke once (and in a fun way, not a month long agonisingly dreadful way) and now people will a year or so from now, be missing out on these weapons because they either couldn't focus them or craft them or find the time to farm for them or new weapons came out and took priority from the vault space these weapons did take up and now they're not used nearly as much as they should've been.
If I had to shift some blame, I think the reception to into the light being so positive had a hand in this. Bungie misinterpreted people playing that gamemode over and over as a sign that people want grind over crafting, which is completely untrue. The fact is, into the light was free, had 12 great weapons, was easy, it had limited time shiny collectibles, it's still in the game (meaning FOMO besides for the shiny version didn't matter nearly as much) and it had a simple, easy, free focusing mechanic that lasted indefinitely until you decided what other thing you wanted to farm for instead. All these things do not apply to Revenant, it'll be gone soon, there's way more divisive weapons, the focusing doesn't work, it's paid seasonal content and there's only base weapon drops, no adepts or shiny versions. They should've just made it craftable...
Imo bungie have just got it completely the wrong way around.
Any activity that permiability stays in the game (raids/dungeons/gms) don't need crafting.
Seasonal activities should be craftable so that you can get the god rolls before the activity leaves the game.
Your 100% right about drop rates and how tonics don't work.
I would take crafting over anything else, but your take makes sense and i would compromise at least trying attunement with weapon focusing
Jeez, patterning collection is crazy
Thanks TIZZLE! I'm THE Crafter and actually feel in many instances my crafted weapons are far better than most available exotics for my purposes. OCD! 👈🤣 Ditto! I have only two and a half years playing so I try to keep the best roll from each weapon available since then. I've never farmed a damn thing except XP or whatever it took to get a particular exotic weapon. Maybe I'm different... Because I'm happy to play simple Vanguard 100 times a day. I just never focused on a particular armor because, as a HUNTER, I've got Assassin's Cowl, and for me, being invisible (at will) can't be topped by any other exotic. I'd like to expound more upon everything you addressed... It's just so much and in such amazing detail... As always, you're the best in the game figuring this shit out and explaining it in a way I enjoy watching and listening to. You also are very specifically DESTINY and that's why I really dig you. A guy I'd look forward to playing with when I get home from work. Keep your chin and the amazing content UP! 👈💪😎
I think noncraftable weapons are a thing of the past. True grinding for RNG rolls back in the day wasn't as bad because there were only 4 to 6 perks per column at most with only 4 to 5 different weapons dropping for each activity. Now there is at minimum 7 perks per column to bloat the grind time making a 2 or 3 out of 5 drop the most common result. And farming doesn't fix the issue of replay value. It just forces you to hyper fixate on as many rolls of each weapon in case the sandbox changes. Which stresses vault storage, another sore point that Bungie hems and haws about fixing.
I think you hit the nail head on with agency (focusing or attunement) and multiple perks per column, but I'd also like to add in a 3rd in the form of amount of loot. IMO loot should ideally have 2 of the 3 to make the chase rewarding while still keeping it a chase. Into the Light had like 1.5/3, focusing wasn't a 100% guarantee so it gets half a point but 2 chests on master and a ton of tokens give you the amount.
With enough time playlists actually hit all 3. Enough resets give you more perks, you can directly focus the current (and past) seasons weapon AND you get a lot of engrams doing multiple resets.
Something like dungeons or (weekly) competitive are the complete opposite (outside of Vesper chest). Encounters have tables but no guarantee on a certain drop, there's no way to get multiple perks AND encounters can take a while to even get through. It's not if, but when you repeat your favorite dungeon enough, it will leave a taste of shit in your mouth if you don't get anything close to what you're looking for. Or in competitive it's 3 games with (basically) 0 loot to roll once, with a max of 3 per week (until season changes).
Crafting completely subverts all 3 and I love it for it. Doesn't matter if there's no proper focusing, doesn't matter if I don't get multiple perks, doesn't matter if I don't get truckloads of loot. Just a constant chug until you hit 5/5 and then it's the roll you want (obviously having focusing or amount speed up crafting progress).
Also a personal anecdote, none of the people I play with want to play the current seasonal content because they made the mistake of saying that "they'll be craftable eventually".
Yuppp to everything you said. Played since the beginning and it feels really really bad rn. And I’m patient. But man. It’s trying my patience hard.
Do people not remember that raid weapons weren't random for the first four years of the the franchise? The latter two raids in d1 had one randomized perk column with three options for each gun. And since the red borders showed up in WQ... Forsaken, Shadowkeep, and Beyond Light was the only period (of three years) where raids had true random rolls.
I agree. I go for red borders. Chasing loot is fun but then they need to increase drops. RNG just to get a weapon to drop then more RNG to get the roll you want. Too much for too little.
I think Bungie should lean into crafting more than they do. There should be crafting exclusive perks available. With that said there should also be non-craftable weapons available also. The ritual weapons shouldn’t be craftable and there should be 3 different perk combos to encourage players to run all 3.
Back to crafting, I would like to see a quest line added at the relic conduit vendor. The reward of the quest would be a new legendary cipher which would give you the option to add a 3rd weapon perk column to any crafted legendary weapon. Use this quest as an opportunity to freshen up some of the forgotten parts of the game. The legendary cipher would be available to get once per season. After the quest the vendor will reward rank progress for completed tasks and the reset reward can be a harmonizer. This is just something that I would like to see happen.
I don’t think that would ruin the experience for veteran players but it could open a door to close the gap a little for the new players that are struggling.
The revamped season of undying weapons gave me a reason to re-engage with Breach Executable / Vex BG's last season because those were randomly rolled weapons. It took me quite a while to land my heal clip / incandescent Martyr's. I had rolls I wanted on Breachlight, Patron, Line, and Perfect Paradox, too. I think the best solution is a mix of crafting and random rolls. Crafting respects my time. (As it does everyone else's time.)
I completely understand the argument that once you have your red borders, you don't need to play said raid any more; imagine if those people wanted to sherpa others to their red borders instead of saying they don't want to play that activity any more. They certainly don't need to, but that would make for a much healthier attitude throughout the D2 community, in my opinion.
P.S. - I still haven't landed the envious / BnS Bitter/Sweet either. Lol. The Bitter/Sweet tonic has had about the same chance to drop it as attunement has in my own anecdotal experience. Roughly 60% of the time, it drops it. I do get a lot of Liturgies and Exuviaes, too.
P.P.S. - They need to add multiple perks to Iron Banner weapons after rank resets like they do strikes, crucible, and gambit. Non-craftable seasonal weapons would also be a great recipient of this change like you mentioned as well.
I almost get SE title and thanks crafting for it, because I tried every weapon from it with different perks and now I want almost every adept weapon with 2-3 concrete perks in each column.
I like crafting, it’s easy & useful but that also means everyone basically has the exact same rolls. This season is different and they brought back the chase for the perfect roll and I like that even more. Its so much fun getting the roll you and your friends have been farming for before them and rubbing it in their face 😂👌🏽
I 100% agree !!! I play FAR more hours than 90% of the community and it's bad for me and my horrid RNG luck - a reason i don't by ANY lottery tickets. and this is a PAID game! Why so much bloody grind?
- My RNG is nuts Poor! I have reset Iron banner FIVE TIMES chasing my FIRST bloody air trigger/chill clip. that's over 150 Engrams plus millions in glimmer to RNG for a 1 in 49 chance item. It SUX! and that's just my first of that roll, NOT a god roll!
- PLUS the RNG is made worse with a broken Potions system with the potions not dropping their correct weapons!! AND the one Flake for the newest weapons doesn't drop AT ALL, no matter what seasonal content i run, breaking down seasonal weapons etc. it freakin' BRUTAL
Brave weapons focus was actually ok. Tonics are complete Dog Shit.
and there is ZERO protection baked in to the RNG where say after 50 engrams, odds double, 75, triple etc.
Or like you say Tizzle, resetting Iron banner 5x and STILL 1 perk in each column? AND what the hell with 25k glimmer an attempt for Iron Banner. should be 5k max. we do not have enough glimmer cap to save up for these events, and with the odds so shitty, 25k is theft. I worked crazy hard accumulating planetary resources as reserve and every bit is consumed on a single endeavor. Much more of this and it will be on to another game. Makes me sad.
If they had stayed at the old red border structure would have been fine. took effort to craft and then level.
Bro just in your first 30 secs of this video made nod hard in agreement. Insta-sub for the well thought out vid and opinions. Looking forward to more of your D2 vids. Pro-crafting supporter myself but can completely understand the other side. Maybe a good catch up mech is to make the drops craftable in the final act or once the next episode begins. EX: make Revenant weapons craftable when Ep 3 starts
I love crafting. I’m a completionist so I grind the hell out of a raid to get red borders and complete all patterns. I even started with Garden again although I don’t like the raid so much. This season without focusing or crafting is terrible. Especially when does damned tonics don’t even work. I like your suggestion of multi column perks ( that’s why I run still those simple strikes to gain reputation. In conclusion: removing the focusing was a mistake
Its crazy to think back and the logic for crafting being to "curb RNG" now that we know weight gate has existed since forsaken. Think about how many complaints about RNG that drove them to make crafting wouldn't have existed.
That being said, crafting was an excellent decision and its baffelling that they removed it like they did
If we could infuse perks between two of the same guns, it would bring interest to every weapon drop long past the 5th red border
i spend a good bit of time playing d2 and while I prefer crafting, I can understand the appeal of having more grind/chase. The thing is, if there's not gunna be crafting, there need to be better systems in place that reduce the extent of RNG. Historically, this has come in the form of engram focusing and attunement. Unfortunately, neither of those things exist for the seasonal weapons in revenant, and--let's face it--the tonic system is a woefully inferior alternative. If they ditched the tonic system and brought back engram focusing and/or attunement, then I, as an anti-crafter, could live with that. But I think crafting is ultimately better due to the more or less deterministic path it gives to desired rolls and the freedom and flexibility it provides to buildcrafters.
I don't mind that there was no crafting, not that I like the no crafting just impartial. I just wish the focusing options were better this episode
They took a step forward with into the light and took 2 steps back with the tonics focusing. Into the light was close to perfect. Just make enough loot drop and give us double perks that aren't insanely rare. That's how you keep both sides as happy as possible.
Love your view Tiz I agree with your thoughts too! Was going to ask if you’re up for doing a settings video of your keybinds etc would love to see how to be as optimal as possible
Wasn't really planning on it but I guess I could
Great points about crafting Tizzle. I agree 💯 percent. I've only been playing D2 since Dec 2023 and got into raids and dungeons in June of 2024.
I am not a fan of raids but love the loot, and the only reason why I replay raids is because of the ability to craft my favorite raid weapons.
I'm currently one roll away from getting the deliverance pattern (deliverance is the reason I started raiding).
Once I get that, I'll be free from VOD and will finally be able to continue farming Crota for over souls and my Swordbreaker red boarders and all of the other Croata weapons.
Bungie IMO is doing all of this intentionally... Scaling back D2 content and making the loot grind harder since the content is shorter. They figure that the loot grind will keep us busy.
FYI. I got a 4 out of 5 God roll of Bitter/Sweet turing in potions to Eido, give it a try.
Roll dropped with hard launch + spike nades + envious arsenal + bait/switch. Only thing missing was handling MW.
Visit Eido and turn in your potions. Some of us are not using the potions anyway. 🍻
Crafting is also good because of resources.
If the ONLY thing you are farming an activity for is the weapon, then you just get bored and angry pulling a slot machine, sometimes for AGES. However, if you get a good amount of needed resources like Enhancement Cores or Prisms, hell even shards, you would actually want to farm weapons because it isn't the SOLE thing you are going for.
Adding more use cases for these resources as well, maybe masterworks for like cosmetics or something. You need more of them and so have more need/want to go and farm that weapon, you need resources anyways so 2 in 1.
Bungie should keep crafting but lock it until the end of the season with some benefit for using the non-crafted version to insensitive players to keep playing but to help if people are unlucky and don't get the god roll they want they're still guaranteed to get the roll they want at the end of the season.
Definitely feel like this is a better solution then not having crafting at all.
It sucks because Revenant would’ve had some of the best seasonal weapons in the game if they were craftable and more people had easier access to those desired rolls.
Vantage Point and Noxious Vetiver both with attrition orbs/jolting feedback. Scavenger’s Fate with a 5/5 PvP roll of slideshot or lone wolf/closing time would’ve made everyone quit using Matador (unless they nerf lone wolf and closing time). The season pass has Liturgy with disorienting/slideways/chill clip but also has volatile launch and blast radius MW (both completely useless, so it’s a 3/5 roll. Quick launch and handling MW is what you really want).
Almost all of these weapons are legit S tier and if we had more access to them then we would all have more fun with the build crafting potential.
Bad balance isn't a good reason to remove crafting. Balance better. Scav Fate already invalidates all other energy shotties simply because of bad balance.
In addition to what you said about how tonics work, i think a lot of times its also important how a system feels. And what is one of the biggest memes, if not the biggest in gaming: Potions.
And i dont want to be disrespectful but as seasoned devs they had to know that right? Show me any Potion, Elixir, Concoction, Draught, Perfume, whatever system and my eyes instantly glaze over.
Timer based, grindy buff systems like that always either fall into the " Hmm thats good, might need that gonna hoard it" category. Fast forward to you ending the game/season with 3000 of them in your bag. Oooor so convoluted or useless its not even worth engaging with.
And we got parts of both, so as a gamer i feel like ive been conditioned to not like it for years before ever even starting this season, which is a shame.
(sorry for the rant)
Realest mf to ever speak on this topic. I dont mind if its 15 red borders per gun or if it's multiple-perks on reset, but just guarantee a light at the end of that tunnel for people who grind for it.
As far as this season goes it is just the new elders tonics that didn't focus properly. If you were popping bitter sweet focus tonics with the amount you play it's near impossible to not eventually get envious/BnS. The tonics are actually pretty crazy there's a reddit post of someone using them with just kills and no activity completions and the drops are insanely high. You just gotta remember to pop them.
Crafting, no crafting.. this isn't what saves Destiny.
Over 10 resets on iron banner and no air trigger/chill clip drop. Really really crappy
Im tapped out after 2 resets, you must really love pvp to get 10.
Aint no fucking way 😬 damn
I’m calling BS on you, Shaggy.
Ten Iron Banner rank resets would take (roughly) 300 matches. That’s a LOT, but it’s certainly plausible that someone could play that much in 10 days’ time.
However, if one DID play out those 300 matches, s/he would earn at least 200 Iron Banner engrams. The probability of rolling Air Trigger + Chill Clip from any one focused roll is 2.04%. The CUMULATIVE probability of receiving that roll at least once, from 200 tries, is **98.4%**.
Is it possible that you’re telling the truth? Yes.
Is it overwhelmingly likely that you’re lying, though? Emphatically, YES.
Wtf, took me 14 engrams lol
People need crafting now because the old days of destiny 1 is long gone, the community and audience is completely different. they dont have the time they did then and the games direction is not what it was back in 2014. i HATE crafting but I know the need of the people and crafting just needs refinement to be rewarding but not turn on the game simplistic to achieve. bungie sadly has not found that happy medium.
Like you I primarily play to get better at the same, rather than specific weapon drops. But red borders are awesome, I would rather have that then total rng. I like the idea of attunement as you rank up
I noticed the request to get rid of crafting was coming from Streamers content creators and people who no life the game. No one else complained. Problem is, you can not put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once its there it needs to stay there. You DONT remove things from this game! Sunsetting should've taught us that. Plus, now that Bungie has been caught red handed "weighting" perks people are really gonna demand crafting back. They also now have huge perk pools on weapons. Plus, grinding is longer now than ever. Strikes are longer, Exotic Quests are longer and Dungeons as well. No one should be playing this game day in day out, you will grow to hate this game.... fast.
I'm with you 100%. I play content if it's fun and/or incredibly rewarding. I played contest of elders a lot more than onslaught salvation cause it's fun for me. I played echoes cause the guns could be crafted. I played og onslaught cause it was fun + all guns where good.
Crafting is nice if not for any other reason... vault space... I'm always full.
We have enough RNG with exotic drops, dungeons and world loot pools, armor stats, but at least my arsenal is something i can always rely on
I’m done trying until crafting comes back.
For me crafting is good. I can't get on lots each week so it's nice to be able to get red boarders (when I can) and be able to get the roll I want.