The new Sage Advice update's got a clear answer on Legendary Resistance! \o/ "Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance? No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success."
Honestly I've been in playing 2 different characters with silvery barbs and it Honestly only is worth it in very niche cases I would still rather take something like shield over it. But idk maybe that just my opinion.
Thank you for the shout out! I'll give you a shout out after work. Theres a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooott of stuff with this spell like its seriously complex and some stuff is just really hard to quantify.
This spell is emblematic of the reason I prefer non-D&D games more and more. As a player, you think you want this spell and it will make the game more fun. Because it is so good it will overshadowed everything distracting from cinematic moments. This best choice makes more interesting choices less choose-able. Guidance is similar. I used to love it and now realize it is the worst cantrip in the game. Not mechanically but in terms of it's impact on cinematic focus and banal ubiquity.
While I call him out for using "super disadvantage" math on it after the fact of casting the spell, it is not entirely wrong. You just need to make sure you're doing this calculation before any dice are rolled and with the commitment that you WILL cast the spell if the target makes the save. But he still need sto be careful to calculate the odds on advantage vs. this spell more carefully, because advantage still skews the triggering die roll's result higher, making the expected value of the triple higher, as well. i.e., advantage makes it more likely you'll cast the spell, and once you cast the spell, the odds of THAT roll failing are the same as any singleton roll's odds.
I agree... with you and bards just became better. Theres 2 things i really in love. Enchantment and it usually suck. Becouse theres things that if the guy fail the save he gets put out for many rounds or permanently. Enchantment allow roll every round making it usually bad. And this make it more plausible. Second thing its necromancy and it suck too.
And as an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, you can substitute Arms of Hadar or Dissonant Whispers as one of your Psionic Spells. This means that at sixth level, you could cast it with sorcery points without the need of the verbal component, so even Silence can’t stop you. Though then again, there is Metamagic for that.
Put it on a rouge. Now you have advantage on your next attack due to this reaction. I repeat: you can give yourself advantage on your next attack, as a reaction.
The "Nope-o-mancer" Halfling: Lucky, w/(feat)Lucky, Divination wizard: Portent *multi-classed with* Lore Bard: Cutting words. Prepare (lvl1)Shield, (lvl1)Absorb Elements, (lvl3)Counterspell. Consider using (lvl1)Bane, along with ANY effect that bestows disadvantage on the D20. NOW: add this spell to the mix. Don't forget to apologize to the DM during character creation.
There is another feat called Bountiful Luck for Halflings. They can use the Lucky Racial Feature to others around you within 30 feet. This uses a reaction, but again another "Nope" to the mix.
halfing level 1 peace cleric divination wizard with the lucky feat. the peace cleric ability is basically bless that you can throw on multiple party members and lasts ten minutes. stack a bless on top of that, now start using silvery barbs, then portent, then lucky dice, give guidance out of combat, keep gift of alacrity going to always be first in initiative. you might as well stop using dice as a group because no player is ever failing a roll again.
One thing worth noting on the legendary resistance bit: whether or not the spell would override legendary resistance, I still think it's worth your while to bait out a legendary resistance check with a first level spell. By the time you're fighting monsters with legendary resistances, you'll have the spell slots to burn, giving you huge value.
As for the legendary resistance thing I look at it like this it's like this you cast a spell it fails it uses legendary resistance you use silver Barbs It uses legendary resistance this one your party member uses party member uses the spell again it uses legendary resistance if it Then your 3rd party member uses the spell again and you effectively gotten rid of all the creatures legendary resistances on one turn Then the rest of the spellcasters in your party obliterate the thing with spells Especially considering at this point you can now have given at least 3 of your party members advantage because of the 2nd half of the spell
@@fenrismarks876 There is another interpretation. Silvery barbs doesn´t impose a new saving throw, just make you roll a new d20 for the same saving throw. If a creature uses legendary resistance, success on the save no matter the result of the roll because the creature choose to succed instead. Treantmonk have a really good video explaining this. Make sure to ask to your dm how is going to rule it.
@@adriel8498 Even if, for the sake of argument, it made you reroll the d20, I'd still rule that Legendary Resistance still succeeds. LR doesn't care about the die roll- it doesn't say the die roll succeeds. It says If X fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead. So, even if you reroll, regardless of the outcome, the creature still succeeds the saving throw against that spell/effect.
As a DM I would rule that silvery barbs does not affect a creature using legendary resistance RAW. "... when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself *succeeds* on an attack roll, ability check, or a saving throw." Legendary resistance, "If [creature] fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead" is not used unless the creature fails the saving throw, and then decides to use it. Silvery barbs does not force a fail, it forces a reroll; but legendary resistance is not a roll, it's just a blanket success limited in times per day. If the creature succeeded on the original saving throw roll, silvery barbs could then force a reroll, potentially burning a legendary resistance if the reroll was a fail. RAI legendary resistance and legendary actions are in place to help out powerful monsters that are typically encountered alone and therefore are at a disadvantage vs a party's action economy. In 3.5e dragons, high level demons, liches etc were often a letdown in practice because they'd get at most one turn before the party used its high level abilities, spells, etc and wiped the thing in one or two rounds. LR and LA help with both the save-or-die stuff and the action economy, having a 1st level spell essentially nullify LR does not make the game more fun. If you want it to work that way in your game I think it would be better off at lvl 3 where it competes with a lot of other excellent spells and can't be cast at-will by a high level wizard. Also note that other abilities that change the results of monster/player rolls retroactively, (like the chronurgy and divination abilities) do not work on legendary resistance and are limited to a static 2/day.
Hypothetically speaking, even if we simply assume you cannot use Legendary resistance on this using silvery barbs, you used your *reaction* and a *first level spell slot* to force the boss to use one of of it's VERY VALUABLE, 3 SILVER BULLETS. If that's not a win, you're doing it wrong.
Straight up nearly guarantees a burn of a legendary resistance on a reaction. Bard tried to hold person BBEG? Fighter just forced BBEG to burn a res. Wizard tried to hold person BBEG? Now the Bard forced the BBEG to burn a res. It’s so strong and so easy to get you can have the whole party have it and burn legendary res quite easily and then force a strong effect or fight ending effect on a BBEG.
In my opinion, it should be a general rule of thumb that any ability that forces someone to reroll a saving throw is pretty likely to be absolutely busted. Also, the Pack Tactics shout-out makes me smile fr :D I love the content from both of you
This and Lucky feat are on the exact same level of overpoweredness. Let that sink in, a 1st level spell on a reaction is just as good if not better than one of the most broken feats in the game.
My biggest point with things that players can do is that their enimies can do it too. So if they start abusing and using a spell a lot their enimies will learn and start using it too. The world is dynamic make it feel like they should be careful with their actions from a none game design perspective. Maybe they only use it in combats with no survivers.
I think the Legendary Resistance part doesn't work in practice. Legendary doesn't require a roll. So no matter what is rolled the save succeeds. Orcas could drop a nat 1 on the triggered roll, but it doesn't override the success.
Legendary Resistance does require a roll. "If Orcus FAILS a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead." He must first roll to see if he fails in the first place. Edit: also it goes to a trigger thing. The spell reacts to a success. It doesn't specify a rolled success or not. It says when they succeed they reroll. The roll must be finalized and decided as a success, after that they make you reroll. It's not that they are making you roll another dice in the same roll. It's a completely different roll. They used their legendary action to succeed the first roll, and the second roll is a SEPARATE roll against the same effect, and thus the Legendary Resistance is no longer in effect. Just like how any advantages and disadvantages exclusive to a single roll would not carry over.
@@ElijahForLong WotC clarified that your power gamer reading was wrong. Legendary Resistance is that you just succeed no matter what you rolled. Forcing them to reroll doesn't matter because it is still the same save and they already succeeded on the save.
"Best" spell in DnD is hands down "Plant Growth". Plus 33 percent crops in a few mile radius is a huge deal. Control Weather is good too, to water crops during a drought or ensure dry weather during harvest. From lower levels, Cure Disease, Invisible Servant, Create Food and Water, Remove Poison and Cure Woulds are all good spells.
It's amazing how few spells there are that make life for the masses better. Plant Growth. Sure. But how many spells are saved for the signature block of their target's obituary? I think it's a conspiracy by big Hogwarts!/Blackstaff!/Insert magocracy here! Of course the peeps in power don't want to empower the serfs and peasants! They deliberately remove spells that help the masses from all records, so no wizard or bard ever learns of them! They strike deals with fey and fiends to bind the divine powers from helping the masses, in favour of only supporting an elitist few! Rise up! Reject the magocracy!
No joke plant growth (If there are plants in the area you are fighting) IS super busted 100ft radius 150ft range you can exclude any area you want, instantanious no concentration, 4 ft of move to move 1 ft, not difficult terrain so it stacks with difficult terrain, etc Its pretty legit.
Haha I asked my DM if I can use this as my Spellmastery Boon spell so he had to look it up. Looks like we're gonna have to fight alot of minion wizards for the next boss fight
A boss with 5 spellcasting sorcerer minions who _only_ have this spell. They just stand around while the party fights the boss yelling "Hey fighter, you hit like my sister! Anybody else hear a cat yowling, or is that just the bard?" and then turn around to the boss and give him a thumbs up "You're doing great Harry, these chumps got nothing on you."
Fea court of spectators constantly casting this spell against your party fighting w/e enemies the court deems hilarious for the party to deal with at the moment. Mechanically impactful jeering
Also abberant mind sorcerer's can cast their subclass spells with a one to one sorcery points, and can change out those spells with enchantment and divination spells. So you could make this spell one in your list and only cast it for a single sorcerery point!
Spell as written is nuts and should be 4th level. I think the best way to change the spell is to start by stripping out the advantage part, limiting the 1st level version to disadvantage on their next attack which doesn't already have disadvantage, and changing it to a bonus action. Upcasts will then allow it to work on ability checks at 2nd level, and saving throws at 3rd. As a bonus action spell can only be cast in combination a cantrip so a co-operative settup with another caster is required to be especially useful.
Legendary resistance ignores the dice roll and just succeeds, which is mega strong. And spending a 1st level spell slot to make Orcus waste his 3 LR is really good
😍👍I just got there binge-watching all your videos and I absolutely love them. I do a little art, story and background stuff for a friend that DM's so I love to learn more and new things about DND to help.
an aberatemind sorcerer replacing arms of Hadar with silvery barbs, and the lucky fear with heightened spell meta magic., a chronologist wizard with silvery barbs and the luckey feat
never heard of these spells before, but he convinced me silvery barbs is on my banded spells list now, so is wither and bloom and I need to think about the vortex one.
Absolutely loved this video. You're so nice to listen to and you explain everything really well, along with your visual cues and fun avatar. This is the first video of yours that I've seen (shout out to Pack Tactics for shouting you out) and I'm already subscribing! Keep up the awesome work! :D
It's definitely the best value spell in game at the moment. It could stand to be nerfed either take away the advantage or raise the spell level. 3 might be too high of a spell level though. I personally don't think it's too broken to play. It's definitely nice to have another way to influence fights through magic especially something without a save or concentration. But rerolls are not success's or failures and if they succeeded before they're still pretty likely to succeed again (at least it's not pathfinder). Granted it stacks so that really makes it powerful that might be another acceptable way to nerf it by preventing "super disadvantage." The major problem with this spell is how it can suck a lot of the fun out of the game for the DM. You're already supposed to lose now being unable to get off the cool features (which was already hard/rare) is going to make combat tougher to enjoy. I'd check with your DM before taking this spell. Also you cant use it on stealth or social situations without being able to see the 1 other creature+within 60ft+and use subtle spell on it or else suprise they know you cast magic on them prepare for hostilities. So it only really breaks combat. Seriously we need metamagic rods in 5e a feat is too much for a once a day casting of subtle spell.
Can we also point out it is purely a verbal component spell making it incredibly easy to cast? Adding a used up, gold value material component could also be used to balance the spell.
A material component would end up making it an action, as you'd need to whip out the component to use the spell (or touch, or whatever other flavour text would be added to the spell to justify the material component). At least, that would be my thinking on that one. For the spell to be *that* useful (as in, useful enough to be considered one of the top spells in the game as a whole), it has to be a reaction. Bear in mind that you only get 1 reaction per round. With that said, can you imagine the carnage you could cause if everyone in your party dipped at least one level of Bard, Sorceror or Wizard, just to get that spell? I'm imagining it right now, and it's glorious :D
@@evaahh9584 Shows what I know! I'm not an expert on 5e, when I play D&D the DM I play with still uses a mix of 3e and 3.5... Out of interest, what is the material component for soul cafe?
My assumption is it is "Disadvantage" but you don't have to burn the spell slot until after they succeed. What will be interesting is (1) "Does WotC increase the spell level/errata it?" and (2) "How JC replies/replied to the mountains of tweets I am sure he has received?" Either way, it is a very strong spell, especially at first level.
It's actually closer to a recasting. With disadvantage, you roll two and take the lower. With Silvery Barbs, they already succeeded so you force them to re-roll that success and try again. They already succeeded, so you are just trying again. Know what also tries again? Waiting a turn and casting the spell again. The power of this basically giving an option to 'upgrade' a first level slot to a higher level slot... paying a reaction and any potential disadvantage they might have for a real re-cast. But I mean, bestow curse a creature, then try to banish with that disadvantage, and if they succeed, silver barbs to basically try banish again but a straight roll... and if they still remain, try again next turn... until you run out of 4th levels. But hey, sharing is caring... you can silvery barb when I try to banish the creature.
I’d be in the camp of this not working on legendary resistance just because it feels like it may get an FAQ that it doesn’t work that way against legendary resistance.
Well, RAI - yes. But if RAW is so badly written that we need to look at RAI - it’s bad writing. Of course it’s easy to assume that everybody will not be using it with a Legendary Resistance, but, you know, there is always that guy at the table. It’s easy to just add exception to the wording, so why not just add it to ease a game for so many DMs?
Yeeeeaaaah...this is way too OP. Honestly it would still be a fantastic spell if it was just disadvantage on an *attack roll* and advantage to another person. Like it could be a ranged support shield spell which could be freaking great. But automatically giving disadvantage to a saving throw as a reaction?? There's a reason it's hard to do that and usually involves already failing a different saving throw first (like in bestow curse)
Numerically it's weaker than bless. Oh sure, you give something a -5 and someone a +5, once. Bless gives about +7.5 a round, over 3 or 4 rounds of an average combat. It also benefits from upcasting.
@@ChazTheYouthful Yes, as a DM, i encourage this kind of thinking frankly. Sure, it might derail my campaign, but it shows my players are actually spending time thinking about what they will do.,
Yeah, at the VERY LEAST this should be 2nd level, but it’s still insane. This is a grave cleric on steroids, and is one spell. I’ve never been the kind of DM that makes bans in a game, but holy hell this makes me want to.
This is better than lucky, especially at higher levels. this spell is super good and a min/maxing asset. The second half of the spell should have been an up cast option. Being re-roll and giving advantage all at level 1 is nuts. I'd make the second half be at third level spell slot use
6:15 Actually that's not how it works with legendary resistance. Legendary resistance makes the save a success it doesn't do squat about the rolls. So you can use silvery barbs after someone uses legendary resistance but it is still a success because any saved which you used legendary resistance on is a success no matter how many times you reroll the underlying dice. It's still the most powerful spell in the game. 6:45 Yes they would reroll then they would again autosucceed because it's the same save and they already used legendary resistance. 7:00 Sure you can argue all you want but the wording of legendary resistance doesn't mention the word roll so you would be wrong.
I dont know why people are treating this like its ambiguous. It's quite clear. If they choose to succeed on the saving throw, they succeeded. Not the roll, the throw.
Honestly I think that WotC should have made more feats and that Silver Barbs should have been a feat available to members of the college of Silverquill. I'm genuinely kind of disappointed with the way they went with the new "feats"/backgrounds but I'm curious to see what you think.
Imagine the combination of mind Sliver and silvery barbs essentially granting disadvantage and they'll have -d4 to their roll in addition combine that with an effect that actually grants disadvantage against spell saves for example Shadow sorcerer's hound of ill omen a source of damage and disadvantage for a low cost (also you can summon multiple you aren't limited to one so you could stockpile a couple during a fight to keep the effect up longer) the enemy would essentially have double disadvantage and a -d4 to the save
Better yet, be an Eloquence Bard and subtract a Bardic Inspiration die with your bonus action. That's -1d4, -1d6, (up to -1d12 instead,) and a reroll to take the lowest. That's before disadvantage and Portent, which can also be added onto things to reduce the roll even lower.
That really is a solid replacement option for Shield. Has an awesome ebb and flow control style too it. Impose "Disadvantage" on a roll, AFTER YOU SEE THE RESULT WHICH IS MASSIVE, and then you can double down on the punishment as setup for your Save or Die control spells or if you're not in range, out of slots or generous setup your allies next turn!!! It's such a great spell and as a DM I'm 100% approving it in my games may even incentive spell castors to take it since it creates teamwork dynamics more fluidly. After bringing up the Magic Initiate feat and Fey Touched I did become hesitant about keeping the spell as is but the more I think about the less of a problem it is too me. I run a general 3 Social Encounter 3 Combat Encounter type game every session and if they're burning all their spells on this reaction spell my group will run out of options later on down the road. This spell is powerful but not too overpowered in my opinion if you're following the recommended DMing encounters of 3 - 5 combat a session. On top of it being a bait in mob encounters against low health enemies since you're using 2 spells to kill 1 small creature when you can let someone tank the hit and finish them off with 1 spell (HP is a resource too you can convert to spell slots in a way). A strong spell in single target encounters, social or combat, but balanced out if you mix in mobs and enemy mages. Not to mention Puzzles lol, can't do the Advantage shuffle on a riddle.
One problem I see: Have your friend hit you (should hit if your a wizard lol). Use your reaction to trigger this spell, and there you are, just used this spell to give you advantage on any ability check out of combat
@@MehrGills I don't see the problem. Makes for a funny slapped some sense into the PC moment. The roleplay and fun would more than make up for it as well as the stigma I'd impose if they abused it about a masochistic party of adventurers. Surely running into a Tavern telling tales of their silliness will make them curve the abuse of it if not I'll enjoy making fun of them.
@@singularity1130 sure, it's funny and the rp is kinda neat, but that's broken. It's a second level spell to give advantage on a specific type of checks, it's a debated cantrip that gives a d4 for the next check. A first level spell that gives advantage to effectively every check out of combat is insane, especially with wizards who have Arcane recovery to get back many of those spell slots over a short rest
@@MehrGills I hate to say its important to a tables health online or off you're able to communicate concern. If you're worried your players will abuse it then you need to speak over the table and clear up this concern, removing players who object, in order to maintain a fun and workable environment. If I couldn't balance social encounters around this thing then I would say so and ask the PCs to limit themselves or set a Homebrew rule that we'd all be able to agree upon. I'm a forever DM and this kind of problem is ever present and I address it as an adult to my players expecting them same with them. They understand the fun stops if I can't make decent encounters (most are investigative players so RP and Social Encounters are important) and I've already talked too them about Silvery Barbs. So far I see no issues but when they arise I'll speak up and they'll limit themselves if they see it as too much as well so they've told me. That type of game design comes down to: Talk with Players. It's not our job to gimp our players or make the perfect encounter to encompass all potential spells in the game; impossible. It's our job to set the scene and create intractable pieces for our players to explore and grow as they write their story. If SB would remove options for growth and RP then they lose out and I'd be sure to tell them how limited and lacking in challenge the world would become. I make it a habit to tell them how many NPCs, Items and Encounters they missed to keep them on their toes and looking in future sessions; I'm sure once we're done with our current campaign if the number grows staggeringly so they'll cut back on it.
I had a Witch character in my CoS campaign. This was of course a homebrew class with homebrew spells. One of which could, as a reaction, force a creature to make a Wisdom saving throw whenever a creature takes the attack, disengage, dodge or dash action. If it failed, you can choose which course of action the creature takes. It was OP to say the least. Silvery Barb reminds me of that spell and because of my experince with said spell, I will not allow it in my games
Yes, I would allow this spell at my table. This consumes a reaction, leaving what is most likely a squishy caster without their shield spell, or counterspell. It's also something I could just as easily give to an enemy, and have it used on the party as well. I really don't see this as that big of a deal, as I know there will be ways to play around it, and it adds a challenge to both sides of the table with smart play.
Except it janks up the elegant and effective advantage/disadvantage rules. And it does so just to sell digital copies of the book. Every power player on Beyond is gonna hafta have this. Its a petty, bureaucratic arms race. Packaged in a lame Harry Potter knockoff.
Well That's pretty shortsighted. Do you add shield and counter spell to every caster they face? If yes, how do you keep a party from being angry in battle. I cast a high level spell-counter that I hit him with great weapon master-no you didn't. This happening every fight with someone packing slots, which almost all things do after you reach mid tier, will frustrate players a lot.
There are no ways around it though, short of anti magic and blowing a 3rd level spell slot to counterspell a 1st level spell… and even THEN, you know a first level spell is broken asf if someone deems it necessary to forgo their reaction and spend a 3rd level spell slot to nullify it… and for some reason, you take this reaction AFTER you see a successful roll, so I don’t know how you’re even supposed to roleplay this as a level 1 spell.
@@J0eMega You can use the lucky feat to counter it. Additionally everyone is talking like this guarantees a failed roll. It makes you roll at disadvantage for a single save oh gosh so terrifying. Depending on your build and/or party make up disadvantage on a save is meaningless.
This spell is basically like offensive counterspell and i love it my god. Magic initiate got very powerful. But warlocks should totally have a mask of many faces style invocation that gives them access to at least a few of these per day. My god it's amazing.
You are so right having only three of your party able to force rerolls of the same saving throw is not enough. But never fear when your warlock casts polymorph their friends can force the target to reroll until it sticks. Every time. In every encounter. You will never have to fight anything again. Happy gaming.
Personally I'd take Feytouched. You get 2 free spells (one of which is Silvery Barbs) that you can cast once per day for free as well as use your spell slots and you get a +1 ASI. Fathomless Warlock can use this spell with Evard's Black Tentacles to cause creatures that succeed their STR/DEX checks (those that are trapped by the tentacles) to potentially remain trapped for a turn.
@@Robbieagray I agree I would also take it via touched. Also gaining access to an additional spell in Misty step and then being able to cast each of these spells once without burning a spell slot is incredible
I really think none of this would be an issue if it only affected attack rolls and ability checks. The fact that it affects saving throws as well makes me feel like it should be something different. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the trigger was when someone makes an ability check attack water saving through, not just succeeds on it. They would still be disadvantaged, but then you would be committing to it before you even know they would have failed in the first place without you wasting your first level spell
Instantly banned Forcing a reroll save of a save or suck spell can be worded like this “If a enemy rolls a successful save vs a save or suck spell, as a reaction cast the spell again on that creature” So it’s basically always as powerful as the spell who’s save you cause them to reroll as long as that spell is save or suck, and because it’s a reaction that’s basically added to your action economy especially on fey touched cleric who has little other use for reactions. Seeing as save or suck single target spells are at their most meta at 4th level, banishment polymorph, resilient sphere, and we see the last of them in the meta with hold monster at 5th (and plane shift offensive sometimes, but past that most spells either work to some degree despite saves or effect a lot of creatures and the best do both) we can say that the concept of rerolling a save, will probably be about as powerful AS a 4th or 5th level spell, because those are the most powerful spells were a reroll is as powerful as a casting! but given the requirement of using that resource as well we can assume it is a 3rd level spell because if we made it 4th you wouldn’t be able to use it on 4th level spells very often and it would be weaker for it so we make it third, which is similar in expense to heightened spell (1 sorcery point generally equals 1 level spell with effects like twinned or casting spells with SP directly) so that’s on the right track for assumptions, Also comparing it to heightened spell 2nd level if being really generous since a level 2 spell slot is created with 3 sorcery points Either way: by comparing it to other abilities, both sorcery points heightened and what the best save or suck spells are, we would assume forcing a save reroll alone to either be level of 2 or 3 depending on if we want to lower the level just to make it powerful. And I would lean to 3 because the reroll isn’t the only benefit and unlike heightened if the target fails the first d20 it cost nothing. Also AM sorcerer can cast it subtly for sorcery points. So level 2 would be cheap on them In conclusion it should be a level 3 spell! How they would over priced a spell by not just 1 level, but a first level spell that should’ve been level 3. I have no idea. But it should have been level 3! That’s how badly it needs a nerf
A bunch of higher CR creatures will randomly have their Magic Resistance trait replaced with Limited Magic Immunity to Silvery Barbs. Totally a fair DM response that doesn't at all indicate just how broken this is.
Something I think is important to mention though you probably already did, is that there’s nothing stopping multiple casters using at after one another! Lots of parties have Bards and Wizards and other casters at the same time anyway. Forget 3x disadvantage how about 4x or JESUS F***ING CHRIST FIVE!?!?!?
Silvery Barbs can force a creature to USE its legendary resistance though. Say they succeed on the roll; yo cast Silvery Barbs, they reroll but the new roll fails. They can choose to take the spell and its effects, or burn a resistance they wouldn't have had to. This spell is still very powerful, just not utterly broken in that regard. This is especially fun if you get them to burn resistances on lower level, but still powerful spells, like Banishment or Polymorph, then hit them with Feeblemind when they HAVE to rely on rolls.
It doesn't change the rules though, You can still only cast 2 spells in a round if one of them is a cantrip, regardless of whether you cast as a reaction or bonus action.
I was going to bring this up, but I scrolled through to see if someone else had and it got buried. Thank you Wintry Wyvern for your content! But your first example of "Cast a spell, and then if they fail, cast THIS spell!" won't work for anything except cantrips. The rule is on page 202, PHB, under 'Bonus Action'. Now, everything you put up is still valid if you are like, helping out an ally caster, because you haven't used your spell that turn. Each individual gets a 'turn' during a single 'round' (PHB p189). That said, I still think this is arguably one of the best spells in the game. Thanks again for posting this video Wintry Wyvern, and bringing more attention to new DnD content!
@@FatherBroth the rule isn't "one leveled spell per round" it's "if you use a bonus action to cast a spell, you cant cast another with your action, and vice versa" so you can absolutely use this spell in conjunction with another because it uses a reaction, not a bonus action
@@Lilikyri Exactly right. There is no rule that says you can't cast two spells in a single turn or round. For example, if you have Action Surge, you have two actions and can cast two spells, which debunks the idea.
... I think it would be a fair spell if it was: 2nd Level, and Just gave Disadvantage (needs to be cast before the die is rolled). With it giving Advantage to an ally, it's still well worth it!
I mean at the very, very least, making it second level would make it less unbalanced, though it still may be one of the best second level spells period
@@zikuanli8483 sure, it's not going to be the perfect spell to use in every situation, (and if your arcane caster is about to be overrun by mooks, the rest of your party is failing at their jobs miserably). You also seem to be missing the fact that it's advantage/disadvantage on Any Roll, you could double the chance that the enemy spellcaster doesn't avoid Your Disintegrate, and insure that the party rogue will have sneak attack on their next roll, when they otherwise wouldn't. Yes, Shield and Counterspell are both important, but you don't need to cast them Every Turn...
this spell, is indeed amazing, though I must say, that Vortex Warp seems really awesome too, being able to teleport your friends out of a dangerous situation, or send ur Barbarian over some hurdle to cut down the enemies support for a lv2 spell. It is a shame that it takes an action, but it would too strong otherwise.
Honestly, even though it’s an objectively strong spell, I think the online reaction is a bit overblown. It may just be a first level slot, but spell slots are precious resources to balance around. Using it to force a reroll on a save means you’re using 2 spell slots on one creature for one effect. Plus, it isn’t until higher levels that you really have low level slots to spare, so it’s a fast way to burn through your slots. Using your reaction means you can’t use stuff like Shield or Uncanny Dodge, which could save your characters life far more often than negating a crit can. And I think you’re going to be hard pressed to find a DM that says this spell overrides Legendary Resistance, as those are pretty clearly written as ‘ignore the roll, save.’
While 1st level spells are quite good, like Shield, this is far too easily abusable. A Bard or Sorcerer (or 67% of classes with this spell) is likely going to dip Warlock, thus insuring they have a disposable first level every rest. Couple with Fey Touched giving a once per day freebie, and you have a serious problem. Reactions aren't nearly good enough to warrant "missing out" when this delivers such incredibly high value. Think about it, even if they STILL succeed you just gave someone advantage. That's like if Guiding Bolt still applied the rider when you miss. Even Fortune's Favor is a 2nd level spell. Silvery Barbs effectively grants the Lucky feat, but its more powerful even at the cost of slots. Its not Astral Self monk here, the online reaction is surprisingly valid this time.
@@larstollefsen1236 I feel like your scenario is a little doomsday-esque. Bards and Sorcerers are already a common thing to dip Warlock into, and Fey Touched is already known as a top tier feat. But multiclassing requires you to balance when you get what from 2 separate classes, and no feat is ever guaranteed to be taken on account of how few characters ever get especially while multiclassing/DM disapproves something. Having both isn’t exactly a small order. Unless you went V Human/Custom Lineage, it’s a minimum of level 5 to get going, which is the first half of most campaigns. You asked me to think about if the secondary effect of Guiding Bolt applied even if you missed, which is a valid point. But still, if someone was willing to burn 2 slots to ensure an effect took place, and let’s not kid ourselves, the reroll is the real effect we’re here for, would you ban the spell they were trying to stick? Unlikely. But I have a funny feeling you’d allow someone to Counterspell someone else Counterspelling the spell they’re casting, be it Polymorph or Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern or whatever. So is this really that much different? Keep in mind, using this on every successful save will burn through your slots faster than can really be justified. Like, I’m not saying it isn’t a strong spell. It objectively is. I’m just saying, at least wait until it’s been tried out a few times before banning it, as so many DMs online are saying they will. For gods sake, the spell isn’t even officially out yet and people are already saying no
@@deadpoolrwbyfan8419 I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Fey Touched means any class can cast it. The Bard and Sorcerer would just take it and use the one Warlock slot to get a "freebie" every rest. The issue is in having a party of 5, and all five of them took it because of course they can. If it was a 2nd level spell I wouldn't instantly ban it as that would be some kind of balanced, but its not. For your point of Counterspell, for years I've house ruled that you can only use a reaction spell while casting if your current spell does not share a component with the reaction. (Somatic in this case for counterspell.) However yes this is "really that much different". You cannot compare a 1st to a 3rd as being 'equally disposable'. A third could have been any number of powerful spells while a first... Shield? Absorb Elements? It just doesn't line up. Not to mention you could effectively use Silvery Barbs to duplicate Cutting Words. So yea, its not even out yet but if you have any grasp of game design that spell just can't happen. Pre-nerf Healing Spirit is better balanced then this.
Just stumbled across your channel and just love it. Adorable avatar that matches your speaking voice and great information! Much love for this and hope you keep it up! 😊
I find this spell to be great...on offense. Forcing a reroll on a successful save is incredibly powerful, but at what cost? You spend a reaction and a spell slot to force a reroll on a single d20 roll and grant an ally (possibly yourself) a reroll. This means you open yourself quite wide for repercussions when enemies single you out. No Shield spell. No Absorb Elements. No Counterspell.
Perspective for anyone taking this spell as “imbalanced”: there are newer players who don’t know the full extent of what classes do, how spellcasting mechanics work, and who don’t go to RUclips to learn as much as they can about the game. If your players are not theory-crafting sleuths it is unlikely they will look through this sourcebook. You should be prioritizing fun at your game table and then maybe encouraging them to actually get a player handbook of their own. This spell is not what’s going to ruin a newer Dungeon Master’s game unless player(s) abuse its mechanics. If you are having difficulty challenging your players when they have a spell like this, you have a couple options. My favorite response: Most spellcasting enemy creatures now also have this spell. ;)
That's what I thought the moment I saw it. "Oh enemies are gonna have this more than players" Just have 2 enemy wizards they can bounce around the reroll and buff on each other.
This is a great take! Only the hardened and jaded optimizers (like myself lol) know the real power of something like this, but for new players, they might enjoy it at face value :D And yes, even since the Strixhaven Silverquill UA, I've always visualized it as part of a villain's toolkit. >:)
I think its pretty cruel to use against players as well. A lvl1 spell? Every BBEG with an already high spell save will have a couple of minions with this spell. Failing every save against the BBEG? That's a recepy for a tpk. They shouldn't have made it a lvl1
@@WintryRPG Thanks, and failing that, you can always communicate out of game. But the villain toolkit is the big takeaway for me yeah. Appreciate the video. Happy Dragon Age Day!
As a DM, that is not a first level spell- it’s a THIRD. I shall place it right next to counterspell where it actually belongs in the spell tiers. “Screw you, try again” definitely deserves a third level spell slot, or at the very least a second level slot.
Increase the burn through rate on legendary resistances, while increasing your allies chance of succeeding give the paladin or rogue this and things will die quicker.
It's not as OP as you think, anyone who has played a counterspell character will tell you that spell slot economy is goddamn real. Reaction usage is also real. If your little wizard keeps using this, start pushing them off cliffs and remind them that feather fall is a reaction too.
NERF HAMMER!! I think by making it a second level Spell, potentially dropping the second half of the effect (or nerfing it a little), and specifying that it grants disadvantage vs a reroll could fix this.
Yeah no, I think I’m gonna ban this one lol. Great idea, I love more supportive spells rather than the same old Fireball or Eldlitch Blast every turn, but when a first level spell reads like something I’d write on a super OP NPC sheet, something went wrong here.
At my table, I don't allow the "super advantage" and "super disadvantage" clauses of features like Lucky or, now, Silvery Barbs, since they totally mess with bounded accuracy. Once the roll is made, the other die goes away, and then if a reroll feature is used like Lucky or this spell, the choice is between the original outcome and the new d20 rolled. That 3rd d20 isn't part of the equation anymore. That solves the problem of turning advantage against a creature at my table, but even then the spell is still really good. As for the legendary resistance bit, I'm in the Treantmonk camp for the judgement call on it-the automatic success still applies no matter what's used to challenge it. I haven't made a judgement call on the power level of this spell yet with the first two points in mind, since none of my players are of a class that can currently access it, but my gut reaction is to just make it a 2nd-level spell. It prevents dipping into it with fey-touched or multiclassing, and makes it so you're spending more valuable resources if you really want to spam it on a high-priority target.
Another fact, since its on the sorcerer spell list, it also qualifies for the aberrent dragonmark feat as well, which would give any martial (or caster) a CON based cantrip and 1 of these every short rest.
It already qualifies for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, no reason why the whole party can't use it one after the other till the encounter is completely trivialised. Also Abberant mind sorcerers can swap this into their psionic spell list when they and cast it with a single sourcery point from level 6 and then they can ignore the verbal component too for luck. And every single 18th level wizard will have this at will for no cost with spell mastery.
You might wanna redo the video. It’s been stated that this spell does not work against legendary resistance the way illustrated in the video. It’s still a good spell but that one mechanic is important to remember.
6:42 you say that you can use Silvery Barbs to counter legendary resistance. This is in direct contrast with Sage Advice related to Silvery Barbs. "Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?" "No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success." Edit: I see this has already been addressed, good work Wintry Wyvern!
I'm allowing this spell, but it is level 2 spell now. Also, my ruling with Legendary Resistance, is once the legendary creature chooses to succeed, you can make him reroll it all you want and it won't change a thing. It will have to pick the "lower roll" and then its Legendary Resistance will still continue to function as normal.
I'm putting it at level 3 because i have 2 Wizards in my group and once they reach level 18 (and they will) they'd both have the option to spam this thing at will. Also I've already put a disclaimer that this doesn't overwrite Legendary Resistance in any way. It's still hecking potent for a level 3 spell but not nearly as broken.
@@wayneslater5531 putting it at level 3 does unintentionally buff divination Wizards because expert divination is a thing and they'll absolutely spend spell slots on this but let's face it, they could already decide to upcast the spell to make it work with expert divination and between portent and Silvery Barbs, divination wizards already are an S+ subclass. Plus at the very least, if the spell is defaulted to 3rd level, a diviner can't use it to regain 1st level slots they would then use to cast more Silvery Barbs (so it balances out my original point).
A first level spell slot to give you even more benefit than the lucky feat is absolutely absurd. I would definitely ban it because if you don't, every party member should take this if it's available or take Fae touched and take it, and something overpowered to the point of being a necessity to keep up just isn't fun for me
A few other notes. This spell targeting a creature within 60ft allows you to affect a creature attacking you or an ally, meaning it's essentially a slightly more temporary shield spell that you can use on an ally. A few other possible overlooked uses is, messing with an enemies concentration check, mess with an initiative roll, a counter spell roll, or even make an enemy reroll a critical hit against an ally most likely removing the crit. This spell also gives another creature within 60ft advantage on their next attack, save or check. Meaning you can help an ally with any of the aformentioned things. Or you can give the rogue advantage on their attack so they are guaranteed to get their sneak attack. Or give any elves with elven accuracy their triple advantage on their next attack.
I would add the line "This spell has no effect upon creatures that have used Legendary Resistance to succeed on a saving throw". I would also make it second level to keep it from being so "dippable". The second part of the spell is really not such a big deal for me.
My DM is having me completely change my character's class and abilities for story reasons and I was struggling to pick how to build a whole new level 11 character but this video solidly puts me with the bard route, this seems like a lot of fun to mess with and I kinda glossed over it when I was reading through spells. I wouldn't be surprised if my DM banned it, he's already weary of mtg supplements and I tend to build strong characters accidentally lol. Also I found you a little bit ago and your video quality in terms of editing, writing and pacing is amazing, it's nice to have a new creator to look forward to seeing content from
Honestly, I think the main nerf I would do to this would be the spell level. Instead of nerfing the power, I would make it a bit more taxing on when it comes online and what other spells it needs to contend with. Off the bat, I'm thinking of treating it like a 3rd lvl spell rather than a 1st. I don't know of many reaction spells that high, and it would have to contend with other build staples. I also choose this not because of the op reroll, but also the advantage that helps things swing further. If I find that cuts out use of the spell a little too much, then I might drop it back down to 2nd lvl spell status. But at 1st lvl, this spell becomes a requirement that will dominate most picks and uses. It's no fun if you pick a wizard and only cast one spell the entire time, after all.
Personally I’m thinking about changing the spell to be 2nd level, to be more in line with the others. But my games are at a higher level power scale anyhow, so maybe it’s not all that bad. Who knows lol. It will require some experimentation.
My DM is very generous and seems excited to let me play the spell. And I am already positioned to maximize the use of the spell as an Order Cleric 1/Clockwork Soul X character (Silvery Barbs works so well with Voice of Authority - as if it needed more). I'm going to do my best to have fun with the spell to save my friends from crits and grant them extra attacks with Voice of Authority, but I'm going to try to hold back on full abuse for fear of it getting banned. My first plan is to just not use it to force rerolls on saves. Hopefully that is enough to be reasonable.
Owlin having a built in detect magic was too overpowered But the ability to basically 'lolno' any saving throw AND give an ally advantage on their next one, for a first level spell slot is totally fine GJ Wizards
Imagine a first level spell that could, as a reaction, restore one spell slot of any level. Silvery barbs would still be more powerful because of action economy.
As a Dm, I may not let players have this spell in some of my games, but for newbies just learning to play I would totally let them having this. However, as a player, I am taking this if I can. All utility players and min/maxer's rejoice!
Wil likely let it fly at my table, there is little opetunity to use Reactions for casting classes during early levels and its nice to have an impactful option that can help aid the party or make that spell save more likely to succeed. Nothing is worse that being ineffective and haveing acess to this so when your having a bad day you can up your chances is a good thing. Though i wholehartedly agree that the bonus to allys its a bit much considering everything else it has going for it. And if i were to make any changes it would likely be that the spell gets dicected into several spells. 1 to target Attack rolls 1 to target Ability checks 1 to target Saveing throws With the bonus to allies attack roll, saveing throws & ability checks for 1 minute likely being attached to the abiltiy checks one as such an occourance is less likely and thus less consistantly spamable and also less potent.
Fix: It's second level spell and doesn't override Leg. Resistance. Also "the creature must use the new roll" regardless of the previous ones (so no double disadvantage bullcrap) Easy fix. If still overtuned the duration of the buff goes down to 1 round instead.
In my understanding the way Legendary Resistance works, the success on the save isn't because of the die roll- the save already failed, and the resource is consumed. Forcing a reroll doesn't override that feature because the feature explicitly ignores the failed die roll to trigger in the first place.
Seems easy to fix. Just add "once per long rest" to the beginning. Now it's a great, strong spell that has to be used at the correct time in a day. Add once per short rest to it for newer players or players who are not so quick thinking, to make it stronger than OPLR, but still a finite resource. I honestly only see it as being an issue because of its unlimited (well almost. I mean it's once per turn. I suppose that's a limit...) availability.
The new Sage Advice update's got a clear answer on Legendary Resistance! \o/
"Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance? No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success."
Oh thank god, that's the case. Tones down the power of this spell a tad (still strong).
@summer mermaidstar why are things always a me.
Honestly I've been in playing 2 different characters with silvery barbs and it Honestly only is worth it in very niche cases I would still rather take something like shield over it. But idk maybe that just my opinion.
That's what I thought. My thought was that they can reroll, but legendary resistance still applies. Even if the reroll is a 1, they still succeed.
Thank you for the shout out! I'll give you a shout out after work. Theres a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooott of stuff with this spell like its seriously complex and some stuff is just really hard to quantify.
You can do it Kobold, we believe in you because you are the probability genius.
This spell is emblematic of the reason I prefer non-D&D games more and more.
As a player, you think you want this spell and it will make the game more fun. Because it is so good it will overshadowed everything distracting from cinematic moments. This best choice makes more interesting choices less choose-able.
Guidance is similar. I used to love it and now realize it is the worst cantrip in the game. Not mechanically but in terms of it's impact on cinematic focus and banal ubiquity.
Doesn’t work if you can’t see the target which is a major weakness. There are a lot of ways to avoid sight.
While I call him out for using "super disadvantage" math on it after the fact of casting the spell, it is not entirely wrong. You just need to make sure you're doing this calculation before any dice are rolled and with the commitment that you WILL cast the spell if the target makes the save. But he still need sto be careful to calculate the odds on advantage vs. this spell more carefully, because advantage still skews the triggering die roll's result higher, making the expected value of the triple higher, as well. i.e., advantage makes it more likely you'll cast the spell, and once you cast the spell, the odds of THAT roll failing are the same as any singleton roll's odds.
I agree... with you and bards just became better.
Theres 2 things i really in love. Enchantment and it usually suck. Becouse theres things that if the guy fail the save he gets put out for many rounds or permanently. Enchantment allow roll every round making it usually bad. And this make it more plausible.
Second thing its necromancy and it suck too.
Also as a Lv 1 enchantment spell, you can take it with they Feytouched feat. Meaning any class can cast this spell, for free, once per long rest.
If you read fey touched you'll also notice that the chosen spell can still be casted using spell slots of the appropiate level.....
or Magic Initiate, if the Fey flavor doesn’t work as well with your character
And as an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, you can substitute Arms of Hadar or Dissonant Whispers as one of your Psionic Spells. This means that at sixth level, you could cast it with sorcery points without the need of the verbal component, so even Silence can’t stop you.
Though then again, there is Metamagic for that.
Put it on a rouge. Now you have advantage on your next attack due to this reaction. I repeat: you can give yourself advantage on your next attack, as a reaction.
@@Magus_Union Now compare it to True Strike, another spell that can grant advantage on the next attack.
The "Nope-o-mancer"
Halfling: Lucky, w/(feat)Lucky, Divination wizard: Portent *multi-classed with* Lore Bard: Cutting words. Prepare (lvl1)Shield, (lvl1)Absorb Elements, (lvl3)Counterspell. Consider using (lvl1)Bane, along with ANY effect that bestows disadvantage on the D20.
NOW: add this spell to the mix. Don't forget to apologize to the DM during character creation.
Bill Murray bumbles his way through DND once again
Now make it your villain.
There is another feat called Bountiful Luck for Halflings. They can use the Lucky Racial Feature to others around you within 30 feet. This uses a reaction, but again another "Nope" to the mix.
This sounds like a blue Magic the gathering player
halfing level 1 peace cleric divination wizard with the lucky feat. the peace cleric ability is basically bless that you can throw on multiple party members and lasts ten minutes. stack a bless on top of that, now start using silvery barbs, then portent, then lucky dice, give guidance out of combat, keep gift of alacrity going to always be first in initiative.
you might as well stop using dice as a group because no player is ever failing a roll again.
One thing worth noting on the legendary resistance bit: whether or not the spell would override legendary resistance, I still think it's worth your while to bait out a legendary resistance check with a first level spell. By the time you're fighting monsters with legendary resistances, you'll have the spell slots to burn, giving you huge value.
As for the legendary resistance thing I look at it like this it's like this you cast a spell it fails it uses legendary resistance you use silver Barbs It uses legendary resistance this one your party member uses party member uses the spell again it uses legendary resistance if it Then your 3rd party member uses the spell again and you effectively gotten rid of all the creatures legendary resistances on one turn Then the rest of the spellcasters in your party obliterate the thing with spells Especially considering at this point you can now have given at least 3 of your party members advantage because of the 2nd half of the spell
@@fenrismarks876 There is another interpretation. Silvery barbs doesn´t impose a new saving throw, just make you roll a new d20 for the same saving throw. If a creature uses legendary resistance, success on the save no matter the result of the roll because the creature choose to succed instead. Treantmonk have a really good video explaining this. Make sure to ask to your dm how is going to rule it.
@@adriel8498 Even if, for the sake of argument, it made you reroll the d20, I'd still rule that Legendary Resistance still succeeds. LR doesn't care about the die roll- it doesn't say the die roll succeeds. It says If X fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead. So, even if you reroll, regardless of the outcome, the creature still succeeds the saving throw against that spell/effect.
@@jimmyrepine8952 yeah, that's what I was trying to say
As a DM I would rule that silvery barbs does not affect a creature using legendary resistance RAW. "... when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself *succeeds* on an attack roll, ability check, or a saving throw." Legendary resistance, "If [creature] fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead" is not used unless the creature fails the saving throw, and then decides to use it. Silvery barbs does not force a fail, it forces a reroll; but legendary resistance is not a roll, it's just a blanket success limited in times per day. If the creature succeeded on the original saving throw roll, silvery barbs could then force a reroll, potentially burning a legendary resistance if the reroll was a fail.
RAI legendary resistance and legendary actions are in place to help out powerful monsters that are typically encountered alone and therefore are at a disadvantage vs a party's action economy. In 3.5e dragons, high level demons, liches etc were often a letdown in practice because they'd get at most one turn before the party used its high level abilities, spells, etc and wiped the thing in one or two rounds. LR and LA help with both the save-or-die stuff and the action economy, having a 1st level spell essentially nullify LR does not make the game more fun. If you want it to work that way in your game I think it would be better off at lvl 3 where it competes with a lot of other excellent spells and can't be cast at-will by a high level wizard.
Also note that other abilities that change the results of monster/player rolls retroactively, (like the chronurgy and divination abilities) do not work on legendary resistance and are limited to a static 2/day.
Hypothetically speaking, even if we simply assume you cannot use Legendary resistance on this using silvery barbs, you used your *reaction* and a *first level spell slot* to force the boss to use one of of it's VERY VALUABLE, 3 SILVER BULLETS. If that's not a win, you're doing it wrong.
Using Silvery Barbs to force a legendary resistance use is actually one of the strongest uses of this spell.
Straight up nearly guarantees a burn of a legendary resistance on a reaction. Bard tried to hold person BBEG? Fighter just forced BBEG to burn a res. Wizard tried to hold person BBEG? Now the Bard forced the BBEG to burn a res. It’s so strong and so easy to get you can have the whole party have it and burn legendary res quite easily and then force a strong effect or fight ending effect on a BBEG.
In my opinion, it should be a general rule of thumb that any ability that forces someone to reroll a saving throw is pretty likely to be absolutely busted.
Also, the Pack Tactics shout-out makes me smile fr :D I love the content from both of you
"But Kobold....."
This and Lucky feat are on the exact same level of overpoweredness. Let that sink in, a 1st level spell on a reaction is just as good if not better than one of the most broken feats in the game.
My biggest point with things that players can do is that their enimies can do it too. So if they start abusing and using a spell a lot their enimies will learn and start using it too. The world is dynamic make it feel like they should be careful with their actions from a none game design perspective. Maybe they only use it in combats with no survivers.
I think the Legendary Resistance part doesn't work in practice. Legendary doesn't require a roll. So no matter what is rolled the save succeeds. Orcas could drop a nat 1 on the triggered roll, but it doesn't override the success.
Legendary Resistance does require a roll. "If Orcus FAILS a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead."
He must first roll to see if he fails in the first place.
Edit: also it goes to a trigger thing. The spell reacts to a success. It doesn't specify a rolled success or not. It says when they succeed they reroll. The roll must be finalized and decided as a success, after that they make you reroll. It's not that they are making you roll another dice in the same roll. It's a completely different roll. They used their legendary action to succeed the first roll, and the second roll is a SEPARATE roll against the same effect, and thus the Legendary Resistance is no longer in effect. Just like how any advantages and disadvantages exclusive to a single roll would not carry over.
@@ElijahForLong WotC clarified that your power gamer reading was wrong. Legendary Resistance is that you just succeed no matter what you rolled. Forcing them to reroll doesn't matter because it is still the same save and they already succeeded on the save.
"Best" spell in DnD is hands down "Plant Growth". Plus 33 percent crops in a few mile radius is a huge deal. Control Weather is good too, to water crops during a drought or ensure dry weather during harvest.
From lower levels, Cure Disease, Invisible Servant, Create Food and Water, Remove Poison and Cure Woulds are all good spells.
I wish more players thought this way :D
It's amazing how few spells there are that make life for the masses better.
Plant Growth. Sure.
But how many spells are saved for the signature block of their target's obituary?
I think it's a conspiracy by big Hogwarts!/Blackstaff!/Insert magocracy here!
Of course the peeps in power don't want to empower the serfs and peasants! They deliberately remove spells that help the masses from all records, so no wizard or bard ever learns of them! They strike deals with fey and fiends to bind the divine powers from helping the masses, in favour of only supporting an elitist few!
Rise up! Reject the magocracy!
No joke plant growth (If there are plants in the area you are fighting) IS super busted 100ft radius 150ft range you can exclude any area you want, instantanious no concentration, 4 ft of move to move 1 ft, not difficult terrain so it stacks with difficult terrain, etc Its pretty legit.
@@WintryRPG When you run a campaign where country-wide famine is commonplace they'd better be lol
Tell me you're a druid player, without telling me you're a druid player. 🙂
Awesome vid! Loved the Orcus bit! Awesome editing as always.
Definitely a bit out of my comfort zone on this one, but worth the effort ^-^
The problem here is that spellcaster monsters get this as well. Imagine a boss with 5 spellcasting sorcerer minions who all have this spell.
thanks for giving me the idea
Haha I asked my DM if I can use this as my Spellmastery Boon spell so he had to look it up. Looks like we're gonna have to fight alot of minion wizards for the next boss fight
A boss with 5 spellcasting sorcerer minions who _only_ have this spell. They just stand around while the party fights the boss yelling "Hey fighter, you hit like my sister! Anybody else hear a cat yowling, or is that just the bard?" and then turn around to the boss and give him a thumbs up "You're doing great Harry, these chumps got nothing on you."
Fea court of spectators constantly casting this spell against your party fighting w/e enemies the court deems hilarious for the party to deal with at the moment. Mechanically impactful jeering
"Did you know that Silvery Barbs is the strongest spell?"
Everyone: "Yes"
Also abberant mind sorcerer's can cast their subclass spells with a one to one sorcery points, and can change out those spells with enchantment and divination spells. So you could make this spell one in your list and only cast it for a single sorcerery point!
It would also be automatically Subtle cast, just to add insult to injury! 😸
Love the new style of presentation! Looks very professional and is very engaging. Keep up the good work
Loved this video! Orcus popping in to say hi with the extra level drama was such a delight.
Spell as written is nuts and should be 4th level. I think the best way to change the spell is to start by stripping out the advantage part, limiting the 1st level version to disadvantage on their next attack which doesn't already have disadvantage, and changing it to a bonus action. Upcasts will then allow it to work on ability checks at 2nd level, and saving throws at 3rd. As a bonus action spell can only be cast in combination a cantrip so a co-operative settup with another caster is required to be especially useful.
Legendary resistance ignores the dice roll and just succeeds, which is mega strong. And spending a 1st level spell slot to make Orcus waste his 3 LR is really good
ALSO, because you can take it with the Fey Touched feat you can have this on literally any class you want.
FOR FREE
😍👍I just got there binge-watching all your videos and I absolutely love them. I do a little art, story and background stuff for a friend that DM's so I love to learn more and new things about DND to help.
an aberatemind sorcerer replacing arms of Hadar with silvery barbs, and the lucky fear with heightened spell meta magic., a chronologist wizard with silvery barbs and the luckey feat
never heard of these spells before, but he convinced me silvery barbs is on my banded spells list now, so is wither and bloom and I need to think about the vortex one.
Absolutely loved this video. You're so nice to listen to and you explain everything really well, along with your visual cues and fun avatar. This is the first video of yours that I've seen (shout out to Pack Tactics for shouting you out) and I'm already subscribing!
Keep up the awesome work! :D
It's definitely the best value spell in game at the moment.
It could stand to be nerfed either take away the advantage or raise the spell level. 3 might be too high of a spell level though.
I personally don't think it's too broken to play. It's definitely nice to have another way to influence fights through magic especially something without a save or concentration. But rerolls are not success's or failures and if they succeeded before they're still pretty likely to succeed again (at least it's not pathfinder). Granted it stacks so that really makes it powerful that might be another acceptable way to nerf it by preventing "super disadvantage."
The major problem with this spell is how it can suck a lot of the fun out of the game for the DM. You're already supposed to lose now being unable to get off the cool features (which was already hard/rare) is going to make combat tougher to enjoy. I'd check with your DM before taking this spell.
Also you cant use it on stealth or social situations without being able to see the 1 other creature+within 60ft+and use subtle spell on it or else suprise they know you cast magic on them prepare for hostilities. So it only really breaks combat.
Seriously we need metamagic rods in 5e a feat is too much for a once a day casting of subtle spell.
This spell is NUTS. I’ve really got to assess whether or not I’d allow it in my game. I love the other spells from this book though!
I'd just nerf it
@@slamsM6 Wise move. Make it a level 3 spell and it's done.
Let's take 2 uses of Lucky (arguably one of the best feats in the game) and put them into a 1st level spell. Yay! That'll be no problem, right?
I've been wanting such a spell for years. So sad that what they delivered is so broken
How could you want a spell like that and not have it end up incredibly broken?
Can we also point out it is purely a verbal component spell making it incredibly easy to cast? Adding a used up, gold value material component could also be used to balance the spell.
A material component would end up making it an action, as you'd need to whip out the component to use the spell (or touch, or whatever other flavour text would be added to the spell to justify the material component). At least, that would be my thinking on that one.
For the spell to be *that* useful (as in, useful enough to be considered one of the top spells in the game as a whole), it has to be a reaction. Bear in mind that you only get 1 reaction per round.
With that said, can you imagine the carnage you could cause if everyone in your party dipped at least one level of Bard, Sorceror or Wizard, just to get that spell? I'm imagining it right now, and it's glorious :D
@@MrSpleenboy could you add a somatic component and it still be a reaction
@@MrSpleenboy soul cafe is a reaction spell with a material component
@@AsgarIronsword Don't see why not, so long as it's quick?
@@evaahh9584 Shows what I know! I'm not an expert on 5e, when I play D&D the DM I play with still uses a mix of 3e and 3.5...
Out of interest, what is the material component for soul cafe?
Oh Man, I was taken aback with the quality of your visuals, structure, coherence of the explanations and overall aesthetic of the video. +1 sub.
My assumption is it is "Disadvantage" but you don't have to burn the spell slot until after they succeed. What will be interesting is (1) "Does WotC increase the spell level/errata it?" and (2) "How JC replies/replied to the mountains of tweets I am sure he has received?"
Either way, it is a very strong spell, especially at first level.
It's advanced Disadvantage. It's basically a new mechanic that's highly available to nearly every class.
It's actually closer to a recasting. With disadvantage, you roll two and take the lower. With Silvery Barbs, they already succeeded so you force them to re-roll that success and try again. They already succeeded, so you are just trying again. Know what also tries again? Waiting a turn and casting the spell again. The power of this basically giving an option to 'upgrade' a first level slot to a higher level slot... paying a reaction and any potential disadvantage they might have for a real re-cast.
But I mean, bestow curse a creature, then try to banish with that disadvantage, and if they succeed, silver barbs to basically try banish again but a straight roll... and if they still remain, try again next turn... until you run out of 4th levels. But hey, sharing is caring... you can silvery barb when I try to banish the creature.
I never realized how good this spell was going to be; from my favorite college no less! Great video.
I’d be in the camp of this not working on legendary resistance just because it feels like it may get an FAQ that it doesn’t work that way against legendary resistance.
Well, RAI - yes. But if RAW is so badly written that we need to look at RAI - it’s bad writing. Of course it’s easy to assume that everybody will not be using it with a Legendary Resistance, but, you know, there is always that guy at the table. It’s easy to just add exception to the wording, so why not just add it to ease a game for so many DMs?
this spell sounds great for the ol' lucky divination wizard, another tool to say "no actually the dice will do what _I_ want thank you very much"
Yeeeeaaaah...this is way too OP. Honestly it would still be a fantastic spell if it was just disadvantage on an *attack roll* and advantage to another person. Like it could be a ranged support shield spell which could be freaking great. But automatically giving disadvantage to a saving throw as a reaction?? There's a reason it's hard to do that and usually involves already failing a different saving throw first (like in bestow curse)
Numerically it's weaker than bless. Oh sure, you give something a -5 and someone a +5, once. Bless gives about +7.5 a round, over 3 or 4 rounds of an average combat. It also benefits from upcasting.
@@ChazTheYouthful so what you mean to say is...we need to stack this new spell with Bless, and Bestow Curse...and the enemy will never hit us...
@@dreamwolf7302 you forgot peace cleric
@@ChazTheYouthful Yes, as a DM, i encourage this kind of thinking frankly.
Sure, it might derail my campaign, but it shows my players are actually spending time thinking about what they will do.,
Yeah, at the VERY LEAST this should be 2nd level, but it’s still insane. This is a grave cleric on steroids, and is one spell. I’ve never been the kind of DM that makes bans in a game, but holy hell this makes me want to.
This is better than lucky, especially at higher levels. this spell is super good and a min/maxing asset.
The second half of the spell should have been an up cast option. Being re-roll and giving advantage all at level 1 is nuts. I'd make the second half be at third level spell slot use
6:15 Actually that's not how it works with legendary resistance. Legendary resistance makes the save a success it doesn't do squat about the rolls. So you can use silvery barbs after someone uses legendary resistance but it is still a success because any saved which you used legendary resistance on is a success no matter how many times you reroll the underlying dice.
It's still the most powerful spell in the game.
6:45 Yes they would reroll then they would again autosucceed because it's the same save and they already used legendary resistance.
7:00 Sure you can argue all you want but the wording of legendary resistance doesn't mention the word roll so you would be wrong.
100% agree with this
Correct. Legendary resistance isn't a roll. Silver Barbs only effects rolls.
I dont know why people are treating this like its ambiguous. It's quite clear. If they choose to succeed on the saving throw, they succeeded. Not the roll, the throw.
I agree. However even without impacting Legendary resistance this is still an OP spell for first level!
@@RichardDurham Oh yeah it's still broken as all hell.
Honestly I think that WotC should have made more feats and that Silver Barbs should have been a feat available to members of the college of Silverquill. I'm genuinely kind of disappointed with the way they went with the new "feats"/backgrounds but I'm curious to see what you think.
Imagine the combination of mind Sliver and silvery barbs essentially granting disadvantage and they'll have -d4 to their roll in addition combine that with an effect that actually grants disadvantage against spell saves for example Shadow sorcerer's hound of ill omen a source of damage and disadvantage for a low cost (also you can summon multiple you aren't limited to one so you could stockpile a couple during a fight to keep the effect up longer) the enemy would essentially have double disadvantage and a -d4 to the save
Better yet, be an Eloquence Bard and subtract a Bardic Inspiration die with your bonus action. That's -1d4, -1d6, (up to -1d12 instead,) and a reroll to take the lowest. That's before disadvantage and Portent, which can also be added onto things to reduce the roll even lower.
Why have I never seen this channel before? This is incredible quality. Keep this up!
That really is a solid replacement option for Shield. Has an awesome ebb and flow control style too it.
Impose "Disadvantage" on a roll, AFTER YOU SEE THE RESULT WHICH IS MASSIVE, and then you can double down on the punishment as setup for your Save or Die control spells or if you're not in range, out of slots or generous setup your allies next turn!!! It's such a great spell and as a DM I'm 100% approving it in my games may even incentive spell castors to take it since it creates teamwork dynamics more fluidly.
After bringing up the Magic Initiate feat and Fey Touched I did become hesitant about keeping the spell as is but the more I think about the less of a problem it is too me. I run a general 3 Social Encounter 3 Combat Encounter type game every session and if they're burning all their spells on this reaction spell my group will run out of options later on down the road. This spell is powerful but not too overpowered in my opinion if you're following the recommended DMing encounters of 3 - 5 combat a session. On top of it being a bait in mob encounters against low health enemies since you're using 2 spells to kill 1 small creature when you can let someone tank the hit and finish them off with 1 spell (HP is a resource too you can convert to spell slots in a way).
A strong spell in single target encounters, social or combat, but balanced out if you mix in mobs and enemy mages. Not to mention Puzzles lol, can't do the Advantage shuffle on a riddle.
One problem I see:
Have your friend hit you (should hit if your a wizard lol). Use your reaction to trigger this spell, and there you are, just used this spell to give you advantage on any ability check out of combat
@@MehrGills I don't see the problem. Makes for a funny slapped some sense into the PC moment. The roleplay and fun would more than make up for it as well as the stigma I'd impose if they abused it about a masochistic party of adventurers. Surely running into a Tavern telling tales of their silliness will make them curve the abuse of it if not I'll enjoy making fun of them.
@@singularity1130 sure, it's funny and the rp is kinda neat, but that's broken. It's a second level spell to give advantage on a specific type of checks, it's a debated cantrip that gives a d4 for the next check. A first level spell that gives advantage to effectively every check out of combat is insane, especially with wizards who have Arcane recovery to get back many of those spell slots over a short rest
@@MehrGills I hate to say its important to a tables health online or off you're able to communicate concern. If you're worried your players will abuse it then you need to speak over the table and clear up this concern, removing players who object, in order to maintain a fun and workable environment. If I couldn't balance social encounters around this thing then I would say so and ask the PCs to limit themselves or set a Homebrew rule that we'd all be able to agree upon.
I'm a forever DM and this kind of problem is ever present and I address it as an adult to my players expecting them same with them. They understand the fun stops if I can't make decent encounters (most are investigative players so RP and Social Encounters are important) and I've already talked too them about Silvery Barbs. So far I see no issues but when they arise I'll speak up and they'll limit themselves if they see it as too much as well so they've told me.
That type of game design comes down to: Talk with Players. It's not our job to gimp our players or make the perfect encounter to encompass all potential spells in the game; impossible. It's our job to set the scene and create intractable pieces for our players to explore and grow as they write their story. If SB would remove options for growth and RP then they lose out and I'd be sure to tell them how limited and lacking in challenge the world would become. I make it a habit to tell them how many NPCs, Items and Encounters they missed to keep them on their toes and looking in future sessions; I'm sure once we're done with our current campaign if the number grows staggeringly so they'll cut back on it.
I had a Witch character in my CoS campaign. This was of course a homebrew class with homebrew spells. One of which could, as a reaction, force a creature to make a Wisdom saving throw whenever a creature takes the attack, disengage, dodge or dash action. If it failed, you can choose which course of action the creature takes. It was OP to say the least.
Silvery Barb reminds me of that spell and because of my experince with said spell, I will not allow it in my games
Yes, I would allow this spell at my table. This consumes a reaction, leaving what is most likely a squishy caster without their shield spell, or counterspell. It's also something I could just as easily give to an enemy, and have it used on the party as well. I really don't see this as that big of a deal, as I know there will be ways to play around it, and it adds a challenge to both sides of the table with smart play.
Except it janks up the elegant and effective advantage/disadvantage rules. And it does so just to sell digital copies of the book. Every power player on Beyond is gonna hafta have this. Its a petty, bureaucratic arms race. Packaged in a lame Harry Potter knockoff.
Well That's pretty shortsighted. Do you add shield and counter spell to every caster they face?
If yes, how do you keep a party from being angry in battle.
I cast a high level spell-counter that
I hit him with great weapon master-no you didn't.
This happening every fight with someone packing slots, which almost all things do after you reach mid tier, will frustrate players a lot.
@@werewolfjedi38
Goodies are only for the players?
You kind of sound like yer threatening a strike if the rule is generally applied.
There are no ways around it though, short of anti magic and blowing a 3rd level spell slot to counterspell a 1st level spell… and even THEN, you know a first level spell is broken asf if someone deems it necessary to forgo their reaction and spend a 3rd level spell slot to nullify it… and for some reason, you take this reaction AFTER you see a successful roll, so I don’t know how you’re even supposed to roleplay this as a level 1 spell.
@@J0eMega You can use the lucky feat to counter it. Additionally everyone is talking like this guarantees a failed roll. It makes you roll at disadvantage for a single save oh gosh so terrifying. Depending on your build and/or party make up disadvantage on a save is meaningless.
I saw a post about this spell being really good but I did not know it. I know know it exists, that spell is nuts
This spell is basically like offensive counterspell and i love it my god. Magic initiate got very powerful. But warlocks should totally have a mask of many faces style invocation that gives them access to at least a few of these per day. My god it's amazing.
You are so right having only three of your party able to force rerolls of the same saving throw is not enough. But never fear when your warlock casts polymorph their friends can force the target to reroll until it sticks. Every time. In every encounter. You will never have to fight anything again. Happy gaming.
Personally I'd take Feytouched. You get 2 free spells (one of which is Silvery Barbs) that you can cast once per day for free as well as use your spell slots and you get a +1 ASI. Fathomless Warlock can use this spell with Evard's Black Tentacles to cause creatures that succeed their STR/DEX checks (those that are trapped by the tentacles) to potentially remain trapped for a turn.
@@Robbieagray I agree I would also take it via touched. Also gaining access to an additional spell in Misty step and then being able to cast each of these spells once without burning a spell slot is incredible
I like how you mentioned the counter argument to the silvery barbs vs legendary resistance in a non-biased way despite ultimately disagreeing with it.
I really think none of this would be an issue if it only affected attack rolls and ability checks. The fact that it affects saving throws as well makes me feel like it should be something different. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the trigger was when someone makes an ability check attack water saving through, not just succeeds on it. They would still be disadvantaged, but then you would be committing to it before you even know they would have failed in the first place without you wasting your first level spell
Some of the highest quality D&D content I've seen in a while! Keep it up!
Instantly banned
Forcing a reroll save of a save or suck spell can be worded like this “If a enemy rolls a successful save vs a save or suck spell, as a reaction cast the spell again on that creature”
So it’s basically always as powerful as the spell who’s save you cause them to reroll as long as that spell is save or suck, and because it’s a reaction that’s basically added to your action economy especially on fey touched cleric who has little other use for reactions.
Seeing as save or suck single target spells are at their most meta at 4th level, banishment polymorph, resilient sphere, and we see the last of them in the meta with hold monster at 5th (and plane shift offensive sometimes, but past that most spells either work to some degree despite saves or effect a lot of creatures and the best do both) we can say that the concept of rerolling a save, will probably be about as powerful AS a 4th or 5th level spell, because those are the most powerful spells were a reroll is as powerful as a casting!
but given the requirement of using that resource as well we can assume it is a 3rd level spell because if we made it 4th you wouldn’t be able to use it on 4th level spells very often and it would be weaker for it so we make it third, which is similar in expense to heightened spell (1 sorcery point generally equals 1 level spell with effects like twinned or casting spells with SP directly) so that’s on the right track for assumptions,
Also comparing it to heightened spell 2nd level if being really generous since a level 2 spell slot is created with 3 sorcery points
Either way: by comparing it to other abilities, both sorcery points heightened and what the best save or suck spells are, we would assume forcing a save reroll alone to either be level of 2 or 3 depending on if we want to lower the level just to make it powerful. And I would lean to 3 because the reroll isn’t the only benefit and unlike heightened if the target fails the first d20 it cost nothing.
Also AM sorcerer can cast it subtly for sorcery points. So level 2 would be cheap on them
In conclusion it should be a level 3 spell!
How they would over priced a spell by not just 1 level, but a first level spell that should’ve been level 3. I have no idea. But it should have been level 3! That’s how badly it needs a nerf
A bunch of higher CR creatures will randomly have their Magic Resistance trait replaced with Limited Magic Immunity to Silvery Barbs. Totally a fair DM response that doesn't at all indicate just how broken this is.
Something I think is important to mention though you probably already did, is that there’s nothing stopping multiple casters using at after one another! Lots of parties have Bards and Wizards and other casters at the same time anyway. Forget 3x disadvantage how about 4x or JESUS F***ING CHRIST FIVE!?!?!?
The party of Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Lore Bard, and Arcana Cleric: "allow us to introduce ourselves"
It is still a resource - if a party wants to blow 5 first level spells in 1 round of combat I would let them.
@@Daedalus_Dragon past a certain point, first level spells cease to be thought of as a resource.
@@Kianwan Yes, but you also have other things that you are doing with your reaction, and enemies have mush better saves
@@Daedalus_Dragon EK, Bards and Clerics generally do not have anything else they are reliably doing with their reaction.
Silvery Barbs can force a creature to USE its legendary resistance though. Say they succeed on the roll; yo cast Silvery Barbs, they reroll but the new roll fails. They can choose to take the spell and its effects, or burn a resistance they wouldn't have had to. This spell is still very powerful, just not utterly broken in that regard. This is especially fun if you get them to burn resistances on lower level, but still powerful spells, like Banishment or Polymorph, then hit them with Feeblemind when they HAVE to rely on rolls.
It doesn't change the rules though, You can still only cast 2 spells in a round if one of them is a cantrip, regardless of whether you cast as a reaction or bonus action.
I was going to bring this up, but I scrolled through to see if someone else had and it got buried. Thank you Wintry Wyvern for your content! But your first example of "Cast a spell, and then if they fail, cast THIS spell!" won't work for anything except cantrips. The rule is on page 202, PHB, under 'Bonus Action'. Now, everything you put up is still valid if you are like, helping out an ally caster, because you haven't used your spell that turn. Each individual gets a 'turn' during a single 'round' (PHB p189).
That said, I still think this is arguably one of the best spells in the game. Thanks again for posting this video Wintry Wyvern, and bringing more attention to new DnD content!
@@FatherBroth the rule isn't "one leveled spell per round" it's "if you use a bonus action to cast a spell, you cant cast another with your action, and vice versa" so you can absolutely use this spell in conjunction with another because it uses a reaction, not a bonus action
@@Lilikyri Exactly right. There is no rule that says you can't cast two spells in a single turn or round. For example, if you have Action Surge, you have two actions and can cast two spells, which debunks the idea.
I just discovered your RUclips channel and I have to say I really love your intro with the slick logo animation.
Very nice.
... I think it would be a fair spell if it was:
2nd Level, and
Just gave Disadvantage (needs to be cast before the die is rolled).
With it giving Advantage to an ally, it's still well worth it!
I mean at the very, very least, making it second level would make it less unbalanced, though it still may be one of the best second level spells period
@@zikuanli8483 sure, it's not going to be the perfect spell to use in every situation, (and if your arcane caster is about to be overrun by mooks, the rest of your party is failing at their jobs miserably).
You also seem to be missing the fact that it's advantage/disadvantage on Any Roll, you could double the chance that the enemy spellcaster doesn't avoid Your Disintegrate, and insure that the party rogue will have sneak attack on their next roll, when they otherwise wouldn't.
Yes, Shield and Counterspell are both important, but you don't need to cast them Every Turn...
I love how a sorcerer has to spend a whopping 3 sorcery points to force a creature to get disadvantage.
this spell, is indeed amazing, though I must say, that Vortex Warp seems really awesome too, being able to teleport your friends out of a dangerous situation, or send ur Barbarian over some hurdle to cut down the enemies support for a lv2 spell. It is a shame that it takes an action, but it would too strong otherwise.
"how to get your DM to amp up the monster difficulty 101"
*take silvery barbs*
Honestly, even though it’s an objectively strong spell, I think the online reaction is a bit overblown. It may just be a first level slot, but spell slots are precious resources to balance around. Using it to force a reroll on a save means you’re using 2 spell slots on one creature for one effect. Plus, it isn’t until higher levels that you really have low level slots to spare, so it’s a fast way to burn through your slots. Using your reaction means you can’t use stuff like Shield or Uncanny Dodge, which could save your characters life far more often than negating a crit can. And I think you’re going to be hard pressed to find a DM that says this spell overrides Legendary Resistance, as those are pretty clearly written as ‘ignore the roll, save.’
While 1st level spells are quite good, like Shield, this is far too easily abusable. A Bard or Sorcerer (or 67% of classes with this spell) is likely going to dip Warlock, thus insuring they have a disposable first level every rest. Couple with Fey Touched giving a once per day freebie, and you have a serious problem. Reactions aren't nearly good enough to warrant "missing out" when this delivers such incredibly high value. Think about it, even if they STILL succeed you just gave someone advantage. That's like if Guiding Bolt still applied the rider when you miss. Even Fortune's Favor is a 2nd level spell. Silvery Barbs effectively grants the Lucky feat, but its more powerful even at the cost of slots.
Its not Astral Self monk here, the online reaction is surprisingly valid this time.
@@larstollefsen1236 I feel like your scenario is a little doomsday-esque. Bards and Sorcerers are already a common thing to dip Warlock into, and Fey Touched is already known as a top tier feat. But multiclassing requires you to balance when you get what from 2 separate classes, and no feat is ever guaranteed to be taken on account of how few characters ever get especially while multiclassing/DM disapproves something. Having both isn’t exactly a small order. Unless you went V Human/Custom Lineage, it’s a minimum of level 5 to get going, which is the first half of most campaigns. You asked me to think about if the secondary effect of Guiding Bolt applied even if you missed, which is a valid point. But still, if someone was willing to burn 2 slots to ensure an effect took place, and let’s not kid ourselves, the reroll is the real effect we’re here for, would you ban the spell they were trying to stick? Unlikely. But I have a funny feeling you’d allow someone to Counterspell someone else Counterspelling the spell they’re casting, be it Polymorph or Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern or whatever. So is this really that much different? Keep in mind, using this on every successful save will burn through your slots faster than can really be justified.
Like, I’m not saying it isn’t a strong spell. It objectively is. I’m just saying, at least wait until it’s been tried out a few times before banning it, as so many DMs online are saying they will. For gods sake, the spell isn’t even officially out yet and people are already saying no
@@deadpoolrwbyfan8419 I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Fey Touched means any class can cast it. The Bard and Sorcerer would just take it and use the one Warlock slot to get a "freebie" every rest. The issue is in having a party of 5, and all five of them took it because of course they can. If it was a 2nd level spell I wouldn't instantly ban it as that would be some kind of balanced, but its not.
For your point of Counterspell, for years I've house ruled that you can only use a reaction spell while casting if your current spell does not share a component with the reaction. (Somatic in this case for counterspell.) However yes this is "really that much different". You cannot compare a 1st to a 3rd as being 'equally disposable'. A third could have been any number of powerful spells while a first... Shield? Absorb Elements? It just doesn't line up. Not to mention you could effectively use Silvery Barbs to duplicate Cutting Words.
So yea, its not even out yet but if you have any grasp of game design that spell just can't happen. Pre-nerf Healing Spirit is better balanced then this.
Just stumbled across your channel and just love it. Adorable avatar that matches your speaking voice and great information!
Much love for this and hope you keep it up! 😊
I find this spell to be great...on offense. Forcing a reroll on a successful save is incredibly powerful, but at what cost?
You spend a reaction and a spell slot to force a reroll on a single d20 roll and grant an ally (possibly yourself) a reroll. This means you open yourself quite wide for repercussions when enemies single you out. No Shield spell. No Absorb Elements. No Counterspell.
Yeah, but you use it for polymorph. Doesn't matter what it opens you up to because it ends the fight instantly.
BRUH..
You are absolutely a legend! I hope you get 1M views on this.
Perspective for anyone taking this spell as “imbalanced”: there are newer players who don’t know the full extent of what classes do, how spellcasting mechanics work, and who don’t go to RUclips to learn as much as they can about the game. If your players are not theory-crafting sleuths it is unlikely they will look through this sourcebook. You should be prioritizing fun at your game table and then maybe encouraging them to actually get a player handbook of their own.
This spell is not what’s going to ruin a newer Dungeon Master’s game unless player(s) abuse its mechanics. If you are having difficulty challenging your players when they have a spell like this, you have a couple options.
My favorite response: Most spellcasting enemy creatures now also have this spell. ;)
That's what I thought the moment I saw it. "Oh enemies are gonna have this more than players" Just have 2 enemy wizards they can bounce around the reroll and buff on each other.
This is a great take! Only the hardened and jaded optimizers (like myself lol) know the real power of something like this, but for new players, they might enjoy it at face value :D
And yes, even since the Strixhaven Silverquill UA, I've always visualized it as part of a villain's toolkit. >:)
I think its pretty cruel to use against players as well. A lvl1 spell? Every BBEG with an already high spell save will have a couple of minions with this spell. Failing every save against the BBEG? That's a recepy for a tpk. They shouldn't have made it a lvl1
@@WintryRPG Thanks, and failing that, you can always communicate out of game. But the villain toolkit is the big takeaway for me yeah. Appreciate the video. Happy Dragon Age Day!
@@WintryRPG alongside counterspelling healing spells?
As a DM, that is not a first level spell- it’s a THIRD. I shall place it right next to counterspell where it actually belongs in the spell tiers. “Screw you, try again” definitely deserves a third level spell slot, or at the very least a second level slot.
As another DM, Agreed.
Legendary doesn’t roll a die, it just succeeds without any roll needed. So barbs doesn’t force a roll on something that never needed it.
There's no way this won't be nerfed at some point, or homebrewed around. It seems broken.
Increase the burn through rate on legendary resistances, while increasing your allies chance of succeeding give the paladin or rogue this and things will die quicker.
It's easily a 3rd or 4th level spell that you cast with a 1st level slot.
It's not as OP as you think, anyone who has played a counterspell character will tell you that spell slot economy is goddamn real. Reaction usage is also real. If your little wizard keeps using this, start pushing them off cliffs and remind them that feather fall is a reaction too.
NERF HAMMER!!
I think by making it a second level Spell, potentially dropping the second half of the effect (or nerfing it a little), and specifying that it grants disadvantage vs a reroll could fix this.
Yeah no, I think I’m gonna ban this one lol. Great idea, I love more supportive spells rather than the same old Fireball or Eldlitch Blast every turn, but when a first level spell reads like something I’d write on a super OP NPC sheet, something went wrong here.
id say if you bump up the spell to lvl 3 or 4 i think id consider this one, but the bard of eloquence is already powerful enough without this monster.
The second you said fhe creature must roll again i already felt its op
I feel like this is a spell that players will love and DM's will hate
Until the DM used it on them and makes them fail their feeble mind saves.
BuT kObOlD...wait a minute this isn't kobold. Proceed...
At my table, I don't allow the "super advantage" and "super disadvantage" clauses of features like Lucky or, now, Silvery Barbs, since they totally mess with bounded accuracy. Once the roll is made, the other die goes away, and then if a reroll feature is used like Lucky or this spell, the choice is between the original outcome and the new d20 rolled. That 3rd d20 isn't part of the equation anymore. That solves the problem of turning advantage against a creature at my table, but even then the spell is still really good.
As for the legendary resistance bit, I'm in the Treantmonk camp for the judgement call on it-the automatic success still applies no matter what's used to challenge it.
I haven't made a judgement call on the power level of this spell yet with the first two points in mind, since none of my players are of a class that can currently access it, but my gut reaction is to just make it a 2nd-level spell. It prevents dipping into it with fey-touched or multiclassing, and makes it so you're spending more valuable resources if you really want to spam it on a high-priority target.
Another fact, since its on the sorcerer spell list, it also qualifies for the aberrent dragonmark feat as well, which would give any martial (or caster) a CON based cantrip and 1 of these every short rest.
It already qualifies for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, no reason why the whole party can't use it one after the other till the encounter is completely trivialised. Also Abberant mind sorcerers can swap this into their psionic spell list when they and cast it with a single sourcery point from level 6 and then they can ignore the verbal component too for luck. And every single 18th level wizard will have this at will for no cost with spell mastery.
You might wanna redo the video. It’s been stated that this spell does not work against legendary resistance the way illustrated in the video. It’s still a good spell but that one mechanic is important to remember.
6:42 you say that you can use Silvery Barbs to counter legendary resistance. This is in direct contrast with Sage Advice related to Silvery Barbs.
"Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?"
"No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success."
Edit: I see this has already been addressed, good work Wintry Wyvern!
I'm allowing this spell, but it is level 2 spell now.
Also, my ruling with Legendary Resistance, is once the legendary creature chooses to succeed, you can make him reroll it all you want and it won't change a thing. It will have to pick the "lower roll" and then its Legendary Resistance will still continue to function as normal.
I'm putting it at level 3 because i have 2 Wizards in my group and once they reach level 18 (and they will) they'd both have the option to spam this thing at will. Also I've already put a disclaimer that this doesn't overwrite Legendary Resistance in any way. It's still hecking potent for a level 3 spell but not nearly as broken.
@@haerdalis84 My games don't usually reach 18, but that is a fantastic point!
@@wayneslater5531 putting it at level 3 does unintentionally buff divination Wizards because expert divination is a thing and they'll absolutely spend spell slots on this but let's face it, they could already decide to upcast the spell to make it work with expert divination and between portent and Silvery Barbs, divination wizards already are an S+ subclass. Plus at the very least, if the spell is defaulted to 3rd level, a diviner can't use it to regain 1st level slots they would then use to cast more Silvery Barbs (so it balances out my original point).
I really like your avatar and your sence of humor, I might as well stick around at this rate :d.
A first level spell slot to give you even more benefit than the lucky feat is absolutely absurd. I would definitely ban it because if you don't, every party member should take this if it's available or take Fae touched and take it, and something overpowered to the point of being a necessity to keep up just isn't fun for me
A few other notes. This spell targeting a creature within 60ft allows you to affect a creature attacking you or an ally, meaning it's essentially a slightly more temporary shield spell that you can use on an ally.
A few other possible overlooked uses is, messing with an enemies concentration check, mess with an initiative roll, a counter spell roll, or even make an enemy reroll a critical hit against an ally most likely removing the crit.
This spell also gives another creature within 60ft advantage on their next attack, save or check. Meaning you can help an ally with any of the aformentioned things.
Or you can give the rogue advantage on their attack so they are guaranteed to get their sneak attack. Or give any elves with elven accuracy their triple advantage on their next attack.
I would add the line "This spell has no effect upon creatures that have used Legendary Resistance to succeed on a saving throw". I would also make it second level to keep it from being so "dippable". The second part of the spell is really not such a big deal for me.
Always great to see you man
My DM is having me completely change my character's class and abilities for story reasons and I was struggling to pick how to build a whole new level 11 character but this video solidly puts me with the bard route, this seems like a lot of fun to mess with and I kinda glossed over it when I was reading through spells. I wouldn't be surprised if my DM banned it, he's already weary of mtg supplements and I tend to build strong characters accidentally lol.
Also I found you a little bit ago and your video quality in terms of editing, writing and pacing is amazing, it's nice to have a new creator to look forward to seeing content from
"If you're a DM and you've got smart, critical thinking players..." and you wonder why I'm never gonna need to nerf the spell.
Honestly, I think the main nerf I would do to this would be the spell level. Instead of nerfing the power, I would make it a bit more taxing on when it comes online and what other spells it needs to contend with. Off the bat, I'm thinking of treating it like a 3rd lvl spell rather than a 1st. I don't know of many reaction spells that high, and it would have to contend with other build staples. I also choose this not because of the op reroll, but also the advantage that helps things swing further. If I find that cuts out use of the spell a little too much, then I might drop it back down to 2nd lvl spell status. But at 1st lvl, this spell becomes a requirement that will dominate most picks and uses. It's no fun if you pick a wizard and only cast one spell the entire time, after all.
My first thought was 4th but 3rd sounds about right after reading your thoughts on it.
BAN. This thing is really, really good. Too good.
I will say though, my boss spellcasters on the other hand...
Personally I’m thinking about changing the spell to be 2nd level, to be more in line with the others.
But my games are at a higher level power scale anyhow, so maybe it’s not all that bad. Who knows lol. It will require some experimentation.
WAIT WAIT WAIT, Wizards can spam it with their unlimited spell ability....
My DM is very generous and seems excited to let me play the spell. And I am already positioned to maximize the use of the spell as an Order Cleric 1/Clockwork Soul X character (Silvery Barbs works so well with Voice of Authority - as if it needed more).
I'm going to do my best to have fun with the spell to save my friends from crits and grant them extra attacks with Voice of Authority, but I'm going to try to hold back on full abuse for fear of it getting banned. My first plan is to just not use it to force rerolls on saves. Hopefully that is enough to be reasonable.
Gosh I love your videos. You're my editing muse.
Owlin having a built in detect magic was too overpowered
But the ability to basically 'lolno' any saving throw AND give an ally advantage on their next one, for a first level spell slot is totally fine
GJ Wizards
I think what was "broken" for Owlin was their ability to recover if they were falling. But yeah I agree
That is so powerful for a first level my god
Imagine a first level spell that could, as a reaction, restore one spell slot of any level. Silvery barbs would still be more powerful because of action economy.
As a Dm, I may not let players have this spell in some of my games, but for newbies just learning to play I would totally let them having this. However, as a player, I am taking this if I can. All utility players and min/maxer's rejoice!
Wil likely let it fly at my table, there is little opetunity to use Reactions for casting classes during early levels and its nice to have an impactful option that can help aid the party or make that spell save more likely to succeed.
Nothing is worse that being ineffective and haveing acess to this so when your having a bad day you can up your chances is a good thing.
Though i wholehartedly agree that the bonus to allys its a bit much considering everything else it has going for it.
And if i were to make any changes it would likely be that the spell gets dicected into several spells.
1 to target Attack rolls
1 to target Ability checks
1 to target Saveing throws
With the bonus to allies attack roll, saveing throws & ability checks for 1 minute likely being attached to the abiltiy checks one as such an occourance is less likely and thus less consistantly spamable and also less potent.
The new legendary reaction eater spell that also gives the rogue sneak attack on every turn
Fix: It's second level spell and doesn't override Leg. Resistance. Also "the creature must use the new roll" regardless of the previous ones (so no double disadvantage bullcrap)
Easy fix. If still overtuned the duration of the buff goes down to 1 round instead.
In my understanding the way Legendary Resistance works, the success on the save isn't because of the die roll- the save already failed, and the resource is consumed. Forcing a reroll doesn't override that feature because the feature explicitly ignores the failed die roll to trigger in the first place.
Seems easy to fix. Just add "once per long rest" to the beginning. Now it's a great, strong spell that has to be used at the correct time in a day.
Add once per short rest to it for newer players or players who are not so quick thinking, to make it stronger than OPLR, but still a finite resource. I honestly only see it as being an issue because of its unlimited (well almost. I mean it's once per turn. I suppose that's a limit...) availability.
Not a single existing spell works like that, those would be abilities outside of spellslots
@@alkatron768 your point is?
Easy fix for this spell. If your game isn't set in Strixhaven, no Strixhaven spells!