Matthew Desmond On America’s Addiction to Poverty
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- Опубликовано: 20 апр 2023
- According to the Center on Poverty and Social Policy (www.povertycenter.columbia.ed...) at Columbia University, 14.3 percent of Americans - nearly 50 million people - were living in poverty in December. The scale of poverty in the U.S. dwarfs that of most of our peer countries. And it raises the question: Why does so much poverty persist in one of the richest countries in the world?
For the Princeton sociologist Matthew Desmond, the answer is simple: Poverty is a policy choice. It persists because we allow it to. And we allow it to persist because so many of us - whether we realize it or not - benefit from the exploitation of the poor.
Desmond’s 2016 book, the Pulitzer Prize winner “Evicted (evictedbook.com/) ,” was a powerful ethnographic account of what it means to experience the depths of poverty. But his new book, “Poverty, by America (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) ,” is less about the poor than it is about the rest of us. It is about the people who are more comfortable with the perpetuation of poverty than with the changes that would be demanded for its abolition.
So this conversation is about why poverty in America persists, the choices we could make to end it and why we as a country are so stubbornly resistant to making those choices. We also discuss the heated debate over how to measure poverty in the first place, why Desmond thinks poverty is primarily a product of “exploitation,” why over $140 billion of government aid ends up never making it into the hands of the people it’s intended to help, Desmond’s view that the U. S. does “more to subsidize affluence than to alleviate poverty,” why the daily cognitive cost of poverty is as severe as losing a night of sleep, how the U. S. passed its most successful anti-poverty policy in decades and then let it expire, why Americans seem more willing to tolerate high poverty than high prices, why Desmond thinks sectoral bargaining and public housing are key pillars of any anti-poverty agenda, what it means to become a “poverty abolitionist” and more.
Mentioned:
Evicted (evictedbook.com/) by Matthew Desmond
Homelessness Is a Housing Problem (www.ucpress.edu/book/97805203...) by Gregg Colburn and Clayton Page Aldern
“The Time Tax (www.theatlantic.com/politics/...) ” by Annie Lowrey
Scarcity (us.macmillan.com/books/978125...) by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir
“What the Rich Don’t Want to Admit About the Poor (www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/op...) ” by Ezra Klein
Book Recommendations:
What Then Must We Do? (academic.oup.com/book/28466/c...) by Leo Tolstoy
Race for Profit (uncpress.org/book/97814696638...) by Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor
Random Family (bookshop.org/p/books/random-f...) by Adrian Nicole LeBlanc
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Roge Karma, with Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Pat McCusker and Kristina Samulewski.
This is a powerful interview. Thank you.
Wow. Brilliant and valuable show; one I'll keep and relisten to and find some way to act on. Thx.
The gay jew channel. For wobbly spineless liberals
Thank you for uploading and sharing.
I'm so glad this popped up in my feed. Excellent show.
Great interview. I've read Desmond's books. And love them. Listened to a bunch of conversations and interviews with him. This one is excellent. My personal favorite.
It's weird when you think about class systems from ancient times ... India's caste system being one of the best modern day examples. Those people understood the easiest way to administer an advanced society, is to stratify it into economic tiers. To keep their society stable, you couldn't have an ultra wealthy 1% class without having ~20% living in poverty (no more, no less). Just using napkin-math numbers. That dynamic still holds true today. That 20% ensures there's enough slave labor, but is not big enough to overthrow the leadership. It also acts as a "there but for the grace of God go I" for everyone in the middle tiers to have something to fear (falling down), and to stay in the good graces of their betters. If you try to move people out of poverty - the "system" (whatever we want to call it) ensures you merely move the goal posts for everyone except those at the top. We still live with this legacy today.
Raise the tax rates of the wealthy and super rich, and those joining the middle class and escaping poverty will rise. Too much money into too few hands is your perfect recipe poverty to to grow, and grow and grow and grow and grow.....
In the case of Tennessee keeping people off food stamps is deliberate. I tried to apply 3 times last year when I was out of work and literally had no money and no source of funds. I am white, female, single and middle aged, all 3 applications were denied despite desperately trying to find a job.
people who need the child income tax credit didn't respond when it was taken away bc they were too exhausted working their three jobs.
we allow too much the suffering of others out of a need to HIDE our own. Its parallels the ability of the rich to hide their wealth...
As someone who works, I'm obviously not in favor of any program that diverts my effort to sustaining someone who won't work. Such programs should be funded by the obscene profits of the 1%, whose income is unearned--let rich slackers support their poorer relations; keep it in the family.
Brilliant insights and information. Thanx
Fascinating, thx Ezra! Though as a former long-time landlord myself, was also expecting more from the landlord's POV. Would add that a lot also depends on other variables, like mental health issues, which disproportionately afflict low income folks, as well as the 'culture' of poverty, with its well-known problem of 'learned helplessness'.
BTW, used to own rentals in AG communities, with mostly hispanic tenants, who often worked 2, and sometimes 3 jobs to support their families, and they always paid the rent on time. Unlike many of the poor white 'natives', who were often lucky to hold down even one job, and frequently ended being evicted for non-payment (as well as a host of 'other' violations). So differences in _'culture'_ also play a 'yuge' role.
I took an Uber ride and it cost me $21 before a tip. The driver, the working poor, received $4.99. The driver was shocked because he was told the corporation was taking ONLY 55% of the fare. Even if it was only 55% that’s outrageous when the driver has to work and support a car.
Yes😊
Holy crap.
So essentially one shouldn't fight poverty, but fight homelessness...
I've been poor with security of Tenure.... not bad if you are good at handling money
"So this is a book, in other words, not so much about the poor as it is about the rest of us.." Interesting to lump all listeners in with himself / i.e. to assume that all us listeners are definitely not "the poor"
So interesting about the millions of dollars not taken in welfare that people qualify for it reminds me of a 2016 book called "war poems" about a United States Marine who qualified for welfare based on the size of his family and didn't take it. He couldn't put gas in his car one week but he wasn't going to take welfare. Because he had a job, and he felt like he should be able to take care of his family
While more money has been spent on anti poverty programs that money doesn’t reach the poor because low and moderate income people have been allowed to capture those benefits. These better off people have become convinced they are poor when they actually could live well if they were better with their money. Meanwhile those living below the poverty line are truly invisible to policy makers and are finding it harder to access the basic means of living and often find the funds have been taken by those with 4 times their incomes.
Hello America, Ezra Klein needs to run for Congress and the Senate
It seems like mental health, and the concept of free will play a factor in help not getting to the people who need it most. I think among the homeless, there's a resistance to registering at shelters (especially in states with a mild climate). So the homeless people either consciously chose not to register with a shelter due to denial or fear of being "locked in" (thereby not being able to qualify for SNAP benefits without having a physical address they could use when registering), OR they simply lack the cognitive means to do so (mental health or substance addiction issues). But because society sees their circumstances as a choice, there aren't many resources dedicated to urging them or educating them on how they could alleviate their circumstances. That's why there's often private charity organizations that have to hit the streets to urge people to go through the motions.
Love the show.
Lots of technical concerns in what the author is stating. One example is he said he takes the mortgage deduction… that requires that you itemize your deductions. Typically the standard deduction is way higher than that so either 1) The author is just mistaken on his person tax situation or 2) he has a big amount of itemizing which is unlikely (something typically only rich tax advantaged people have).
the author lived among folks in poverty.
that's lots more than the vast majority of thoughtful people have ever done, and that experience is essential to understanding poverty.
if you've never experienced poverty on both a visceral, and technical level then you should stay in your lane, frankly.
funny enough, making costly errors on taxes are one of the bear-traps of poverty.
Actually, it shows how homeowners are privileged by the tax code. The mortgage deduction is often the largest tax deduction/credit available for individuals who don't own businesses; when other (itemized) deductions are added to the mortgage interest deduction, it's often more than the standard deduction. However, if you don't qualify for the mortgage interest deduction, it's not worth it to itemize, because non-business deductions often don't surpass the standard deduction.
@@aureliaglenn2220it is not. I'm a homeowner and the standard deduction is always a bit higher than itemized deductions I qualify for combined. The only thing actually helpful is the 401k contributions.
@@aureliaglenn2220holy crap.
Unfortunately, the results of the current status quo is a slow form of eugenics genocide against the middle to lower economic class's children and retirement age persons. But, that directed at retirement aged persons starts in their late forties/fifties. These combined stresses shortens lifespans.
Employers want workers, but they don't want employees to have time off for health, maternity, nor to care for a sick child, nor vacation time to tend to family. Benefits have been diminished over time.
And some people are whining, "why white families aren't having more than two children on average?"
If government money was the solution to poverty, it would have been permanently solved since President Johnson's declaration; “This administration today, here and now, declares unconditional war on poverty in America.”. This "unconditional war on poverty" has been a total failure since the poverty rate today is pretty much the same as in 1964, (and it had been dropping for several years before that) despite spending tens of trillions of dollars. It is not too much to say that politicians do not seem to have any interest to eliminate poverty and given how much it is mentioned during every election season they seem to have a vested interest in >not< getting rid of poverty.
When the government gives the poorest money they become dependent on the government (and politicians use that too). What the government does not do is to give them enough resources to act independently in an emergency. Who were the people in New Orleans who died in the hurricane Katrina catastrophe? Mostly the poor. They did not have the resources to escape and the government did not provide the means to get out. And the city government of New Orleans was a criminally corrupt one because a single party had run the city for several decades. (Ditto Detroit.)
How convenient that your argument is so narrowly constructed that it avoids nearly all empirical evidence that government intervention is pretty much the onky way capitalist societies avoid mass poverty.
1. you insinuate that the war on poverty was a failure, but you entirely avoid the evolution of wages, especially in regard to the discrepancy between executives and salaried workers (accelerated by totally corrupt coporate and tax policy)
2.look at the US compared to other modern capitalist societies: Scandinavia, France, Canada, Germany, Austria...
They might not be perfect, but America is among the worst in terms of poverty, and if you take into consideration the level of wealth we possess, we ARE the absolute worse.
And those observations are just the obvious low hanging fruit.
When you make such arguments without considering empirical evidence and context, you argue against welfare for PEOPLE but you basically argue for welfare for CORPORATIONS.
So spare me.
Buddy you make it sound like landlords don't exist as a concept.
There are war torn nations with fewer homeless people and better housing than you have in Murica. You don't know that because the same people you pay your rent to(your mortgage is just rent to maybe own much later) own the "news" you watch.
Except politicians have NEVER implemented ROBUST welfare programs.
Being "able-bodied" disqualifies you from most government benefits.
The real reason conservatives oppose welfare is because poor people won't work for slave wages if they have government benefits.
The government sets a low national minimum wage. It doesn't mandate employers offer benefits like paid sick leave or paid family leave.
It gives employers too much power to quash unionization efforts.
The labor market system is designed to allow low wage, low benefit jobs to profilerate.
Take housing out of the equity market. Build housing co-ops!
There should and hopefully will be more co-ops and similar forming going forward. Places that are driven more by community benefit and less by profit. We have used credit unions a LOT, and love them.
Excellent work Mr. Desmond. I get the intent here, but is a hand out the same as a hand UP? How do we shift from bandaids to solutions?
All come from this Earth, live upon this Earth, feed from this Earth and one day ALL will return to this EARTH.
TRUE or NOT?
Will these feel good gestures feel as good on the receiving end?
From experience, the answer is no. Not without some actionable information. I live this reality. (Pitiable eyes does more harm than good, for it is the root of the issue that must be addressed).
I have a solution if’n you’re ready willing and able… but pitiable eyes just won’t do. The actions/gestures are not for you dear viewer to Peek in and do nothing to feel as though you’ve tried, its for the person that needs the hand UP! Help them UP!
42.3K subscribers are here to assist… RIGHT? Ain’t that was this IN-ter-NET is for? Or does the desert-mind of scarcity through cheese n rice cover it up enough for you to not process your fears?
Or are we all just singin’ a sad song so as we can feel better?
If so, here’s one of mine:
Get off yur scrolller there child, ya done fell outta dat cart you be pushin’: sneak-a-peek; take-a-gander; check-it-out; have-a-glance; looky-looky gooshie-cookie; yur brains-done-beAn-fried; no-place-ta-hide; [they]-lied [they]-lied; now [they] want that hide; stuck in the cell of your self-made hell you ride the lies [they] made like they was yours to tell; flipped; switched; facebooked and twitched; ya kick with discord; flickity-flickin’ it flick-flick-flick; X’d and brain-dead; they got in yur head; dic-pic’d and ‘Doc-IM-sick’d; up on that chopping-block; licking dat lollipop as ya drop; more pills-to-pop; can’t stop won’t stop [they] laugh as you drop; drive thru #2 you eat that shhh; don’t say it just play it and then with pitiful eyes look DOWN upon that ‘self’ beat-down in that square, that DOWN-town there! RIGHT THERE! But can’t see it’s you? Can’t see it’s true… That’s YOU you fool... Time to wake from the shake-n-bake! Not to just ‘say’… but DO! Offer that hand UP! Not out. Cause in 2024, na Moe’… no more. Not gonna-gonna shoulda-coulda woulda-mighta awl-Too oughta… na Moe!, no mo’… Peace out! Go IN! GET UP! This way… There’s work to DO!
We can all do better to find a solution. A me ‘R’ I can! Can you? Who’s in? Who’ll get out there like this here fella in the video? Doin’ best he can… Best he knows how… to help him be better still! Who? Where are you? IT is Time to DO, yet do YOU?
Do we figure it all out above the soil or below it?
The worms and microbes could care less either way and MOTHER will thrive without US. Without HUMANKIND. Be both.
Give me 1% of Military spending and with your help, we’ll solve this pain. And even without it, as Mr. Desmond points out, the money is already there. It needs to be applied. Applied in the mind of each of us to be pleasant. Discuss SOIL. It’s not a protest, it’s a conversation on the common ground from which all LIFE lives. You in? Or just peeking? Think someone else cares more about you? That they’ll do it? Be pleasant talk SOIL and become the change you want to see.
What's the result readings of Andrew Yang's cash handout project?
Listening to this. One would never guess that housing is an issue that has been solved in dozens of nations across the world.
The Anglosphere nations are having a housing crisis because they deliberately empowered a class of people(landlords and capitalists) who artificially restrict your access to housing. Specifically because doing so is how they can extract the maximum amount of wealth out of you.
So what's the name of the book, Slick?
Poverty by America
Yikes.
These guys have a very narrow and distorted view of our economy and living in America.
The two presenters represent an elite class rather than the people who do most of the heavy lifting in our country.
Almost all of the problems in America are the result of a government program or franchise given to ‘improve’ something.
The presenters seem to want additional government programs and franchises.
Adding fuel to the fire.
Just 4 guys own as much wealth as the combined wealth of poorest 55% of your country's population. You obviously don't know that.
Your comment about my comment doesn’t make sense.
I don’t think your comment means what you think it means.
@@jamesbennett5430 You are totally blind to wealth and power it brings. The heavy lifting in this(and every) nation is done by workers. Workers whose wealth is ever increasingly being extracted to make a handful of already wealthy ghouls richer. That is the problem in America. You blame the state instead of your corporate overlords, because the government is the only institution you are conditioned(via the media owned by your corporate overlords) to focus your ire on.
@@Praisethesunson You’re one heck of a mind reader. Perhaps you can tell me what I’m thinking about right now - go!
@@jamesbennett5430 serious reactionary molotov cocktails
"#materialism and #morality have an inverse relationship. When one increases the other decreases."
We find that in modern times we have become very materialistic. We want to possess things and buy things. So we get so involved in that kind of thing and then we have to preserve all those things. We don't have time for community work or working for justice. And so we quietly accept injustice because we don't want to disturb our way of life.
The more possession we have, the more we are bound to secure them, and keep it growing, and keep it expanding. So we spend all our energy in that effort instead of trying to improve our lives.
[Mohandas Gandhi]
"this isn't a book about the poor, it's about the rest of us" my guy, we're all fucking poor. The rich have so much wealth they could buy and sell thousands of us at a time and you're acting like you're a paycheck away from buying the Rangers. XD
"Economic popularizers passionately deny that immigration causes wage declines and job displacement. From the point of view of several actual economists, however, these reassurances are so much uninformed propaganda. As the technical economists understand, wage cuts and job displacement are the exact and only ways that immigration confers any benefits on native workers at all. It is wage decline and job displacement that drives natives to shift to higher-paid sectors. No wage cuts, no job displacement. No jobs displaced, no benefit to natives. Here’s [labor economist Giovanni] Peri saying just that:
'Large inflows of less educated immigrants may reduce wages paid to comparably-educated, native-born workers. However, if less educated foreign- and native-born workers specialize in different production tasks, because of different abilities, immigration will cause natives to reallocate their task supply, thereby reducing downward wage pressure.'
When economists minimize the impact of immigration on wages, they aren’t denying that immigration pushes wages down in the jobs that immigrants take. They concede that immigration does do that. They celebrate that immigration does that. Instead, they join their celebration of immigration’s wage-cutting effects with a prediction about the way that the natives will respond."
thanks for the random ass quote attributed to nobody, great contribution.
In reality, immigrants contribute to the economy by filling jobs that your comfy ass won't do, I don't see any white folks lining up to pick fruit. Working these jobs, they pay taxes towards services they often don't/can't use and social security they won't ever withdraw from. Jobs create more jobs, someone needs to manage the fruit pickers, someone needs to serve the food, gas, and consumables that they consume. More money going around, more jobs. This does not lead to your wages being depressed.
This is proven in the data, wages actually go up the more immigrants we have. A decline in wages is felt only in the group who are high-school drop-outs, and it was by 0.2%. As noted by Dr. Card however, this is more than made up in the increased funding for entitlement programs that taxing immigrants provides, here is that study: davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/new-immig.pdf
This later study also shows the same trend: www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.pdf. By that same Giovanni Peri, who is not saying "it is wage decline and job displacement that drives natives to shift to higher-paid sectors." That is invalid conjecture on the part of whoever said that, B does not follow from A.
You're welcome.
So Economists are deliberately delusional handmaidens to the capitalist overlords that control employment. Got it.
This guy doesnt live by any public housing....😅😅😅😅
America doesn't have real public housing.
Vote MARIANNE WILLIAMSON 2024 to stop the corruption.