"Still trying to outsmart me aren't you a mule Skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is, you don't want me to go down there. Well, are you reassured now, Major? Men of the 7th! The hour of victory is at hand! Onward to Little Bighorn, and glory!"
Excellent video. I've had the opportunity to visit this battlefield on three occasions. Once on June 26th 1976, a day after the 100th anniversary of the battle. My Dad and I have always been very interested in what might have, and did, happen on that day. Thanks to Ranger Donahue for the clear and articulate presentation.
I recently downloaded the Lt Edward Maguire map and his July 1876 engineer report of the LBH battle. He clearly maps and states that the Custer wing travelled over Weir Pt direct to Ford B. Two days after the battle, from the location of bodies, he reports that the Custer wing was repulsed at Ford B and retreated to Calhoun hill/ Finley ridge in two columns with a company sized stand made at Calhoun Hill. Two parallel retreats were made. The left battalion along Calhoun coulee to Deep Ravine - there another company sized stand was made (likely E). The retreat objective for both left and right battalions was Last Stand hill which was 'thickly carpeted with bodies'. The right btn, under Keogh (L, I cos) did not make it to last stand hill. C co MAY have been split into two halves, balancing the L/R btns. According to Maguire the column fought all the way from Ford B (medicine tail coulee). No Richard Fox scenario from the Terry column engineer looking at the field 2 days after the battle with an expert eye. I believe Lt Edward Maguire.
We listened to Michael Donahue at Little Bighorn in May 2019 and he gave a wonderful description of the battle. I think he said he teaches at a Texas college also.
“General..YOU go down there. You go down there” what an awesome video. I flew over some years ago for the GBurg, Harper’s Ferry & Antietam trail but this battle has a very personal connection to my family. I’d love to visit it one day. Keep up the great work guys and thanks for sharing.
No trees (cedar) because of the fire… I assume that’s where the sniper shot from (trees) during the battle. Always learning something new! The tactical talks are perfect! Thank you.
2. Lt Edward Maguire's report describes a running fight all thd way from Ford B to last stand hill. E co makes a stand at Deep Ravine likely using the steep gulch to hide their horses and use the ravine slopes as a breastwork for a skirmish line. 28 bodies were found in this ravine. They bought time for a consolidation on last stand hill. It always seemed NONSENSICAL to me that E Co would deploy off last stand hill to charge diwnhill 500 yards into a ravine full of warriors. Maguire says their was a line of bodies killed reyreating TO last stand hill FROM deep ravine. He was there two days after the battle. 3.
3. By the time the memorial stones were brought the bohes were scattered all over hell's half acre by predators and it was pure guesswork to place them. But Lt Maguire saw the truth of the matter 2 days after the battle. There was no Ford D recon. No attempt to capture non combatants. The Custer wing fought for it's survival from Ford B to last stand hill and it was all over quickly, abour 2 hours from the medecine tail retreat to game over.
It's possible Custer's brigade stayed down and then traversed Cedar Coulee after Custer rode to the top of Weir Point to recon the village. This would maintain the element of surprise by keeping the giant dust cloud behind the ridge as they flanked. Not even sure why I'm arguing this or why it even matters...
I saw the "Little Big Man" film at its Premiere in Denmark and it was a long film of I think 3 hours by then! I have later seen versions which have been cut to pieces, with a lot of the original film and stuff missing, making parts of the film absurd.
Ranger Donahue, seems very confident in his narrative. However I don't care for his stylings personally. I just think if You heard him twice or several times? Each Time his narrative is going to be entirely different. I might be Wrong in thinking this? But that's the impression, or feeling. I'm getting, just from the above video. Tell me if I'm wrong? Please.
little big man was more anti Vietnam War than historical fact. the wild bill Hickok narrative is a case in point. a map would have helped explain the route. I talked to the LBH chief historian who had just relocated to Fort Laramie at the time (1995) and as I recall he insisted that the route was down cedar coulee. since I don't see a map I am unsure where cedar coulee is with respect to the other terrain features. how does blunders ridge fit into the scheme of maneuver. thanks for the video, I am sure you get tired of listening to everyone's half baked ideas.
As I suggested last year when we were talking about your book, Where the Rivers Ran Red, we should name that unnamed coulee that Custer led the 7th to Medicine Tail Coulee, "Custer Coulee".
Why is it important? If you have to ask, you will never understand. All the eyewitnesses are dead, most of the source material has been sifted, and it is hard to get any new revelations without digging deeper with what we have. One thing this does help with is establishing a timeline, and that has been something I see few agree on. The idea that Custer was engaging while Reno's troopers were still on the firing line- or even still in the wood- shows what an overwhelming force of warriors they met. I know it has been a trend to downplay the force they met, probably because it seemed more like a poor Reno defense of his flight than an accurate estimate, but he did say he thought he was fighting the whole Sioux Nation. That indicates there were more than enough to corral the 7th, even if you attempt to extrapolate probable combatants based on teepee circles, lodgepole drag marks, and wikiup remains. It seems that the force pursuing Reno left to support the warriors attacking Custer, and I have read accounts that claimed they were surprised by his advance on the village and raced to save the non-combatants. If we follow Ranger Donahue, there were more than enough warriors to deter Custer, and they were more concerned with getting their personal battle preparations right than fearing being overwhelmed by a couple hundred troopers. Those nearest may have panicked, but for the most part, accounts indicate Custer annoyed them more by showing up early after a huge block party the night before. So why did those warriors leave Reno for the most part, and head to join the sufficient numbers opposing Custer? Why not charge the demoralized troopers on the hill before they could organize, or Benteen and the pack train reinforced them? It just wasn't their method of warfare. The few times they tried went poorly for them. Later accounts mention how they would sneak close enough to throw arrows or dirt clods, just to show they were brave and skilled enough to get that close. Poor Long Road demonstrated that it would be very difficult to convince warriors assured of victory to risk themselves charging a prepared position when they could starve them out, or control the water nearby, or snipe from nearby hills. Most deaths after Reno was corralled were because it seemed a shame to get all dressed up for nothing!
I wish you would have spoke on why it’s believed from Indian accounts & testimony, White Cow Bull that Custer & two companies reached the river where he claimed Custer was shot in the chest & fell from his horse.
None of the Indians even knew Custer was who they were fighting, so how could they have known they killed him? Not to mention he was NOT wearing a buckskin jacket, he had removed it as it was hot that day, he did NOT have his often incorrectly shown long hair as he had clipped it off before he left Ft. Lincoln. So again how could they have known they shot Custer? He was very much alive probably right up until the end of the battle.
@@gderdall1213 White Cow Bull who claimed he shot Custer, described the man he shot & horse he was riding, a fine looking big horse, a sorrel with white stockings, the reaction of the soldiers when the officer fell from his horse. White Cow Bull’s account was backed up by White Man Runs Him, Curley, White Shield etc.
@@rickbreze7469 yeah why no thompson account? He witnessed it too, custer and two deep battle line at river. Cuz no bodies? Come on. They were dragged away and mutilated or drifted down the river seeing they were next to the lakota camp. No bullets tho....and indians didnt take casings for reload? Of course they did! Everyone did one the prarie. A casing can be shot 60+ times with the same caliber.
@@rickbreze7469 white Cow Bull also described the rifle the 'soldier chief' was firing...He said 'the soldier chief was firing his heavy Rifle'...An odd thing to make note of during a firefight... Custer was carrying his Rolling Block Rifle a 50-70...and it is substantially longer than the 45-70s the troopers were carrying...and that also gives an indication of how close the warriors and soldiers were to each other
So might you be if your home containing your wife, children and extended family was attacked without warning ... Women and children were shot and killed when the soldiers initially opened fire on the village. The Sioux then swarmed out of the village in response ... All of this took place on land ceded to them in an earlier treaty...
@@tedclairmont8837 The Lakota were also a foreign invader. They invaded lands of the Crow and Shoshone, which is the reason that so many Crows, Shoshone and Arikara allied themselves with the army.
I honestly don't think it makes much difference where they went to get to the medicine tail coulee since we are talking about almost adjacent routes that imply a few minutes of difference. furthermore it is obvious that riding in a long blue line is much more visible if you are at the top of a ridge rather than at the bottom of a gorge and Custer certainly didn't want to be seen to take the camp by surprise from behind. Cedar coulee offered a much more sheltered path than Weir's ridge so it seems likely to me that they passed that way but in any case the difference in terms of travel time between the two routes is minimal since they are practically adjacent. lastly the Giovanni Martini testimony is clear ...... Custer used Cedar coulee to approach the indian village
"I honestly don't think it makes much difference where they went to get to the medicine tail coulee since we are talking about almost adjacent routes that imply a few minutes of difference" You don't think 5-6 minutes makes a difference in battle? A million things can happen in that time. The domino collapse of C Company, then L Company, then I Company all happened in under 5 minutes, as repeated indian charges, collapse of the skirmish lines of C & then L, disorganized retreats, loss of horses, then panic & the collapse of the Keogh Battalion is proof. "furthermore it is obvious that riding in a long blue line is much more visible if you are at the top of a ridge rather than at the bottom of a gorge" True. yet there were two other coulees to go down, closer to the river. He had two other choices & did not have to ride across the ridge & be seen. Middle coulee offered just as much of a sheltered & unseen path as Cedar. Which is obvious. " so it seems likely to me that they passed that way but in any case the difference in terms of travel time between the two routes is minimal since they are practically adjacent." They are not practically adjacent. There is close to a half mile between them at widest parts. The difference in terms of travel time is*NOT* minimal. 3,480 feet from weir pt down middle coulee. It is 5,180 feet from top of weir pt, down the ravine to the extreme right & into Cedar, then down the constantly northeasterly cedar coulee. The exit from Middle Coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee is 2800 feet *CLOSER* to medicine tail ford, than the exit from Cedar Coulee , into Medicine Tail Coulee (A full half mile) 4500 feet total is the distance discrepancy - roughly .85 miles. Cavalry - on a hard flat dirt packed surface: 240 yards per minute at a trot - 6 minutes 15 secs difference. 300 yards per minute at the gallop - 5 minutes difference. Cedar Coulee was not hard flat packed dirt surface...it was grassy, bushy, windy, narrow & uneven so you can knock 5% off the top speed right there. These particular cavalry horses were also exhausted...so you can subtract some speed there. how much is debatable compared to fresh horses. Let's say it only takes 5% off their normal "fresh" top speed. That is for both coulees: Trot - roughly 32 secs Gallop - roughly 30 secs 5 & a half minutes, to 6 minutes & 45 seconds is an eternity in a battle like that. It's 4840 yards (2.8 miles roughly) in a zig zag path for an indian from where Reno was pushed back at the river to get back to Medicine Tail Ford along the west side. Cavalry horses at the trot & gallop were not going their full capable speed. it was less because maintaining formation was the key. The indian ponies were fresh & carried far less weight than tired, played out cavalry horses. They could easily hit & maintain 300 yards per minute at a gallop & sustain it. Which means the ones who pursued Reno to the river were able to get back to MTF (from the west side) in 16 minutes. The ones that simply drove Reno back but did not pursue him to the ford, or those who arrived there late, were only 1.5 - 1.8 miles away from MTC. At a full gallop they could make it back to MTF easily in 5 to 7 minutes. We are talking about a roughly 5.5 - 7 minute delay by taking Cedar. It absolutely made a difference if he took Cedar, yet could have taken Middle Coulee. He might have been able to make the assault directly across MTF virtually unopposed, as well as being able to place a company up on the high ground to the south to completely control a field of fire across the whole village center, and north across MTC. also would have put him within easy sight & communication with Benteen, Reno, Weir & the packs. He may not have been able to capture the retreating women & children who were already fleeing, yet he could have completely destroyed the entire village, the tipis, the supplies, etc. If Custer did in fact take Cedar, it was a very bad mistake, that cost him possibly a victory & definitely his life.
@@andreascala2663 There is a difference between opinion & error. Regardless of your opinion it remains a fact, that a 6-7 minute difference in a battle, whether you like it or not, can be colossal. Your opinion is in error, if you do not think that 6-7 minutes mattered in this battle. If you had said: - Custer should not have split his command so many times.....that is a fair opinion. - Custer should have brought the gatling guns or accepted another 4 companies of 2nd cavalry as support...that is a fair opinion. -The 7th cavalry should've been armed with repeating 1873 model winchesters...that is a fair opinion. But you say that a 6-7 minute time difference in a battle, does not matter. That is quite simply an error based off ignorance & arrogance...not an informed opinion where two reasonable people can agree to disagree over some small discrepancy or tactic or strategy. Had the distance & time difference been say 50 yards & only 5-10 seconds sure, I'd say you were correct & the distance/time difference did not matter. But your time/distance estimations are WAY off. There is a very significant difference in distance & time. Go look at google maps yourself & use their distance measurement tool You are simply in error. the distance & the time difference, is significant in a time sensitive attack, with little knowledge of how your comrades are faring & comms only by messenger. Custer took Cedar Coulee...& he &all his troops died. We will never know what would have happened had he taken Middle Coulee, or Western coulee (even faster than middle coulee) Had Custer taken middle coulee, it is an incontrovertible fact, that at the same speed, he'd have gotten to the same spot 6-7 minutes sooner than Cedar Coulee route. We will never know what would have happened...but it most CERTAINLY would have affected the battle timeline & events from that point on...enough to win it, or to survive or to still die, we do not know....but the timeline & therefore the actions would thusly be different & thusly would change in some way. Your claim/opinion that it was a minimal difference in distance & time, is factually incorrect. Your now deliberately ignorant & arrogant rejection of the possible military importance of a 7 minute earlier arrival for the strike at Medicine Tail Ford, in order to cover for your erroneous, uninformed, unmeasured & unresearched calculations of the time & distance differences of the coulees...is preposterous.
@@USCFlash the first time I replied that we have different opinions. now I reply that you are arrogant and presumptuous and I invite you not to write to me again or I will report you
Sorry Ranger Man. Custer was seen by some of Renos men up on the bluffs waving his hat as Renos men engaged the Sioux end of the village. Some of the crow scouts said Custer and some men stopped their march & watched Rnos men fighting in the valley for 20 or so minuetes. Not sure That Custer would stop for that long while fighting was comenced as he was concerned about the indians getting away. The indians did break off their attack on Renos men after they fled over the river & up the bluffs. There were only a few warriors that stayed behind to loot and dismember the troopers that fell on the route. You are mistanken in your thinking that Reno enged the southerne end of the village @ the same time Custers men engaged the Cheyane end of the village. I do agree that he wouldn't have gone down cedar coulee. I could go on but I have other fish to fry.
Bluffs, coulees, ravines, hills….if you could point out some sense of direction and location that would help immensely. Just literally point or something.
Middle Coulee makes sense. Custer was not out scouting for a good picnic sight. Time for engagement of the Indians was pressing. Middle C. provided much quicker access to the River. Now that said, not worth arguing about. Did not change the outcome. But we will always ruminate for answers.
4. Final comment. Custer watched Reno deploy his skirmish line. He got to Ford B ASAP, 2 miles away from Reno due to the bluffs preventing closer support. Custer did his best to support Reno. If Reno had held on anither 30 minutes then the course of the battle could have been a long odds victory for the 7th, OR a total massacre in the valley bottom, defested in detail. Either way it wouid have made an even greater Hollywood movie. Reno and Benteen let their commander down, ending up ignobly besieged on their little bluff top hollow, only to be rescued by 200 infantrymen with their long Tom Springfield rifles.
So,as you stated that Reno was engaged when Custer attacked/was attacked,then the warriors didn’t leave Reno to attack Custer. What force wiped out Custer? The remaining “B” team warriors left to protect woman and children while the “A” team attacked Reno? They had to get a timeline which to sell to the government that makes sense or Custer would be looked on as the fool that he was. He couldn’t of been wiped out by the “B” team so by saying he got slowed down in the Cedar Cooley would give the warriors the time needed to break off from Reno and come and whip his ass…😳
Only 1 road thru the battlefield. On top of the ridge. Provides great access and views on/of the battlefield. Very limited in the “destruction” it caused. Most, if not all markers were off the road. I know if any had to be moved due to road construction. And the road basically followed horse/wagon trail established in the 1800’s after the battle.
Love it when evidence establishes a true narrative of timelines & actions. Well done.
"Still trying to outsmart me aren't you a mule Skinner.
You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is, you don't want me to go down there.
Well, are you reassured now, Major?
Men of the 7th! The hour of victory is at hand! Onward to Little Bighorn, and glory!"
"you go down there...when they get thru with you you'll be nothin more than a greasy spot..."
This ain't the Washita river General
There ain't no women and children down there. There is Cheyenne and Lakota braves.
Excellent and detailed talk.
Excellent video. I've had the opportunity to visit this battlefield on three occasions. Once on June 26th 1976, a day after the 100th anniversary of the battle. My Dad and I have always been very interested in what might have, and did, happen on that day. Thanks to Ranger Donahue for the clear and articulate presentation.
I recently downloaded the Lt Edward Maguire map and his July 1876 engineer report of the LBH battle. He clearly maps and states that the Custer wing travelled over Weir Pt direct to Ford B. Two days after the battle, from the location of bodies, he reports that the Custer wing was repulsed at Ford B and retreated to Calhoun hill/ Finley ridge in two columns with a company sized stand made at Calhoun Hill. Two parallel retreats were made. The left battalion along Calhoun coulee to Deep Ravine - there another company sized stand was made (likely E). The retreat objective for both left and right battalions was Last Stand hill which was 'thickly carpeted with bodies'. The right btn, under Keogh (L, I cos) did not make it to last stand hill. C co MAY have been split into two halves, balancing the L/R btns. According to Maguire the column fought all the way from Ford B (medicine tail coulee). No Richard Fox scenario from the Terry column engineer looking at the field 2 days after the battle with an expert eye. I believe Lt Edward Maguire.
We listened to Michael Donahue at Little Bighorn in May 2019 and he gave a wonderful description of the battle. I think he said he teaches at a Texas college also.
“General..YOU go down there. You go down there” what an awesome video. I flew over some years ago for the GBurg, Harper’s Ferry & Antietam trail but this battle has a very personal connection to my family. I’d love to visit it one day. Keep up the great work guys and thanks for sharing.
Was just there last week and heard him speak- great presentation
My teenagers got a lot out of it as did we in this Holy place!
Excellent. That day will be talked about in the next century too
Good stuff, I loved my visit their, one of the hidden gems of our park system, totally changed how i saw that battle
Excellent and informed talk sir! Thanks.
Top stuff, Mr. Donahue. Thank you
Lots of pertinent information! Thank you, Ranger Donahue! 🥰
Excellent. Thank you so much. I’ve watched every video I can on this subject. Your fresh perspective is good. Also like your Art of Battle too
Excellent, we were there last July for 2 days, we’re coming back this year for 2 days on our way back from Yellowstone
Well done... Thanks...!
No trees (cedar) because of the fire… I assume that’s where the sniper shot from (trees) during the battle. Always learning something new! The tactical talks are perfect! Thank you.
2. Lt Edward Maguire's report describes a running fight all thd way from Ford B to last stand hill. E co makes a stand at Deep Ravine likely using the steep gulch to hide their horses and use the ravine slopes as a breastwork for a skirmish line. 28 bodies were found in this ravine. They bought time for a consolidation on last stand hill. It always seemed NONSENSICAL to me that E Co would deploy off last stand hill to charge diwnhill 500 yards into a ravine full of warriors. Maguire says their was a line of bodies killed reyreating TO last stand hill FROM deep ravine. He was there two days after the battle. 3.
3. By the time the memorial stones were brought the bohes were scattered all over hell's half acre by predators and it was pure guesswork to place them. But Lt Maguire saw the truth of the matter 2 days after the battle. There was no Ford D recon. No attempt to capture non combatants. The Custer wing fought for it's survival from Ford B to last stand hill and it was all over quickly, abour 2 hours from the medecine tail retreat to game over.
Excellent
It's possible Custer's brigade stayed down and then traversed Cedar Coulee after Custer rode to the top of Weir Point to recon the village. This would maintain the element of surprise by keeping the giant dust cloud behind the ridge as they flanked.
Not even sure why I'm arguing this or why it even matters...
well said!! R.I.P to all the soldiers. sad event
AND RIP to the warriors
thanks again
Little big man. Mr Reece
Terrific presentation, Mr. Donahue. Question. Is there a wind muff on the microphone? If not, you guys should get one.
Probably is but it’s quite windy there. Been there twice
I saw the "Little Big Man" film at its Premiere in Denmark and it was a long film of I think 3 hours by then! I have later seen versions which have been cut to pieces, with a lot of the original film and stuff missing, making parts of the film absurd.
Very interesting stuff! Too bad cameraman doesn't know how to keep the mike cleared. Maybe he can get it right next time.
Ranger Donahue, seems very confident in his narrative. However I don't care for his stylings personally.
I just think if You heard him twice or several times? Each Time his narrative is going to be entirely different. I might be Wrong in thinking this? But that's the impression, or feeling. I'm getting, just from the above video.
Tell me if I'm wrong? Please.
little big man was more anti Vietnam War than historical fact. the wild bill Hickok narrative is a case in point. a map would have helped explain the route. I talked to the LBH chief historian who had just relocated to Fort Laramie at the time (1995) and as I recall he insisted that the route was down cedar coulee. since I don't see a map I am unsure where cedar coulee is with respect to the other terrain features. how does blunders ridge fit into the scheme of maneuver. thanks for the video, I am sure you get tired of listening to everyone's half baked ideas.
Anybody that's done some research on The Little Big Horn knows there's no way he went that way makes no sense
You're quoting Peter Thompson?
As I suggested last year when we were talking about your book, Where the Rivers Ran Red, we should name that unnamed coulee that Custer led the 7th to Medicine Tail Coulee, "Custer Coulee".
I mean, agreed, the coulee could use a name
but haven't we had enough of the Custer Cult type stuff?
@theblackprince no we haven’t
Guy sounds like Lee Trevino.
Why is it important? If you have to ask, you will never understand. All the eyewitnesses are dead, most of the source material has been sifted, and it is hard to get any new revelations without digging deeper with what we have. One thing this does help with is establishing a timeline, and that has been something I see few agree on. The idea that Custer was engaging while Reno's troopers were still on the firing line- or even still in the wood- shows what an overwhelming force of warriors they met. I know it has been a trend to downplay the force they met, probably because it seemed more like a poor Reno defense of his flight than an accurate estimate, but he did say he thought he was fighting the whole Sioux Nation. That indicates there were more than enough to corral the 7th, even if you attempt to extrapolate probable combatants based on teepee circles, lodgepole drag marks, and wikiup remains.
It seems that the force pursuing Reno left to support the warriors attacking Custer, and I have read accounts that claimed they were surprised by his advance on the village and raced to save the non-combatants. If we follow Ranger Donahue, there were more than enough warriors to deter Custer, and they were more concerned with getting their personal battle preparations right than fearing being overwhelmed by a couple hundred troopers. Those nearest may have panicked, but for the most part, accounts indicate Custer annoyed them more by showing up early after a huge block party the night before. So why did those warriors leave Reno for the most part, and head to join the sufficient numbers opposing Custer? Why not charge the demoralized troopers on the hill before they could organize, or Benteen and the pack train reinforced them? It just wasn't their method of warfare. The few times they tried went poorly for them. Later accounts mention how they would sneak close enough to throw arrows or dirt clods, just to show they were brave and skilled enough to get that close. Poor Long Road demonstrated that it would be very difficult to convince warriors assured of victory to risk themselves charging a prepared position when they could starve them out, or control the water nearby, or snipe from nearby hills. Most deaths after Reno was corralled were because it seemed a shame to get all dressed up for nothing!
So for the last 140 years they’ve had it wrong?
John Martin, Giovannetti Martini.. were there two buglers who delivered messages?
John Martin was his English name.
I wish you would have spoke on why it’s believed from Indian accounts & testimony, White Cow Bull that Custer & two companies reached the river where he claimed Custer was shot in the chest & fell from his horse.
None of the Indians even knew Custer was who they were fighting, so how could they have known they killed him? Not to mention he was NOT wearing a buckskin jacket, he had removed it as it was hot that day, he did NOT have his often incorrectly shown long hair as he had clipped it off before he left Ft. Lincoln. So again how could they have known they shot Custer? He was very much alive probably right up until the end of the battle.
@@gderdall1213 White Cow Bull who claimed he shot Custer, described the man he shot & horse he was riding, a fine looking big horse, a sorrel with white stockings, the reaction of the soldiers when the officer fell from his horse. White Cow Bull’s account was backed up by White Man Runs Him, Curley, White Shield etc.
Frederick Wagner in Strategy of Defeat put serious holes in White Cow Bull's stories
@@rickbreze7469 yeah why no thompson account? He witnessed it too, custer and two deep battle line at river. Cuz no bodies? Come on. They were dragged away and mutilated or drifted down the river seeing they were next to the lakota camp. No bullets tho....and indians didnt take casings for reload? Of course they did! Everyone did one the prarie. A casing can be shot 60+ times with the same caliber.
@@rickbreze7469 white Cow Bull also described the rifle the 'soldier chief' was firing...He said 'the soldier chief was firing his heavy Rifle'...An odd thing to make note of during a firefight... Custer was carrying his Rolling Block Rifle a 50-70...and it is substantially longer than the 45-70s the troopers were carrying...and that also gives an indication of how close the warriors and soldiers were to each other
The Sioux was a cruel..savage enemy
So might you be if your home containing your wife, children and extended family was attacked without warning ... Women and children were shot and killed when the soldiers initially opened fire on the village. The Sioux then swarmed out of the village in response ... All of this took place on land ceded to them in an earlier treaty...
The soldiers were worse. Read your history. All the natives in the battle were defending themselves against a foreign invader.
@@tedclairmont8837 The Lakota were also a foreign invader. They invaded lands of the Crow and Shoshone, which is the reason that so many Crows, Shoshone and Arikara allied themselves with the army.
Why was Cedar Coulee proposed as a route to the village to begin with ?
See Custer Apollo
If you’ve been wrong about cedar coulee what else have you been wrong about?
What about the account of Chief Johngrass? Are you discounting it?
I honestly don't think it makes much difference where they went to get to the medicine tail coulee since we are talking about almost adjacent routes that imply a few minutes of difference. furthermore it is obvious that riding in a long blue line is much more visible if you are at the top of a ridge rather than at the bottom of a gorge and Custer certainly didn't want to be seen to take the camp by surprise from behind. Cedar coulee offered a much more sheltered path than Weir's ridge so it seems likely to me that they passed that way but in any case the difference in terms of travel time between the two routes is minimal since they are practically adjacent. lastly the Giovanni Martini testimony is clear ...... Custer used Cedar coulee to approach the indian village
"I honestly don't think it makes much difference where they went to get to the medicine tail coulee since we are talking about almost adjacent routes that imply a few minutes of difference"
You don't think 5-6 minutes makes a difference in battle? A million things can happen in that time. The domino collapse of C Company, then L Company, then I Company all happened in under 5 minutes, as repeated indian charges, collapse of the skirmish lines of C & then L, disorganized retreats, loss of horses, then panic & the collapse of the Keogh Battalion is proof.
"furthermore it is obvious that riding in a long blue line is much more visible if you are at the top of a ridge rather than at the bottom of a gorge"
True. yet there were two other coulees to go down, closer to the river.
He had two other choices & did not have to ride across the ridge & be seen.
Middle coulee offered just as much of a sheltered & unseen path as Cedar. Which is obvious.
" so it seems likely to me that they passed that way but in any case the difference in terms of travel time between the two routes is minimal since they are practically adjacent."
They are not practically adjacent. There is close to a half mile between them at widest parts.
The difference in terms of travel time is*NOT* minimal.
3,480 feet from weir pt down middle coulee.
It is 5,180 feet from top of weir pt, down the ravine to the extreme right & into Cedar, then down the constantly northeasterly cedar coulee.
The exit from Middle Coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee is 2800 feet *CLOSER* to medicine tail ford, than the exit from Cedar Coulee , into Medicine Tail Coulee (A full half mile)
4500 feet total is the distance discrepancy - roughly .85 miles.
Cavalry - on a hard flat dirt packed surface:
240 yards per minute at a trot - 6 minutes 15 secs difference.
300 yards per minute at the gallop - 5 minutes difference.
Cedar Coulee was not hard flat packed dirt surface...it was grassy, bushy, windy, narrow & uneven so you can knock 5% off the top speed right there.
These particular cavalry horses were also exhausted...so you can subtract some speed there. how much is debatable compared to fresh horses.
Let's say it only takes 5% off their normal "fresh" top speed.
That is for both coulees:
Trot - roughly 32 secs
Gallop - roughly 30 secs
5 & a half minutes, to 6 minutes & 45 seconds is an eternity in a battle like that.
It's 4840 yards (2.8 miles roughly) in a zig zag path for an indian from where Reno was pushed back at the river to get back to Medicine Tail Ford along the west side.
Cavalry horses at the trot & gallop were not going their full capable speed. it was less because maintaining formation was the key.
The indian ponies were fresh & carried far less weight than tired, played out cavalry horses. They could easily hit & maintain 300 yards per minute at a gallop & sustain it. Which means the ones who pursued Reno to the river were able to get back to MTF (from the west side) in 16 minutes.
The ones that simply drove Reno back but did not pursue him to the ford, or those who arrived there late, were only 1.5 - 1.8 miles away from MTC. At a full gallop they could make it back to MTF easily in 5 to 7 minutes.
We are talking about a roughly 5.5 - 7 minute delay by taking Cedar. It absolutely made a difference if he took Cedar, yet could have taken Middle Coulee. He might have been able to make the assault directly across MTF virtually unopposed, as well as being able to place a company up on the high ground to the south to completely control a field of fire across the whole village center, and north across MTC. also would have put him within easy sight & communication with Benteen, Reno, Weir & the packs.
He may not have been able to capture the retreating women & children who were already fleeing, yet he could have completely destroyed the entire village, the tipis, the supplies, etc.
If Custer did in fact take Cedar, it was a very bad mistake, that cost him possibly a victory & definitely his life.
@@USCFlash we have different opinions
@@andreascala2663
There is a difference between opinion & error.
Regardless of your opinion it remains a fact, that a 6-7 minute difference in a battle, whether you like it or not, can be colossal.
Your opinion is in error, if you do not think that 6-7 minutes mattered in this battle.
If you had said:
- Custer should not have split his command so many times.....that is a fair opinion.
- Custer should have brought the gatling guns or accepted another 4 companies of 2nd cavalry as support...that is a fair opinion.
-The 7th cavalry should've been armed with repeating 1873 model winchesters...that is a fair opinion.
But you say that a 6-7 minute time difference in a battle, does not matter. That is quite simply an error based off ignorance & arrogance...not an informed opinion where two reasonable people can agree to disagree over some small discrepancy or tactic or strategy.
Had the distance & time difference been say 50 yards & only 5-10 seconds sure, I'd say you were correct & the distance/time difference did not matter.
But your time/distance estimations are WAY off. There is a very significant difference in distance & time.
Go look at google maps yourself & use their distance measurement tool
You are simply in error. the distance & the time difference, is significant in a time sensitive attack, with little knowledge of how your comrades are faring & comms only by messenger.
Custer took Cedar Coulee...& he &all his troops died. We will never know what would have happened had he taken Middle Coulee, or Western coulee (even faster than middle coulee)
Had Custer taken middle coulee, it is an incontrovertible fact, that at the same speed, he'd have gotten to the same spot 6-7 minutes sooner than Cedar Coulee route.
We will never know what would have happened...but it most CERTAINLY would have affected the battle timeline & events from that point on...enough to win it, or to survive or to still die, we do not know....but the timeline & therefore the actions would thusly be different & thusly would change in some way.
Your claim/opinion that it was a minimal difference in distance & time, is factually incorrect.
Your now deliberately ignorant & arrogant rejection of the possible military importance of a 7 minute earlier arrival for the strike at Medicine Tail Ford, in order to cover for your erroneous, uninformed, unmeasured & unresearched calculations of the time & distance differences of the coulees...is preposterous.
@@USCFlash the first time I replied that we have different opinions. now I reply that you are arrogant and presumptuous and I invite you not to write to me again or I will report you
Sorry Ranger Man. Custer was seen by some of Renos men up on the bluffs waving his hat as Renos men engaged the Sioux end of the village. Some of the crow scouts said Custer and some men stopped their march & watched Rnos men fighting in the valley for 20 or so minuetes. Not sure That Custer would stop for that long while fighting was comenced as he was concerned about the indians getting away. The indians did break off their attack on Renos men after they fled over the river & up the bluffs. There were only a few warriors that stayed behind to loot and dismember the troopers that fell on the route. You are mistanken in your thinking that Reno enged the southerne end of the village @ the same time Custers men engaged the Cheyane end of the village. I do agree that he wouldn't have gone down cedar coulee. I could go on but I have other fish to fry.
There's a lot of mysteries about this battle and I suppose that's a part of the allure of it.
No mysteries......just mistakes and ghosts of the little BigHorn
Wait, your interpretation changes as you get new data? I thought that the science was settled once there was consensus. Who would have thought?
Completely incorrect. The scientific method isn't the method without considering new data. Myth and dogma are the exact opposite.
Bluffs, coulees, ravines, hills….if you could point out some sense of direction and location that would help immensely. Just literally point or something.
Middle Coulee makes sense. Custer was not out scouting for a good picnic sight. Time for engagement of the Indians was pressing. Middle C. provided much quicker access to the River. Now that said, not worth arguing about. Did not change the outcome. But we will always ruminate for answers.
4. Final comment. Custer watched Reno deploy his skirmish line. He got to Ford B ASAP, 2 miles away from Reno due to the bluffs preventing closer support. Custer did his best to support Reno. If Reno had held on anither 30 minutes then the course of the battle could have been a long odds victory for the 7th, OR a total massacre in the valley bottom, defested in detail. Either way it wouid have made an even greater Hollywood movie. Reno and Benteen let their commander down, ending up ignobly besieged on their little bluff top hollow, only to be rescued by 200 infantrymen with their long Tom Springfield rifles.
So,as you stated that Reno was engaged when Custer attacked/was attacked,then the warriors didn’t leave Reno to attack Custer. What force wiped out Custer? The remaining “B” team warriors left to protect woman and children while the “A” team attacked Reno? They had to get a timeline which to sell to the government that makes sense or Custer would be looked on as the fool that he was. He couldn’t of been wiped out by the “B” team so by saying he got slowed down in the Cedar Cooley would give the warriors the time needed to break off from Reno and come and whip his ass…😳
If only Reno hadn’t been a coward and remained fighting in trees. Wouldn’t have allowed natives to bring pincer movement on Custer.
Why put roads through a sacred battlefield 🙄
Because white people don't care about sacred sites?
@@MrDanSchulte sounds right
Only 1 road thru the battlefield. On top of the ridge. Provides great access and views on/of the battlefield. Very limited in the “destruction” it caused. Most, if not all markers were off the road. I
know if any had to be moved due to road construction. And the road basically followed horse/wagon trail established in the 1800’s after the battle.
I don’t believe this scenario.