i d also point out, logging of the logs, the logs themselves are just a portion of the appraisal being calculated. What the wood ends up being worth per cubic metre You have logs being excluded, such as wildlife area, tree patches, old growth allotment, leave seed trees, strip cut partitions. You have distance logs (km) being ferried to appraisal point, the time it takes because of forest service road speed limits of loaded / empty hauling, you have the wood grade of course, and the wood % rot excluded. Waste and resides also factor in, post harvest.
Here in NB, harvest of land by the major players seldom includes the factors you are mentioning. I've seen them leave a perimeter around raptor nests, but even the setbacks around watercourses have been decreased in recent years. A few years ago I was offered a stumpage agreement on two woodlots I own. There was no allowance for anything to be left behind. It was a flat out clearcut deal. I know a good many people that have taken that route, and they're left with a field of stumps and brush.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Within 2 years, a licensee is required to re-plant complete clear-cut harvests with biogeoclimatic approved stocking standard desirable and/or acceptable species. This includes strip/partial selection cut too. Most of these approved/acceptable species would include doug fir, Sx (white and engel and sitka) although in north interior (real north black sp too) lasiocarpa (abies) lodgepole and ponderosa pine, and larch / hemlock. I am not coastal, so l exclude alot of things like the big balsams This is important, because licensees are held to obligations within 5yrs, silviculture green-up. And free growing, 10-20 years. Also, after harvests waste and residues surveys are needed, and dispersal of CWD (coarse woods) for soil revitalization and wildlife habitat This isnt done in the sense of home-steads, procuring local timber and non-timber products....but rather industrial forestry to meet province/nation, international timber supply needs.
@@demetrioshristovski4518 i know that in Sweden and maybe some of the other Scandinavian countries, when a block of land ,including private, is cut, the government withholds a portion until proper reforestation is carried out. I think the withheld funds can be used to pay for seedlings. I had a chat with a gentleman from Sweden that was here demonstrating harvesters years ago. A good plan in my mind, although here it would raise the hackles of the fut and run crowd.
just out of curiosity, because how it is done in BC is far different and we have an timber appraisal manuals which are followed: Who should foot the bill of cut timber appraised weight? Seems a bias towards the woodlot owner. But what of what the Mill actually gets? - should it be the land parcel (woodlot) owner trying to get more, appraising cut timber and additionally weighing the wet/frozen/soiled - should it be the mill/licensee, trying to pay less, appraising cut timber when dry and lighter Not sure what message is trying to get conveyed here, getting the most bang for your buck? But in doing so, give the mill the sleight of hand? In reality, shouldnt wood be appraised on wood? Not on any additional soil, moisture, ice, sap that contributes to weight just after harvest?
The issue we see here is that , for example, in 2004 a tandem load of logs scaled by Bangor Log Rule and delivered to the mill would pay me about $1600.00. At that time, we had numerous mills operating in the province, and most if not all stick scaled. Today, with one major player in the business and all mills buying by weight scale, that same truckload of logs will pay me between $800-900 after trucking. Meanwhile, lumber prices in the building supply stores have quadrupled, chainsaws have doubled in price, fuel has gone from around .75/ liter to $1.68/liter, chain oil has jumped from $7/ gallon to $19/ gallon. The mills are winning, the landowner is losing. Plain and simple.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Mills are winning? Since when? Canada has seen massive mill closures since the 1990s. Major licensees have been pulling out of small towns throughout the West, dooming them in their job markets and people, with their mortgages/homes/families. Licensees still pay for fuel, chainsaws, maintenance, road use agreements. Do you know a sawmill pays a general work labourer a wage upward of 31.00/hourly? This is an extraordinarily high wage for near unskilled-labour, basic material handling. The licensee pays that. Then we have First Nations reconciliation, wildlife and riparian tree retention areas, leave tree basal area specification, old growth area, migratory bird / ungulate range / grizzly habitat government action orders biting into Crown land and timber supply areas, biodiversity / plant rangeland availability / and visual objectives biting into timber supply areas. Absorbent high road-sharing fees with oil and gas, mining, telecomm industry. sigh... the mills are not winning. They are crying. If anything, Woodlot Owners face less of these regulations and government orders than the licensee and mill do.
@@demetrioshristovski4518 your viewpoint is West Coast centric and doesn't reflect the issues New Brunswick and other east coast woodlot owners have faced in the past 25 years. This Woodlot Management series is dedicated to helping newcomers to the game get their footing in small scale forestry, not to promote west coast industrial forestry practices. Thank you for your input.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Fair enough. But as a professional, I am governed by a code of ethics. My code of practice highlights that I practice in BC, under the association of ABCFP, but the ABCFP is regulated Federally, as one province of CIF. CIF regulates forestry throughout canada. About ethics though, not as a person to show partial treatment to any of: Crown Land tenure, mill or licensee, to a christmas tree permit owner, a tree farm license holder, a woodlot license owner, a firewood collection permit owner and seller....but rather seeing this as a wood issue. What is the wood worth? Not particles attached to the wood when wet, or absent when dry. Its my duty as a professional, amongst other professionals, to cruise and scale logs, and produce stumpage on a dry weighted product, which more closely resembles wood entering processing - rather than additionally capturing irrelevant constituents which add weight to the sale of the product. (ice/soil/debris/insect larvae/moisture content) You are looking out for WL owners and small scale startups - okay. But nevertheless, its a stated bias? I am not looking out for anyone, any party - but rather scientifically measuring the true value of wood? A mill, or a persons mill saw, isnt after soil, ice, moisture content, Etc.....correct? Why should any party benefit from it attached to a sale? On another note, this is why we regulate professionals. I have nothing against your channel and its videos, its fine content. And I am here watching it? I use it to learn of forestry (to which I havent had means to learn of maritime forestry before) If you dont want me watching it, that is fine? But I think its pertinent, the help you provide to other woodlot owners and small time startups, you should also disclose more often it isnt the advice from a certified professional.
this is just, sigh.....tremendously backwards. East coast is just, my goodness. And for the life of me, i don't understand why it is. - You appraise your forest stocking standards with an appropriate BEC zone or equivalent (stand type) - You decide on prism BAF prior to cruise, you grid your cruise plan. - You complete timber cruise, only 3 BAF prism changes permitted per stand unit. Cruising done per province w/ Timber Cruise Manual? I dont know if there are province equivalent - Timber cruise data included in final cruise appraisal, submitted in appraisal summary prior to any harvest - Appraisal summary rejected or accepted, or conditionally accepted, harvesting follows through. - A body, like province forest service or ministry, or even Licensee internally done, perform check cruise. Pass or fail. - Harvesting takes place, decking on side of the road may have logs present for up to 2 years - Wood from decking, is trucked and driven to POA, an appraisal point, to be scaled. Timber scaling done by Timber Scale Manual, every province has different Timber Scaler certification. - Scaled wood taken to the mill, for a further internal scale, which really is meaningless, but done anyway. Wood then kiln dried according to species. For example, black spruce or lasiocarpa (very similar to balsam fir) are different kiln times than doug fir or larch or ponderosa pine - Only after these processes, are stumpage made physical and logging dividends presented. Stumpage maybe assessed prior, but isnt presented until all steps completed. BC and Alberta are a light year ahead of the east. And its baffling. I have spent time looking through the northern interior forests of Northern Ont, and it isnt so much different than BC (not the coast) The jack pine, white spruce, red pine, black spruce, tamarack, aspen forests scene throughout boreal resembles the lodgepole, white / engel spruce, black spruce, larch / tamarack, aspen / birch forests of interior BC. Where is the disconnect exactly?
All good points. I know the major player here used aerial projection software that analyzes the overall stand. The software uses satellite imagery and can identify softwood, hardwood, geographical features, relative tree size, age, etc. Unfortunately, harvest on Crown Land, and by transference, private land management plans, is aimed at producing three species of trees: white pine, red spruce, and a new variant of Scandinavian spruce. All other species are tiered below the Big Three. For a private woodlot owner to receive funds from the woodlot association ( from check off rates deducted from the sale of wood) the chosen silviculture program must be geared towards producing the Big Three trees. Do I agree with this? No. Do we have a choice when faced with the present day monopoly? No. Will I forever be a rebel who works his land with an eye toward local ecology and maintaining a natural stand Acadian forest? Yes. Your BC forest management plan has a lot bigger players than we have here, and has a lot of input from environmental groups that are strangely quiet on the east coast. Different ball field, different rules. Please feel welcome to continue commenting. It's good for viewers to get a viewpoint from the professional scientific dide of forestry, something I am not.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Crown land here use aforementioned stocking standards for bio-zone repopulation. I am not an landscape ecologist or plant botanist, I dont know the generation seen ramifications of pure stands other than whats basically interpreted, which industry try to push for and desire. But yes, biodiversity is something our province forest LEG pushes for. I have toured some of IRVlNGs plantation stands, Norway Spruce, yes? It was my understanding yellow birch also a crop species for studs? White / black spruce, jack pine, tamarack are not major marketed spp east coast? I dont know the extent of rust damage on white pine out east, but west coast finding white pine suitable for any sort of mill is extremely difficult. No problem, by the way. My old man, was a steel machine centre (milling) and lathe operator for 5 decades. When I helped out as a kid and teen with firewood and wood-working, he thought I d make a fine carpenter some day. We had about 30Acres just outside greater toronto. But it turned I enrolled into forestry, the 90s highschool system were large advocates for university pushes, in that students MUST go to university
@@demetrioshristovski4518 in the 70s there was a big movement toward planting Jack pine, but once the initial plantations were ready to harvest, they found the wood inferior for pulp because it created a brownish color that was only suitable for cardboard. I've never heard of yellow birch being used for stud. There was a real good market here for veneer 20 years ago. I had one 9 foot yellow birch log that went to Austria. I got over $900 for that stick. However, that market has dried up considerably. It also led to a lot of piracy, but that's another story.
Good tip, thanks
i d also point out, logging of the logs, the logs themselves are just a portion of the appraisal being calculated. What the wood ends up being worth per cubic metre
You have logs being excluded, such as wildlife area, tree patches, old growth allotment, leave seed trees, strip cut partitions. You have distance logs (km) being ferried to appraisal point, the time it takes because of forest service road speed limits of loaded / empty hauling, you have the wood grade of course, and the wood % rot excluded. Waste and resides also factor in, post harvest.
Here in NB, harvest of land by the major players seldom includes the factors you are mentioning. I've seen them leave a perimeter around raptor nests, but even the setbacks around watercourses have been decreased in recent years.
A few years ago I was offered a stumpage agreement on two woodlots I own. There was no allowance for anything to be left behind. It was a flat out clearcut deal. I know a good many people that have taken that route, and they're left with a field of stumps and brush.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Within 2 years, a licensee is required to re-plant complete clear-cut harvests with biogeoclimatic approved stocking standard desirable and/or acceptable species. This includes strip/partial selection cut too. Most of these approved/acceptable species would include doug fir, Sx (white and engel and sitka) although in north interior (real north black sp too) lasiocarpa (abies) lodgepole and ponderosa pine, and larch / hemlock. I am not coastal, so l exclude alot of things like the big balsams
This is important, because licensees are held to obligations within 5yrs, silviculture green-up. And free growing, 10-20 years.
Also, after harvests waste and residues surveys are needed, and dispersal of CWD (coarse woods) for soil revitalization and wildlife habitat
This isnt done in the sense of home-steads, procuring local timber and non-timber products....but rather industrial forestry to meet province/nation, international timber supply needs.
@@demetrioshristovski4518 i know that in Sweden and maybe some of the other Scandinavian countries, when a block of land ,including private, is cut, the government withholds a portion until proper reforestation is carried out. I think the withheld funds can be used to pay for seedlings. I had a chat with a gentleman from Sweden that was here demonstrating harvesters years ago.
A good plan in my mind, although here it would raise the hackles of the fut and run crowd.
just out of curiosity, because how it is done in BC is far different and we have an timber appraisal manuals which are followed:
Who should foot the bill of cut timber appraised weight? Seems a bias towards the woodlot owner. But what of what the Mill actually gets?
- should it be the land parcel (woodlot) owner trying to get more, appraising cut timber and additionally weighing the wet/frozen/soiled
- should it be the mill/licensee, trying to pay less, appraising cut timber when dry and lighter
Not sure what message is trying to get conveyed here, getting the most bang for your buck? But in doing so, give the mill the sleight of hand? In reality, shouldnt wood be appraised on wood? Not on any additional soil, moisture, ice, sap that contributes to weight just after harvest?
The issue we see here is that , for example, in 2004 a tandem load of logs scaled by Bangor Log Rule and delivered to the mill would pay me about $1600.00. At that time, we had numerous mills operating in the province, and most if not all stick scaled.
Today, with one major player in the business and all mills buying by weight scale, that same truckload of logs will pay me between $800-900 after trucking.
Meanwhile, lumber prices in the building supply stores have quadrupled, chainsaws have doubled in price, fuel has gone from around .75/ liter to $1.68/liter, chain oil has jumped from $7/ gallon to $19/ gallon.
The mills are winning, the landowner is losing. Plain and simple.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Mills are winning? Since when? Canada has seen massive mill closures since the 1990s. Major licensees have been pulling out of small towns throughout the West, dooming them in their job markets and people, with their mortgages/homes/families.
Licensees still pay for fuel, chainsaws, maintenance, road use agreements. Do you know a sawmill pays a general work labourer a wage upward of 31.00/hourly? This is an extraordinarily high wage for near unskilled-labour, basic material handling. The licensee pays that.
Then we have First Nations reconciliation, wildlife and riparian tree retention areas, leave tree basal area specification, old growth area, migratory bird / ungulate range / grizzly habitat government action orders biting into Crown land and timber supply areas, biodiversity / plant rangeland availability / and visual objectives biting into timber supply areas. Absorbent high road-sharing fees with oil and gas, mining, telecomm industry.
sigh... the mills are not winning. They are crying. If anything, Woodlot Owners face less of these regulations and government orders than the licensee and mill do.
@@demetrioshristovski4518 your viewpoint is West Coast centric and doesn't reflect the issues New Brunswick and other east coast woodlot owners have faced in the past 25 years.
This Woodlot Management series is dedicated to helping newcomers to the game get their footing in small scale forestry, not to promote west coast industrial forestry practices. Thank you for your input.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Fair enough.
But as a professional, I am governed by a code of ethics. My code of practice highlights that I practice in BC, under the association of ABCFP, but the ABCFP is regulated Federally, as one province of CIF. CIF regulates forestry throughout canada. About ethics though, not as a person to show partial treatment to any of: Crown Land tenure, mill or licensee, to a christmas tree permit owner, a tree farm license holder, a woodlot license owner, a firewood collection permit owner and seller....but rather seeing this as a wood issue. What is the wood worth? Not particles attached to the wood when wet, or absent when dry.
Its my duty as a professional, amongst other professionals, to cruise and scale logs, and produce stumpage on a dry weighted product, which more closely resembles wood entering processing - rather than additionally capturing irrelevant constituents which add weight to the sale of the product. (ice/soil/debris/insect larvae/moisture content)
You are looking out for WL owners and small scale startups - okay. But nevertheless, its a stated bias? I am not looking out for anyone, any party - but rather scientifically measuring the true value of wood? A mill, or a persons mill saw, isnt after soil, ice, moisture content, Etc.....correct? Why should any party benefit from it attached to a sale?
On another note, this is why we regulate professionals. I have nothing against your channel and its videos, its fine content. And I am here watching it? I use it to learn of forestry (to which I havent had means to learn of maritime forestry before) If you dont want me watching it, that is fine? But I think its pertinent, the help you provide to other woodlot owners and small time startups, you should also disclose more often it isnt the advice from a certified professional.
22👍nice info 9:35
this is just, sigh.....tremendously backwards. East coast is just, my goodness. And for the life of me, i don't understand why it is.
- You appraise your forest stocking standards with an appropriate BEC zone or equivalent (stand type)
- You decide on prism BAF prior to cruise, you grid your cruise plan.
- You complete timber cruise, only 3 BAF prism changes permitted per stand unit. Cruising done per province w/ Timber Cruise Manual? I dont know if there are province equivalent
- Timber cruise data included in final cruise appraisal, submitted in appraisal summary prior to any harvest
- Appraisal summary rejected or accepted, or conditionally accepted, harvesting follows through.
- A body, like province forest service or ministry, or even Licensee internally done, perform check cruise. Pass or fail.
- Harvesting takes place, decking on side of the road may have logs present for up to 2 years
- Wood from decking, is trucked and driven to POA, an appraisal point, to be scaled. Timber scaling done by Timber Scale Manual, every province has different Timber Scaler certification.
- Scaled wood taken to the mill, for a further internal scale, which really is meaningless, but done anyway. Wood then kiln dried according to species. For example, black spruce or lasiocarpa (very similar to balsam fir) are different kiln times than doug fir or larch or ponderosa pine
- Only after these processes, are stumpage made physical and logging dividends presented. Stumpage maybe assessed prior, but isnt presented until all steps completed.
BC and Alberta are a light year ahead of the east.
And its baffling. I have spent time looking through the northern interior forests of Northern Ont, and it isnt so much different than BC (not the coast) The jack pine, white spruce, red pine, black spruce, tamarack, aspen forests scene throughout boreal resembles the lodgepole, white / engel spruce, black spruce, larch / tamarack, aspen / birch forests of interior BC. Where is the disconnect exactly?
All good points. I know the major player here used aerial projection software that analyzes the overall stand. The software uses satellite imagery and can identify softwood, hardwood, geographical features, relative tree size, age, etc.
Unfortunately, harvest on Crown Land, and by transference, private land management plans, is aimed at producing three species of trees: white pine, red spruce, and a new variant of Scandinavian spruce. All other species are tiered below the Big Three.
For a private woodlot owner to receive funds from the woodlot association ( from check off rates deducted from the sale of wood) the chosen silviculture program must be geared towards producing the Big Three trees.
Do I agree with this? No. Do we have a choice when faced with the present day monopoly? No. Will I forever be a rebel who works his land with an eye toward local ecology and maintaining a natural stand Acadian forest? Yes.
Your BC forest management plan has a lot bigger players than we have here, and has a lot of input from environmental groups that are strangely quiet on the east coast. Different ball field, different rules.
Please feel welcome to continue commenting. It's good for viewers to get a viewpoint from the professional scientific dide of forestry, something I am not.
@@ERLong-ww7yn Crown land here use aforementioned stocking standards for bio-zone repopulation. I am not an landscape ecologist or plant botanist, I dont know the generation seen ramifications of pure stands other than whats basically interpreted, which industry try to push for and desire. But yes, biodiversity is something our province forest LEG pushes for.
I have toured some of IRVlNGs plantation stands, Norway Spruce, yes? It was my understanding yellow birch also a crop species for studs? White / black spruce, jack pine, tamarack are not major marketed spp east coast? I dont know the extent of rust damage on white pine out east, but west coast finding white pine suitable for any sort of mill is extremely difficult.
No problem, by the way. My old man, was a steel machine centre (milling) and lathe operator for 5 decades. When I helped out as a kid and teen with firewood and wood-working, he thought I d make a fine carpenter some day. We had about 30Acres just outside greater toronto. But it turned I enrolled into forestry, the 90s highschool system were large advocates for university pushes, in that students MUST go to university
@@demetrioshristovski4518 in the 70s there was a big movement toward planting Jack pine, but once the initial plantations were ready to harvest, they found the wood inferior for pulp because it created a brownish color that was only suitable for cardboard.
I've never heard of yellow birch being used for stud. There was a real good market here for veneer 20 years ago. I had one 9 foot yellow birch log that went to Austria. I got over $900 for that stick. However, that market has dried up considerably. It also led to a lot of piracy, but that's another story.