Almost all tropes can be done well or poorly, but I think chosen one in particular is hugely dependent on the execution. For me, chosen one isn't a reason for me to pick up a book, but it also won't put me off a book. I think for the most part, I like the chosen one trope when it feels more like a burden. Wheel of Time and HP both do this really well. The main characters being chosen ones add to the struggles they go through. I don't like it when the chosen one just means the main character is naturally way more powerful than anyone else without any downside, or when they have no personality aside from being the chosen one.
I pretty much completely agree with you, with tiny caveat that I don't think it always needs to feel like a burden...but it should definitely always be or feel-like a huge-huge responsibility. But I also don't think I always mind it at all if a Chosen One story is more triumphant than struggling; I don't think a character having struggles automatically gives them more personality, nor do I really think that not-struggling innately means lacking personality either. But maybe that's just me.🙂
"...I will say that if you haven't read Mistborn and like a chosen one trope, that's a great trilogy for you." 100%! What Brandon Sanderson did with the whole Chosen One thing really drew me in!
I agree with the "chosen ones not really being chosen ones". I always think it's weird when people call Katniss a chosen one. I think it's an interesting trope, because the prophecy can be used in two different ways: either it's inevitable and nothing anyone does can ever change it or it's more like a "guideline". People still get to make their own decisions which may or may not change the outcome. A chosen one and prophecies in general can make a great exploration about Destiny and the free will.
Completely agree! Sometimes, I feel like people [especially with female main characters ]kind of just conflate "Mary Sue" and "Chosen One" together, and so in their mind(s) basically then any female lead character is just a super-special "Chosen One"/"Mary Sue" simply for being the focus or center of their own story-it's kind of baffling and tragic, for sure. But Katniss really wasn't a specifically chosen one any more than any/every other ordinary main-character is. (But, also, that the Chosen One does have multiple different directions it can be taken and can make great stories/characters!)
If reading The Wheel of Time has taught me anything, it’s that maybe you don’t always want to describe everything. But if it’s taught me anything else, it’s that chosen ones can result in really interesting characters and stories
I’ve been reading it for a while now and while it’s not my new favorite series, I’ve been blown away at how much it leans on tropes that are borderline cliche and still feel completely original. I’ve never seen the Chosen One be treated so much like a villain before, and it’s awesome
Yes, I like that you said 'Chosen 'ones''' plural. With the three main male leads being described as ta'veren. One of my main issues with WoT, was Mat's luck. I apologise if I missed the signinficance. But, it felt like massive plot contrivance in the final few books. I know it's explained, but I just couldn't find it plausible.
@@MrRjhyt Anything in particular? I might be forgetting something but just thinking back I don't seem to recall his luck being as significant of a factor towards the end; instead I felt like he started to accept and make use of his battle commander heritage that he had tried for so long to ignore. Going a bit beyond that, I don't think it's fair to Mat as a character to say it's any more of a plot contrivance than any of the other supernatural occurrences in the book. It was probably even more developed, explained, and tied in throughout the book than Perrin being a wolf-brother. From a purely writing standpoint, I don't see a significant difference between the two, or even Rand being the Dragon Reborn. Unnatural things happen to Mat because he's lucky, but similarly, unnatural things happen to Perrin because he's a wolf-brother and Rand because he's the Dragon Reborn. There are both positive and negative consequences to each of these traits throughout the story. I think I would agree if the effects of his luck were always positive, but it just as often put him into bad situations.
Most popular Chosen One character by far is Jesus from the Christian Bible. I’m sure nobody wants to bring it up, because they believe all of this is real instead of fantasy. But as far as stories go, it checks off a huge swath of Fantasy tropes. The chosen one: he called himself the chosen one. The secret heir: he called himself the only descendent of God. The dark lord: he named his adversary as the devil. Good vs. evil: he said that he’s good and that his adversary is evil, very plainly. Magic: he displayed magical powers many times during his life, especially by resurrecting Lazarus and himself. Damsels in distress: Mary Magdalene, among many others (male or female), were protected and rescued by him. The mentor: for 3 years, he was a mentor to many. The big quest: he foresaw his own death and prepared his followers for it. Ancient settings: 0 to 33 AD/CE would be considered ancient by most modern readers. All powerful artifacts: the method of his final torture and death is the symbol of an entire relgion built around the things he said and did. The hidden truth: that’s what he is constantly revealing to everyone around him. It was a very cool club when it started, but has since grown to include many believers. Training sequence: non-traditional, but the 3 years Jesus encourages his disciples to follow him and learn from him can be thought of as the disciples’ training sequence. Jesus doesn’t learn anything since he’s inherited his knowledge from a divine source.
Yeah I would say in general people frown on their religion being called fantasy. I prefer to respect peoples beliefs and so don’t talk about The Bible/Koran/ what have you as lit.
Spot on! All Chosen Ones are heroes, but not all heroes are Chosen Ones. I love the Chosen One trope, too. There's just something compelling about the dilemma between choosing and accepting your destiny that makes these stories that much more desirable to read.
You are 100% right about Katniss, she is definitely not a chosen one. I feel like Bilbo and Frodo is a little more "gray" after all, there is that scene where Gandalf does say something about fate, and how Bilbo and Frodo were MEANT to have the ring. No prophesy of any note, but it could be argued they are chosen to bear the Ring.
Faramir's and Boromir's dream could be seen as something of a prophecy. "Seek for the for the sword that was broken. In Imladris it dwells. There shall be councils taken, stronger then Morgal Spells. There shall be shone a token that Doom is near at hand, for Isildur's Bane shall waken, and the Halfling forth shall stand." Perhaps not amazing predictions - I'm not sure if Frodo and Sam had already committed to the journey or not at that time, and "standing" is a little ambiguous, but if we need a prophecy to make the trope...
@@MagusMarquillin I’m going to go ahead and agree here. We may not be bashed over the head with a chosen one story with Frodo but it’s definitely there. I had forgotten all about the rest of the dream, I usually just think of seek for the sword and the Isildurs Bane part.
@@MaxFidler I have a longer comment here arguing in favor of this trope in LotR, citing that very conversation with Gandalf - but with Tolkien's amazing subtlety, I understand anyone taking Bookborn's stance on this.
Yeah someone came in with the LOTR lore and I'd agree that it's gray, and not quite a no like I said. You could interpret it either way - which is probably why its interesting
@@Bookborn Overall, I don't like the idea of saying something is a trope unless the intent is to claim the source material has no depth. Boiling something down to a "trope" is a gross simplification of that character or event in the story and the stories we're discussing are much more complicated than that which is why there's even a debate. If we had to analyze the Chosen One trope against LotR, however, I would argue that Frodo certainly is not one and the suggestion that he is diminishes his character and what he means to the story and to the reader. Frodo is a passive character throughout the story. The only decision he actually makes in the entire story is to leave the Fellowship. Leaving the Shire was decided for him by Bilbo giving him the Ring and Gandalf telling him what he needed to do with it. He makes some minor decisions about when to leave and packing his things, but nothing that affects the plot. Prior to Rivendell, Bilbo, Gandalf, Aragorn, and the Nazgul are the only active characters in the plot. Someone might make the argument that he made the decision to carry the ring to Mt. Doom at the meeting in Rivendell, but I'm not convinced that he even did that. For that to have been an active decision on the part of his character, he would have first had to choose to give up the ring, which he never did. After the Fellowship set out, the next point which could seem like a decision for Frodo is the choice of going to Moria. it is a statement by his character to do so, after all, but by that time all of the other options that had been presented to him had been removed. The dangers of the other two options had been fully realized and were clear to Frodo while the supposed danger of Moria was still ill-defined and murky. There was no real choice here. There are no more possible choices until he leaves the Fellowship on the banks of the Anduin. After leaving the Fellowship, it could be argued that he made a choice to follow Gollum, and this is probably pretty close. However, he's in a strange land, I can't recall if he knows of the maze-like passages of Emyn Muil or not but he knows that he doesn't actually know how to get to Mordor, so he doesn't really have a lot of options and I would argue there is no choice for his character here, despite the obvious threat that Gollum poses. After that, it could be argue that he chose to spare Gollum's life with Faramir but, again, Gollum is his only path into Mordor as he sees it, he doesn't really have any choice here. After the fight with Shelob, the ring is now too much of a burden for him to make any active decisions and Sam becomes the active character in the story in place of Gollum, all the way until Mt. Doom, when the will of the ring takes control of his character and Gollum ultimately heralds its destruction. It was not through Frodo's actions that the ring was destroyed; he simply carried it along the way. I would argue that for a character to be a Chosen One, they must actually be an active character in their own story. Frodo is not. That isn't to diminish his character at all. He bore the burden and suffered and persevered, but he didn't make very many active decisions. His choice, as a character, was to hold out, to stand in the face of evil and say not this day. Frodo represents the best of what's inside us. The indomitable human spirit, the will to face the difficulties and challenges of life and persevere until the bitter end, to know that as long as we can hold on and allow ourselves to accept the aid of those around us, we'll make it through. There isn't anything special or chosen about Frodo because Frodo is all of us.
This agrees with something I have said a lot: "Trope X" isn't falling out of style so much as "Trope X done poorly" is falling out of style. Most people I've heard complaining about the Chosen One trope aren't unhappy with the idea of a (supposedly) inevitable destiny (the core of a Chosen One trope) so much as the auto-success that so many Chosen Ones experience. This isn't to say there aren't valid critiques of Chosen One uses, such as the people I've heard say they dislike the concept of one person being selected as "better" than the rest of the cast, but no trope is loved by everyone. It does, however, feel like many people dislike the Chosen One trope because they're tired of seeing it done poorly. As an aside, my book is in SPFBO 8, is an adult fantasy, and has a Chosen One. Here's hoping Booknest likes it enough to send it to finals! I hope you enjoy your pool of books for SPFBO. A lot of them look awesome.
Hard agree. As more and more media gets produced (let's face it, we have more books and shows and movies being made than ever) the more chance we have to see poor versions of them. I also think tropes do come and go in waves. Good luck with SPFBO! Which is your book?
@@Bookborn Popularity varies, for sure, and it's also true that readers tend to connect more with the tropes they grew up on, so as trends go through the industry different generations have different "classic" tropes they love. I'd be fascinated by an evaluation of trends in publishing and how they align with (or deviate from) broader reader interest. Thank you! I wrote Wake of the Phoenix. Booknest has it for the first round, but I was so humbled to see Fantasy Book Critic pull it out as one of the books they saw in the competition that they think has an interesting cover and/or title and/or blurb. It's SO much pressure, especially when you start reading the other books in the competition and realize how good some of them are! My reading list is getting very long.
I definitely agree with you both! And, even when something does legit "fall out of style"-that's never a guarantee that it'll be dead forever either. Lol
@@Bookborn Totally. The reluctant hero differs from the chosen one because it’s not fate or prophecy that calls the reluctant hero. But both heroes suffer from the call to action being thrust upon them whether or not they want it. That said, Frodo is likely a chosen one. Citing Gandalf telling Frodo that he was meant to the have the Ring but also, as it was pointed out to me, In Boromir’s dream- which stated that the Halflings will stand. It may be gray area, but I think there is probably enough evidence to support the argument that Frodo is both reluctant hero and a chosen one.
@@Bookborn I wonder how you feel about Avatar the last airbender. While there is not specifically a prophecy about Aang ending a war he seems to be somewhat of a chosen one by just being the avatar? Anyway, he is reluctant FOR SURE
@@Bookborn While Rand Al'Thor is definitetly both a chosen one AND a reluctant hero... And Mat Cauthon is DEFINITELY a reluctant hero... Is Mat also a chosen one? He was, after all, prophesied... as was Perrin.
It's NOT. Like being a hero doesn't mean you are chosen! So if you are tired of a single hero in a story, that's one thing, but don't blame it all on the chosen one 😭 (But also I'm basic and don't mine a straight up hero with a happy ending lol)
@@Bookborn I'm 10,000+% agreeing with both of you, on all of this. (And I don't mind a straightforward hero with a happy ending either-even though I also don't mind just about any other option either🤣🖤💜)
When all's said and done, it doesn't matter what people are currently saying online. This isn't a matter of transient literary fads. This is deeply rooted in human psychology; it's into Jungian archetype territory. It goes back millenia and will still be a thing, long after the latest arc of the "it's cool to dislike that which is common" pendulum has swung back.
Agreed! I almost made a comment about that in my video. Fads and trends come and go but there is a reason some things stick around for so long. Chosen one is something I truly believe won’t ever go away
That's a very interesting topic. The chosen one trope definitely means a character having a fate/responsibility put on them through outside supernatural forces (hence the use of prophecies). You talked about the Greek myths, and after finishing The Iliad last month, it seemed to have more to do with fatality (For example, Achilles was doomed to die in the Trojan war). Same with Oedipus (I've read Sophocles' play): he couldn't escape killing his father and marrying his mother. It wasn't about responsibility. What struck me when I read LOTR about Aragorn is that he was clearly a Christ-like figure and, unlike what we see in the movies where's he's reluctant, he embraced from the start his prophesied role as King and Healer of his people. He knew he was the One who had to be in that position, so peace and reunification could happen after the devastating war. Which is very reminiscent of the biblical Millenium in which Christ - the King - comes back for a thousand years, restores the Land of Israel and reigns on his people (both Jews and Gentiles reunited through Him). So I actually thought Aragorn embracing his role and fighting for his people in the war and then healing the wounded was beautiful and meaningful just as much as Harry Potter's struggles and hardships through it all. I think both versions of this trope worked very well for those specific stories and I really wouldn't change a thing (except I wish Neville was the real chosen one, I would have loved such a plot twist 😌).
Great analysis. I do think it’s interesting how you parsed that the chosen one in Greek myths is often used for a very different reason then what we think of in modern storytelling. I have to admit I love that Neville isn’t a chosen one - he does it all on his own which I find very special
@@onfaerystories I love pretty much everything you two have said here!. Just..two thoughts that popped into my mind over here though : 1.) even Biblical Jesus is actually mildly reluctant, and also dies in the end; at least, physically speaking not spiritually (thus resurrects and returns again later on), but still; he actually goes and begs God 'is there no other way?' but the answer is 'No'/'this is the only way', although he does ultimately [trust God's way / ]accept that burden/responsibility anyhow. & 2.) I don't think something being somehow predestined or inevitable necessarily negates someone's agency/choices; I mean, is a prophecy always really some inescapable thing which forces them to make certain choices or act certain ways when otherwise they wouldn't have, or is it sometimes really just a declaration of what their choices or actions all on their own would eventually have been sooner or later anyhow?? 🤔😅😁
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I made the parallel between Aragorn and Jesus coming back as King, not Jesus having to be a sacrifice. He was human too and he knew how hard his task was, how painful both physically and mentally. So yes, in that sense, he still asked God if there was another way, but that's not what I was focussing on. But you're absolutely right, Jesus ultimately CHOSE to die for us, because any responsibility/sacrifice requires active love, which is a quality most chosen ones do have (and that's why these outside forces see potential in them in the first place).
@@onfaerystories Oh-no, no, no! I wasn't trying to say that was the parallel that you were making, or anything; Sorry! I was just saying, because you contrasted Aragorn versus like the Greek tragedies or such. Like, in that sense, even those comparisons or two versions of the Chosen One trope/concept wouldn't necessarily be that entirely different[ just in that one tiny respect]-and even Chosen Ones in modern fiction do still sometimes die in the end. And maybe the difference between Aragorn in the movie versus Aragorn in the books wasn't actually/necessarily that completely or entirely totally-divorced from each other either? That was all. I wasn't trying to criticize or add-to specifically what you and Bookborn said or such-that was just a slight, tangentially-related rabbit hole my own brain jumped down as I read what you and Bookborn said, which seemed worth sharing possibly. Lol ^-^
Bilbo was chosen by Gandalf. It’s never quite clear how much magic is involved in Gandalf’s decisions. So in my reading, Bilbo is a chosen one in The Hobbit. Same goes for Jezal in The First Law series, who is chosen by Bayaz. That’s maybe my favorite recent take on it, though there are some nice variations/distortions of the Theme in the Malazan Book of the Fallen. As for its antecedents, I think it traces back to King Arthur and Excalibur.
I agree, some of the best stories are chosen one stories, no need to act like we're over it. I can sort of see why Lord of the Rings is cited as one of these sort of stories: when Frodo asks "why did it (the ring) come to me, why was I chosen?", Gandalf confirms that "you have been chosen." and that "Bilbo was _meant_ to find the ring, and _not_ by it's maker. In which case you also were _meant_ to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.". It's true, there's no prophecy and therefore Tolkien's not heavy handed about it, but especially when we read the Silmarillion we learn more about the heavenly powers behind the story - lightly alluded to in LotR - willing fate (doom) onto certain special people. Gandalf himself is an agent of that power (the Secret Fire), though he doesn't know everything they know, he had the insight to _insist_ Bilbo go on that quest. I don't really disagree with you though, because there's no prophecy, and most characters see it in terms of chance, and ultimately it was Frodo's own choice to take the ring to Rivendell and again choose to bare it to Mordor - but then again, any good chosen one story probably makes it seem like the One has some agency in determining their fate - Dumbledore made that clear, but then again that's probably why they were chosen, because that's the sort of person they are.
Then again, we could definitely argue Faramir's and Boromir's dream as something of a prophecy. "Seek for the for the sword that was broken. In Imladris it dwells. There shall be councils taken, stronger then Morgal Spells. There shall be shone a token that Doom is near at hand, for Isildur's Bane shall waken, and the Halfling forth shall stand." Perhaps not amazing predictions, I'm not sure if Frodo and Sam had already committed to the journey or not at that time, and "standing" is a little ambiguous, but if you need a prophecy for the trope...
You coming in hot with the LOTR lore is what I needed! I think from everything you said it's probably not a hard no, but rather ambiguous. Tolkien played around with a lot of tropes, and so maybe we could think of Bilbo and Frodo as semi-chosen ones. You could argue it either way.
I agree with you both-in the case of LotR, it's definitely open for interpretation, either way. 😊 (I also agree that any good Chosen One is chosen specifically because that is the sort of person they are, a person who would choose the right/world-saving/ path; Unless we make it more about being "the only one" who is capable of doing X-thing because X-reason, like needing yin vs yang, or whatever[ which I mean can also sometimes apply too..sometimes even IN the case of being the one would would choose the right path or such].)
LOTR arguably also makes use of the Chosen One trope, albeit more subtly. All of the events in the story are guided by divine providence - as Gandalf said to Frodo, "Bilbo was _meant_ to find the ring, in which case you were _meant_ to find it". Frodo has basically been chosen by God to be the ring-bearer. There's no ancient prophecy involved, but he was just as 'chosen' for his task as Rand al'Thor was for his.
Like many, I have issues with the Star Wars prequels (though I do still appreciate them overall), but I think Lucas did a legitimately interesting twist on the Chosen One, setting Anakin up to fall, even though he still technically fulfilled the prophecy.
I don't like this as a trope but like I obviously have a lot of the same favorites, and a lot of them do it well. It just doesn't *excite* me. I am never pumped about the idea of a chosen one. Mistborn is maybe an exception in execution, and I do agree that Wheel of Time handles it in the most interesting way that I've seen, but overall it's just too tied to prophecies and I don't like prophecies that much...I think my actual favorite prophecy/chosen one trope IS Harry Potter and that's because it could have actually been Neville but Voldemort chose Harry which set all sorts of things in motion. So the "what if" nature of it has always been intriguing to me.
That is totally fair, I think. 🙂 Not every person is going to have all the same preference(s)-that's a big part of what I think makes it worth there being so many different people. _(I also love 'What ifs' too^^)_
you have such a refreshing view on so many aspects of fantasy that have been talked into the ground, everyone wants to fight back on the successful tropes and say the are overdone, which may be the case, but every type of story up until this time could be considered overdone, I love the chosen one trope and I want to see it redone over and over in different ways, I think its interesting in how many ways the story can be told (as long as its in an interesting way)
I also think there is a reason we go back to certain tropes - some of them have basic roots in humanity and things we like to explore as people. Those will always resonate with us.
I love chosen one stories. Interestingly my favorite ones are all sci fi. Dune, Star Wars and Matrix are my favorite chosen one stories. I didn’t like it as much in Harry Potter and would have preferred if it was more random. But I still liked the series a lot. The biggest detractor for me is that you have to be special to be a hero and you can’t just work your way up.
Harry Potter is an interesting Chosen One, because the prophesies could have applied to either him or Nevel Longbottom, and it was actually Voldemort who chose between the two, setting them on the path to put an end to the Riddle. Throughout the books, Harry has the choice to abandon the quest ... but Voldemort keeps doing things to provoke Harry, like ordering Cedric Diggory killed, ensuring that Harry will stay on the path that will lead to Voldemort's defeat. Rand al'Thor is also an interesting Chosen One because he spends the first 2 books of the epic denying that he is the chosen one, almost completely drops out of the narrative in the 3rd book when he tries to prove whether he is the Dragon Reborn or not, and horrible things happen to him in the later books because people REFUSE to understand his nature or their place in the pattern. Moiraine and Suan had a plan to find the reborn Dragon and sequester him in Tar Valon until THEY deemed he was ready, essentially setting themselves against the pattern, as if they knew better than the Creator: their plan would have doomed the world to the Dark One, and Elaida's plan would have had the same result. As bad as Elaida's plan was, and her choice of people to carry it out, Moiraine and Suan's was worse, because it would have meant years for Rand to be discovered, and either gentled or turned - the Eye of the World would have been lost, the Horn of Valere would have been lost along with the Dragon Banner, the Seanchan would have consolidated their foothold, and Rand would have likely ignored the Aiel and Sea Folk prophesies. The torture that Rand received would have been nothing in comparison to the Dragon Reborn not being free to influence and be influenced by the Pattern.
I'll show my age here... But, I loved The chronicle of Thomas Covenant when I was younger. He's very much the chosen one, and a quite intriguing anti-hero, and very resistant to the role. We also have Linden Avery lit. The Chosen, in the subsequent series.
The first Thomas Covenant trilogy was one of the hardest that I ever read. When he did you-know-what... I wished he was real so I could kill him... and I hated "spending time with him" after that, reading from his POV, until... oh... maybe the middle of the 3rd book. I read those when they were new... and have never re-read them... because I just can't stand TC.
As I child I read the rape that the main character, Thomas Covenant, committed after isekai-ing into his fantasy world. Fuck that noise. It was the most traumatizing thing I've ever read, it was cruel, and it was brushed aside by the author as far as I could tell. I'll never forgive the author for doing this. I'll bring this up: every. fucking. time. anyone mentions this series. The author is dead to me, as is ANY author/show runner that includes a rape scene in their narrative. Game of Thrones for instance. I stopped caring about that show when they displayed rape. I'm not sorry for going off topic, I'm deeply entrenched on this issue.
In a similar vein as Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, King Arthur is also (in a way) a chosen one. This is especially self-evident with the Sword in the Stone, "Whom should ever pull this sword from this stone shall be named King of all England" is pretty much a Chosen One Prophecy.
Yup! Plus, the mere fact that (theoretically) literally only one person could pull that sword out; even if there had been no accompanying prophecy regarding what that specifically meant around it, until it just played out that way. (Although, without the prophecy, it may have become a bit more ambiguous or a bit less self-evident at least.)
My favorite stories are the ones that include chosen one prophecies, even if the mere existence of one “spoils” the ending. Journey before destination! I recommend you read John Gwynne’s The Faithful and the Fallen series for a pretty interesting spin on the chosen one prophecy.
I agree with you. I really enjoy the chosen one trope. Not sick of it at all. Ryiria Revelations is another great series with this! I can't remember if you've read or not... if not I highly recommend!! I also have never thought about Katniss as a chosen one. Reluctant hero 100%
I read the first Ryiria Revelations ages ago! I only read the first one though, I liked it but didn't love it. My husband read all of them and has been convincing me I need to give them another go for a while 😅
I think winning cures all 😊 people always complain about tropes if they’re not done well. Avatar the last Airbender has a pretty standard elemental Magic system but it’s done so well that people don’t generally mention the fact that it’s standard. I think the Chosen One works especially well in YA and middle grade because it makes the protagonist immediately relatable. An out of their depth teenager who is thrust into confusing circumstances is super relatable to most young adults. I personally enjoy the Chosen One trope.
I'm not a fan of the Chosen One trope. I think my dislike is rooted in how it fundamentally conceives "specialness" as something foreordained rather than earned. That said, I thought your reasons for liking the trope totally made sense. Best explanation for the trope I've heard so far. There is definitely a comforting aspect to identifying with a lot of those characters. Please do more videos like these! This is great food for thought.
I remember the debate about whether or not all Chosen Ones must be prophesied going around[ a lot], years ago, too. And I believe the general consensus back then tended to be that a Chosen One did not necessarily have to be a specifically-prophesied one(even though they often were), but that they did need to be chosen by a little more than just mere default of being the main/central character of the story-if I'm not mistaken. So, like, [IF they just inexplicably have some mysteriously super-special power/ability that no others in that world have ever had before and it just happens to be exactly what that world needs for the day to be saved just coincidentally showing up exactly when that world really needs it most or all hope would be lost, OR if they just happen to be the last surviving descendant or last known member of a very particular uber-special race or bloodline or sect/etcetera/ previously thought extinct/defunct/ except for this one lone character and they're now the world's only hope because of that, OR ]if there was a sword or some other ultra-special uber!artifact or such that no others could wield(not explained by like futuristic DNA-locked weaponry or something nor by simply gaining enough power or enough training or such in general to become so elevated but theoretically anyone else could have done so too even though maybe no one else actually did so) which made that character "The Only One" who could thus defeat the big-bad &/or save the world[ using that particular thing].. then..that character might still be considered a Chosen One, even without a prophecy-and even if they weren't actually even the main/central or POV character at all. (Unless I'm misremembering it.) 🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️ 😁 idk I also remember it kinda always being much debated if "Hidden Royalty"(or whatever it's called) is really just another spin on the "Chosen One" trope, or is actually a sometimes overlapping but totally different trope altogether. 😂 I think tropes, in general, are typically more guidelines than totally unshakeable/rigid/ laws anyhow. So...I think it's a bit counterintuitive, kinda, to try and really lock tropes down too much into these restrictive little boxes or the hard-and-fast/black-&-white/ rules and such. But maybe that's just me. ^-^
The reason I don't like chosen ones is because it makes me more aware of the plot amour and plot conveniences when they happen. I understand that pretty much all stories have some measure of plot convenience around the main characters, but when its a chosen one, I'm exponentially more aware and takes a little of enjoyment out of the story for me.
But[ in my opinion] there is actually nothing about a chosen one, any more than about any other main character, that says they can't fail or be harmed or maybe even die[ and not necessarily or always resurrect afterward] in the end[ even if they don't fail]. 🤔😅🤷♀️ (but maybe that's just me/my brain)
I totally agree that special characters that often result out of Chosen One stories are not inherently a sign of bad writing. I personally don't like those type of stories. Overall I like underdog stories a lot more. And a character being the Chosen One means that even if they started out as the underdog, they will have to become important and special.
From my experience the Chosen One is quite often the underdog in the beginning, they obviously are going to survive the trials and tribulations but that is the exciting journey the author takes us along for a ride on. Their amiable friends don't always make it. We don't open books an only read the last chapter, right? "Journey before destination."
@@mgntstr I agree with you there. I think my problem is that in Chosen One Stories being a underdog is the start of the story and something the character grows out of instead of it always being a part of the story. And I disagree with your comment "Journey before destination". I want a good book to have an ending I enjoy too. Sometimes the good of the journey outweighs the bad of an ending I didn't like but I want both to be enjoyable.
@@kibert135 It is ture. It's true a bad ending will indelibly soil the journey after finish a book. I've been engrossed in 'He Who Fights With Monsters' these past couple of months, It's endings leave quite a lot to be expected... But it is not really a traditional book. After the 3rd published release I found out that really it was actually a free book online with 600+ chapters with new installments added regularly by the week. The author is just slicing it up for publishing reasons. Now I'm 2 or maybe 3 or 4 books "ahead of the curve". 😄
@@kibert135 I don't think "journey before destination" really rules out the fact that the destination or ending can also matter quite a lot. It just means that the ending doesn't change how the story was before it got there[ to that conclusion]. I don't think a Chosen One is always, for example, specifically prophesied to win or succeed though(only that they will be the only who might or the only to face x-thing or whatever); it is entirely possible for a chosen one to stay doubted or disbelieved or rooted-against by others all the way to the end, until ultimately triumphing anyhow. (I mean, evil chosen ones are also a thing, after all; among many other things.) And even in an underdog story, there usually comes a point when at least one or more other character (&/or the underdog themself) do eventually start believing the underdog can actually pull it off or succeed or whatever, or when it becomes clear that they will. But it's true enough that, too often, there is little new imagination or variety put into it.
I too love a good Chosen One story. You might recall that I'm writing my own. I enjoyed how it was handled in Mistborn, because there is some doubt throughout and it isn't made clear until the end of the trilogy how it was that that character was indeed chosen. And it is pretty obvious about Rand. I've only read the first two books (and the prequel) and will be reading the Dragon Reborn in April. I have a plan to read a Wheel of Time novel every four months (so April, August, and December) every year until I'm done with the series. I want to be able to read other things and not burn out by trying to read all 15 in a row, without breaks.
Heck yeah! The Chosen One trope gets way more crap than it deserves. Heck, tropes as a CONCEPT get more crap than they deserve-yes, certain patterns have shown up in storytelling since the paleolithic era, but that’s because they speak powerfully to humanity. You need to execute well, yes, but tropes themselves aren’t a bad thing. Also agreed that a lot of what people refer to as “Chosen One” stories are in fact “stories with a single main protagonist,” which is not the same thing. :p
Tropes are not a bad thing. *However,* we have replaced actual analysis of literary qualities with a game of Tropespotting, and *that* is a bad thing. People are starting to rank which stories they like based on which tropes they contain, rather than based on whether the book was written well. That's backwards. That would be like saying "I like this apple because it's got nitrogen in it."
@@Fishmorph (Well, unless you had some reason to really need or want that nitrogen, I suppose.🙃😅👀 ;- p Lol) That's a fair point though. I mean, tropespotting is fun and serves its purposes-but it's definitely not any replacement for actual literary analysis, which can be a different kind of fun but also important.
“The reason that clichés become clichés is that they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox of communication.” ― Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
I feel like as in a lot of stories, whether I like a Chosen One very much depends on the character. For me, a summary or book blurb of the story gets me to try a book, but it is the characters that make me finish a book. The personality/character of a Chosen One is especially important as they tend to be the central character around which a story revolves. If the Chosen One is a dull/passive/unlikeable/stupid character then it is going to be hard for me to continue to be interested in a story. I have been reading a lot of Chinese Fantasy Web Novels recently and the worse combination for any character but especially a "Chosen One" is dumb and passive. Reading the story then becomes an exercise in frustration.
I think the chosen one trope probably has it's roots in religious beliefs about the savior that shows up. I can't prove that but thats where my mind goes with the trope
@@Bookborn For sure! I mean in general religion is some that is felt so deeply. Whether it's beliefs or rejection/non belief, religion is something I think nearly everyone has some sort of feeling about it. Definitely logical for it to influence storytelling.
Another chosen one troupe that was used in a very interesting way, is Paul Atreides from Dune. He is a "chosen" one from a prophecy but the prophecy was created by people and through their own power planted the seeds for the prophecy generations before Paul is even born. I thought it was a very interesting way to do it.
Yeah, I think that he is also a great antithesis to the chose one trope. The next books did a great job by showing us the horrible things that Paul and his holy war has done to the galaxy and his son is even worse in that regard.
I also love the chosen one trope and I concur that people are fed up with it being executed poorly. I'm on my 3rd read of Mistborn and that way Sanderson handles that trope is really neat. I don't know if you anime/manga Hilary, but Naruto also tackles the trope but in a more over the tope way. Just my 2 cents. Great video as always.
I really like emphasizing the difference between the Hero (ala Joseph Campell) and the Chosen One. If you have not read Peter V Brett's Demon Cycle (the first being The Warded Man) you should it is fantastic and has a Chosen One - although admittedly the prophecy angle is a bit muted compared to the WoT
Having a prophesied Chosen One is in many ways an easy "in" for an author - instead of having to come up with reasons your character is special, you have one ready made for you with a whole weight of history behind it, and you already have direction for your story without having to go through too much agonising decision-making. I love a Chosen One trope, but sometimes it feels like it almost *has* to tie in to every other trope out there - the Chosen One has to be from a poor rural (or, recently, city-orphaned) background; has to be super powerful; has to be the only one with any real agency in their story; has to be reluctant; has to be innocent and morally commendable. Rand is a great example of this even though his characterisation still manages to feel original. Just once, I would love to see a morally grey Chosen One, or a Chosen One from a normal, happy life who has always dreamt that one day a prophecy would be about them.
I’m with you on this one - and share the same favourite examples of chosen ones! I think Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow & Thorn series has some interesting uses of the Chosen One trope too - with a very vague prophecy that several people think applies to them and a couple of big twists at the end!
I think you're absolutely right about there being nothing wrong with liking Chosen Ones. And about there being nothing wrong with liking or longing-for the specialness sometimes. 🙂
Well, I have the inside scoop on a debut adult fantasy that utilizes the Chosen One (prophesy, et al) that's coming out this fall. (If the frenetic author can get--and keep--his shit together, that is.) I chose the Chosen One (heh) before I fully grasped that I was doing so (almost 20 years ago, long before I heard much of the current disdain for the trope). But I didn't choose to use it because I wanted to have a powerful protagonist. Quite the contrary. I wanted to explore how external pressures and the expectations of others affect someone who's thrust into a leadership role. Also wanted to peel back how people tend to use religious dogma as a political lever, and how prophesy continues to morph to suit current political needs. It was fun to play around with how my protagonists' feel about the issue, too (rejection of it, to realizing playing along might have advantages, to drinking the Kool-aid, to regreting it--i.e. the Kool-aid hangover). Probably needless to say, but I like the trope, too. And I really can't think of any that I dislike. Excellent topic. Glad you're taking a look. I'll have to come back and check the comments, see how the issue plays. (Eek.)
YOU CAN DO IT. GET YOUR ISH TOGETHER and release it in the fall 🤣 All the things you list are exactly what I love in a chosen one. When you focus on the character, and if they don't immediately just become a hero, I think there is a lot to explore.
Sounds really interesting-YOU CAN DO IT[, we believe in you]! 🙂 😁 Lol _P. S. ...ignore the current disdain for the trope, there is still plenty of current love/like and appreciation for the trope as well(!!). ^-^_
@@Bookborn To be fair, though-I don't think there's anything wrong with plot focused stories either, I think not every story needs or has to be a super deeply character focused/driven/ piece(not even with a Chosen One). But, yeah, works with /deep/complex characters as a focus are typically my favorites too!😊
I love the Chosen One trope. I agree that Katniss isn’t a Chosen One, and that the only Chosen One in LOTR is Aragorn. Harry Potter is actually a really cool one though, because of the fact that it has nothing to do with Harry. It has everything to do with Voldemort. Great video! -T
Yesss that's why I've always loved the Harry Potter one! It's a prophecy that has absolutely guided and affected Harry's life...but really, it's not even about him. That's the perfect amount of twist.
I like that you constrain the concept at the start. Calling things by the right name is a prerequisite for good discussion. My favourite chosen one is Paul in Dune because of the depth and complications of his story. First off, he is a premature chosen one that wasn't supposed to be. Because of his mother's insubordination in birthing a son instead of a daughter the Kwisatz Haderach arrives a generation too early. So is he the real Kwisatz Haderach? Both the Bene Gesserit and he has to struggle with his untimely arrival. He grows up largely outside Bene Gesserit control and is further complicated by his contact with the Fremen. He doesn't turn out exactly as the sisterhood intended. But is that because he is a flawed Kwisatz Haderach or because the idea itself was flawed or its ramifications misunderstood? It makes for an interesting story. If you have anything to say about Dune, please make a video about it!
Traveler's Gate by Will Wight has a fun twist on the trope. But it's crazy to me how people will push the definition of a trope as if it's some kind of buzzword.
I think people criticise tropes all too easily. Basically, people become CONVINCED that some literary analysis tools they learned in classes are the summit of assessing literary quality. It's sad, bc literature is kinda... bad. Dry academic consideration and self importance. Meanwhile, storytelling is FUN. Its something we do as humans. I'm fairly sure Pratchett had more than one quote to this effect. (where the rising ape meets the falling angel, springs to mind) Tropes are almost built into us. Foundations upon which our entire concepts of identity and category are built. A trope is only as good or bad as the person employing it. I've made this defence MANY times over "Mary Sue" tropes. Mainly because the accusation of BEING that trope causes immediately denied almost every time. But the trope itself is neutral and the criticism is FAR more about how it is being used. (People EFFECTIVELY level the exact same criticism when labelling something "a power fantasy" and such things are WILDLY popular!) So it is with "chosen one" themes. I don't find them particularly compelling on a PERSONAL level, as I'm something of a nihilist... BUT they speak to a great deal of human experience. Who HASN'T experienced imposter syndrome? These tropes let an author explore how people react to the biggest stresses imaginable. Being in charge, being relied upon, being *responsible* Things we can ALL appreciate and underlying it the trope offers affirmation that even those *literally* chosen for a great destiny can feel the same way. I'd say that's powerful for storytelling, myself.
I mean, I disagree that literature is entirely all dry or self-important. I also don't personally think insulting one thing is ever a good way of praising some other thing. But I do agree that many people often judge tropes too harshly/too dismissively. As you say: even if a particular thing or trope isn't your own personal cup of tea, that doesn't mean it's completely without value...even if it IS perhaps completely worthless, to you, specifically.
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Just going on my experience, judging "acclaimed literature" and the people who seem to prefer it. Give me something lowbrow and fun every time. Steinbeck and Atwood were an *absolute* drag to study. I far preferred Shakespeare, even having to endure the drone of teenagers trying to read aloud. (I was instead mocked for making too much effort to "perform" when reading :P)
I think Chosen Ones remain more common and popular in YA because younger people tend to be more likely to just be perfectly okay with seeing the "same"/similar/ thing repeated over and over and over again. If they liked it. They actually WANT to see more of it-they don't as much want to see something totally new or different; or, if they do, just the slightest little differences can be enough to change it up for them without losing the familiarity or the comfort of that 'it' factor/thing they love to see. (Or .. At least, that's how it was for me, when I was younger. But, to be honest, I don't think I ever entirely grew out of that and I don't think I ever completely lacked the appreciation for totally new/different things either...I think, for me, it's really just that eventually I had gained more things amongst those "same"/similar/ things I know & like than I had before. Lol) But maybe that's just me. ^-^
I wouldn’t include Dune as a series that uses the “chosen one” trope. My reason? Paul never really accomplishes what he is supposed to do and sends the universe into a tail spin. Leto II only sets the pieces for the “chosen one” to accomplish what is necessary. With that being said the “prophecy,” in this case the product of the Bene Gesserit program, only acts as a set piece to nudge along the actions of another that wasn’t anticipated to solve a problem that was never anticipated.
I def think it’s an unusual use of the chosen one, but as there is a prophecy I think it still fits. Honestly I think unique spins on the trope is something that makes it the most interesting!
This is only tangentially related, really ... but _( since you did mention Mary Sues a little(even though I know this is a Chosen One NOT Mary Sue discussion/vid), and I have myself just been thinking a lot about Sues & the history of the term at least so far as I remember and digging a little more into its actual origins/history/ lately. )_ Supposedly, the Mary Sue trope actually arose kind of naturally too, even before it was given a name. The fact that it already existed and was significantly prevalent in fics submitted to fanzines and such way back in the 1970s or whatever was in fact exactly why the [in]famous fanfic that gave the trope its name was ever even written in the first place, specifically as a satire about this noticeable trend's existence. And there has pretty much always been debate ever since then about what exactly is or isn't actually a Mary Sue[ or a 'Mary Sue story'] or not too-as well as about whether or not a character[ or story] found guilty of being one is actually always a bad thing. (In the late 1990s, apparently someone even wrote an essay or something once about supposedly '150 years of Mary Sues' in fiction; including alleged Canon{non-fanfic}!Sues, some dating back all the way even at least into fiction of the 1800s, or so.) I personally remember, back in the earlier 2000s; sometime between like 2004 and 2012[ or so], there being a lot of active debate going around online at that time about whether or not all self-inserts were Mary Sues & whether all Mary Sues were actually self-inserts or not, and whether or not a Sue character was even possible or could actually even exist at all outside of fanfiction in canon/original material. Which I think simultaneously gave rise both to my personal school of thought that not all Sues are self-inserts / not all self-inserts are Sues AND to this persistent theory which I do not personally ascribe to at all that being O.P.(or Overpowered) is one-of the- if not *THE* -distinguishing/defining factor of a Mary Sue(neither of which everyone ever always agreed if was true or was untrue), followed later on by the currently commonplace idea that a Mary Sue is "too perfect"//"too good at everything or anything she does" &/or "too [super!]'special'" / "too much the center of attention"; as people attempted to define the concept of Mary Sues in general[ and/or in a way that didn't just condemn all OCs in fanfiction altogether] but could maybe still apply even to characters in actually original/canon fiction too, thus justifying the extreme distaste and condemnation for Sues[ in fics] as actually " 'bad' writing " and not just personal subjective preferences either for or against those particular kinds of characters/stories/ in general... BUUT if you really look at the original satirical fanfic itself[ parodying all the other fics that had a particular kind of writing/character or story], it's really not being either a self-insert or overpowered that makes a Sue a Sue, nor is it really just being too perfect or too good at whatever she does or even necessarily being the center of attention(since a Sue could in fact be EITHER the character given to helming the ship without the rank or training or experience necessary for it simply because they're the center of the captain's attention/affection/ OR the character completely ignored unnoticed in the background even whilst they easily save the day until saving the day wins everyone over to love them and despair at their tragic/self-sacrificial/ demise)-it's the way that Mary Sue unjustifiably[ bordering on nonsensically] affects the story and/or the other characters around her, for no real good reason, not sufficiently enough explained[ or justified] even just by being the main or POV character alone[ and at the expense of the other characters or story overall]. And, yes, it does border a tricky tricky line between what is actually a Mary Sue versus what is in fact just "The Only One" who can save the day because they're either a Chosen One or just the primary central character of the entire story in general(Much like the 'Chosen One' trope /can/does too); _especially_ when talking about Sues[ or potential Sues] in canon/original fiction, and not just in specifically fanfiction. Among other things. ((Which is[ I think] likely precisely why the term has been such a big and or heated topic of debate/discussion for well over 20 years now, with no signs of really ever slowing/cooling/ down, at this rate.)) Since just about anyone can have a vastly varying and totally subjective interpretation of what is or isn't "justifiable"/"unjustifiable" within a fictional work, and the original coiner of the term herself actually seems to have considered it an exclusively fanfiction specific issue..where it was really only even an issue at all because most people read fanfiction primarily for the canon characters and not for the original characters, regardless of who the POV character is or not, so it was often a problem to readers if your fanfiction was about an original character exploring a particular pre-existing fictional world rather than being so much if at all about the existing canon characters exploring new plotlines/worlds[/etc.]-but also because it often enough tended to stem specifically from /immature/inexperienced writing that just hadn't quite really learned yet how to fully balance &/or flesh everything out. I kind of fell out of active participation in fanfic and fandom spheres, in general, for a while[ in the later 2010s] though; so I didn't really keep up with the Mary Sue discussion//debate/ after that..and because of that I was actually a bit surprised when the term [re]surfaced at all specifically surrounding things like Star Wars(Rey) or the WoT TV series, because I seem to remember people[ at least the ones in the circles I used to frequent] commonly leaning more toward the idea that a character couldn't be a Mary Sue at all outside of a fanfiction specific context. (Which is why, as I remenber it, the debate was also very much wrapped-up in whether or not anyone should ever write fanfics with Original-Characters in them at all; almost entirely regardless of if they were Mary Sues or not.) But, obviously, that has changed-or, perhaps, was always so[ just outside my own personal circles] unbeknownst to me. Much of the timeline/debate/evolution of Mary Sue is actually chronicled on Fanlore's _'Mary Sue'_ page, and on their _'Canon Sue'_ page and their page for the *_'Trekkie's Tale'_* satire [fan]fic itself, with reference sources included/cited and directly linked wherever possible...including an interview with the original coiner of the term & creator of the [in]famous fanfic herself. (tvtropes also has a "Common Mary Sue Traits" page, among other Mary Sue pages.) For anyone curious and/or not already well-informed. But that's basically 50yrs of information compiled/summarized in one place, so brace yourself and buckle in for a ton of reading if you do dive down that rabbit hole. ((Definitely recommend people at least reading up on how the original coiner of the term defined Mary Sues in general herself and why she wrote the fic that coined the term though.! ^-^)) I personally remember fic writers back in those days[ during the beginning of the 2000s] being hesitant sometimes to even write Original-Characters[ especially female ones] in their fanfics at all too, and sometimes even being afraid to openly admit to even just being female writers in general, specifically because of all the _extreme_ wank that was out there largely or tangentially surrounding Mary Sues[ and original characters or AU/AltReality!fics versus the 'canon as absolute word of god' type fics] and/or female pleasure or (personal-fantasy)wish-fulfillment and such in general. A near-perfect successor to published authors printing their work under neutral or opposite-gender pen names(especially depending on their publishing genre), really. And I don't recall most people, at that point, even knowing or discussing at all where the term "Mary Sue" had actually even first been coined; it was kind of just one of many fandom terms that simply "were", in general, but just happened to be the one which everyone was arguing the absolute most about what it even was or was-not & if it was actually bad or good. Nowadays, nothing really seems to have changed-it's just gone more "mainstream" and larger-scale, extending now beyond just the mere fanfic niche/sphere alone. At least, with regards to the Mary Sue debates. (But not per se with writers being openly female, which is fortunately pretty much just completely typical now; although I think female-pleasure &/or [personal-fantasy ]wish-fulfillment in general is still a bit more of a work-in-progress sometimes.) Mary Sue is a messy-messy term(in my opinion), with a messy/loaded/ history. It started out[ I believe] supposedly with the best of intentions, simply aiming to help writers improve the depth/dimension & nuance of their characters and stories for the maximum possible /enjoyment/appreciation of readers, but [I think ]it has turned sour and basically just warped into this massive near-blind!hatedom now more than ever. I feel like it _could_ be capable of holding constructive merit(s), in some cases; but, as it is, I think it largely isn't constructive anymore at all and most times would almost be better served deleted altogether from the collective consciousness of everyone everywhere.😅😅🙃😁😁😁 Loll _(((if any of that even made any coherent sense^^ Loll)))_
I wonder if people think Kvothe (from Name of the Wind) is a chosen one type of story. I know people call him a Gary Stu all the time (which I see why but also don’t agree with) he constantly feels like he is the internal force driving stuff forward. Chosen ones usually have lots of external forces telling them how they are chosen I think
If you have a chance, read P. C. Hodgell's Kencyrath series. I love those books, eagerly awaiting the next one. You can spoil yourself on tvtropes about how well she does tropes in her own way, or have the reviews on Goodreads back me up on how great a series it is. 😊
Lord of the Rings: Aaragorn is definitely the chosen one; however, the true hero in the story are Samwise Gamgee. Frodo would never had made it into Mount Doom where the ring was ultimately destroyed without Sam carrying him there. I think Sam carried Frodo in a spiritual sense throughout the book (books if you want to go by how Lord of the Rings was published). He then literally carried Frodo that last bit when Frodo couldn't continue.
It's interesting that all the examples you gave of great chosen one stories have some sort of a twist to it. In my opinion, it shows that the chosen one is a great trope to base some sort of twist or subversion of expectation upon, but boring if you play it straight.
I think the Chosen One is disliked for 2 reasons: 1) it leads to what I call "discontinuity," in which the CO's abilities are unjustified or over the top, so awesome that he himself doesn't understand them, and the reader doesn't either. Luke Skywalker's ability to pilot an X-wing has always been dangerously close to this line. When I was a kid I always raised this objection, but as an adult I'm willing to let it go. 2) the second objection to the CO results from a postmodernist and rather junior high level style of criticism that simply wants there to be no good guys. Obviously that's stupid, and the idea that we need to tear apart all the good things in the world to make the world a better place is completely backwards and juvenile. Best current CO story: The Black Witch Chronicles by Laurie Forest, particularly because everyone knows who the CO ought to be, but she ends up becoming a rebel and not doing what she's supposed to do as the CO.
But luke isn’t a chosen one, Anakin is! Although Anakin’s skill I think is also tentative lol but since he turns into a villain I think it gets overlooked. But I agree that I like stories with some straight up heroes. I don’t mind if they aren’t all gray 😅
This is kind of amusing[ & interesting] to me because I think typically it is young people who are actually more willing to overlook inexplicable power/skill/ levels and grown-ups who are much quicker to criticize or condemn something for imbalanced skill/power-leveling or its implausible-ness[ or such]. 🙂
@@Bookborn Luke isn't a prophesied one, per se... but it's always been argued if it was truly Anakin or actually Luke['s influence acting on Vader] who really brought balance to the force. And Luke always had very much in common with Chosen Ones since he not only had significance as sort of "hidden royalty"(as secretly force-sensitive/Vader's son) but also as basically the last force sensitive person in the entire galaxy who wasn't a sith[ or old enough to be pretty much on their death-bed already] and the literal only person capable doing things that pretty much no one else in the entire universe can do[ despite the fact that once upon a time there were more/others who could too] no matter if he was "plucked from obscurity" intentionally or purely by chance/coincidence & or in fact perhaps even because secretly maybe the force and/or destiny was at work making it pretty much inevitable all along-at least right up until "there is another", which still never actually really panned out into much anyhow, especially when not counting either the former(legends) or current(disney) expanded universe continuities which didn't always exist; and the goodguys AND the badguys both kept setting their sights on him as if anyone getting Luke on their side was super important and covetable/desirable[ could turn-the-tide / tip-the-scales type] outcome OR something in dire need by either side of being blocked/prevented from aligning with the other side or whatever quite specifically in order to either directly undermine or bolster the rebellion's hope-like people were kinda just "sensing" how potentially powerful or important Luke was pretty much left and right. I can definitely appreciate why you still don't see Luke as a chosen one yourself, but I can also definitely see why some people do[ or have] though. I don't think it really changes or affects much, either way, whether he was or wasn't though. But, yeah, I'm with you completely though about not always needing every hero/story to be gray at all! ☺️🙂😊😁💖
I couldn't very well talk about my impressions of Star Wars as a child and include the prequels. I was born before The Empire Strikes Back was released. I'd rather pretend the prequels just don't exist. Just because they say Anakin Skywalker was "THE Chosen One" in the movie doesn't mean he actually was. The original trilogy was a perfectly well wrapped-up story. "Anakin" is backstory and never needed his own movie.
@@JoelAdamson Fair enough. 🙂 But, at the same time, the original trilogy never technically "needed" to exist at all in the first place either. The earth or human life in general wouldn't have ceased to exist without the OT's creation. But George Lucas wanted to create it, and so he did; but then he wanted to quit making it for a while, until [eventually ]he wanted to create the PT as well, so he did all of that too. Everyone is entitled to whatever opinions/thoughts/feelings[/etc.] they have about any of it. But at the end of the day, I don't think whether or not it was absolutely needed really gets to decide what creative content any creator does or doesn't[ or should] get to make, it really only matters that it was their content and they wanted to create it-for better or for worse. I actually completely agree that characters believing/claiming Anakin was "THE Chosen One" in the movies definitely does not necessarily guarantee that it was actually true, though. ^-^ (And I do actually have my own share of movies/books/games or such, in various franchises, that I just pretend don't or aren't personally considered canon in my own mind myself too; so I totally get/respect that impulse.😅😁☺️😊😂)
Great video! Often I hear that this trope is the worst but I never hear good reasons why. Maybe it’s because it’s over used but I can’t think of a property that I really hated the use of the trope. Though I don’t consider myself well versed in the fantasy genre. Maybe if I read more in the genre I would feel the same as others.
I wonder if it's more overused currently in YA? Haven't been reading much YA recently, so that's totally baseless, but just an idea. I think it may also be a symptom of people labeling all hero's as chosen ones.
The thing is, I don't think people necessarily have to dislike the use of something in order to get sick of seeing it and start wanting to see different things instead-and then it's not so much the thing itself they hate as they really just end up resenting the fact that they keep seeing it even when they don't want to instead of seeing other things like they want. That seems to be a large chunk of the "Chosen One" trope hatedom that I've personally seen in people over the years. 🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️ (but I could always be wrong) Lol
@@LEOrgill I've encountered a fair lot of people before who basically seem to think of Chosen Ones AS Mary Sues, and kind of[ to a lesser extent maybe] vice-versa, too actually.👀 😅😅 Lol🤣
“Chosen one” stories aren’t what I’m looking for when I look to read Fantasy at the moment, however I do love a good “chosen one” story. ASOIF kinda ruined me when I was in my teens and picked up the first book in the early 00’s. I didn’t know fantasy stories could be written that way. Up until then I read HP, LotR and WoT. So yeah that first book blew my mind. Storm of Swords completely blew my mind and now I lean more towards the grim dark side, if the book isn’t authored by Sanderson lol. However, what I do hate now is that once GoT show became a cultural phenomenon (alongside with the Walking Dead)…the anyone can die trope has entered the scene, especially with shows, and now it’s been further bastardized into the “fakeout death” trope. Thankfully this is only a real problem in cinema, WoT season 1 I’m looking at you..but I’ll take something like Malazan over any chosen one series every time at this point in my life. One thing HP and WoT did extremely well was give their chosen ones a sense of dying. Spoilers: I thought Harry would die at the end and was kinda disappointed lol. As for Rand, I knew how his story would end, but how he got there and the ending was perfect for me. WoT also had so many great characters that weren’t “safe”. When it came to LoTR, although you say it isn’t a chosen one book, I love the series but at no point did I have a fear for any of the characters. Cheers.
Yeah, for me. The chosen one needs to be prophesized, or a slighted heir. Or the only one who can fulfil a particular role. I have to agree, Katniss isn't a chosen one. She wasn't destined to overthrow Snow, or District 1. People rallied behind her, but it could've been any champion. I like the difference between Harry Potter (with a chosen one protagonist), and Fantastic Beasts, with Newt absolutely not being a chosen one. I just wish there was a more coherent story behind it.
But the way _Fantastic Beasts_ kind of just switches about like changing winds does kind of exactly mirrors Newt's whole entire personality and philosophy / approach to life, too. In a way.
DUNE is the best chosen one story imo. It's such a great use of showing how a chosen one style person can become galvanized and harmful to it's society.
I disagree with you with regards Bilbo and Frodo. While you are right about there not being specific prophecies about them there are some pretty solid implications that Eru Ilúvatar took a hand in manipulating their involvement and roles in destroying the ring, so they are quite literally chosen by (their in world) god to help save the world. I agree with mostly everything else though, there's nothing wrong with a chosen one trope done well. But then the same can be said for absolutely any trope, it's really only when they are done badly the problems with tropes arise.
The Chosen One is something where people agree the concept is bad, but can't think of any stories that use it badly; at least not any stories that are not bad in so many other ways that this specific one does not matter.
I always thought 2 Jedi and 2 Sith was bringing balance to the force. So from a certain point of view killing all but two Jedi was bringing balance to the force.
That's not the balance. The Sith, by nature, cannot be in balance with the Force. They don't live in balance with the Force, they force it do what they want. The Jedi are supposed to live in balance with the Force, but lost sight of that by the time of the Fall of the Republic, and became too rigid in their ways.
I always thought that the desire to bring balance to the force was pretty stupid. The Jedi had the upper hand... why would they WANT to be equal to the Sith? Always seemed stupid to me... Sure enough... Anakin "brings balance" by killing the Younglings...
@@Nyet-Zdyes The conflict between the Jedi and the Sith wasn't really about balance. The Sith bend the Force to their will, and thus, they can never be IN balance with the Force, because it isn't a concern of theirs. The Sith path is about pure power. The Jedi, on the other hand, try to live in balance with the Force, which is why they never try to attain things such as immortality and the like. They see the Force as a living entity, and a fundamental part of the nature of the galaxy. The issue of the end of the Old Republic, is that the Jedi had become too dogmatic, too bound to old tradition, with a narrower and narrower definition of being in balance with the Force, while at the same time, becoming an arm of the Republic government, taking them away from the balance of the Force. We see this in the fact that they considered a 9-year-old "too old" to join, or the prohibition against loving anyone.
@@dragonstryk7280 I didn't do any but the first 4 books to come out, so the only "lore" I got about "returning balance" was the stuff in the prequel trilogy... which just didn't make any sense to me, I always saw Anakin killing the Younglings as "returning the balance" by "evening" the numbers... Thanks for the explanation.
Two different definitions[ or 'senses' / usages] of the word: "balance". One meaning = 'equal[ity]', 'level[-ness]', or 'even[-ness]'. The other meaning = 'peace' or 'harmony'/'unity'/'one'ness. (Because...English/language/ is great, like that! 🤣🤣😶🙃😅😁😂)
Great video! Speaking of the original chosen one, you might also consider that fiction imitates real life, and that there are nonfiction sources with prophecies and heroes selected. For instance, Noah was chosen out of his generation to save humanity, although there were no prophecies of that. Same with David, chosen by Samuel to become the king of Israel, only achieving that much later. Obviously Jesus himself could be an example, with plenty of prophecies leading up to his ministry, but the "choosing" part is a little strange there, depending on your beliefs. These all predate King Arthur, and the Jewish Scriptures predate the Greek era.
Yeah I get a little iffy talking about religion as literature, for obvious reasons, but it's true that these types of stories have been around since the beginning.
The issues I have with Chosen Ones is that sometimes I don't want to know how the book/series will end 20 pages in after being introduced to the Chosen One and the Great Evil. They also tend to start reluctant and whiney. "But I have to go I into Taschi and pick up some power converters!"
Luke isn't a chosen one though, he's just an idiot in the beginning 🤣 I appreciate Luke as a hero though, I feel like he's under appreciated. Dude is just being a teen. Yeah, I think that concern though is why an author has to work hard with it. Either the end battle has to have a twist, OR the journey has to be interesting enough that the destination being somewhat known is ok.
@@Bookborn I disagree that Luke isn't a Chosen One; and I don't really think him being an idiot or just being a teenager really rules that out at all either...but I can accept that, if you do believe a chosen one always has to be a specifically prophesied[ or at least divinely-chosen/predestined/] chosen one, he doesn't quite make that cut; and fully respect everyone's right(s) to define things slightly differently from one person to another. Lol Completely agree the author does have to put a little more thought/care/effort or such into it, overall, when there is a Chosen One though. For sure.😊
Here's the thing.... for me, I continually entertain the idea that [even when I have good reason to suspect a particular story/plot/situation/whatever will pan out in a particular kinda way ]I never really know for absolutely sure until I see how it ends, so until I do there is then technically always a chance that it could end in tragic failure(or something) instead. 🤣🤣🤣 So, my own brain can keep it interesting exploring every possible what-if scenario I can think of, almost regardless of what's actually in the story or not. (But that's just a me thing 😁) Lolll ^^
I often feel that the majority of 'chosen ones' prophecies really struggle to justify their inclusion particularly as a lot of them would function just as well if it wasn't included. As they inherently both make the story more predictable and take a lot of agency away from the characters (It feels like the hero must destroy the dark lord or what ever because the plot tells them to and not because their character wants to do it). I know that authors try to add motivation for the main character to fulfil their prophecy after they have already added a prophecy into the story. However this mostly feels like their putting the cart before the horse. I think a chosen one prophecy really needs to include a lot more than just a twist on their own trope to justify this. It really needs to add an aspect to the narrative in its own right. The othering that always bothers me about this trope is that an accurate prophecy of any kind automatically means that the story is taking place in a deterministic universe. I know I'm a nerd who obsesses over small details but this barely ever addressed in any stories but it implies Harry and Nevil could have both ran off to Portugal and spent their days sunning them selves and still beaten Voldemort. This feels like its the case for the vast majority of prophecies focused plots. The only 2 times were I have seen this is addressed at all by the author is WOT and dune. While I don't love either of these francizes I excepted that the 'Chosen one' was necessary for the stories the author was trying to tell. A lot of stories like HP would have been a lot better without it. Particularly as in the HP example Harry felt special well before the prophecy was introduced, well over half way through the series. My favourite example of a prophecy is the Lego Movie of all things because its wasn't true. It was made up by a character to influence other characters which apart from being a good twist it allowed for almost all the opportunities of a chosen one story with none of the baggage which comes along with it.
Willow is one of the best "the Chosen One" stories. The baby is born that will bring the downfall of the evil queen Bavmorda...and she does, by being in a disappearing pig trick performed by a struggling farmer.
I find nothing to disagree with here! I am 100% on board with your definition of a Chosen One. In order for a character to be a "Chosen One" their mere existence must be presaged in some way. Katie's is not a Chosen One (capital letters), she is a chosen one (lowercase letters), chosen AFTER her entry to the plot. Same with Bilbo. The Ring didn't choose him BEFORE entering Goblin Town. The Ring chooses Bilbo when it is found, AFTER Bilbo runs into the "plot of the Ring". Some variations on the Chosen One trope that have some potential (even if I haven't seen it do e well yet) includes a story with a Chosen One but a different character is the primary POV character. Another is "What if the Chosen One fails" and dies in the process? What then?! Excellent essay.
I disagree that a Chosen One necessarily must be chosen _before_ the start of the story-especially if it is remotely possible that it may in some way still have been inevitable or destined to happen, I don't think we always have to see it already happened[ or even loudly(or quietly) trumpeted ahead of time for all to know was coming] for it to count. But that's just me. I agree about the interesting possible variations on the Chosen One trope though! If only we were to see those variants done more often, we'd be sure to get some done-well versions of those eventually! 😊 Lol
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Perhaps I should say "before the inciting event" rather than before the story. But even that comes with caveats. As well, there will always be exceptions. But that is a general rule that works in my brain. I would very much like to read (or even write) a story where the POV character only occasionally encounters the Chosen One, and not always as an ally. Perhaps the POVC would be slightly skeptical of "The One". That would be such a fun perspective shift!
@@kythian True, true. (And far be it from me to tell you how to classify what is or isn't qualifiable as a Chosen One to you! 😊) But I was going to say, I don't really think they would necessarily have to be chosen[ or at least certainly not revealed as such] even at or before the inciting incident either though.🤣🤣 Do/write/ it-I for one, at least, would definitely read that too! (And it's funny you should say that, I don't remember if I said it before or not, but I was literally just thinking at some point earlier while perusing the comments here how a Chosen One totally wouldn't necessarily have to be believed-in or immediately accepted by the other characters at all.🙀🤭💖 LOL)
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Right! I think examining that skepticism of the Chosen One from a "normal" person's perspective could be a thought-provoking exercise. What does it mean to be told of the Chosen One's existence? How would that revelation impact the character’s world view? Would it challenge that world view? Support it? So many questions!
I think, because both Chosen Ones and Mary Sues have mainstream popularity/notoriety, it's kind of inevitable that there is both an oversaturation of characters of that type in general _and_ an overuse of just slapping the label of those things onto anything even slightly close to them, even when it's not really actually that-thing at all.
I mean I think in some ways it’s even more fun in a video game lol because you’re playing as the character. I mean I enjoyed Skyrim anyway (I’ll admit I didn’t end up finishing it though my completionism bogged me down too much 😂)
@@Bookborn hey honestly I am in the same boat as you with that game so I agree but it is funny how in video games you/the character you are playing as always seems to be able to single handedly save the day just in general lol
No, for whatever reason I sort of "missed" those when I was young (too into Harry Potter and Artemis Fowl). But I plan on reading them with my son when he's old enough so I can experience it
@@Nyet-Zdyes Okay, but what someone considers "bad writing"[ or "not"-bad] may not always be exactly the same from one person to another. And that's true, pretty much regardless of whether we mean the literal technical writing or if we actually just mean the storytelling overall-but *_especially_* if speaking of the storytelling aspect(s).
@@Bookborn Of course bad writing needs defending. Good writing is rarely attacked. It's only when the writing is questionable does somebody say, "Hey, wait, why did you do that? Why did you make that choice? What was this supposed to be?"
@@Bookborn (Maybe they meant Joe Abercrombie is an exception to them liking a chosen one....like, _because_ he *doesn't* write them, but they still like them an Abercrombie written character anyhow?🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️😅😁 idk 👀 ☺️😂😸)
The chosen one isn't an inherently bad trope, I just don't think it adds anything. Like most any story that has it could just be told without it, and it would make the story more intriguing with the eventual outcome less known.
I see what you're saying(and there is some truth to it)... but, sometimes, the foretelling actually IS the entire story/intrigue, too, and it really wouldn't be the same story without it.
True. I think many people don't know what archetypes are, though; most people really only know what stereotypes are, and many people don't even see the distinction between stereotypes or archetypes and cliches either. 😅😅🙃☺️ Loll
I always hated the Chosen One trope. I really dislike it when there is one person (most of time it’s a dude) who somehow more important than everyone else. But tbh almost all of my favorite stories have a chosen one. So, I guess I‘m a hypocrite. :D
Anakin shouldn't have been a Chosen One. There was no reason for it in the narrative, as just having him be strong in the Force would have been more than enough. It doesn't really serve anything, and nothing at all gets mentioned of it after the PT. Luke wasn't a Chosen One. He was the one Obi-Wan thought could stop Vader, but that wasn't a prophecy, it was just what he believed to be true. In Harry Potter, a ton is made of Harry's chosen status. He has a connection with Voldemort, and we even see that they can start to read one another through their shared link. Nothing that anyone liked about the PT in Star Wars was dependent on Anakin being Jedi Jesus. It was more a distraction from a better story that could have been shown.
One could say that Anakin _was_ the Chosen One, perhaps, specifically *because* he was in fact just [exceptionally ]'strong in the Force'. (One could say that Luke was a Chosen One for, basically the same reason.) I thought something about Vader having been meant to bring balance to the force was actually mentioned once or twice even in the original trilogy though? 🤔😅😁😁 Luke wasn't exactly _just_ 'the one Obi-Wan thought could stop Vader' though... I mean, there was more than just Obi-Wan who put their eggs all in that basket, believing Luke capable of greatness/standing-against-Vader/ or such. And you're forgetting to really consider *_why_* it was that Obi-Wan believed Luke could stop Vader in the first place-Luke had something within him(force-sensitivity) which basically nobody else in the entire universe had[ anymore], which pretty much almost-literally made him "The Only One" who could even possibly /stand-against/stop Vader. And Luke did have a very particular connection with Vader, specifically, too; being relatives, as they are, and all-and also being able to sense each other/ the force within each other/ in a way that few if any others can. ((But whether it was prophesied or not is only relevant IF you accept Bookborn's personal requisite that a Chosen One *_must_* have been foretold or chosen specifically by prophecy-which, not everyone actually does. ..Not to mention the fact that it's actually not completely impossible that Anakin _wasn't_ necessarily even actually the one that the prophecy had ever referred to at all[, it may have referred to someone else and simply no one ever truly realized or figured that out], and we could never actually know it either way; especially not if you don't treat every claim or statement spoken in a work of fiction as absolutely word-of-god truth, or if you treat the claims and beliefs of fictional characters [as at very least _possibly_ unreliable ]much like the ones of real-life persons. Lol)) But even though I'm actually not much of a Harry Potter fan, I did think that particular aspect was pretty nifty too. ( I don't think you should really speak in such broad generalizations though.... you have literally zero way of knowing what _everyone_ did or didn't actually like about the prequel trilogy or not. You can really only speak for yourself, and maybe for what you have or haven't personally heard before from others thus far; but it's extremely unlikely[ maybe even impossible] that you have heard from literally everyone. And what would or wouldn't have been a "better" story is an entirely subjective thing, too; pretty much any person could find totally different things "better", or even NOT-"better" at all, than someone else does. )
Yes I always feel like I have to tell everyone that Luke isn’t a chosen one, he’s a hero, it’s very different. I def think him being born of the force is weird and unnecessary. But I’ll admit I like the prophecy of bringing balance to the force. That phrase is a staple of Star Wars now I feel like!
@@Bookborn It gets a little murkier, in certain cases(like Luke's), if you don't actually think prophecy specifically is the necessary or defining distinction; or if you personally question how accurately that particular prophecy necessarily was or wasn't interpreted for sure in Star Wars canon(like since you don't actually have to believe that canon characters always know or are completely right anout everything or such). But, apart from that, I do actually agree with you. 🙂🤍
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 In fact, he still wasn't a Chosen One. Other Force Sensitives existed, they were just getting hunted down and killed, or turned to the Empire. There were also other Jedi out there who had nothing to do with Like during the OT. Asohka for one, Grogu is a other in the current canon. That's leaving out the original EU entirely, with characters like Horus C'Boath. Luke isn't Chosen, not by prophecy, and not even by power. That gap's now widens with every new Star War characters. Luke wasn't even all that GOOD with the Force until RotJ, and he had to spend a lot of time training Again, Luke is not a Chosen One. As Yoda said, "No, there is another". Ben might have gone all-in, but Yoda had a side bet.
@@dragonstryk7280 just to be clear... I never said my personal stance is that Luke actually was [for absolutely sure..or even at all..]a Chosen One-I'm really only saying that I can understand BOTH why some people interpret Luke as being one AND why some people interpret Luke as not being one at all. Regardless of who actually does or doesn't agree with either stance. I'm not saying your own way of looking at it needs to change. I'm just saying that different people might have different ways of looking at it themself, or different reasons for looking at particular things in a certain way[ and/or NOT in a certain way] that differ from your own...and I think that's actually alright. I think it's actually okay for different people to have slightly different ways of defining what a Chosen One actually is or isn't. And I think it's okay for different people to feel differently about which character is or isn't exactly even a Chosen One at all. So, I think it's fine if some people think a Chosen One must be prophesied first, while other people feel a Chosen One really need only be somehow destined or fated to be or do a particular thing that no one else can or will do/be..&/or need only be the only one with a certain kind of power or ability..OR/AND need only be the only one who can and will actually do a particular largely-significant thing at all[ in general]. If the prophecy[ about bringing balance to the force] which people think was about Anakin was actually about Luke, then *LUKE* (not Anakin) would be the Chosen One by prophecy. ((And there were plenty of people who actually believed that this was in fact the case, at least back when the prequel trilogy first came out.)) The EU may have retconned Luke out of being a Chosen One eventually, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't one[ in the original trilogy before that retconning happened]-and that doesn't mean that every person has to agree the retcon or EU!continuity is actually relevant to whether Luke is or isn't a Chosen One within the movies in general or within the original trilogy specifically. (Nevermind the fact that there are plenty of people who don't know the expanded universe at all-who ONLY know the movies.) The EU did not exist when the original trilogy was made. Within the original trilogy itself(not merely 'in the same era the OT was set as occurring during'), there were no other Force-sensitive or Jedi characters other than Luke and his mentors[ who die &/or were much too ill and advanced in age to save the day themselves], and nothing that was invented later on in the EU had any influence whatsoever on what role or purpose exactly Luke actually served or was intended to serve within the original trilogy. It doesn't really matter if later "canon" installments declared that 'oh actually there were lots of other force-sensitives around then too just elsewhere no one ever knew or saw them', because there is actually nothing shown literally within the original trilogy itself to specifically support that claim; people are free to view or interpret Luke's status as Chosen One[ or not] independently of what does or doesn't exist in the EU or outside of the original trilogy if they want, different people are going to feel differently about how relevant or mandatory versus optional the EU continuity actually is[ or should-be] or not, and I think that's actually okay. In the original trilogy itself... [ _BEFORE_ anything in the EU was invented/canonized ] Luke was very much presented like the 'long-lost-hidden-heir' / 'last-of-his-kind' / 'plucked from obscurity and elevated into status by an inciting-incident & or wise old magical mentor' / 'only-hope-for-the-future' that Chosen Ones[ like King Arthur] typically are. Yoda telling Luke that The Force is strong in Luke's family and urging Luke to pay all he knows forward, specifically as a precursor to revealing that “there is another Skywalker”, could be interpreted as Yoda actually reinforcing Luke as the Chosen One meant to liberate the galaxy and/or secure the future of the Jedi[ perhaps even specifically by teaching the ‘other Skywalker’ all that Luke knows]-not necessarily meaning that Yoda had a side bet[ who maybe could have come in and been the one who defeated Vader &/or Palpatine instead of Luke], at all. (But the other Skywalker was actually Leia, although originally meant to be a whole new character entirely at least before that was retconned when the original trilogy was concluded, and the only time we ever see Leia use The Force within the original trilogy is when she senses that Luke needs help and knows where he is; which could easily be seen as just Luke using the force to reach out to and influence her as it could have been seen as her actually using the force herself[-at least, it could have been, before the Legends and then later Disney EU “canon” made it clear that it definitely was her; which different people either may or may-not agree should-be or is actually even canon at all]. But, either way, that could also possibly be interpreted as happening specifically because of how extra-super-special and important Luke is specifically as the Chosen One himself too. And the fact that the force was seemingly not strong enough in Leia for anyone else to know or sense it within her the way they did with Luke, or at least could be totally eclipsed by him so no one else seemingly noticed or cared at all about her instead of him[ unless you believe that her force-sensitivity & not her status as Princess or Rebel was actually why she got captured by Vader], suggests to me that she was probably less strong or less powerful with the force than Luke was...which means she likely could not have done much if any of what Luke does in the original trilogy in his place IF he hadn't done it or if he'd been removed from the plot entirely and was replaced as main protagonist by her instead...unless she & her force ability had been written completely differently[ and more like him & his ability] than it was. And there definitely wasn't any OTHER character[ just within the actual original trilogy itself] who didn't die, aside from Luke or Leia, who could have even possibly done what Luke did at all.) And there were other characters, like Leia &/or Vader; not just Obi-Wan or Yoda, who treated Luke like he was super-special and important[ specifically because of his Force capability] &/or possibly the very thing that could either bolster or undermine the rebellion's victory/morale entirely. It is true that a Chosen One is not merely just any hero/protagonist type character. They are a character & or hero/protagonist specifically of a very particular kind, who is often[ though maybe not always] somehow more ‘super-extra-special’ than everyone or anyone else in the story in some way other than just because they are the primary protagonist or POV character who just happens to be finding themself in the midst of certain situations that literally anyone could have been in-and either might or might-not in fact literally be ‘the only one’ ever anywhere for all of time, & might or might-not also be a prophecy-come-true. But especially if you don't think a Chosen One necessarily needs to be the only one to have certain powers, or doesn't necessarily need everyone to know or believe in advance that they are a Chosen One at all; or if you believe that a Chosen One doesn't need to be [necessarily ]‘the-most-powerful-one-of-all’[ so overpowered they don't even have to get good at it], nor be a totally instantaneous natural who gets good right away or does everything really well ridiculously easily without even trying. And especially IF you *do* believe a Chosen One really just needs to be the only one who can and/or will do a particular largely-significant thing[ specifically because of who or what they actually/literally are & not just because of the mere role or position they happen to take/fill within the story/plot itself as main/POV character], & or need only be somehow externally meant/fated/destined to do such[ especially by something somehow “more” than or beyond just circumstances alone such as a prophecy but not necessarily always or only-ever a prophecy], yet not necessarily always BOTH super-special AND fated or prophesied; or if you believe Luke was actually the one who brought balance to the force[ &/or was somehow meant to be so all along] and not Vader/Anakin. There are other ways of looking at just about anything. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to believe that other ways of looking at things are getting it exactly right just to acknowledge that there are [kind of ]actual reasons why some people do. And it almost doesn't even matter if you or other people are actually even getting everything exactly right or not, because fiction is fiction[ it's NOT fact] and even fact can sometimes be or mean subjectively very different things to one person than to another person, nevermind art/entertainment/philosophy or anything else.
Almost all tropes can be done well or poorly, but I think chosen one in particular is hugely dependent on the execution. For me, chosen one isn't a reason for me to pick up a book, but it also won't put me off a book. I think for the most part, I like the chosen one trope when it feels more like a burden. Wheel of Time and HP both do this really well. The main characters being chosen ones add to the struggles they go through. I don't like it when the chosen one just means the main character is naturally way more powerful than anyone else without any downside, or when they have no personality aside from being the chosen one.
Hard agree on the "more powerful than everyone else without any downside". That's when it gets eye-roll worthy.
I pretty much completely agree with you, with tiny caveat that I don't think it always needs to feel like a burden...but it should definitely always be or feel-like a huge-huge responsibility. But I also don't think I always mind it at all if a Chosen One story is more triumphant than struggling; I don't think a character having struggles automatically gives them more personality, nor do I really think that not-struggling innately means lacking personality either. But maybe that's just me.🙂
@@Bookborn YES; SAAMMEE HERE, completely agree with that-and the 'having no personality bit', too!
"...I will say that if you haven't read Mistborn and like a chosen one trope, that's a great trilogy for you."
100%! What Brandon Sanderson did with the whole Chosen One thing really drew me in!
I agree with the "chosen ones not really being chosen ones". I always think it's weird when people call Katniss a chosen one.
I think it's an interesting trope, because the prophecy can be used in two different ways: either it's inevitable and nothing anyone does can ever change it or it's more like a "guideline". People still get to make their own decisions which may or may not change the outcome. A chosen one and prophecies in general can make a great exploration about Destiny and the free will.
Absolutely agree! If you are good at focusing on what a character is going through, the idea of a chosen one can be executed well.
Completely agree!
Sometimes, I feel like people [especially with female main characters ]kind of just conflate "Mary Sue" and "Chosen One" together, and so in their mind(s) basically then any female lead character is just a super-special "Chosen One"/"Mary Sue" simply for being the focus or center of their own story-it's kind of baffling and tragic, for sure. But Katniss really wasn't a specifically chosen one any more than any/every other ordinary main-character is. (But, also, that the Chosen One does have multiple different directions it can be taken and can make great stories/characters!)
I absolutely love the chosen one trope when it is done right. There is something comforting in the familiarity of the story
Valid 😊
Agreed! Sometimes it’s nice when fantasy is just comforting
If reading The Wheel of Time has taught me anything, it’s that maybe you don’t always want to describe everything. But if it’s taught me anything else, it’s that chosen ones can result in really interesting characters and stories
I’ve been reading it for a while now and while it’s not my new favorite series, I’ve been blown away at how much it leans on tropes that are borderline cliche and still feel completely original. I’ve never seen the Chosen One be treated so much like a villain before, and it’s awesome
Yes, I like that you said 'Chosen 'ones''' plural. With the three main male leads being described as ta'veren. One of my main issues with WoT, was Mat's luck. I apologise if I missed the signinficance. But, it felt like massive plot contrivance in the final few books. I know it's explained, but I just couldn't find it plausible.
ok accurate 😂
@@MrRjhyt Completely agree
@@MrRjhyt Anything in particular? I might be forgetting something but just thinking back I don't seem to recall his luck being as significant of a factor towards the end; instead I felt like he started to accept and make use of his battle commander heritage that he had tried for so long to ignore.
Going a bit beyond that, I don't think it's fair to Mat as a character to say it's any more of a plot contrivance than any of the other supernatural occurrences in the book. It was probably even more developed, explained, and tied in throughout the book than Perrin being a wolf-brother. From a purely writing standpoint, I don't see a significant difference between the two, or even Rand being the Dragon Reborn. Unnatural things happen to Mat because he's lucky, but similarly, unnatural things happen to Perrin because he's a wolf-brother and Rand because he's the Dragon Reborn. There are both positive and negative consequences to each of these traits throughout the story. I think I would agree if the effects of his luck were always positive, but it just as often put him into bad situations.
Hi Nerds! Let's grab some popcorn and enjoy!😻
Most popular Chosen One character by far is Jesus from the Christian Bible. I’m sure nobody wants to bring it up, because they believe all of this is real instead of fantasy. But as far as stories go, it checks off a huge swath of Fantasy tropes.
The chosen one: he called himself the chosen one.
The secret heir: he called himself the only descendent of God.
The dark lord: he named his adversary as the devil.
Good vs. evil: he said that he’s good and that his adversary is evil, very plainly.
Magic: he displayed magical powers many times during his life, especially by resurrecting Lazarus and himself.
Damsels in distress: Mary Magdalene, among many others (male or female), were protected and rescued by him.
The mentor: for 3 years, he was a mentor to many.
The big quest: he foresaw his own death and prepared his followers for it.
Ancient settings: 0 to 33 AD/CE would be considered ancient by most modern readers.
All powerful artifacts: the method of his final torture and death is the symbol of an entire relgion built around the things he said and did.
The hidden truth: that’s what he is constantly revealing to everyone around him. It was a very cool club when it started, but has since grown to include many believers.
Training sequence: non-traditional, but the 3 years Jesus encourages his disciples to follow him and learn from him can be thought of as the disciples’ training sequence. Jesus doesn’t learn anything since he’s inherited his knowledge from a divine source.
Yeah I would say in general people frown on their religion being called fantasy. I prefer to respect peoples beliefs and so don’t talk about The Bible/Koran/ what have you as lit.
Spot on! All Chosen Ones are heroes, but not all heroes are Chosen Ones.
I love the Chosen One trope, too. There's just something compelling about the dilemma between choosing and accepting your destiny that makes these stories that much more desirable to read.
Most examples I like when the Chosen One trope is used is when it's deliberately subverted and deconstructed like A Song of Ice & Fire and Dune.
Add Thomas Covenant to the list.
Subverted and deconstructed....?
Or vague enough to have multiple meanings/outcomes?
You are 100% right about Katniss, she is definitely not a chosen one. I feel like Bilbo and Frodo is a little more "gray" after all, there is that scene where Gandalf does say something about fate, and how Bilbo and Frodo were MEANT to have the ring. No prophesy of any note, but it could be argued they are chosen to bear the Ring.
Faramir's and Boromir's dream could be seen as something of a prophecy.
"Seek for the for the sword that was broken. In Imladris it dwells.
There shall be councils taken, stronger then Morgal Spells.
There shall be shone a token that Doom is near at hand,
for Isildur's Bane shall waken, and the Halfling forth shall stand."
Perhaps not amazing predictions - I'm not sure if Frodo and Sam had already committed to the journey or not at that time, and "standing" is a little ambiguous, but if we need a prophecy to make the trope...
@@MagusMarquillin I’m going to go ahead and agree here. We may not be bashed over the head with a chosen one story with Frodo but it’s definitely there. I had forgotten all about the rest of the dream, I usually just think of seek for the sword and the Isildurs Bane part.
@@MaxFidler I have a longer comment here arguing in favor of this trope in LotR, citing that very conversation with Gandalf - but with Tolkien's amazing subtlety, I understand anyone taking Bookborn's stance on this.
Yeah someone came in with the LOTR lore and I'd agree that it's gray, and not quite a no like I said. You could interpret it either way - which is probably why its interesting
@@Bookborn Overall, I don't like the idea of saying something is a trope unless the intent is to claim the source material has no depth. Boiling something down to a "trope" is a gross simplification of that character or event in the story and the stories we're discussing are much more complicated than that which is why there's even a debate.
If we had to analyze the Chosen One trope against LotR, however, I would argue that Frodo certainly is not one and the suggestion that he is diminishes his character and what he means to the story and to the reader.
Frodo is a passive character throughout the story. The only decision he actually makes in the entire story is to leave the Fellowship. Leaving the Shire was decided for him by Bilbo giving him the Ring and Gandalf telling him what he needed to do with it. He makes some minor decisions about when to leave and packing his things, but nothing that affects the plot. Prior to Rivendell, Bilbo, Gandalf, Aragorn, and the Nazgul are the only active characters in the plot. Someone might make the argument that he made the decision to carry the ring to Mt. Doom at the meeting in Rivendell, but I'm not convinced that he even did that. For that to have been an active decision on the part of his character, he would have first had to choose to give up the ring, which he never did.
After the Fellowship set out, the next point which could seem like a decision for Frodo is the choice of going to Moria. it is a statement by his character to do so, after all, but by that time all of the other options that had been presented to him had been removed. The dangers of the other two options had been fully realized and were clear to Frodo while the supposed danger of Moria was still ill-defined and murky. There was no real choice here. There are no more possible choices until he leaves the Fellowship on the banks of the Anduin. After leaving the Fellowship, it could be argued that he made a choice to follow Gollum, and this is probably pretty close. However, he's in a strange land, I can't recall if he knows of the maze-like passages of Emyn Muil or not but he knows that he doesn't actually know how to get to Mordor, so he doesn't really have a lot of options and I would argue there is no choice for his character here, despite the obvious threat that Gollum poses.
After that, it could be argue that he chose to spare Gollum's life with Faramir but, again, Gollum is his only path into Mordor as he sees it, he doesn't really have any choice here. After the fight with Shelob, the ring is now too much of a burden for him to make any active decisions and Sam becomes the active character in the story in place of Gollum, all the way until Mt. Doom, when the will of the ring takes control of his character and Gollum ultimately heralds its destruction.
It was not through Frodo's actions that the ring was destroyed; he simply carried it along the way. I would argue that for a character to be a Chosen One, they must actually be an active character in their own story. Frodo is not. That isn't to diminish his character at all. He bore the burden and suffered and persevered, but he didn't make very many active decisions. His choice, as a character, was to hold out, to stand in the face of evil and say not this day. Frodo represents the best of what's inside us. The indomitable human spirit, the will to face the difficulties and challenges of life and persevere until the bitter end, to know that as long as we can hold on and allow ourselves to accept the aid of those around us, we'll make it through. There isn't anything special or chosen about Frodo because Frodo is all of us.
This agrees with something I have said a lot: "Trope X" isn't falling out of style so much as "Trope X done poorly" is falling out of style. Most people I've heard complaining about the Chosen One trope aren't unhappy with the idea of a (supposedly) inevitable destiny (the core of a Chosen One trope) so much as the auto-success that so many Chosen Ones experience. This isn't to say there aren't valid critiques of Chosen One uses, such as the people I've heard say they dislike the concept of one person being selected as "better" than the rest of the cast, but no trope is loved by everyone. It does, however, feel like many people dislike the Chosen One trope because they're tired of seeing it done poorly.
As an aside, my book is in SPFBO 8, is an adult fantasy, and has a Chosen One. Here's hoping Booknest likes it enough to send it to finals! I hope you enjoy your pool of books for SPFBO. A lot of them look awesome.
Hard agree. As more and more media gets produced (let's face it, we have more books and shows and movies being made than ever) the more chance we have to see poor versions of them. I also think tropes do come and go in waves.
Good luck with SPFBO! Which is your book?
@@Bookborn Popularity varies, for sure, and it's also true that readers tend to connect more with the tropes they grew up on, so as trends go through the industry different generations have different "classic" tropes they love. I'd be fascinated by an evaluation of trends in publishing and how they align with (or deviate from) broader reader interest.
Thank you! I wrote Wake of the Phoenix. Booknest has it for the first round, but I was so humbled to see Fantasy Book Critic pull it out as one of the books they saw in the competition that they think has an interesting cover and/or title and/or blurb. It's SO much pressure, especially when you start reading the other books in the competition and realize how good some of them are! My reading list is getting very long.
I definitely agree with you both!
And, even when something does legit "fall out of style"-that's never a guarantee that it'll be dead forever either. Lol
Great video! I’d definitely say Katniss and the Hobbits are Reluctant Heroes rather than chosen ones.
Yes TOTALLY agree. Reluctant hero isn’t always a chosen one (and vice versa!)
@@Bookborn Totally. The reluctant hero differs from the chosen one because it’s not fate or prophecy that calls the reluctant hero. But both heroes suffer from the call to action being thrust upon them whether or not they want it.
That said, Frodo is likely a chosen one. Citing Gandalf telling Frodo that he was meant to the have the Ring but also, as it was pointed out to me, In Boromir’s dream- which stated that the Halflings will stand.
It may be gray area, but I think there is probably enough evidence to support the argument that Frodo is both reluctant hero and a chosen one.
@@Bookborn I wonder how you feel about Avatar the last airbender. While there is not specifically a prophecy about Aang ending a war he seems to be somewhat of a chosen one by just being the avatar? Anyway, he is reluctant FOR SURE
@@Bookborn While Rand Al'Thor is definitetly both a chosen one AND a reluctant hero...
And Mat Cauthon is DEFINITELY a reluctant hero...
Is Mat also a chosen one?
He was, after all, prophesied... as was Perrin.
YEESS - This entire thread is top-notch, every single one of you making good points here; I appreciate that/you, all. 👏 💜💜 ^-^
Ugh, 1000% agree. I’ve seen too many analyses that presume protagonist = chosen one, and I really don’t think that’s right
It's NOT. Like being a hero doesn't mean you are chosen! So if you are tired of a single hero in a story, that's one thing, but don't blame it all on the chosen one 😭 (But also I'm basic and don't mine a straight up hero with a happy ending lol)
@@Bookborn I'm 10,000+% agreeing with both of you, on all of this. (And I don't mind a straightforward hero with a happy ending either-even though I also don't mind just about any other option either🤣🖤💜)
When all's said and done, it doesn't matter what people are currently saying online.
This isn't a matter of transient literary fads.
This is deeply rooted in human psychology; it's into Jungian archetype territory.
It goes back millenia and will still be a thing, long after the latest arc of the "it's cool to dislike that which is common" pendulum has swung back.
Almost certainly true. 🙂👍🏻
Agreed! I almost made a comment about that in my video. Fads and trends come and go but there is a reason some things stick around for so long. Chosen one is something I truly believe won’t ever go away
That's a very interesting topic.
The chosen one trope definitely means a character having a fate/responsibility put on them through outside supernatural forces (hence the use of prophecies). You talked about the Greek myths, and after finishing The Iliad last month, it seemed to have more to do with fatality (For example, Achilles was doomed to die in the Trojan war). Same with Oedipus (I've read Sophocles' play): he couldn't escape killing his father and marrying his mother. It wasn't about responsibility. What struck me when I read LOTR about Aragorn is that he was clearly a Christ-like figure and, unlike what we see in the movies where's he's reluctant, he embraced from the start his prophesied role as King and Healer of his people. He knew he was the One who had to be in that position, so peace and reunification could happen after the devastating war. Which is very reminiscent of the biblical Millenium in which Christ - the King - comes back for a thousand years, restores the Land of Israel and reigns on his people (both Jews and Gentiles reunited through Him).
So I actually thought Aragorn embracing his role and fighting for his people in the war and then healing the wounded was beautiful and meaningful just as much as Harry Potter's struggles and hardships through it all. I think both versions of this trope worked very well for those specific stories and I really wouldn't change a thing (except I wish Neville was the real chosen one, I would have loved such a plot twist 😌).
Great analysis. I do think it’s interesting how you parsed that the chosen one in Greek myths is often used for a very different reason then what we think of in modern storytelling.
I have to admit I love that Neville isn’t a chosen one - he does it all on his own which I find very special
@@Bookborn Thanks ☺️
And wow, yes, that's a lovely thought! (Neville is definitely my favourite 💗)
@@onfaerystories I love pretty much everything you two have said here!.
Just..two thoughts that popped into my mind over here though : 1.) even Biblical Jesus is actually mildly reluctant, and also dies in the end; at least, physically speaking not spiritually (thus resurrects and returns again later on), but still; he actually goes and begs God 'is there no other way?' but the answer is 'No'/'this is the only way', although he does ultimately [trust God's way / ]accept that burden/responsibility anyhow. & 2.) I don't think something being somehow predestined or inevitable necessarily negates someone's agency/choices; I mean, is a prophecy always really some inescapable thing which forces them to make certain choices or act certain ways when otherwise they wouldn't have, or is it sometimes really just a declaration of what their choices or actions all on their own would eventually have been sooner or later anyhow?? 🤔😅😁
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I made the parallel between Aragorn and Jesus coming back as King, not Jesus having to be a sacrifice. He was human too and he knew how hard his task was, how painful both physically and mentally. So yes, in that sense, he still asked God if there was another way, but that's not what I was focussing on.
But you're absolutely right, Jesus ultimately CHOSE to die for us, because any responsibility/sacrifice requires active love, which is a quality most chosen ones do have (and that's why these outside forces see potential in them in the first place).
@@onfaerystories Oh-no, no, no! I wasn't trying to say that was the parallel that you were making, or anything; Sorry! I was just saying, because you contrasted Aragorn versus like the Greek tragedies or such. Like, in that sense, even those comparisons or two versions of the Chosen One trope/concept wouldn't necessarily be that entirely different[ just in that one tiny respect]-and even Chosen Ones in modern fiction do still sometimes die in the end. And maybe the difference between Aragorn in the movie versus Aragorn in the books wasn't actually/necessarily that completely or entirely totally-divorced from each other either? That was all.
I wasn't trying to criticize or add-to specifically what you and Bookborn said or such-that was just a slight, tangentially-related rabbit hole my own brain jumped down as I read what you and Bookborn said, which seemed worth sharing possibly. Lol ^-^
Bilbo was chosen by Gandalf. It’s never quite clear how much magic is involved in Gandalf’s decisions. So in my reading, Bilbo is a chosen one in The Hobbit. Same goes for Jezal in The First Law series, who is chosen by Bayaz. That’s maybe my favorite recent take on it, though there are some nice variations/distortions of the Theme in the Malazan Book of the Fallen.
As for its antecedents, I think it traces back to King Arthur and Excalibur.
I agree, some of the best stories are chosen one stories, no need to act like we're over it.
I can sort of see why Lord of the Rings is cited as one of these sort of stories: when Frodo asks "why did it (the ring) come to me, why was I chosen?", Gandalf confirms that "you have been chosen." and that "Bilbo was _meant_ to find the ring, and _not_ by it's maker. In which case you also were _meant_ to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.". It's true, there's no prophecy and therefore Tolkien's not heavy handed about it, but especially when we read the Silmarillion we learn more about the heavenly powers behind the story - lightly alluded to in LotR - willing fate (doom) onto certain special people. Gandalf himself is an agent of that power (the Secret Fire), though he doesn't know everything they know, he had the insight to _insist_ Bilbo go on that quest.
I don't really disagree with you though, because there's no prophecy, and most characters see it in terms of chance, and ultimately it was Frodo's own choice to take the ring to Rivendell and again choose to bare it to Mordor - but then again, any good chosen one story probably makes it seem like the One has some agency in determining their fate - Dumbledore made that clear, but then again that's probably why they were chosen, because that's the sort of person they are.
Then again, we could definitely argue Faramir's and Boromir's dream as something of a prophecy.
"Seek for the for the sword that was broken. In Imladris it dwells.
There shall be councils taken, stronger then Morgal Spells.
There shall be shone a token that Doom is near at hand,
for Isildur's Bane shall waken, and the Halfling forth shall stand."
Perhaps not amazing predictions, I'm not sure if Frodo and Sam had already committed to the journey or not at that time, and "standing" is a little ambiguous, but if you need a prophecy for the trope...
You coming in hot with the LOTR lore is what I needed! I think from everything you said it's probably not a hard no, but rather ambiguous. Tolkien played around with a lot of tropes, and so maybe we could think of Bilbo and Frodo as semi-chosen ones. You could argue it either way.
I agree with you both-in the case of LotR, it's definitely open for interpretation, either way. 😊
(I also agree that any good Chosen One is chosen specifically because that is the sort of person they are, a person who would choose the right/world-saving/ path; Unless we make it more about being "the only one" who is capable of doing X-thing because X-reason, like needing yin vs yang, or whatever[ which I mean can also sometimes apply too..sometimes even IN the case of being the one would would choose the right path or such].)
LOTR arguably also makes use of the Chosen One trope, albeit more subtly. All of the events in the story are guided by divine providence - as Gandalf said to Frodo, "Bilbo was _meant_ to find the ring, in which case you were _meant_ to find it". Frodo has basically been chosen by God to be the ring-bearer. There's no ancient prophecy involved, but he was just as 'chosen' for his task as Rand al'Thor was for his.
Exactly! ^-^ ☺️
Like many, I have issues with the Star Wars prequels (though I do still appreciate them overall), but I think Lucas did a legitimately interesting twist on the Chosen One, setting Anakin up to fall, even though he still technically fulfilled the prophecy.
He fulfilled the prophecy and concludes it in ROTJ!
I totally agree! The chosen one is probably my favorite trope too - such classic stories.
I don't like this as a trope but like I obviously have a lot of the same favorites, and a lot of them do it well. It just doesn't *excite* me. I am never pumped about the idea of a chosen one. Mistborn is maybe an exception in execution, and I do agree that Wheel of Time handles it in the most interesting way that I've seen, but overall it's just too tied to prophecies and I don't like prophecies that much...I think my actual favorite prophecy/chosen one trope IS Harry Potter and that's because it could have actually been Neville but Voldemort chose Harry which set all sorts of things in motion. So the "what if" nature of it has always been intriguing to me.
That is totally fair, I think. 🙂
Not every person is going to have all the same preference(s)-that's a big part of what I think makes it worth there being so many different people.
_(I also love 'What ifs' too^^)_
Admittedly prophecies can come off cheesy but if they aren’t too overdone I like it. But yeah maybe I’m purposefully ignoring the bad ones lol
you have such a refreshing view on so many aspects of fantasy that have been talked into the ground, everyone wants to fight back on the successful tropes and say the are overdone, which may be the case, but every type of story up until this time could be considered overdone, I love the chosen one trope and I want to see it redone over and over in different ways, I think its interesting in how many ways the story can be told (as long as its in an interesting way)
I also think there is a reason we go back to certain tropes - some of them have basic roots in humanity and things we like to explore as people. Those will always resonate with us.
YES.
What both of you said 🙂 💜😁😊
I love chosen one stories. Interestingly my favorite ones are all sci fi. Dune, Star Wars and Matrix are my favorite chosen one stories. I didn’t like it as much in Harry Potter and would have preferred if it was more random. But I still liked the series a lot. The biggest detractor for me is that you have to be special to be a hero and you can’t just work your way up.
Harry Potter is an interesting Chosen One, because the prophesies could have applied to either him or Nevel Longbottom, and it was actually Voldemort who chose between the two, setting them on the path to put an end to the Riddle. Throughout the books, Harry has the choice to abandon the quest ... but Voldemort keeps doing things to provoke Harry, like ordering Cedric Diggory killed, ensuring that Harry will stay on the path that will lead to Voldemort's defeat.
Rand al'Thor is also an interesting Chosen One because he spends the first 2 books of the epic denying that he is the chosen one, almost completely drops out of the narrative in the 3rd book when he tries to prove whether he is the Dragon Reborn or not, and horrible things happen to him in the later books because people REFUSE to understand his nature or their place in the pattern. Moiraine and Suan had a plan to find the reborn Dragon and sequester him in Tar Valon until THEY deemed he was ready, essentially setting themselves against the pattern, as if they knew better than the Creator: their plan would have doomed the world to the Dark One, and Elaida's plan would have had the same result. As bad as Elaida's plan was, and her choice of people to carry it out, Moiraine and Suan's was worse, because it would have meant years for Rand to be discovered, and either gentled or turned - the Eye of the World would have been lost, the Horn of Valere would have been lost along with the Dragon Banner, the Seanchan would have consolidated their foothold, and Rand would have likely ignored the Aiel and Sea Folk prophesies. The torture that Rand received would have been nothing in comparison to the Dragon Reborn not being free to influence and be influenced by the Pattern.
Interesting, interesting points! ^^
I'll show my age here... But, I loved The chronicle of Thomas Covenant when I was younger. He's very much the chosen one, and a quite intriguing anti-hero, and very resistant to the role. We also have Linden Avery lit. The Chosen, in the subsequent series.
The first Thomas Covenant trilogy was one of the hardest that I ever read.
When he did you-know-what... I wished he was real so I could kill him... and I hated "spending time with him" after that, reading from his POV, until... oh... maybe the middle of the 3rd book.
I read those when they were new... and have never re-read them... because I just can't stand TC.
As I child I read the rape that the main character, Thomas Covenant, committed after isekai-ing into his fantasy world. Fuck that noise. It was the most traumatizing thing I've ever read, it was cruel, and it was brushed aside by the author as far as I could tell. I'll never forgive the author for doing this.
I'll bring this up: every. fucking. time. anyone mentions this series. The author is dead to me, as is ANY author/show runner that includes a rape scene in their narrative. Game of Thrones for instance. I stopped caring about that show when they displayed rape.
I'm not sorry for going off topic, I'm deeply entrenched on this issue.
Good interesting video!! Happy reading to you!! 😊
In a similar vein as Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, King Arthur is also (in a way) a chosen one. This is especially self-evident with the Sword in the Stone, "Whom should ever pull this sword from this stone shall be named King of all England" is pretty much a Chosen One Prophecy.
Yup!
Plus, the mere fact that (theoretically) literally only one person could pull that sword out; even if there had been no accompanying prophecy regarding what that specifically meant around it, until it just played out that way. (Although, without the prophecy, it may have become a bit more ambiguous or a bit less self-evident at least.)
Ah yes, King Arthur! A good example of another old chosen one
My favorite stories are the ones that include chosen one prophecies, even if the mere existence of one “spoils” the ending. Journey before destination! I recommend you read John Gwynne’s The Faithful and the Fallen series for a pretty interesting spin on the chosen one prophecy.
I agree with you. I really enjoy the chosen one trope. Not sick of it at all. Ryiria Revelations is another great series with this! I can't remember if you've read or not... if not I highly recommend!!
I also have never thought about Katniss as a chosen one. Reluctant hero 100%
I read the first Ryiria Revelations ages ago! I only read the first one though, I liked it but didn't love it. My husband read all of them and has been convincing me I need to give them another go for a while 😅
I think winning cures all 😊 people always complain about tropes if they’re not done well. Avatar the last Airbender has a pretty standard elemental Magic system but it’s done so well that people don’t generally mention the fact that it’s standard. I think the Chosen One works especially well in YA and middle grade because it makes the protagonist immediately relatable. An out of their depth teenager who is thrust into confusing circumstances is super relatable to most young adults. I personally enjoy the Chosen One trope.
Very true. Even things that have been "done before" are good if it's done correctly. I'm also basic though and like elemental magic 😂
I'm not a fan of the Chosen One trope. I think my dislike is rooted in how it fundamentally conceives "specialness" as something foreordained rather than earned.
That said, I thought your reasons for liking the trope totally made sense. Best explanation for the trope I've heard so far. There is definitely a comforting aspect to identifying with a lot of those characters.
Please do more videos like these! This is great food for thought.
I remember the debate about whether or not all Chosen Ones must be prophesied going around[ a lot], years ago, too. And I believe the general consensus back then tended to be that a Chosen One did not necessarily have to be a specifically-prophesied one(even though they often were), but that they did need to be chosen by a little more than just mere default of being the main/central character of the story-if I'm not mistaken. So, like, [IF they just inexplicably have some mysteriously super-special power/ability that no others in that world have ever had before and it just happens to be exactly what that world needs for the day to be saved just coincidentally showing up exactly when that world really needs it most or all hope would be lost, OR if they just happen to be the last surviving descendant or last known member of a very particular uber-special race or bloodline or sect/etcetera/ previously thought extinct/defunct/ except for this one lone character and they're now the world's only hope because of that, OR ]if there was a sword or some other ultra-special uber!artifact or such that no others could wield(not explained by like futuristic DNA-locked weaponry or something nor by simply gaining enough power or enough training or such in general to become so elevated but theoretically anyone else could have done so too even though maybe no one else actually did so) which made that character "The Only One" who could thus defeat the big-bad &/or save the world[ using that particular thing].. then..that character might still be considered a Chosen One, even without a prophecy-and even if they weren't actually even the main/central or POV character at all. (Unless I'm misremembering it.) 🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️ 😁 idk
I also remember it kinda always being much debated if "Hidden Royalty"(or whatever it's called) is really just another spin on the "Chosen One" trope, or is actually a sometimes overlapping but totally different trope altogether. 😂
I think tropes, in general, are typically more guidelines than totally unshakeable/rigid/ laws anyhow. So...I think it's a bit counterintuitive, kinda, to try and really lock tropes down too much into these restrictive little boxes or the hard-and-fast/black-&-white/ rules and such. But maybe that's just me. ^-^
The reason I don't like chosen ones is because it makes me more aware of the plot amour and plot conveniences when they happen. I understand that pretty much all stories have some measure of plot convenience around the main characters, but when its a chosen one, I'm exponentially more aware and takes a little of enjoyment out of the story for me.
That's a legit criticism of the chosen one! Having prophecy involved can do that for sure
But[ in my opinion] there is actually nothing about a chosen one, any more than about any other main character, that says they can't fail or be harmed or maybe even die[ and not necessarily or always resurrect afterward] in the end[ even if they don't fail]. 🤔😅🤷♀️ (but maybe that's just me/my brain)
I totally agree that special characters that often result out of Chosen One stories are not inherently a sign of bad writing. I personally don't like those type of stories. Overall I like underdog stories a lot more. And a character being the Chosen One means that even if they started out as the underdog, they will have to become important and special.
From my experience the Chosen One is quite often the underdog in the beginning, they obviously are going to survive the trials and tribulations but that is the exciting journey the author takes us along for a ride on. Their amiable friends don't always make it. We don't open books an only read the last chapter, right? "Journey before destination."
@@mgntstr I agree with you there. I think my problem is that in Chosen One Stories being a underdog is the start of the story and something the character grows out of instead of it always being a part of the story. And I disagree with your comment "Journey before destination". I want a good book to have an ending I enjoy too. Sometimes the good of the journey outweighs the bad of an ending I didn't like but I want both to be enjoyable.
@@kibert135 It is ture. It's true a bad ending will indelibly soil the journey after finish a book.
I've been engrossed in 'He Who Fights With Monsters' these past couple of months, It's endings leave quite a lot to be expected... But it is not really a traditional book. After the 3rd published release I found out that really it was actually a free book online with 600+ chapters with new installments added regularly by the week.
The author is just slicing it up for publishing reasons. Now I'm 2 or maybe 3 or 4 books "ahead of the curve". 😄
@@kibert135 I don't think "journey before destination" really rules out the fact that the destination or ending can also matter quite a lot.
It just means that the ending doesn't change how the story was before it got there[ to that conclusion].
I don't think a Chosen One is always, for example, specifically prophesied to win or succeed though(only that they will be the only who might or the only to face x-thing or whatever); it is entirely possible for a chosen one to stay doubted or disbelieved or rooted-against by others all the way to the end, until ultimately triumphing anyhow. (I mean, evil chosen ones are also a thing, after all; among many other things.) And even in an underdog story, there usually comes a point when at least one or more other character (&/or the underdog themself) do eventually start believing the underdog can actually pull it off or succeed or whatever, or when it becomes clear that they will.
But it's true enough that, too often, there is little new imagination or variety put into it.
Facts. Preach.
I too love a good Chosen One story. You might recall that I'm writing my own.
I enjoyed how it was handled in Mistborn, because there is some doubt throughout and it isn't made clear until the end of the trilogy how it was that that character was indeed chosen.
And it is pretty obvious about Rand. I've only read the first two books (and the prequel) and will be reading the Dragon Reborn in April. I have a plan to read a Wheel of Time novel every four months (so April, August, and December) every year until I'm done with the series. I want to be able to read other things and not burn out by trying to read all 15 in a row, without breaks.
Heck yeah! The Chosen One trope gets way more crap than it deserves.
Heck, tropes as a CONCEPT get more crap than they deserve-yes, certain patterns have shown up in storytelling since the paleolithic era, but that’s because they speak powerfully to humanity. You need to execute well, yes, but tropes themselves aren’t a bad thing.
Also agreed that a lot of what people refer to as “Chosen One” stories are in fact “stories with a single main protagonist,” which is not the same thing. :p
THIS! ^ - exactly this.
Thank You☺️
Tropes are not a bad thing. *However,* we have replaced actual analysis of literary qualities with a game of Tropespotting, and *that* is a bad thing. People are starting to rank which stories they like based on which tropes they contain, rather than based on whether the book was written well. That's backwards. That would be like saying "I like this apple because it's got nitrogen in it."
@@Fishmorph (Well, unless you had some reason to really need or want that nitrogen, I suppose.🙃😅👀 ;- p Lol)
That's a fair point though. I mean, tropespotting is fun and serves its purposes-but it's definitely not any replacement for actual literary analysis, which can be a different kind of fun but also important.
“The reason that clichés become clichés is that they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox of communication.” ― Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Sam is obviously the chosen one in LOTR, his ride or die mentality is mythical.
Mistborn era 1 does the chosen one really well! Lots of chosen ones
Sam is everything. Truly the hero of LOTR
Certainly, Tolkien himself considered Sam as the hero.
I feel like as in a lot of stories, whether I like a Chosen One very much depends on the character. For me, a summary or book blurb of the story gets me to try a book, but it is the characters that make me finish a book. The personality/character of a Chosen One is especially important as they tend to be the central character around which a story revolves. If the Chosen One is a dull/passive/unlikeable/stupid character then it is going to be hard for me to continue to be interested in a story.
I have been reading a lot of Chinese Fantasy Web Novels recently and the worse combination for any character but especially a "Chosen One" is dumb and passive. Reading the story then becomes an exercise in frustration.
I think the chosen one trope probably has it's roots in religious beliefs about the savior that shows up. I can't prove that but thats where my mind goes with the trope
That would make sense! I think religion has influenced a lot of story telling, in general.
@@Bookborn For sure! I mean in general religion is some that is felt so deeply. Whether it's beliefs or rejection/non belief, religion is something I think nearly everyone has some sort of feeling about it. Definitely logical for it to influence storytelling.
Another chosen one troupe that was used in a very interesting way, is Paul Atreides from Dune. He is a "chosen" one from a prophecy but the prophecy was created by people and through their own power planted the seeds for the prophecy generations before Paul is even born. I thought it was a very interesting way to do it.
Yeah, I think that he is also a great antithesis to the chose one trope. The next books did a great job by showing us the horrible things that Paul and his holy war has done to the galaxy and his son is even worse in that regard.
I'm loving this Trope Analysis series, looking forward to the next one!
Me too!!!!! 😊🤍💖
I also love the chosen one trope and I concur that people are fed up with it being executed poorly. I'm on my 3rd read of Mistborn and that way Sanderson handles that trope is really neat. I don't know if you anime/manga Hilary, but Naruto also tackles the trope but in a more over the tope way. Just my 2 cents. Great video as always.
I tend to read manga more than watch anime! I've been working my way through Haikyuu and really enjoying it, so maybe I'll loo into Naruto next ;)
I really like emphasizing the difference between the Hero (ala Joseph Campell) and the Chosen One. If you have not read Peter V Brett's Demon Cycle (the first being The Warded Man) you should it is fantastic and has a Chosen One - although admittedly the prophecy angle is a bit muted compared to the WoT
My husband loves the Warded Man. I've been meaning to read it for ages!
I'm with you on this one. Tropes are good if done well. Chosen One is a classic. I'm a sucker for "Lone Wolf and Cub".
Having a prophesied Chosen One is in many ways an easy "in" for an author - instead of having to come up with reasons your character is special, you have one ready made for you with a whole weight of history behind it, and you already have direction for your story without having to go through too much agonising decision-making.
I love a Chosen One trope, but sometimes it feels like it almost *has* to tie in to every other trope out there - the Chosen One has to be from a poor rural (or, recently, city-orphaned) background; has to be super powerful; has to be the only one with any real agency in their story; has to be reluctant; has to be innocent and morally commendable. Rand is a great example of this even though his characterisation still manages to feel original. Just once, I would love to see a morally grey Chosen One, or a Chosen One from a normal, happy life who has always dreamt that one day a prophecy would be about them.
I’m with you on this one - and share the same favourite examples of chosen ones! I think Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow & Thorn series has some interesting uses of the Chosen One trope too - with a very vague prophecy that several people think applies to them and a couple of big twists at the end!
Ah... your post just reminded me of another one...
Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth.
I think you're absolutely right about there being nothing wrong with liking Chosen Ones. And about there being nothing wrong with liking or longing-for the specialness sometimes. 🙂
Well, I have the inside scoop on a debut adult fantasy that utilizes the Chosen One (prophesy, et al) that's coming out this fall. (If the frenetic author can get--and keep--his shit together, that is.) I chose the Chosen One (heh) before I fully grasped that I was doing so (almost 20 years ago, long before I heard much of the current disdain for the trope). But I didn't choose to use it because I wanted to have a powerful protagonist. Quite the contrary. I wanted to explore how external pressures and the expectations of others affect someone who's thrust into a leadership role. Also wanted to peel back how people tend to use religious dogma as a political lever, and how prophesy continues to morph to suit current political needs. It was fun to play around with how my protagonists' feel about the issue, too (rejection of it, to realizing playing along might have advantages, to drinking the Kool-aid, to regreting it--i.e. the Kool-aid hangover).
Probably needless to say, but I like the trope, too. And I really can't think of any that I dislike. Excellent topic. Glad you're taking a look. I'll have to come back and check the comments, see how the issue plays. (Eek.)
YOU CAN DO IT. GET YOUR ISH TOGETHER and release it in the fall 🤣 All the things you list are exactly what I love in a chosen one. When you focus on the character, and if they don't immediately just become a hero, I think there is a lot to explore.
Sounds really interesting-YOU CAN DO IT[, we believe in you]! 🙂 😁 Lol
_P. S. ...ignore the current disdain for the trope, there is still plenty of current love/like and appreciation for the trope as well(!!). ^-^_
@@Bookborn To be fair, though-I don't think there's anything wrong with plot focused stories either, I think not every story needs or has to be a super deeply character focused/driven/ piece(not even with a Chosen One). But, yeah, works with /deep/complex characters as a focus are typically my favorites too!😊
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Thanks, I very much appreciate the encouragement. :^) Happy Friday!
@@vaughnroycroft999 You're welcome-and a happy friday to you too! 🙂
I love the Chosen One trope. I agree that Katniss isn’t a Chosen One, and that the only Chosen One in LOTR is Aragorn.
Harry Potter is actually a really cool one though, because of the fact that it has nothing to do with Harry. It has everything to do with Voldemort.
Great video!
-T
Yesss that's why I've always loved the Harry Potter one! It's a prophecy that has absolutely guided and affected Harry's life...but really, it's not even about him. That's the perfect amount of twist.
Yes, Voldemort made Harry the chosen one. There were others who it could have applied to.
I like that you constrain the concept at the start. Calling things by the right name is a prerequisite for good discussion.
My favourite chosen one is Paul in Dune because of the depth and complications of his story. First off, he is a premature chosen one that wasn't supposed to be. Because of his mother's insubordination in birthing a son instead of a daughter the Kwisatz Haderach arrives a generation too early. So is he the real Kwisatz Haderach? Both the Bene Gesserit and he has to struggle with his untimely arrival. He grows up largely outside Bene Gesserit control and is further complicated by his contact with the Fremen. He doesn't turn out exactly as the sisterhood intended. But is that because he is a flawed Kwisatz Haderach or because the idea itself was flawed or its ramifications misunderstood? It makes for an interesting story.
If you have anything to say about Dune, please make a video about it!
Definitely a trope that can go either way. I enjoy I good portion of the time. Can’t say that I hate it like a lot of people say they do today
Yep. Same~ !
Traveler's Gate by Will Wight has a fun twist on the trope.
But it's crazy to me how people will push the definition of a trope as if it's some kind of buzzword.
I think that's a function of the internet. Everyone wants to label everything.
Love me some Choosen One
I adore the chosen one trope!
I think people criticise tropes all too easily.
Basically, people become CONVINCED that some literary analysis tools they learned in classes are the summit of assessing literary quality.
It's sad, bc literature is kinda... bad. Dry academic consideration and self importance.
Meanwhile, storytelling is FUN.
Its something we do as humans. I'm fairly sure Pratchett had more than one quote to this effect. (where the rising ape meets the falling angel, springs to mind)
Tropes are almost built into us. Foundations upon which our entire concepts of identity and category are built.
A trope is only as good or bad as the person employing it.
I've made this defence MANY times over "Mary Sue" tropes. Mainly because the accusation of BEING that trope causes immediately denied almost every time. But the trope itself is neutral and the criticism is FAR more about how it is being used. (People EFFECTIVELY level the exact same criticism when labelling something "a power fantasy" and such things are WILDLY popular!)
So it is with "chosen one" themes.
I don't find them particularly compelling on a PERSONAL level, as I'm something of a nihilist... BUT they speak to a great deal of human experience. Who HASN'T experienced imposter syndrome? These tropes let an author explore how people react to the biggest stresses imaginable. Being in charge, being relied upon, being *responsible* Things we can ALL appreciate and underlying it the trope offers affirmation that even those *literally* chosen for a great destiny can feel the same way.
I'd say that's powerful for storytelling, myself.
I mean, I disagree that literature is entirely all dry or self-important. I also don't personally think insulting one thing is ever a good way of praising some other thing.
But I do agree that many people often judge tropes too harshly/too dismissively. As you say: even if a particular thing or trope isn't your own personal cup of tea, that doesn't mean it's completely without value...even if it IS perhaps completely worthless, to you, specifically.
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341
Just going on my experience, judging "acclaimed literature" and the people who seem to prefer it.
Give me something lowbrow and fun every time.
Steinbeck and Atwood were an *absolute* drag to study. I far preferred Shakespeare, even having to endure the drone of teenagers trying to read aloud. (I was instead mocked for making too much effort to "perform" when reading :P)
A trope is only as good as the execution of it. I like it when it's done well. Wheel of Time and Faithful and the Fallen are my favourites.
Haven't rad Faithful and Fallen yet but I've heard good things!
I think Chosen Ones remain more common and popular in YA because younger people tend to be more likely to just be perfectly okay with seeing the "same"/similar/ thing repeated over and over and over again. If they liked it. They actually WANT to see more of it-they don't as much want to see something totally new or different; or, if they do, just the slightest little differences can be enough to change it up for them without losing the familiarity or the comfort of that 'it' factor/thing they love to see. (Or .. At least, that's how it was for me, when I was younger. But, to be honest, I don't think I ever entirely grew out of that and I don't think I ever completely lacked the appreciation for totally new/different things either...I think, for me, it's really just that eventually I had gained more things amongst those "same"/similar/ things I know & like than I had before. Lol) But maybe that's just me. ^-^
I wouldn’t include Dune as a series that uses the “chosen one” trope.
My reason? Paul never really accomplishes what he is supposed to do and sends the universe into a tail spin. Leto II only sets the pieces for the “chosen one” to accomplish what is necessary.
With that being said the “prophecy,” in this case the product of the Bene Gesserit program, only acts as a set piece to nudge along the actions of another that wasn’t anticipated to solve a problem that was never anticipated.
I def think it’s an unusual use of the chosen one, but as there is a prophecy I think it still fits. Honestly I think unique spins on the trope is something that makes it the most interesting!
This is only tangentially related, really ... but _( since you did mention Mary Sues a little(even though I know this is a Chosen One NOT Mary Sue discussion/vid), and I have myself just been thinking a lot about Sues & the history of the term at least so far as I remember and digging a little more into its actual origins/history/ lately. )_
Supposedly, the Mary Sue trope actually arose kind of naturally too, even before it was given a name. The fact that it already existed and was significantly prevalent in fics submitted to fanzines and such way back in the 1970s or whatever was in fact exactly why the [in]famous fanfic that gave the trope its name was ever even written in the first place, specifically as a satire about this noticeable trend's existence. And there has pretty much always been debate ever since then about what exactly is or isn't actually a Mary Sue[ or a 'Mary Sue story'] or not too-as well as about whether or not a character[ or story] found guilty of being one is actually always a bad thing.
(In the late 1990s, apparently someone even wrote an essay or something once about supposedly '150 years of Mary Sues' in fiction; including alleged Canon{non-fanfic}!Sues, some dating back all the way even at least into fiction of the 1800s, or so.)
I personally remember, back in the earlier 2000s; sometime between like 2004 and 2012[ or so], there being a lot of active debate going around online at that time about whether or not all self-inserts were Mary Sues & whether all Mary Sues were actually self-inserts or not, and whether or not a Sue character was even possible or could actually even exist at all outside of fanfiction in canon/original material. Which I think simultaneously gave rise both to my personal school of thought that not all Sues are self-inserts / not all self-inserts are Sues AND to this persistent theory which I do not personally ascribe to at all that being O.P.(or Overpowered) is one-of the- if not *THE* -distinguishing/defining factor of a Mary Sue(neither of which everyone ever always agreed if was true or was untrue), followed later on by the currently commonplace idea that a Mary Sue is "too perfect"//"too good at everything or anything she does" &/or "too [super!]'special'" / "too much the center of attention"; as people attempted to define the concept of Mary Sues in general[ and/or in a way that didn't just condemn all OCs in fanfiction altogether] but could maybe still apply even to characters in actually original/canon fiction too, thus justifying the extreme distaste and condemnation for Sues[ in fics] as actually " 'bad' writing " and not just personal subjective preferences either for or against those particular kinds of characters/stories/ in general...
BUUT if you really look at the original satirical fanfic itself[ parodying all the other fics that had a particular kind of writing/character or story], it's really not being either a self-insert or overpowered that makes a Sue a Sue, nor is it really just being too perfect or too good at whatever she does or even necessarily being the center of attention(since a Sue could in fact be EITHER the character given to helming the ship without the rank or training or experience necessary for it simply because they're the center of the captain's attention/affection/ OR the character completely ignored unnoticed in the background even whilst they easily save the day until saving the day wins everyone over to love them and despair at their tragic/self-sacrificial/ demise)-it's the way that Mary Sue unjustifiably[ bordering on nonsensically] affects the story and/or the other characters around her, for no real good reason, not sufficiently enough explained[ or justified] even just by being the main or POV character alone[ and at the expense of the other characters or story overall]. And, yes, it does border a tricky tricky line between what is actually a Mary Sue versus what is in fact just "The Only One" who can save the day because they're either a Chosen One or just the primary central character of the entire story in general(Much like the 'Chosen One' trope /can/does too); _especially_ when talking about Sues[ or potential Sues] in canon/original fiction, and not just in specifically fanfiction. Among other things. ((Which is[ I think] likely precisely why the term has been such a big and or heated topic of debate/discussion for well over 20 years now, with no signs of really ever slowing/cooling/ down, at this rate.)) Since just about anyone can have a vastly varying and totally subjective interpretation of what is or isn't "justifiable"/"unjustifiable" within a fictional work, and the original coiner of the term herself actually seems to have considered it an exclusively fanfiction specific issue..where it was really only even an issue at all because most people read fanfiction primarily for the canon characters and not for the original characters, regardless of who the POV character is or not, so it was often a problem to readers if your fanfiction was about an original character exploring a particular pre-existing fictional world rather than being so much if at all about the existing canon characters exploring new plotlines/worlds[/etc.]-but also because it often enough tended to stem specifically from /immature/inexperienced writing that just hadn't quite really learned yet how to fully balance &/or flesh everything out.
I kind of fell out of active participation in fanfic and fandom spheres, in general, for a while[ in the later 2010s] though; so I didn't really keep up with the Mary Sue discussion//debate/ after that..and because of that I was actually a bit surprised when the term [re]surfaced at all specifically surrounding things like Star Wars(Rey) or the WoT TV series, because I seem to remember people[ at least the ones in the circles I used to frequent] commonly leaning more toward the idea that a character couldn't be a Mary Sue at all outside of a fanfiction specific context. (Which is why, as I remenber it, the debate was also very much wrapped-up in whether or not anyone should ever write fanfics with Original-Characters in them at all; almost entirely regardless of if they were Mary Sues or not.) But, obviously, that has changed-or, perhaps, was always so[ just outside my own personal circles] unbeknownst to me.
Much of the timeline/debate/evolution of Mary Sue is actually chronicled on Fanlore's _'Mary Sue'_ page, and on their _'Canon Sue'_ page and their page for the *_'Trekkie's Tale'_* satire [fan]fic itself, with reference sources included/cited and directly linked wherever possible...including an interview with the original coiner of the term & creator of the [in]famous fanfic herself. (tvtropes also has a "Common Mary Sue Traits" page, among other Mary Sue pages.) For anyone curious and/or not already well-informed.
But that's basically 50yrs of information compiled/summarized in one place, so brace yourself and buckle in for a ton of reading if you do dive down that rabbit hole.
((Definitely recommend people at least reading up on how the original coiner of the term defined Mary Sues in general herself and why she wrote the fic that coined the term though.! ^-^))
I personally remember fic writers back in those days[ during the beginning of the 2000s] being hesitant sometimes to even write Original-Characters[ especially female ones] in their fanfics at all too, and sometimes even being afraid to openly admit to even just being female writers in general, specifically because of all the _extreme_ wank that was out there largely or tangentially surrounding Mary Sues[ and original characters or AU/AltReality!fics versus the 'canon as absolute word of god' type fics] and/or female pleasure or (personal-fantasy)wish-fulfillment and such in general. A near-perfect successor to published authors printing their work under neutral or opposite-gender pen names(especially depending on their publishing genre), really. And I don't recall most people, at that point, even knowing or discussing at all where the term "Mary Sue" had actually even first been coined; it was kind of just one of many fandom terms that simply "were", in general, but just happened to be the one which everyone was arguing the absolute most about what it even was or was-not & if it was actually bad or good.
Nowadays, nothing really seems to have changed-it's just gone more "mainstream" and larger-scale, extending now beyond just the mere fanfic niche/sphere alone. At least, with regards to the Mary Sue debates. (But not per se with writers being openly female, which is fortunately pretty much just completely typical now; although I think female-pleasure &/or [personal-fantasy ]wish-fulfillment in general is still a bit more of a work-in-progress sometimes.)
Mary Sue is a messy-messy term(in my opinion), with a messy/loaded/ history. It started out[ I believe] supposedly with the best of intentions, simply aiming to help writers improve the depth/dimension & nuance of their characters and stories for the maximum possible /enjoyment/appreciation of readers, but [I think ]it has turned sour and basically just warped into this massive near-blind!hatedom now more than ever. I feel like it _could_ be capable of holding constructive merit(s), in some cases; but, as it is, I think it largely isn't constructive anymore at all and most times would almost be better served deleted altogether from the collective consciousness of everyone everywhere.😅😅🙃😁😁😁 Loll
_(((if any of that even made any coherent sense^^ Loll)))_
Most of my favorite books have the chosen one and I am fine with that! lol
lol same like I'm listing all those movies and books and I'm like...yeah I like them all
I wonder if people think Kvothe (from Name of the Wind) is a chosen one type of story. I know people call him a Gary Stu all the time (which I see why but also don’t agree with) he constantly feels like he is the internal force driving stuff forward. Chosen ones usually have lots of external forces telling them how they are chosen I think
Oh, and I think the original The Matrix movie is a good chosen one trope as well!
If you have a chance, read P. C. Hodgell's Kencyrath series. I love those books, eagerly awaiting the next one.
You can spoil yourself on tvtropes about how well she does tropes in her own way, or have the reviews on Goodreads back me up on how great a series it is. 😊
Some of my favorite chosen one stuff is when the person who chose that “one” isn’t trustworthy.
Yes absolutely! What books do you like most that do that? (Or shows or movies)
Lord of the Rings: Aaragorn is definitely the chosen one; however, the true hero in the story are Samwise Gamgee. Frodo would never had made it into Mount Doom where the ring was ultimately destroyed without Sam carrying him there. I think Sam carried Frodo in a spiritual sense throughout the book (books if you want to go by how Lord of the Rings was published). He then literally carried Frodo that last bit when Frodo couldn't continue.
Of course Sam is one of the hero of LOTR, but you can be a hero without being chosen! That’s where I think people get confused
True, both points made. 🙂
It's interesting that all the examples you gave of great chosen one stories have some sort of a twist to it. In my opinion, it shows that the chosen one is a great trope to base some sort of twist or subversion of expectation upon, but boring if you play it straight.
Facts
I think the Chosen One is disliked for 2 reasons: 1) it leads to what I call "discontinuity," in which the CO's abilities are unjustified or over the top, so awesome that he himself doesn't understand them, and the reader doesn't either. Luke Skywalker's ability to pilot an X-wing has always been dangerously close to this line. When I was a kid I always raised this objection, but as an adult I'm willing to let it go. 2) the second objection to the CO results from a postmodernist and rather junior high level style of criticism that simply wants there to be no good guys. Obviously that's stupid, and the idea that we need to tear apart all the good things in the world to make the world a better place is completely backwards and juvenile.
Best current CO story: The Black Witch Chronicles by Laurie Forest, particularly because everyone knows who the CO ought to be, but she ends up becoming a rebel and not doing what she's supposed to do as the CO.
But luke isn’t a chosen one, Anakin is! Although Anakin’s skill I think is also tentative lol but since he turns into a villain I think it gets overlooked.
But I agree that I like stories with some straight up heroes. I don’t mind if they aren’t all gray 😅
This is kind of amusing[ & interesting] to me because I think typically it is young people who are actually more willing to overlook inexplicable power/skill/ levels and grown-ups who are much quicker to criticize or condemn something for imbalanced skill/power-leveling or its implausible-ness[ or such]. 🙂
@@Bookborn Luke isn't a prophesied one, per se... but it's always been argued if it was truly Anakin or actually Luke['s influence acting on Vader] who really brought balance to the force. And Luke always had very much in common with Chosen Ones since he not only had significance as sort of "hidden royalty"(as secretly force-sensitive/Vader's son) but also as basically the last force sensitive person in the entire galaxy who wasn't a sith[ or old enough to be pretty much on their death-bed already] and the literal only person capable doing things that pretty much no one else in the entire universe can do[ despite the fact that once upon a time there were more/others who could too] no matter if he was "plucked from obscurity" intentionally or purely by chance/coincidence & or in fact perhaps even because secretly maybe the force and/or destiny was at work making it pretty much inevitable all along-at least right up until "there is another", which still never actually really panned out into much anyhow, especially when not counting either the former(legends) or current(disney) expanded universe continuities which didn't always exist; and the goodguys AND the badguys both kept setting their sights on him as if anyone getting Luke on their side was super important and covetable/desirable[ could turn-the-tide / tip-the-scales type] outcome OR something in dire need by either side of being blocked/prevented from aligning with the other side or whatever quite specifically in order to either directly undermine or bolster the rebellion's hope-like people were kinda just "sensing" how potentially powerful or important Luke was pretty much left and right. I can definitely appreciate why you still don't see Luke as a chosen one yourself, but I can also definitely see why some people do[ or have] though. I don't think it really changes or affects much, either way, whether he was or wasn't though.
But, yeah, I'm with you completely though about not always needing every hero/story to be gray at all! ☺️🙂😊😁💖
I couldn't very well talk about my impressions of Star Wars as a child and include the prequels. I was born before The Empire Strikes Back was released. I'd rather pretend the prequels just don't exist. Just because they say Anakin Skywalker was "THE Chosen One" in the movie doesn't mean he actually was. The original trilogy was a perfectly well wrapped-up story. "Anakin" is backstory and never needed his own movie.
@@JoelAdamson Fair enough. 🙂
But, at the same time, the original trilogy never technically "needed" to exist at all in the first place either. The earth or human life in general wouldn't have ceased to exist without the OT's creation. But George Lucas wanted to create it, and so he did; but then he wanted to quit making it for a while, until [eventually ]he wanted to create the PT as well, so he did all of that too. Everyone is entitled to whatever opinions/thoughts/feelings[/etc.] they have about any of it. But at the end of the day, I don't think whether or not it was absolutely needed really gets to decide what creative content any creator does or doesn't[ or should] get to make, it really only matters that it was their content and they wanted to create it-for better or for worse.
I actually completely agree that characters believing/claiming Anakin was "THE Chosen One" in the movies definitely does not necessarily guarantee that it was actually true, though. ^-^
(And I do actually have my own share of movies/books/games or such, in various franchises, that I just pretend don't or aren't personally considered canon in my own mind myself too; so I totally get/respect that impulse.😅😁☺️😊😂)
Great video! Often I hear that this trope is the worst but I never hear good reasons why. Maybe it’s because it’s over used but I can’t think of a property that I really hated the use of the trope. Though I don’t consider myself well versed in the fantasy genre. Maybe if I read more in the genre I would feel the same as others.
I wonder if it's more overused currently in YA? Haven't been reading much YA recently, so that's totally baseless, but just an idea. I think it may also be a symptom of people labeling all hero's as chosen ones.
@@Bookborn Maybe… I haven’t read a lot of YA recently. The ones I have read have been more Mary Sue than chosen ones at least in my opinion
The thing is, I don't think people necessarily have to dislike the use of something in order to get sick of seeing it and start wanting to see different things instead-and then it's not so much the thing itself they hate as they really just end up resenting the fact that they keep seeing it even when they don't want to instead of seeing other things like they want. That seems to be a large chunk of the "Chosen One" trope hatedom that I've personally seen in people over the years. 🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️ (but I could always be wrong) Lol
@@LEOrgill I've encountered a fair lot of people before who basically seem to think of Chosen Ones AS Mary Sues, and kind of[ to a lesser extent maybe] vice-versa, too actually.👀 😅😅 Lol🤣
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 If the chosen one isn’t well, it could be both a Mary Sue and a chosen one. In my opinion the tropes are different.
“Chosen one” stories aren’t what I’m looking for when I look to read Fantasy at the moment, however I do love a good “chosen one” story.
ASOIF kinda ruined me when I was in my teens and picked up the first book in the early 00’s. I didn’t know fantasy stories could be written that way. Up until then I read HP, LotR and WoT. So yeah that first book blew my mind. Storm of Swords completely blew my mind and now I lean more towards the grim dark side, if the book isn’t authored by Sanderson lol.
However, what I do hate now is that once GoT show became a cultural phenomenon (alongside with the Walking Dead)…the anyone can die trope has entered the scene, especially with shows, and now it’s been further bastardized into the “fakeout death” trope. Thankfully this is only a real problem in cinema, WoT season 1 I’m looking at you..but I’ll take something like Malazan over any chosen one series every time at this point in my life.
One thing HP and WoT did extremely well was give their chosen ones a sense of dying.
Spoilers: I thought Harry would die at the end and was kinda disappointed lol. As for Rand, I knew how his story would end, but how he got there and the ending was perfect for me. WoT also had so many great characters that weren’t “safe”. When it came to LoTR, although you say it isn’t a chosen one book, I love the series but at no point did I have a fear for any of the characters.
Cheers.
I love the chosen one trope!!!
Yeah, for me. The chosen one needs to be prophesized, or a slighted heir. Or the only one who can fulfil a particular role. I have to agree, Katniss isn't a chosen one. She wasn't destined to overthrow Snow, or District 1. People rallied behind her, but it could've been any champion. I like the difference between Harry Potter (with a chosen one protagonist), and Fantastic Beasts, with Newt absolutely not being a chosen one. I just wish there was a more coherent story behind it.
But the way _Fantastic Beasts_ kind of just switches about like changing winds does kind of exactly mirrors Newt's whole entire personality and philosophy / approach to life, too. In a way.
DUNE is the best chosen one story imo. It's such a great use of showing how a chosen one style person can become galvanized and harmful to it's society.
Great video!!! 💜💜💖 😊
I disagree with you with regards Bilbo and Frodo. While you are right about there not being specific prophecies about them there are some pretty solid implications that Eru Ilúvatar took a hand in manipulating their involvement and roles in destroying the ring, so they are quite literally chosen by (their in world) god to help save the world.
I agree with mostly everything else though, there's nothing wrong with a chosen one trope done well. But then the same can be said for absolutely any trope, it's really only when they are done badly the problems with tropes arise.
I think Frodo and Bilbo can be argued either way. I haven't read Silmarillion yet, but I've heard stuff in there may change my mind about it.
The Chosen One is something where people agree the concept is bad, but can't think of any stories that use it badly; at least not any stories that are not bad in so many other ways that this specific one does not matter.
I always thought 2 Jedi and 2 Sith was bringing balance to the force. So from a certain point of view killing all but two Jedi was bringing balance to the force.
That's not the balance. The Sith, by nature, cannot be in balance with the Force. They don't live in balance with the Force, they force it do what they want.
The Jedi are supposed to live in balance with the Force, but lost sight of that by the time of the Fall of the Republic, and became too rigid in their ways.
I always thought that the desire to bring balance to the force was pretty stupid.
The Jedi had the upper hand... why would they WANT to be equal to the Sith?
Always seemed stupid to me...
Sure enough... Anakin "brings balance" by killing the Younglings...
@@Nyet-Zdyes The conflict between the Jedi and the Sith wasn't really about balance. The Sith bend the Force to their will, and thus, they can never be IN balance with the Force, because it isn't a concern of theirs. The Sith path is about pure power.
The Jedi, on the other hand, try to live in balance with the Force, which is why they never try to attain things such as immortality and the like. They see the Force as a living entity, and a fundamental part of the nature of the galaxy.
The issue of the end of the Old Republic, is that the Jedi had become too dogmatic, too bound to old tradition, with a narrower and narrower definition of being in balance with the Force, while at the same time, becoming an arm of the Republic government, taking them away from the balance of the Force. We see this in the fact that they considered a 9-year-old "too old" to join, or the prohibition against loving anyone.
@@dragonstryk7280 I didn't do any but the first 4 books to come out, so the only "lore" I got about "returning balance" was the stuff in the prequel trilogy...
which just didn't make any sense to me,
I always saw Anakin killing the Younglings as "returning the balance" by "evening" the numbers...
Thanks for the explanation.
Two different definitions[ or 'senses' / usages] of the word: "balance".
One meaning = 'equal[ity]', 'level[-ness]', or 'even[-ness]'.
The other meaning = 'peace' or 'harmony'/'unity'/'one'ness.
(Because...English/language/ is great, like that! 🤣🤣😶🙃😅😁😂)
Great video! Speaking of the original chosen one, you might also consider that fiction imitates real life, and that there are nonfiction sources with prophecies and heroes selected. For instance, Noah was chosen out of his generation to save humanity, although there were no prophecies of that. Same with David, chosen by Samuel to become the king of Israel, only achieving that much later. Obviously Jesus himself could be an example, with plenty of prophecies leading up to his ministry, but the "choosing" part is a little strange there, depending on your beliefs. These all predate King Arthur, and the Jewish Scriptures predate the Greek era.
Yeah I get a little iffy talking about religion as literature, for obvious reasons, but it's true that these types of stories have been around since the beginning.
Nice vid. Thank you
The issues I have with Chosen Ones is that sometimes I don't want to know how the book/series will end 20 pages in after being introduced to the Chosen One and the Great Evil. They also tend to start reluctant and whiney. "But I have to go I into Taschi and pick up some power converters!"
Luke isn't a chosen one though, he's just an idiot in the beginning 🤣 I appreciate Luke as a hero though, I feel like he's under appreciated. Dude is just being a teen.
Yeah, I think that concern though is why an author has to work hard with it. Either the end battle has to have a twist, OR the journey has to be interesting enough that the destination being somewhat known is ok.
@@Bookborn I disagree that Luke isn't a Chosen One; and I don't really think him being an idiot or just being a teenager really rules that out at all either...but I can accept that, if you do believe a chosen one always has to be a specifically prophesied[ or at least divinely-chosen/predestined/] chosen one, he doesn't quite make that cut; and fully respect everyone's right(s) to define things slightly differently from one person to another. Lol
Completely agree the author does have to put a little more thought/care/effort or such into it, overall, when there is a Chosen One though. For sure.😊
Here's the thing.... for me, I continually entertain the idea that [even when I have good reason to suspect a particular story/plot/situation/whatever will pan out in a particular kinda way ]I never really know for absolutely sure until I see how it ends, so until I do there is then technically always a chance that it could end in tragic failure(or something) instead. 🤣🤣🤣 So, my own brain can keep it interesting exploring every possible what-if scenario I can think of, almost regardless of what's actually in the story or not. (But that's just a me thing 😁) Lolll ^^
I often feel that the majority of 'chosen ones' prophecies really struggle to justify their inclusion particularly as a lot of them would function just as well if it wasn't included. As they inherently both make the story more predictable and take a lot of agency away from the characters (It feels like the hero must destroy the dark lord or what ever because the plot tells them to and not because their character wants to do it). I know that authors try to add motivation for the main character to fulfil their prophecy after they have already added a prophecy into the story. However this mostly feels like their putting the cart before the horse. I think a chosen one prophecy really needs to include a lot more than just a twist on their own trope to justify this. It really needs to add an aspect to the narrative in its own right.
The othering that always bothers me about this trope is that an accurate prophecy of any kind automatically means that the story is taking place in a deterministic universe. I know I'm a nerd who obsesses over small details but this barely ever addressed in any stories but it implies Harry and Nevil could have both ran off to Portugal and spent their days sunning them selves and still beaten Voldemort. This feels like its the case for the vast majority of prophecies focused plots. The only 2 times were I have seen this is addressed at all by the author is WOT and dune. While I don't love either of these francizes I excepted that the 'Chosen one' was necessary for the stories the author was trying to tell.
A lot of stories like HP would have been a lot better without it. Particularly as in the HP example Harry felt special well before the prophecy was introduced, well over half way through the series. My favourite example of a prophecy is the Lego Movie of all things because its wasn't true. It was made up by a character to influence other characters which apart from being a good twist it allowed for almost all the opportunities of a chosen one story with none of the baggage which comes along with it.
Frank Herbert's Dune took the chosen one trope and used it as a warning and red herring until the very end when the true chosen one is revealed.
Willow is one of the best "the Chosen One" stories. The baby is born that will bring the downfall of the evil queen Bavmorda...and she does, by being in a disappearing pig trick performed by a struggling farmer.
I find nothing to disagree with here! I am 100% on board with your definition of a Chosen One. In order for a character to be a "Chosen One" their mere existence must be presaged in some way. Katie's is not a Chosen One (capital letters), she is a chosen one (lowercase letters), chosen AFTER her entry to the plot. Same with Bilbo. The Ring didn't choose him BEFORE entering Goblin Town. The Ring chooses Bilbo when it is found, AFTER Bilbo runs into the "plot of the Ring".
Some variations on the Chosen One trope that have some potential (even if I haven't seen it do e well yet) includes a story with a Chosen One but a different character is the primary POV character. Another is "What if the Chosen One fails" and dies in the process? What then?!
Excellent essay.
I disagree that a Chosen One necessarily must be chosen _before_ the start of the story-especially if it is remotely possible that it may in some way still have been inevitable or destined to happen, I don't think we always have to see it already happened[ or even loudly(or quietly) trumpeted ahead of time for all to know was coming] for it to count. But that's just me.
I agree about the interesting possible variations on the Chosen One trope though! If only we were to see those variants done more often, we'd be sure to get some done-well versions of those eventually! 😊 Lol
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Perhaps I should say "before the inciting event" rather than before the story. But even that comes with caveats. As well, there will always be exceptions. But that is a general rule that works in my brain.
I would very much like to read (or even write) a story where the POV character only occasionally encounters the Chosen One, and not always as an ally. Perhaps the POVC would be slightly skeptical of "The One". That would be such a fun perspective shift!
@@kythian True, true. (And far be it from me to tell you how to classify what is or isn't qualifiable as a Chosen One to you! 😊) But I was going to say, I don't really think they would necessarily have to be chosen[ or at least certainly not revealed as such] even at or before the inciting incident either though.🤣🤣
Do/write/ it-I for one, at least, would definitely read that too! (And it's funny you should say that, I don't remember if I said it before or not, but I was literally just thinking at some point earlier while perusing the comments here how a Chosen One totally wouldn't necessarily have to be believed-in or immediately accepted by the other characters at all.🙀🤭💖 LOL)
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 Right! I think examining that skepticism of the Chosen One from a "normal" person's perspective could be a thought-provoking exercise. What does it mean to be told of the Chosen One's existence? How would that revelation impact the character’s world view? Would it challenge that world view? Support it? So many questions!
@@kythian Completely agreed-it's such a fascinating idea/concept! 🤍
I think, because both Chosen Ones and Mary Sues have mainstream popularity/notoriety, it's kind of inevitable that there is both an oversaturation of characters of that type in general _and_ an overuse of just slapping the label of those things onto anything even slightly close to them, even when it's not really actually that-thing at all.
Yes and just the age of the internet where we all want to contribute and comment on things and so misuse of labels get passed around even more quickly
@@Bookborn True. 😅
Question but in video games what do you think of a character like in skyrim( if you have ever played that game) being the chosen one.
I mean I think in some ways it’s even more fun in a video game lol because you’re playing as the character. I mean I enjoyed Skyrim anyway (I’ll admit I didn’t end up finishing it though my completionism bogged me down too much 😂)
@@Bookborn hey honestly I am in the same boat as you with that game so I agree but it is funny how in video games you/the character you are playing as always seems to be able to single handedly save the day just in general lol
"I thought I could be the chosen one..."
"IN YOUR DREAMS!"
Omg stop are you quoting Kung Pow
@@Bookborn Haha, yes! :)
(though I got the exact quote wrong lol )
Have you tried the "Percy Jackson" books?
No, for whatever reason I sort of "missed" those when I was young (too into Harry Potter and Artemis Fowl). But I plan on reading them with my son when he's old enough so I can experience it
my fav chosen one isn't a book, is Buffy the vampire slayer
You can like what you like. Tropes don’t need defending - not nearly as much as bad writing does.
... and bad writing doesn't DESERVE to be defended...
@@Nyet-Zdyes Okay, but what someone considers "bad writing"[ or "not"-bad] may not always be exactly the same from one person to another. And that's true, pretty much regardless of whether we mean the literal technical writing or if we actually just mean the storytelling overall-but *_especially_* if speaking of the storytelling aspect(s).
Wait bad writing needs defending??
@@Bookborn 🙀❕️👀 😅🤭🤣🤣💜😁
@@Bookborn Of course bad writing needs defending. Good writing is rarely attacked. It's only when the writing is questionable does somebody say, "Hey, wait, why did you do that? Why did you make that choice? What was this supposed to be?"
Exactly. Though Joe Abercrombie is an exception.
An exception to what? Has he written chosen ones? From the books I've read I don't think he has but maybe I'm missing something lol
@@Bookborn (Maybe they meant Joe Abercrombie is an exception to them liking a chosen one....like, _because_ he *doesn't* write them, but they still like them an Abercrombie written character anyhow?🤔🤷♀️🤷♀️😅😁 idk 👀 ☺️😂😸)
The chosen one isn't an inherently bad trope, I just don't think it adds anything. Like most any story that has it could just be told without it, and it would make the story more intriguing with the eventual outcome less known.
I see what you're saying(and there is some truth to it)... but, sometimes, the foretelling actually IS the entire story/intrigue, too, and it really wouldn't be the same story without it.
You were the Chosen One...!!!
[Shayne Topp has enters the chat]
The concept of a Chosen One is a genuine archetype. Having said that, it can certainly be done poorly.
True.
I think many people don't know what archetypes are, though; most people really only know what stereotypes are, and many people don't even see the distinction between stereotypes or archetypes and cliches either. 😅😅🙃☺️ Loll
I always hated the Chosen One trope. I really dislike it when there is one person (most of time it’s a dude) who somehow more important than everyone else.
But tbh almost all of my favorite stories have a chosen one. So, I guess I‘m a hypocrite. :D
I feel the chosen one trope comes from religion Moses, Jesus etc
Anakin shouldn't have been a Chosen One. There was no reason for it in the narrative, as just having him be strong in the Force would have been more than enough. It doesn't really serve anything, and nothing at all gets mentioned of it after the PT.
Luke wasn't a Chosen One. He was the one Obi-Wan thought could stop Vader, but that wasn't a prophecy, it was just what he believed to be true.
In Harry Potter, a ton is made of Harry's chosen status. He has a connection with Voldemort, and we even see that they can start to read one another through their shared link.
Nothing that anyone liked about the PT in Star Wars was dependent on Anakin being Jedi Jesus. It was more a distraction from a better story that could have been shown.
One could say that Anakin _was_ the Chosen One, perhaps, specifically *because* he was in fact just [exceptionally ]'strong in the Force'. (One could say that Luke was a Chosen One for, basically the same reason.)
I thought something about Vader having been meant to bring balance to the force was actually mentioned once or twice even in the original trilogy though? 🤔😅😁😁
Luke wasn't exactly _just_ 'the one Obi-Wan thought could stop Vader' though... I mean, there was more than just Obi-Wan who put their eggs all in that basket, believing Luke capable of greatness/standing-against-Vader/ or such. And you're forgetting to really consider *_why_* it was that Obi-Wan believed Luke could stop Vader in the first place-Luke had something within him(force-sensitivity) which basically nobody else in the entire universe had[ anymore], which pretty much almost-literally made him "The Only One" who could even possibly /stand-against/stop Vader. And Luke did have a very particular connection with Vader, specifically, too; being relatives, as they are, and all-and also being able to sense each other/ the force within each other/ in a way that few if any others can.
((But whether it was prophesied or not is only relevant IF you accept Bookborn's personal requisite that a Chosen One *_must_* have been foretold or chosen specifically by prophecy-which, not everyone actually does. ..Not to mention the fact that it's actually not completely impossible that Anakin _wasn't_ necessarily even actually the one that the prophecy had ever referred to at all[, it may have referred to someone else and simply no one ever truly realized or figured that out], and we could never actually know it either way; especially not if you don't treat every claim or statement spoken in a work of fiction as absolutely word-of-god truth, or if you treat the claims and beliefs of fictional characters [as at very least _possibly_ unreliable ]much like the ones of real-life persons. Lol))
But even though I'm actually not much of a Harry Potter fan, I did think that particular aspect was pretty nifty too.
( I don't think you should really speak in such broad generalizations though.... you have literally zero way of knowing what _everyone_ did or didn't actually like about the prequel trilogy or not. You can really only speak for yourself, and maybe for what you have or haven't personally heard before from others thus far; but it's extremely unlikely[ maybe even impossible] that you have heard from literally everyone. And what would or wouldn't have been a "better" story is an entirely subjective thing, too; pretty much any person could find totally different things "better", or even NOT-"better" at all, than someone else does. )
Yes I always feel like I have to tell everyone that Luke isn’t a chosen one, he’s a hero, it’s very different.
I def think him being born of the force is weird and unnecessary. But I’ll admit I like the prophecy of bringing balance to the force. That phrase is a staple of Star Wars now I feel like!
@@Bookborn It gets a little murkier, in certain cases(like Luke's), if you don't actually think prophecy specifically is the necessary or defining distinction; or if you personally question how accurately that particular prophecy necessarily was or wasn't interpreted for sure in Star Wars canon(like since you don't actually have to believe that canon characters always know or are completely right anout everything or such). But, apart from that, I do actually agree with you. 🙂🤍
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 In fact, he still wasn't a Chosen One. Other Force Sensitives existed, they were just getting hunted down and killed, or turned to the Empire.
There were also other Jedi out there who had nothing to do with Like during the OT. Asohka for one, Grogu is a other in the current canon. That's leaving out the original EU entirely, with characters like Horus C'Boath.
Luke isn't Chosen, not by prophecy, and not even by power. That gap's now widens with every new Star War characters.
Luke wasn't even all that GOOD with the Force until RotJ, and he had to spend a lot of time training
Again, Luke is not a Chosen One. As Yoda said, "No, there is another". Ben might have gone all-in, but Yoda had a side bet.
@@dragonstryk7280 just to be clear... I never said my personal stance is that Luke actually was [for absolutely sure..or even at all..]a Chosen One-I'm really only saying that I can understand BOTH why some people interpret Luke as being one AND why some people interpret Luke as not being one at all. Regardless of who actually does or doesn't agree with either stance.
I'm not saying your own way of looking at it needs to change. I'm just saying that different people might have different ways of looking at it themself, or different reasons for looking at particular things in a certain way[ and/or NOT in a certain way] that differ from your own...and I think that's actually alright.
I think it's actually okay for different people to have slightly different ways of defining what a Chosen One actually is or isn't. And I think it's okay for different people to feel differently about which character is or isn't exactly even a Chosen One at all. So, I think it's fine if some people think a Chosen One must be prophesied first, while other people feel a Chosen One really need only be somehow destined or fated to be or do a particular thing that no one else can or will do/be..&/or need only be the only one with a certain kind of power or ability..OR/AND need only be the only one who can and will actually do a particular largely-significant thing at all[ in general].
If the prophecy[ about bringing balance to the force] which people think was about Anakin was actually about Luke, then *LUKE* (not Anakin) would be the Chosen One by prophecy. ((And there were plenty of people who actually believed that this was in fact the case, at least back when the prequel trilogy first came out.))
The EU may have retconned Luke out of being a Chosen One eventually, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't one[ in the original trilogy before that retconning happened]-and that doesn't mean that every person has to agree the retcon or EU!continuity is actually relevant to whether Luke is or isn't a Chosen One within the movies in general or within the original trilogy specifically. (Nevermind the fact that there are plenty of people who don't know the expanded universe at all-who ONLY know the movies.)
The EU did not exist when the original trilogy was made. Within the original trilogy itself(not merely 'in the same era the OT was set as occurring during'), there were no other Force-sensitive or Jedi characters other than Luke and his mentors[ who die &/or were much too ill and advanced in age to save the day themselves], and nothing that was invented later on in the EU had any influence whatsoever on what role or purpose exactly Luke actually served or was intended to serve within the original trilogy. It doesn't really matter if later "canon" installments declared that 'oh actually there were lots of other force-sensitives around then too just elsewhere no one ever knew or saw them', because there is actually nothing shown literally within the original trilogy itself to specifically support that claim; people are free to view or interpret Luke's status as Chosen One[ or not] independently of what does or doesn't exist in the EU or outside of the original trilogy if they want, different people are going to feel differently about how relevant or mandatory versus optional the EU continuity actually is[ or should-be] or not, and I think that's actually okay.
In the original trilogy itself... [ _BEFORE_ anything in the EU was invented/canonized ] Luke was very much presented like the 'long-lost-hidden-heir' / 'last-of-his-kind' / 'plucked from obscurity and elevated into status by an inciting-incident & or wise old magical mentor' / 'only-hope-for-the-future' that Chosen Ones[ like King Arthur] typically are. Yoda telling Luke that The Force is strong in Luke's family and urging Luke to pay all he knows forward, specifically as a precursor to revealing that “there is another Skywalker”, could be interpreted as Yoda actually reinforcing Luke as the Chosen One meant to liberate the galaxy and/or secure the future of the Jedi[ perhaps even specifically by teaching the ‘other Skywalker’ all that Luke knows]-not necessarily meaning that Yoda had a side bet[ who maybe could have come in and been the one who defeated Vader &/or Palpatine instead of Luke], at all. (But the other Skywalker was actually Leia, although originally meant to be a whole new character entirely at least before that was retconned when the original trilogy was concluded, and the only time we ever see Leia use The Force within the original trilogy is when she senses that Luke needs help and knows where he is; which could easily be seen as just Luke using the force to reach out to and influence her as it could have been seen as her actually using the force herself[-at least, it could have been, before the Legends and then later Disney EU “canon” made it clear that it definitely was her; which different people either may or may-not agree should-be or is actually even canon at all]. But, either way, that could also possibly be interpreted as happening specifically because of how extra-super-special and important Luke is specifically as the Chosen One himself too. And the fact that the force was seemingly not strong enough in Leia for anyone else to know or sense it within her the way they did with Luke, or at least could be totally eclipsed by him so no one else seemingly noticed or cared at all about her instead of him[ unless you believe that her force-sensitivity & not her status as Princess or Rebel was actually why she got captured by Vader], suggests to me that she was probably less strong or less powerful with the force than Luke was...which means she likely could not have done much if any of what Luke does in the original trilogy in his place IF he hadn't done it or if he'd been removed from the plot entirely and was replaced as main protagonist by her instead...unless she & her force ability had been written completely differently[ and more like him & his ability] than it was. And there definitely wasn't any OTHER character[ just within the actual original trilogy itself] who didn't die, aside from Luke or Leia, who could have even possibly done what Luke did at all.) And there were other characters, like Leia &/or Vader; not just Obi-Wan or Yoda, who treated Luke like he was super-special and important[ specifically because of his Force capability] &/or possibly the very thing that could either bolster or undermine the rebellion's victory/morale entirely.
It is true that a Chosen One is not merely just any hero/protagonist type character. They are a character & or hero/protagonist specifically of a very particular kind, who is often[ though maybe not always] somehow more ‘super-extra-special’ than everyone or anyone else in the story in some way other than just because they are the primary protagonist or POV character who just happens to be finding themself in the midst of certain situations that literally anyone could have been in-and either might or might-not in fact literally be ‘the only one’ ever anywhere for all of time, & might or might-not also be a prophecy-come-true. But especially if you don't think a Chosen One necessarily needs to be the only one to have certain powers, or doesn't necessarily need everyone to know or believe in advance that they are a Chosen One at all; or if you believe that a Chosen One doesn't need to be [necessarily ]‘the-most-powerful-one-of-all’[ so overpowered they don't even have to get good at it], nor be a totally instantaneous natural who gets good right away or does everything really well ridiculously easily without even trying. And especially IF you *do* believe a Chosen One really just needs to be the only one who can and/or will do a particular largely-significant thing[ specifically because of who or what they actually/literally are & not just because of the mere role or position they happen to take/fill within the story/plot itself as main/POV character], & or need only be somehow externally meant/fated/destined to do such[ especially by something somehow “more” than or beyond just circumstances alone such as a prophecy but not necessarily always or only-ever a prophecy], yet not necessarily always BOTH super-special AND fated or prophesied; or if you believe Luke was actually the one who brought balance to the force[ &/or was somehow meant to be so all along] and not Vader/Anakin.
There are other ways of looking at just about anything. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to believe that other ways of looking at things are getting it exactly right just to acknowledge that there are [kind of ]actual reasons why some people do. And it almost doesn't even matter if you or other people are actually even getting everything exactly right or not, because fiction is fiction[ it's NOT fact] and even fact can sometimes be or mean subjectively very different things to one person than to another person, nevermind art/entertainment/philosophy or anything else.
How about the bible? That seems like The first instance of a chosen one I can think of in literature.