This reminds me of the Star Gate Universe search for lost Ancient/Alteran technology that would outpace even 32nd century Star Trek tech; the Alterans used both their StarGates and molecular disruptor to eliminate a galactic plague and restart life from programed DNA building blocks to begin a second evolution of the humanoid life form.
@@taiwansivispacemparabellum9546 Which explains why we, as their second evolution of their humanoid form, are plagued by mistakes and emergencies consequent to our decisions.
That would make sense as the female changling herself told Odo that they were evolved from humanoids; it explains the Dominion's proficiency at cloning without, seemingly, incurring the diminishing returns of cellular replication? Indeed, the Changlings might be older than all the corporeal lifeforms (excluding Organians & Q) in our Galaxy that achieved both sentients and civilisation?
Same here!! Unfortunately the haters of ST Discovery were so loud and I truly believe that’s what got the show cancelled. It was reported that the cast were surprised that this would be the final season 😔
@@jaklinhyde The pandemic played its part, resulting in many series calling it quits, such as Superstore. I suspect it was always going to end in 2023/ 2024, but originally that would have resulted in 7 seasons, alas it wasn't to be.
@@jamesknight3070 I just can’t help but feel like it’s ST enterprise all over again, after all these years lots of people now have realized how good enterprise actually was and we could’ve had the romulan/earth war but so called Star Trek fans didn’t support it
@@jaklinhyde The key difference this time is Paramount having numerous ST projects running simultaneously, with LD-5 coming this year and SNW-3 likely to be 2025. Additionally they have Academy in pre-production, and S31 movie in progress. Undoubtedly Disco has had a difficult run, with the Nacelle controversy long before it aired, re-writes to the latter half of S1, the technological era complaints, and now even moving beyond established canon into the unwritten future people are still moaning. Behind the scenes, I wouldn't be surprised if the main cast members have received offers to star in upcoming shows/ movies.
Ronald D. Moore has stated that he considered, but intentionally did not specify, that this species was the Preservers from TOS: "The Paradise Syndrome". He noted, "but this could be them and be internally consistent." It should be noted that the ancient humanoids seeded worlds 4.5 billion years ago, while American Indian cultures like the one saved by the Preservers only emerged in the last 10,000 years. Regardless, Star Trek Online has a storyline that confirms that the two races are the same within the canon of the game.
It's not inconceivable that they possessed time scanning technology at some point that searched for endangered species and scooped them up to preserve/study them? Let's not forget societies change as they acquire knowledge or suffer reverses - the Progenitors might have been the Preservers or vice versa?
The progenitors also made an appearance in Star Trek online Iconian war story, an Iconian interacts with a Progenitor and refers to her as Elder, the inference is that the species knew each other?
the fan theory goes, is that they are also the Founders in DS9. They said they were once Solids, before evolved into being Changerlings, and well they case Salome Jens, for the female Changling, and the first Alien, works too well even the episodes when they were both introduced is simular, the "Chase" for the Progenitors and "The Search" for the Dominion
Using the same actor/actress for two different species doesn't tie them together. If that were the case then what about every character played by Jeffrey Combs?
@@jbwright585 i know right, the moment the female changeling, said they were once solids, and since she was played by Salome Jens, i was like "I knew it". After all, why was the face of both Odo, female changeling and Progenitors so simular. Odo said it was the most comfortable for him...or a residual great link memory when they were still solids
And she looks very much like the Female Changeling here. I wonder why they didn't make this alien's design more different, especially since the actress used the same voice.
Exactly.. the Changlings acted as though they were gods as well and they look the same, perhaps they are actually one in the same or more directly related than the 'solids' whim take humanoid form.
@@rafaelweaver5592 What do you base this on? On the fact that they resemble each other? I have the understanding that the Founders look the way they do because they have difficulty duplicating the human form.
@@kwebb121765 actually, most Changelings/Founders can imitate other Humanoid Races PERFECTLY. The 'imposter' General Martok, the 'imposter' Dr. Bashir, the 'imposter' Romulan Colonal, and so on. My understanding is that since Odo seems to be the only Changeling/Founder who has trouble imitating other Humanoid Species, the Female Changeling and others simply chose to resemble Odo's appearance for the most part when interacting with 'Solids'.
the Progenitors in STNG were a canon cover/retcon for TOS limitations in its budget when it came to alien species, that continued until CGI tech evolved enough to be financially feasible for televised and motion picture production in current series production. Thanks to the Progenitors seeding their DNA in the primordial seas on thousands if not millions of worlds we now know why the humanoid appearance was the primary foundation of nearly all species. It dealt with the critique that Star Trek aliens just being humans with funny looking noses, ears, hair cuts, body paint, and funky clothing. It also explained why so very many were capable of cross breeding. In notes from TOS it was explained that Klingons were more budget friendly than Romulans, Andorians, etc. With advent of budget friendly CGI we got the appearance of non-humanoid aliens like some of the Xindi and the Gorn who were once guys in heavy rubber suits.
Now I understand it a little better. There's so much CG, AI, and AR wall stuff that I get confused and don't understand the plot. But I'm old, so now I get it.
As much as STO is apocryphal, one thing they brought forward and has always run true to me is that the progenitors were likely related in some fashion to the Preservers mentioned in TOS
OK I can dig this, just because the Progenitors was such a "One Off" plot point that was never revisited in the Star Trek TV franchise . Maybe lower decks touched on it ;P.
This may generally indicate why in the Star Trek universe different alien races can interbreed. Aside from certain species that may actually be directly related (e.g., Bajorans and Cardassians), it was always weird that Spock could exist...
@@kwebb121765 Picard season 1 and Enterprise indicated that you needed medical intervention of some kind but the... ahem... processes were all the same.
The same "Progenitors" were used in the show "Enterprise" As a race bent on taking over and reforming space to suit themselves. Capt. Archer and crew had to find the Xinde for trying to wipe out earth, which in turn led to them finding the "Progenitors".
@@amazedsatsuma I did not mean they used the same name My point was they used the same race of alien, Yes the Sphere builders were different but looked the same . Sorry I didn't use right wording.
@@mikebell6062 Yes they look similar, but my point was at no point during Enterprise 3rd season did the sphere builders were connected to that TNG episode...in fact everything we know about them imply they are 2 different species I mean Progenitors stated they were the original sentient species living in the Milky Way and decided to seed life far and wide in the galaxy so the next intergalactic powers that would rise up when they were gone won't be as lonely as they felt The Sphere builders on the other hand were native to a Trans-dimensional realm and they had a long term goal was to transform our space so they can freely exist in our reality without dying. Like I said Enterprise made no effort linking the two...so it is safe to assume they are not
I always thought it weird that the progenitors were never expanding on before now. I thought it also strange that the program was able to quickly reconfigure a tricorder into a holo-projector and basically no one assembled there or afterwards thought anything of it.
The most curious thing is this episode also supplies a possible solution to the Fermi Paradox / Equation. The reason why nobody seems to be out there is that WE are the Progenitors. We are the ones destined to spread life to all the other planets through out the galaxy, and possibly beyond.
Here's the thing I'm unable to understand: exactly WHY do so many people say "we've been sending signals into to space for around 60 years and haven't heard a response, so therefore no other life exists. Otherwise we would have heard something by now". I mean SERIOUSLY, how can anyone be that dense. If the nearest Alien Species was ONLY 60 Light Years away and recieved our first signals TODAY, it would STILL take another 60 years before we got a response even if that response was sent back IMMEDIATELY. And yet so many people blatantly IGNORE the fact that our signals have to obey the Laws of Physics and CAN'T travel faster than the Speed of Light, as well as the fact that our galaxy is approximately 100,000 Light Years across. And even though we've only been sending signals into space for about 60 years searching for Alien Species, those people STILL 'claim' "we're alone in the universe, there's NO other life. If there was, we would have heard from them by now". I mean SERIOUSLY?!? How can anyone actually believe that ignorance. That would be EXACTLY like someone going to the beach, dipping an empty glass into the water, and when there's no sea creatures in the glass saying "there's NO life in the ocean". That is EXACTLY what it's like.
"Cover up" ... The enterprise had a crew of over a thousand plus civilians, not to mention the warbird is said to have a similar number of crew, plus two galor class warships and a vorcha class... that's a lot of people to try and hush up, even if the four governments worked together which, seems unlikely. A more likely scenario is that the threads left behind by the progenitors were so few and far between that little concrete investigation was possible and, over time, people and civilisations lost interest in pursuing it. Plus, skepticism from more conservative factions would rule out wide scale research by many factions.
Obviously I'm not talking about Jeffrey Combs but given the fact said that we were one of the first races and we watched how solids treated us it would make sense and the fact that they look alike due to due to cheap actors and makeup it would make sense that that's where the writers would go
I wonder will Disco end this chase, in a mater similar to what happen in STO were it was reveal that some Progenitors hid themselves away in suspended animation and waited for their "children" to find them. Too bad they weren't touch upon again in the game until they were wipe out by the Iconians
The progenitors kind of remind me of the Dominion they did say that they started out of solids yawns ago besides the person standing there doing the hologram looks a lot like the leader that was in the alpha quadrant anyone ever notice that before
Star Trek Discovery livin up to its name 💥 i always believed that Discovery doesn't deserve the hate its recieving. I mean there are some cringey elements, but overall its pretty great tbh.
Progenitors were involved in Star Trek Online, so not exactly only TNG. STO is not cannon so much, but it contains so much which did not make the screen. For example, what happened to the Jem’Hadar that the Prophets prevented getting to DS9, due to Siskos request of them.
Just one of the single LARGEST world changing events to occur on Trek and then... everyone sort of ... forgot about it.
Just like the warp speed limit.
@@bjorn00000 That one was generically abiguous as I always assumed that it was in some high travel corridor and not generically...
One of my favorite TNG episodes!
This reminds me of the Star Gate Universe search for lost Ancient/Alteran technology that would outpace even 32nd century Star Trek tech; the Alterans used both their StarGates and molecular disruptor to eliminate a galactic plague and restart life from programed DNA building blocks to begin a second evolution of the humanoid life form.
Yeahhhhhh
Alterans are some of the most arrogant irresponsible sci-fi races I’ve watched even till today; I hope that’s what the writers were going for.
@@taiwansivispacemparabellum9546 Which explains why we, as their second evolution of their humanoid form, are plagued by mistakes and emergencies consequent to our decisions.
My thoughts exactly!
I always assumed that the Progenitors were in fact the changelings from DS9 prior to them evolving past the need for corporeal bodies
That would make sense as the female changling herself told Odo that they were evolved from humanoids; it explains the Dominion's proficiency at cloning without, seemingly, incurring the diminishing returns of cellular replication? Indeed, the Changlings might be older than all the corporeal lifeforms (excluding Organians & Q) in our Galaxy that achieved both sentients and civilisation?
I'm sad this season is the last I'll miss this show it's what got me excited about trek again.
Same here!! Unfortunately the haters of ST Discovery were so loud and I truly believe that’s what got the show cancelled. It was reported that the cast were surprised that this would be the final season 😔
@@jaklinhyde The pandemic played its part, resulting in many series calling it quits, such as Superstore.
I suspect it was always going to end in 2023/ 2024, but originally that would have resulted in 7 seasons, alas it wasn't to be.
@@jamesknight3070
I just can’t help but feel like it’s ST enterprise all over again, after all these years lots of people now have realized how good enterprise actually was and we could’ve had the romulan/earth war but so called Star Trek fans didn’t support it
@@jaklinhyde The key difference this time is Paramount having numerous ST projects running simultaneously, with LD-5 coming this year and SNW-3 likely to be 2025.
Additionally they have Academy in pre-production, and S31 movie in progress.
Undoubtedly Disco has had a difficult run, with the Nacelle controversy long before it aired, re-writes to the latter half of S1, the technological era complaints, and now even moving beyond established canon into the unwritten future people are still moaning.
Behind the scenes, I wouldn't be surprised if the main cast members have received offers to star in upcoming shows/ movies.
Ronald D. Moore has stated that he considered, but intentionally did not specify, that this species was the Preservers from TOS: "The Paradise Syndrome". He noted, "but this could be them and be internally consistent." It should be noted that the ancient humanoids seeded worlds 4.5 billion years ago, while American Indian cultures like the one saved by the Preservers only emerged in the last 10,000 years. Regardless, Star Trek Online has a storyline that confirms that the two races are the same within the canon of the game.
It's not inconceivable that they possessed time scanning technology at some point that searched for endangered species and scooped them up to preserve/study them? Let's not forget societies change as they acquire knowledge or suffer reverses - the Progenitors might have been the Preservers or vice versa?
The progenitors also made an appearance in Star Trek online Iconian war story, an Iconian interacts with a Progenitor and refers to her as Elder, the inference is that the species knew each other?
the fan theory goes, is that they are also the Founders in DS9. They said they were once Solids, before evolved into being Changerlings, and well they case Salome Jens, for the female Changling, and the first Alien, works too well
even the episodes when they were both introduced is simular, the "Chase" for the Progenitors and "The Search" for the Dominion
I've been saying this ever since DS9 show the changelings LOL same makeup same actor and makes since
Without proof of a more tangible connection, I'm skeptical its anything more than just using the sane sctress.
Using the same actor/actress for two different species doesn't tie them together. If that were the case then what about every character played by Jeffrey Combs?
@@jbwright585 i know right, the moment the female changeling, said they were once solids, and since she was played by Salome Jens, i was like "I knew it". After all, why was the face of both Odo, female changeling and Progenitors so simular. Odo said it was the most comfortable for him...or a residual great link memory when they were still solids
@@deathgnomes Jeffrey Coombs is a legend, that's why.
Played by Salome Jens who also played the female changeling on DS9
And she looks very much like the Female Changeling here. I wonder why they didn't make this alien's design more different, especially since the actress used the same voice.
Exactly.. the Changlings acted as though they were gods as well and they look the same, perhaps they are actually one in the same or more directly related than the 'solids' whim take humanoid form.
I have no Beta Canon to back me up,yet who would deny that Changelings could be a distant relative of the progenitors?
@@rafaelweaver5592 What do you base this on? On the fact that they resemble each other? I have the understanding that the Founders look the way they do because they have difficulty duplicating the human form.
@@kwebb121765 actually, most Changelings/Founders can imitate other Humanoid Races PERFECTLY. The 'imposter' General Martok, the 'imposter' Dr. Bashir, the 'imposter' Romulan Colonal, and so on. My understanding is that since Odo seems to be the only Changeling/Founder who has trouble imitating other Humanoid Species, the Female Changeling and others simply chose to resemble Odo's appearance for the most part when interacting with 'Solids'.
Good first two episodes
the Progenitors in STNG were a canon cover/retcon for TOS limitations in its budget when it came to alien species, that continued until CGI tech evolved enough to be financially feasible for televised and motion picture production in current series production. Thanks to the Progenitors seeding their DNA in the primordial seas on thousands if not millions of worlds we now know why the humanoid appearance was the primary foundation of nearly all species. It dealt with the critique that Star Trek aliens just being humans with funny looking noses, ears, hair cuts, body paint, and funky clothing. It also explained why so very many were capable of cross breeding. In notes from TOS it was explained that Klingons were more budget friendly than Romulans, Andorians, etc. With advent of budget friendly CGI we got the appearance of non-humanoid aliens like some of the Xindi and the Gorn who were once guys in heavy rubber suits.
Now I understand it a little better. There's so much CG, AI, and AR wall stuff that I get confused and don't understand the plot. But I'm old, so now I get it.
I always understood that episode was a one off to easily explain in canon why so many species could interbreed
As much as STO is apocryphal, one thing they brought forward and has always run true to me is that the progenitors were likely related in some fashion to the Preservers mentioned in TOS
OK I can dig this, just because the Progenitors was such a "One Off" plot point that was never revisited in the Star Trek TV franchise .
Maybe lower decks touched on it ;P.
Brilliant episode. One of my all time favorite Star Trek episodes.
Captain Jack looking good!
Of course, you WOULD approve of this, wouldn't you? 😆
This may generally indicate why in the Star Trek universe different alien races can interbreed. Aside from certain species that may actually be directly related (e.g., Bajorans and Cardassians), it was always weird that Spock could exist...
Who said Vulcans and humans could interbreed? Perhaps they have to use genetic engineering, though that might run into issues of legality.
@@kwebb121765 Picard season 1 and Enterprise indicated that you needed medical intervention of some kind but the... ahem... processes were all the same.
However, this is still a leap for genetics... it would be like a cat and a dog interbreeding.
Sounds like an interesting story for S5 but I just really struggle with that crew.
More info then I thought. Gladed I watched. Ty
Glad you enjoyed!
- Jack
The same "Progenitors" were used in the show "Enterprise" As a race bent on taking over
and reforming space to suit themselves. Capt. Archer and crew had to find the Xinde
for trying to wipe out earth, which in turn led to them finding the "Progenitors".
No at no point in Enterprise, the species refer as the sphere builders, were ever imply to be the Progenitors who seeded the milky way with life
@@amazedsatsuma I did not mean they used the same name
My point was they used the same race of alien, Yes the Sphere builders were different but looked the same .
Sorry I didn't use right wording.
@@mikebell6062 Yes they look similar, but my point was at no point during Enterprise 3rd season did the sphere builders were connected to that TNG episode...in fact everything we know about them imply they are 2 different species
I mean Progenitors stated they were the original sentient species living in the Milky Way and decided to seed life far and wide in the galaxy so the next intergalactic powers that would rise up when they were gone won't be as lonely as they felt
The Sphere builders on the other hand were native to a Trans-dimensional realm and they had a long term goal was to transform our space so they can freely exist in our reality without dying.
Like I said Enterprise made no effort linking the two...so it is safe to assume they are not
Captain got THE DRIP 🥵🥶🤯
My friend jokes that this episode was made to explain away the lack of variation in species.
That is not a joke...
What is the "Pathway Drive", and how is it different from the Warp Drive???
Hyperspace lanes?
I was just going to ignore this season but then they pulled out one of the best mysteries in star trek.
I always thought it weird that the progenitors were never expanding on before now. I thought it also strange that the program was able to quickly reconfigure a tricorder into a holo-projector and basically no one assembled there or afterwards thought anything of it.
41st I loved that episode and the idea of a alien race seeding mankind and other aliens / sidenote: Like your NEW SMILE :)
Norman Lloyd as Galen 😊
It looks a little bit like a hunt to find all the segments of the Key to Time. Beware the Black Guardian.
The most curious thing is this episode also supplies a possible solution to the Fermi Paradox / Equation. The reason why nobody seems to be out there is that WE are the Progenitors. We are the ones destined to spread life to all the other planets through out the galaxy, and possibly beyond.
Here's the thing I'm unable to understand: exactly WHY do so many people say "we've been sending signals into to space for around 60 years and haven't heard a response, so therefore no other life exists. Otherwise we would have heard something by now". I mean SERIOUSLY, how can anyone be that dense. If the nearest Alien Species was ONLY 60 Light Years away and recieved our first signals TODAY, it would STILL take another 60 years before we got a response even if that response was sent back IMMEDIATELY. And yet so many people blatantly IGNORE the fact that our signals have to obey the Laws of Physics and CAN'T travel faster than the Speed of Light, as well as the fact that our galaxy is approximately 100,000 Light Years across. And even though we've only been sending signals into space for about 60 years searching for Alien Species, those people STILL 'claim' "we're alone in the universe, there's NO other life. If there was, we would have heard from them by now".
I mean SERIOUSLY?!? How can anyone actually believe that ignorance.
That would be EXACTLY like someone going to the beach, dipping an empty glass into the water, and when there's no sea creatures in the glass saying "there's NO life in the ocean". That is EXACTLY what it's like.
Could the Progenitors be related to the Preservers of the TOS episode The Paradise Syndrome?
I believe there has been some suggestions
Looking forward to it
"Cover up" ... The enterprise had a crew of over a thousand plus civilians, not to mention the warbird is said to have a similar number of crew, plus two galor class warships and a vorcha class... that's a lot of people to try and hush up, even if the four governments worked together which, seems unlikely. A more likely scenario is that the threads left behind by the progenitors were so few and far between that little concrete investigation was possible and, over time, people and civilisations lost interest in pursuing it. Plus, skepticism from more conservative factions would rule out wide scale research by many factions.
Obviously I'm not talking about Jeffrey Combs but given the fact said that we were one of the first races and we watched how solids treated us it would make sense and the fact that they look alike due to due to cheap actors and makeup it would make sense that that's where the writers would go
I wonder will Disco end this chase, in a mater similar to what happen in STO were it was reveal that some Progenitors hid themselves away in suspended animation and waited for their "children" to find them. Too bad they weren't touch upon again in the game until they were wipe out by the Iconians
The progenitors kind of remind me of the Dominion they did say that they started out of solids yawns ago besides the person standing there doing the hologram looks a lot like the leader that was in the alpha quadrant anyone ever notice that before
If you like any of the new shows that's because of Discovery because Discovery is the first thing that came out in over 20 years
Note that Kovich has the Kurlan naiskos in his quarters in this episode...!
Oh does he? I must have missed that?
Ohh ohhh another one for those that don't want to just watch a show. be sure to "wait till the end" and click that bell. sigh
Your teeth are looking great man.
They're changlings.
Why call The Progenitors aliens? surely the were the first and if anything everyone else are the aliens!
My head cannon has always been that the progenitors are the proto-Q
Star Trek Discovery livin up to its name 💥 i always believed that Discovery doesn't deserve the hate its recieving. I mean there are some cringey elements, but overall its pretty great tbh.
Bro, some constructive criticism. Work on your enunciation. You're speaking so fast, half the words get eaten. It's hard to understand.
I, admittedly, am not a fan of Discovery. And this is a reason. They are just syphoning ideas from TNG and older stories, nothing original.
Progenitors were involved in Star Trek Online, so not exactly only TNG. STO is not cannon so much, but it contains so much which did not make the screen. For example, what happened to the Jem’Hadar that the Prophets prevented getting to DS9, due to Siskos request of them.
Just admit it you dont like the captain being a black woman🤣 or the guy guys,
Or the trans ppl
Imagine telling North Koreans and South Koreans that they are related
sadly this has to be on Discovery so not interested.
me: "Why do all aliens look like humans?"
OG trek: "we had a limited prosthetics budget"
Discovery: "WeLl AkShuAllY......."
So season 6 of TNG is now consider to be "Discovery" -__-
I didn't realize TNG was considered Discovery. But sure, go on hating mindlessly.
Actually, it was Roddenberry who didn't want TNG aliens looking too alien. In the subsequent Berman-era shows, they loosened up on that rule a bit.