I can see the point about seeing the projectiles coming at your formation while in flight, though to me it also seems like it'd be terrifying if all of a sudden you hear sling stones/projectiles cracking your comrades' faces and other unprotected areas almost out of nowhere.
A half pound (~250 gram) slingstone, I would think you could see that coming, though it might not be slow enough to actually dodge. A much smaller, lighter (~100 grams) and faster lead bullet however, you wouldn't see coming. I could think that sling bullets would do greater damage to morale with the fact that you can't see them coming.
One can die in Iowa in a hail storm , ice x 1/2 inch will do , you get pummeled , it's the worst , also of note , the near misses an deflections hurt , bad for moral , spooks horses ,ect.
A sling is accurate enough if you happen to be fighting someone six cubits and a span tall. Especially if he was dumb enough to bring a sword to a sling-fight.
You got them. Nobody thought "six cubits, that's really tall. Nobody is that ... oh wait a minute ... there was that Golliath guy. And Daniel ... oh". Good one Daniel!
@@JoeyVol Officially a cubit was the length of the forearm between the elbow and end of the middle digit. In Egypt in order to standardise the length across the kingdom this was Pharaoh's cubit. They would make up metal measuring rods and recast them when a new Pharaoh was crowned. So it varied in ancient Egypt. So the Pharaoh was literally the ruler of the kingdom.
@@andrewharper1609 so happy for our standardized measures and weighs. proper systems are really necessary for the functioning of a large precise society
@@citricdemon I think the first known use of the standardized measure goes back to Hammurabi in Babylon. Whenever he is depicted it's with a ruler. Coincidentally his is the first known code of laws. What's mildly interesting from the British perspective was that Richard the third was greatly concerned with fair weights and measures. He even went so far as to document how wet wool should be when weighed. He had many faults but denying people fair recompense doesn't seem to have been one of them.
@@JBGARINGAN yeah, it really can't. Javelins are skirmishing weapons. They’re for throwing at considerably shorter range than shooting a bow, and they would make an improvised melee weapon at best. They’re also quite big and awkward to carry considering you only get one shot.
OK, I know this post and comments are pretty much ancient history at this point, but I want to throw in my experience with slings from about, oh, maybe 45 years ago when I was young and exuberant. My cousin and I, for reasons long forgotten, decided we wanted to learn how to use a sling. We ended up with a sling about 30 inches long or so (when doubled) and did a lot of practice with it. We go to where we could consistently hit the flat of a 2x6 leaned against the fence from about 40 or 50 feet (could have been closer to 75, but 50 seems fair). We were using roundish rocks about 1.5 inches in diameter. We could easily drive those rocks entirely through the 2x6, leaving a huge hole in the backside. We also discovered that we could sling those stones down the length of the property, roughly a quarter-mile into a bunch of large fir trees and occasionally (purely by chance, I assure you) knock fairly good sized branches down. Moreover, we learned through the assistance of the county sheriff's department that those stone were continuing another 50 yards or so and striking a house. There was considerable drop down the hill to that house, perhaps close to 100 feet lower than where we were, and we were basically just blazing stones into the sky to see how far we could watch them go. (and yes, we did pay to replace some windows) So no question about power, surprising accuracy, and really scary range.
Slings are quite common in the Andes. Beautiful braided alpaca wool too. I saw a viddy of a protest over land rights with the army dodging sling bullets. (which I read, were often unfired clay- it's the imparted kinetic energy which kills, not penetration- ask Pizarro's little brother who was killed at Saqsahuaman despite his helmet...) I tried my first sling out at Saqsahuaman (when there weren't any tour groups about) and found the bastions are an easy sling throw apart: no coincidence there, I believe. I achieved accuracy equivalent to what you mentioned in a very short time, so I think the Balearic slingers could have been pretty hot if they had been at it since they were toddlers.
I've seen videos of people using slings with great acuracy. Yes, the targets are bigger, but there are those who can hit the center consistantly. The target for a sling doesn't have the rings of an archer's target because the stone doesn't stick in the target like an arrow does. So you would not be able compare the accuracy of the different throws like you would in archery or darts.
@@michaelfranciotti3900 Not really though, one could easily use a recently painted stone, or even chalk like Lindy!, to measure slingshot throws like you would arrows..
Let's see, I am an ancient military bean counter and I have to choose which long range weapon to outfit the men with, let us look. The launcher itself, how much do they cost, a bow that you would use in battle, probably about a quarter to half its weight in silver (possibly more) whereas a sling, a few coppers. No contest there. How about the ammo? The arrows basic ammo (straight wooden sticks with fletching) take about ten minutes to make apiece, and war arrows cost a pretty penny because a blacksmith has to make the arrowhead, and a fletcher to make the arrows. How about slings? Basic ammo is free, it is stones on the road, and take three seconds apiece to gather, and the specialized bullets are just lead poured into a sand mold, so take minutes to make for pennies on the dollar. Finally, does it take a specialized soldier to use them. Bows, absolutely, archers are there when the battle is long range and that is it. Slings, you can use them with SHIELDS! Once the enemy gets too close, these shield bearing slingers could just put the slings in their belts and draw spears, sword, or axes, and fight close in. Advantage slings. So you buy archers when the budget has some padding in it, for their greater accuracy, and all that other jazz, and slings for other times. Not a hard decision to make from a dollars and cents point of view.
Yet archers became more prevalent suggesting that it was worth spending the extra coin on them. People wouldn’t have done that if they were not getting better results with archers over slingshot.
@@sotohigake9854, bow and arrow requires a fair amount of training, all things considered. It was literally the main point of contention between bows and crossbows.
The primary advantage I see to slinging is the light weight, low cost and improvised ammo. Yes, you can craft arrows in the field, but you still have to craft them. Slings would have been ideal for the peasant classes, as they could use them in their daily lives and then be formed into a makeshift slinging squad during warfare.
***** No no no, I just meant, you could craft them outside at a makeshift camp or something. But it would be labor-intensive work and require some tools. If you have a sling and need ammo before or after a fight, let's say when you're moving to the next battle or running away from one you lost, you just head near the river and pick up some stones. And in day-to-day life, you could hunt, herd sheep, defend your property from animals, and if you needed more ammo for your sling, there are usually some rocks on the ground. So it was very low-cost and low-effort to keep your sling stocked with ammo.
@@citricdemon Warbows differ from the usual bow that a hunter would use. When bow technology improved and become more available you start to find more in the battlefield but slings still was used.
It seems to me that slings would be a great weapon of default for an ancient society - cheap enough for everyone to own one, portable enough for everyone to carry one, and relatively easy to learn. If I were the leader of an ancient clan I might expect everyone to practice and carry the sling.
Dear lindybeige, i am italian, And i have been follouing your sermons for a Long time, honestly more than The words i interpret your gestures, it seems that from time a urricane with a Nice sling shot to slash the darkness and open a window of Light and truth on this blessed slingshot from us and our forefathers held in high regard both in peace and in war, while you hold us in suspense waithing for this event. Although we say our lingshot is The Latin lingshot it is The best and The most used in The mediterranean basin by remote time, italy has been The cot of thecivilization of the culture of the sling and The land of the largest slinger. However do not worry in waithing for any appropriate gesture we Will offer you some modest launch of sling in honor of the lindybeige People without offense, just for knowledge , we were and we are still the Best slinger existing. With admiration and respect i greet you from italy sardinye . Tziu panai.
For the modern slinger, this is definitely an advantage, yes. In ancient warfare, I doubt this factor was a major one. The cost of getting the man to get to where he needs to get to, feeding him etc. greatly out-weigh the extra cost of arrows.
This was quite a small bullet/rock. You can shoot small-fist sized rocks from a long sling, and these would pack quite a punch. That second stone you show is more like it. ;)
I have used both sling and bow in hunting. I prefer the sling for smaller game, it is very accurate (for me) out to about 60 meters. That took me about a year to get that good. The bow is accurate to a much greater range, you can also bring down larger game. (face it a pointy stick going into a creature with a hide in the ribs is going to do more damage than a rock).
I'm from the Balearic Islands and I remember learning sling, crafting it, and we even went as far as a test, but never as far as consider it a national sport.
The one type of sling you haven't mentioned in these sling videos (that I've noticed anyway) is the *sling staff* or *staff sling*. Stick your sling on the end of a 3 to 6-foot staff that you swing overhand, and you essentially have the human precursor to the trebuchet. And like a trebuchet, you can sling a bigger, heavier rock (or a pottery grenade full of flaming oil) a lot farther and a lot harder than just by using the sling alone.
I didn't even notice, had to go back to listen again! - I was just struck by the fact that he said it at all, I thought it was a saying from the U.S. midwest, my folks and people like them were the only ones I ever heard say it (transplanted Iowans living in California).
@@regular-joe I had to rewind to confirm it myself; that's interesting and ironic as I first came across it in Australia in a New Zealand comic called "Footrot Flats" (of which there's a great movie :), so I'm assuming it's of English origin. .
Ive been hunting since I was "Grass high to a knee hopper"...and one thing is for certain: Animals, which must be wary of predators if they wish to remain alive, are keenly aware of movement. Even the shortest windup in preparation of casting a stone, via sling, is far more noticeable than the movement of drawing a bow before you loose an arrow at your quarry. An animal on the run is far more difficult to hit than one standing still...another huge advantage for hunting with the bow and arrow!
On the accuracy of slings, I more or less agree (I'm an engineering student), the shepherds sling is a length or rope, cord, leather etc. As you wind up a shot, the cord twists. When slinging, one of the standard methods is, a single rotation to seat the stone/dart, then a single faster rotation followed by the release. More accuracy can be achieved by skipping the seating rotation, greater distance and power, but subsequently lower accuracy can be achieved by more then one wind up rotations to build up speed. Either way the cord is going to twist as you release. However, practice with *your* sling can combat that. You can calibrate it so to speak, building intuition on how the twists in the cord are going to alter your shot. What I'm saying is basically pin point accuracy with a sling is in my opinion possible, but a *lot* harder then with a bow and specific to your weapon: use someone else's and you'll lose it.
Another Great video. thanks for pointing out weather implications and their effect on bows and slings, really appreciated. Keep up the awesome video's dude. :-)
King David was said to employ pairs of right & left handed slingers who could cast a stone within a handwidth of the target. There is some evidence these stingers assaulted infantry formation at mid distance. I imagine the worked as did the Roman Plumbata.
In forgetting to discuss shields, looks like you have subjected us to the slings and errors of outrageous fortune. I like this attention to slings. Most weapon experts just love their favorite queen of battle, whether that is a sword or axe or mace and forget that it is only a part of a cultural technology of war. We still have skirmishers. Their the air forces that go out and mess it up before the ground forces have even see each other. The difference is that they are now the highest tech in the battle, not the lowest.
@johndharvey You really wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either. A sling stone could do more damage without penetrating, but an arrow might have more "bite" for penetrating. I'd have thought that an arrow from a war bow would probably do more damage at close range, but a sling might win out at longer range.
The real difference here is accuracy, vs precision. Precision is earned through practice, accuracy is inherent to the design and crafting. It is harder to make an accurate bow vs an accurate sling, both because the sling is simpler and because the preferred ammunition is lead egg-shaped bullets. Lead just makes for a more accurate projectile than wood.
On the notion of Sling bullets being less effective in scattering your enemies: There were 'whistling glandes'... So a close miss by smth. that you can hear but not see and know to be fairly dangerous, might intimidate you more, then the barrage of arrows, which can see and therefore know when its time to raise your shield before its time to duck and cover.
Chalk Rock, Melbourne Rock, and Totternhoe Stone, are the hard rock bands within the Upper Chalk, that are used to make the white chequer pattern in English churches (In towns where these layers are found, the best houses are built in rows that follow the edge contour where they meet the scarp slope.). The rest of The Chalk series ranges from grey mud to powdery massive blocks like those in Beachey Head. If you sling up a piece of building grade chalk stone, it won't go 'poof' when you hit a tree. If you have the other kind around you, then you also have flint. So the need to throw the soft stuff is going to be rare.
when i was younger (11 of so) i could regularly (7 times out of 10 or so) hit beer cans at about 20 meters of so with the sling i made from bootlaces and leather so i know for a fact that accuracy is possible with a sling but your right past about 30 yards it gets alot harder to hit small targets there was a stump in the feild in front of my house maybe 70 or 80 yards away and i could hit it maybe 1 out of three times its like throwing rocks by hand the farther the target the harder to hit
@ShowYourWorking It is worth knowing how to do it, not least because the sling is so cheap, and so readily improvised. A situation might come up when troops could slings stones at their foes, perhaps during a siege. They men would not always have to be expert to be effective.
I put a lot of time and effort into being remarkably accurate with a snub nosed (short barreled) .38, but its still easier to be just as accurate with my 1911.
I've come up with a fun pastime! Watch every Lindybeige episode chronologically: You can follow the development of the photo-wall throughout both told and ongoing history!
"Algarve a portrait and a guide (1963)" one of my favorite reads, one of the chapters gives a contemporary account of a herdsman using a sling. Not saying your wrong at all with the accuracy side of things but interesting comparison, just found your stuff, interesting. Keep up the good work.
As someone proficient in the Byzantine style, to toot my own horn, I would completely agree re: slings less accurate than bows. It's very tough to get consistently accurate with a sling, especially at significant range.
People dont consider that stones vary more that other types of missiles, and have generally poor aerodynamics. That has got to make it even harder to be consistent that with a bow.
***** I'm sure that's entirely true, but I don't think it's too big a factor in the issue. It's more to do with the motion of casting the sling, it's very...exuberant. Archery is very linear - you shoot the arrow straight forward, which allows you to be a damn sight more accurate than when you're swinging a sling around. I tell you what, slings are shockingly powerful weapons though.
***** I'm actually doing mercenary work for Carthage. We'll have the Romans brought to heel in no time, though, so I'll probably go back to office work after that.
***** Still looks like munition consistency was still an issue, but now I'm far more interested in the fact that people wrote on the bullets. "Catch!" was my favourite.
***** the Romans and the Greeks both cast munitions for the sling in the form of lead bullets or glans. They were quite consistent so I imagine that would help while the supplies lasted.
I nearly missed the point as my brain danced with "grass high to a kneehopper," but yeah, somebody who practiced from childhood with a bow and arrows could also get awesome accurate. So, would David have used a short sling when going up against Goliath? He needed to be accurate, but he also needed power.
if goliath was 6' 9'' i'd say a short sling would be fine. if he was 9' 2'' maybe a long sling. so it might come down to your version of the bible. there is some dispute about which translation is correct of the above 2.
David Ducker A 9' 2" man could exist, but he'd hardly be able to move. Then again, if you're that intimidating, you don't need to hardly move... unless some uppity shepherd boy with a sling comes along.
Actually, Cracked.com gives a very interesting explanation for the Goliath story: Goliath's gigantism is caused by a pituitary disorder called acromegaly. One of the side effects of such disorders is blurred vision, hence why Goliath had to be led out onto the field by an attendant. Slings are already fairly powerful weapons, but David specifically chose stones that were as dense and aerodynamic as possible--from the Valley of Elah, a place known by modern geologists for sometimes producing stones roughly twice as dense as normal. David brought a handgun to a sword fight. Source: www.cracked.com/article_22708_5-badass-stories-in-bible-explained-by-science.html and my own (admittedly limited) knowledge of the Bible
David would have also used a Sheppard's Sling. A Sheppard's Sling is considerably more powerful than a small sling because it's on the end of a wooden pole.
Thinking mechanically. I can't see how essentially an assisted throw could be more powerful than the reduculous levels of energy you get from a bow. Though you are correct the fact that stones are denser would make them more damaging.
All the reading I've done on ancient warfare would tend to suggest that a mixture of missiles is desirable. On foot; javelins (heavy and light), bows and slings. On horseback javelins, and bows. Darts like Martiobarbulii and Plumbata might also feature in there somewhere.
Joshua Macy Yes but that's a 0 level human.. It still doesn't make sense in a game where you gain HP every level and end up with ridiculous amounts of it. In fact any game that involves HP or at least people having vastly different HP from one another doesn't make sense at all.
Slings will never be more accurate because it requires more movement. If you play anything that requires precision (darts, snooker, etc.), you would know that the lesser the movement, the more accurate you are.
kin2naruto I should clarify myself: by lesser I meant less joints are moving. I don't play baseball, but in golf, you're expected to lock your wrists, your elbows and stand still, instead of doing a run-up like Adam Sandler.
+kin2naruto I would guess baseballs are less accurate than arrows though, somewhere between them and a sling. Slings are essentially flexible lever arms used to add on to your arms natural throwing motion, resulting in a more powerful, though less accurate, throw.
sound general principle but you are misusing it by saying "never". in order for your statement to be absolute, there would have to be a perfect 1:1 correlation between complexity of movement and precision, which is obviously not possible to even possibly be the case.
Chalk rock has a Mohs' hardness of 3 (out of 10) and, more importantly, a very fine-grained matrix so it makes complete sense that it would vaporize instead of shatter like Calcite (also a 3) would.
Diodorus Siculus' chronicle of the Battle of Eknomos in 311BC: "But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered and that the Greeks in constantly increasing number were making their way into the camp, he brought up his slingers, who came from the Balearic Islands and numbered at least a thousand. By hurling a shower of great stones, they wounded many and even killed not a few of those who were attacking, and they shattered the defensive armour of most of them."
also, if it takes you a lifetime to use a sling good enough to be able to join the army and only a fraction of the time to qualify you for a bow, doesn't that say something about the slings accuracy being lower? Lower accuracy, more training required
didn't bow also take a lifetime to learn how to use properly/effectively? not to mention require you to have peak upper body strength, i assume it would be more cost effective to learn spear or axe, since they are relatively simple to handle and a decent spear-man took about 6 weeks to train
There's nothing about pulling a string that's attached to a spring back with an arrow nocked to it that's mentally challenging to average human beings. Bows are quite a bit more dependent on strength than many other ranged weapons, especially if you aim them with the string pulled all the way back (at full draw). I've only used 40 and 50 pound bows, and gotten out of the shape required to easily use them a few times. Doing as many pushups in a row as the bow weighed solved that problem. From this, I imagine that strength might have been somewhat more quickly attainable than most believe, but classical and medieval archers didn't eat as well as we do today and I don't fully understand how that may have penalized the strength they may have gained from exercise. As for the skill of aiming a bow it'd mostly be memorizing how much arrows drop due to gravity at certain distances and getting a consistent release without jerking your bow as the arrow leaves it.
Took me a couple of days to use a sling with some accuracy, to use a longbow of 200 pound draw takes many, many years, so try it some time I guarantee it will take you a VERY long time to even learn how to draw 200 pounds with one arm let alone to be accurate, archery training in the middle ages started at about the age of five and takes no strength to sling a stone
The huge advantage in my mind is ammo......arrows take a special skill to make and the bow also, any army would want the ability to hit the enemy at any time from a distance
Did you mention manuveurability ? It's hard to run and shoot and shooting a bow take sa moment, stand there take aim draw and release whereas a sling is just "load and throw". Notably, arrows would often be stabbed int he ground before shooting. I don't know if the ancients did it for convenience or if they knew but this often led to someone who was wounded but not killed dying by infection a few days later due to dirt getting into their wound on the arrowhead.
(A bit late with the answer I know) I think the infection thing was just a coincidence. I don't know that much about ancient battles, but I don't think there was much nationalistic hatred involved. War's just a war, another form of bussiness and making people that you want to subjugate (they could even later become your soldiers, who knows) dying by infections is really pointless as (as you pointer out) it would have no effect on the battle itself. But that's just my thought. If someone knows the truth, feel free to correct me.
Little late, but I don't believe anyone actually did this with their arrows, for a whole bunch of reasons. First, they carried them to the battle in something already, why not just keep carrying them in that thing until actually ready to be deployed, because in the second place arrows aren't that sturdy and sticking them into the ground in a rush might cause you to break the shaft, or break whatever holds the point on, and then you have arrows stuck in the ground, what happens if you have to move? Then you pull them out of the dirt and there's a bit of muck stuck on one side of the tip and when you shoot it throws off your aim, and ... all this sounds exactly like the thing the first sergeant of archers would be screaming at you about on day one of archery boot camp. "Never stick your arrows in the dirt, you stupid farm boys! What, do you think this is, some kind of movie?!" No, just no.
@@forge20 you do know Thats a quiver has a limited capasity right? Archers could fire many arrows during a battle, and ten arrows may not due the trick. Ancient armies had logistics as well.
If you consider the sling as a volley weapon, accuracy is far less crucial. In fact, I wonder how accurate a heavy yew war bow was after the first five shots? A very heavy bow is not held at full draw to aim--it is a constant movement from draw to release. A hunting bow generally has a draw weight of 50 lbs--and less in indigenous cultures--and is intended to be very accurate at close range and put a deer down pretty promptly with a fatal hit. A war bow is designed to hit a human, some of the time, somewhere on his body at a much greater range. A disabling wound is sufficient. And I'm pretty sure that a collapsing release and premature release was pretty common after the first few shots with a heavy war bow. The bow has got to be a much better ambush weapon, though. And a damn sight better in dense woods! In fact some slinging styles would be greatly hampered in knee high brush.
Arrows do have a tendency to self correct in a cross wind because the feather end of the arrow catches more wind than the arrow head and so the the arrow still keeps pointing at it's target.
Re seeing arrows - I've heard you can actually hear them, too, that they make a weird sound if they're coming right at you. So if you're fighting in a shield wall, and you hear something weird coming towards you, don't look up and end up like Harold Hadrada. Or, if you do look up, raise your shield too!
Hmmm.... according to my archery club mentor, arrows are less affected by sideways wind than you'd think.... The sideways wind will push the rear of the arrow more than the front as the fletchings catch the wind more. So the arrow is now pointing more upwind... which means it's compensating somewhat for the sideways wind... Can't cancel it out, but less than you'd think. I haven't shot enough outdoors with a sideways wind yet in the last year to give evidence, but the theory seems sound...
Pretty sure this is already settled. Pretty sure there are reliable ancient military accounts of tribal slingers (who sling from childhood well into adulthood) that could hit a torso sized targets reliably, at roughly over 100 yards.
So where does North America end and Mesoamerica begin? Yes, rate of fire is a difficult thing to quantify. I think the fastest archers were probably faster than the fastest slingers, but how significant this was in battles I could not say.
Is shooting a war bow not very different to the modern archery practiced today? Due to the greater poundage of draw weight of war bows does the archer not tend to fire more reflexively rather than the careful aim of modern archery where the arrow is held to the ear and aimed more carefully. So the sling might actually be easier to aim under these actual battlefield conditions and therefore potentially be more accurate?
In a desperate situation, do you think a sling could be used as a garrote? Assuming you've lost all other weapons available and you need to defend yourself or help a friend *immediately* and don't have time to retrieve a weapon from the ground. It is basically just a short rope.
My thoughts on accuracy. On the battlefields of yesteryear, the ranged weapons were not so much sniper rifles as artillery. Yes, you would have archers or singers who would aim specifically at a single man and take him out at a ridiculous range, but I don't expect that this was the norm. When the English longbowmen practised their archery, the targets weren't up on stands, but drawn on the ground, or so I hear. So the way I see both bows and slings being used - for the most part - was that a formation of bow/sling men would aim, not at different individuals as you would with a rifle, but at an area. Anything in that area would be obliterated by thousands or arrows or rocks. So, rather than thinking of accuracy in terms of the battle broken up into a number of 1vs1 duels, I suggest looking at it in this way. This formation attacks that area and inflicts this many losses on that formation. Yes, you would want an archer or sling man to take out sentries in order to make your sneak attacks, etc, but I don't think the way we understand aiming today (due to guns) is the same as the way the ancients understood it. Consider: range (parabolic trajectory over distances), charging infantry and cavalry and then of course that both projectiles were substantially slower than bullets fired from rifles. If someone aims at you and pulls the trigger, from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle, you have no time to see it and react. Long distance warfare with bows and slings was different, even if you didn't see the sky darken with sling stones, if you saw a formation of slingers all sending off a whole lot of stones or bullets, you could get your shield up. Just my thoughts on the matter, that they aimed in formation, not at individuals but at an area, the approach wasn't "I'm aiming at that man, oh bugger, I missed!" but rather "we are aiming over there, we hit 25 people!"
i made and have practised with both and the staff sling i found was okay, it required a lot less room for me, but i found it a pain in the butt to use effectively. i did find using the sling was interesting and i found the simple overhanded technique to the be the most effective It also didn't too long to be reasonably accurate either i made them to experiment with the usefulness of slings versus arrows as i was and am an avid roleplayer and roleplaying game writer
What about obsidian stones in a sling? you could knap it into a reasonable sphere relatively quickly, it's pretty hard and when it shatters you could get collateral damage to nearby enemies eyes.
Terminology varies by country, but what most people in the US learn is that "North America" is everywhere north of the Isthmus of Panama, with everything South else being "South America." "Latin America" is all the parts of the Americas EXCEPT the US and Canada, and "Mesoamerica" or "Central America" is the area of overlap between Latin America and North America. The Aztecs were (mostly) in modern-day Mexico, so they are North, Latin, AND Central American.
In continuation; Slingers fighting in non-ideal circumstances such as when supply lines were stretched or cut off, could maintain a better battlefield standard than archers. Make-shift sling ammunition from scavenged rocks or hastily moulded lead or other soft metals function almost on part with actual leaden shot. Where as hastily gathering straight-ish branches or suitable fire-wood for impromptu arrow-making makes for less than useful ammunition. Lastly, quantity, how much can you carry?
I think both were of equal effectiveness in pitched battle in ideal circumstances. But I do believe the sling outclasses the bow in terms of skirmishing and fighting in non-ideal circumstances. I can see people with sling loaded, and whirling it about their heads to build momentum, whilst advancing or otherwise moving lithely. With a bow, it's much more difficult to remain equally mobile, and be able to stop to take a shot before getting back on the move, loading, and searching for targets.
Slings are more accurate than bows, can be fired much faster and have a range of 200-400 meters. Mallorca has a competition every year for Bellareic slinging. And yes, you do need to be slinging from youth to master it. The target is a metal disc 12 inches, not 1 meter as stated.
18mm is indoor archery outdoor fita round 90, 70, 50 and 30 metres at 80cm and 122cm targets and agree i learned people to shoot a bow in a day by end of day they will be hitting the bull at 50m no problem
KyrosV128 Hannibal used them a lot,for example in an ambush he almost destroyed the half of a roman army,because they thought they were only fighting slingers,that were on a hill. They walked in the Testudo Formation at them(good against projectiles but slow and inefficient in Battle,also hindered their sight). They walked straight at them and didn't notice the Cartaghinian, Celtic and Iberian Soldiers positioned by the sides of the hill. These attacked the Romans and encircled them. They were also often used by Hannibal,to stop Skirmishers and to provoke the enemy to attack(Battle of the Trebia)
My hat is a sling. My belt, is also a sling. Shoelaces? No, slings. I don't wear boxers, I wear a g-sling.
so kul
My sling is a machinegun.
G sling? That sounds ummm unsanitary.
@@qwertyqwerty-ek7dy Machine guns aren't slings.
@@devinm.6149 Mine is. :)
That was a rather impressive sheep impression!
Richard Scott that is a surprisingly hard sentence to say out loud with any speed
🤔Not baa-d...
@@kennethbain4290 ewe need to stop with the puns
@@davidseddon2157 never
10/10 sheep noise.
It's called a "bleat"
Wha bwahaha
The first thing to come to mind when you said "Cloud of arrows" was "Then we shall have our fight in the shade." :)
+Patrick Stewart "So much the better; we'll fight in the shade"
Grass height to a knee hopper is a phrase that has lived in my head rent free in Lloyd’s voice for the past almost decade. Thank you sir
3:08 Grass high to a knee-hopper!! LOL!
That had me bursting! :D
I can see the point about seeing the projectiles coming at your formation while in flight, though to me it also seems like it'd be terrifying if all of a sudden you hear sling stones/projectiles cracking your comrades' faces and other unprotected areas almost out of nowhere.
A half pound (~250 gram) slingstone, I would think you could see that coming, though it might not be slow enough to actually dodge. A much smaller, lighter (~100 grams) and faster lead bullet however, you wouldn't see coming. I could think that sling bullets would do greater damage to morale with the fact that you can't see them coming.
The Romans made special bullets that whistled making them scary as hell. Check jorg sprag video on it.
bring an orchestra to inspire fear in the enemy
One can die in Iowa in a hail storm , ice x 1/2 inch will do , you get pummeled , it's the worst , also of note , the near misses an deflections hurt , bad for moral , spooks horses ,ect.
A sling is accurate enough if you happen to be fighting someone six cubits and a span tall. Especially if he was dumb enough to bring a sword to a sling-fight.
You got them. Nobody thought "six cubits, that's really tall. Nobody is that ... oh wait a minute ... there was that Golliath guy. And Daniel ... oh". Good one Daniel!
Americans still wondering what in the hell the length of a cubit is; even though context clues lead me to believe it's about a yard.
@@JoeyVol Officially a cubit was the length of the forearm between the elbow and end of the middle digit. In Egypt in order to standardise the length across the kingdom this was Pharaoh's cubit. They would make up metal measuring rods and recast them when a new Pharaoh was crowned. So it varied in ancient Egypt. So the Pharaoh was literally the ruler of the kingdom.
@@andrewharper1609 so happy for our standardized measures and weighs. proper systems are really necessary for the functioning of a large precise society
@@citricdemon I think the first known use of the standardized measure goes back to Hammurabi in Babylon. Whenever he is depicted it's with a ruler. Coincidentally his is the first known code of laws.
What's mildly interesting from the British perspective was that Richard the third was greatly concerned with fair weights and measures. He even went so far as to document how wet wool should be when weighed. He had many faults but denying people fair recompense doesn't seem to have been one of them.
"Grass high to a kneehopper" - Lindybeige
+Andrew Penman I had to go back to find that one--- yep. my ears are still pretty good.
cost. cost
ancient composite bows were fecking expensive
Warbander
That's why Ancient Egyptians made and used both longbows and composite bows.
@Abu Troll al cockroachistan acouracy by the volume of fire mate
What about the javelin/spear? It can both be thrown and used in melee!
@@JBGARINGAN yeah, it really can't. Javelins are skirmishing weapons. They’re for throwing at considerably shorter range than shooting a bow, and they would make an improvised melee weapon at best. They’re also quite big and awkward to carry considering you only get one shot.
OK, I know this post and comments are pretty much ancient history at this point, but I want to throw in my experience with slings from about, oh, maybe 45 years ago when I was young and exuberant. My cousin and I, for reasons long forgotten, decided we wanted to learn how to use a sling. We ended up with a sling about 30 inches long or so (when doubled) and did a lot of practice with it. We go to where we could consistently hit the flat of a 2x6 leaned against the fence from about 40 or 50 feet (could have been closer to 75, but 50 seems fair). We were using roundish rocks about 1.5 inches in diameter. We could easily drive those rocks entirely through the 2x6, leaving a huge hole in the backside. We also discovered that we could sling those stones down the length of the property, roughly a quarter-mile into a bunch of large fir trees and occasionally (purely by chance, I assure you) knock fairly good sized branches down. Moreover, we learned through the assistance of the county sheriff's department that those stone were continuing another 50 yards or so and striking a house. There was considerable drop down the hill to that house, perhaps close to 100 feet lower than where we were, and we were basically just blazing stones into the sky to see how far we could watch them go. (and yes, we did pay to replace some windows)
So no question about power, surprising accuracy, and really scary range.
Slings are quite common in the Andes. Beautiful braided alpaca wool too. I saw a viddy of a protest over land rights with the army dodging sling bullets. (which I read, were often unfired clay- it's the imparted kinetic energy which kills, not penetration- ask Pizarro's little brother who was killed at Saqsahuaman despite his helmet...) I tried my first sling out at Saqsahuaman (when there weren't any tour groups about) and found the bastions are an easy sling throw apart: no coincidence there, I believe. I achieved accuracy equivalent to what you mentioned in a very short time, so I think the Balearic slingers could have been pretty hot if they had been at it since they were toddlers.
it's friggin great how nerdy in depth Lindy gets with the information and the practical application of the tactical concepts. give this man a TV show.
The Angry Korean exactly put.
God forbid! Producers would screw any tv show up. He’s more free and creative on RUclips.
I've seen videos of people using slings with great acuracy. Yes, the targets are bigger, but there are those who can hit the center consistantly. The target for a sling doesn't have the rings of an archer's target because the stone doesn't stick in the target like an arrow does. So you would not be able compare the accuracy of the different throws like you would in archery or darts.
Good point. I never thought of that.
@@michaelfranciotti3900 Not really though, one could easily use a recently painted stone, or even chalk like Lindy!, to measure slingshot throws like you would arrows..
Let's see, I am an ancient military bean counter and I have to choose which long range weapon to outfit the men with, let us look. The launcher itself, how much do they cost, a bow that you would use in battle, probably about a quarter to half its weight in silver (possibly more) whereas a sling, a few coppers. No contest there. How about the ammo? The arrows basic ammo (straight wooden sticks with fletching) take about ten minutes to make apiece, and war arrows cost a pretty penny because a blacksmith has to make the arrowhead, and a fletcher to make the arrows. How about slings? Basic ammo is free, it is stones on the road, and take three seconds apiece to gather, and the specialized bullets are just lead poured into a sand mold, so take minutes to make for pennies on the dollar. Finally, does it take a specialized soldier to use them. Bows, absolutely, archers are there when the battle is long range and that is it. Slings, you can use them with SHIELDS! Once the enemy gets too close, these shield bearing slingers could just put the slings in their belts and draw spears, sword, or axes, and fight close in. Advantage slings. So you buy archers when the budget has some padding in it, for their greater accuracy, and all that other jazz, and slings for other times. Not a hard decision to make from a dollars and cents point of view.
Yet archers became more prevalent suggesting that it was worth spending the extra coin on them. People wouldn’t have done that if they were not getting better results with archers over slingshot.
Jeremiah9052
Right on everything but archers needing any kind of significant training
I think the sling took to much time to ge accurate with whereas the bow was quite easy to learn
@@sotohigake9854, bow and arrow requires a fair amount of training, all things considered. It was literally the main point of contention between bows and crossbows.
The primary advantage I see to slinging is the light weight, low cost and improvised ammo. Yes, you can craft arrows in the field, but you still have to craft them.
Slings would have been ideal for the peasant classes, as they could use them in their daily lives and then be formed into a makeshift slinging squad during warfare.
*****
No no no, I just meant, you could craft them outside at a makeshift camp or something. But it would be labor-intensive work and require some tools. If you have a sling and need ammo before or after a fight, let's say when you're moving to the next battle or running away from one you lost, you just head near the river and pick up some stones.
And in day-to-day life, you could hunt, herd sheep, defend your property from animals, and if you needed more ammo for your sling, there are usually some rocks on the ground. So it was very low-cost and low-effort to keep your sling stocked with ammo.
Slings are also pretty decent against armored enemies as well
but you forget that the peasant classes have their own bows and have been arching since small.
@@citricdemon Warbows differ from the usual bow that a hunter would use. When bow technology improved and become more available you start to find more in the battlefield but slings still was used.
It seems to me that slings would be a great weapon of default for an ancient society - cheap enough for everyone to own one, portable enough for everyone to carry one, and relatively easy to learn. If I were the leader of an ancient clan I might expect everyone to practice and carry the sling.
well boys in older times(not so old in some nations)practiced the art of the sling in theyr daily lifes protecting the livestock from wolves
I think accuracy is easier to learn with a bow, you van look where the arrow goes, while slinging must come from your guts.
3:07 I've watched this video probably a dozen times over the years, and I just now caught "Grass height to a knee-hopper" thats amazing 🤣
"Grass height to a knee-hopper." I love it.
Dear lindybeige, i am italian, And i have been follouing your sermons for a Long time, honestly more than The words i interpret your gestures, it seems that from time a urricane with a Nice sling shot to slash the darkness and open a window of Light and truth on this blessed slingshot from us and our forefathers held in high regard both in peace and in war, while you hold us in suspense waithing for this event. Although we say our lingshot is The Latin lingshot it is The best and The most used in The mediterranean basin by remote time, italy has been The cot of thecivilization of the culture of the sling and The land of the largest slinger. However do not worry in waithing for any appropriate gesture we Will offer you some modest launch of sling in honor of the lindybeige People without offense, just for knowledge , we were and we are still the Best slinger existing. With admiration and respect i greet you from italy sardinye . Tziu panai.
Thank you Sir LB ive been enriched by your videos and truly enjoyed your work.
I tried these things a while ago. I learned how to sling one inch stones with speed and accuracy that surprised me. Simple and gets the job done.
3:05 "Grass high to a knee hopper" - Love it! LOL
Wait wait wait wait... You said "Grass-height to a Knee-hopper".....
So young in this one lol. Thanks for the decade plus you've been teaching me
For the modern slinger, this is definitely an advantage, yes. In ancient warfare, I doubt this factor was a major one. The cost of getting the man to get to where he needs to get to, feeding him etc. greatly out-weigh the extra cost of arrows.
Did they sling pommels to end them rightly??
ayyy, Skallagrim fan
I think there was giant pommel catapult as well
I literally clicked on this video just to comment that but I guess I was too slow
I grew up hunting squirrels and rabbits with a sling. At 40m a target that size is quite easy. Started slinging age 3.
Yes, this is one point I forgot to mention. It would be far from impossible, but bows would be better.
This was quite a small bullet/rock. You can shoot small-fist sized rocks from a long sling, and these would pack quite a punch.
That second stone you show is more like it. ;)
I have used both sling and bow in hunting. I prefer the sling for smaller game, it is very accurate (for me) out to about 60 meters. That took me about a year to get that good. The bow is accurate to a much greater range, you can also bring down larger game. (face it a pointy stick going into a creature with a hide in the ribs is going to do more damage than a rock).
But boy oh boy the rock is so much cooler
I'm from the Balearic Islands and I remember learning sling, crafting it, and we even went as far as a test, but never as far as consider it a national sport.
The one type of sling you haven't mentioned in these sling videos (that I've noticed anyway) is the *sling staff* or *staff sling*. Stick your sling on the end of a 3 to 6-foot staff that you swing overhand, and you essentially have the human precursor to the trebuchet. And like a trebuchet, you can sling a bigger, heavier rock (or a pottery grenade full of flaming oil) a lot farther and a lot harder than just by using the sling alone.
3:06 "grass-height to a knee-hopper" is hilarious whether by accident or intent! :)
I didn't even notice, had to go back to listen again! - I was just struck by the fact that he said it at all, I thought it was a saying from the U.S. midwest, my folks and people like them were the only ones I ever heard say it (transplanted Iowans living in California).
@@regular-joe I had to rewind to confirm it myself; that's interesting and ironic as I first came across it in Australia in a New Zealand comic called "Footrot Flats" (of which there's a great movie :), so I'm assuming it's of English origin. .
I started slinging about 5 months ago (I'm 15) I put a small rock about 1 inch in an Oak Tree.
Ive been hunting since I was "Grass high to a knee hopper"...and one thing is for certain: Animals, which must be wary of predators if they wish to remain alive, are keenly aware of movement. Even the shortest windup in preparation of casting a stone, via sling, is far more noticeable than the movement of drawing a bow before you loose an arrow at your quarry. An animal on the run is far more difficult to hit than one standing still...another huge advantage for hunting with the bow and arrow!
On the accuracy of slings, I more or less agree (I'm an engineering student), the shepherds sling is a length or rope, cord, leather etc. As you wind up a shot, the cord twists. When slinging, one of the standard methods is, a single rotation to seat the stone/dart, then a single faster rotation followed by the release. More accuracy can be achieved by skipping the seating rotation, greater distance and power, but subsequently lower accuracy can be achieved by more then one wind up rotations to build up speed. Either way the cord is going to twist as you release. However, practice with *your* sling can combat that. You can calibrate it so to speak, building intuition on how the twists in the cord are going to alter your shot. What I'm saying is basically pin point accuracy with a sling is in my opinion possible, but a *lot* harder then with a bow and specific to your weapon: use someone else's and you'll lose it.
Another Great video. thanks for pointing out weather implications and their effect on bows and slings, really appreciated. Keep up the awesome video's dude. :-)
King David was said to employ pairs of right & left handed slingers who could cast a stone within a handwidth of the target. There is some evidence these stingers assaulted infantry formation at mid distance. I imagine the worked as did the Roman Plumbata.
In forgetting to discuss shields, looks like you have subjected us to the slings and errors of outrageous fortune.
I like this attention to slings. Most weapon experts just love their favorite queen of battle, whether that is a sword or axe or mace and forget that it is only a part of a cultural technology of war. We still have skirmishers. Their the air forces that go out and mess it up before the ground forces have even see each other. The difference is that they are now the highest tech in the battle, not the lowest.
Grass height to a knee hopper. Heh.
@johndharvey You really wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either. A sling stone could do more damage without penetrating, but an arrow might have more "bite" for penetrating. I'd have thought that an arrow from a war bow would probably do more damage at close range, but a sling might win out at longer range.
The real difference here is accuracy, vs precision. Precision is earned through practice, accuracy is inherent to the design and crafting. It is harder to make an accurate bow vs an accurate sling, both because the sling is simpler and because the preferred ammunition is lead egg-shaped bullets. Lead just makes for a more accurate projectile than wood.
On the notion of Sling bullets being less effective in scattering your enemies: There were 'whistling glandes'... So a close miss by smth. that you can hear but not see and know to be fairly dangerous, might intimidate you more, then the barrage of arrows, which can see and therefore know when its time to raise your shield before its time to duck and cover.
BAH MEHEHEH
-Loyd 2010
Chalk Rock, Melbourne Rock, and Totternhoe Stone, are the hard rock bands within the Upper Chalk, that are used to make the white chequer pattern in English churches (In towns where these layers are found, the best houses are built in rows that follow the edge contour where they meet the scarp slope.). The rest of The Chalk series ranges from grey mud to powdery massive blocks like those in Beachey Head. If you sling up a piece of building grade chalk stone, it won't go 'poof' when you hit a tree. If you have the other kind around you, then you also have flint. So the need to throw the soft stuff is going to be rare.
when i was younger (11 of so) i could regularly (7 times out of 10 or so) hit beer cans at about 20 meters of so with the sling i made from bootlaces and leather so i know for a fact that accuracy is possible with a sling but your right past about 30 yards it gets alot harder to hit small targets there was a stump in the feild in front of my house maybe 70 or 80 yards away and i could hit it maybe 1 out of three times its like throwing rocks by hand the farther the target the harder to hit
@ShowYourWorking It is worth knowing how to do it, not least because the sling is so cheap, and so readily improvised. A situation might come up when troops could slings stones at their foes, perhaps during a siege. They men would not always have to be expert to be effective.
I put a lot of time and effort into being remarkably accurate with a snub nosed (short barreled) .38, but its still easier to be just as accurate with my 1911.
I've come up with a fun pastime! Watch every Lindybeige episode chronologically: You can follow the development of the photo-wall throughout both told and ongoing history!
Yes, I tried a strip of cloth once. It worked, but wasn't great.
Grass height to a kneehopper!😂
For some reason that really tickled me.
"Algarve a portrait and a guide (1963)" one of my favorite reads, one of the chapters gives a contemporary account of a herdsman using a sling. Not saying your wrong at all with the accuracy side of things but interesting comparison, just found your stuff, interesting. Keep up the good work.
@TheWhoaDude Not a video that I have seen, but I found some advice in written form on the web by a bit of Googling.
Enjoyed the vid. Keep up the good work!
As someone proficient in the Byzantine style, to toot my own horn, I would completely agree re: slings less accurate than bows. It's very tough to get consistently accurate with a sling, especially at significant range.
People dont consider that stones vary more that other types of missiles, and have generally poor aerodynamics. That has got to make it even harder to be consistent that with a bow.
***** I'm sure that's entirely true, but I don't think it's too big a factor in the issue. It's more to do with the motion of casting the sling, it's very...exuberant. Archery is very linear - you shoot the arrow straight forward, which allows you to be a damn sight more accurate than when you're swinging a sling around. I tell you what, slings are shockingly powerful weapons though.
***** I'm actually doing mercenary work for Carthage. We'll have the Romans brought to heel in no time, though, so I'll probably go back to office work after that.
*****
Still looks like munition consistency was still an issue, but now I'm far more interested in the fact that people wrote on the bullets. "Catch!" was my favourite.
***** the Romans and the Greeks both cast munitions for the sling in the form of lead bullets or glans. They were quite consistent so I imagine that would help while the supplies lasted.
I nearly missed the point as my brain danced with "grass high to a kneehopper," but yeah, somebody who practiced from childhood with a bow and arrows could also get awesome accurate.
So, would David have used a short sling when going up against Goliath? He needed to be accurate, but he also needed power.
if goliath was 6' 9'' i'd say a short sling would be fine. if he was 9' 2'' maybe a long sling. so it might come down to your version of the bible. there is some dispute about which translation is correct of the above 2.
David Ducker A 9' 2" man could exist, but he'd hardly be able to move. Then again, if you're that intimidating, you don't need to hardly move... unless some uppity shepherd boy with a sling comes along.
Sailor Barsoom there are about 10 recorded people over 8 feet tall. some of them indeed could not stand due to how human skeletons distribute weight.
Actually, Cracked.com gives a very interesting explanation for the Goliath story:
Goliath's gigantism is caused by a pituitary disorder called acromegaly. One of the side effects of such disorders is blurred vision, hence why Goliath had to be led out onto the field by an attendant.
Slings are already fairly powerful weapons, but David specifically chose stones that were as dense and aerodynamic as possible--from the Valley of Elah, a place known by modern geologists for sometimes producing stones roughly twice as dense as normal.
David brought a handgun to a sword fight.
Source: www.cracked.com/article_22708_5-badass-stories-in-bible-explained-by-science.html and my own (admittedly limited) knowledge of the Bible
David would have also used a Sheppard's Sling. A Sheppard's Sling is considerably more powerful than a small sling because it's on the end of a wooden pole.
Grass high to a knee hopper! I learnt sumthin new! Hooray for Lindybeige!
Thinking mechanically. I can't see how essentially an assisted throw could be more powerful than the reduculous levels of energy you get from a bow. Though you are correct the fact that stones are denser would make them more damaging.
All the reading I've done on ancient warfare would tend to suggest that a mixture of missiles is desirable. On foot; javelins (heavy and light), bows and slings. On horseback javelins, and bows. Darts like Martiobarbulii and Plumbata might also feature in there somewhere.
1d4 damage my ass :P
I always thought the same about knives and daggers. I mean, ever seen the aftermath of a knife fight?
Yeah, I like GURPS myself.
Joshua Macy Yes but that's a 0 level human.. It still doesn't make sense in a game where you gain HP every level and end up with ridiculous amounts of it. In fact any game that involves HP or at least people having vastly different HP from one another doesn't make sense at all.
Chris Bradshaw GURPS? You are my friend now.
:D
I think it should be noted that you do not have to be all the accurate when you are shooting/slinging at a large formation, just hit somewhere in it.
A single beer can at 20m is very good indeed.
Easier to be stealthy with a bow, and greater accuracy. Also, a bow causes a wound that bleeds, so making the dying deer easier to track.
Slings will never be more accurate because it requires more movement. If you play anything that requires precision (darts, snooker, etc.), you would know that the lesser the movement, the more accurate you are.
+elmohead Baseballs are pretty accurate and the pros use the biggest possible motion to throw them.
kin2naruto I should clarify myself: by lesser I meant less joints are moving. I don't play baseball, but in golf, you're expected to lock your wrists, your elbows and stand still, instead of doing a run-up like Adam Sandler.
+kin2naruto I would guess baseballs are less accurate than arrows though, somewhere between them and a sling. Slings are essentially flexible lever arms used to add on to your arms natural throwing motion, resulting in a more powerful, though less accurate, throw.
sound general principle but you are misusing it by saying "never". in order for your statement to be absolute, there would have to be a perfect 1:1 correlation between complexity of movement and precision, which is obviously not possible to even possibly be the case.
+kingdomOfDimensions expert slingers can attain an accuracy that is otherwise impossible with throwing.
thanks for posting. this is gonna really help in my RPG :)
@Wirrn That would be a _very_ strong side wind.
Chalk rock has a Mohs' hardness of 3 (out of 10) and, more importantly, a very fine-grained matrix so it makes complete sense that it would vaporize instead of shatter like Calcite (also a 3) would.
Diodorus Siculus' chronicle of the Battle of Eknomos in 311BC:
"But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered and that the Greeks in constantly increasing number were making their way into the camp, he brought up his slingers, who came from the Balearic Islands and numbered at least a thousand. By hurling a shower of great stones, they wounded many and even killed not a few of those who were attacking, and they shattered the defensive armour of most of them."
also, if it takes you a lifetime to use a sling good enough to be able to join the army and only a fraction of the time to qualify you for a bow, doesn't that say something about the slings accuracy being lower? Lower accuracy, more training required
didn't bow also take a lifetime to learn how to use properly/effectively? not to mention require you to have peak upper body strength, i assume it would be more cost effective to learn spear or axe, since they are relatively simple to handle and a decent spear-man took about 6 weeks to train
There's nothing about pulling a string that's attached to a spring back with an arrow nocked to it that's mentally challenging to average human beings. Bows are quite a bit more dependent on strength than many other ranged weapons, especially if you aim them with the string pulled all the way back (at full draw).
I've only used 40 and 50 pound bows, and gotten out of the shape required to easily use them a few times. Doing as many pushups in a row as the bow weighed solved that problem. From this, I imagine that strength might have been somewhat more quickly attainable than most believe, but classical and medieval archers didn't eat as well as we do today and I don't fully understand how that may have penalized the strength they may have gained from exercise.
As for the skill of aiming a bow it'd mostly be memorizing how much arrows drop due to gravity at certain distances and getting a consistent release without jerking your bow as the arrow leaves it.
Took me a couple of days to use a sling with some accuracy, to use a longbow of 200 pound draw takes many, many years, so try it some time I guarantee it will take you a VERY long time to even learn how to draw 200 pounds with one arm let alone to be accurate, archery training in the middle ages started at about the age of five and takes no strength to sling a stone
@@mikedale8773 it took me a few months to sling "accuratly" and today i might have hitted something on the street lmao
I wouldn’t have thought slinging took much longer to learn than a bow and arrow.
Grass-high to a kneehopper? That's pretty high.
Great vids by the way. I really enjoy them.
The huge advantage in my mind is ammo......arrows take a special skill to make and the bow also, any army would want the ability to hit the enemy at any time from a distance
Did you mention manuveurability ? It's hard to run and shoot and shooting a bow take sa moment, stand there take aim draw and release whereas a sling is just "load and throw".
Notably, arrows would often be stabbed int he ground before shooting. I don't know if the ancients did it for convenience or if they knew but this often led to someone who was wounded but not killed dying by infection a few days later due to dirt getting into their wound on the arrowhead.
(A bit late with the answer I know)
I think the infection thing was just a coincidence. I don't know that much about ancient battles, but I don't think there was much nationalistic hatred involved. War's just a war, another form of bussiness and making people that you want to subjugate (they could even later become your soldiers, who knows) dying by infections is really pointless as (as you pointer out) it would have no effect on the battle itself.
But that's just my thought. If someone knows the truth, feel free to correct me.
I bet it was more convenient sometimes to stab your arrows into the ground and pick them up that way, as needed.
Little late, but I don't believe anyone actually did this with their arrows, for a whole bunch of reasons. First, they carried them to the battle in something already, why not just keep carrying them in that thing until actually ready to be deployed, because in the second place arrows aren't that sturdy and sticking them into the ground in a rush might cause you to break the shaft, or break whatever holds the point on, and then you have arrows stuck in the ground, what happens if you have to move? Then you pull them out of the dirt and there's a bit of muck stuck on one side of the tip and when you shoot it throws off your aim, and ... all this sounds exactly like the thing the first sergeant of archers would be screaming at you about on day one of archery boot camp. "Never stick your arrows in the dirt, you stupid farm boys! What, do you think this is, some kind of movie?!" No, just no.
@@forge20 you do know Thats a quiver has a limited capasity right? Archers could fire many arrows during a battle, and ten arrows may not due the trick.
Ancient armies had logistics as well.
If you consider the sling as a volley weapon, accuracy is far less crucial. In fact, I wonder how accurate a heavy yew war bow was after the first five shots? A very heavy bow is not held at full draw to aim--it is a constant movement from draw to release.
A hunting bow generally has a draw weight of 50 lbs--and less in indigenous cultures--and is intended to be very accurate at close range and put a deer down pretty promptly with a fatal hit.
A war bow is designed to hit a human, some of the time, somewhere on his body at a much greater range. A disabling wound is sufficient. And I'm pretty sure that a collapsing release and premature release was pretty common after the first few shots with a heavy war bow. The bow has got to be a much better ambush weapon, though. And a damn sight better in dense woods! In fact some slinging styles would be greatly hampered in knee high brush.
Arrows do have a tendency to self correct in a cross wind because the feather end of the arrow catches more wind than the arrow head and so the the arrow still keeps pointing at it's target.
4:19
What you said there really sounds like "nie" (Polish "no"). :D
And?
Re seeing arrows - I've heard you can actually hear them, too, that they make a weird sound if they're coming right at you. So if you're fighting in a shield wall, and you hear something weird coming towards you, don't look up and end up like Harold Hadrada. Or, if you do look up, raise your shield too!
Hmmm.... according to my archery club mentor, arrows are less affected by sideways wind than you'd think.... The sideways wind will push the rear of the arrow more than the front as the fletchings catch the wind more. So the arrow is now pointing more upwind... which means it's compensating somewhat for the sideways wind... Can't cancel it out, but less than you'd think. I haven't shot enough outdoors with a sideways wind yet in the last year to give evidence, but the theory seems sound...
Pretty sure this is already settled. Pretty sure there are reliable ancient military accounts of tribal slingers (who sling from childhood well into adulthood) that could hit a torso sized targets reliably, at roughly over 100 yards.
@MrSaber152 Another video, another day.
So where does North America end and Mesoamerica begin?
Yes, rate of fire is a difficult thing to quantify. I think the fastest archers were probably faster than the fastest slingers, but how significant this was in battles I could not say.
It’s interesting that the current trend for archer doctrine (for longbows at least), is as a direct fire weapon, and not darkening the skies of Crécy.
Cool site! 👍🏻
Is shooting a war bow not very different to the modern archery practiced today? Due to the greater poundage of draw weight of war bows does the archer not tend to fire more reflexively rather than the careful aim of modern archery where the arrow is held to the ear and aimed more carefully. So the sling might actually be easier to aim under these actual battlefield conditions and therefore potentially be more accurate?
In a desperate situation, do you think a sling could be used as a garrote? Assuming you've lost all other weapons available and you need to defend yourself or help a friend *immediately* and don't have time to retrieve a weapon from the ground. It is basically just a short rope.
My thoughts on accuracy.
On the battlefields of yesteryear, the ranged weapons were not so much sniper rifles as artillery.
Yes, you would have archers or singers who would aim specifically at a single man and take him out at a ridiculous range, but I don't expect that this was the norm.
When the English longbowmen practised their archery, the targets weren't up on stands, but drawn on the ground, or so I hear.
So the way I see both bows and slings being used - for the most part - was that a formation of bow/sling men would aim, not at different individuals as you would with a rifle, but at an area. Anything in that area would be obliterated by thousands or arrows or rocks.
So, rather than thinking of accuracy in terms of the battle broken up into a number of 1vs1 duels, I suggest looking at it in this way.
This formation attacks that area and inflicts this many losses on that formation.
Yes, you would want an archer or sling man to take out sentries in order to make your sneak attacks, etc, but I don't think the way we understand aiming today (due to guns) is the same as the way the ancients understood it.
Consider: range (parabolic trajectory over distances), charging infantry and cavalry and then of course that both projectiles were substantially slower than bullets fired from rifles. If someone aims at you and pulls the trigger, from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle, you have no time to see it and react. Long distance warfare with bows and slings was different, even if you didn't see the sky darken with sling stones, if you saw a formation of slingers all sending off a whole lot of stones or bullets, you could get your shield up.
Just my thoughts on the matter, that they aimed in formation, not at individuals but at an area, the approach wasn't "I'm aiming at that man, oh bugger, I missed!" but rather "we are aiming over there, we hit 25 people!"
i made and have practised with both and the staff sling i found was okay, it required a lot less room for me, but i found it a pain in the butt to use effectively. i did find using the sling was interesting and i found the simple overhanded technique to the be the most effective
It also didn't too long to be reasonably accurate either
i made them to experiment with the usefulness of slings versus arrows as i was and am an avid roleplayer and roleplaying game writer
Thanks ...Cheers Sir
What about obsidian stones in a sling? you could knap it into a reasonable sphere relatively quickly, it's pretty hard and when it shatters you could get collateral damage to nearby enemies eyes.
You are quite right. I panicked. I was thinking of the Incas.
He looks very attractive in this outfit.
Terminology varies by country, but what most people in the US learn is that "North America" is everywhere north of the Isthmus of Panama, with everything South else being "South America." "Latin America" is all the parts of the Americas EXCEPT the US and Canada, and "Mesoamerica" or "Central America" is the area of overlap between Latin America and North America. The Aztecs were (mostly) in modern-day Mexico, so they are North, Latin, AND Central American.
In continuation; Slingers fighting in non-ideal circumstances such as when supply lines were stretched or cut off, could maintain a better battlefield standard than archers. Make-shift sling ammunition from scavenged rocks or hastily moulded lead or other soft metals function almost on part with actual leaden shot. Where as hastily gathering straight-ish branches or suitable fire-wood for impromptu arrow-making makes for less than useful ammunition. Lastly, quantity, how much can you carry?
I think both were of equal effectiveness in pitched battle in ideal circumstances. But I do believe the sling outclasses the bow in terms of skirmishing and fighting in non-ideal circumstances. I can see people with sling loaded, and whirling it about their heads to build momentum, whilst advancing or otherwise moving lithely. With a bow, it's much more difficult to remain equally mobile, and be able to stop to take a shot before getting back on the move, loading, and searching for targets.
Slings are more accurate than bows, can be fired much faster and have a range of 200-400 meters. Mallorca has a competition every year for Bellareic slinging. And yes, you do need to be slinging from youth to master it. The target is a metal disc 12 inches, not 1 meter as stated.
18mm is indoor archery outdoor fita round 90, 70, 50 and 30 metres at 80cm and 122cm targets and agree i learned people to shoot a bow in a day by end of day they will be hitting the bull at 50m no problem
Gotta get me a sling :)
I heard about slinging granades in modern guirella :)
Very very interesting!
When were the slings used in battles?
KyrosV128
Hannibal used them a lot,for example in an ambush he almost destroyed the half of a roman army,because they thought they were only fighting slingers,that were on a hill. They walked in the Testudo Formation at them(good against projectiles but slow and inefficient in Battle,also hindered their sight).
They walked straight at them and didn't notice the Cartaghinian, Celtic and Iberian Soldiers positioned by the sides of the hill. These attacked the Romans and encircled them.
They were also often used by Hannibal,to stop Skirmishers and to provoke the enemy to attack(Battle of the Trebia)
Wow. They must have been very confident that the guards would not reply with rifles.