@@exploringtheologychannel1697 should the "main" goal be to find Truth? Then a secondary goal of modeling how to converse while we disagree as Christians? Should the guest and yourself be pointed towards the logos, and attempting to learn from each other? I have an idea about these concepts obviously, but genuinely curious to know how you will respond to these questions. For everyone reading, I am not a provisionist, nor a calvinist (or reformed in any way), nor a Baptist or etc. Do not claim a label other than a follower of "The Way" (I know it sounds holier than thou, just added for clarity of the question). Love ya man, thanks for always being amicable!
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 How can Leighton confirm the Perseverance of the saints or “eternal security” as he calls it? How can Saving Faith that perseveres not be a miraculous gift , given to the Elect? I wouldn’t think that Election and Perseverance of the saints can be separated. if Ephesians 1:13-14 says that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance , and Matthew 13:18-23 says all people even those with “bad soil” can receive the Gospel with joy, but only those With “good soil” persevere. if 1 John 2:19-20 says those who commit apostasy were not given the Holy Spirit, And Leighton Confirms those who are given the Holy spirt persevere, Then I can’t understand In his view what separates the future apostate In Matthew 13:20-21 , “the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises he falls away “, …. what separates that person from the Holy Spirit sealed believer in Matthew 13:23 is “the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”” If Leighton doesn’t believe the difference is works based and believes the difference is the Holy Spirit for one and not the other. How can he then deny God’s Election through regeneration and perseverance? Am I off base here?
All these little Calvinism off shoots are just progressive reactions to to contradictions within there own systems , in other words excuses rather than admitting it's not a sound system
CALVINISM: "SINCE THOU WAS PRECIOUS IN MY SIGHT, THOU HAST BEEN HONOURABLE." (ISAIAH 43:4) CALVINISM: "WITHHOLD NOT THOU THY TENDER MERCIES FROM ME, O LORD: LET THY LOVINGKINDNESS AND THY TRUTH CONTINUALLY PRESERVE ME." (PSALM 40:11) CALVINISM: "THE LORD KILLETH, AND MAKETH ALIVE: HE BRINGETH DOWN TO THE GRAVE, AND BRINGETH UP. THE LORD MAKETH POOR, AND MAKETH RICH: HE BRINGETH LOW, AND LIFTETH UP." (1 SAMUEL 2:6-7) CALVINISM: "HE WILL KEEP THE FEET OF HIS SAINTS, AND THE WICKED SHALL BE SILENT IN DARKNESS: FOR BY STRENGTH SHALL NO MAN PREVAIL." (I SAMUEL 2:9) CALVINISM: THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT MADE ME, AND FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB, WHICH WILL HELP ME; FEAR NOT, MY SERVANT; AND THOU, FREELANCE PUBLIC FULLTIME GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. CALVINISM: "IT IS THE LORD: LET HIM DO WHAT SEEMETH HIM GOOD" (HOLY SCRIPTURE/KJV) CALVINISM: "BY WHOM [I] HAVE RECEIVED GRACE, FOR OBEDIENCE TO HIS FAITH FOR HIS NAME." ~ Romans 1:5 CALVINISM: "YOUR FATHER KNOWETH WHAT THINGS YE HAVE NEED OF, BEFORE YE ASK HIM." ~ Matthew 6:8 CALVINISM: "GOD IS JUDGE: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE, AND SETTETH UP ANOTHER." ~ Psalm 75:7 CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME." ~ Psalm 71:3 CALVINISM: "AND THE LORD DIRECTS YOUR HEARTS INTO THE LOVE OF GOD." (II Thessalonians 3:5) CALVINISM: "THIS IS MY REST FOREVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT" (Psalm 132:14) CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GRANTED ME LIFE AND FAVOUR, AND THY VISITATION HAS PRESERVED MY SPIRIT." - JOB 10:12 CALVINISM: "FOR WHOSO FINDETH ME FINDETH LIFE, AND SHALL OBTAIN FAVOUR OF THE LORD." - PROVERBS 8:35 CALVINISM: "BE THOU MY STRONG HABITATION, WHEREUNTO I MAY CONTINUALLY RESORT: THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME; FOR THOU ART MY ROCK AND MY FORTRESS." - PSALM 71:3 CALVINISM: "BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND [JOHN STEWART] HAS CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM [HIM]." (LUKE 10:42 [MODIFIED]) CALVINISM: BUT HE IS IN ONE MIND. AND WHO CAN TURN HIM? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH." (JOB 23:13) CALVINISM: "BUT HE KNOWETH THE WAY THAT I TAKE: WHEN HE HAS TRIED ME, I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD." (JOB 23:12) CALVINISM: "...BUT THAT JESUS ALSO SHOULD GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD." (JOHN 11:52) CALVINISM: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants." (Luke 12:36-38) CALVINISM: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." (Isaiah 25:9) CALVINISM: "I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live." (Psalm 116:1-2) CALVINISM: "HAVING LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, HE LOVED THEM UNTO THE END." (JOHN 13:1) CALVINISM: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48) CALVINISM: "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (PROVERBS 24:12) CALVINISM: "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." (Job 42:2) CALVINISM: "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it." (Ezekiel 17:24) CALVINISM: "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;" (Ezekiel 20:25) CALVINISM: "GOD QUICKENETH THE DEAD, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." (Romans 4:20) CALVINISM: "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me." (Jeremiah 27:5) CALVINISM: "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever." (Psalm 41:12) CALVINISM: "THE LORD GOD HAS OPENED MINE EAR,..." (Isaiah 50:5a) CALVINISM: "I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." (Isaiah 46:11) CALVINISM: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Genesis 18:19) CALVINISM: "Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:" (Psalm 10:17) CALVINISM: "We do not present our supplications before you for our righteousness, but for your great mercies." (Daniel 9:18.) CALVINISM: "IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WILL WITH MINE OWN? IS THINE EYE EVIL, BECAUSE I AM GOOD? (MATTHEW 20:15) CALVINISM: "HE SEALETH UP THE HAND OF EVERY MAN; THAT ALL MEN MAY KNOW HIS WORK." (JOB 37:7) CALVINISM: "GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH." (ROMANS 12:3) CALVINISM: "WHEN THOU SAIDST, SEEK YE MY FACE; MY HEART SAID UNTO THEE, THY FACE, LORD, WILL I SEEK." (PSALM 27:8) CALVINISM: "LET THY HAND BE UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, UPON THE SON OF MAN WHOM THOU MADEST STRONG FOR THYSELF." (PSALM 80:17) CALVINISM: "GOD IS FAITHFUL, BY WHOM YE WERE CALLED UNTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." (1 CORINTHIANS 1:9) CALVINISM: "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING, BRETHREN, HOW THAT NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, ARE CALLED:" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:26) CALVINISM: "I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, IT: AND IT SHALL BE NO MORE, UNTIL HE COME WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; AND I WILL GIVE IT HIM." (EZEKIEL 21:27) GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART HBH AT EMAIL DOT COM _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Read the recent book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" by Ken Wilson, if you want to understand the origin of the doctrine. Augustine was attempting to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it could have nothing to do with the will of the child. It must be based on the will of another.
The problem with Wilson's book is that it is VERY biased, and as a result it is not well researched; it is an example of what happens to scholarship whenever someone has an axe to grind. As Raymond A. Blacketer has once rightly commented, “There is a trajectory of thought in the Christian tradition running from the Patristic era through the Middle Ages that stresses a specific, particular and defined purpose of God in salvation; but it is a minority position and is frequently ambiguous” (“Definite Atonement in Historical Perspective,” pg 313). In fact, John Gill was convinced that there were significant traces of the doctrines of grace detectable in the Patristic authors, therefore, in his work, “The Cause of God and Truth,” he lists 33 Patristic authorities where the doctrines of grace may be found (mostly in defense of definite atonement). The issues surrounding what we now call "Calvinism" MASSIVELY predate the life and thought of John Calvin, so for someone to call it a "Calvinist" doctrine (when his own relationship to the doctrine of definite atonement is a matter of debate) is historically misleading. So why in the early church was the discussion of the doctrines of grace, specifically definite atonement a “minority position and is frequently ambiguous?” From the beginning of the Patristic era, the fathers had to deal with the elitism and exclusivism of various Gnostic groups, which led them to stress the universalism of the Christian gospel and, understandably, to downplay the particularity of the cross-work of Christ. Also, the need to avoid Greco-Roman fatalism, much of it the result of popular Stoicism, issued in a concern to stress the freedom of the human will, and this, in turn, served to diminish any desire to discuss the extent of the atonement. Because of that, people like Wilson and Flowers treat the doctrines of grace as if they are something new that was dreamed up out of Gnosticism; the truth is actually quite the opposite.
@@SpotterVideo I tried to get through it, but it just wasn't honest scholarship, so I set it aside. He expects his audience to have never read the patriarchs for themselves; I have, so I cannot possibly buy his premise. Have you read the patriarchs and Wilson's book?
@@lawrencestanley8989 I read the original long version of Dr. Wilson's project, and this shorter version of Wilson's reading of all of Augustine's writings in the original languages. If you have not read either of Wilson's books on the matter, it is going to be hard for others to take your assessment seriously.
@@SpotterVideo I've read the patriarchs, therefore I can't take Wilson seriously. Have you read the patriarchs? If not, then no one should take you seriously.
Regarding God's knowledge, foreknowledge, can He learn, etc. I'll just throw this out there because it's what I hold to: "One cannot profitably discuss God's foreknowledge, because it is clearly a part of God's thoughts that are higher than man's (Is. 55:9)." ~ Spiros Zodhiates (excerpted from commentary on Gen. 22:12) I submit that where God has chosen to remain silent so then should His children. That said, I will also say that I have a real problem when folks try to twist and turn Scripture into something other than the plain reading of the text when there's no indication that it doesn't say just what it says. Like "For now I know" in the above Scripture or the times in Jeremiah when God specifically says he did not decree something nor did it even enter His mind. I see no reason to take it for anything other than it says and I would submit that a quickness to do so is a severe lack of fear of the Lord. So I agree with what both Leighton and JD said.
Interesting. The Calvinists I've come across claim that even if the devil hadn't deceived Adam, he still would've sinned. A danger of Christianity is falling trusting wholly in "human-inspired" doctrines. There's nothing wrong with holding a view, but there's everything wrong when you neglect Scriptural verses and twist them to suit your doctrine.
CALVINISM: "WITHHOLD NOT THOU THY TENDER MERCIES FROM ME, O LORD: LET THY LOVINGKINDNESS AND THY TRUTH CONTINUALLY PRESERVE ME." (PSALM 40:11) CALVINISM: "THE LORD KILLETH, AND MAKETH ALIVE: HE BRINGETH DOWN TO THE GRAVE, AND BRINGETH UP. THE LORD MAKETH POOR, AND MAKETH RICH: HE BRINGETH LOW, AND LIFTETH UP." (1 SAMUEL 2:6-7) CALVINISM: "HE WILL KEEP THE FEET OF HIS SAINTS, AND THE WICKED SHALL BE SILENT IN DARKNESS: FOR BY STRENGTH SHALL NO MAN PREVAIL." (I SAMUEL 2:9) CALVINISM: THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT MADE ME, AND FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB, WHICH WILL HELP ME; FEAR NOT, MY SERVANT; AND THOU, FREELANCE PUBLIC FULLTIME GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. CALVINISM: "IT IS THE LORD: LET HIM DO WHAT SEEMETH HIM GOOD" (HOLY SCRIPTURE/KJV) CALVINISM: "BY WHOM [I] HAVE RECEIVED GRACE, FOR OBEDIENCE TO HIS FAITH FOR HIS NAME." ~ Romans 1:5 CALVINISM: "YOUR FATHER KNOWETH WHAT THINGS YE HAVE NEED OF, BEFORE YE ASK HIM." ~ Matthew 6:8 CALVINISM: "GOD IS JUDGE: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE, AND SETTETH UP ANOTHER." ~ Psalm 75:7 CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME." ~ Psalm 71:3 CALVINISM: "AND THE LORD DIRECTS YOUR HEARTS INTO THE LOVE OF GOD." (II Thessalonians 3:5) CALVINISM: "THIS IS MY REST FOREVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT" (Psalm 132:14) CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GRANTED ME LIFE AND FAVOUR, AND THY VISITATION HAS PRESERVED MY SPIRIT." - JOB 10:12 CALVINISM: "FOR WHOSO FINDETH ME FINDETH LIFE, AND SHALL OBTAIN FAVOUR OF THE LORD." - PROVERBS 8:35 CALVINISM: "BE THOU MY STRONG HABITATION, WHEREUNTO I MAY CONTINUALLY RESORT: THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME; FOR THOU ART MY ROCK AND MY FORTRESS." - PSALM 71:3 CALVINISM: "BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND [JOHN STEWART] HAS CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM [HIM]." (LUKE 10:42 [MODIFIED]) CALVINISM: BUT HE IS IN ONE MIND. AND WHO CAN TURN HIM? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH." (JOB 23:13) CALVINISM: "BUT HE KNOWETH THE WAY THAT I TAKE: WHEN HE HAS TRIED ME, I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD." (JOB 23:12) CALVINISM: "...BUT THAT JESUS ALSO SHOULD GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD." (JOHN 11:52) CALVINISM: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants." (Luke 12:36-38) CALVINISM: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." (Isaiah 25:9) CALVINISM: "I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live." (Psalm 116:1-2) CALVINISM: "HAVING LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, HE LOVED THEM UNTO THE END." (JOHN 13:1) CALVINISM: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48) CALVINISM: "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (PROVERBS 24:12) CALVINISM: "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." (Job 42:2) CALVINISM: "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it." (Ezekiel 17:24) CALVINISM: "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;" (Ezekiel 20:25) CALVINISM: "GOD QUICKENETH THE DEAD, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." (Romans 4:20) CALVINISM: "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me." (Jeremiah 27:5) CALVINISM: "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever." (Psalm 41:12) CALVINISM: "THE LORD GOD HAS OPENED MINE EAR,..." (Isaiah 50:5a) CALVINISM: "I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." (Isaiah 46:11) CALVINISM: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Genesis 18:19) CALVINISM: "Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:" (Psalm 10:17) CALVINISM: "We do not present our supplications before you for our righteousness, but for your great mercies." (Daniel 9:18.) CALVINISM: "IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WILL WITH MINE OWN? IS THINE EYE EVIL, BECAUSE I AM GOOD? (MATTHEW 20:15) CALVINISM: "HE SEALETH UP THE HAND OF EVERY MAN; THAT ALL MEN MAY KNOW HIS WORK." (JOB 37:7) CALVINISM: "GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH." (ROMANS 12:3) CALVINISM: "WHEN THOU SAIDST, SEEK YE MY FACE; MY HEART SAID UNTO THEE, THY FACE, LORD, WILL I SEEK." (PSALM 27:8) CALVINISM: "LET THY HAND BE UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, UPON THE SON OF MAN WHOM THOU MADEST STRONG FOR THYSELF." (PSALM 80:17) CALVINISM: "GOD IS FAITHFUL, BY WHOM YE WERE CALLED UNTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." (1 CORINTHIANS 1:9) CALVINISM: "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING, BRETHREN, HOW THAT NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, ARE CALLED:" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:26) CALVINISM: "I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, IT: AND IT SHALL BE NO MORE, UNTIL HE COME WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; AND I WILL GIVE IT HIM." (EZEKIEL 21:27) GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART HBH AT EMAIL DOT COM _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
To Joel Suraj and Leighton I would ardently, adamantly, and most strongly disagree with the idea that the Gospel has changed and was different prior to Paul. There has ALWAYS been one and ONLY one way to be saved. By Grace thru Faith. JD answered that pretty well. I'd elaborate a bit more with "Lamb of God" stuff but I'll leave it there. JD's question to Leighton about God being able to save everyone was OUTSTANDING! Simply SUPERB!! That said I would have to answer with "I can't answer that because it's a fallacious question. It's a 'Can God make a round Square, square Circle, or married bachelor?'" Why? Because God can't do the illogical and He can't violate His nature. Man is the Imago Dei. Man made in God's image. God has Free-Will. He gave Man Free-Will and He can't violate that. Moreover we have EVIDENCE of such in Satan and the demons that followed Him. They were in the presence of God. They saw God is ALL His glory. They were in Heaven. And yet despite all that they rebelled. WHY did Satan and the demons rebel? To that I can only say for the same reason that Man does and would. WHY is that? I can only appeal to the same Mystery I did in my previous below.
18:00 OT vs NT ... God intervened on Jonah's ( Nineveh's Behalf ), But when Apostle Paul went to Jerusalem against the warnings of the brethren , HE didn't intervene despite the Calling of Paul was to the gentiles and wasted 2 years in a Jerusalem Jail , when perhaps his greatest 4th, 5th..?? journeys to places like Carthage, Rome ( 2 years earlier ), Spain, Gaul, Germania, England ..... and may have prolonged his ministry . Devine counterfactual only the LORD knows, but honored Paul's bad choices but did intervene to send him to Rome ( No recorded conversions in Acts since Jerusalem. shipwreck at Malta... )
Why do you quote John 6 knowing that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. It obvious, that Lord of Glory has not been lifted up, because in lifting Him up He will draw all me to Himself. Yes, it is true that the Lord chose his 12 disciples and His disciples did not choose Him. For they could not choose Him because He had not been lifted up. For even Jesus own disciples did not know who is was until the Father had revealed it to Peter. John writes in John 6 that no one comes to Christ unless he is taught by God. Obviously, there is a double meaning behind that lol. First, the 12 disciples are being taught by God prior to the resurrection because Jesus is God and second, we know that God teaching individuals will come in the new covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31 in which the Holy Spirit is poured out after Jesus death. So, yes, no one can come to the Son unless the Holy Spirit reveals Him but the Holy Spirit had not been unleashed until the Son was lifted up.
You'd think that this would be obvious for anyone who claims to know the gospel unto salvation. The fact that Jesus is the One speaking screams to the reader that He was still walking the earth. There was no gospel unto salvation in affect yet. Jesus had not been crucified, dead and buried. He had not risen. He had not ascended. The Helper (Holy Spirit) hadn't come to convict the WORLD of sin. (Not just a select few). Salvation was not obtainable by the hearing of the gospel. Only after Jesus had finished His work (lifted up) and rose again did this become possible. The death, burial and resurrection was the game changer. The fact that John 6:44 were the words of Christ should alert us of the changes on the horizon that will take place after He is lifted up.
@@ErnestHarris19 They were waiting for the promise. Like Abraham, they believed and it was credited as righteousness. There is no other name by which we are saved.
I have been watching Leighton Flowers for a couple of years. More often than not he has done a disservice to the Calvinist position by using derogatory and even downright inflammatory language in order to cast shadows on the doctrines of grace. Perhaps he should teach what Provisionists should hold to doctrinally instead of what they are against?
You said derogatory and inflammatory about Leighton Flowers. Great joke Pink Noise. Can you please give me your thoughts about James White and his language? What words would you describe his language as?
@@pinknoise365 So you assume Calvinism as an ad hominem against Leighton. Great job. You have an unhealthy obsession with this man, and it clouds your judgement. You calling Leighton inflammatory and derogatory is so obviously slander because its demonstrably wrong. Like hilariously wrong, not even remotely accurate. Which again, points out some Calvinism/James White idolatry in you I think. James White is literally the poster child for exactly what you accuse Leighton of. Most people dislike White due to his attitude and arrogance that is particular with other Christians. He is infamous for being inflammatory, which is what I find so ironic. So your slander is enough for me to discern you, but with a "trendy" icon of Calvin alongside devil horns hand sign is another. I think you need to look more into that hand gesture, because yes that's what it signifies. If you disagree, just put up an upside down cross too, since that symbolizes saint Peter. No, if you had the spirit you would probably already know not to give any visibility to that hand gesture. Step away from the keyboard, get off Leighton, and examine if you're in the faith.
_″...he has done a disservice to the Calvinist position by using derogatory and even downright inflammatory language in order to cast shadows on the doctrines of grace.″_ And Calvinists continue to insist that God is the one who unchangeably predetermined for Leighton to do exactly that for His own glory. _″Perhaps he should teach what Provisionists should hold to doctrinally instead of what they are against?"_ This is where the irrationality of Calvinism shines. You know full well that he can change what he′s teaching only if God decreed it; and yet, here you′re asking as though Leighton has the ability to do otherwise. Be consistent!
JD-"they are determinist who redefine free will" Could it be that people's definition of free will is more defined by the cultural influence of the time they are born in rather than what the authors of scriptures view of the will?
This conversation showed talking about the attributes of God in a Christlike manner can elevate to a form of worship. God bless you two and much love brothers!
The free offer of the gospel is one and the same for LF or JDM both to declare. The fact there is disagreement on “how” God has worked, is working, or will work in that salvation is a different topic. Yet it often gets lumped together, prompting calls of “different gospel,” or “no gospel for Calvinists” or “man-centered gospel.” Come on folks, cut the caricatures. A mistake I see too often is taking the “fullest logical extent” of a strand of one’s philosophy and using that to frame the whole system. Its not intellectually fair, or edifying. After watching hours of both these men, I have found their manners to be engaging and charitable. (sadly a rare thing today).
I completely agree. We must not take the most extreme view of a positions that hardly anyone holds as the “true” position. This is unfair and uncharitable.
What do you call a system that preaches that Jesus only died for some unconditionally chosen elect people, and "passes by" majority of people? A system that teaches that God determines and causes all things that come to pass, including child r*pe and murder... and those sinful acts ultimately "glorify" God? Does that sound like the Gospel of Christ or accurately portraying God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture? The Apostles tell us to stand firm and rebuke anyone who speaks perverse things, another Gospel, Jesus and God. There is a line that simply can not be crossed. Either you believe in THE Gospel of Christ or you don't. Calvinism is so far off, it is a whole different religion. We don't go around calling Muslims brothers and sisters, do we? It is important that Christians stand up and call out false doctrines that turn people away from Christ.
@@eiontactics9056 to equate those holding to a Calvinistic soteriology with Muslims proves my point of concern. I want edifying conversations. Based upon your reply, I don’t see how one can be had, so I will not engage your points.
I would argue if a person doesn't have free-will they can never be guilty of sin. Without free-will we are essentially like the animals, governed purely by instinct, so therefore there's nothing we can do about our behaviour! A human being also loses his personhood if he has no free-will.
Fascinating discussion and loving it. LOVE to watch two Brothers from different camps really get into the texts and wrestle what's said. SO MANY thoughts running thru my mind right now. Not sure I can even adequately enumerate them so as to make sense. So I'm just gonna throw some things out there as food for thought. First, I don't think the idea that it's accurate to say God punished all in Adam as was said. Second, I like the way that Leighton pushed and kept pushing the WHY. That said I don't think one has to boil it all down and wind up at Mystery. But I also don't think Leighton has it right either. Personally, I think too much is being read into the "have sinned" or "all sinned". But it would take WAY too much time and space to expound/expatiate (I don't like "flesh out") in a detailed systematic way that would connect all the dots from beginning to end. So, suffice it to say, that I see this all going back to The Fall and God removing His spirit from Adam and therefore all Men are born spiritually-dead IN SIN and as such their desire is to be their own God and they run from God just as Adam & Eve did. God came to them. They did NOT go to Him. God is Light and in Him there is NO darkness. Therefore Man does NOT come to God on His on. He "can" but He won't. It's NOT an "inability" but rather just as Jn. 3:19-20 says. They simply won't lest their sins be exposed. They KNOW that condemnation is what results if they do. I hope that makes sense. The question for me is WHY do some men come under the condemnation and conviction of the Holy Spirit and respond by crying out for Grace and Mercy while others harden their heart and runaway from God again. That is the mystery for me.
Hello JD, thanks for the clarification on the different Calvinism categories. You spoke of superlapsarian. A lot I have some across are really extreme. They go as far as saying God wanted Adam to sin so Christ would come. What I have noticed too is they place less emphasis on love and rather have a love of their "doctrine". This I'm afraid cannot be Godly, it's rather akin to demonic tendencies. Especially because their favorite topics are predestination and naming and shaming any other Believer who doesn't share their view. I once told some of them that I believe in predestination, but predestination goes hand in hand with our choices. They called me confused and insisted I have to believe in only one.
Now I'm at the point which really brings to the surface and highlights why I LOVE these discussions SO much! A thought just occurred to me. Regarding Romans 9:11, I really wish the two of you would've done a piece by piece breakdown exegesis of the verse! Why? Because I believe there is a powerful truth in that which just needs to be extracted and I think breaking that down into its part and looking at the various ways it could be interpreted and all the "what if's", using Scripture of course to interpret Scripture, I think a light bulb moment may have happened. One thing I'll mention is that when JD kept asking why this and why that, while highlighting portions of the verse, I kept thinking "Wait! God tells you why. It's right there! "In order (or "so") that God's purpose of election might continue". But what was/is "God's purpose of election"? That's when I had the thought I've never had before. Could it be that the "Israel" who is called the "Elect" would "continue" thru Jacob who becomes Israel in order to bring about the Elect One?
I asked this awhile back and no one answered but listening to this discussion again today I have to ask again. How can Leighton confirm the Perseverance of the saints or “eternal security” as he calls it but deny Unconditional Election? I can’t see how Uncoditional Election and Perseverance of the saints can be separated. if Ephesians 1:13-14 says that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance , and Matthew 13:18-23 says all people even those with “bad soil” can receive the Gospel with joy, but only those With “good soil” persevere. And If 1 John 2:19-20 says those who commit apostasy were not given the Holy Spirit, And Leighton Confirms those who are given the Holy spirt persevere, Then I can’t understand In his view what separates the future apostate In Matthew 13:20-21 , “the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises he falls away “, …. what separates that person from the Holy Spirit sealed believer in Matthew 13:23 is “the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”” If Leighton doesn’t believe the difference is works based and believes the difference is the Holy Spirit for one and not the other. How can he then deny unconditional Election through regeneration and perseverance?
Every Christian believes in preservance of the saints and election. They just mean different things to different Christians. Catholics believe that all people are elected and Jesus enabled all to believe but not all people will believe. If I am sealed by the Holy Spirit I am protected from Satan, demons. They won't be able to break the seal. But I am free to dishonour God and break the seal myself and walked out of Christ. Christ promised us protection if we stay and walk in Him. And if we don't we may not be protected. If there are riots and pastor say to you: stay to the church you are protected here. Do you conclude that you are protected when you disobey your pastor? As for Holy Spirit, do you understand you can grieve the Holy Spirit? Don't you know that Holy Spirit can departure from you and turn you over to Satan?
This entire argument comes down to ability. This question is answered by Jesus in John 3:17, Kosmos Sozo, all of humanity (Kosmos) has the ability, possibility and potentiality to believe and be saved (Sozo subjunctive mood). There is no such thing as total depravity/inability. Please also note the following definitions of Kosmos "All of creation, the physical planet earth, all of sinful humanity, the world system, and in one case refers to the Jews". Please note Kosmos never ever, ever never refers to a small select elect group.
John 3:17 [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. So who is the world? Every single person? John 3:18 [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. It looks like here it’s whoever believes in Him. If He dies for the entire world (every single person) then everyone would be saved. That is universalism. The truth is He died for those who have faith in Him. God bless, SM
@@ShepherdMinistry Yes, Kosmos is all of sinful humanity. Kosmos is never ever translated as a small elect group. Kosmos can mean all of creation, the physical planet earth, all of humanity, or the world system. God didn't come to save the universe, nor the planet, nor the world system, but, all of humanity. Same applies to Hebrews 2:9. Feel free to go look this up, in any lexicon and the definition of the subjunctive mood.
@@JStevensdk7 “World” in Greek is Kosmos (G2889). The Greek word kosmos, translated into the English word "world," essentially means an "orderly system." The basic idea of the Greek work kosmos is "order" or "arrangement"; so the word may mean "adornment", as in 1 Pet 3.3, "outward adorning" (RSV; GNB "make yourselves beautiful"). The word world, has at least five different meanings in the New Testament: Every Individual: Acts 17:31; Romans 3:6; 1 John 2:2; Limited Area: Luke 2:1; Acts 11:28; Romans 1:8; Colossians 1:6; All Nations: Matthew 26:13; John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Revelation 3:10; 16:14. Secular Realm: Matt. 5:14; 18:7; John 1:10; 15:18; Rom. 12:2; Gal. 6:14; 1 Tim. 1:15; James 1:27; 1 Pet. 1:9; 1 John 2:15; The Earth: Luke 12:30; John 1:10; Acts 17:24; Ephesians 1:11; 1 Timothy 1:15; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:6 As you can see the word “World” can vary. It does not just mean everyone.
@@JStevensdk7 Another thing to consider is how John uses the term “the world” in John 4:42. 39 Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.” John 4:39-42 In this passage, when the Samaritans say that Jesus is the “Savior of the world,” they are saying that Jesus is the savior of not only the Jews, but also the Gentiles. They are surprised that Jesus would reach out to a Samaritan woman, when Samaritans were looked down upon by the Jews. It simply makes far more sense to believe that the Samaritans are using the word “world” to refer to not only the Jewish group of people, but also people who were not Jews (for example, the Samaritans), than that they are referring to every individual person in the world.
@@JStevensdk7 Here’s one of my favorites. Notice how Paul states Christ gave Himself up for the Church and not every single person. Ephesians 5:25 [25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. As you can see the atonement was for those who believed. Yes, it’s an open offer to the world as there is a general call by Gods word for the world to repent. And yes the atonement can atone for more than the world. But it was only intended for those with faith. God bless, SM
Oh my gosh! What a missed opportunity you had JD. You framed your example and question here perfectly and Leighton knew it. I wish you would have held his feet to the fire and asked him to go ahead and give his answer again because it was a very different scenario you were asking him. (1:38:01) “Asked and answered, ha ha, you just rephrased the same question.” Boy, he’s good at diversion because that was not a rephrasing of the previous question. What a dodge!
Hi JD Martin...i made a comment in the live chat that Leighton flowers commented on and i think it's very important...i said or asked does Leighton believe he can come to God without God....the way he answers the question is very ambiguous in my opinion as he seems to side step the issue by making it seem as if the question is asking that can someone come to God for salvation without God providing the way in that Jesus went to the cross died and rose again paying the price for his sheep...the question is not that can man make his own way without the provided way of Jesus get to God and save himself...in my thinking which I'm trying to work on thinking these things thru i think if you are going to be consistent in saying that libertarian freewill apart from God having anything to do with influencing my opinions feelings or anything that would override or sway my freewill to come to salvation... Meaning that the father the son or the Holy spirit can't do anything to my freewill to get me to accept salvation ....in order for it to be a completely freewill choice on my end it would have to be me reasoning on my own to decide i will accept the offer of having belief in Jesus Christ as my savior....and that's what i was asking when i asked if Leighton flowers believe he can come to God without God.... Which i would say the bible doesn't teach anything remotely close to in that you have the father giving the son and the son telling the father he will not let any perish of the ones he has been given and the Holy spirit working in those believers and guiding them all the way... Seems to me that everywhere in the bible it says God is the one bringing us to him....as i think John says we love because God first loved us and that's why we love because he loved us first not that we first loved God and believe but that we love and believe because God loved us first..... I appreciate your videos I'm working on these things ...i come from being saved in a pentecostal church but find myself agreeing with reformed theology with a continuing work of the gifts of the Holy spirit...let me know what you think ... i would appreciate if you can reply if you agree or disagree with my thinking on freewill which i believe we have but is consistent with our fallen nature
I think arguments like this primarily are built after one has already built their theology from exegesis and then is comparing their system to the other one. Thus, it is a comparative argument. I think we should primarily focus on exegetical arguments where the system is derived in the first place. This gets to the heart of the issues of why we as Christians should believe certain things rather than others. I hope I am making sense.
@@carlosquinones6336 I've been a Christian for over 43 years Carlos. Are you a Christian? I wonder if you're a Christian or just a calvinist . A calvinist Christian on the other hand is just a confused Christian that should actually look at what the texts actually say without cramming a paradigm into them . Your question to Brother Leighton was very disrespectful Carlos. It just gets so old seeing arrogant comments and questions like this in these discussions . Your question would imply that Brother Leighton isn't even a child of GOD in your mind to ask him such a question now doesn't it . After all it seems that calvinist are usually the ones saying who will go up and who will go down though isn't it ?
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 I asked what I think is an important question...if it's so simple why not answer the question..I asked if you are a Christian because you always seem angry in the way you comment...asking an honest question isnt disrespectful as i stated above im trying to learn and think these things thru...i don't care about the name tag calvinism ...church im a member of is pentecostal...i care about what the bible teaches and that's what i seek to learn
At 5:50, I know that Leighton doesn't like the teaching that it is God who determines the will of man, but that is precisely what Scripture teaches... Observe Revelation 17:17 - "For God gave it in their hearts to do His purpose..." God's meticulous providence over human decisions and actions comes through His control over our affections (cf. Psalm 105:25, 106:46, Proverbs 21:1, Ezra 6:22, 7:27, Nehemiah 1:11, Acts 4:27-28, 7:10), by so doing, we are not robots responding moment by moment to individual commands and prompts in situations, but that He is in control of our decisions as we freely choose what we want. Leighton may not like it, so he redefines "free will" in ways that are foreign to Scripture in order to support his own views of morality, but no thanks, I'll just stick with Scripture.
@@lawrencestanley8989 You eisegete and contradict yourself when you say we “freely choose what we want “ yet say He is in control of our decisions ! Answer this question please: When you lust after women, is God determining that you do, or is it totally your decision.⚠️BLASPHEMY WARNING⚠️
@@johndisalvo6283 So God isn't in control over our affections even though I gave scriptures that demonstrate just that? I think you're letting your narrative take over your reading of scripture. As for your sin question, when we observe Genesis 50:20, we see one action ordained by God, but two intentions - God ordained the action intending it for His glory (Joseph going to Egypt), but Joseph's brothers performed the action with wicked intent, making it sinful. The same is true for all actions of men. Observe 2 Samuel 12:11-12 where God declared 3 times that He was raising up evil from David's own household. While the immediate fulfillment was adultery, there was quite a bit more, including murder. Given that you are assuming blasphemy in my response, I take it that you do not believe the Bible?
CALVINISM: "SINCE THOU WAS PRECIOUS IN MY SIGHT, THOU HAST BEEN HONOURABLE." (ISAIAH 43:4) CALVINISM: "WITHHOLD NOT THOU THY TENDER MERCIES FROM ME, O LORD: LET THY LOVINGKINDNESS AND THY TRUTH CONTINUALLY PRESERVE ME." (PSALM 40:11) CALVINISM: "THE LORD KILLETH, AND MAKETH ALIVE: HE BRINGETH DOWN TO THE GRAVE, AND BRINGETH UP. THE LORD MAKETH POOR, AND MAKETH RICH: HE BRINGETH LOW, AND LIFTETH UP." (1 SAMUEL 2:6-7) CALVINISM: "HE WILL KEEP THE FEET OF HIS SAINTS, AND THE WICKED SHALL BE SILENT IN DARKNESS: FOR BY STRENGTH SHALL NO MAN PREVAIL." (I SAMUEL 2:9) CALVINISM: THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT MADE ME, AND FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB, WHICH WILL HELP ME; FEAR NOT, MY SERVANT; AND THOU, FREELANCE PUBLIC FULLTIME GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. CALVINISM: "IT IS THE LORD: LET HIM DO WHAT SEEMETH HIM GOOD" (HOLY SCRIPTURE/KJV) CALVINISM: "BY WHOM [I] HAVE RECEIVED GRACE, FOR OBEDIENCE TO HIS FAITH FOR HIS NAME." ~ Romans 1:5 CALVINISM: "YOUR FATHER KNOWETH WHAT THINGS YE HAVE NEED OF, BEFORE YE ASK HIM." ~ Matthew 6:8 CALVINISM: "GOD IS JUDGE: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE, AND SETTETH UP ANOTHER." ~ Psalm 75:7 CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME." ~ Psalm 71:3 CALVINISM: "AND THE LORD DIRECTS YOUR HEARTS INTO THE LOVE OF GOD." (II Thessalonians 3:5) CALVINISM: "THIS IS MY REST FOREVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT" (Psalm 132:14) CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GRANTED ME LIFE AND FAVOUR, AND THY VISITATION HAS PRESERVED MY SPIRIT." - JOB 10:12 CALVINISM: "FOR WHOSO FINDETH ME FINDETH LIFE, AND SHALL OBTAIN FAVOUR OF THE LORD." - PROVERBS 8:35 CALVINISM: "BE THOU MY STRONG HABITATION, WHEREUNTO I MAY CONTINUALLY RESORT: THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME; FOR THOU ART MY ROCK AND MY FORTRESS." - PSALM 71:3 CALVINISM: "BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND [JOHN STEWART] HAS CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM [HIM]." (LUKE 10:42 [MODIFIED]) CALVINISM: BUT HE IS IN ONE MIND. AND WHO CAN TURN HIM? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH." (JOB 23:13) CALVINISM: "BUT HE KNOWETH THE WAY THAT I TAKE: WHEN HE HAS TRIED ME, I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD." (JOB 23:12) CALVINISM: "...BUT THAT JESUS ALSO SHOULD GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD." (JOHN 11:52) CALVINISM: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants." (Luke 12:36-38) CALVINISM: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." (Isaiah 25:9) CALVINISM: "I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live." (Psalm 116:1-2) CALVINISM: "HAVING LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, HE LOVED THEM UNTO THE END." (JOHN 13:1) CALVINISM: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48) CALVINISM: "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (PROVERBS 24:12) CALVINISM: "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." (Job 42:2) CALVINISM: "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it." (Ezekiel 17:24) CALVINISM: "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;" (Ezekiel 20:25) CALVINISM: "GOD QUICKENETH THE DEAD, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." (Romans 4:20) CALVINISM: "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me." (Jeremiah 27:5) CALVINISM: "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever." (Psalm 41:12) CALVINISM: "THE LORD GOD HAS OPENED MINE EAR,..." (Isaiah 50:5a) CALVINISM: "I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." (Isaiah 46:11) CALVINISM: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Genesis 18:19) CALVINISM: "Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:" (Psalm 10:17) CALVINISM: "We do not present our supplications before you for our righteousness, but for your great mercies." (Daniel 9:18.) CALVINISM: "IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WILL WITH MINE OWN? IS THINE EYE EVIL, BECAUSE I AM GOOD? (MATTHEW 20:15) CALVINISM: "HE SEALETH UP THE HAND OF EVERY MAN; THAT ALL MEN MAY KNOW HIS WORK." (JOB 37:7) CALVINISM: "GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH." (ROMANS 12:3) CALVINISM: "WHEN THOU SAIDST, SEEK YE MY FACE; MY HEART SAID UNTO THEE, THY FACE, LORD, WILL I SEEK." (PSALM 27:8) CALVINISM: "LET THY HAND BE UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, UPON THE SON OF MAN WHOM THOU MADEST STRONG FOR THYSELF." (PSALM 80:17) CALVINISM: "GOD IS FAITHFUL, BY WHOM YE WERE CALLED UNTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." (1 CORINTHIANS 1:9) CALVINISM: "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING, BRETHREN, HOW THAT NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, ARE CALLED:" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:26) CALVINISM: "I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, IT: AND IT SHALL BE NO MORE, UNTIL HE COME WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; AND I WILL GIVE IT HIM." (EZEKIEL 21:27) GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART HBH AT EMAIL DOT COM _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
At 23:49, you assert that "there are some that are so extreme that they will literally say that if you do not believe in Calvinism then you are not saved." OK, will you also denounce those in the "free will" camp who assert that Calvinists are heretics? I know that Leighton will not denounce them, rather, he has them on his show (Beyond the Fundamentals). If Leighton denounces Calvinists that believe that non-Calvinists are not saved, then he must also denounce those who believe that Calvinists are heretics or else he is a hypocrite.
@@Mark-oo3om Sir, there is no such thing as a "potential propitiation." Jesus did not die to make a “potential atonement,” rather, He died to make an actual atonement. Matthew 1:21 reads: “She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” The passage does not say that Jesus “might” save people from their sins, but that He WILL save HIS PEOPLE from their sins; Jesus made an actual atonement for a very specific group of people who are His, not a potential atonement for everyone in general. Jesus died to save HIS PEOPLE… He didn’t die merely to make salvation possible for just anyone. Observe Hebrews 9:11-14, Christ, through His own blood, obtained eternal redemption for all of those for whom He died, so that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance (verse 15, cf. Hebrews 3:1, Romans 8:28-39). There is no such thing as a “potential redemption.” Note again 1 John 2:2, he does not say "and He Himself COULD BE the propitiation for our sins..." but that He IS the propitiation for our sins. (here the word "world" means "all categories of people, both Jew and Gentile," see Revelation 5:9). The word “propitiation” means: 1) “The turning away of anger by the giving of a gift” (Elwell, Walter A., and Barry J. Beitze. Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1988) 2) “The removal of wrath by the giving of a gift” (Bromiley, Geoffrey W., ed. The International standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979-1988). Note that the wrath of God is not POTENTIALLY removed, it is ACTUALLY removed; that the certificate of debt has ACTUALLY been cancelled (Colossians 2:14). Remember in John 19:30 when Jesus declared “it is finished.” Either Christ actually accomplished redemption on the cross and secured it for all of those for whom He died, or if He simply made it available to anyone, then that requires us to add something to what Christ did on the cross for salvation to be effective. So the question for the Provisionist is, did Jesus ACTUALLY remove the wrath of God from absolutely everyone without exception? If so, and if God is just, then that means that NO ONE goes to hell... Of course this is not so, because we know that there are many people who DO receive the wrath of God, therefore the propitiation that Jesus made HAD to be limited in its extent. We see this in John 3:16 as well where the atonement is limited to all of the believing ones. Provisionism denies the scriptures.
Again, I disagree with Joel Suraj. Prior to Paul people had to believe (have faith) in the promises of God. And when they sinned they had to offer a sacrifice. Jesus is the fulfillment of the sacrificial system. It's the same thing. The faith in Jesus is the faith in the promise that He is the Lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the World and sacrifices are no longer needed nor is any other sacrifice sufficient.
Layton Flowers had a difficult time understanding the question by J.D. Martin that: Since God chose Jacob over Esau, or Isaac over Ishmael, before they were born, before doing anything good or bad, to fulfill His promise of the Messiah, how is it then that Jacob and Isaac both happen to be men of faith by which God carried out His covenants with them? Was it coincidence? Could God have just as well carried out His covenants with Esau and Jacob if they had been God haters? Or did God irresistibly give each of them faith by regeneration? I would answer this question in the following way: God chose to carry out His covenant through Isaac and Jacob, before they did anything good or bad, because God, in His foreknowledge, already knew that Isaac and Jacob would be faithful - their works of obedience to God being the fruit or evidence of their faith - before they were ever born. Jeremiah 1:5-6 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew (Hebrew: yada, to know) you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." God made his covenant with Abraham because of his faithfulness to God, even willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac. God renewed the covenant with Isaac because Isaac was faithful. God renewed the covenant with Jacob because Jacob was faithful. Faith was a key factor in God continuing His covenant through whom the Messiah would come. But God did not regenerate them so they could irresistibly believe; rather, God knew them before they were born, that they would be the persons of faith by which God would carry out His promise(s). That does not mean Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or any of the Patriarchs were perfectly faithful and holy, but that God worked His covenant through these persons within the seed of Abraham because God foresaw their faith, that they would remain in Him by faith.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 I would love to converse with you as well. My schedule is erratic though, and I am mostly up at night. As I write this, I am way past by bedtime, but I got caught up in viewing all the recent videos on the war in Ukraine. I was disappointed earlier last night when I learned of the advances the Russian Army made recently. Could we begin communicating by email? That way, I could respond to you as I have time, and you could do likewise. I would likely respond back to you in any conversation within 12 hours, and likely far sooner in many cases. If things should progress in the future, then we could always adapt from there. My email is: fute72003@yahoo.com. Blessings to you Pastor J.D. Martin. I look forward to any discussions with you. Sincerely, Steven
Moses was also chosen by God, and still didn't God tried to kill him and if it wasn't for his wife he would die? Don't you think God could kill Moses, Jacob, And still raise another prophet to carry his lineage? Why do you think God wanted to kill all the Jews? He still would accomplish his mission which was to make Jesus out of seed of Abraham. After all Jethro, father a law of Moses was also son of Abraham, God could absolutely lead linage to Christ through him. So If God killed all the Jews with Moses he would still not fail. Failing is one of the things cannot do.
Mark 3:13 Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. Question To a Calvinist is Mark 3:13 referring to the Apostles? If so could John 3:37 also be referring to the Apostles?
I really don't get why Leighton had such a hard time understanding that in Amyraldianism people can come to, or respond positively to the Gospel but they choose not to. It's the exact same position that us non-Calvinists hold to when explaining why the majority of people reject the Gospel. They _can_ receive it, but they choose not to. The only difference is that on Amyraldianism, _everyone_ chooses not to. Whereas on Provisionism, or Arminianism, the _majority_ of people choose not to, but some do.
Because the fundamental belief of determinism does not allow it. It is contradictory. The Calvinist is blind to the contradictions his system ultimately implies.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 I don't think Molinism is necessary but as L.F. was saying when "Mere" Molinism is explained sure most would say yes of course God has middle knowledge. Well why not just accept that God has all knowledge? Where I get messed up is when Molinist start talking about possible worlds and things like that. Lastly I think ultimately when pushed Molinism collapses into Determinism. They will argue otherwise but ultimately God actualized this world ! 😉
GOD chose Jacob because of foreknowledge don't you think ? HE knew what Jacob and essau would do , therefore choosing the one that would be a man of faith ?
@@carlosquinones6336 your question had nothing to do with my comment Carlos. I asked if maybe GOD might have chosen Jacob over essau because of HIS foreknowledge of the fact Jacob was going to be a man of faith . You asked me " so you think GOD chose you because HE saw how good you would be ? " My comment said nothing about Jacob being good now did it ?. My comment had nothing to do with my salvation or being good now did it ? My comment had nothing to do with anyone's salvation because this verse in Romans 9 has nothing to do with salvation . It has to do with election not justification Carlos. To answer your question about salvation , GOD sent HIS PRECIOUS SON JESUS to die for the sins of the world and to purchase the world and everything in it . CHRIST has offered me a free gift of love and eternal life with HIM reigning and ruling on top of that . I chose to accept that gift of love that CHRIST offered me and called on HIS NAME in humility and repentance and HE saved me . I used the faith that HE gave me and all men and put it in HIM therefore HE blessed that faith and it grows and grows and grows . When one believes it places them in HIM and HE has chosen those in HIM to be predestined to the adoption , to wit , the redemption of the body . No one can be in HIM until they believe , no one is elect until they believe except for a few special exceptions such as Elijah, John the Baptist etc... Paul wasn't even in HIM until he believed . Once one is redeemed , they are adopted , glorified to be like CHRIST for we will see HIM as HE is . This is biblical salvation Carlos , Straight out scripture , reality and experience proves it to be true . I've seen so many calvinist try to explain away why they weren't saved the first several times that they heard the gospel . I mean why even push the calvinist doctrine of election because it doesn't have anything to do with the gospel and evangelism . CHRIST said go into all the world preaching the gospel to every creature . CHRIST did not say go preach to every creature that some are predestined to hell .
I don't mean to offend, but this seems to me to be a very low view of God. God gave us means to be saved that he knew would fail everyone? Why even send the means then? Just elect and wait, or better yet skip all this suffering and just place the elect in heaven?
> Why even send the means then? You're assuming that if God doesn't reason like you do, then He wouldn't behave as you do. Probably not a wise position to hold, since His ways and thoughts are above yours. Basically, any time a person says "well, xyz can't be true because it doesn't make sense", they're using human sensibilities to judge God's actions. It's far better to say "xyz verse says God does this" or "xyz verse says God does not do this", and not use the limitations of your ability to reason to conclude whether or not God did xyz. God can and will have compelling reasons to do a thing that escapes your ability to detect, let alone rationalize.
@@timffoster no he's saying that the way calvinist represent GOD is disgusting and unbiblical . That for that reason calvinist seem to have a low view of GOD and agree and so do most Christian scholars with a high view of scripture . Calvinism being one of the most minority views in Christianity , especially among scholars with a high view of scripture you know . You know that's what he meant didn't you but you was gonna go on through the script with him I see .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Bravo good man. God is really smart and did not hide the truth on the basics from us. 😚🤏 Even Job knew what was needed for salvation. Naaman the leper went home with a dirt bible, and I look forward to seeing him in heaven. Salvation is super easy, anyone CAN do it. Whether they want to do it or not, is the tough pill. The only thing that makes sense of the text of scripture is real Choice. The bible keeps entreating Humanity to choose God. Only Calvinism says that God made us unable to make that choice all the while telling us to do what only he can do. ?🤔? God did not need to wait for Gnostic Manicheans to reveal what the bible really meant. By Gnostics I mean Calvinism's Interpretation of scripture which comes right out of Manichean Gnosticism. Read "the foundation of augustinian-calvinism" by Dr. Ken Wilson if you want to know more.
At 9:47, I can only speak for myself here, but when I use the word "permission," it is with the idea that evil does not come about by God's positive agency, but rather, God ordains the actions of men for His glory, but men perform the action according to their own wicked intentions, making the act sinful, even though it was ordained by God for His glory (that is, one action; two intentions). It is in this sense that God "permits" men to act wickedly.
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 No, actually, it isn't. It is precisely what we see in scripture; that God permits men to carry out His ordination according to their own wicked intentions. See Genesis 50:20.
@@lawrencestanley8989 why are you and your calvie buddies always trying to make GOD the author of sin ? The while time calling yourselves Christians, it disgusting . We will all stand before GOD one day and your testimony will be " GOD I tried to convince everyone that YOU are evil and your creation man is a terrible creation " .You better wake up and stop this crap of twisting and dancing around verses in scripture trying to make your twisted calvinist paradigm work before its to late Lawrence. Stop and look at what you're actually saying here .You're saying GOD makes someone sin and then punishes them for it . That is so very much not scriptural Lawrence. Stop
What is free will? Man has the ability and responsibility to choose what is right. And God has determined all things that will happen. That is reformed teaching.
Of course God have man a real free will. But the fall put man into bondage to the sin he chose to serve that day and as a result all that are born are under that bondage.
I understand that all are born in sin as a result of the fall but that doesn't mean that everyone lost the ability to choose. If that were true then there would be no reason to believe in God because everything is predetermined. @@seansimpson1133
At 14:45, Leighton asserts (in response to Alcorn) that if there ever is an example where God overrides the choices of man, that does not disprove libertarianism. This is simply not true. Where we find instances where God overrides the choices of man (and there are legion), in each case, we see that God reserves the right and has the power to alter the will of man at any time for His purposes - that means that at best, man's will is conditionally free, and if a will is conditionally free, then that will is not free at all, but rather, it is a slave to the one who places conditions upon it.
So, you don’t have free will in any earthly sense either then, because any one can override your choices at times, e.g., a thief stealing your car this morning to prevent you from your choice of driving your car to work. Or the government closing your gym during the lockdown. Or your kid eating the last slice of pie you left in the fridge and were planning on eating this morning. So, according to your argument, there isn’t such a thing as free will.
@@joevasanu7459 Precisely! After all, where do you think all of those instances come from? In Ephesians 1:11, Paul declares that God effects "all things" after the counsel of His will; this working declares God to be the ultimate cause of all things, excepting nothing. In Proverbs 20:24 we read that "man's steps are ordained by Yahweh." The word translated here as “ordained,” in the Septuagint is the word ευθυνω, which speaks of how the helmsman of a ship guides and directs the ship in the direction he wants it to go. But it is actually much simpler than that. We are “free” to do what we want to do (that is, no man is coerced), but what is it that determines our "wants?" Indeed, we are bound in what we want to do by our moral condition and its desires (Romans 8:7). We may do as we please, but we cannot please as we please. Man acts according to his strongest desires, and yet man does not determine his desires. We cannot use our will to shape our moral condition, but rather, it is our moral condition that determines how we will use our wills, and every man born of natural generation from Adam is born into an imputed, Adamic, sinful condition that determines his morality (Romans 5:12ff). The will of man can desire only what his moral condition permits him to desire, therefore his will is by no means free, but rather it is a slave to his moral condition, and his moral condition is a slave to the will of God who ordains whatsoever comes to pass (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36), and this includes the fall which enslaved all of Adam’s descendants to a corrupt moral condition. What we see in scripture is that man wills willfully what God wills him to will.
"if a will is conditionally free, then that will is not free at all" This is not true at all. Free will has never meant unlimited freedom, it´s always seen as limited by the parameters of the God that gave us freedom. Free will is commonly defined as two things; first that you are ultimate cause of your choice not other influences, and second that you could have chosen otherwise. None of those are challenged by the idea that God could sometimes limit our will. That you are not always free does not mean you are never free or even generally free.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 You said: *"you are ultimate cause of your choice not other influences, and second that you could have chosen otherwise."* Right, and this is precisely where Provisionists and the like either neglect the scriptures, or reinterpret them according to their narrative because they will not have God to rule over them. I could list a TREMENDOUS number of scriptures that demonstrate God's meticulous providence, but two always stand out on this topic: 1) Romans 11:36 - For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (see also 1 Chronicles 29:11-14, Daniel 2:20-23, Acts 17:25-26, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 15:28, Ephesians 1:23, 4:6-8, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 2:10) 2) Ephesians 1:10-12 - …the summing up of all things in Christ… according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (cf. Isaiah 46:10-11) In Ephesians 1:11, the text says that God “works,” using a present active participle of the verb meaning “to work” or “to expend effort,” "to effect." The Lord actively exercises His reign, effecting “all things” according to His will. In using that terminology, Paul leaves nothing outside of the purview of God’s active control. God is the ultimate cause of “all things," even sin and evil (cf. 2 Samuel 12:11-12), who upholds and governs all events, people and the choices they make, nations, rulers, and even the created world itself in His meticulous providence (Psalm 22:28, 47:8, 135:6-7, 147:15-18, Proverbs 16:33, 21:1, Isaiah 41:4, Daniel 4:35, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3). Jesus emphasizes that this divine control extends to the smallest details. He teaches us that our heavenly Father not only makes the sun rise and sends rain (Matthew 5:45), but also feeds the birds (Matthew 6:26), clothes the lilies (Matthew 6:28-30), accounts for the falling of sparrows, and numbers the hairs on our head (Matthew 10:29-30; Luke 12:4-7). And he demonstrates his unity with the Father by calming the sea at his own command (Matthew 8:23-27; Mark 4:35-39; Luke 8:22-25). Freedom in the Biblical sense is most assuredly NOT that you are the ultimate cause of your choices, and that you could have done otherwise, for this is antagonistic to scripture and reason, but rather, freedom is simply that no one is coerced by God to do something against their will.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Hello again Lawrence! I appreciate that you bring the issue back to Scripture, the highest authority on any matter. But I will not accept that we "neglect the Scriptures" beacuse we understand the texts differently than you do. For example; let´s use the Rom 11:36 passage you quoted: "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." Does this text even hint that we don´t have free will? No. Not a word about it is said. All things came through Him - creation, we believe that. All things came through Him - All things were made through the Son, the Word, we believe that. To Him are all things - The ultimate purpose of all creation is for the glory of God. God is glorified in the beauty of what He has made, He is glorified in the grace He shows to all people, and He is glorified in the judgement of all those who by their own choice rebels against Him. We believe all that. The question here is not why we "reject Scripture" - we don´t - the question is why you think the text says something it does not? (yes, I looked at the text in your list. They don´t claim we have no free will, none of them do.) Eph 1:11 If you look at the context He is talking about all the things God has done to save us; He chose us in Jesus (ie He chose believers), He predestined us for adoption, He favored and redeemed believers, He revealed His glory to us and gave us an inheritance. All of these things He works according to the counsel of His will if you stick to the context. Is there anything in the text itself that implies this includes sins or evil? No, of course not. You have to import that idea. The text is not talking about everything that happens, but everything that God does for His children. Only if you rip this text out of context can you make it say what you want. In 1 Cor 10:13 it says: "No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." So every time a christian sins, it is proof that we have free will. Why? - God says in His Word He will not tempt us beyond what we are able to endure, and God does not lie. So we could have endured in the temptation - But we don´t always endure, sometimes we give in and do sin, showing that we chose one thing when we could have chosen another. So free will is biblical. Clearly. And if you do not believe this, you end up, as you do, giving God the "credit" for all sin and evil in the world. How is it not blasphemy against God to say this? To say God causes all sin? The Bible does not do this. The Bible says God can do whatever He pleases in Heaven and Earth, that does not mean He has chosen to control everything. One is about what God can do, the other about what He actually does. When we pray "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" it is precisely because His will is not always done on earth. Because God has given us freedom. The Bible says God can stop anything evil from happening, so in a sense He has to permit anything that happens. But permitting and commiting are different. And if there was no free will, He would only permit what He Himself has made people and angels want to do. A great struggle that God is having with Himself in the end. When God condemns evil then according to your system He condemns what He Himself has planned, decreed and brought to pass. This is not glorifying God. One final point; notice what the texts actually say and what you think it means: God numbers the hairs on our heads - you conclude this means we have no free will. God clothes the lillies - So then we definitely have no free will... God accounts for the falling of a sparrow - So how can we have free will? Why are you giving me a host of texts saying that God is completely aware of all things and in control? I have never questioned that. Why don´t you instead give me texts that actually say what you claim, that we have no free will?
Great discussion, jd u are very humble. I like that u said we prob both have it wrong. Why do we think we know each and every way how things work, we don't.
@@b4ucmego Romans 8:29-33 [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. [31] What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? [32] He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? [33] Who shall bring any charge against God’s 👉elect?👈 It is God who justifies. Ephesians 1:4 “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” Mark 13:20 (ESV) 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. Election is speaking of salvation. Matthew 24:31 [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his 👉elect👈 from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. God bless, SM
@@ShepherdMinistry I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? Romans 11:1-2
A Bible Believer believes in eternal security because the Bible teaches it. A Calvinist believes in OSAS because their systematic (TULIP) implicates it. Two very different believes based on two different foundations.
@@eiontactics9056 Eternal Security is the Calvinist view, OSAS is just a derogatory term that Catholics and other haters of eternal security or more properly the doctrine of assurance use.
@@eiontactics9056 what did Paul teach I Romans 1-5 that caused him to anticipate the objection OSAS misrepresentation 6:1 What then shall we say shall we continue to sin that grace may abound, certainly not...
@@eiontactics9056 Reformed people don't teach that you can do whatever you want and be a Christian with security...rather those that have been born again will produce fruit and God will finish what He starts in them.
Libertarian free will is unbiblical and logically impossible. Apart from God we can do nothing including exist. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:16-17 | ESV
JD - I love how you interact with those you disagree with. You are a good Christian example in this. Thanks!
I love having these dialogues. My main goal is to show how. Christians can interact in love even when we disagree.
Amen. If we can have polite disagreements then we can grow in our understanding as a body.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 should the "main" goal be to find Truth? Then a secondary goal of modeling how to converse while we disagree as Christians? Should the guest and yourself be pointed towards the logos, and attempting to learn from each other? I have an idea about these concepts obviously, but genuinely curious to know how you will respond to these questions. For everyone reading, I am not a provisionist, nor a calvinist (or reformed in any way), nor a Baptist or etc. Do not claim a label other than a follower of "The Way" (I know it sounds holier than thou, just added for clarity of the question). Love ya man, thanks for always being amicable!
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 How can Leighton confirm the Perseverance of the saints or “eternal security” as he calls it? How can Saving Faith that perseveres not be a miraculous gift , given to the Elect? I wouldn’t think that Election and Perseverance of the saints can be separated.
if Ephesians 1:13-14 says that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance , and Matthew 13:18-23 says all people even those with “bad soil” can receive the Gospel with joy, but only those With “good soil” persevere.
if 1 John 2:19-20 says those who commit apostasy were not given the Holy Spirit, And Leighton Confirms those who are given the Holy spirt persevere, Then I can’t understand In his view what separates the future apostate In Matthew 13:20-21 , “the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises he falls away “, ….
what separates that person from the Holy Spirit sealed believer in Matthew 13:23 is “the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.””
If Leighton doesn’t believe the difference is works based and believes the difference is the Holy Spirit for one and not the other. How can he then deny God’s Election through regeneration and perseverance? Am I off base here?
I’m not a Calvinist but J.D. definitely has a good grasp of the multiple views!
Very kind of you to say.
All these little Calvinism off shoots are just progressive reactions to to contradictions within there own systems , in other words excuses rather than admitting it's not a sound system
You are correct my friend . It's so plain to see . Makes em feel smart for some reason I guess .
There are various offshoots to every system. Just ask the people who claim them and what their beliefs are.
CALVINISM: "SINCE THOU WAS PRECIOUS IN MY SIGHT, THOU HAST BEEN HONOURABLE." (ISAIAH 43:4)
CALVINISM: "WITHHOLD NOT THOU THY TENDER MERCIES FROM ME, O LORD: LET THY LOVINGKINDNESS AND THY TRUTH CONTINUALLY PRESERVE ME." (PSALM 40:11)
CALVINISM: "THE LORD KILLETH, AND MAKETH ALIVE: HE BRINGETH DOWN TO THE GRAVE, AND BRINGETH UP. THE LORD MAKETH POOR, AND MAKETH RICH: HE BRINGETH LOW, AND LIFTETH UP." (1 SAMUEL 2:6-7)
CALVINISM: "HE WILL KEEP THE FEET OF HIS SAINTS, AND THE WICKED SHALL BE SILENT IN DARKNESS: FOR BY STRENGTH SHALL NO MAN PREVAIL." (I SAMUEL 2:9)
CALVINISM: THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT MADE ME, AND FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB, WHICH WILL HELP ME; FEAR NOT, MY SERVANT; AND THOU, FREELANCE PUBLIC FULLTIME GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN.
CALVINISM: "IT IS THE LORD: LET HIM DO WHAT SEEMETH HIM GOOD" (HOLY SCRIPTURE/KJV)
CALVINISM: "BY WHOM [I] HAVE RECEIVED GRACE, FOR OBEDIENCE TO HIS FAITH FOR HIS NAME." ~ Romans 1:5
CALVINISM: "YOUR FATHER KNOWETH WHAT THINGS YE HAVE NEED OF, BEFORE YE ASK HIM." ~ Matthew 6:8
CALVINISM: "GOD IS JUDGE: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE, AND SETTETH UP ANOTHER." ~ Psalm 75:7
CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME." ~ Psalm 71:3
CALVINISM: "AND THE LORD DIRECTS YOUR HEARTS INTO THE LOVE OF GOD." (II Thessalonians 3:5)
CALVINISM: "THIS IS MY REST FOREVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT" (Psalm 132:14)
CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GRANTED ME LIFE AND FAVOUR, AND THY VISITATION HAS PRESERVED MY SPIRIT." - JOB 10:12
CALVINISM: "FOR WHOSO FINDETH ME FINDETH LIFE, AND SHALL OBTAIN FAVOUR OF THE LORD." - PROVERBS 8:35
CALVINISM: "BE THOU MY STRONG HABITATION, WHEREUNTO I MAY CONTINUALLY RESORT: THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME; FOR THOU ART MY ROCK AND MY FORTRESS." - PSALM 71:3
CALVINISM: "BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND [JOHN STEWART] HAS CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM [HIM]." (LUKE 10:42 [MODIFIED])
CALVINISM: BUT HE IS IN ONE MIND. AND WHO CAN TURN HIM? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH." (JOB 23:13)
CALVINISM: "BUT HE KNOWETH THE WAY THAT I TAKE: WHEN HE HAS TRIED ME, I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD." (JOB 23:12)
CALVINISM: "...BUT THAT JESUS ALSO SHOULD GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD." (JOHN 11:52)
CALVINISM: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants." (Luke 12:36-38)
CALVINISM: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." (Isaiah 25:9)
CALVINISM: "I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live." (Psalm 116:1-2)
CALVINISM: "HAVING LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, HE LOVED THEM UNTO THE END." (JOHN 13:1)
CALVINISM: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
CALVINISM: "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (PROVERBS 24:12)
CALVINISM: "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." (Job 42:2)
CALVINISM: "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it." (Ezekiel 17:24)
CALVINISM: "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;" (Ezekiel 20:25)
CALVINISM: "GOD QUICKENETH THE DEAD, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." (Romans 4:20)
CALVINISM: "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me." (Jeremiah 27:5)
CALVINISM: "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever." (Psalm 41:12)
CALVINISM: "THE LORD GOD HAS OPENED MINE EAR,..." (Isaiah 50:5a)
CALVINISM: "I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." (Isaiah 46:11)
CALVINISM: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Genesis 18:19)
CALVINISM: "Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:" (Psalm 10:17)
CALVINISM: "We do not present our supplications before you for our righteousness, but for your great mercies." (Daniel 9:18.)
CALVINISM: "IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WILL WITH MINE OWN? IS THINE EYE EVIL, BECAUSE I AM GOOD? (MATTHEW 20:15)
CALVINISM: "HE SEALETH UP THE HAND OF EVERY MAN; THAT ALL MEN MAY KNOW HIS WORK." (JOB 37:7)
CALVINISM: "GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH." (ROMANS 12:3)
CALVINISM: "WHEN THOU SAIDST, SEEK YE MY FACE; MY HEART SAID UNTO THEE, THY FACE, LORD, WILL I SEEK." (PSALM 27:8)
CALVINISM: "LET THY HAND BE UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, UPON THE SON OF MAN WHOM THOU MADEST STRONG FOR THYSELF." (PSALM 80:17)
CALVINISM: "GOD IS FAITHFUL, BY WHOM YE WERE CALLED UNTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." (1 CORINTHIANS 1:9)
CALVINISM: "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING, BRETHREN, HOW THAT NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, ARE CALLED:" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:26)
CALVINISM: "I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, IT: AND IT SHALL BE NO MORE, UNTIL HE COME WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; AND I WILL GIVE IT HIM." (EZEKIEL 21:27)
GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART
HBH AT EMAIL DOT COM
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The calvinist answer everytime . " but the word could mean "
Tyre and Sidon are largely converted later in the book of Acts.
How does this shape your understanding of the passage?
I love your work, Kevin! Keep it up, brother! 🙏 ❤️
@@eiontactics9056 thanks!
Read the recent book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" by Ken Wilson, if you want to understand the origin of the doctrine. Augustine was attempting to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it could have nothing to do with the will of the child. It must be based on the will of another.
The problem with Wilson's book is that it is VERY biased, and as a result it is not well researched; it is an example of what happens to scholarship whenever someone has an axe to grind.
As Raymond A. Blacketer has once rightly commented, “There is a trajectory of thought in the Christian tradition running from the Patristic era through the Middle Ages that stresses a specific, particular and defined purpose of God in salvation; but it is a minority position and is frequently ambiguous” (“Definite Atonement in Historical Perspective,” pg 313).
In fact, John Gill was convinced that there were significant traces of the doctrines of grace detectable in the Patristic authors, therefore, in his work, “The Cause of God and Truth,” he lists 33 Patristic authorities where the doctrines of grace may be found (mostly in defense of definite atonement).
The issues surrounding what we now call "Calvinism" MASSIVELY predate the life and thought of John Calvin, so for someone to call it a "Calvinist" doctrine (when his own relationship to the doctrine of definite atonement is a matter of debate) is historically misleading.
So why in the early church was the discussion of the doctrines of grace, specifically definite atonement a “minority position and is frequently ambiguous?” From the beginning of the Patristic era, the fathers had to deal with the elitism and exclusivism of various Gnostic groups, which led them to stress the universalism of the Christian gospel and, understandably, to downplay the particularity of the cross-work of Christ. Also, the need to avoid Greco-Roman fatalism, much of it the result of popular Stoicism, issued in a concern to stress the freedom of the human will, and this, in turn, served to diminish any desire to discuss the extent of the atonement.
Because of that, people like Wilson and Flowers treat the doctrines of grace as if they are something new that was dreamed up out of Gnosticism; the truth is actually quite the opposite.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Have you read the book?
@@SpotterVideo
I tried to get through it, but it just wasn't honest scholarship, so I set it aside. He expects his audience to have never read the patriarchs for themselves; I have, so I cannot possibly buy his premise. Have you read the patriarchs and Wilson's book?
@@lawrencestanley8989 I read the original long version of Dr. Wilson's project, and this shorter version of Wilson's reading of all of Augustine's writings in the original languages. If you have not read either of Wilson's books on the matter, it is going to be hard for others to take your assessment seriously.
@@SpotterVideo
I've read the patriarchs, therefore I can't take Wilson seriously. Have you read the patriarchs? If not, then no one should take you seriously.
Regarding God's knowledge, foreknowledge, can He learn, etc. I'll just throw this out there because it's what I hold to:
"One cannot profitably discuss God's foreknowledge, because it is clearly a part of God's thoughts that are higher than man's (Is. 55:9)." ~ Spiros Zodhiates (excerpted from commentary on Gen. 22:12) I submit that where God has chosen to remain silent so then should His children.
That said, I will also say that I have a real problem when folks try to twist and turn Scripture into something other than the plain reading of the text when there's no indication that it doesn't say just what it says. Like "For now I know" in the above Scripture or the times in Jeremiah when God specifically says he did not decree something nor did it even enter His mind. I see no reason to take it for anything other than it says and I would submit that a quickness to do so is a severe lack of fear of the Lord.
So I agree with what both Leighton and JD said.
Interesting. The Calvinists I've come across claim that even if the devil hadn't deceived Adam, he still would've sinned. A danger of Christianity is falling trusting wholly in "human-inspired" doctrines. There's nothing wrong with holding a view, but there's everything wrong when you neglect Scriptural verses and twist them to suit your doctrine.
CALVINISM: "WITHHOLD NOT THOU THY TENDER MERCIES FROM ME, O LORD: LET THY LOVINGKINDNESS AND THY TRUTH CONTINUALLY PRESERVE ME." (PSALM 40:11)
CALVINISM: "THE LORD KILLETH, AND MAKETH ALIVE: HE BRINGETH DOWN TO THE GRAVE, AND BRINGETH UP. THE LORD MAKETH POOR, AND MAKETH RICH: HE BRINGETH LOW, AND LIFTETH UP." (1 SAMUEL 2:6-7)
CALVINISM: "HE WILL KEEP THE FEET OF HIS SAINTS, AND THE WICKED SHALL BE SILENT IN DARKNESS: FOR BY STRENGTH SHALL NO MAN PREVAIL." (I SAMUEL 2:9)
CALVINISM: THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT MADE ME, AND FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB, WHICH WILL HELP ME; FEAR NOT, MY SERVANT; AND THOU, FREELANCE PUBLIC FULLTIME GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN.
CALVINISM: "IT IS THE LORD: LET HIM DO WHAT SEEMETH HIM GOOD" (HOLY SCRIPTURE/KJV)
CALVINISM: "BY WHOM [I] HAVE RECEIVED GRACE, FOR OBEDIENCE TO HIS FAITH FOR HIS NAME." ~ Romans 1:5
CALVINISM: "YOUR FATHER KNOWETH WHAT THINGS YE HAVE NEED OF, BEFORE YE ASK HIM." ~ Matthew 6:8
CALVINISM: "GOD IS JUDGE: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE, AND SETTETH UP ANOTHER." ~ Psalm 75:7
CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME." ~ Psalm 71:3
CALVINISM: "AND THE LORD DIRECTS YOUR HEARTS INTO THE LOVE OF GOD." (II Thessalonians 3:5)
CALVINISM: "THIS IS MY REST FOREVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT" (Psalm 132:14)
CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GRANTED ME LIFE AND FAVOUR, AND THY VISITATION HAS PRESERVED MY SPIRIT." - JOB 10:12
CALVINISM: "FOR WHOSO FINDETH ME FINDETH LIFE, AND SHALL OBTAIN FAVOUR OF THE LORD." - PROVERBS 8:35
CALVINISM: "BE THOU MY STRONG HABITATION, WHEREUNTO I MAY CONTINUALLY RESORT: THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME; FOR THOU ART MY ROCK AND MY FORTRESS." - PSALM 71:3
CALVINISM: "BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND [JOHN STEWART] HAS CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM [HIM]." (LUKE 10:42 [MODIFIED])
CALVINISM: BUT HE IS IN ONE MIND. AND WHO CAN TURN HIM? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH." (JOB 23:13)
CALVINISM: "BUT HE KNOWETH THE WAY THAT I TAKE: WHEN HE HAS TRIED ME, I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD." (JOB 23:12)
CALVINISM: "...BUT THAT JESUS ALSO SHOULD GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD." (JOHN 11:52)
CALVINISM: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants." (Luke 12:36-38)
CALVINISM: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." (Isaiah 25:9)
CALVINISM: "I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live." (Psalm 116:1-2)
CALVINISM: "HAVING LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, HE LOVED THEM UNTO THE END." (JOHN 13:1)
CALVINISM: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
CALVINISM: "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (PROVERBS 24:12)
CALVINISM: "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." (Job 42:2)
CALVINISM: "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it." (Ezekiel 17:24)
CALVINISM: "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;" (Ezekiel 20:25)
CALVINISM: "GOD QUICKENETH THE DEAD, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." (Romans 4:20)
CALVINISM: "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me." (Jeremiah 27:5)
CALVINISM: "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever." (Psalm 41:12)
CALVINISM: "THE LORD GOD HAS OPENED MINE EAR,..." (Isaiah 50:5a)
CALVINISM: "I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." (Isaiah 46:11)
CALVINISM: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Genesis 18:19)
CALVINISM: "Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:" (Psalm 10:17)
CALVINISM: "We do not present our supplications before you for our righteousness, but for your great mercies." (Daniel 9:18.)
CALVINISM: "IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WILL WITH MINE OWN? IS THINE EYE EVIL, BECAUSE I AM GOOD? (MATTHEW 20:15)
CALVINISM: "HE SEALETH UP THE HAND OF EVERY MAN; THAT ALL MEN MAY KNOW HIS WORK." (JOB 37:7)
CALVINISM: "GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH." (ROMANS 12:3)
CALVINISM: "WHEN THOU SAIDST, SEEK YE MY FACE; MY HEART SAID UNTO THEE, THY FACE, LORD, WILL I SEEK." (PSALM 27:8)
CALVINISM: "LET THY HAND BE UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, UPON THE SON OF MAN WHOM THOU MADEST STRONG FOR THYSELF." (PSALM 80:17)
CALVINISM: "GOD IS FAITHFUL, BY WHOM YE WERE CALLED UNTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." (1 CORINTHIANS 1:9)
CALVINISM: "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING, BRETHREN, HOW THAT NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, ARE CALLED:" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:26)
CALVINISM: "I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, IT: AND IT SHALL BE NO MORE, UNTIL HE COME WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; AND I WILL GIVE IT HIM." (EZEKIEL 21:27)
GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART
HBH AT EMAIL DOT COM
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
To Joel Suraj and Leighton I would ardently, adamantly, and most strongly disagree with the idea that the Gospel has changed and was different prior to Paul. There has ALWAYS been one and ONLY one way to be saved. By Grace thru Faith. JD answered that pretty well. I'd elaborate a bit more with "Lamb of God" stuff but I'll leave it there.
JD's question to Leighton about God being able to save everyone was OUTSTANDING! Simply SUPERB!! That said I would have to answer with "I can't answer that because it's a fallacious question. It's a 'Can God make a round Square, square Circle, or married bachelor?'" Why? Because God can't do the illogical and He can't violate His nature. Man is the Imago Dei. Man made in God's image. God has Free-Will. He gave Man Free-Will and He can't violate that. Moreover we have EVIDENCE of such in Satan and the demons that followed Him. They were in the presence of God. They saw God is ALL His glory. They were in Heaven. And yet despite all that they rebelled.
WHY did Satan and the demons rebel? To that I can only say for the same reason that Man does and would. WHY is that? I can only appeal to the same Mystery I did in my previous below.
18:00 OT vs NT ... God intervened on Jonah's ( Nineveh's Behalf ), But when Apostle Paul went to Jerusalem against the warnings of the brethren , HE didn't intervene despite the Calling of Paul was to the gentiles and wasted 2 years in a Jerusalem Jail , when perhaps his greatest 4th, 5th..?? journeys to places like Carthage, Rome ( 2 years earlier ), Spain, Gaul, Germania, England ..... and may have prolonged his ministry . Devine counterfactual only the LORD knows, but honored Paul's bad choices but did intervene to send him to Rome ( No recorded conversions in Acts since Jerusalem. shipwreck at Malta... )
Why do you quote John 6 knowing that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. It obvious, that Lord of Glory has not been lifted up, because in lifting Him up He will draw all me to Himself. Yes, it is true that the Lord chose his 12 disciples and His disciples did not choose Him. For they could not choose Him because He had not been lifted up. For even Jesus own disciples did not know who is was until the Father had revealed it to Peter. John writes in John 6 that no one comes to Christ unless he is taught by God. Obviously, there is a double meaning behind that lol. First, the 12 disciples are being taught by God prior to the resurrection because Jesus is God and second, we know that God teaching individuals will come in the new covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31 in which the Holy Spirit is poured out after Jesus death. So, yes, no one can come to the Son unless the Holy Spirit reveals Him but the Holy Spirit had not been unleashed until the Son was lifted up.
You'd think that this would be obvious for anyone who claims to know the gospel unto salvation.
The fact that Jesus is the One speaking screams to the reader that He was still walking the earth.
There was no gospel unto salvation in affect yet.
Jesus had not been crucified, dead and buried. He had not risen. He had not ascended. The Helper (Holy Spirit) hadn't come to convict the WORLD of sin. (Not just a select few).
Salvation was not obtainable by the hearing of the gospel. Only after Jesus had finished His work (lifted up) and rose again did this become possible.
The death, burial and resurrection was the game changer.
The fact that John 6:44 were the words of Christ should alert us of the changes on the horizon that will take place after He is lifted up.
@@djohnson3093 Exactly
@@ErnestHarris19
They were waiting for the promise.
Like Abraham, they believed and it was credited as righteousness.
There is no other name by which we are saved.
I have been watching Leighton Flowers for a couple of years. More often than not he has done a disservice to the Calvinist position by using derogatory and even downright inflammatory language in order to cast shadows on the doctrines of grace. Perhaps he should teach what Provisionists should hold to doctrinally instead of what they are against?
Amen brother
You said derogatory and inflammatory about Leighton Flowers. Great joke Pink Noise.
Can you please give me your thoughts about James White and his language? What words would you describe his language as?
@@TONyjustRoCks His language about Leighton is hardly a percentage of what Soteriology 101 produces and encourages daily. How’s that for good conduct?
@@pinknoise365 So you assume Calvinism as an ad hominem against Leighton. Great job. You have an unhealthy obsession with this man, and it clouds your judgement. You calling Leighton inflammatory and derogatory is so obviously slander because its demonstrably wrong. Like hilariously wrong, not even remotely accurate. Which again, points out some Calvinism/James White idolatry in you I think.
James White is literally the poster child for exactly what you accuse Leighton of. Most people dislike White due to his attitude and arrogance that is particular with other Christians. He is infamous for being inflammatory, which is what I find so ironic.
So your slander is enough for me to discern you, but with a "trendy" icon of Calvin alongside devil horns hand sign is another. I think you need to look more into that hand gesture, because yes that's what it signifies. If you disagree, just put up an upside down cross too, since that symbolizes saint Peter. No, if you had the spirit you would probably already know not to give any visibility to that hand gesture.
Step away from the keyboard, get off Leighton, and examine if you're in the faith.
_″...he has done a disservice to the Calvinist position by using derogatory and even downright inflammatory language in order to cast shadows on the doctrines of grace.″_
And Calvinists continue to insist that God is the one who unchangeably predetermined for Leighton to do exactly that for His own glory.
_″Perhaps he should teach what Provisionists should hold to doctrinally instead of what they are against?"_
This is where the irrationality of Calvinism shines. You know full well that he can change what he′s teaching only if God decreed it; and yet, here you′re asking as though Leighton has the ability to do otherwise. Be consistent!
JD-"they are determinist who redefine free will"
Could it be that people's definition of free will is more defined by the cultural influence of the time they are born in rather than what the authors of scriptures view of the will?
This conversation showed talking about the attributes of God in a Christlike manner can elevate to a form of worship.
God bless you two and much love brothers!
That you so much for your kind comment. I really enjoyed this conversation!
The free offer of the gospel is one and the same for LF or JDM both to declare. The fact there is disagreement on “how” God has worked, is working, or will work in that salvation is a different topic. Yet it often gets lumped together, prompting calls of “different gospel,” or “no gospel for Calvinists” or “man-centered gospel.” Come on folks, cut the caricatures. A mistake I see too often is taking the “fullest logical extent” of a strand of one’s philosophy and using that to frame the whole system. Its not intellectually fair, or edifying. After watching hours of both these men, I have found their manners to be engaging and charitable. (sadly a rare thing today).
I completely agree. We must not take the most extreme view of a positions that hardly anyone holds as the “true” position. This is unfair and uncharitable.
What do you call a system that preaches that Jesus only died for some unconditionally chosen elect people, and "passes by" majority of people? A system that teaches that God determines and causes all things that come to pass, including child r*pe and murder... and those sinful acts ultimately "glorify" God?
Does that sound like the Gospel of Christ or accurately portraying God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture? The Apostles tell us to stand firm and rebuke anyone who speaks perverse things, another Gospel, Jesus and God.
There is a line that simply can not be crossed. Either you believe in THE Gospel of Christ or you don't. Calvinism is so far off, it is a whole different religion. We don't go around calling Muslims brothers and sisters, do we? It is important that Christians stand up and call out false doctrines that turn people away from Christ.
@@eiontactics9056 to equate those holding to a Calvinistic soteriology with Muslims proves my point of concern. I want edifying conversations. Based upon your reply, I don’t see how one can be had, so I will not engage your points.
I would argue if a person doesn't have free-will they can never be guilty of sin. Without free-will we are essentially like the animals, governed purely by instinct, so therefore there's nothing we can do about our behaviour! A human being also loses his personhood if he has no free-will.
Agreed
Exactly.
Fascinating discussion and loving it. LOVE to watch two Brothers from different camps really get into the texts and wrestle what's said. SO MANY thoughts running thru my mind right now. Not sure I can even adequately enumerate them so as to make sense.
So I'm just gonna throw some things out there as food for thought. First, I don't think the idea that it's accurate to say God punished all in Adam as was said. Second, I like the way that Leighton pushed and kept pushing the WHY. That said I don't think one has to boil it all down and wind up at Mystery. But I also don't think Leighton has it right either. Personally, I think too much is being read into the "have sinned" or "all sinned". But it would take WAY too much time and space to expound/expatiate (I don't like "flesh out") in a detailed systematic way that would connect all the dots from beginning to end.
So, suffice it to say, that I see this all going back to The Fall and God removing His spirit from Adam and therefore all Men are born spiritually-dead IN SIN and as such their desire is to be their own God and they run from God just as Adam & Eve did. God came to them. They did NOT go to Him. God is Light and in Him there is NO darkness. Therefore Man does NOT come to God on His on. He "can" but He won't. It's NOT an "inability" but rather just as Jn. 3:19-20 says. They simply won't lest their sins be exposed. They KNOW that condemnation is what results if they do.
I hope that makes sense. The question for me is WHY do some men come under the condemnation and conviction of the Holy Spirit and respond by crying out for Grace and Mercy while others harden their heart and runaway from God again. That is the mystery for me.
Hello JD, thanks for the clarification on the different Calvinism categories. You spoke of superlapsarian. A lot I have some across are really extreme. They go as far as saying God wanted Adam to sin so Christ would come. What I have noticed too is they place less emphasis on love and rather have a love of their "doctrine". This I'm afraid cannot be Godly, it's rather akin to demonic tendencies. Especially because their favorite topics are predestination and naming and shaming any other Believer who doesn't share their view.
I once told some of them that I believe in predestination, but predestination goes hand in hand with our choices. They called me confused and insisted I have to believe in only one.
Many Online hold to Supra. But most people in general today hold to infra.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 ok, thanks for the insight.
Now I'm at the point which really brings to the surface and highlights why I LOVE these discussions SO much! A thought just occurred to me. Regarding Romans 9:11, I really wish the two of you would've done a piece by piece breakdown exegesis of the verse! Why? Because I believe there is a powerful truth in that which just needs to be extracted and I think breaking that down into its part and looking at the various ways it could be interpreted and all the "what if's", using Scripture of course to interpret Scripture, I think a light bulb moment may have happened.
One thing I'll mention is that when JD kept asking why this and why that, while highlighting portions of the verse, I kept thinking "Wait! God tells you why. It's right there! "In order (or "so") that God's purpose of election might continue". But what was/is "God's purpose of election"? That's when I had the thought I've never had before. Could it be that the "Israel" who is called the "Elect" would "continue" thru Jacob who becomes Israel in order to bring about the Elect One?
I asked this awhile back and no one answered but listening to this discussion again today I have to ask again. How can Leighton confirm the Perseverance of the saints or “eternal security” as he calls it but deny Unconditional Election?
I can’t see how Uncoditional Election and Perseverance of the saints can be separated.
if Ephesians 1:13-14 says that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance , and Matthew 13:18-23 says all people even those with “bad soil” can receive the Gospel with joy, but only those With “good soil” persevere.
And If
1 John 2:19-20 says those who commit apostasy were not given the Holy Spirit, And Leighton Confirms those who are given the Holy spirt persevere, Then I can’t understand In his view what separates the future apostate In Matthew 13:20-21 , “the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises he falls away “, ….
what separates that person from the Holy Spirit sealed believer in Matthew 13:23 is “the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.””
If Leighton doesn’t believe the difference is works based and believes the difference is the Holy Spirit for one and not the other. How can he then deny unconditional Election through regeneration and perseverance?
Every Christian believes in preservance of the saints and election. They just mean different things to different Christians. Catholics believe that all people are elected and Jesus enabled all to believe but not all people will believe. If I am sealed by the Holy Spirit I am protected from Satan, demons. They won't be able to break the seal. But I am free to dishonour God and break the seal myself and walked out of Christ. Christ promised us protection if we stay and walk in Him. And if we don't we may not be protected. If there are riots and pastor say to you: stay to the church you are protected here. Do you conclude that you are protected when you disobey your pastor?
As for Holy Spirit, do you understand you can grieve the Holy Spirit? Don't you know that Holy Spirit can departure from you and turn you over to Satan?
This entire argument comes down to ability. This question is answered by Jesus in John 3:17, Kosmos Sozo, all of humanity (Kosmos) has the ability, possibility and potentiality to believe and be saved (Sozo subjunctive mood). There is no such thing as total depravity/inability.
Please also note the following definitions of Kosmos "All of creation, the physical planet earth, all of sinful humanity, the world system, and in one case refers to the Jews". Please note Kosmos never ever, ever never refers to a small select elect group.
John 3:17
[17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
So who is the world? Every single person?
John 3:18
[18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
It looks like here it’s whoever believes in Him. If He dies for the entire world (every single person) then everyone would be saved. That is universalism. The truth is He died for those who have faith in Him.
God bless,
SM
@@ShepherdMinistry Yes, Kosmos is all of sinful humanity. Kosmos is never ever translated as a small elect group. Kosmos can mean all of creation, the physical planet earth, all of humanity, or the world system. God didn't come to save the universe, nor the planet, nor the world system, but, all of humanity. Same applies to Hebrews 2:9.
Feel free to go look this up, in any lexicon and the definition of the subjunctive mood.
@@JStevensdk7 “World” in Greek is Kosmos (G2889).
The Greek word kosmos, translated into the English word "world," essentially means an "orderly system."
The basic idea of the Greek work kosmos is "order" or "arrangement"; so the word may mean "adornment", as in 1 Pet 3.3, "outward adorning" (RSV; GNB "make yourselves beautiful").
The word world, has at least five different meanings in the New Testament: Every Individual: Acts 17:31; Romans 3:6; 1 John 2:2; Limited Area: Luke 2:1; Acts 11:28; Romans 1:8; Colossians 1:6; All Nations: Matthew 26:13; John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Revelation 3:10; 16:14. Secular Realm: Matt. 5:14; 18:7; John 1:10; 15:18; Rom. 12:2; Gal. 6:14; 1 Tim. 1:15; James 1:27; 1 Pet. 1:9; 1 John 2:15; The Earth: Luke 12:30; John 1:10; Acts 17:24; Ephesians 1:11; 1 Timothy 1:15; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 3:6
As you can see the word “World” can vary. It does not just mean everyone.
@@JStevensdk7 Another thing to consider is how John uses the term “the world” in John 4:42.
39 Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
John 4:39-42
In this passage, when the Samaritans say that Jesus is the “Savior of the world,” they are saying that Jesus is the savior of not only the Jews, but also the Gentiles. They are surprised that Jesus would reach out to a Samaritan woman, when Samaritans were looked down upon by the Jews.
It simply makes far more sense to believe that the Samaritans are using the word “world” to refer to not only the Jewish group of people, but also people who were not Jews (for example, the Samaritans), than that they are referring to every individual person in the world.
@@JStevensdk7 Here’s one of my favorites. Notice how Paul states Christ gave Himself up for the Church and not every single person.
Ephesians 5:25
[25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
As you can see the atonement was for those who believed. Yes, it’s an open offer to the world as there is a general call by Gods word for the world to repent. And yes the atonement can atone for more than the world. But it was only intended for those with faith.
God bless,
SM
Oh my gosh! What a missed opportunity you had JD. You framed your example and question here perfectly and Leighton knew it. I wish you would have held his feet to the fire and asked him to go ahead and give his answer again because it was a very different scenario you were asking him. (1:38:01)
“Asked and answered, ha ha, you just rephrased the same question.”
Boy, he’s good at diversion because that was not a rephrasing of the previous question. What a dodge!
You are right. I should have been more insistent here.
Hi JD Martin...i made a comment in the live chat that Leighton flowers commented on and i think it's very important...i said or asked does Leighton believe he can come to God without God....the way he answers the question is very ambiguous in my opinion as he seems to side step the issue by making it seem as if the question is asking that can someone come to God for salvation without God providing the way in that Jesus went to the cross died and rose again paying the price for his sheep...the question is not that can man make his own way without the provided way of Jesus get to God and save himself...in my thinking which I'm trying to work on thinking these things thru i think if you are going to be consistent in saying that libertarian freewill apart from God having anything to do with influencing my opinions feelings or anything that would override or sway my freewill to come to salvation... Meaning that the father the son or the Holy spirit can't do anything to my freewill to get me to accept salvation ....in order for it to be a completely freewill choice on my end it would have to be me reasoning on my own to decide i will accept the offer of having belief in Jesus Christ as my savior....and that's what i was asking when i asked if Leighton flowers believe he can come to God without God.... Which i would say the bible doesn't teach anything remotely close to in that you have the father giving the son and the son telling the father he will not let any perish of the ones he has been given and the Holy spirit working in those believers and guiding them all the way... Seems to me that everywhere in the bible it says God is the one bringing us to him....as i think John says we love because God first loved us and that's why we love because he loved us first not that we first loved God and believe but that we love and believe because God loved us first..... I appreciate your videos I'm working on these things ...i come from being saved in a pentecostal church but find myself agreeing with reformed theology with a continuing work of the gifts of the Holy spirit...let me know what you think ... i would appreciate if you can reply if you agree or disagree with my thinking on freewill which i believe we have but is consistent with our fallen nature
I think arguments like this primarily are built after one has already built their theology from exegesis and then is comparing their system to the other one. Thus, it is a comparative argument. I think we should primarily focus on exegetical arguments where the system is derived in the first place. This gets to the heart of the issues of why we as Christians should believe certain things rather than others. I hope I am making sense.
What a stupid question to ask Brother Leighton. You must be quite young huh ?
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Are you a Christian?
@@carlosquinones6336 I've been a Christian for over 43 years Carlos. Are you a Christian? I wonder if you're a Christian or just a calvinist . A calvinist Christian on the other hand is just a confused Christian that should actually look at what the texts actually say without cramming a paradigm into them . Your question to Brother Leighton was very disrespectful Carlos. It just gets so old seeing arrogant comments and questions like this in these discussions . Your question would imply that Brother Leighton isn't even a child of GOD in your mind to ask him such a question now doesn't it . After all it seems that calvinist are usually the ones saying who will go up and who will go down though isn't it ?
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 I asked what I think is an important question...if it's so simple why not answer the question..I asked if you are a Christian because you always seem angry in the way you comment...asking an honest question isnt disrespectful as i stated above im trying to learn and think these things thru...i don't care about the name tag calvinism ...church im a member of is pentecostal...i care about what the bible teaches and that's what i seek to learn
At 5:50, I know that Leighton doesn't like the teaching that it is God who determines the will of man, but that is precisely what Scripture teaches... Observe Revelation 17:17 - "For God gave it in their hearts to do His purpose..."
God's meticulous providence over human decisions and actions comes through His control over our affections (cf. Psalm 105:25, 106:46, Proverbs 21:1, Ezra 6:22, 7:27, Nehemiah 1:11, Acts 4:27-28, 7:10), by so doing, we are not robots responding moment by moment to individual commands and prompts in situations, but that He is in control of our decisions as we freely choose what we want.
Leighton may not like it, so he redefines "free will" in ways that are foreign to Scripture in order to support his own views of morality, but no thanks, I'll just stick with Scripture.
You’ll stick with Scripture all right…OUT OF CONTEXT! Read Romans 1 “He gave them over…” to do what they wanted to do anyway!!
If God determines everything then he is a monstrous devil.
I pray that the followers of the Calvinist Cult learn the Bible.
@@johndisalvo6283
How precisely is anything that I wrote out of context?
@@lawrencestanley8989 You eisegete and contradict yourself when you say we “freely choose what we want “ yet say He is in control of our decisions ! Answer this question please: When you lust after women, is God determining that you do, or is it totally your decision.⚠️BLASPHEMY WARNING⚠️
@@johndisalvo6283
So God isn't in control over our affections even though I gave scriptures that demonstrate just that? I think you're letting your narrative take over your reading of scripture. As for your sin question, when we observe Genesis 50:20, we see one action ordained by God, but two intentions - God ordained the action intending it for His glory (Joseph going to Egypt), but Joseph's brothers performed the action with wicked intent, making it sinful. The same is true for all actions of men. Observe 2 Samuel 12:11-12 where God declared 3 times that He was raising up evil from David's own household. While the immediate fulfillment was adultery, there was quite a bit more, including murder. Given that you are assuming blasphemy in my response, I take it that you do not believe the Bible?
CALVINISM: "SINCE THOU WAS PRECIOUS IN MY SIGHT, THOU HAST BEEN HONOURABLE." (ISAIAH 43:4)
CALVINISM: "WITHHOLD NOT THOU THY TENDER MERCIES FROM ME, O LORD: LET THY LOVINGKINDNESS AND THY TRUTH CONTINUALLY PRESERVE ME." (PSALM 40:11)
CALVINISM: "THE LORD KILLETH, AND MAKETH ALIVE: HE BRINGETH DOWN TO THE GRAVE, AND BRINGETH UP. THE LORD MAKETH POOR, AND MAKETH RICH: HE BRINGETH LOW, AND LIFTETH UP." (1 SAMUEL 2:6-7)
CALVINISM: "HE WILL KEEP THE FEET OF HIS SAINTS, AND THE WICKED SHALL BE SILENT IN DARKNESS: FOR BY STRENGTH SHALL NO MAN PREVAIL." (I SAMUEL 2:9)
CALVINISM: THUS SAITH THE LORD THAT MADE ME, AND FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB, WHICH WILL HELP ME; FEAR NOT, MY SERVANT; AND THOU, FREELANCE PUBLIC FULLTIME GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN.
CALVINISM: "IT IS THE LORD: LET HIM DO WHAT SEEMETH HIM GOOD" (HOLY SCRIPTURE/KJV)
CALVINISM: "BY WHOM [I] HAVE RECEIVED GRACE, FOR OBEDIENCE TO HIS FAITH FOR HIS NAME." ~ Romans 1:5
CALVINISM: "YOUR FATHER KNOWETH WHAT THINGS YE HAVE NEED OF, BEFORE YE ASK HIM." ~ Matthew 6:8
CALVINISM: "GOD IS JUDGE: HE PUTTETH DOWN ONE, AND SETTETH UP ANOTHER." ~ Psalm 75:7
CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME." ~ Psalm 71:3
CALVINISM: "AND THE LORD DIRECTS YOUR HEARTS INTO THE LOVE OF GOD." (II Thessalonians 3:5)
CALVINISM: "THIS IS MY REST FOREVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT" (Psalm 132:14)
CALVINISM: "THOU HAST GRANTED ME LIFE AND FAVOUR, AND THY VISITATION HAS PRESERVED MY SPIRIT." - JOB 10:12
CALVINISM: "FOR WHOSO FINDETH ME FINDETH LIFE, AND SHALL OBTAIN FAVOUR OF THE LORD." - PROVERBS 8:35
CALVINISM: "BE THOU MY STRONG HABITATION, WHEREUNTO I MAY CONTINUALLY RESORT: THOU HAST GIVEN COMMANDMENT TO SAVE ME; FOR THOU ART MY ROCK AND MY FORTRESS." - PSALM 71:3
CALVINISM: "BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL: AND [JOHN STEWART] HAS CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM [HIM]." (LUKE 10:42 [MODIFIED])
CALVINISM: BUT HE IS IN ONE MIND. AND WHO CAN TURN HIM? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRETH, EVEN THAT HE DOETH." (JOB 23:13)
CALVINISM: "BUT HE KNOWETH THE WAY THAT I TAKE: WHEN HE HAS TRIED ME, I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD." (JOB 23:12)
CALVINISM: "...BUT THAT JESUS ALSO SHOULD GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD." (JOHN 11:52)
CALVINISM: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants." (Luke 12:36-38)
CALVINISM: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." (Isaiah 25:9)
CALVINISM: "I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live." (Psalm 116:1-2)
CALVINISM: "HAVING LOVED HIS OWN WHICH WERE IN THE WORLD, HE LOVED THEM UNTO THE END." (JOHN 13:1)
CALVINISM: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
CALVINISM: "If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (PROVERBS 24:12)
CALVINISM: "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." (Job 42:2)
CALVINISM: "And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it." (Ezekiel 17:24)
CALVINISM: "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;" (Ezekiel 20:25)
CALVINISM: "GOD QUICKENETH THE DEAD, AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE." (Romans 4:20)
CALVINISM: "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me." (Jeremiah 27:5)
CALVINISM: "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever." (Psalm 41:12)
CALVINISM: "THE LORD GOD HAS OPENED MINE EAR,..." (Isaiah 50:5a)
CALVINISM: "I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." (Isaiah 46:11)
CALVINISM: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Genesis 18:19)
CALVINISM: "Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:" (Psalm 10:17)
CALVINISM: "We do not present our supplications before you for our righteousness, but for your great mercies." (Daniel 9:18.)
CALVINISM: "IS IT NOT LAWFUL FOR ME TO DO WHAT I WILL WITH MINE OWN? IS THINE EYE EVIL, BECAUSE I AM GOOD? (MATTHEW 20:15)
CALVINISM: "HE SEALETH UP THE HAND OF EVERY MAN; THAT ALL MEN MAY KNOW HIS WORK." (JOB 37:7)
CALVINISM: "GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH." (ROMANS 12:3)
CALVINISM: "WHEN THOU SAIDST, SEEK YE MY FACE; MY HEART SAID UNTO THEE, THY FACE, LORD, WILL I SEEK." (PSALM 27:8)
CALVINISM: "LET THY HAND BE UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, UPON THE SON OF MAN WHOM THOU MADEST STRONG FOR THYSELF." (PSALM 80:17)
CALVINISM: "GOD IS FAITHFUL, BY WHOM YE WERE CALLED UNTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." (1 CORINTHIANS 1:9)
CALVINISM: "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING, BRETHREN, HOW THAT NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, NOT MANY MIGHTY, NOT MANY NOBLE, ARE CALLED:" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:26)
CALVINISM: "I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, IT: AND IT SHALL BE NO MORE, UNTIL HE COME WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; AND I WILL GIVE IT HIM." (EZEKIEL 21:27)
GRACE EVANGELIST JOHN STEWART
HBH AT EMAIL DOT COM
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
At 23:49, you assert that "there are some that are so extreme that they will literally say that if you do not believe in Calvinism then you are not saved." OK, will you also denounce those in the "free will" camp who assert that Calvinists are heretics? I know that Leighton will not denounce them, rather, he has them on his show (Beyond the Fundamentals). If Leighton denounces Calvinists that believe that non-Calvinists are not saved, then he must also denounce those who believe that Calvinists are heretics or else he is a hypocrite.
Both can be saved even if there theology is wrong as long as they trust the Lord as their Savior and not in themselves.
@@b4ucmego
I agree; my point was Leighton's hypocrisy in denouncing the one, but not the other.
Leighton has many times expressed that he thinks of calvinists as brothers in the faith and told people not to condemn them as heretics.
@@lawrencestanley8989 the question you should be asking is, who is Jesus? A limited Savior or a potential unlimited Savior?
@@Mark-oo3om
Sir, there is no such thing as a "potential propitiation." Jesus did not die to make a “potential atonement,” rather, He died to make an actual atonement. Matthew 1:21 reads: “She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” The passage does not say that Jesus “might” save people from their sins, but that He WILL save HIS PEOPLE from their sins; Jesus made an actual atonement for a very specific group of people who are His, not a potential atonement for everyone in general. Jesus died to save HIS PEOPLE… He didn’t die merely to make salvation possible for just anyone.
Observe Hebrews 9:11-14, Christ, through His own blood, obtained eternal redemption for all of those for whom He died, so that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance (verse 15, cf. Hebrews 3:1, Romans 8:28-39). There is no such thing as a “potential redemption.”
Note again 1 John 2:2, he does not say "and He Himself COULD BE the propitiation for our sins..." but that He IS the propitiation for our sins. (here the word "world" means "all categories of people, both Jew and Gentile," see Revelation 5:9).
The word “propitiation” means:
1) “The turning away of anger by the giving of a gift” (Elwell, Walter A., and Barry J. Beitze. Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1988)
2) “The removal of wrath by the giving of a gift” (Bromiley, Geoffrey W., ed. The International standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979-1988).
Note that the wrath of God is not POTENTIALLY removed, it is ACTUALLY removed; that the certificate of debt has ACTUALLY been cancelled (Colossians 2:14). Remember in John 19:30 when Jesus declared “it is finished.” Either Christ actually accomplished redemption on the cross and secured it for all of those for whom He died, or if He simply made it available to anyone, then that requires us to add something to what Christ did on the cross for salvation to be effective.
So the question for the Provisionist is, did Jesus ACTUALLY remove the wrath of God from absolutely everyone without exception? If so, and if God is just, then that means that NO ONE goes to hell... Of course this is not so, because we know that there are many people who DO receive the wrath of God, therefore the propitiation that Jesus made HAD to be limited in its extent. We see this in John 3:16 as well where the atonement is limited to all of the believing ones.
Provisionism denies the scriptures.
Again, I disagree with Joel Suraj. Prior to Paul people had to believe (have faith) in the promises of God. And when they sinned they had to offer a sacrifice. Jesus is the fulfillment of the sacrificial system. It's the same thing. The faith in Jesus is the faith in the promise that He is the Lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the World and sacrifices are no longer needed nor is any other sacrifice sufficient.
Layton Flowers had a difficult time understanding the question by J.D. Martin that: Since God chose Jacob over Esau, or Isaac over Ishmael, before they were born, before doing anything good or bad, to fulfill His promise of the Messiah, how is it then that Jacob and Isaac both happen to be men of faith by which God carried out His covenants with them? Was it coincidence? Could God have just as well carried out His covenants with Esau and Jacob if they had been God haters? Or did God irresistibly give each of them faith by regeneration?
I would answer this question in the following way: God chose to carry out His covenant through Isaac and Jacob, before they did anything good or bad, because God, in His foreknowledge, already knew that Isaac and Jacob would be faithful - their works of obedience to God being the fruit or evidence of their faith - before they were ever born.
Jeremiah 1:5-6
5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew (Hebrew: yada, to know) you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
God made his covenant with Abraham because of his faithfulness to God, even willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac.
God renewed the covenant with Isaac because Isaac was faithful.
God renewed the covenant with Jacob because Jacob was faithful.
Faith was a key factor in God continuing His covenant through whom the Messiah would come. But God did not regenerate them so they could irresistibly believe; rather, God knew them before they were born, that they would be the persons of faith by which God would carry out His promise(s).
That does not mean Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or any of the Patriarchs were perfectly faithful and holy, but that God worked His covenant through these persons within the seed of Abraham because God foresaw their faith, that they would remain in Him by faith.
I am so glad you understood my question. I would love to talk to you more about this sometime. Do you have Messenger? Perhaps we can talk sometime.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 I would love to converse with you as well. My schedule is erratic though, and I am mostly up at night. As I write this, I am way past by bedtime, but I got caught up in viewing all the recent videos on the war in Ukraine. I was disappointed earlier last night when I learned of the advances the Russian Army made recently.
Could we begin communicating by email? That way, I could respond to you as I have time, and you could do likewise. I would likely respond back to you in any conversation within 12 hours, and likely far sooner in many cases. If things should progress in the future, then we could always adapt from there. My email is: fute72003@yahoo.com. Blessings to you Pastor J.D. Martin. I look forward to any discussions with you. Sincerely, Steven
Moses was also chosen by God, and still didn't God tried to kill him and if it wasn't for his wife he would die? Don't you think God could kill Moses, Jacob, And still raise another prophet to carry his lineage? Why do you think God wanted to kill all the Jews? He still would accomplish his mission which was to make Jesus out of seed of Abraham. After all Jethro, father a law of Moses was also son of Abraham, God could absolutely lead linage to Christ through him. So If God killed all the Jews with Moses he would still not fail. Failing is one of the things cannot do.
No one can come to me or no one can believe in me?
They're synonymous in the context of the passage (v. 35). "Believe in Me" and "come to Me" are the same thing.
How do you see them as different?
Christ uses them interchangeably and metaphorically so far as I can tell.
Mark 3:13
Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him.
Question
To a Calvinist is Mark 3:13 referring to the Apostles?
If so could John 3:37 also be referring to the Apostles?
@@Johnpaul-bv4tg
John 3:37??
I really don't get why Leighton had such a hard time understanding that in Amyraldianism people can come to, or respond positively to the Gospel but they choose not to. It's the exact same position that us non-Calvinists hold to when explaining why the majority of people reject the Gospel. They _can_ receive it, but they choose not to.
The only difference is that on Amyraldianism, _everyone_ chooses not to. Whereas on Provisionism, or Arminianism, the _majority_ of people choose not to, but some do.
You got it! Amazing. I sometime wonder if I am explaining things in an understandable way.
Because the fundamental belief of determinism does not allow it. It is contradictory. The Calvinist is blind to the contradictions his system ultimately implies.
I would say God has middle knowledge just based on the fact that he has all knowledge 🙂
I think I agree.
@@exploringtheologychannel1697 I don't think Molinism is necessary but as L.F. was saying when "Mere" Molinism is explained sure most would say yes of course God has middle knowledge. Well why not just accept that God has all knowledge? Where I get messed up is when Molinist start talking about possible worlds and things like that. Lastly I think ultimately when pushed Molinism collapses into Determinism. They will argue otherwise but ultimately God actualized this world ! 😉
GOD chose Jacob because of foreknowledge don't you think ? HE knew what Jacob and essau would do , therefore choosing the one that would be a man of faith ?
So you think God choose you because he saw how good you would be?
@@carlosquinones6336 oh. Of course , that's it .lol grow up
@@carlosquinones6336 you also know that you were indeed being arrogant in your question to me .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Im not being arrogant..i asked to know where you stand...and you didn't answer?
@@carlosquinones6336 your question had nothing to do with my comment Carlos. I asked if maybe GOD might have chosen Jacob over essau because of HIS foreknowledge of the fact Jacob was going to be a man of faith . You asked me " so you think GOD chose you because HE saw how good you would be ? " My comment said nothing about Jacob being good now did it ?. My comment had nothing to do with my salvation or being good now did it ? My comment had nothing to do with anyone's salvation because this verse in Romans 9 has nothing to do with salvation . It has to do with election not justification Carlos. To answer your question about salvation , GOD sent HIS PRECIOUS SON JESUS to die for the sins of the world and to purchase the world and everything in it . CHRIST has offered me a free gift of love and eternal life with HIM reigning and ruling on top of that . I chose to accept that gift of love that CHRIST offered me and called on HIS NAME in humility and repentance and HE saved me . I used the faith that HE gave me and all men and put it in HIM therefore HE blessed that faith and it grows and grows and grows . When one believes it places them in HIM and HE has chosen those in HIM to be predestined to the adoption , to wit , the redemption of the body . No one can be in HIM until they believe , no one is elect until they believe except for a few special exceptions such as Elijah, John the Baptist etc... Paul wasn't even in HIM until he believed . Once one is redeemed , they are adopted , glorified to be like CHRIST for we will see HIM as HE is . This is biblical salvation Carlos , Straight out scripture , reality and experience proves it to be true . I've seen so many calvinist try to explain away why they weren't saved the first several times that they heard the gospel . I mean why even push the calvinist doctrine of election because it doesn't have anything to do with the gospel and evangelism . CHRIST said go into all the world preaching the gospel to every creature . CHRIST did not say go preach to every creature that some are predestined to hell .
JD what where you doing when GOD came into your bedroom ?
I don't mean to offend, but this seems to me to be a very low view of God. God gave us means to be saved that he knew would fail everyone? Why even send the means then? Just elect and wait, or better yet skip all this suffering and just place the elect in heaven?
The means to be saved that GOD sent have not failed and without a calvinist "doctrine of election " at that .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 I agree all forms of determinism fail, including Calvanism.
> Why even send the means then?
You're assuming that if God doesn't reason like you do, then He wouldn't behave as you do.
Probably not a wise position to hold, since His ways and thoughts are above yours.
Basically, any time a person says "well, xyz can't be true because it doesn't make sense", they're using human sensibilities to judge God's actions. It's far better to say "xyz verse says God does this" or "xyz verse says God does not do this", and not use the limitations of your ability to reason to conclude whether or not God did xyz. God can and will have compelling reasons to do a thing that escapes your ability to detect, let alone rationalize.
@@timffoster no he's saying that the way calvinist represent GOD is disgusting and unbiblical . That for that reason calvinist seem to have a low view of GOD and agree and so do most Christian scholars with a high view of scripture . Calvinism being one of the most minority views in Christianity , especially among scholars with a high view of scripture you know . You know that's what he meant didn't you but you was gonna go on through the script with him I see .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Bravo good man. God is really smart and did not hide the truth on the basics from us. 😚🤏
Even Job knew what was needed for salvation. Naaman the leper went home with a dirt bible, and I look forward to seeing him in heaven. Salvation is super easy, anyone CAN do it. Whether they want to do it or not, is the tough pill. The only thing that makes sense of the text of scripture is real Choice.
The bible keeps entreating Humanity to choose God. Only Calvinism says that God made us unable to make that choice all the while telling us to do what only he can do.
?🤔?
God did not need to wait for Gnostic Manicheans to reveal what the bible really meant. By Gnostics I mean Calvinism's Interpretation of scripture which comes right out of Manichean Gnosticism.
Read "the foundation of augustinian-calvinism" by Dr. Ken Wilson if you want to know more.
JD, your arguments fall flat in light of Scripture. Why do you want the affirmation of Leighton?
I want the affirmation of God.
Flat Earth debate. Can't wait for that one 🙂
Coming soon!
Of course the Bible is clear that the earth is not flat.
I love when Leighton does this to calvinist . Lol
I'm a Shambag too lol, that's my testimony too 😆
You like that!
At 9:47, I can only speak for myself here, but when I use the word "permission," it is with the idea that evil does not come about by God's positive agency, but rather, God ordains the actions of men for His glory, but men perform the action according to their own wicked intentions, making the act sinful, even though it was ordained by God for His glory (that is, one action; two intentions). It is in this sense that God "permits" men to act wickedly.
That is what we would call a contradiction in terms my friend .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421
No, actually, it isn't. It is precisely what we see in scripture; that God permits men to carry out His ordination according to their own wicked intentions. See Genesis 50:20.
@@lawrencestanley8989 why are you and your calvie buddies always trying to make GOD the author of sin ? The while time calling yourselves Christians, it disgusting . We will all stand before GOD one day and your testimony will be " GOD I tried to convince everyone that YOU are evil and your creation man is a terrible creation " .You better wake up and stop this crap of twisting and dancing around verses in scripture trying to make your twisted calvinist paradigm work before its to late Lawrence. Stop and look at what you're actually saying here .You're saying GOD makes someone sin and then punishes them for it . That is so very much not scriptural Lawrence. Stop
Calvinism is just double speak. God gave man a real free will, not a fake free will. Not an apparent "free will" but an actual free will.
What is free will?
Man has the ability and responsibility to choose what is right. And God has determined all things that will happen. That is reformed teaching.
@@IronFire116 If God has determined all things then he has determined every child rape for his good pleasure.
Yawn…
Of course God have man a real free will. But the fall put man into bondage to the sin he chose to serve that day and as a result all that are born are under that bondage.
I understand that all are born in sin as a result of the fall but that doesn't mean that everyone lost the ability to choose. If that were true then there would be no reason to believe in God because everything is predetermined. @@seansimpson1133
At 14:45, Leighton asserts (in response to Alcorn) that if there ever is an example where God overrides the choices of man, that does not disprove libertarianism. This is simply not true. Where we find instances where God overrides the choices of man (and there are legion), in each case, we see that God reserves the right and has the power to alter the will of man at any time for His purposes - that means that at best, man's will is conditionally free, and if a will is conditionally free, then that will is not free at all, but rather, it is a slave to the one who places conditions upon it.
So, you don’t have free will in any earthly sense either then, because any one can override your choices at times, e.g., a thief stealing your car this morning to prevent you from your choice of driving your car to work. Or the government closing your gym during the lockdown. Or your kid eating the last slice of pie you left in the fridge and were planning on eating this morning. So, according to your argument, there isn’t such a thing as free will.
@@joevasanu7459
Precisely! After all, where do you think all of those instances come from? In Ephesians 1:11, Paul declares that God effects "all things" after the counsel of His will; this working declares God to be the ultimate cause of all things, excepting nothing. In Proverbs 20:24 we read that "man's steps are ordained by Yahweh." The word translated here as “ordained,” in the Septuagint is the word ευθυνω, which speaks of how the helmsman of a ship guides and directs the ship in the direction he wants it to go.
But it is actually much simpler than that. We are “free” to do what we want to do (that is, no man is coerced), but what is it that determines our "wants?" Indeed, we are bound in what we want to do by our moral condition and its desires (Romans 8:7). We may do as we please, but we cannot please as we please. Man acts according to his strongest desires, and yet man does not determine his desires. We cannot use our will to shape our moral condition, but rather, it is our moral condition that determines how we will use our wills, and every man born of natural generation from Adam is born into an imputed, Adamic, sinful condition that determines his morality (Romans 5:12ff). The will of man can desire only what his moral condition permits him to desire, therefore his will is by no means free, but rather it is a slave to his moral condition, and his moral condition is a slave to the will of God who ordains whatsoever comes to pass (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36), and this includes the fall which enslaved all of Adam’s descendants to a corrupt moral condition.
What we see in scripture is that man wills willfully what God wills him to will.
"if a will is conditionally free, then that will is not free at all" This is not true at all. Free will has never meant unlimited freedom, it´s always seen as limited by the parameters of the God that gave us freedom. Free will is commonly defined as two things; first that you are ultimate cause of your choice not other influences, and second that you could have chosen otherwise. None of those are challenged by the idea that God could sometimes limit our will.
That you are not always free does not mean you are never free or even generally free.
@@thomasfryxelius5526
You said: *"you are ultimate cause of your choice not other influences, and second that you could have chosen otherwise."*
Right, and this is precisely where Provisionists and the like either neglect the scriptures, or reinterpret them according to their narrative because they will not have God to rule over them.
I could list a TREMENDOUS number of scriptures that demonstrate God's meticulous providence, but two always stand out on this topic:
1) Romans 11:36 - For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (see also 1 Chronicles 29:11-14, Daniel 2:20-23, Acts 17:25-26, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 15:28, Ephesians 1:23, 4:6-8, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 2:10)
2) Ephesians 1:10-12 - …the summing up of all things in Christ… according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (cf. Isaiah 46:10-11)
In Ephesians 1:11, the text says that God “works,” using a present active participle of the verb meaning “to work” or “to expend effort,” "to effect." The Lord actively exercises His reign, effecting “all things” according to His will. In using that terminology, Paul leaves nothing outside of the purview of God’s active control. God is the ultimate cause of “all things," even sin and evil (cf. 2 Samuel 12:11-12), who upholds and governs all events, people and the choices they make, nations, rulers, and even the created world itself in His meticulous providence (Psalm 22:28, 47:8, 135:6-7, 147:15-18, Proverbs 16:33, 21:1, Isaiah 41:4, Daniel 4:35, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3). Jesus emphasizes that this divine control extends to the smallest details. He teaches us that our heavenly Father not only makes the sun rise and sends rain (Matthew 5:45), but also feeds the birds (Matthew 6:26), clothes the lilies (Matthew 6:28-30), accounts for the falling of sparrows, and numbers the hairs on our head (Matthew 10:29-30; Luke 12:4-7). And he demonstrates his unity with the Father by calming the sea at his own command (Matthew 8:23-27; Mark 4:35-39; Luke 8:22-25).
Freedom in the Biblical sense is most assuredly NOT that you are the ultimate cause of your choices, and that you could have done otherwise, for this is antagonistic to scripture and reason, but rather, freedom is simply that no one is coerced by God to do something against their will.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Hello again Lawrence!
I appreciate that you bring the issue back to Scripture, the highest authority on any matter. But I will not accept that we "neglect the Scriptures" beacuse we understand the texts differently than you do. For example; let´s use the Rom 11:36 passage you quoted:
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." Does this text even hint that we don´t have free will? No. Not a word about it is said. All things came through Him - creation, we believe that.
All things came through Him - All things were made through the Son, the Word, we believe that.
To Him are all things - The ultimate purpose of all creation is for the glory of God. God is glorified in the beauty of what He has made, He is glorified in the grace He shows to all people, and He is glorified in the judgement of all those who by their own choice rebels against Him. We believe all that.
The question here is not why we "reject Scripture" - we don´t - the question is why you think the text says something it does not?
(yes, I looked at the text in your list. They don´t claim we have no free will, none of them do.)
Eph 1:11 If you look at the context He is talking about all the things God has done to save us; He chose us in Jesus (ie He chose believers), He predestined us for adoption, He favored and redeemed believers, He revealed His glory to us and gave us an inheritance. All of these things He works according to the counsel of His will if you stick to the context. Is there anything in the text itself that implies this includes sins or evil? No, of course not. You have to import that idea. The text is not talking about everything that happens, but everything that God does for His children. Only if you rip this text out of context can you make it say what you want.
In 1 Cor 10:13 it says:
"No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."
So every time a christian sins, it is proof that we have free will. Why?
- God says in His Word He will not tempt us beyond what we are able to endure, and God does not lie. So we could have endured in the temptation
- But we don´t always endure, sometimes we give in and do sin, showing that we chose one thing when we could have chosen another.
So free will is biblical. Clearly.
And if you do not believe this, you end up, as you do, giving God the "credit" for all sin and evil in the world. How is it not blasphemy against God to say this? To say God causes all sin? The Bible does not do this.
The Bible says God can do whatever He pleases in Heaven and Earth, that does not mean He has chosen to control everything. One is about what God can do, the other about what He actually does. When we pray "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" it is precisely because His will is not always done on earth. Because God has given us freedom.
The Bible says God can stop anything evil from happening, so in a sense He has to permit anything that happens. But permitting and commiting are different. And if there was no free will, He would only permit what He Himself has made people and angels want to do. A great struggle that God is having with Himself in the end. When God condemns evil then according to your system He condemns what He Himself has planned, decreed and brought to pass. This is not glorifying God.
One final point; notice what the texts actually say and what you think it means:
God numbers the hairs on our heads - you conclude this means we have no free will.
God clothes the lillies - So then we definitely have no free will...
God accounts for the falling of a sparrow - So how can we have free will?
Why are you giving me a host of texts saying that God is completely aware of all things and in control? I have never questioned that.
Why don´t you instead give me texts that actually say what you claim, that we have no free will?
Great discussion, jd u are very humble. I like that u said we prob both have it wrong. Why do we think we know each and every way how things work, we don't.
I seriously would not be surprised if everyone was wrong about something on this issue.
bunch of confused people hahaha
For sure, an infinite God. He is probably laughing at our attempts. But it's still fun to discuss thanks brother
There is no Gospel or "Good News" in Calvinism.
The gospel is only for the elect, not the lost in Calvinism. It’s so sad. The blind spot is HUGE.
@@AlanaL3 Election is never about salvation in the Bible. Election to service not salvation.
@@b4ucmego yes I agree completely
@@b4ucmego Romans 8:29-33
[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
[31] What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
[32] He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
[33] Who shall bring any charge against God’s 👉elect?👈 It is God who justifies.
Ephesians 1:4 “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we
would be holy and blameless before Him.”
Mark 13:20 (ESV)
20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
Election is speaking of salvation.
Matthew 24:31
[31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his 👉elect👈 from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
God bless,
SM
@@ShepherdMinistry I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Romans 11:1-2
Wow Leighton is a 1 pointer? I don't think I have ever heard of that as a possibility.
OSAS has been around for a while.
Its not exactly the same as the P
A Bible Believer believes in eternal security because the Bible teaches it. A Calvinist believes in OSAS because their systematic (TULIP) implicates it. Two very different believes based on two different foundations.
@@eiontactics9056 Eternal Security is the Calvinist view, OSAS is just a derogatory term that Catholics and other haters of eternal security or more properly the doctrine of assurance use.
@@eiontactics9056 what did Paul teach I Romans 1-5 that caused him to anticipate the objection OSAS misrepresentation 6:1 What then shall we say shall we continue to sin that grace may abound, certainly not...
@@eiontactics9056 Reformed people don't teach that you can do whatever you want and be a Christian with security...rather those that have been born again will produce fruit and God will finish what He starts in them.
That's a whole bunch of contradictions JD . I can't belive the answer about believing the Quran..lol
It's like JD can't hear Leightons questions or is just dodging as calvinist usually do .lol
Libertarian free will is unbiblical and logically impossible. Apart from God we can do nothing including exist.
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Colossians 1:16-17 | ESV
Read 1 Samuel 23 Eph 5, then , please post a comment. Ty
Exhaustive Devine determinism is unbiblical and logically impossible.
Calvinism has blinded your logic.
@@eiontactics9056 No you’re just not emotionally strong enough to handle the truth about God.
@@javariusjavarlamariuslamar3759 logically impossible? Lol. So a little human creature is going to say what’s impossible for God to do? That’s cute.